06/07/2014 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


06/07/2014

Mark Carruthers looks at the political developments of the week and questions policy makers on the key issues.


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Up to a million public sector workers will strike this week.

:00:34.:00:40.

It's one of the biggest walk-outs since 2010.

:00:41.:00:43.

The country's top trade unionist Frances O'Grady and

:00:44.:00:51.

The Tour de France seems to have cheered him up - just as well

:00:52.:00:54.

for the Deputy Prime Minister hasn't got much else to smile about.

:00:55.:00:58.

Nick Clegg joins me live from Sheffield to discuss the

:00:59.:01:00.

Just over ten weeks until Scotland determines its future.

:01:01.:01:07.

The man leading the campaign AGAINST independence, Alistair Darling,

:01:08.:01:10.

The executive business offer as a result of Unionist action. I will be

:01:11.:01:26.

discussing that with Danny Kennedy and Stephen very.

:01:27.:01:30.

journalists always ahead of the peleton - Nick Watt,

:01:31.:01:36.

They'll be tweeting faster than Tour de France cyclists can pedal.

:01:37.:01:51.

The news is dominated this morning by stories swirling

:01:52.:01:53.

around allegations of an historic Westminster paedophile ring.

:01:54.:01:56.

Concern has grown because of the disappearance of a dossier

:01:57.:01:59.

handed over to the Home Office in 1983, along with over 100 official

:02:00.:02:01.

files related to it and possibly containing details of historic child

:02:02.:02:03.

Labour is calling for a public inquiry led by a child protection

:02:04.:02:09.

But speaking earlier on The Andrew Marr Show this morning

:02:10.:02:14.

the Education Secretary Michael Gove ruled that out.

:02:15.:02:19.

The most important thing that we need to do is ensure that the due

:02:20.:02:25.

process of law pursues those who may be guilty of individual crimes and

:02:26.:02:29.

we also learn lessons about what may or may not have gone wrong in the

:02:30.:02:33.

past, but it is also important to emphasise that many of the

:02:34.:02:36.

allegations that are being made are historic. And what we do now in

:02:37.:02:41.

order to keep children safer is better and stronger than was the

:02:42.:02:45.

case when 20 or 30 years ago. Without getting into a boring

:02:46.:02:49.

tit-for-tat, public inquiry, "yes" or "no"? No. Helen, can the

:02:50.:02:54.

Government go on resisting calls for a full-scale inquiry? It is very

:02:55.:02:59.

hard. There are cynical and non-cynical reasons for calling for

:03:00.:03:02.

an inquiry. The cynical one allows you to say I can't comment on this.

:03:03.:03:06.

The non-cynical is it manages to get people to air allegations in a way

:03:07.:03:11.

that is safe. What we saw at the Leveson Inquiry was helpful, people

:03:12.:03:15.

who felt they had been shut out from justice getting a chance to tell

:03:16.:03:19.

their side of the story. A public inquiry in this case is a good idea.

:03:20.:03:22.

Labour have called for a lot of public inquiries. A list was made in

:03:23.:03:27.

2012 of how many they called for. Not only Savile, but the West Coast

:03:28.:03:33.

Main Line and breast implants. On this particular issue, the people

:03:34.:03:36.

don't trust the politicians, they don't trust the police either

:03:37.:03:39.

because they may have been complicit in a cover-up. They may not trust

:03:40.:03:45.

the Home Office who we are told some of their officials were mentioned in

:03:46.:03:49.

the dossier? That is what David Cameron is hanging on to. This is a

:03:50.:03:53.

matter now because they are alleged criminal activity, it is for the

:03:54.:03:56.

police to investigate. In that big piece in the Sunday Times, Tim

:03:57.:04:02.

Shipman reports one of the people making the allegations lives in the

:04:03.:04:03.

United States making the allegations lives in the

:04:04.:04:06.

been out to the United States to interview him. The Prime Minister

:04:07.:04:08.

would say that is how serious the police are taking it. The problem

:04:09.:04:09.

for the Prime Minister - he police are taking it. The problem

:04:10.:04:16.

allergic to big public inquiry. His finest moment was his response to

:04:17.:04:20.

the Bloody Sunday inquiry shortly after he became Prime

:04:21.:04:20.

inrequest -- that inquiry took 12 years to report. The problem is the

:04:21.:04:34.

dossier has gone missing, the files have gone missing, more allegations

:04:35.:04:40.

keep coming out either directly or indirectly. It doesn't look like it

:04:41.:04:42.

is going to go away? The fact the dossiers are missing means it is

:04:43.:04:50.

inappropriate for the Home Office to be investigating this. There is

:04:51.:04:54.

inappropriate for the Home Office to a police investigation. If after

:04:55.:04:54.

that, there are questions unanswered which can only be answered by

:04:55.:05:01.

that, there are questions unanswered public inquiry, or which require

:05:02.:05:02.

resources that can only be commanded by a public inquiry, I could see the

:05:03.:05:05.

case for going down that road. I fear that sometimes in this country

:05:06.:05:11.

we invest almost supernatural powers in what a public inquiry can do. I

:05:12.:05:15.

wonder whether there is another example of a country that goes

:05:16.:05:19.

through this stale ritual every few years of a scandal emerging, the

:05:20.:05:23.

opposition calling for an inquiry, the Government saying no and then

:05:24.:05:26.

holding the line or giving in. I don't know what we think this

:05:27.:05:30.

inquiries can do. It comes back to your point, Helen, you should be

:05:31.:05:35.

careful what you call an inquiry on so it doesn't devalue the concept.

:05:36.:05:41.

On Thursday up to a million public sector workers - including teachers,

:05:42.:05:43.

firemen and council workers - will go on strike.

:05:44.:05:45.

Their unions have differing gripes but the fact they're all striking

:05:46.:05:48.

on the same day is designed to send a strong message to the government.

:05:49.:05:50.

As the economy picks up again they're demanding an end

:05:51.:05:52.

Growth has returned strongly to the UK economy

:05:53.:05:58.

and unemployment is at its lowest level for more than five years.

:05:59.:06:02.

So why is there still talk of austerity

:06:03.:06:04.

The deficit is coming down but much more slowly than the government

:06:05.:06:09.

And accumulated deficits - the national debt -

:06:10.:06:16.

The UK is now in hock to the tune of ?1.3 trillion - and rising.

:06:17.:06:25.

In fact, we're only 40% of the way through George Osborne's planned

:06:26.:06:28.

austerity, with the chancellor now saying he won't manage to balance

:06:29.:06:31.

Unions are now rebelling against tight pay controls.

:06:32.:06:37.

Since 2010, average public sector pay, which goes to about 1 in 5

:06:38.:06:41.

Over the same period, prices increased by 16% -

:06:42.:06:48.

meaning the average public sector worker saw their pay squeezed

:06:49.:06:52.

Going head-to-head on the public sector strikes and austerity -

:06:53.:07:00.

the general secretary of the TUC Frances O'Grady, and Conservative

:07:01.:07:03.

We have seen it, public sector pay squeezed by 9% under the Coalition

:07:04.:07:22.

Government. Isn't it time to take your foot off the brake a bit? I

:07:23.:07:28.

don't think it is the right time to let go of the public finances at

:07:29.:07:33.

all. We were always clear that this is what's called a structural

:07:34.:07:37.

deficit, it doesn't go away just because the growth is returning and

:07:38.:07:42.

the economy is coming back. We have protected and are protecting the

:07:43.:07:46.

lowest paid public sector workers who weren't part of the pay freeze

:07:47.:07:53.

and now pay going up by 1%. These are difficult decisions. We have had

:07:54.:07:58.

that discussion many times. They are necessary in order to keep that plan

:07:59.:08:03.

on track and as we can see in the wider economy, it is working.

:08:04.:08:06.

People's living standards will have to continue to fall if you are in

:08:07.:08:11.

the public sector? We need to keep public spending under control and

:08:12.:08:15.

pay restraint is one of the main ways of being able... The answer is

:08:16.:08:19.

yes? The answer is this is necessary. The answer is yes, this

:08:20.:08:22.

is necessary. It isn't because we want to. We have to. This strike

:08:23.:08:25.

isn't going to change the Government's mind, is it? It does

:08:26.:08:28.

seem like the Government isn't listening. We have had years... They

:08:29.:08:31.

are listening, they just don't agree. Ordinary people, including

:08:32.:08:36.

those in the public sector, are finding it really tough. What really

:08:37.:08:38.

sticks in the throat is the idea that money can

:08:39.:08:44.

sticks in the throat is the idea cuts to billionaires, to

:08:45.:08:44.

millionaires and to cuts to billionaires, to

:08:45.:08:47.

corporations. But it can't cuts to billionaires, to

:08:48.:08:53.

to help 500,000 workers in local government, dinner ladies, school

:08:54.:08:58.

meal workers, lollipop men and women who are earning less than the

:08:59.:09:00.

meal workers, lollipop men and women wage. What do you say to that? We

:09:01.:09:03.

have protected those who are the least well-paid in the public

:09:04.:09:07.

sector. But this is about a long-term... How can you? Hold on.

:09:08.:09:09.

You have said you long-term... How can you? Hold on.

:09:10.:09:12.

them. This long-term... How can you? Hold on.

:09:13.:09:15.

many watching this programme, they long-term... How can you? Hold on.

:09:16.:09:19.

have had a 1% pay rise in some cases since 2010. The average gas bill is

:09:20.:09:26.

up 57%, electric bill up 22%, food costs up 16%, running a car 11%, in

:09:27.:09:32.

what way have you protected people from spending they have to make?

:09:33.:09:37.

Firstly, you read out the average increases in public sector pay. That

:09:38.:09:41.

has had the biggest impact at the top end and those at the bottom end

:09:42.:09:45.

have been best protected, as best we could. Of course, we have also taken

:09:46.:09:50.

two million people out of income tax and increased the income tax

:09:51.:09:53.

threshold which has a big positive impact. We have frozen and then cut

:09:54.:09:57.

fuel duty, which would have been 20 pence higher. I wanted to take on

:09:58.:10:02.

this point about priorities. We have got to make sure that we get the

:10:03.:10:06.

economy going at the same time and we raised more money from those at

:10:07.:10:12.

the top than we did before 2010, partly because we have encouraged

:10:13.:10:17.

them to invest. And this is a really important balance of making sure we

:10:18.:10:22.

get the books back in order, we have stability for family finances and we

:10:23.:10:26.

get the economy going. Why not spread the living wage? We know you

:10:27.:10:30.

could pay for that pay increase itself if you spread the living wage

:10:31.:10:34.

through the private sector and guarantee... The living wage being

:10:35.:10:40.

above the minimum wage? Absolutely. ?7.65 in the rest of the country,

:10:41.:10:46.

?8.80 in London. What is the answer? I'm a fan of the minimum wage. But

:10:47.:10:55.

not for public sector workers. Being able to pay low-paid workers as much

:10:56.:11:00.

as possible within the constraints of the public finances is something

:11:01.:11:02.

I have pushed very hard. The evidence we can increase the minimum

:11:03.:11:07.

wage has to be balanced which the Low Pay Commission do with the

:11:08.:11:13.

impact on the number of jobs... Even after a pay freeze for quite a while

:11:14.:11:19.

among public sector workers, they are still paid 15% on average more

:11:20.:11:27.

than those in the private sector? That is not true. It is, according

:11:28.:11:33.

to the ONS figures. I read that report this morning. If you look at

:11:34.:11:37.

the whole package, what they are saying is public service workers are

:11:38.:11:43.

worse off. Average earnings in the public sector are ?16.28 an hour

:11:44.:11:51.

compared to ?14.16 private. You are comparing apples and pears. It's the

:11:52.:11:55.

kind of jobs and the size of the workplace that people work in. They

:11:56.:11:58.

are still overall on average better off? Lower paid workers tend to be

:11:59.:12:05.

better off because unions negotiate better deals for lower paid workers.

:12:06.:12:14.

They are more unionised in the pry private sector. The public sector is

:12:15.:12:18.

worse off. This is a political strike, isn't it? There is a whole

:12:19.:12:22.

disparate range of reasons. The strike is saying that you are

:12:23.:12:25.

against this Government, that is what this is about? I this I what

:12:26.:12:30.

firefighters, local government workers and health workers who are

:12:31.:12:34.

protesting, too, alongside teachers are saying is that this Government

:12:35.:12:38.

is not listening, it is out of touch, people can't carry on having

:12:39.:12:42.

cuts in their living standards depending on benefits. When will the

:12:43.:12:47.

public sector worker ever get a real increase in their pay under a

:12:48.:12:50.

Conservative Government? Well, we certainly hope to have the books

:12:51.:12:57.

balanced by 2018. Not before then? 2018 is when we hope to be able to

:12:58.:13:02.

be in surplus. It is testament... So, no real pay increase for public

:13:03.:13:10.

sector workers before 2018? Interestingly, this isn't just about

:13:11.:13:17.

the Conservatives and the Lib Dems, the Labour Party leadership have

:13:18.:13:20.

said it is a test of their credibility that they support the

:13:21.:13:23.

squeeze on public sector pay. I look forward to them, they ought to come

:13:24.:13:27.

out and say very clearly that these strikes are wrong and they are

:13:28.:13:30.

against the strikes and stop taking union money. It is a democratic

:13:31.:13:36.

right. Hold on. They are - they think the policy of pay restraint is

:13:37.:13:40.

necessary. Alright. On this point about democracy... Ask yourself why

:13:41.:13:48.

so many ordinary decent public service workers are so fed up. They

:13:49.:13:56.

have seen so many billions of pounds wasted through outsourcing to

:13:57.:14:05.

organisations like G4 S. In Unite and UNISON the turnout in this vote

:14:06.:14:12.

was under 20%. Alright. OK. One final question... Hold on. You said

:14:13.:14:16.

millions and millions voted on this... I want to ask you this

:14:17.:14:21.

question. Is the story in the Mail on Sunday today that Mr Cameron's

:14:22.:14:26.

planning a big crackdown on the unions over balloting, is that true?

:14:27.:14:32.

Well, strikes like this... I know the cases, is it true you are going

:14:33.:14:36.

to dhang the law? Strikes like this make that argument stronger. The

:14:37.:14:39.

Conservative Party is in Government on the basis of 23% of the

:14:40.:14:44.

electorate... We have run out of time. Thank you very much.

:14:45.:14:48.

"Should Scotland be an independent country?"

:14:49.:14:51.

That's the question the people of Scotland will answer in a referendum

:14:52.:14:52.

If the polls are to be believed, the voters will answer "no".

:14:53.:14:56.

But in 2011 - ten weeks before the Holyrood elections - the polls

:14:57.:14:58.

told us that Labour was going to win and look what happened there - a

:14:59.:15:01.

Alistair Darling is leading the campaign against independnence.

:15:02.:15:06.

is one that puts the matter of independence to bed for a

:15:07.:15:27.

generation. In numerical terms, what would that be? We need a decisive

:15:28.:15:32.

result in September, I think we will get that provided we get our

:15:33.:15:36.

arguments across in the next couple of months. What would it be in

:15:37.:15:42.

figures? I am not going to put a number on it. People will look at it

:15:43.:15:48.

and say, OK, you have had two and a half years of debate and Scotland

:15:49.:15:53.

has now decided. The polls may be encouraging at the moment but I am

:15:54.:15:58.

not complacent, there is still a long way to go. Speculating... If

:15:59.:16:03.

you don't want to answer that, that is fair enough. Your side claims

:16:04.:16:08.

that a vote for independence is a vote for massive uncertainty but if

:16:09.:16:14.

it is a no vote there is lots of uncertainty too. All of the

:16:15.:16:17.

Westminster parties are promising devolution but there is no

:16:18.:16:24.

timetable, no certainty. Yes, there is. For the first time I can

:16:25.:16:30.

remember, all three parties are more or less on the same page in terms of

:16:31.:16:37.

additional powers, we already have powers in terms of policing and

:16:38.:16:41.

transport, now more powers are planned in relation to tax and

:16:42.:16:46.

welfare. But you are all saying different things. Between 2009 and

:16:47.:16:53.

2012, the three parties have slightly different proposals but

:16:54.:16:57.

they came together and there was an agreed series of reforms in relation

:16:58.:17:02.

to tax which are now on the statute book. If you go back to the

:17:03.:17:10.

devolutionary settlement in 1998, people unified around a single

:17:11.:17:14.

proposition so there is history here and these three parties have

:17:15.:17:18.

delivered and they will deliver in the event of people saying we will

:17:19.:17:24.

stay part of the UK. If Scotland vote no to independence, when will

:17:25.:17:28.

Scotland get these extra powers? I would imagine that in the general

:17:29.:17:32.

election all three parties will have something in their manifesto and you

:17:33.:17:37.

would expect to see legislation in the session of Parliament that

:17:38.:17:41.

follows that. Imagining is not certainty. Because the three parties

:17:42.:17:47.

have said this is what they will do, and it is important having said that

:17:48.:17:53.

they stick to it. If you look in the past when the Nationalists said the

:17:54.:17:57.

same thing, when they cast doubt over what would happen in 2012, we

:17:58.:18:04.

delivered. The only party that walked out of both of these

:18:05.:18:07.

discussions were the Nationalists because they are not interested in

:18:08.:18:09.

more powers, they want a because they are not interested in

:18:10.:18:13.

break. You cannot because they are not interested in

:18:14.:18:16.

Edinburgh gets more devolution that wouldn't mean fewer Scottish MPs in

:18:17.:18:22.

Westminster, can you? Nobody has any plans to reduce the number of MPs.

:18:23.:18:28.

If you step back from this moment, what people have been asked to do in

:18:29.:18:34.

September is to vote on the future of their country, Scotland, and

:18:35.:18:39.

whether we should be part of the UK. When I say part of the UK, full

:18:40.:18:43.

members of the UK with representation in the House of

:18:44.:18:46.

Commons and the institutions that affect our lives. This is a

:18:47.:18:50.

critically important vote. We want to see more decentralisation of

:18:51.:18:58.

power to Scotland, and to local authorities within Scotland, but we

:18:59.:19:03.

don't want a complete break with the uncertainties, the risks and the

:19:04.:19:08.

downright disadvantages that would throw Scotland's away if we were to

:19:09.:19:18.

make that break. The economic arguments are dominating people's

:19:19.:19:26.

thinking, the polls show, that is what is dominating at the moment.

:19:27.:19:39.

You cannot guarantee continued membership of the European Union

:19:40.:19:44.

given all the talk now about an in-out UK referendum. Firstly I

:19:45.:19:51.

don't think anyone has ever argued Scotland wouldn't get back in. The

:19:52.:19:55.

big question is the terms and conditions we would have to meet and

:19:56.:19:59.

we are applying to get into something that is established, it

:20:00.:20:04.

wouldn't be a negotiation. What we have said is there is no way Europe

:20:05.:20:09.

would let Scotland keep the rebate which Scotland has, there would be

:20:10.:20:14.

big questions over whether we have to join the euro, and other terms

:20:15.:20:21.

and conditions. The European Union does not act with any great speed,

:20:22.:20:26.

on average it takes eight and a half years to get into Europe. I don't

:20:27.:20:31.

want that uncertainty or the disadvantages that would come

:20:32.:20:36.

Scotland's away that come with losing clout in the European Union.

:20:37.:20:42.

The second point you asked me about is in relation to the UK's

:20:43.:20:47.

membership of the European Union, and if you look at polls, the

:20:48.:20:52.

majority of people still want to stay in the UK. Frankly, a lot of

:20:53.:21:03.

people on my side didn't make the argument against independence for a

:21:04.:21:07.

long time, we have been doing that over the last two and a half years

:21:08.:21:13.

and we are making progress and that is why I can say I think we will win

:21:14.:21:19.

provided we continue to get our arguments across. Similarly with the

:21:20.:21:22.

European Union, the case needs to be made because it is a powerful case.

:21:23.:21:27.

Isn't it true that the Nationalists win either way? They win if it is a

:21:28.:21:35.

yes vote, and they win if it is a no vote. They wanted devolution max so

:21:36.:21:45.

they win either way. There is a world of difference between

:21:46.:21:48.

devolution and further devolution where you remain part of the UK.

:21:49.:21:53.

There is a world of difference between that and making a break,

:21:54.:21:58.

where Scotland becomes a foreign country to the rest of the UK. You

:21:59.:22:03.

lose that security and those opportunities. You lose the same

:22:04.:22:09.

currency, the opportunity with pensions and so on. They are

:22:10.:22:17.

entitled to argue this case with passion, they want a break, but the

:22:18.:22:23.

two things are worlds apart. Gordon Brown said that the no campaign was

:22:24.:22:28.

too negative, have you adjusted to take that criticism into account?

:22:29.:22:32.

Ever since I launched this campaign over two years ago I said we would

:22:33.:22:37.

make a strong powerful case for remaining part of the UK. Look at

:22:38.:22:45.

our research, where we have had warnings from people to say that if

:22:46.:22:49.

we do well with research in Scotland we get more than our population

:22:50.:22:54.

share of the grand and we gain from that. There is a positive case but

:22:55.:22:59.

equally nobody will stop me from saying to the Nationalists, look at

:23:00.:23:03.

the assertions you make which are collapsing like skittles at the

:23:04.:23:07.

moment. Their assertions don't stand up. They assert that somehow milk

:23:08.:23:14.

and honey will be flowing. It is perfectly healthy within a

:23:15.:23:18.

referendum campaign to say that what you are saying simply isn't true.

:23:19.:23:26.

You have been negative, we all know about the so-called Cyber Nats book

:23:27.:23:41.

you compared Alex Salmond to the leader of North Korea. On! The

:23:42.:23:49.

context was that Alex Salmond was being asked why it was that UKIP had

:23:50.:23:55.

additional seat and he appeared to blame television being been doing

:23:56.:24:00.

from another country, from BBC South of the border. If you cannot have

:24:01.:24:10.

humour in a debate, heaven help us. I think it is important in this

:24:11.:24:14.

debate that people from outside politics should be allowed to have

:24:15.:24:19.

their say whatever side they are on because that will make for a far

:24:20.:24:24.

better, healthier debate. Nobody should be put in a state of fear and

:24:25.:24:29.

alarm by worrying about what will happen if they stand up. Despite the

:24:30.:24:35.

nastiness, more and more people are making a stand. We have run out of

:24:36.:24:41.

time. Thank you. I will be talking to the SNP's

:24:42.:24:47.

hippity leader, Nicola Sturgeon, next week on Sunday Politics.

:24:48.:24:54.

Scotland: For Richer or Poorer will be on BBC Two at 9pm tomorrow.

:24:55.:24:59.

Disastrous results in the European elections, it is fair to say the Lib

:25:00.:25:04.

Dems are down in the doldrums. In a moment I will be speaking to Nick

:25:05.:25:09.

Clegg, but first Emily has been asking what Lib Dems would say to

:25:10.:25:25.

the Prime -- Deputy Prime Minister on Call Clegg. Our phone in this

:25:26.:25:33.

week is the challenges facing the Liberal Democrats. They are rock

:25:34.:25:37.

bottom in the polls and have dire results in the local and European

:25:38.:25:43.

elections so what can the party do to turn things around? Get in

:25:44.:25:46.

touch, we are going straight to line one and Gareth. How much is a

:25:47.:25:53.

problem of that loss of local support? It is a massive problem

:25:54.:25:57.

because those are the building blocks of our success. The

:25:58.:26:02.

councillors who gets the case work done are also the people who go out

:26:03.:26:07.

and deliver the leaflets and knock on doors. Interesting, and it is not

:26:08.:26:14.

just local support the party has lost, is it? In the next general

:26:15.:26:19.

election there are some big-name Liberal Democrat MPs standing down

:26:20.:26:23.

like Malcolm Bruce and Ming Campbell, how much of a problem will

:26:24.:26:33.

that be? That is a real challenge and we have some of our brightest

:26:34.:26:38.

and best reaching an age of maturity at the same moment so that is quite

:26:39.:26:44.

an additional test in what will be a difficult election anyway. So how

:26:45.:26:48.

does the party need to position itself to win back support? Let's go

:26:49.:26:55.

to Chris online free, has the party got its strategy right? There is

:26:56.:27:00.

always a danger of appearing to be a party that merely dilutes Labour or

:27:01.:27:07.

dilutes the Conservatives. We have a of is serious, positive messages and

:27:08.:27:12.

we need to get those across in the next election because

:27:13.:27:14.

we need to get those across in the people will vote for the Tories.

:27:15.:27:19.

Nick, what do you think of the party's message at the moment? I

:27:20.:27:25.

have had a look at early draft of our manifesto and there is some good

:27:26.:27:30.

stuff in there but the authors are probably too interested in what may

:27:31.:27:35.

think we have achieved in the last five years and not really focusing

:27:36.:27:40.

on what the voters will want to be hearing about the next five years.

:27:41.:28:09.

Perhaps they should get out more and test some of these messages on the

:28:10.:28:12.

doorstep. So you want to see the top ranks of the party on the doorstep.

:28:13.:28:16.

Gareth online one also wants to make a point about the manifesto. There

:28:17.:28:20.

is clearly a problem somewhere near the top and there are some people

:28:21.:28:25.

who seem to be obsessed with power for power's sake, and happy with a

:28:26.:28:29.

timid offer but the Liberal Democrats want to change things. We

:28:30.:28:34.

are running out of time so let's try to squeeze one more call in. What

:28:35.:28:39.

are your thoughts on the long-term future of the party? I think serious

:28:40.:28:44.

long-term danger is that the party could be relegated to the fringes of

:28:45.:28:49.

the UK and no longer being a national party. We have gone back

:28:50.:28:53.

decades if that happens because for many years we have been represented

:28:54.:28:56.

in every part of the country at some level and we have got to rescue

:28:57.:28:59.

ourselves from that. Some interesting views but we are going

:29:00.:29:03.

to have to wait until the general election next year to find out how

:29:04.:29:08.

well the Lib Dems face up to these challenges. Thanks for listening, we

:29:09.:29:12.

are going to finish with an old classic now.

:29:13.:29:15.

# I'm sorry, I'm sorry... #. Nick Clegg, welcome to the

:29:16.:29:17.

programme. I want to come onto your situation in a minute but as you

:29:18.:29:22.

will have seen in the papers, there is mounting concern over and

:29:23.:29:24.

historic Westminster paedophile ring, and files relating to it

:29:25.:29:26.

mysteriously disappearing. Why are you against a full public enquiry

:29:27.:29:31.

into this? I wouldn't rule anything out. I think we should do anything

:29:32.:29:40.

it takes to uncover this and achieve justice.

:29:41.:29:55.

delivered, even all these many years later. How do you do it? There is an

:29:56.:30:00.

inquiry in the Home Office about what's happened to these documents,

:30:01.:30:04.

serious questions need to be asked about what happened in the Home

:30:05.:30:08.

Office and those questions need to be answered. There are inquiries in

:30:09.:30:12.

the BBC, in the NHS and most importantly of all the police are

:30:13.:30:16.

looking into the places where this abuse was alleged to have taken

:30:17.:30:22.

place. All I would say is, let's make sure that justice is delivered,

:30:23.:30:27.

truth is uncovered and I think that the way to do that, as we have seen,

:30:28.:30:32.

is by allowing the police to get on with their work. You say that, but

:30:33.:30:36.

there are only seven police involved in this inquiry. There are 195

:30:37.:30:41.

involved in the hacking investigations. We can both agree

:30:42.:30:44.

that child abuse is more important and serious than hacking. The Home

:30:45.:30:49.

Office, there are reports that Home Office officials may have been

:30:50.:30:52.

mentioned in the dossier, people don't trust people to investigate

:30:53.:30:59.

themselves, Mr Clegg? No, I accept that we need to make sure that - and

:31:00.:31:02.

the police need to make sure that the police investigations are

:31:03.:31:06.

thorough, well resourced. I can't think of anything more horrendous, I

:31:07.:31:11.

can't, than powerful people organising themselves and worse

:31:12.:31:14.

still, this is what is alleged, covering up for each other to abuse

:31:15.:31:18.

the most vulnerable people in society's care - children. But at

:31:19.:31:23.

the end of the day, the only way you can get people in the dock, the only

:31:24.:31:28.

way you can get people charged, is by allowing the prosecuting

:31:29.:31:31.

authorities and the police to do their job. I have an open mind about

:31:32.:31:36.

what other inquiries take place. A number of other inquiries are taking

:31:37.:31:40.

place. I assume any additional inquiries wouldn't be able to second

:31:41.:31:43.

guess or look into the matters which the police are looking into already.

:31:44.:31:47.

All I would say is that people who have information, who want to

:31:48.:31:50.

provide information which they think is relevant to this, please get in

:31:51.:31:53.

touch with the police. Alright. Let's come on to our own inquiry

:31:54.:31:59.

into the state of the Lib Dems. You have attempted to distance yourself

:32:00.:32:03.

and the party from the Tories, but still stay in Government - it is

:32:04.:32:07.

called aggressive differentiation. Why isn't it working? It's not

:32:08.:32:12.

called aggressive differentiation. It is called "coalition". It is two

:32:13.:32:18.

parties who retain different identities, different values, have

:32:19.:32:21.

different aspirations for the future. But during this Parliament

:32:22.:32:25.

have come together because we were facing a unique national emergency

:32:26.:32:29.

back in 2010, the economy was teetering on the edge of a

:32:30.:32:33.

precipice. I'm immensely proud, notwithstanding our political

:32:34.:32:36.

challenges, which are real, I'm immensely proud that the Liberal

:32:37.:32:38.

Democrats, we stepped up to the plate, held our nerve and without

:32:39.:32:41.

the Liberal Democrats, there wouldn't now be that economic

:32:42.:32:45.

recovery which is helping many people across the country. Why

:32:46.:32:48.

aren't you getting any credit for it? Well, we won't get credit if we

:32:49.:32:56.

spend all our time staring at our navals. If it wasn't for the Liberal

:32:57.:32:59.

Democrats, there wouldn't be more jobs now available to people. They

:33:00.:33:04.

don't believe you, they are giving the Tories the credit for the

:33:05.:33:12.

recovery? Well, you might assert that, we will assert and I will

:33:13.:33:16.

shout it from the rooftops that if we had not created the stability by

:33:17.:33:22.

forming this Coalition Government and then hard-wired into the

:33:23.:33:25.

Government's plans, not only the gory job of fixing the public

:33:26.:33:28.

finances, but doing so much more fairly than would have been the

:33:29.:33:31.

case, if the Conservatives had been in Government on their own, they

:33:32.:33:35.

wouldn't have delivered these tax cuts. They wouldn't have delivered

:33:36.:33:40.

the triple lock guarantee for pensions or the pupil premium. OK.

:33:41.:33:47.

Why are you 8% in the polls? Well, because I think where we get our

:33:48.:33:52.

message across - and I am here in my own constituency - this is a

:33:53.:34:02.

constituency where I am a campaigning MP - we can dispel a lot

:34:03.:34:07.

of the information and say we have done a decent thing by going into

:34:08.:34:11.

Government and we have delivered big changes, big reforms which you can

:34:12.:34:15.

touch and see in your school, in your pensions, in your taxes and

:34:16.:34:21.

then people do support us and, in our areas of strength, we were

:34:22.:34:25.

winning against both the Conservative and Labour parties. It

:34:26.:34:28.

is a big effort. Of course, there are lots of people from both left

:34:29.:34:32.

and right who want to shout us down and want to vilify our role in

:34:33.:34:36.

Government. What we also need to do - and Nick Harvey was quite right -

:34:37.:34:41.

having been proud of our record of delivery, we also need to set out in

:34:42.:34:46.

our manifesto as we are and as we will our promise of more, of more

:34:47.:34:52.

support in schools. So why is it then... Why is it then that a Lib

:34:53.:34:59.

Dem MP in our own film says you are in danger of no longer becoming a

:35:00.:35:04.

National Party. That could be the Clegg legacy, you cease to be a

:35:05.:35:10.

National Party? I'm a practical man. I believe passionately in what we

:35:11.:35:14.

have done in politics. I am so proud of my party. I don't spend that much

:35:15.:35:17.

time speculating that the end might be nigh. There is no point in doing

:35:18.:35:21.

that. Let's get out there, which is what I do in my own constituency, in

:35:22.:35:27.

challenges circumstances and say we are proud of what we have done, we

:35:28.:35:30.

have done a good thing for the country, we have delivered more

:35:31.:35:33.

Liberal Democrat policies than the party has ever dreamed delivering

:35:34.:35:37.

before. We have a programme of change, of reform, of liberal

:35:38.:35:41.

reform, which is very exciting. Just over the last few weeks, I have been

:35:42.:35:45.

setting out our plans to provide more help to carers, to make sure

:35:46.:35:49.

teachers in every classroom are properly qualified, that all kids in

:35:50.:35:54.

school are being taught a proper core curriculum. That parts company

:35:55.:36:00.

from the ideological rigidities with which the Conservatives deal with

:36:01.:36:03.

education policy. Those are thing which speak to many of the values

:36:04.:36:08.

that people who support us... Alright. When Mike Storey gets out

:36:09.:36:14.

and about, he told this programme two weeks' ago that he finds that

:36:15.:36:22.

you "are toxic on the doorstep". Look, as everybody knows, being the

:36:23.:36:26.

leader of a party, which for the first time in its history goes into

:36:27.:36:29.

Government, which is already a controversial thing to do because

:36:30.:36:34.

you are governing with our enemies, the Conservatives, and on top of

:36:35.:36:38.

that, doing all the difficult and unpopular things to fix the broken

:36:39.:36:41.

economy which was left to us by Labour, of course as leader of that

:36:42.:36:45.

party I get a lot of incoming fire from right and left. The right say

:36:46.:36:49.

that I'm stopping the Conservatives doing what they want. There is a

:36:50.:36:52.

good reason for that. They didn't win the election. The left say that

:36:53.:36:57.

somehow we have lost our soul when we haven't. That happens day in, day

:36:58.:37:01.

out. Of course that will have some effect. My answer to that is not to

:37:02.:37:06.

buckle to those criticisms, those misplaced Chris -- criticisms from

:37:07.:37:13.

left and right, but to stand up proudly. Is it your intention to

:37:14.:37:20.

fight the next election against an in-out referendum on Europe? Yes.

:37:21.:37:25.

Unless there is major treaty change? Our position hasn't waivered, it

:37:26.:37:30.

won't waiver, we are not going to flip-flop on the issue of the

:37:31.:37:33.

referendum like the Conservatives did. We want an in-out referendum.

:37:34.:37:37.

With ve legislated for the trigger when that will happen, when in u

:37:38.:37:40.

powers are transferred to the European Union. That is what we have

:37:41.:37:44.

said for years. We legislated for that... So no change? No change.

:37:45.:37:51.

Alright. We are expecting a reshuffle shortly. Will you keep

:37:52.:37:54.

Vince Cable as Business Secretary to the election? I'm immensely proud of

:37:55.:38:02.

what Vince has done. Yes, I intend to make sure that Vince continues to

:38:03.:38:07.

serve in the Government in his present capacity Look what he has

:38:08.:38:10.

done on apprenticeships, he's done more than many people for many years

:38:11.:38:14.

to make sure we build-up manufacturing, the north here, not

:38:15.:38:17.

just the south. I'm proud of what he's done. We have talked about some

:38:18.:38:23.

heavy things. We know you have got into kickboxing. Is there any danger

:38:24.:38:28.

of you becoming a mammal - you know what I mean - a middle-aged man in

:38:29.:38:33.

Lycra! Will the Tour de France influence you? Absolutely no risk of

:38:34.:38:43.

that whatsoever having seen the Tour de France start yesterday near

:38:44.:38:48.

Leeds. I have the yellow Yorkshire sign on my pullover. I will see them

:38:49.:38:53.

later whisk through my constituency. I will not try to emulate them. I'm

:38:54.:38:57.

sure that is to the relief of a grateful nation. Thank you.

:38:58.:39:01.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:39:02.:39:04.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

:39:05.:39:08.

for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in 20 minutes,

:39:09.:39:10.

the Week Ahead. First

:39:11.:39:22.

Welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. Talks are dead in

:39:23.:39:30.

the water, we ask if executive business will be a casual list of

:39:31.:39:38.

Unionist protest. Joining me on ministers from the Ulster Unionists

:39:39.:39:41.

and Alliance Party 's. John McAllister takes his leave of 921,

:39:42.:39:47.

we look back at the political romance that went sour. He joins me

:39:48.:39:55.

alive. My guests are two journalists.

:39:56.:40:07.

The talks collapsed after 24 hours, the North-South ministerial meetings

:40:08.:40:13.

where respond. The fallout so far from the Parades Commission

:40:14.:40:18.

determination. They wanted to what past the Ardoyne shops on the 4th of

:40:19.:40:26.

July. -- the 12th of July. It is unclear if that will happen. Are the

:40:27.:40:31.

basic functions of government going to fall victim to these latest wave

:40:32.:40:38.

of protests? Danny Kennedy and Stephen Ferry join me this morning.

:40:39.:40:44.

There is obviously crucial work to be done this week for all the people

:40:45.:40:49.

of Northern Ireland. Can you reassure people watching this

:40:50.:40:54.

programme that unlike the talks at the ministerial Council, that will

:40:55.:40:59.

not be impacted by this new pan you nursed action? I have ministers in

:41:00.:41:14.

the executive. We were working on issues last week. I had a meeting

:41:15.:41:18.

with the Transport Minister discussing issues of mutual

:41:19.:41:23.

concern. The work of the executive ministers and the work of everything

:41:24.:41:37.

related to the governance of the country is continuing. I hope the

:41:38.:41:44.

executive will proceed to deal with the normal business. It will also

:41:45.:41:51.

deal with the issue of today, the Ardoyne parade. We have got to read

:41:52.:42:01.

as an executive with those issues. I would ask for that matter to be

:42:02.:42:05.

fully discussed around the executive table. Why is that an executive

:42:06.:42:13.

issue? Because it is of vital importance to the stability and

:42:14.:42:18.

public order and all the issues we are aware of. Why wouldn't the

:42:19.:42:22.

executive what to discuss the issue of the day that is dominating

:42:23.:42:28.

discussion at the moment. I think there is an opportunity. I am

:42:29.:42:33.

interested to see how the other parties react. What happens if your

:42:34.:42:39.

executive colleagues do not want to discuss this? I would be astonished.

:42:40.:42:52.

That those at the top of government level would not

:42:53.:42:53.

That those at the top of government these issues. Danny is free to break

:42:54.:43:01.

it up. If he does there will be a discussion about that. We had talks

:43:02.:43:09.

last week where Danny's party walked out and the DUP. Over a

:43:10.:43:19.

last week where Danny's party walked one particular parade, people will

:43:20.:43:22.

walk away from the table rather than discuss the future of parades. We

:43:23.:43:29.

have to bear in mind that there are established procedures to deal

:43:30.:43:33.

have to bear in mind that there are Commission. People may not like

:43:34.:43:34.

that, Commission. People may not like

:43:35.:43:40.

that there has to be a referee like in the World Cup. We

:43:41.:43:45.

that there has to be a referee like agreement. They are the only sure in

:43:46.:43:49.

town, they are the only law, we have to respect their decisions. Can we

:43:50.:43:57.

discussed this issue. You were pressed on this on Thursday, but she

:43:58.:44:01.

walked out. Now you want to put this on the agenda on Tuesday for the

:44:02.:44:06.

executive meeting. There is a difference between all-party

:44:07.:44:11.

negotiations and executive business. I think we do have to deal with the

:44:12.:44:17.

here and now. It is very interesting that Stephen seems to be indicating

:44:18.:44:21.

that he doesn't want to talk about this specific case of Ardoyne and

:44:22.:44:28.

the way we are approaching it. People will find that astonishing

:44:29.:44:33.

from senior parties and senior politicians because it is one thing

:44:34.:44:37.

to be in discussions and negotiations about longer-term

:44:38.:44:44.

solutions, and those talks are about longer-term solutions for that, but

:44:45.:44:49.

we are in the here and now. We are at a difficult and challenging

:44:50.:44:54.

point. Why cannot politicians at the highest level working in Northern

:44:55.:44:59.

Ireland now want to engage? I am happy to have a discussion. We have

:45:00.:45:08.

to give their place and give them... They have not been given

:45:09.:45:12.

their place now and they are now off the agenda. You going to take that

:45:13.:45:22.

on Tuesday? Let's make a linkage between the economic and financial

:45:23.:45:25.

costs on what is happening with parades on a wider policies. It is

:45:26.:45:33.

costing towers -- is ?10 million on police. Who knows what will happen

:45:34.:45:38.

in the next week with what will happen on the streets, what will be

:45:39.:45:45.

the direct financial costs? What are the political consequences

:45:46.:45:49.

potentially of this graduated response that the joint Unionist

:45:50.:45:55.

statement that was issued on Thursday? What can we expect to see

:45:56.:46:04.

happen in the next couple of weeks? It will depend on progress of the

:46:05.:46:08.

lack of it. It will be a graduated response. Not necessarily an

:46:09.:46:14.

accelerated response. Is there a template or are you just making this

:46:15.:46:20.

up on the roof? No, we're not making this up on the hoof. We want to see

:46:21.:46:25.

progress on all these issues, that is important. It will be interesting

:46:26.:46:34.

to see who is against it. Who wants to see progress on resolving the

:46:35.:46:41.

Ardoyne issue. Before I go back to Stephen Ferry, in the meantime, is

:46:42.:46:45.

the message from you as a senior member of the Ulster Unionist Party,

:46:46.:46:50.

that you do not want to see this issue brought up in the streets? Our

:46:51.:46:54.

preference is that Google is not brought up in the streets, that it

:46:55.:47:03.

is resolved. The graduated response is creating stability --

:47:04.:47:07.

instability. People do not know what it means. There is a danger here. We

:47:08.:47:15.

have to establish that are executive collectively can work, ministers

:47:16.:47:20.

individually may be doing a good job, there is the image of

:47:21.:47:27.

dysfunction. That has not been challenged. You see the institutions

:47:28.:47:33.

are imperilled by what you have heard in the past? It is premature

:47:34.:47:42.

to say. There is signs in terms of the rhetoric that has been used,

:47:43.:47:47.

there is a degree of uncertainty out there. It is not just a case of

:47:48.:47:51.

whether the institutions will stay, we need to change gears and the

:47:52.:47:58.

executive has to be seen to be delivering. The institutions have

:47:59.:48:02.

been put under threat by the behaviour of the Parades Commission

:48:03.:48:06.

and those who threaten the Parades Commission, do you agree with that?

:48:07.:48:17.

It is completely wrong. Peter Robinson said this, do you agree?

:48:18.:48:26.

What I am more interested in is finding a resolution around the

:48:27.:48:35.

executive tables and is -- at executive level. As part of the

:48:36.:48:41.

graduated response, you will wrap things up and that could mean

:48:42.:48:44.

bringing people out onto the streets. Maybe your preference will

:48:45.:48:50.

come to be? I am not going to predict forthcoming events. What I

:48:51.:48:53.

want to do is deal with the here and now and the best way of dealing that

:48:54.:48:59.

in my view and in the view of my party is to have these discussions

:49:00.:49:04.

fully heard, there is accessed through the Unionist party, they

:49:05.:49:11.

would have opinions through the Orange Order, accessed through Sinn

:49:12.:49:19.

Fein. I think those issues need to be seriously challenged and

:49:20.:49:22.

explored. We will leave it there. Let's get some response from my

:49:23.:49:29.

guests of the day. Leon, do you get a sense that we are heading down a

:49:30.:49:36.

one way street with this? I do not think it is for certain yet. Peter

:49:37.:49:42.

Robinson has threatened the collapse of the institutions before. When we

:49:43.:49:49.

get into this territory, eventually you could topple it. I think it is

:49:50.:49:54.

unlikely we will have a resolution to this issue. You would like to

:49:55.:49:59.

thank the executive could put out of joint statement calling for peace.

:50:00.:50:07.

That is not going to be forthcoming. Suzanne, do you think it is

:50:08.:50:12.

reasonable that the executive discuss this as part of the agenda

:50:13.:50:19.

on Tuesday? Yes, of course it is reasonable. It is this is that

:50:20.:50:26.

looking at other political debates over recent days, our politicians do

:50:27.:50:32.

not look like they are members of government. They look like critters

:50:33.:50:36.

of government. They look like participants way they have been

:50:37.:50:42.

fighting. There is disappointment -- disagreements within parties. I

:50:43.:50:47.

could not picture Nick Clegg by David Cameron arguing over what is

:50:48.:50:51.

such a minor matter, a six minute walk down a road. Really, it is the

:50:52.:50:58.

politics of the playground, they really need to grow up. Do you think

:50:59.:51:05.

there are unionists who want to call at the institutions to trigger new

:51:06.:51:11.

elections? I think that is something they are contemplating but I am not

:51:12.:51:16.

sure it would be a good outcome for the DUP if they were collapsed. I

:51:17.:51:19.

would think they would want to hold back on that for a while. Thank you

:51:20.:51:30.

very much. There was one party that lost its whole group. John

:51:31.:51:35.

McAllister finally quit. It was described as the most toxic

:51:36.:51:42.

experience of his life. With a possible investigation by the

:51:43.:51:44.

assembly standards commission for alleged inappropriate sexual

:51:45.:51:49.

behaviour hanging over him. In a moment we will hear from John

:51:50.:51:55.

McAllister. First we look at how the fledgling party imploded so

:51:56.:51:59.

spectacularly and asks if it has any future at all. It began well.

:52:00.:52:06.

It promised the politics of change. What are they about?

:52:07.:52:43.

Now they are together now more. For lights and spectacular not even John

:52:44.:52:50.

McAllister and the former party the Ulster Unionists ever match that.

:52:51.:52:55.

How did it happen? Even early on there were differences over how N121

:52:56.:53:00.

would operate. John McAllister said he's it is a political party. But

:53:01.:53:09.

the wheels came off when this former N121 employee made allegations of

:53:10.:53:13.

sexually inappropriate behaviour against Basil McAfee in, allegations

:53:14.:53:19.

he denies. John McAllister instigated an investigation. That

:53:20.:53:22.

investigation has now been halted instigated an investigation. That

:53:23.:53:36.

disappointed about how her complaint was handled. They are in the

:53:37.:53:40.

disappointed about how her complaint of sanding them into the

:53:41.:53:48.

Commissioner for standards. She is confident this is the correct route

:53:49.:53:53.

to follow. It is for Mr Bean to decide if Mr McRae has committed a

:53:54.:53:58.

breach of the members code of conduct. So how is all of this going

:53:59.:54:05.

down with those who still believe in the N121 dream? The only candidate

:54:06.:54:10.

to get elected at the recent council elections was asked. I stood for

:54:11.:54:19.

election for N121. I believe in the dream of N121. There is no other

:54:20.:54:27.

place for me before the election. Does the party have a future? Of

:54:28.:54:32.

course, there is a band of people working with the core of the party

:54:33.:54:37.

to build it up. I am not going to lie to you and say to you there has

:54:38.:54:41.

not been series issues over the past month. There are a core of people

:54:42.:54:44.

working hard to build this party up to be weighed it should be. Others

:54:45.:54:50.

have given up. This council candidate was part of the Queen's

:54:51.:54:56.

Birthday University N121 party which recently folded. We thought it was

:54:57.:55:03.

unacceptable for them to be reacting in such a way. We at them to leave.

:55:04.:55:11.

Have you left? Yes. Has it that the mob politics? The ice behind --

:55:12.:55:26.

ideas behind N121 were good. I might join another political party. For

:55:27.:55:31.

Johnny McCarthy, the dream leaves on. -- lives on. There are so many

:55:32.:55:41.

people convinced by a strong Northern Ireland state. Whatever

:55:42.:55:48.

person, whatever brand is behind that, doesn't really matter. That

:55:49.:55:53.

dream is still there. N121 have not just lost an MLA, John McAllister's

:55:54.:55:59.

going means goodbye to almost ?30,000 in assembly funding. One

:56:00.:56:03.

thing that is remarkable about N121 is when a party that has only been

:56:04.:56:09.

around for one year, it has had a remarkable impact for all the wrong

:56:10.:56:13.

reasons. If you take a look at what has happened is recently in the last

:56:14.:56:18.

few months, they have managed to tarnish the brand, they have managed

:56:19.:56:22.

to tarnish any prospect of coming back. That is a more -- remarkable

:56:23.:56:28.

feat for a party. As for Basil McCrea, he is considering legal

:56:29.:56:34.

action, but against two it is unclear. We asked for an interview

:56:35.:56:37.

but he declined saying he had a story to tell, but now was not the

:56:38.:56:44.

time. As for John McAllister, is he the man who put principle before a

:56:45.:56:50.

promising political career? I am pleased that you think I had a

:56:51.:57:02.

promising political career. I can certainly live with that comment.

:57:03.:57:09.

promising political career. I can people said I put principle before

:57:10.:57:12.

my career, I do not think it is a bad thing. For now the party goes on

:57:13.:57:17.

but with vastly reduced expectations. It is our intention as

:57:18.:57:22.

onstage to form the government of Northern Ireland. You could say it

:57:23.:57:27.

will be Alister McRae for first Minister? You could say that. He has

:57:28.:57:34.

possibly restart that for now. Until his beaks for himself, we can only

:57:35.:57:38.

guess. John McAllister joins me now. N121,

:57:39.:57:44.

in government for Northern Ireland. Basil saying that he could be the

:57:45.:57:50.

tension lay the first Minister. There are so many things that went

:57:51.:57:55.

on in N121. The organisation stuff wasn't there, it wasn't good, though

:57:56.:58:02.

but the key bit was how do you deal and has N121 the capacity to deal

:58:03.:58:08.

with the allegations made against Basil McCrea? That has to work

:58:09.:58:21.

through. That is going to take time. There was no organisation, no

:58:22.:58:26.

political party can ignore those kinds of allegations being levelled

:58:27.:58:30.

of any member of the party. That was perhaps the straw that broke the

:58:31.:58:34.

camel's back. There were other disagreements between you both

:58:35.:58:39.

before that happened. After so much hope, it has ended in tears. I agree

:58:40.:58:49.

that it is part of... There were other problems. The seriousness of

:58:50.:58:53.

allegations like that, any party, any organisation has to find a

:58:54.:59:00.

mechanism to deal with that. That has moved to the commission for

:59:01.:59:04.

standards. You cannot ignore those kinds of allegations and I would

:59:05.:59:10.

suggest at any time, never mind in the era that we live in today. Do

:59:11.:59:14.

you regret having taken so much on with your relationship with Basil

:59:15.:59:22.

McCrea? Yes, I regret that because the messages of N121, the principles

:59:23.:59:27.

and values I wrote for N121, the road that I set out for N121, to

:59:28.:59:33.

build a new society with a new government and opposition. If you

:59:34.:59:37.

change the structure is in Stormont and how that starts to deliver. That

:59:38.:59:43.

is what N121 would have been about. If Basil did the style off two, I

:59:44.:59:56.

did the substance. We never built a party, but the final implosion was

:59:57.:00:02.

not about these structures are what we built, it was about how do you

:00:03.:00:05.

deal with allegations against a party leader in that term? The N121

:00:06.:00:13.

does not have the capacity to deal with that. That is why we had to go

:00:14.:00:20.

out. Does N121 have a future? That is not now for me to comment on. Do

:00:21.:00:26.

you think it might have a future's I do not think it has a future

:00:27.:00:31.

personally. Do you think Basil is clinging to the wreckage? Yes, I

:00:32.:00:41.

think he is. What is your comment as you sit in the backbench's do not

:00:42.:00:49.

start a party with Basil McCrea. If you asked me how do you build around

:00:50.:00:54.

the ideas of that and the structure and move on from that. It is about

:00:55.:01:02.

promoting ideas and putting our party in opposition to the

:01:03.:01:06.

government. Will you stand for election again? Yes. In South so we

:01:07.:01:10.

have election again? Yes. In South so we

:01:11.:01:16.

McAllister? No. We will have some final thoughts. Suzanne,

:01:17.:01:21.

McAllister? No. We will have some think there is a future

:01:22.:01:23.

McAllister? No. We will have some No. The story is not over. We need

:01:24.:01:30.

be told and he has to clear his name. That will be interesting and

:01:31.:01:35.

that is part of the jigsaw that is missing. It is not about who is

:01:36.:01:40.

right or wrong. So much damage has been done to N121 that it it is

:01:41.:01:53.

over. What is amusing is that the backstabbing and gossip that has

:01:54.:01:58.

been going on, is that it is not women, it is men. It is not waving,

:01:59.:02:09.

it is groaning at the moment. We will see every Basil McCrea talks in

:02:10.:02:12.

before that started. I wish we had longer for that. It is all over to

:02:13.:02:16.

you. What will Thursday's mass

:02:17.:02:20.

public sector strike achieve? Has David Cameron's anti-Juncker

:02:21.:02:22.

attacks clawed back support And is Alan Johnson really thinking

:02:23.:02:25.

about challenging Ed Miliband We will start with the strikes, Matt

:02:26.:02:47.

Hancock was hardline in the head-to-head that he did with the

:02:48.:02:52.

TUC. I guess that the Tory internal polling and focus groups must be

:02:53.:02:57.

telling them that there are votes in taking a tough line? There is that

:02:58.:03:00.

and there is the fact that they are now much more confident on any

:03:01.:03:07.

economic policy two or three years ago. They shied away from it because

:03:08.:03:14.

the economy was shrinking, there was still a danger that public sector

:03:15.:03:18.

job losses would lead to higher unemployment overall. Now, the

:03:19.:03:23.

economy is growing, they have a good story to sell about employment so

:03:24.:03:28.

they are much more bolshy and brazen than they were two or three years

:03:29.:03:32.

ago. They know that it always causes problems for Labour. Labour is

:03:33.:03:37.

naturally sympathetic to the public sector workers, pay being squeezed,

:03:38.:03:42.

they are striking to make an issue of it. And yet they can't quite come

:03:43.:03:47.

out and give the unions 100% Labour support? Exactly. You saw Tristram

:03:48.:03:52.

Hunt on the Marr Show this morning squirming to support the idea of

:03:53.:03:55.

strikes, but not this particular strike. It was always the question

:03:56.:03:58.

that gets asked to Labour - who funds you? That is a real problem.

:03:59.:04:02.

The bit that gets me is they trail this ef are I time there is a --

:04:03.:04:06.

every time there is a strike, this idea of cutting it to ballots and

:04:07.:04:12.

local election turnout was a third. Boris Johnson was elected Mayor of

:04:13.:04:16.

London with 38% turnout. We need to talk about-turnout across our

:04:17.:04:22.

democracy. That is an easy rebuttal for Labour to make. Matt Hancock was

:04:23.:04:27.

hardline about changing the strike law. When you asked him the

:04:28.:04:32.

question, if you are not going to stabilise the public finances till

:04:33.:04:35.

2018, does this mean the pay freeze or no real term pay increase in the

:04:36.:04:40.

public sector will increase till 2018, h e was inner vous on that

:04:41.:04:47.

one. -- he was nervous on that one. This strike is different to those

:04:48.:04:51.

strikes that took place in 2010. At that time, the TUC and the Labour

:04:52.:04:54.

Leadership thought there was going to be a great movement out there,

:04:55.:05:00.

not a kind of 1926 movement, but a great movement out there. This time

:05:01.:05:05.

round, I think the climate is different. Ed Miliband talking about

:05:06.:05:11.

wage increases being outstripped by inflation and people not seeing the

:05:12.:05:15.

recovery coming through into their pay packets. Slightly more tricky

:05:16.:05:23.

territory for the Tories. If The Labour machine cannot make something

:05:24.:05:27.

out of Matt Hancock telling this programme there will be no increase

:05:28.:05:34.

in pay for workers in the public sector till 2018, they have a

:05:35.:05:37.

problem? They do have a problem. They have to say always that they

:05:38.:05:40.

would not just turn the money taps on. That is the dance that you are

:05:41.:05:45.

locked in all the time. Can we all agree that Alan Johnson is not going

:05:46.:05:48.

to stand against Ed Miliband this side of the election? Some

:05:49.:05:57.

politicians are cynical enough. I don't think Alan Johnson is one. Do

:05:58.:06:02.

we agree? There is nothing in it for Labour and certainly not for Alan

:06:03.:06:06.

Johnson. No way. It is the last thing he would want to do. There are

:06:07.:06:11.

some desperate members going around trying to find a stalking horse.

:06:12.:06:15.

Alan Johnson will not be their man. He has more important things to do

:06:16.:06:19.

on a Thursday night on BBC One! Isn't it something about the febrile

:06:20.:06:24.

state of the Labour Party that Labour, some Labour backbenchers or

:06:25.:06:29.

in the Shadow Cabinet, can float the idea of this nonsense? If there was

:06:30.:06:34.

a time to do it, maybe it was in the middle of the Parliament. With ten

:06:35.:06:37.

months left, you are stuck with the leader you chose in 2010. I remember

:06:38.:06:41.

them failing to understand this in January of 2010 when there was that

:06:42.:06:49.

last push against Gordon Brown. Five months before an election, they were

:06:50.:07:01.

trying to do something. The deputy Leader of the Labour Party had

:07:02.:07:05.

something to do with it. There is deep unease about Ed Miliband. There

:07:06.:07:13.

are problems but Alan Johnson is not the man. I think there is no chance

:07:14.:07:16.

of it! If the most recent polls are to be

:07:17.:07:19.

believed, David Cameron appears to have enjoyed a 'Juncker bounce' -

:07:20.:07:22.

clawing back some support from UKIP after he very publicly opposed the

:07:23.:07:25.

appointment of Jean-Claude Juncker to the post of EU Commission

:07:26.:07:28.

president. Last week Nigel Farage took his newly enlarged UKIP

:07:29.:07:31.

contingent to Strasbourg for the first session

:07:32.:07:34.

of the new European Parliament. These two gentlemen have nothing to

:07:35.:07:54.

say today. It was the usual dull, looking back to a model invented 50

:07:55.:07:58.

years ago and we are the ones that want democracy, we are the ones that

:07:59.:08:02.

want nation state, we are the ones that want a global future for our

:08:03.:08:07.

countries, not to be trapped inside this museum. Thank you. I can see we

:08:08.:08:14.

will be covering more of the European Parliament at last!

:08:15.:08:21.

It's rumoured he's likely to stand in the next general election in the

:08:22.:08:23.

Kent constituency of Thanet South, currently held by the Conservatives.

:08:24.:08:26.

Last week the Conservatives selected their candidate for the seat -

:08:27.:08:28.

Craig McKinlay - a former deputy leader of UKIP.

:08:29.:08:30.

Did you get the short straw, you have got a seat that Nigel Farage is

:08:31.:08:41.

probably going to fight? Not in the slightest. It is a seat that I know

:08:42.:08:47.

well. It is a seat that there's obvious euro scepticism there and my

:08:48.:08:50.

qualities are right for that seat. UKIP got some very good... What are

:08:51.:08:56.

your qualities? Deep-seated conservatism, I was a founder of

:08:57.:09:00.

UKIP, I wrote the script back in 1992. My heart is Conservative

:09:01.:09:06.

values. They are best put out to the public by me in South Thanet. It

:09:07.:09:12.

would be ridiculous if Nigel chose that seat. We need a building block

:09:13.:09:17.

of people like myself to form a Government if we are going to have

:09:18.:09:20.

that referendum that is long overdue. I don't think he's got the

:09:21.:09:23.

luxury of losing somebody who is very similar in views to him. He

:09:24.:09:28.

would be best look looking elsewhere. You wouldn't like him to

:09:29.:09:33.

stand in your seat, would you? It would seem to make very little

:09:34.:09:37.

sense. People would say what is UKIP all about if it's fighting people

:09:38.:09:41.

who have got a similar view to them? We do need to build a majority

:09:42.:09:44.

Government for the Conservatives next year because only us are

:09:45.:09:48.

offering that clear in-out referendum. I want to be one of

:09:49.:09:53.

those building blocks that is part of that renegotiation that we will

:09:54.:09:58.

put to public in a referendum. Sounds to me like if the choice is

:09:59.:10:03.

between you and Nigel Farage next May in Thanet South, it is Tweedle

:10:04.:10:13.

Dum and Tweedle Dee? Not at all. The danger to this country is another

:10:14.:10:16.

Labour Government. That is one of the main reasons that I left UKIP in

:10:17.:10:20.

2005 because that last five years of the Labour Government was the most

:10:21.:10:24.

dangerous to the fundamentals of Britain that we have ever seen. I'm

:10:25.:10:29.

happy with the Conservatives. I have full Conservative values. I am a

:10:30.:10:39.

Euro-sceptic. Thank you for joining us. The Westminster bubble yet

:10:40.:10:48.

again, which has a herd mentality, a bubble with a herd mentality, it got

:10:49.:10:54.

it wrong yet again. Mr Cameron's isolated, he is useless at

:10:55.:11:00.

diplomacy, all of which may be true, but the British people liked it and

:11:01.:11:05.

his backbenchers liked it? True. Although some of us would say it is

:11:06.:11:08.

possible... You are speaking for the bubble? I'm speaking for my segment

:11:09.:11:12.

of the bubble. Some of us argued that he got it wrong diplomatically

:11:13.:11:24.

and it would be wrong politically. It will be the passage of time. We

:11:25.:11:29.

saw UKIP decline between the 2004 European elections and the 2005

:11:30.:11:36.

General. You would expect something similar to happen this time round.

:11:37.:11:39.

The question is how far low do they fall? They are still registering

:11:40.:11:44.

12-15% in the opinion polls. They are. When Mr Cameron wielded his

:11:45.:11:48.

veto which again the Westminster bubble said it's terrible, it is

:11:49.:11:52.

embarrassing, he overtook Labour in the polls for a while doing that.

:11:53.:11:57.

He's had a Juncker bounce. If you were a strategist, would you not

:11:58.:12:02.

conclude the more Euro-sceptic I am, the better it is for me in the

:12:03.:12:11.

polls? In the short-term, yes. This is the short-term thinking we are

:12:12.:12:17.

supposed to despise. The electricion is very clever for a different --

:12:18.:12:21.

the selection is very clever for a different reason. It is this

:12:22.:12:26.

anti-London feeling in Thanet South. He is a councillor, he grew up in

:12:27.:12:29.

the constituency. He is a chartered accountant. He is somebody who can

:12:30.:12:32.

be seen to be a champion of local people. If they had parachuted in a

:12:33.:12:36.

special adviser, they would be in real trouble. He wants to get out...

:12:37.:12:40.

This is the third representative of the bubble? He wants to get out of

:12:41.:12:44.

the European Union which David Cameron doesn't want to do. It was

:12:45.:12:48.

interesting for that statement to MPs on Monday, there were mild

:12:49.:12:52.

Euro-sceptics who said, "I can't take this." The Speaker said can the

:12:53.:12:58.

baying mob, the Conservative MPs, quieten down, please. Ben Bradshaw,

:12:59.:13:03.

the former Minister made it, he said, "I'm reminded when the leader

:13:04.:13:09.

of the Labour Party before Harold Wilson made that famous Euro-sceptic

:13:10.:13:16.

speech and Mrs Gaitskell said darling, the wrong people are

:13:17.:13:19.

cheering." That is the challenge. Thank you, bubbles!

:13:20.:13:22.

The Daily Politics is back at its usual Noon time every day

:13:23.:13:26.

And I'll be back here on BBC One next Sunday at 11pm for the last

:13:27.:13:32.

Sunday Politics of the summer - I'll be talking to Scotland's Deputy

:13:33.:13:34.

Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:35.:14:13.

One, two, three, four, here they come.

:14:14.:14:16.

Patton strikes, it's there! Oh, what a goal!

:14:17.:14:20.

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