06/07/2014 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland

Up to a million public sector workers will strike this week.

It's one of the biggest walk-outs since 2010.

The country's top trade unionist Frances O'Grady and

The Tour de France seems to have cheered him up - just as well

for the Deputy Prime Minister hasn't got much else to smile about.

Nick Clegg joins me live from Sheffield to discuss the

Just over ten weeks until Scotland determines its future.

The man leading the campaign AGAINST independence, Alistair Darling,

The executive business offer as a result of Unionist action. I will be

discussing that with Danny Kennedy and Stephen very.

journalists always ahead of the peleton - Nick Watt,

They'll be tweeting faster than Tour de France cyclists can pedal.

The news is dominated this morning by stories swirling

around allegations of an historic Westminster paedophile ring.

Concern has grown because of the disappearance of a dossier

handed over to the Home Office in 1983, along with over 100 official

files related to it and possibly containing details of historic child

Labour is calling for a public inquiry led by a child protection

But speaking earlier on The Andrew Marr Show this morning

the Education Secretary Michael Gove ruled that out.

The most important thing that we need to do is ensure that the due

process of law pursues those who may be guilty of individual crimes and

we also learn lessons about what may or may not have gone wrong in the

past, but it is also important to emphasise that many of the

allegations that are being made are historic. And what we do now in

order to keep children safer is better and stronger than was the

case when 20 or 30 years ago. Without getting into a boring

tit-for-tat, public inquiry, "yes" or "no"? No. Helen, can the

Government go on resisting calls for a full-scale inquiry? It is very

hard. There are cynical and non-cynical reasons for calling for

an inquiry. The cynical one allows you to say I can't comment on this.

The non-cynical is it manages to get people to air allegations in a way

that is safe. What we saw at the Leveson Inquiry was helpful, people

who felt they had been shut out from justice getting a chance to tell

their side of the story. A public inquiry in this case is a good idea.

Labour have called for a lot of public inquiries. A list was made in

2012 of how many they called for. Not only Savile, but the West Coast

Main Line and breast implants. On this particular issue, the people

don't trust the politicians, they don't trust the police either

because they may have been complicit in a cover-up. They may not trust

the Home Office who we are told some of their officials were mentioned in

the dossier? That is what David Cameron is hanging on to. This is a

matter now because they are alleged criminal activity, it is for the

police to investigate. In that big piece in the Sunday Times, Tim

Shipman reports one of the people making the allegations lives in the

United States making the allegations lives in the

been out to the United States to interview him. The Prime Minister

would say that is how serious the police are taking it. The problem

for the Prime Minister - he police are taking it. The problem

allergic to big public inquiry. His finest moment was his response to

the Bloody Sunday inquiry shortly after he became Prime

inrequest -- that inquiry took 12 years to report. The problem is the

dossier has gone missing, the files have gone missing, more allegations

keep coming out either directly or indirectly. It doesn't look like it

is going to go away? The fact the dossiers are missing means it is

inappropriate for the Home Office to be investigating this. There is

inappropriate for the Home Office to a police investigation. If after

that, there are questions unanswered which can only be answered by

that, there are questions unanswered public inquiry, or which require

resources that can only be commanded by a public inquiry, I could see the

case for going down that road. I fear that sometimes in this country

we invest almost supernatural powers in what a public inquiry can do. I

wonder whether there is another example of a country that goes

through this stale ritual every few years of a scandal emerging, the

opposition calling for an inquiry, the Government saying no and then

holding the line or giving in. I don't know what we think this

inquiries can do. It comes back to your point, Helen, you should be

careful what you call an inquiry on so it doesn't devalue the concept.

On Thursday up to a million public sector workers - including teachers,

firemen and council workers - will go on strike.

Their unions have differing gripes but the fact they're all striking

on the same day is designed to send a strong message to the government.

As the economy picks up again they're demanding an end

Growth has returned strongly to the UK economy

and unemployment is at its lowest level for more than five years.

So why is there still talk of austerity

The deficit is coming down but much more slowly than the government

And accumulated deficits - the national debt -

The UK is now in hock to the tune of ?1.3 trillion - and rising.

In fact, we're only 40% of the way through George Osborne's planned

austerity, with the chancellor now saying he won't manage to balance

Unions are now rebelling against tight pay controls.

Since 2010, average public sector pay, which goes to about 1 in 5

Over the same period, prices increased by 16% -

meaning the average public sector worker saw their pay squeezed

Going head-to-head on the public sector strikes and austerity -

the general secretary of the TUC Frances O'Grady, and Conservative

We have seen it, public sector pay squeezed by 9% under the Coalition

Government. Isn't it time to take your foot off the brake a bit? I

don't think it is the right time to let go of the public finances at

all. We were always clear that this is what's called a structural

deficit, it doesn't go away just because the growth is returning and

the economy is coming back. We have protected and are protecting the

lowest paid public sector workers who weren't part of the pay freeze

and now pay going up by 1%. These are difficult decisions. We have had

that discussion many times. They are necessary in order to keep that plan

on track and as we can see in the wider economy, it is working.

People's living standards will have to continue to fall if you are in

the public sector? We need to keep public spending under control and

pay restraint is one of the main ways of being able... The answer is

yes? The answer is this is necessary. The answer is yes, this

is necessary. It isn't because we want to. We have to. This strike

isn't going to change the Government's mind, is it? It does

seem like the Government isn't listening. We have had years... They

are listening, they just don't agree. Ordinary people, including

those in the public sector, are finding it really tough. What really

sticks in the throat is the idea that money can

sticks in the throat is the idea cuts to billionaires, to

millionaires and to cuts to billionaires, to

corporations. But it can't cuts to billionaires, to

to help 500,000 workers in local government, dinner ladies, school

meal workers, lollipop men and women who are earning less than the

meal workers, lollipop men and women wage. What do you say to that? We

have protected those who are the least well-paid in the public

sector. But this is about a long-term... How can you? Hold on.

You have said you long-term... How can you? Hold on.

them. This long-term... How can you? Hold on.

many watching this programme, they long-term... How can you? Hold on.

have had a 1% pay rise in some cases since 2010. The average gas bill is

up 57%, electric bill up 22%, food costs up 16%, running a car 11%, in

what way have you protected people from spending they have to make?

Firstly, you read out the average increases in public sector pay. That

has had the biggest impact at the top end and those at the bottom end

have been best protected, as best we could. Of course, we have also taken

two million people out of income tax and increased the income tax

threshold which has a big positive impact. We have frozen and then cut

fuel duty, which would have been 20 pence higher. I wanted to take on

this point about priorities. We have got to make sure that we get the

economy going at the same time and we raised more money from those at

the top than we did before 2010, partly because we have encouraged

them to invest. And this is a really important balance of making sure we

get the books back in order, we have stability for family finances and we

get the economy going. Why not spread the living wage? We know you

could pay for that pay increase itself if you spread the living wage

through the private sector and guarantee... The living wage being

above the minimum wage? Absolutely. ?7.65 in the rest of the country,

?8.80 in London. What is the answer? I'm a fan of the minimum wage. But

not for public sector workers. Being able to pay low-paid workers as much

as possible within the constraints of the public finances is something

I have pushed very hard. The evidence we can increase the minimum

wage has to be balanced which the Low Pay Commission do with the

impact on the number of jobs... Even after a pay freeze for quite a while

among public sector workers, they are still paid 15% on average more

than those in the private sector? That is not true. It is, according

to the ONS figures. I read that report this morning. If you look at

the whole package, what they are saying is public service workers are

worse off. Average earnings in the public sector are ?16.28 an hour

compared to ?14.16 private. You are comparing apples and pears. It's the

kind of jobs and the size of the workplace that people work in. They

are still overall on average better off? Lower paid workers tend to be

better off because unions negotiate better deals for lower paid workers.

They are more unionised in the pry private sector. The public sector is

worse off. This is a political strike, isn't it? There is a whole

disparate range of reasons. The strike is saying that you are

against this Government, that is what this is about? I this I what

firefighters, local government workers and health workers who are

protesting, too, alongside teachers are saying is that this Government

is not listening, it is out of touch, people can't carry on having

cuts in their living standards depending on benefits. When will the

public sector worker ever get a real increase in their pay under a

Conservative Government? Well, we certainly hope to have the books

balanced by 2018. Not before then? 2018 is when we hope to be able to

be in surplus. It is testament... So, no real pay increase for public

sector workers before 2018? Interestingly, this isn't just about

the Conservatives and the Lib Dems, the Labour Party leadership have

said it is a test of their credibility that they support the

squeeze on public sector pay. I look forward to them, they ought to come

out and say very clearly that these strikes are wrong and they are

against the strikes and stop taking union money. It is a democratic

right. Hold on. They are - they think the policy of pay restraint is

necessary. Alright. On this point about democracy... Ask yourself why

so many ordinary decent public service workers are so fed up. They

have seen so many billions of pounds wasted through outsourcing to

organisations like G4 S. In Unite and UNISON the turnout in this vote

was under 20%. Alright. OK. One final question... Hold on. You said

millions and millions voted on this... I want to ask you this

question. Is the story in the Mail on Sunday today that Mr Cameron's

planning a big crackdown on the unions over balloting, is that true?

Well, strikes like this... I know the cases, is it true you are going

to dhang the law? Strikes like this make that argument stronger. The

Conservative Party is in Government on the basis of 23% of the

electorate... We have run out of time. Thank you very much.

"Should Scotland be an independent country?"

That's the question the people of Scotland will answer in a referendum

If the polls are to be believed, the voters will answer "no".

But in 2011 - ten weeks before the Holyrood elections - the polls

told us that Labour was going to win and look what happened there - a

Alistair Darling is leading the campaign against independnence.

is one that puts the matter of independence to bed for a

generation. In numerical terms, what would that be? We need a decisive

result in September, I think we will get that provided we get our

arguments across in the next couple of months. What would it be in

figures? I am not going to put a number on it. People will look at it

and say, OK, you have had two and a half years of debate and Scotland

has now decided. The polls may be encouraging at the moment but I am

not complacent, there is still a long way to go. Speculating... If

you don't want to answer that, that is fair enough. Your side claims

that a vote for independence is a vote for massive uncertainty but if

it is a no vote there is lots of uncertainty too. All of the

Westminster parties are promising devolution but there is no

timetable, no certainty. Yes, there is. For the first time I can

remember, all three parties are more or less on the same page in terms of

additional powers, we already have powers in terms of policing and

transport, now more powers are planned in relation to tax and

welfare. But you are all saying different things. Between 2009 and

2012, the three parties have slightly different proposals but

they came together and there was an agreed series of reforms in relation

to tax which are now on the statute book. If you go back to the

devolutionary settlement in 1998, people unified around a single

proposition so there is history here and these three parties have

delivered and they will deliver in the event of people saying we will

stay part of the UK. If Scotland vote no to independence, when will

Scotland get these extra powers? I would imagine that in the general

election all three parties will have something in their manifesto and you

would expect to see legislation in the session of Parliament that

follows that. Imagining is not certainty. Because the three parties

have said this is what they will do, and it is important having said that

they stick to it. If you look in the past when the Nationalists said the

same thing, when they cast doubt over what would happen in 2012, we

delivered. The only party that walked out of both of these

discussions were the Nationalists because they are not interested in

more powers, they want a because they are not interested in

break. You cannot because they are not interested in

Edinburgh gets more devolution that wouldn't mean fewer Scottish MPs in

Westminster, can you? Nobody has any plans to reduce the number of MPs.

If you step back from this moment, what people have been asked to do in

September is to vote on the future of their country, Scotland, and

whether we should be part of the UK. When I say part of the UK, full

members of the UK with representation in the House of

Commons and the institutions that affect our lives. This is a

critically important vote. We want to see more decentralisation of

power to Scotland, and to local authorities within Scotland, but we

don't want a complete break with the uncertainties, the risks and the

downright disadvantages that would throw Scotland's away if we were to

make that break. The economic arguments are dominating people's

thinking, the polls show, that is what is dominating at the moment.

You cannot guarantee continued membership of the European Union

given all the talk now about an in-out UK referendum. Firstly I

don't think anyone has ever argued Scotland wouldn't get back in. The

big question is the terms and conditions we would have to meet and

we are applying to get into something that is established, it

wouldn't be a negotiation. What we have said is there is no way Europe

would let Scotland keep the rebate which Scotland has, there would be

big questions over whether we have to join the euro, and other terms

and conditions. The European Union does not act with any great speed,

on average it takes eight and a half years to get into Europe. I don't

want that uncertainty or the disadvantages that would come

Scotland's away that come with losing clout in the European Union.

The second point you asked me about is in relation to the UK's

membership of the European Union, and if you look at polls, the

majority of people still want to stay in the UK. Frankly, a lot of

people on my side didn't make the argument against independence for a

long time, we have been doing that over the last two and a half years

and we are making progress and that is why I can say I think we will win

provided we continue to get our arguments across. Similarly with the

European Union, the case needs to be made because it is a powerful case.

Isn't it true that the Nationalists win either way? They win if it is a

yes vote, and they win if it is a no vote. They wanted devolution max so

they win either way. There is a world of difference between

devolution and further devolution where you remain part of the UK.

There is a world of difference between that and making a break,

where Scotland becomes a foreign country to the rest of the UK. You

lose that security and those opportunities. You lose the same

currency, the opportunity with pensions and so on. They are

entitled to argue this case with passion, they want a break, but the

two things are worlds apart. Gordon Brown said that the no campaign was

too negative, have you adjusted to take that criticism into account?

Ever since I launched this campaign over two years ago I said we would

make a strong powerful case for remaining part of the UK. Look at

our research, where we have had warnings from people to say that if

we do well with research in Scotland we get more than our population

share of the grand and we gain from that. There is a positive case but

equally nobody will stop me from saying to the Nationalists, look at

the assertions you make which are collapsing like skittles at the

moment. Their assertions don't stand up. They assert that somehow milk

and honey will be flowing. It is perfectly healthy within a

referendum campaign to say that what you are saying simply isn't true.

You have been negative, we all know about the so-called Cyber Nats book

you compared Alex Salmond to the leader of North Korea. On! The

context was that Alex Salmond was being asked why it was that UKIP had

additional seat and he appeared to blame television being been doing

from another country, from BBC South of the border. If you cannot have

humour in a debate, heaven help us. I think it is important in this

debate that people from outside politics should be allowed to have

their say whatever side they are on because that will make for a far

better, healthier debate. Nobody should be put in a state of fear and

alarm by worrying about what will happen if they stand up. Despite the

nastiness, more and more people are making a stand. We have run out of

time. Thank you. I will be talking to the SNP's

hippity leader, Nicola Sturgeon, next week on Sunday Politics.

Scotland: For Richer or Poorer will be on BBC Two at 9pm tomorrow.

Disastrous results in the European elections, it is fair to say the Lib

Dems are down in the doldrums. In a moment I will be speaking to Nick

Clegg, but first Emily has been asking what Lib Dems would say to

the Prime -- Deputy Prime Minister on Call Clegg. Our phone in this

week is the challenges facing the Liberal Democrats. They are rock

bottom in the polls and have dire results in the local and European

elections so what can the party do to turn things around? Get in

touch, we are going straight to line one and Gareth. How much is a

problem of that loss of local support? It is a massive problem

because those are the building blocks of our success. The

councillors who gets the case work done are also the people who go out

and deliver the leaflets and knock on doors. Interesting, and it is not

just local support the party has lost, is it? In the next general

election there are some big-name Liberal Democrat MPs standing down

like Malcolm Bruce and Ming Campbell, how much of a problem will

that be? That is a real challenge and we have some of our brightest

and best reaching an age of maturity at the same moment so that is quite

an additional test in what will be a difficult election anyway. So how

does the party need to position itself to win back support? Let's go

to Chris online free, has the party got its strategy right? There is

always a danger of appearing to be a party that merely dilutes Labour or

dilutes the Conservatives. We have a of is serious, positive messages and

we need to get those across in the next election because

we need to get those across in the people will vote for the Tories.

Nick, what do you think of the party's message at the moment? I

have had a look at early draft of our manifesto and there is some good

stuff in there but the authors are probably too interested in what may

think we have achieved in the last five years and not really focusing

on what the voters will want to be hearing about the next five years.

Perhaps they should get out more and test some of these messages on the

doorstep. So you want to see the top ranks of the party on the doorstep.

Gareth online one also wants to make a point about the manifesto. There

is clearly a problem somewhere near the top and there are some people

who seem to be obsessed with power for power's sake, and happy with a

timid offer but the Liberal Democrats want to change things. We

are running out of time so let's try to squeeze one more call in. What

are your thoughts on the long-term future of the party? I think serious

long-term danger is that the party could be relegated to the fringes of

the UK and no longer being a national party. We have gone back

decades if that happens because for many years we have been represented

in every part of the country at some level and we have got to rescue

ourselves from that. Some interesting views but we are going

to have to wait until the general election next year to find out how

well the Lib Dems face up to these challenges. Thanks for listening, we

are going to finish with an old classic now.

# I'm sorry, I'm sorry... #. Nick Clegg, welcome to the

programme. I want to come onto your situation in a minute but as you

will have seen in the papers, there is mounting concern over and

historic Westminster paedophile ring, and files relating to it

mysteriously disappearing. Why are you against a full public enquiry

into this? I wouldn't rule anything out. I think we should do anything

it takes to uncover this and achieve justice.

delivered, even all these many years later. How do you do it? There is an

inquiry in the Home Office about what's happened to these documents,

serious questions need to be asked about what happened in the Home

Office and those questions need to be answered. There are inquiries in

the BBC, in the NHS and most importantly of all the police are

looking into the places where this abuse was alleged to have taken

place. All I would say is, let's make sure that justice is delivered,

truth is uncovered and I think that the way to do that, as we have seen,

is by allowing the police to get on with their work. You say that, but

there are only seven police involved in this inquiry. There are 195

involved in the hacking investigations. We can both agree

that child abuse is more important and serious than hacking. The Home

Office, there are reports that Home Office officials may have been

mentioned in the dossier, people don't trust people to investigate

themselves, Mr Clegg? No, I accept that we need to make sure that - and

the police need to make sure that the police investigations are

thorough, well resourced. I can't think of anything more horrendous, I

can't, than powerful people organising themselves and worse

still, this is what is alleged, covering up for each other to abuse

the most vulnerable people in society's care - children. But at

the end of the day, the only way you can get people in the dock, the only

way you can get people charged, is by allowing the prosecuting

authorities and the police to do their job. I have an open mind about

what other inquiries take place. A number of other inquiries are taking

place. I assume any additional inquiries wouldn't be able to second

guess or look into the matters which the police are looking into already.

All I would say is that people who have information, who want to

provide information which they think is relevant to this, please get in

touch with the police. Alright. Let's come on to our own inquiry

into the state of the Lib Dems. You have attempted to distance yourself

and the party from the Tories, but still stay in Government - it is

called aggressive differentiation. Why isn't it working? It's not

called aggressive differentiation. It is called "coalition". It is two

parties who retain different identities, different values, have

different aspirations for the future. But during this Parliament

have come together because we were facing a unique national emergency

back in 2010, the economy was teetering on the edge of a

precipice. I'm immensely proud, notwithstanding our political

challenges, which are real, I'm immensely proud that the Liberal

Democrats, we stepped up to the plate, held our nerve and without

the Liberal Democrats, there wouldn't now be that economic

recovery which is helping many people across the country. Why

aren't you getting any credit for it? Well, we won't get credit if we

spend all our time staring at our navals. If it wasn't for the Liberal

Democrats, there wouldn't be more jobs now available to people. They

don't believe you, they are giving the Tories the credit for the

recovery? Well, you might assert that, we will assert and I will

shout it from the rooftops that if we had not created the stability by

forming this Coalition Government and then hard-wired into the

Government's plans, not only the gory job of fixing the public

finances, but doing so much more fairly than would have been the

case, if the Conservatives had been in Government on their own, they

wouldn't have delivered these tax cuts. They wouldn't have delivered

the triple lock guarantee for pensions or the pupil premium. OK.

Why are you 8% in the polls? Well, because I think where we get our

message across - and I am here in my own constituency - this is a

constituency where I am a campaigning MP - we can dispel a lot

of the information and say we have done a decent thing by going into

Government and we have delivered big changes, big reforms which you can

touch and see in your school, in your pensions, in your taxes and

then people do support us and, in our areas of strength, we were

winning against both the Conservative and Labour parties. It

is a big effort. Of course, there are lots of people from both left

and right who want to shout us down and want to vilify our role in

Government. What we also need to do - and Nick Harvey was quite right -

having been proud of our record of delivery, we also need to set out in

our manifesto as we are and as we will our promise of more, of more

support in schools. So why is it then... Why is it then that a Lib

Dem MP in our own film says you are in danger of no longer becoming a

National Party. That could be the Clegg legacy, you cease to be a

National Party? I'm a practical man. I believe passionately in what we

have done in politics. I am so proud of my party. I don't spend that much

time speculating that the end might be nigh. There is no point in doing

that. Let's get out there, which is what I do in my own constituency, in

challenges circumstances and say we are proud of what we have done, we

have done a good thing for the country, we have delivered more

Liberal Democrat policies than the party has ever dreamed delivering

before. We have a programme of change, of reform, of liberal

reform, which is very exciting. Just over the last few weeks, I have been

setting out our plans to provide more help to carers, to make sure

teachers in every classroom are properly qualified, that all kids in

school are being taught a proper core curriculum. That parts company

from the ideological rigidities with which the Conservatives deal with

education policy. Those are thing which speak to many of the values

that people who support us... Alright. When Mike Storey gets out

and about, he told this programme two weeks' ago that he finds that

you "are toxic on the doorstep". Look, as everybody knows, being the

leader of a party, which for the first time in its history goes into

Government, which is already a controversial thing to do because

you are governing with our enemies, the Conservatives, and on top of

that, doing all the difficult and unpopular things to fix the broken

economy which was left to us by Labour, of course as leader of that

party I get a lot of incoming fire from right and left. The right say

that I'm stopping the Conservatives doing what they want. There is a

good reason for that. They didn't win the election. The left say that

somehow we have lost our soul when we haven't. That happens day in, day

out. Of course that will have some effect. My answer to that is not to

buckle to those criticisms, those misplaced Chris -- criticisms from

left and right, but to stand up proudly. Is it your intention to

fight the next election against an in-out referendum on Europe? Yes.

Unless there is major treaty change? Our position hasn't waivered, it

won't waiver, we are not going to flip-flop on the issue of the

referendum like the Conservatives did. We want an in-out referendum.

With ve legislated for the trigger when that will happen, when in u

powers are transferred to the European Union. That is what we have

said for years. We legislated for that... So no change? No change.

Alright. We are expecting a reshuffle shortly. Will you keep

Vince Cable as Business Secretary to the election? I'm immensely proud of

what Vince has done. Yes, I intend to make sure that Vince continues to

serve in the Government in his present capacity Look what he has

done on apprenticeships, he's done more than many people for many years

to make sure we build-up manufacturing, the north here, not

just the south. I'm proud of what he's done. We have talked about some

heavy things. We know you have got into kickboxing. Is there any danger

of you becoming a mammal - you know what I mean - a middle-aged man in

Lycra! Will the Tour de France influence you? Absolutely no risk of

that whatsoever having seen the Tour de France start yesterday near

Leeds. I have the yellow Yorkshire sign on my pullover. I will see them

later whisk through my constituency. I will not try to emulate them. I'm

sure that is to the relief of a grateful nation. Thank you.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in 20 minutes,

the Week Ahead. First

Welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. Talks are dead in

the water, we ask if executive business will be a casual list of

Unionist protest. Joining me on ministers from the Ulster Unionists

and Alliance Party 's. John McAllister takes his leave of 921,

we look back at the political romance that went sour. He joins me

alive. My guests are two journalists.

The talks collapsed after 24 hours, the North-South ministerial meetings

where respond. The fallout so far from the Parades Commission

determination. They wanted to what past the Ardoyne shops on the 4th of

July. -- the 12th of July. It is unclear if that will happen. Are the

basic functions of government going to fall victim to these latest wave

of protests? Danny Kennedy and Stephen Ferry join me this morning.

There is obviously crucial work to be done this week for all the people

of Northern Ireland. Can you reassure people watching this

programme that unlike the talks at the ministerial Council, that will

not be impacted by this new pan you nursed action? I have ministers in

the executive. We were working on issues last week. I had a meeting

with the Transport Minister discussing issues of mutual

concern. The work of the executive ministers and the work of everything

related to the governance of the country is continuing. I hope the

executive will proceed to deal with the normal business. It will also

deal with the issue of today, the Ardoyne parade. We have got to read

as an executive with those issues. I would ask for that matter to be

fully discussed around the executive table. Why is that an executive

issue? Because it is of vital importance to the stability and

public order and all the issues we are aware of. Why wouldn't the

executive what to discuss the issue of the day that is dominating

discussion at the moment. I think there is an opportunity. I am

interested to see how the other parties react. What happens if your

executive colleagues do not want to discuss this? I would be astonished.

That those at the top of government level would not

That those at the top of government these issues. Danny is free to break

it up. If he does there will be a discussion about that. We had talks

last week where Danny's party walked out and the DUP. Over a

last week where Danny's party walked one particular parade, people will

walk away from the table rather than discuss the future of parades. We

have to bear in mind that there are established procedures to deal

have to bear in mind that there are Commission. People may not like

that, Commission. People may not like

that there has to be a referee like in the World Cup. We

that there has to be a referee like agreement. They are the only sure in

town, they are the only law, we have to respect their decisions. Can we

discussed this issue. You were pressed on this on Thursday, but she

walked out. Now you want to put this on the agenda on Tuesday for the

executive meeting. There is a difference between all-party

negotiations and executive business. I think we do have to deal with the

here and now. It is very interesting that Stephen seems to be indicating

that he doesn't want to talk about this specific case of Ardoyne and

the way we are approaching it. People will find that astonishing

from senior parties and senior politicians because it is one thing

to be in discussions and negotiations about longer-term

solutions, and those talks are about longer-term solutions for that, but

we are in the here and now. We are at a difficult and challenging

point. Why cannot politicians at the highest level working in Northern

Ireland now want to engage? I am happy to have a discussion. We have

to give their place and give them... They have not been given

their place now and they are now off the agenda. You going to take that

on Tuesday? Let's make a linkage between the economic and financial

costs on what is happening with parades on a wider policies. It is

costing towers -- is ?10 million on police. Who knows what will happen

in the next week with what will happen on the streets, what will be

the direct financial costs? What are the political consequences

potentially of this graduated response that the joint Unionist

statement that was issued on Thursday? What can we expect to see

happen in the next couple of weeks? It will depend on progress of the

lack of it. It will be a graduated response. Not necessarily an

accelerated response. Is there a template or are you just making this

up on the roof? No, we're not making this up on the hoof. We want to see

progress on all these issues, that is important. It will be interesting

to see who is against it. Who wants to see progress on resolving the

Ardoyne issue. Before I go back to Stephen Ferry, in the meantime, is

the message from you as a senior member of the Ulster Unionist Party,

that you do not want to see this issue brought up in the streets? Our

preference is that Google is not brought up in the streets, that it

is resolved. The graduated response is creating stability --

instability. People do not know what it means. There is a danger here. We

have to establish that are executive collectively can work, ministers

individually may be doing a good job, there is the image of

dysfunction. That has not been challenged. You see the institutions

are imperilled by what you have heard in the past? It is premature

to say. There is signs in terms of the rhetoric that has been used,

there is a degree of uncertainty out there. It is not just a case of

whether the institutions will stay, we need to change gears and the

executive has to be seen to be delivering. The institutions have

been put under threat by the behaviour of the Parades Commission

and those who threaten the Parades Commission, do you agree with that?

It is completely wrong. Peter Robinson said this, do you agree?

What I am more interested in is finding a resolution around the

executive tables and is -- at executive level. As part of the

graduated response, you will wrap things up and that could mean

bringing people out onto the streets. Maybe your preference will

come to be? I am not going to predict forthcoming events. What I

want to do is deal with the here and now and the best way of dealing that

in my view and in the view of my party is to have these discussions

fully heard, there is accessed through the Unionist party, they

would have opinions through the Orange Order, accessed through Sinn

Fein. I think those issues need to be seriously challenged and

explored. We will leave it there. Let's get some response from my

guests of the day. Leon, do you get a sense that we are heading down a

one way street with this? I do not think it is for certain yet. Peter

Robinson has threatened the collapse of the institutions before. When we

get into this territory, eventually you could topple it. I think it is

unlikely we will have a resolution to this issue. You would like to

thank the executive could put out of joint statement calling for peace.

That is not going to be forthcoming. Suzanne, do you think it is

reasonable that the executive discuss this as part of the agenda

on Tuesday? Yes, of course it is reasonable. It is this is that

looking at other political debates over recent days, our politicians do

not look like they are members of government. They look like critters

of government. They look like participants way they have been

fighting. There is disappointment -- disagreements within parties. I

could not picture Nick Clegg by David Cameron arguing over what is

such a minor matter, a six minute walk down a road. Really, it is the

politics of the playground, they really need to grow up. Do you think

there are unionists who want to call at the institutions to trigger new

elections? I think that is something they are contemplating but I am not

sure it would be a good outcome for the DUP if they were collapsed. I

would think they would want to hold back on that for a while. Thank you

very much. There was one party that lost its whole group. John

McAllister finally quit. It was described as the most toxic

experience of his life. With a possible investigation by the

assembly standards commission for alleged inappropriate sexual

behaviour hanging over him. In a moment we will hear from John

McAllister. First we look at how the fledgling party imploded so

spectacularly and asks if it has any future at all. It began well.

It promised the politics of change. What are they about?

Now they are together now more. For lights and spectacular not even John

McAllister and the former party the Ulster Unionists ever match that.

How did it happen? Even early on there were differences over how N121

would operate. John McAllister said he's it is a political party. But

the wheels came off when this former N121 employee made allegations of

sexually inappropriate behaviour against Basil McAfee in, allegations

he denies. John McAllister instigated an investigation. That

investigation has now been halted instigated an investigation. That

disappointed about how her complaint was handled. They are in the

disappointed about how her complaint of sanding them into the

Commissioner for standards. She is confident this is the correct route

to follow. It is for Mr Bean to decide if Mr McRae has committed a

breach of the members code of conduct. So how is all of this going

down with those who still believe in the N121 dream? The only candidate

to get elected at the recent council elections was asked. I stood for

election for N121. I believe in the dream of N121. There is no other

place for me before the election. Does the party have a future? Of

course, there is a band of people working with the core of the party

to build it up. I am not going to lie to you and say to you there has

not been series issues over the past month. There are a core of people

working hard to build this party up to be weighed it should be. Others

have given up. This council candidate was part of the Queen's

Birthday University N121 party which recently folded. We thought it was

unacceptable for them to be reacting in such a way. We at them to leave.

Have you left? Yes. Has it that the mob politics? The ice behind --

ideas behind N121 were good. I might join another political party. For

Johnny McCarthy, the dream leaves on. -- lives on. There are so many

people convinced by a strong Northern Ireland state. Whatever

person, whatever brand is behind that, doesn't really matter. That

dream is still there. N121 have not just lost an MLA, John McAllister's

going means goodbye to almost ?30,000 in assembly funding. One

thing that is remarkable about N121 is when a party that has only been

around for one year, it has had a remarkable impact for all the wrong

reasons. If you take a look at what has happened is recently in the last

few months, they have managed to tarnish the brand, they have managed

to tarnish any prospect of coming back. That is a more -- remarkable

feat for a party. As for Basil McCrea, he is considering legal

action, but against two it is unclear. We asked for an interview

but he declined saying he had a story to tell, but now was not the

time. As for John McAllister, is he the man who put principle before a

promising political career? I am pleased that you think I had a

promising political career. I can certainly live with that comment.

promising political career. I can people said I put principle before

my career, I do not think it is a bad thing. For now the party goes on

but with vastly reduced expectations. It is our intention as

onstage to form the government of Northern Ireland. You could say it

will be Alister McRae for first Minister? You could say that. He has

possibly restart that for now. Until his beaks for himself, we can only

guess. John McAllister joins me now. N121,

in government for Northern Ireland. Basil saying that he could be the

tension lay the first Minister. There are so many things that went

on in N121. The organisation stuff wasn't there, it wasn't good, though

but the key bit was how do you deal and has N121 the capacity to deal

with the allegations made against Basil McCrea? That has to work

through. That is going to take time. There was no organisation, no

political party can ignore those kinds of allegations being levelled

of any member of the party. That was perhaps the straw that broke the

camel's back. There were other disagreements between you both

before that happened. After so much hope, it has ended in tears. I agree

that it is part of... There were other problems. The seriousness of

allegations like that, any party, any organisation has to find a

mechanism to deal with that. That has moved to the commission for

standards. You cannot ignore those kinds of allegations and I would

suggest at any time, never mind in the era that we live in today. Do

you regret having taken so much on with your relationship with Basil

McCrea? Yes, I regret that because the messages of N121, the principles

and values I wrote for N121, the road that I set out for N121, to

build a new society with a new government and opposition. If you

change the structure is in Stormont and how that starts to deliver. That

is what N121 would have been about. If Basil did the style off two, I

did the substance. We never built a party, but the final implosion was

not about these structures are what we built, it was about how do you

deal with allegations against a party leader in that term? The N121

does not have the capacity to deal with that. That is why we had to go

out. Does N121 have a future? That is not now for me to comment on. Do

you think it might have a future's I do not think it has a future

personally. Do you think Basil is clinging to the wreckage? Yes, I

think he is. What is your comment as you sit in the backbench's do not

start a party with Basil McCrea. If you asked me how do you build around

the ideas of that and the structure and move on from that. It is about

promoting ideas and putting our party in opposition to the

government. Will you stand for election again? Yes. In South so we

have election again? Yes. In South so we

McAllister? No. We will have some final thoughts. Suzanne,

McAllister? No. We will have some think there is a future

McAllister? No. We will have some No. The story is not over. We need

be told and he has to clear his name. That will be interesting and

that is part of the jigsaw that is missing. It is not about who is

right or wrong. So much damage has been done to N121 that it it is

over. What is amusing is that the backstabbing and gossip that has

been going on, is that it is not women, it is men. It is not waving,

it is groaning at the moment. We will see every Basil McCrea talks in

before that started. I wish we had longer for that. It is all over to

you. What will Thursday's mass

public sector strike achieve? Has David Cameron's anti-Juncker

attacks clawed back support And is Alan Johnson really thinking

about challenging Ed Miliband We will start with the strikes, Matt

Hancock was hardline in the head-to-head that he did with the

TUC. I guess that the Tory internal polling and focus groups must be

telling them that there are votes in taking a tough line? There is that

and there is the fact that they are now much more confident on any

economic policy two or three years ago. They shied away from it because

the economy was shrinking, there was still a danger that public sector

job losses would lead to higher unemployment overall. Now, the

economy is growing, they have a good story to sell about employment so

they are much more bolshy and brazen than they were two or three years

ago. They know that it always causes problems for Labour. Labour is

naturally sympathetic to the public sector workers, pay being squeezed,

they are striking to make an issue of it. And yet they can't quite come

out and give the unions 100% Labour support? Exactly. You saw Tristram

Hunt on the Marr Show this morning squirming to support the idea of

strikes, but not this particular strike. It was always the question

that gets asked to Labour - who funds you? That is a real problem.

The bit that gets me is they trail this ef are I time there is a --

every time there is a strike, this idea of cutting it to ballots and

local election turnout was a third. Boris Johnson was elected Mayor of

London with 38% turnout. We need to talk about-turnout across our

democracy. That is an easy rebuttal for Labour to make. Matt Hancock was

hardline about changing the strike law. When you asked him the

question, if you are not going to stabilise the public finances till

2018, does this mean the pay freeze or no real term pay increase in the

public sector will increase till 2018, h e was inner vous on that

one. -- he was nervous on that one. This strike is different to those

strikes that took place in 2010. At that time, the TUC and the Labour

Leadership thought there was going to be a great movement out there,

not a kind of 1926 movement, but a great movement out there. This time

round, I think the climate is different. Ed Miliband talking about

wage increases being outstripped by inflation and people not seeing the

recovery coming through into their pay packets. Slightly more tricky

territory for the Tories. If The Labour machine cannot make something

out of Matt Hancock telling this programme there will be no increase

in pay for workers in the public sector till 2018, they have a

problem? They do have a problem. They have to say always that they

would not just turn the money taps on. That is the dance that you are

locked in all the time. Can we all agree that Alan Johnson is not going

to stand against Ed Miliband this side of the election? Some

politicians are cynical enough. I don't think Alan Johnson is one. Do

we agree? There is nothing in it for Labour and certainly not for Alan

Johnson. No way. It is the last thing he would want to do. There are

some desperate members going around trying to find a stalking horse.

Alan Johnson will not be their man. He has more important things to do

on a Thursday night on BBC One! Isn't it something about the febrile

state of the Labour Party that Labour, some Labour backbenchers or

in the Shadow Cabinet, can float the idea of this nonsense? If there was

a time to do it, maybe it was in the middle of the Parliament. With ten

months left, you are stuck with the leader you chose in 2010. I remember

them failing to understand this in January of 2010 when there was that

last push against Gordon Brown. Five months before an election, they were

trying to do something. The deputy Leader of the Labour Party had

something to do with it. There is deep unease about Ed Miliband. There

are problems but Alan Johnson is not the man. I think there is no chance

of it! If the most recent polls are to be

believed, David Cameron appears to have enjoyed a 'Juncker bounce' -

clawing back some support from UKIP after he very publicly opposed the

appointment of Jean-Claude Juncker to the post of EU Commission

president. Last week Nigel Farage took his newly enlarged UKIP

contingent to Strasbourg for the first session

of the new European Parliament. These two gentlemen have nothing to

say today. It was the usual dull, looking back to a model invented 50

years ago and we are the ones that want democracy, we are the ones that

want nation state, we are the ones that want a global future for our

countries, not to be trapped inside this museum. Thank you. I can see we

will be covering more of the European Parliament at last!

It's rumoured he's likely to stand in the next general election in the

Kent constituency of Thanet South, currently held by the Conservatives.

Last week the Conservatives selected their candidate for the seat -

Craig McKinlay - a former deputy leader of UKIP.

Did you get the short straw, you have got a seat that Nigel Farage is

probably going to fight? Not in the slightest. It is a seat that I know

well. It is a seat that there's obvious euro scepticism there and my

qualities are right for that seat. UKIP got some very good... What are

your qualities? Deep-seated conservatism, I was a founder of

UKIP, I wrote the script back in 1992. My heart is Conservative

values. They are best put out to the public by me in South Thanet. It

would be ridiculous if Nigel chose that seat. We need a building block

of people like myself to form a Government if we are going to have

that referendum that is long overdue. I don't think he's got the

luxury of losing somebody who is very similar in views to him. He

would be best look looking elsewhere. You wouldn't like him to

stand in your seat, would you? It would seem to make very little

sense. People would say what is UKIP all about if it's fighting people

who have got a similar view to them? We do need to build a majority

Government for the Conservatives next year because only us are

offering that clear in-out referendum. I want to be one of

those building blocks that is part of that renegotiation that we will

put to public in a referendum. Sounds to me like if the choice is

between you and Nigel Farage next May in Thanet South, it is Tweedle

Dum and Tweedle Dee? Not at all. The danger to this country is another

Labour Government. That is one of the main reasons that I left UKIP in

2005 because that last five years of the Labour Government was the most

dangerous to the fundamentals of Britain that we have ever seen. I'm

happy with the Conservatives. I have full Conservative values. I am a

Euro-sceptic. Thank you for joining us. The Westminster bubble yet

again, which has a herd mentality, a bubble with a herd mentality, it got

it wrong yet again. Mr Cameron's isolated, he is useless at

diplomacy, all of which may be true, but the British people liked it and

his backbenchers liked it? True. Although some of us would say it is

possible... You are speaking for the bubble? I'm speaking for my segment

of the bubble. Some of us argued that he got it wrong diplomatically

and it would be wrong politically. It will be the passage of time. We

saw UKIP decline between the 2004 European elections and the 2005

General. You would expect something similar to happen this time round.

The question is how far low do they fall? They are still registering

12-15% in the opinion polls. They are. When Mr Cameron wielded his

veto which again the Westminster bubble said it's terrible, it is

embarrassing, he overtook Labour in the polls for a while doing that.

He's had a Juncker bounce. If you were a strategist, would you not

conclude the more Euro-sceptic I am, the better it is for me in the

polls? In the short-term, yes. This is the short-term thinking we are

supposed to despise. The electricion is very clever for a different --

the selection is very clever for a different reason. It is this

anti-London feeling in Thanet South. He is a councillor, he grew up in

the constituency. He is a chartered accountant. He is somebody who can

be seen to be a champion of local people. If they had parachuted in a

special adviser, they would be in real trouble. He wants to get out...

This is the third representative of the bubble? He wants to get out of

the European Union which David Cameron doesn't want to do. It was

interesting for that statement to MPs on Monday, there were mild

Euro-sceptics who said, "I can't take this." The Speaker said can the

baying mob, the Conservative MPs, quieten down, please. Ben Bradshaw,

the former Minister made it, he said, "I'm reminded when the leader

of the Labour Party before Harold Wilson made that famous Euro-sceptic

speech and Mrs Gaitskell said darling, the wrong people are

cheering." That is the challenge. Thank you, bubbles!

The Daily Politics is back at its usual Noon time every day

And I'll be back here on BBC One next Sunday at 11pm for the last

Sunday Politics of the summer - I'll be talking to Scotland's Deputy

Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

One, two, three, four, here they come.

Patton strikes, it's there! Oh, what a goal!