24/06/2012 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland

In a Northern Ireland, the Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams will be

in the studio to discuss the implications for Republicans. Join

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2023 seconds

Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

It is just over a year since the Queen made her historic visit to

the Republic of Ireland. At that time it was a step too far for the

Deputy First Minister to meet her. Since then, and with the

announcement of a visit here to mark the Diamond Jubilee, it is the

question that would not go away. Would Martin McGuinness meet the

Queen? Finally we have an answer, yes. From this is the right thing

to do at the right time and for the right reasons.

So what does that decision mean for Sinn Fein as a republican party? We

will be putting that question to the party's president.

Also on the programme, it is 30 years since homosexuality was

decriminalised. Are politicians doing enough to tackle

discrimination? Here to discuss all of this DUP MP Jeffrey Donaldson

and commentator Brian Feeney. It is not that long ago that it

would have been unthinkable for a member of Sinn Fein to meet the

Queen. This week though history will be made. Our political

correspondent looks back and traces Martin McGuinness's journey from

IRA leader to peacemaker. A sign of the Times in 1977. The

Queen marked 25 years from the throne and the IRA marked another

year in it last war. The face of that campaign was Martin McGuinness

who joined as a teenager. Can you say whether the bombing as a likely

to stop in the near future? Well, I will always take it under

consideration. Later he went on the run and was imprisoned for IRA

membership. He has since claimed that he left the organisation in

1974 but made no secret of his support for the IRA and opposition

to the union. The Queen's Silver Jubilee visit brought a 21 gun

salute to Belfast, but it was a tale of two tribes. The sound from

nationalists was one of protests. Security was tight in the face of

the Queen's visit. Tensions deepened when a republican teenager

was shot dead by the army on the eve of the visit. These scenes

accompanied the visit. For the have watched events with deep concern

and sadness. -- we have watched events. No one could remain unmoved

by the violence and the grief that follows. The Queen spoke of

reconciliation, but two years later the monarch was personally touched

when her cousin was murdered by the IRA. His campaign, Martin

McGuinness continued to front. the end of the day it will be the

cutting edge of the IRA that will bring freedom. Sinn Fein was

changing but the message of violence was not. Our position is

clear that it will never change. The war against the British must

continue until freedom is achieved. But a new decade brought a new

message, peace and a ceasefire. Martin McGuinness became the chief

-- became very a vault higher up and the IRA. Let's not give them

what they want. Power-sharing brought Sinn Fein to Stormont, but

the party stayed away when the Queen visited to mark the Golden

Jubilee. Martin McGuinness stayed home last year where they are then

joined the First Minister in greeting the Queen. But month later,

during an Irish presidential election, the attitude had shifted.

The day in which a Queen of England comes to meet with Martin

McGuinness as president of Ireland would be a huge occasion. That was

not to be. Instead, the Queen will creep Martin McGuinness soon as

they bitty first minister. -- will Just watching those pictures, how

significant is this meeting? It is very significant in that the

journey that we are on. Republicans, I think, are, on the one hand,

divided into two constituencies. There are those who are tragically

against us and those who are for us. There are those who suffered under

British state guidance and they are hoping that it works out well. Why

are we doing this and why are we doing it at this time? We think

that as we continue on the path as we would see it towards a united

Ireland, we know that cannot happen unless the Unionists are part of

aid. We have to give space out of respect for our neighbours who have

a loyalty to the Queen of England that we do not have. There is a

very significant step that might bring us into a new platform and

into other phases which can be built upon. It is a big ask for

republicans and a big ask for the Queen as well. I think everyone

involved... The Queen will be there and Martin will be there and Peter

Robinson will be there. Many people have suffered including the Queen

herself. Her family have been bereaved as a cause of the conflict.

-- as a result of the conflict. There are others here who will not

engage in talks and will stand back from the peace process. They do

need the cover of the Irish President -- did you need the cover

of the Irish President to sell it to your constituency? We have an

ongoing process Of Equality building. Martin McGuinness will

meet the Queen of England as an equal. The hosts will be an All

Ireland a charitable organisation. This all makes it easier to

represent where we have gone and where we have come to as an island

-- tu as an island... Thankfully we are out of all of that. He said on

Friday it was not a unanimous decision but it was a clear

majority for those who did not degree -- agreed. What happens with

them? Are they accepting it, or is there a chance that you will

increase the ranks of the dissidents? We did 40 meetings

across the island on Thursday evening and we brought together

1,500 republicans. We got as many people as we could together to

discuss these matters. We have been engaging on a one-to-one basis with

people. We have spoken to families of the dead. The victims' groups

have suffered under British state guidance. We want to have a healthy

climate of dissent. I did a number of the meetings in my constituency

and I talked to people in West Belfast yesterday. One of the

things I've found quite marked is that the argument has been put

trenchantly by those who are for and against us and at the end

people stood behind and they were very quarter will and our party and

our constituency may disagree on some situations but they are united

on the fundamentals that most of us want the most change. We have been

talking for a long time to Unionists and issuing policy

statements, trying to reach out and verbally. This goes beyond the

rhetoric. Those who think we are not serious about the ability of

someone to be British and come from the island of Ireland and Unionists

will see in this gesture that we are moving significantly beyond

rhetoric. But there is more to reconciliation that Sinn Fein's

Martin McGuinness meeting the Queen. Of course. We are engaged in those

ongoing initiatives. Some of it is going on at the grass roots level.

If you are are on the dole, if you are in poverty and cannot get

access to education, if you do not have a proper quality of life, than

equality is just an abstract ideal. -- than many quality is just an

We are so divided. We are living apart and working apart and we are

too small for that. What does Conor Murphy's role have to do with this?

What message does he sent to Unionists? He has absolutely

rejected this. Protocols were followed and decisions are made.

One can question anything that one wants to question. Accepting

everything is fallible. That is the fallacy of a lot of what has

happened on this island. But look, the issues of uniting and agreeing

to disagree and defending the accommodation between loyalists and

Unionists, that will be a continuing challenging exercise.

What this engagement next week will do is show what is possible. I

would like to think that when it is over people, those of us who want

positivity in our future and harmony and a better Ireland,

because we deserve a better society, will see this as a good thing.

you reluctant to have a photograph released of Martin McGuinness

having a handshake with the Queen? We understand there will not be a

picture released. I would not suggest that there has been any

notification from Buckingham Palace but there is certainly no objection

from Sinn Fein. We are doing this as pout republicans. We are

confident and modern in our vision. We think it is the right thing to

do. The handshake or whatever greetings are involved between the

principles, of course we have no objection to that. Jefferey, how do

you view this? Well, it is something that we have waited a

long time to see. I think that we recognise that Her Majesty the

Queen is coming to Northern Ireland as part of her Diamond Jubilee

celebrations and a lot of people are looking forward to her visit.

As part of that, the Deputy First Minister, he is a minister in the

Northern Ireland executive, will be meeting Her Majesty. That is a good

thing and perhaps long overdue. you recognise that this is a

nucleus and the peace process? would not put it that way but it is

part of moving Northern Ireland forward. This visit is very

important to the Unionist community, but even beyond that, there are

many people who I think will welcome the visit of the Queen who

are not Unionist. I think it is important that Her Majesty feels

welcome in Northern Ireland and it is important that people recognise

her position as the head of state. Therefore I think this is progress.

Of course it is difficult for Her Majesty. She lost a member of her

family, a very close member of her family, during the Troubles. There

will be many people, victims of IRA terrorism who will find the

encounter a difficult. But the peace process is about tackling the

difficult issues, making the difficult decisions. Her Majesty

support the peace process and she is making a very valuable

contribution to helping Northern Ireland with a foreword to a place

where we can move - never live together on a basis of mutual

respect and Anders -- where we can live together on a basis of mutual

respect and understanding. I am sure that there is an appreciation

that there are difficulties and that has required a lot of

organisation and planning behind the scenes to produce the

circumstances. I think it has been very cleverly done, where the

meeting is going to take place. Mr Adams says that the fact that the

meeting is under the auspices of an All Ireland Organisation, Unionists

must know from the planning that has gone into it that this is a big

We heard about the reconciliation talks. Our reconciliation moves

coming from one side, or de Unionists need to do more? I think

Unionists have to do a lot of work, actually. There has been a lot of

work by Republicans. This brings it to another phase. This would be

complete the circle. The relationship between the parties

have developed enormously. This was something that was required. In

many ways it was inevitable after the Queen had gone to Dublin.

Republicans could not take the risk last year or until they had seen

what the Queen did. The fact the Queen paid her respects to the war

dead from the war of independence, tried to master a couple of words

in Irish, all of that was very important. It was impossible not to

reciprocate the gestures the Queen had done. They did the clear, the

Queen does not do these things are wrong initiative. -- letter of us.

The Queen will meet anybody the British Government tells her to

meet. She is a symbol for the British Government. There is a lot

of political and diplomatic work that goes into this. The Queen does

what she has told. Did the Queen pave the way for this? At the time

I did recognise and acknowledge the significance of her words, her

laying of the wreath at the Garden of Remembrance, what she said,

particularly about all of the victims. I think Brian makes an

important point. This would not have happened without the British

Government. You asked how significant this is beyond a symbol.

That depends on how we build on it. And I mean all of us. What can

Unionists do? There should be no excuse for people not talking now.

We are going into the month of July. There should be no issue around

Irish language of rights when you have the English Mark being

prepared to use a few words. -- English mark. There is an example

being set by the four principles. Peter Robinson, Martin McGuinness,

the Queen of England and the president of Ireland. Why would

have thought not get together and try to resolve our problems? Why

can we not imagine a different type of Ireland? The Irish striker is

orange. It is one of our national colours. -- Irish tricolour.

Harmony between the green and the orange. Letter us try to develop a

cordial Union. Even this discussion would not have happened 10 years

ago. Here is Jeffrey, a former member of the UDR, a man who served

in military service. All of us have come a very long distance. Keep

moving forward. Fundamentally your views are still not the same?

but we can accommodate. We can work out. The big bit of the Good Friday

agreement is that the Government of Ireland Act has gone. There is a

clear acknowledgement that we need the Union of Catholics, Protestants

and dissenters. That is a big challenge for Republicans. I think

it is a big challenge for Unionists. Even if you're against a United

Ireland, and I do not suggest Unionists are changing their tune,

but what they have changed their view on is that with a land mass

this size, co-operation across the island to the mutual benefit of the

people is the right thing to do. What we also need to do is to

translate the words into practical action. Gerry Cox about the Orange

tradition. Yet we still hear the refrain from Republicans, nor

Orange feet here. Surely we want to move to a situation where people do

not get upset because somebody else wants to exercise their tradition

and their culture? That is the shared future Peter Robinson has

been talking about. We need to move beyond the words and we need to

give that practical effect. We're no longer into no go areas and

peace walls. We want to move to a situation in Northern Ireland where

it is truly about respect and accommodating each other's culture

and tradition. That means the Orange tradition has to be

accommodated. As for a United Ireland, Unionists are very clearly

winning the argument. More people from a Catholic background

accepting and embracing the benefits of remaining within the

United Kingdom. It is a debate we are happy to engage in. But we are

very clear that more people in Northern Ireland are backing the

union. The Queen is the queen of the United Kingdom. I am not

English. She is the queen of the United Kingdom. Gerry Cox about

language. Proper use of the language is important. And

recognising the Queen is not just the Queen of England, she is the

queen of the United Kingdom. She is my queen. I respect that but she is

not my Queen and she is not Martin McGuinness's Queen. He is a proud

Republican. The reason why Martin is going to meet the Queen is out

of respect to you. You'll are a progressive. You talk about Orange

marchers. The Orangemen will still not be -- will still not talk to us.

If there are issues around contentious parades, we should talk

about it. That is a debate for another day. Thank you very much

indeed. It's 30 years since homosexuality was decriminalised in

Northern Ireland. But how far have we come in terms of our attitudes?

Ken Maginnis - now Lord Maginnis - recently caused a storm with his

views. And on this programme last week, the Health Minister Edwin

Poots stood by his controversial lifetime ban on gay men giving

blood. Yvette Shapiro asks if Northern Ireland's a cold house for

The next thing is some sort of beast reality. People who engage in

high-risk sexual behaviour should be excluded from giving blood.

actor is gay and HIV positive. He was bullied at school and had to

move house because of threats. He said recent pronouncements from

politicians are hurtful. It is difficult for me to get my head

around it. I come from a very loving family. I have had a great

support network of friends. I come from a Christian family. I was just

accepted with open arms. Then you have these politicians who are

ministers, men of God, that are not showing God's low of two fellow

people. They are just showing hate and judging them. It is 30 years

since, sexuality was decriminalised in Northern Ireland. Recent surveys

suggest a hardening of attitudes. In 2005, 14% up people said they

would be unhappy about a gay person living next door. That figure

doubled in the latest survey. Around one third of people would

mind a transgender person as a work colleague. 40% as a neighbour and

53% as an end of. Infrastructure needs to be amended to include

gender relations. It is a community relations issue and a good

relations this year. Work on a strategy on sexual orientation

began at Stormont six years ago. The Office of First Minister and

Deputy First Minister promise it will be published before the end of

the year. I have always felt Northern Ireland is more liberal

than its reputation. Certainly I and others who have come out as gay

have survived perfectly adequately. It was this man's case that led to

the legalisation of homosexuality here. He says gay people will wish

to donate blood, get married or adopt children will not find

support in Stormont. It will have to be endorsed by the Democratic

Unionist Party. It is all about mood music. The fact of the matter

is that strategy will come up against changes in the law that

will be needed. I suspect the court will end up being bigger friends

than Government. Representatives instalment are cautious by nature.

They tend not to lead but to follow. They take the temperature of what

is going on in their particular constituency. I do not think that

his leadership. I do hope that other politicians will actually

take the lead. They need to stand up and fight for us. The people

standing up and fighting are the people who are negative about it.

The people who think it is OK to be gay are not shouting about it.

Jeffrey Donaldson, it does seem in some circumstances that

sectarianism is the only crime in Northern Ireland. It is OK to be

homophobic? That is not the case at all. We have the strongest equality

legislation in the Union. Section 75. There is no one else in the EU

where you will find equality legislation as strong as we have.

We have also got the strongest anti-discrimination laws. This week

we find as Sinn Fein minister discriminating against prominent --

Protestants. There is a big issue that has to be tackled. It is

ending sectarianism. We are out of time. What's the connection between

Sammy Wilson's shed and missing budget papers - Stephen Walker has

the answers in this week's This week money mattered. The

finance minister was wanted for questioning and told to bring his

figures to the table. It would be better in terms of constructive

engagement if he would wind his neck in and offer a proper

explanation. They waited and waited. When Sammy Wilson finally appeared,

he seemed quite at home. I had been looking forward to this all week.

Former minister Conor Murphy found himself in hot water over an

appointment process. The Old Bailey bomber that prison for a hospital.

Survivors and victims formed a new group and vowed to work together.

There is far more that unites people than divides them. Who says

Gough and giants don't mix? Politicians played political

football. But they could not resist a blame game. Typical Unionists.