25/02/2018 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


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25/02/2018

Mark Carruthers with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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LineFromTo

Morning everyone, I'm

Sarah Smith and and this

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is the Sunday Politics...

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Bringing you up to speed on all

the political comings and goings

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in Westminster and beyond.

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Coming up in today's programme:

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Having knocked Cabinet heads

together Theresa May

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prepares - finally -

to lay out her vision for Brexit.

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But can she keep her

whole party on side?

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We'll be speaking to

a former Tory leader.

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Waiting in the wings is this man.

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But can Jeremy Corbyn unite

the opposing forces in his own party

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and convince the electorate he'd do

a better job of Brexit?

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The forthcoming local elections

in England ought to give us

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a clue about the fortunes

of the two main parties.

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We'll be previewing these

crucial council contests.

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In London, the Government blames

the Mayor, the Mayor

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Coming up here -

Claim and counter claim

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about what was agreed at the talks.

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The latest twist -

an apparent side deal to put legacy

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issues out to consultation.

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We'll hear live from

the Victims' Commissioner.

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All that coming up in the programme.

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And as usual, we've got three

Westminster insiders who will take

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us behind the headlines and tell us

what's really going on.

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Today I'm joined by Iain Dale,

Kate McCann and Steve Richards.

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Next month, Theresa May

will begin formal negotiations

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with her European counterparts

on what the future EU-UK

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relationship should look like.

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This week, she will lay

out her vision of life after Brexit

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and she'll declare that our "best

days really do lie ahead of us".

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EU leaders beg to differ though,

and have already taken

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some pre-emptive swipes.

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But, while the talk is likely

to get tough in Brussels,

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the key battles could be

played out closer to home.

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It's known as the Brexit war

committee, but the smiles suggested

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an outbreak of peace among

the Cabinet's big beasts.

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For now, at least.

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They'd arrived at Chequers,

the Prime Minister's country

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retreat, on Thursday afternoon,

to try and agree a common position

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for the next round of Brexit talks.

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Eight hours later, ministers

were apparently still smiling,

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having agreed on something called

ambitious managed divergences

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and future trade with the EU.

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One of those present

said the Prime Minister

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had played a blinder,

but will it be enough to hold

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the whole party together?

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Earlier in the week,

a letter from the pro-Brexit

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European reform group found its way

into the newspapers,

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politely reminding the Prime

Minister that when we leave,

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nothing but full regulatory autonomy

will be good enough.

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But it's Remain-minded Tories

who could throw a real

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spanner in the works.

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Conservative MP Anna Soubry

announced on Thursday she had...

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"Tabled a new amendment to the trade

bill to force the government to form

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a customs union with the EU".

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27 other EU countries also

need to be won over.

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Brexit Secretary David Davis

was in Vienna on Tuesday,

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colourfully describing what Brexit

will not look like.

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They fear that Brexit will lead

to an Anglo-Saxon race

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to the bottom, with Britain plunged

into a Mad Max style world borrowed

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from dystopian fiction.

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These fears about a race

to the bottom are based on nothing.

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But the EU are not convinced.

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European Council President Donald

Tusk arguing that the UK

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was still trying to

cherry pick its future

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relationship with the EU.

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I'm afraid that the UK position

today is based on pure illusion.

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Until now, Jeremy Corbyn

has played his Brexit

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cards close to his chest.

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He may begin to reveal his hand

in a major speech tomorrow and this

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week he unusually raised Brexit

at Prime Minister's Questions.

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This government isn't on the road

to Brexit, Mr Speaker,

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it's on the road to nowhere.

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Can I congratulate the right

honourable gentleman,

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because normally he stands up

every week and asks me

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to sign a blank cheque.

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And I know he likes cheques, but,

really, that is terribly...

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That was a reference to reports

that the Labour leader had held

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meetings with the former

Czechoslovakian spy in the 1980s.

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Mr Corbyn hit back at those reports

with a social media video,

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in which he said rather cryptically,

"Change is coming to

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the newspaper industry".

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Publishing these ridiculous smears

that have been refuted by Czech

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officials shows just how worried

the media bosses are at the prospect

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of a Labour government.

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They are right to be.

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Tory MP Ben Bradley had to apologise

to Mr Corbyn over a tweet

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about the allegations, saying...

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But it wasn't all Brexit

and brush passes.

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The Prime Minister began

the week announcing a review

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into higher education.

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We now have one of the most

expensive systems of university

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tuition in the world.

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Theresa May wants to demonstrate

her government isn't

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simply defined by Brexit,

but navigating the complications

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of leaving the EU is

an all consuming task.

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If she can avoid it

consuming her career, that

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could be her greatest achievement.

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Steve, Kate and Iain

were watching that with me.

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Let's chew over what has been

happening this week. People saying

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that meeting at Chequers, the Prime

Minister played a blinder and got

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the Cabinet to agree. Outside the

Cabinet, it looks like she is

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assaulted on all sides by

pro-Brexit, pro had Brexit Tory MPs,

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the EU, it's not as easy as all

that?

It is never going to be easy

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for a Prime Minister who hasn't got

a Parliamentary majority. She is

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very resilient. Whenever she's

knocked down, she bounces back

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again. I think she has had quite a

reasonable week this week, starting

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off on the front foot and tuition

fees and ending the week with the

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meeting at Chequers. I think a lot

of commentators thought it was going

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to be a disaster, that they would

agree on the way board. The proof in

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the pudding will be on what she says

in the speech on Friday. We have

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Jeremy Corbyn mandates and

effectively she has to up with

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probably quite a lot more detail

than she has done in the past. I

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think they have the basis for that

now.

Kate, we've talked a lot on

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this programme about the arguments

within the Cabinet but now it looks

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like the focus is now on the wider

Conservative Party. You have

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probably remain MPs like Anna Soubry

saying they want to stay in the

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customs union, a letter from pro

except MPs like Jacob Rees-Mogg

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saying they want full regulatory

divergence. Which group is likely to

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win the day?

I think what is most

interesting this week will be Jeremy

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Corbyn's speech on Monday. That

comes before Theresa May's speech on

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Friday. That will help tip those two

sites, as it were, and we will see

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what will happen with the customs

union. Jeremy Corbyn is likely to

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say he would like to stay in a

customs union that is likely to make

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the Tory MPs on the Tories I'd like

Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan, who

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want to back and push for a customs

union feel like they have more

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control over that. Whether it is

likely not promote we are yet to

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see. If Labour is shifting its

customs union position that much,

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that gives Tory MPs a lot more

strength in the House of Commons

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because the government has already

pushed back a vote on the customs

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union because they are worried about

what is going happen.

Those pro

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remain Tories on the Labour Party

believe they have the Parliamentary

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arithmetic to force a defeat on the

government over the customs union,

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are they right about that?

Certainly

in theory they are right. There are

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enough Conservative MPs and if the

opposition vote for this, the

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government faces a defeat with

profound consequences. We will not

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know probably until the moment when

the vote takes place. It will be a

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moment of one of these great

Parliamentary dramas, where there

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will be huge pressure on Tory MPs

not to go along with this and say,

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you are in alliance with Jeremy

Corbyn and so on. We won't know

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until the vote but in theory they

have the numbers. It would be a game

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changer if this amendment was

carried.

This is fascinating. It

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means the power has gone to the

house of parliament and has left

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number ten and the Cabinet, Hilary

Benn described this as a backbencher

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's parliament because the government

doesn't have a majority. Is that

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where the authority lies now?

In

some ideas. I'm not sure if I agree

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about the Parliamentary arithmetic

because some will die with the

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Conservatives, and we will hear from

one later, Frank Field. There are a

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group of them. I wonder about the

numbers on the Tory benches, there

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is a hard-core group of about ten or

a dozen that you think might well

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support Anna Soubry's amendment but

I don't really see it going much

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beyond that. But you are right, it

will be on a bit of a knife edge. If

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it came to the government were

defeated on this, then we are in

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uncharted waters, because the

government could actually make it a

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vote of confidence. It would be very

unusual to do one on an amendment to

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a bill but it is possible, or they

could call a vote of confidence that

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would put Anna Soubry and all the

others in

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others in a bit a tricky position.

If they did vote against the

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government on a vote of confidence,

they would have to be deselected.

We

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will talk about that throughout the

programme.

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Listening to all that is the former

Conservative leader,

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and leading Brexit campaigner,

Iain Duncan Smith.

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Welcome to the programme. Do you

accept there is a significant chance

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the government could be defeated on

a customs union in the House of

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Commons question when you don't have

a majority there is a chance to be

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defeated on anything.

I love the way

the media looks at this cost would

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take a pace back, it's a government

that won the election and didn't get

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an overall majority so it means

almost anything anyone is upset

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about could cause a problem for the

government, fact of life. Brexit is

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just one, it's a very big issue but

one of those, there has been other

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issues and there will be on the

issue is following through.

It

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matters to you whether we are in a

customs union with the EU?

Lots of

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things deeply matter to me, beyond

Brexit. But yes. I think the key

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thing is not what I believe but the

Prime Minister has been pretty clear

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about this from the word go, way

before the election, during the

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election importantly and even

subsequently she has made it very

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clear we are taking back control,

leaving the customs union, single

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market, and at the same time making

sure we get outside of the remit of

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the court of justice. She has been

clear about this.

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Let's pick a bit of that. In her

Lancaster House speech she said she

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wanted us to have a customs

agreement with the EU, not a customs

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union but customs agreement. This

controversial amendment Anna Soubry

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another Superdome says they want an

agreement that enables the UK to be

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able to participate in a customs

union with the EU, is there space

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for that?

It depends what the detail

is. The government set it out quite

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rightly on having a proper free

trade arrang ement. You can describe

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a free-trade arrangement in all

different ways but a free-trade

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arrangement is about us having a

clear ability to sell-out goods into

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the European Union them to sell us

without artificial trade barriers

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that will require arrangements that

out customs arrangements. The big

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them to sell us without artificial

trade barriers and that will require

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arrangements that out customs

arrangements. The behind having a

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customs union and being outside a

free-trade arrangement is we are 90%

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of the graces in the global economy

in the next two years, we will be

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free to do that. If we are in a

customs union, you to make trade

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arrangements with America,

Australia, India, where ever we want

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to, where 90% of the growth is in

the global economy in the next two

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years, we will be free to do that.

If we are in a customs union, you

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agree do that and therefore we would

have to what the European Union to

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what the European certainly be

outvoted endlessly. This is about

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where does the power light and we

would almost certainly be outvoted

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endlessly. This is about where does

the with the rest of the world in a

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moment but exactly what you

describe, the free-trade arrangement

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with no tariffs with the EU

and the

freedom to make those deals, that is

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what the EU called cherry picking?

What they really called cherry

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picking is this arrangement we are

talking about now, a customs union.

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They have been pretty clear about

this. They said it is not

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acceptable. Let's look at it from

the European Union to make those

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agreements?

I want to get into the

detail on free-trade deals with the

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rest of the world in a moment but

exactly what you describe, the

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free-trade arrangement with no

tariffs with the EU and the freedom

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to make those deals, that is what

the EU called cherry picking?

What

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they really called cherry picking is

this arrangement we are talking

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about now, a customs union. They

have been pretty clear about this.

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They said it is not acceptable.

Let's look at it from the European

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Union's standpoint. We constantly

look at what the UK once. You use is

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certainly not going to agree going

into a customs union where we will

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then have over any future agreement,

so we will outvote all 27 because we

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that would depend on the agreement.

...

That would depend on the

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agreement. The EU wants would have

enormous power against them, they an

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agreement, we would have enormous

power against them, they won't agree

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because it is not in their interests

to do I think what is more in

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arrangement. There are lots of

countries that are already breaking

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ranks with the commission about

this, Italy, Sweden, Holland said we

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have to have a free-trade

arrangement.

They are not on that

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yet, they are still on the

implementation phase. When it comes

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to free trade, I am very, very

certain that they will want to make

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an arrangement with us because it is

in their interests, arguably more

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than us. , they want a free-trade

arrangement. There are lots of

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countries that are already breaking

ranks with the commission about

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this, Italy, Sweden, Holland said we

have to have a free-trade

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arrangement. They are not on that

yet, they are still on the

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implementation phase. When it comes

to free-trade, I am very, very

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certain that they will want to make

an arrangement with us because it is

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in their interests, arguably more

than us let's move on to trade with

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the rest of the world. Why do so

absolutely convinced that the

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ability to do with Australia, China,

the ones the EU has at the,

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different from the ones the EU has

at increasing our trade with these

0:14:020:14:05

countries from inside the EU? Their

biggest

are so terribly important?

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Why can't we be increasing our trade

with these countries from inside the

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EU?

Their biggest free-trade we are

naturally, the UK, more than any

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other country in the European

country, arguably more than most in

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the world, a free-trade for free

trade the WTO has a ready said they

0:14:160:14:20

love the idea of us coming back as a

full voting member because we will

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argue for free trade. By, global

free trade and services, which stop

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because the European Union has not

wanted to push the site at all.

Do

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so much more trade with China than

us from within the EU?

That is to do

0:14:290:14:33

with what Germany says they want to

do and go and do it Germany do so

0:14:330:14:36

much more trade with China than us

from within the EU? That is to do

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with what Germany says they want to

do and go and do it.

Being a member

0:14:400:14:42

of the EU has being a member of the

EU be outside the that so why do we

0:14:420:14:47

have to be outside you get rid of

artificial tarry

that is not

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parallel argument. By getting trade

arrangements you get rid of

0:14:530:14:55

artificial and delays at the borders

that allows you to increase your

0:14:550:14:57

trade. We want from where we are.

But at the same time, incoming stuff

0:14:570:15:01

is just as important. The people who

will benefit most from a free-trade

0:15:010:15:06

arrangement of the poorest in

society because the cost of food,

0:15:060:15:09

footwear and clothing will almost

certainly our trade from where we

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are. But at the same time, incoming

stuff is just as important.

0:15:140:15:25

You might as much larger and more

important market. The skill is not

0:15:250:15:30

that important. The key thing is, do

you value a marketplace, is it worth

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doing business with? Financial

services is an important are great

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-- an important area you want to

strike agreements with. The UK's

0:15:390:15:43

dominant in financial services and

you cannot get a free-trade

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agreement within the single market

at the moment. You cannot sell

0:15:450:15:50

insurance in Germany without having

a company in Germany to sell it.

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They have never wanted to do

financial service is free trade. We

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will be in a much better state

globally. You have seen the increase

0:16:010:16:03

in New Zealand's trade when they

went for free-trade and got rid of

0:16:030:16:06

their trade barriers.

A dramatic

increase in no global position. The

0:16:060:16:10

tragedy led to this and they reckon

a free-trade deal with America we

0:16:100:16:17

did 0.02% to the UK's GDP.

I have a

bone to pick with the BBC. There has

0:16:170:16:25

been a brilliant economic report are

independent, which has been given

0:16:250:16:30

very little coverage which is taken

apart the model that the Treasury

0:16:300:16:33

and the government put together. For

example, dealing with this. The

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reason why you arrive at this, it

depends on what you assume to be the

0:16:370:16:41

actual savings on the border. The

government has only assumed a 4%

0:16:410:16:45

saving on getting rid of tariff

barriers. Almost every economist in

0:16:450:16:49

the world agrees it is nearer to 20%

saving.

This study has been covered

0:16:490:16:55

on the BBC it was on the Daily

Politics on Friday. It assumes zero

0:16:550:17:00

tariffs on absolutely everything. It

is an extremely optimistic forecast.

0:17:000:17:05

It assumes a 10% tariff at the end

of the day, it assumes tariffs

0:17:050:17:09

falling to an average of 10%, not

zero. If they went to zero it would

0:17:090:17:14

improve it even more. I have read

this report backwards.

One of the

0:17:140:17:20

officers says that while there will

be benefits from free-trade deals,

0:17:200:17:24

over time it would be likely we

would mostly eliminate manufacturing

0:17:240:17:28

in UK by the things that would be

worth it and it should not us.

That

0:17:280:17:32

was one of the original suggestions,

much earlier.

But he was one of the

0:17:320:17:37

authors of this report.

He was but

he has accepted this is not going to

0:17:370:17:41

be the case within this report.

They're assuming that the border

0:17:410:17:45

changes will mean less of a tariff

on the borders at average. That is

0:17:450:17:48

what happens in most other

free-trade arrangements. The point

0:17:480:17:52

I'm making is it has a massive

benefit to the UK for us to do this.

0:17:520:17:56

That is why going for a free-trade

agreement with the European Union is

0:17:560:17:59

the right way to go. We forget what

Europe itself once.

Labour is in a

0:17:590:18:08

complete mess about this. We will

talk to this about -- we will talk

0:18:080:18:11

to them about that.

They were in

favour of leaving the customs union

0:18:110:18:15

and the single market and Barry

Gardner said it was making a vassal

0:18:150:18:18

state if you stayed in the customs

union. We will ask Labour themselves

0:18:180:18:23

about that. Theresa May has made it

clear where out of the single market

0:18:230:18:27

and Customs union and I say to my

colleagues who want to change some

0:18:270:18:30

of this, just be very careful on

this one, because being invited into

0:18:300:18:35

a Labour Party tactical game which

will end up in real damage the

0:18:350:18:39

United Kingdom.

Iain Duncan Smith,

thank you very much for talking to

0:18:390:18:43

us.

0:18:430:18:44

So much for the Conservatives,

but what about Labour?

0:18:440:18:46

In 24 hours' time,

Jeremy Corbyn will give

0:18:460:18:48

a keynote speech on Brexit.

0:18:480:18:49

All the signs are that he will back

the UK staying permanently

0:18:490:18:52

in a customs union with the EU.

0:18:520:18:54

But over 80 senior Labour figures

have today urged Mr Corbyn to go

0:18:540:18:57

further and support staying

in the single market as well.

0:18:570:19:00

But how would that go down

with the millions of Labour

0:19:000:19:02

voters who backed Brexit?

0:19:020:19:03

Here's what the Shadow Brexit

Secretary, Keir Starmer,

0:19:030:19:05

said this morning.

0:19:050:19:06

Well, we have long championed

being in a customs union with the EU

0:19:060:19:09

and the benefits of that.

0:19:090:19:14

Obviously, it is the only way,

realistically, to get

0:19:140:19:16

tariff free access.

0:19:160:19:18

It is really important

for our manufacturing base

0:19:180:19:22

and nobody can answer the question

how you keep your commitment to no

0:19:220:19:25

hard border in Northern Ireland

without a customs union.

0:19:250:19:27

We have always said

that the benefits of the single

0:19:270:19:30

market must be there in the final

agreement and that is a really

0:19:300:19:33

important commitment

because in the end, however

0:19:330:19:35

you arrive at that, in whatever

the instrument or agreement it is,

0:19:350:19:37

the benefits have got to be there.

0:19:370:19:39

Labour is agreed on that end state.

0:19:390:19:41

There is obviously an argument

about how we get there.

0:19:410:19:44

To discuss this I'm joined by two

Labour MPs who fall on opposing

0:19:440:19:46

sides of the Brexit argument.

0:19:460:19:48

Frank Field campaigned to leave

the EU and Stella Creasy

0:19:480:19:50

is a supporter of the pro-European

group Open Britain.

0:19:500:19:53

Thank you both for coming on the

programme. Stella Creasy, you have

0:19:530:19:58

signed this letter to Jeremy Corbyn

to be asking not only to stay in the

0:19:580:20:01

customs union but also the single

market. If you're in both of them, I

0:20:010:20:07

really delivering on the referendum

Brexit result?

There are lots of

0:20:070:20:12

different combinations that still

see is leaving the European Union

0:20:120:20:14

but do what Labour people across

this country, and that is why there

0:20:140:20:19

is support across the country and

the party for this letter, which is

0:20:190:20:22

to protect the jobs and incomes. We

know that Brexit, any of the models,

0:20:220:20:28

I am horrified to your Iain Duncan

Smith dismissing the idea that

0:20:280:20:31

manufacturing may be at stake or the

numbers don't matter. It is a

0:20:310:20:35

massive hit on our economy. It is a

massive hit took peace in Northern

0:20:350:20:40

Ireland if we leave the customs

union. These are called labour

0:20:400:20:43

values and that is what we are

standing up for.

You're asking to

0:20:430:20:47

stay in the single market. The

problem with that is you thought an

0:20:470:20:50

election last year under a manifesto

which said that free movement will

0:20:500:20:56

end.

You cannot do both. I am in the

migration committee on the Council

0:20:560:20:59

of Europe. Lots of people are

willing to talk about how we make

0:20:590:21:03

freedom of movement work. They

recognise politicians have not got

0:21:030:21:06

it right across the continent. If we

are not fighting to stay in the

0:21:060:21:10

single market we cannot have that

conversation about what the reformed

0:21:100:21:14

freedom of movement might look like.

I think freedom of movement is an

0:21:140:21:18

important right for people in this

country. I do not want to have to

0:21:180:21:21

see the kids in Walthamstow

Birkenhead that their ability to

0:21:210:21:24

work for a company that has a base

outside the UK will be hampered by

0:21:240:21:28

decisions we've made. That puts them

in an austerity Britain and I do not

0:21:280:21:35

want to do that.

Frank Field, does

this sound like a Brexit you could

0:21:350:21:38

sell to any leave photo?

No, and you

know perfectly well we cannot sell

0:21:380:21:42

it. I am looking forward to what

Jeremy Corbyn says tomorrow because

0:21:420:21:47

you have hyped it up. On every vote

we have had Onuora before he came --

0:21:470:21:54

before he became leader, Jeremy

Corbyn and I were deeply suspicious

0:21:540:21:57

of this organisation which is

corrupt, it has never got its

0:21:570:22:01

accounts audited, it is bankrupt.

Whatever he says tomorrow he will

0:22:010:22:06

not be arguing to stay in the EU, he

will be arguing for the customs

0:22:060:22:10

union?

Please, let me finish. It is

deeply corrupt. It is bankrupt. It

0:22:100:22:19

has destabilised Europe with all

this pretence about it has brought

0:22:190:22:23

peace. Look what we have done to the

area around Russia. Given there are

0:22:230:22:30

number of states within Europe who

depend on our contribution, we

0:22:300:22:34

should be voting for a clear

decorate -- a clear declaration, we

0:22:340:22:38

want a free-trade area, and we have

money. What are you going to choose.

0:22:380:22:44

I think we should take the gloves

off in these negotiations and look

0:22:440:22:47

at the real power structure. They

need our money, and for reasons

0:22:470:22:52

which Stella Creasy has put forward,

we need access to a free-market

0:22:520:22:57

arrangement.

What is your problem

with Jeremy Corbyn saying that the

0:22:570:23:00

Labour policy will be too clearly

stay in a customs union?

Two things.

0:23:000:23:06

One, it goes against what we said at

the election. It goes against all

0:23:060:23:12

the scare tactics during the

campaign, all the major figures were

0:23:120:23:17

saying, you know, if you vote here,

you're leaving the customs union,

0:23:170:23:22

you're leaving the free market.

There was no question about what the

0:23:220:23:26

referendum was deciding. And the

politics of this is, are we going to

0:23:260:23:32

be run by a London agenda? I know

Stella Creasy has got other issues

0:23:320:23:37

that she reaches out across the

country, but this is essentially a

0:23:370:23:43

London agenda against Labour voters,

particularly in the North.

0:23:430:23:46

THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE

You have got the mayor of Liverpool

0:23:460:23:51

who signed this letter, the leader

of Newcastle Council.

You and I

0:23:510:23:55

would in the lobby fighting together

against this government's welfare

0:23:550:23:59

cuts.

£12 billion cuts.

That is

nothing to do with this. It

0:23:590:24:03

absolutely is. Even the bare minimal

model we are talking about would be

0:24:030:24:08

ahead on our economy and the

communities we represent. How can we

0:24:080:24:13

vote Forestieri the? How can you do

that to the voters, the People who

0:24:130:24:18

work in the Vauxhall plants in the

Wirral who are frightened they are

0:24:180:24:22

about to lose their jobs. How can

you do that to the People in

0:24:220:24:25

Northern Ireland?

Let me answer you,

please. We have been through the

0:24:250:24:30

courts. There is no problem about

the Good Friday Agreement being

0:24:300:24:33

challenged by this at all. We have

got time, I am happy to discuss it.

0:24:330:24:38

I think there are problems with the

Good Friday Agreement and a customs

0:24:380:24:42

union.

No, it will remain. If we

have time, I would love to discuss

0:24:420:24:47

that with you. About austerity, can

I answer that? We are net

0:24:470:24:54

contributor. We will have money to

be brought back. While some people

0:24:540:24:56

have signed the order leaders even

there, when you look at the

0:24:560:25:03

parliamentary arithmetic, Mrs May

almost hollowed out our vote in the

0:25:030:25:11

seats were only kept by a handful of

votes. These are seats which voted

0:25:110:25:15

very clearly to leave. That is the

act of faith. I know there are

0:25:150:25:20

problems about how do you give the

electorate the sovereignty to decide

0:25:200:25:23

an issue and then bring it back into

a representative parliamentary

0:25:230:25:27

system, but the vote was cleared to

leave. The bill is about leaving and

0:25:270:25:35

whether we support that or not and

if we do not support that, I think

0:25:350:25:38

Labour voters will draw their own

messages in the North.

Please do not

0:25:380:25:41

drive Boris's bars for the People of

those communities. You're saying

0:25:410:25:45

that somehow we will get money back.

All the evidence shows is that any

0:25:450:25:49

money you get back will be dwarfed

by what we will lose. You're talking

0:25:490:25:55

about £1 billion coming back.

THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE

0:25:550:26:02

You can talk across me all you like,

the numbers are there in the

0:26:020:26:06

government's on analysis. That is

what we have to front up to the

0:26:060:26:10

communities we represent.

Are you

going to write on the People's

0:26:100:26:16

decision to leave?

You're coming out

with all these things, we will stay

0:26:160:26:21

in a customs union, we will stay in

a single market, the decision was

0:26:210:26:25

quite clear to leave. In the north,

Labour voters voted very, very

0:26:250:26:32

clearly. You going to rat on them or

not? Never mind about buses and all

0:26:320:26:39

the rest of it.

It does matter. Let her answer. It

0:26:390:26:41

is about the evidence that we now

have. Democracy did not stop the day

0:26:410:26:46

after the referendum.

People have a

right to see the detail.

Of course

0:26:460:26:50

they do. Do you accept that the

government figures show clearly that

0:26:500:26:54

if we stay in the European economic

arrangement, which is out of the EU,

0:26:540:26:59

we are still going to take a 16 pelt

-- a £16 billion hit on our economy?

0:26:590:27:04

That worse anything you get back.

This letter is not just signed from

0:27:040:27:08

people across the country but people

across the trade union movement

0:27:080:27:12

because they because they know the

0:27:120:27:18

hard Brexit the government is

pushing for and why it matters

0:27:250:27:27

Jeremy Corbyn is fighting for the

customs union and single market

0:27:270:27:30

membership.

It means jobs and wages.

What we should be fighting forest

0:27:300:27:32

sector agreements with the European

Union. We want a free-trade area.

0:27:320:27:34

They have always opposed the

activities of the city. There is no

0:27:340:27:37

need to worry about the city. There

is a need to worry about

0:27:370:27:39

manufacturing and we will make

special arrangements with them. The

0:27:390:27:42

issue is clear, do we disguise the

fact by pretending we're going to

0:27:420:27:46

have a customs union or some other

arrangement which counters what the

0:27:460:27:52

clear declaration of northern Labour

voters actually said?

They have

0:27:520:27:57

changed their side. A third of

Labour voters did vote for leave.

0:27:570:28:01

You risk them abandoning the party.

This is not about rerunning the

0:28:010:28:05

referendum. It is about what kind of

deal do we get and is it in the best

0:28:050:28:10

interests of Britain. I believe

voters across this country have the

0:28:100:28:13

right to know what is likely to

happen.

0:28:130:28:15

THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE

Of course they have a right.

A right

0:28:150:28:24

to every bit of information going.

The key thing, we have had a

0:28:240:28:30

referendum and we rarely use

referendums for this reason, they

0:28:300:28:33

are difficult to implement. The

referendum decision was clear and

0:28:330:28:36

particularly clear in the North from

Labour voters. I want to keep faith

0:28:360:28:41

with them. I voted to come out. I

know it is harder for people who

0:28:410:28:44

voted to stay in. Are we going to

dress up a retreat, Agassi?

Then

0:28:440:28:52

there is a complicated decision for

you to make. We've been talking

0:28:520:28:55

about the amendment put forward by

Anna Soubry and others, an amendment

0:28:550:28:58

to the trade bill that will be voted

on in a few time. There is a

0:28:580:29:03

potential to defeat the government

is Jeremy Corbyn comes out in favour

0:29:030:29:06

of a customs union and whips his MPs

to vote that way. If you had the

0:29:060:29:11

opportunity to win a vote against

the government and bring down

0:29:110:29:14

Theresa May, would you vote with her

to keep her in office or against?

0:29:140:29:21

That is not the choice and you know

that. That will be the choice on the

0:29:210:29:24

day. We will have a decision, do we

continue to implement the referendum

0:29:240:29:26

decision. I shall be voting for

that.

Even if that is voting to prop

0:29:260:29:32

up the government?

It is not about

propping up the government it is

0:29:320:29:36

about implementing a decision of the

People. The government has a

0:29:360:29:41

majority on this. The idea that Anna

Soubry is going to lead all these

0:29:410:29:44

people into the labour lobbies is

just fairy tales. But we will see on

0:29:440:29:49

the night. The government will win

comfortably and double figures on

0:29:490:29:52

this issue.

Frank Field, Stella

Creasy, we will have to leave it

0:29:520:29:56

there. Thank you very much.

0:29:560:29:59

The local elections in May will see

many seats in the big metropolitan

0:29:590:30:02

councils in England up for grabs,

and the Conservatives may need

0:30:020:30:05

to brace for a difficult night.

0:30:050:30:06

A YouGov poll predicts

Labour could seize several

0:30:060:30:08

Conservative councils in London,

including one the Tories

0:30:080:30:10

have never lost before.

0:30:100:30:11

Emma Vardy looks ahead.

0:30:110:30:15

Not since the swinging '60s has

anyone done better in local

0:30:150:30:19

elections than Labour

could be about to.

0:30:190:30:22

A recent YouGov poll is predicting

Labour will sweep London

0:30:220:30:25

with the best results for any

party since 1968.

0:30:250:30:33

One of the most enduring Tory

strongholds is here.

0:30:350:30:39

To this day, Westminster,

with its largely affluent

0:30:390:30:41

population of voters,

has never had a Labour-run

0:30:410:30:45

authority, but if the poll is to be

believed, that could now change.

0:30:450:30:51

This council has been

Conservative-controlled ever

0:30:510:30:55

since the borough was created

in the 1960s.

0:30:550:30:59

But if the swing was big enough

to turn this council red,

0:30:590:31:03

that would top off a very good

night for Labour.

0:31:030:31:05

The Conservatives are at position

where they could potentially

0:31:050:31:08

be left with just one,

maybe two councils in all of London.

0:31:080:31:13

I think that would be a bad night

for the Conservatives,

0:31:130:31:16

but it is possible.

0:31:160:31:19

They are having to fight to hang

on almost everywhere

0:31:190:31:23

they still have representation.

0:31:230:31:24

But away from London,

it could be a different story.

0:31:240:31:26

Birmingham City Council has been

controlled by Labour since 2012.

0:31:260:31:32

They hold around two-thirds

of the seats here, but there

0:31:320:31:36

is anger over a bin dispute that

lasted for months and left tons

0:31:360:31:40

of rubbish on the streets

uncollected, and resentment over

0:31:400:31:42

budget cuts that are

affecting local services.

0:31:420:31:46

It does not matter who is in because

there is nothing between them,

0:31:460:31:49

that is the problem,

because Birmingham is basically

0:31:490:31:52

screwed by central government,

who have reduced all of our grants.

0:31:520:31:55

There has been a lot of problems

with the bin collections.

0:31:550:31:58

Yes, there have.

0:31:580:31:59

Oh, yes.

0:31:590:32:00

The Labour run council

got the blame for that?

0:32:000:32:02

Yes, I would say so.

0:32:020:32:04

The more it dragged

on, certainly, yes.

0:32:040:32:06

This will be the first all-out

election for Birmingham City Council

0:32:060:32:10

since boundary changes,

so there are 101 seats

0:32:100:32:13

here all up for grabs.

0:32:130:32:17

It is a place Labour should do well,

but could the party be

0:32:170:32:20

punished over those bins?

0:32:200:32:21

Back in the summer, of course,

we had the bin strike.

0:32:210:32:24

It was not the city's

greatest moment in time.

0:32:240:32:27

When I became leader of the council,

I pledged we would resolve that

0:32:270:32:30

dispute, which we have now done.

0:32:300:32:31

We, the Labour Party

here in Birmingham, are committed

0:32:310:32:34

to maintaining weekly bin

collections going forward

0:32:340:32:36

for the next four years,

a commitment I've yet to hear

0:32:360:32:39

from either of the

other two parties.

0:32:390:32:43

Here in Birmingham, the council tax

has gone up over 20% in seven years,

0:32:430:32:47

but services have gone down,

and people are seeing rubbish

0:32:470:32:49

left on their streets,

and they feel it is time

0:32:490:32:51

for a change.

0:32:510:32:52

There are plenty of other

places who survive

0:32:520:32:54

on fortnightly bin collections.

0:32:540:32:55

With council budgets

being constrained, is that

0:32:550:32:57

not a sensible option?

0:32:570:33:00

In Birmingham, we are absolutely

clear that weekly bin

0:33:000:33:02

collections need to remain.

0:33:020:33:03

Meanwhile, the Liberal Democrats

and the Greens remain much

0:33:030:33:09

stronger in local government

than they are in Parliament,

0:33:090:33:11

and in May, they will be

fighting to increase

0:33:110:33:13

their local authority presence.

0:33:130:33:16

While Ukip are likely to continue

to struggle to reverse

0:33:160:33:20

the party's decline.

0:33:200:33:23

But if the story of the night

is the biggest Labour

0:33:230:33:25

success since the '60s,

any high-profile defeats in Tory

0:33:250:33:27

strongholds could start to make some

Conservative MPs worry

0:33:270:33:30

about their constituencies ahead

of the next general election.

0:33:300:33:35

Steve, Kate and Iain

are still with me.

0:33:350:33:39

Let's pick up on the local

elections. Kate, should Theresa May

0:33:390:33:44

be deeply worried about this, what

she expected a bad night and what

0:33:440:33:49

might the consequences be?

No doubt

she will be worried but my favourite

0:33:490:33:53

thing is Everything is underlined by

the fact people care more about

0:33:530:33:56

things than other things that is

what politics comes down to, at the

0:33:560:33:59

end of the day. I think Theresa May

will be worried. -- it comes down

0:33:590:34:03

bins. It is a battle ground for

those parties. Places like Haringey,

0:34:030:34:10

if you see what has happened to

Labour in those areas, and how

0:34:100:34:14

powerful momentum and the left have

become in local politics, you see

0:34:140:34:17

how much it matters to Labour. I

think the Tories will be worried,

0:34:170:34:22

particularly about London. As the BT

said, Labour expect to do quite well

0:34:220:34:26

and that is not going to look very

good. Brandon Lewis, the new

0:34:260:34:30

chairman of the party, said last

week we expect big losses in London.

0:34:300:34:34

He is setting that already. I think

the Tory party is worried. In areas

0:34:340:34:38

like Birmingham and other areas

around the country, Brexit is likely

0:34:380:34:41

to be important and I think that's

why it comes back to labour being

0:34:410:34:45

modelled on Brexit. People vote with

their feet. If the Tories can win

0:34:450:34:49

back some seats like burning in

other places, it might not be a

0:34:490:34:52

massive all-out loss lost them on

the night.

Expectation management

0:34:520:34:57

already being Manoj

0:34:570:35:02

already being Manoj -- being

managed. Actual voters telling us

0:35:020:35:05

what they think. Did they have

consequences that Parliamentary

0:35:050:35:08

politics?

They could do this time.

It reminds me, Steve will remember

0:35:080:35:14

this, 1990 when the Tories did

disastrously in local elections.

0:35:140:35:18

Kenneth Baker went out on the

streets and exempted we kept once

0:35:180:35:26

loved. I don't think that will

happen this time. Kate is right,

0:35:260:35:30

Brandon Lewis, the Tory party

chairman has already started to

0:35:300:35:34

manage expectations. He generally

believe they are in for a drubbing,

0:35:340:35:40

particularly in London. These will

last up for grabs in 2014 when Ukip

0:35:400:35:46

are doing well. In the last year,

Ukip's vote has virtually

0:35:460:35:50

disappeared. So all three other

parties, their votes have gone up in

0:35:500:35:53

by-elections. It depends where that

vote goes, Wilbur Liberal Democrats

0:35:530:35:57

be able to hold onto the seats they

won in that year? -- Wilbur Liberal

0:35:570:36:03

Democrats be able to hold onto the

six? I think it will be a drumming

0:36:030:36:07

but I think it will be patchy. Andy

Street has been reasonably popular

0:36:070:36:12

in the West Midlands. If they do

in the West Midlands. If they do

0:36:120:36:15

that they will have a 1990 situation

and that is all they will talk

0:36:150:36:19

that they will have a 1990 situation

about.

Even if they lose

0:36:190:36:20

Westminster?

Probably.

How important

is it for Labour to do

0:36:200:36:28

Westminster?

Probably.

How important

seem to be be -- do they need to be

0:36:280:36:29

seem to be be -- do they need to be

seen making advances, to keep up

0:36:290:36:32

with the idea they are on the Tory's

heels?

I think it is important for

0:36:320:36:38

that whatever happens I don't think

0:36:380:36:41

heels?

I think it is important for

it will have a huge impact on the

0:36:410:36:41

heels?

I think it is important for

national picture because I think it

0:36:410:36:42

will confirm the dynamics as they

already are, in other words Jeremy

0:36:420:36:46

already are, in other words Jeremy

Corbyn has been in a strong position

0:36:460:36:48

since the general election and that

will be confirmed. Theresa May has

0:36:480:36:53

since the general election and that

been in a fragile position

0:36:530:36:55

since the general election and that

general election and that will be

0:36:550:36:56

confirmed. But by that point Brexit

0:36:560:37:00

general election and that will be

will be reaching or coming close to

0:37:000:37:00

one of its several climactic son I

think that will shape the national

0:37:000:37:05

one of its several climactic son I

picture. The local elections will be

0:37:050:37:08

really important for local

government, who inherit the

0:37:080:37:12

nightmarish budget. It won't change

0:37:120:37:13

government, who inherit the

the national picture very much.

Iain

0:37:130:37:17

said Ukip's vote has been falling

and they have had their troubles

0:37:170:37:22

recently as well. Important to see

where their vote goes

0:37:220:37:26

recently as well. Important to see

we are moving back to

0:37:260:37:27

recently as well. Important to see

politics maybe?

I think it does

0:37:270:37:31

nationally but locally it's a

different picture

0:37:310:37:33

nationally but locally it's a

vote tends to go on all kinds of

0:37:330:37:35

directions. It doesn't necessarily

go where you think it will. So

0:37:350:37:41

directions. It doesn't necessarily

Liberal Democrats and the Greens

0:37:410:37:43

directions. It doesn't necessarily

quite well at local elections,

0:37:430:37:43

whereas nationally they don't do

whereas nationally they don't do

0:37:430:37:44

very well at all. I think

0:37:440:37:47

whereas nationally they don't do

you do see people who would vote for

0:37:470:37:49

whereas nationally they don't do

any other party going for any other

0:37:490:37:50

any other party going for any other

party and not necessarily the Tories

0:37:500:37:53

any other party going for any other

and Labour. I think it comes down to

0:37:530:37:55

how much this comes down to Brexit.

Do people care more about Brexit or

0:37:550:38:01

how much this comes down to Brexit.

bins question mark in areas like

0:38:010:38:03

how much this comes down to Brexit.

London, I think Brexit and bigger

0:38:030:38:05

national issues will have a bearing.

0:38:050:38:07

London, I think Brexit and bigger

Brexit one way or another will help

0:38:070:38:10

with your bins?

London has become a

Labour city. Huge capital city with

0:38:100:38:18

Labour city. Huge capital city with

millions and millions has become a

0:38:180:38:20

Labour stronghold. That is

0:38:200:38:22

millions and millions has become a

significant for all kinds of

0:38:220:38:23

reasons. It has also become as

strong as it used to be in Scotland.

0:38:230:38:29

Even in 2010 in the general

election, London voted Labour by a

0:38:290:38:34

Even in 2010 in the general

wide margin. That is quite a

0:38:340:38:35

Even in 2010 in the general

significant development.

We need to

0:38:350:38:37

leave it there just now, coming

0:38:370:38:39

significant development.

We need to

to you later in the programme.

0:38:390:38:43

Still to come...

0:38:430:38:45

We speak to Former Northern Ireland

Secretary James Brokenshire

0:38:450:38:47

about returning to Parliament

after major surgery for cancer.

0:38:470:38:49

First though, its time for

the Sunday Politics where you are.

0:38:490:38:52

Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics

in Northern Ireland.

0:38:590:39:01

Claims of a side-deal over legacy

inquests have caused the latest

0:39:010:39:04

ill-tempered fall-out

between the two big

0:39:040:39:06

parties at Stormont.

0:39:060:39:08

It raises new questions about just

what went on during the recent

0:39:080:39:10

failed negotiations.

0:39:100:39:13

The Victims Commissioner,

Judith Thompson, is with me

0:39:130:39:14

to share her thoughts on how

the interests of victims might best

0:39:140:39:17

be served in future.

0:39:170:39:19

And here to reflect on another week

of revelation and counter-revelation

0:39:190:39:22

are Professor Pete Shirlow

and Chris Donnelly.

0:39:220:39:25

It's been a week

of claim and counter claim

0:39:310:39:33

over draft agreements

and political deal making.

0:39:330:39:36

Blink and you'd have missed

the latest twist or turn.

0:39:360:39:38

Here's Gareth Gordon

with a reminder of it all -

0:39:380:39:41

in just 60 seconds.

0:39:410:39:49

The agreement is leading a Secretary

of State talks about the positives.

0:39:510:39:58

And we believe about progress on the

substantial issues being made.

0:39:580:40:07

Sinn Fein the DUP met the Prime

Minister in London.

0:40:070:40:12

Whether intentionally or not,

Theresa May is facilitating the DUP

0:40:120:40:15

blocking advancement and resolution

on these core issues.

0:40:150:40:21

I could not be clearer in relation

to the Irish language act, if you

0:40:210:40:27

look at the so-called draft

agreement.

0:40:270:40:33

We had agreed the Statute of

Limitations. The consultation was

0:40:330:40:37

going to be put out the money was

going to be released.

0:40:370:40:42

No such proposal was put to me, and

I am not aware of any agreement

0:40:420:40:46

breach between Sinn Fein in the UK

Government to hand over money for

0:40:460:40:49

legacy.

0:40:490:40:54

The DUP's Jeffrey Donaldson

and Sinn Fein's Gerry Kelly debating

0:40:540:40:58

legacy on The View on Thursday

night, and that encounter has

0:40:580:41:00

re-shaped the conversation

in the past couple of days.

0:41:000:41:03

On Friday Arlene Foster said the DUP

was not aware of a deal

0:41:030:41:06

between Sinn Fein and the government

on Troubles' inquests

0:41:060:41:09

"in the absence of an overall

agreement" - as she put it.

0:41:090:41:12

The NIO issued a statement

saying all its discussions

0:41:120:41:15

were in the context of how it

would respond to an overall deal.

0:41:150:41:18

Meantime, Sinn Fein's Michelle

O'Neill spoke to the Victims'

0:41:180:41:21

Commissioner on Friday

to update her on legacy matters -

0:41:210:41:23

and Judith Thompson joins me now.

0:41:230:41:30

Welcome to you, thank you for

joining us. Were you convinced that

0:41:300:41:34

telephone conversation you had with

Michelle O'Neill that progress was

0:41:340:41:36

made on releasing funds for legacy

inquests irrespective of whether or

0:41:360:41:41

not progress was made in the wider

negotiations process?

0:41:410:41:46

What I understood from my

conversations, I had asked for

0:41:460:41:50

meetings with party leaders and

government, but Sinn Fein came back

0:41:500:41:53

to me and offered this debriefing

which happened on Friday. What I was

0:41:530:41:57

told was that three things were

agreed between Sinn Fein of the

0:41:570:42:01

British government. It was not

absolutely clear how far other

0:42:010:42:04

parties were in on that, and that is

something I will ask the British

0:42:040:42:10

government. The first of those three

things was to release the

0:42:100:42:13

documentation which we now exists,

the draft legislation for three

0:42:130:42:16

legacy bodies which will deal with

1700 odd deaths that have not been

0:42:160:42:23

investigated. That will deal with

the opportunity for people to get

0:42:230:42:28

their narratives heard when they're

worried about what will happen, that

0:42:280:42:32

will deal with information

retrieval. Those things come I

0:42:320:42:35

understand talking to all the party

leaders, were broadly agreed before

0:42:350:42:39

we even got to the talks. The

Secretary of State told my for in

0:42:390:42:45

October, told me this year, that

they would go ahead with those with

0:42:450:42:49

or without an assembly. It would not

be surprising if that went ahead.

0:42:490:42:53

The second point, which is in the

3-point agreement but Michelle

0:42:530:42:58

O'Neill spoke about, was that there

would be funding for legacy

0:42:580:43:00

inquests. That is something which

the Chief Justice took responsible

0:43:000:43:05

for two years ago. There are

something like 45 backlog inquests.

0:43:050:43:11

He needs funding to do it. It is not

part of the Stormont house

0:43:110:43:16

agreement. It is a part of the

justice system, which is

0:43:160:43:20

underfunded, and the Chief justice

has been forthright that that needs

0:43:200:43:22

to happen. That could happen outside

of the context of other things. The

0:43:220:43:29

DUP's view was they wanted

historical investigations as well.

0:43:290:43:33

If we have consultation on

historical investigations, at some

0:43:330:43:35

point you would expect them to be

agreeable to legacy inquests going

0:43:350:43:39

ahead. That second point is not way

off beam but it would seem to have

0:43:390:43:43

been contingent on the movement of

the historical investigations unit.

0:43:430:43:48

The third thing on the list of

points was that there should not

0:43:480:43:54

be... As part of the consultation,

they should not be an additional

0:43:540:44:01

discussion on amnesties. This was

never part of Stormont house, it is

0:44:010:44:07

something which has entered the

debate recently. Following a defence

0:44:070:44:10

committee report. I have spoken, and

my for has spoken to all of our five

0:44:100:44:17

party leaders, under the two

governments. And none of them told

0:44:170:44:22

us that they were in favour of an

amnesty, because it is clear that

0:44:220:44:25

whether to be one -- were there to

be one, it would mean none of our

0:44:250:44:32

party leaders felt it would be

particularly helpful or popular in

0:44:320:44:36

Northern Ireland. Whilst victims and

survivors want different things

0:44:360:44:40

broadly, there was not a welcome for

an amnesty.

0:44:400:44:45

It was very clear on Thursday night

that there was a sharp exchange of

0:44:450:44:49

views between Jeffrey Donaldson and

Gerry Kelly. Much has been made of

0:44:490:44:53

that. Jeffrey Donaldson was very

clear. He does not want to see

0:44:530:44:58

movement on those legacy inquests

without movement elsewhere. What

0:44:580:45:01

people want to know from you is do

you believe that an overarching deal

0:45:010:45:05

between the DUP and Sinn Fein is

necessary on the wider legacy issues

0:45:050:45:11

for this process to move forward? Or

should it be able to move forward on

0:45:110:45:16

its own merits?

I think it is desirable but not

0:45:160:45:20

necessary.

Ideal is desirable?

0:45:200:45:24

Ideal is desirable but not

necessary. The launch of the legacy

0:45:240:45:28

consultation, it is Westminster

legislation, it would always be the

0:45:280:45:34

Secretary of State who launches it.

The Secretary of State has been

0:45:340:45:36

saying for months that they will do

it. Regardless of whether it will

0:45:360:45:41

implement your. It is just as

funding matter. It could be done in

0:45:410:45:48

the absence of an agreement,

however, going through a

0:45:480:45:51

consultation process on legislation

whilst you have a lot of background

0:45:510:45:54

noise and political disagreement is

going to get in the way of

0:45:540:45:58

understanding, it is going to get in

the way of proper engagement with

0:45:580:46:01

that consultation, and therefore

what would be really desirable would

0:46:010:46:06

be for us to see something, not just

agreed between Sinn Fein of the

0:46:060:46:11

British government, but something

all of our British politicians could

0:46:110:46:13

say within the margins, we all want

to see this consultation go-ahead.

0:46:130:46:19

Because it is quite balanced

package. Clearly Unionists are

0:46:190:46:22

unhappy with the unilateral of the

£10 million for the legacy inquests.

0:46:220:46:26

Arlene Foster has claimed that,

Jeffrey Donaldson, others have

0:46:260:46:30

explained that in the past. But

there are other elements in the

0:46:300:46:33

overarching package which could

balance that up and are more to the

0:46:330:46:36

taste of Unionists.

Within those historical

0:46:360:46:41

investigations, they are not

unbalanced. It would redress the

0:46:410:46:44

issue that the DUP have, which is

that they feel that most of the 45

0:46:440:46:49

legacy inquests tends to be of state

actions. That will be redress its --

0:46:490:46:56

redressed. 1700 deaths, it would be

balanced. That would redress that

0:46:560:47:02

problem.

Is it not the case that the

0:47:020:47:07

responsibility rests with the

Secretary of State and the British

0:47:070:47:10

government to movable package

together to the benefit of everyone,

0:47:100:47:12

to take it outside the political

negotiation which doesn't seem to be

0:47:120:47:17

going anywhere fast at the moment,

and think about the interests of all

0:47:170:47:20

of the victims of 40 years of the

troubles? Would you like to see that

0:47:200:47:25

happen?

I would like to see it go to a

0:47:250:47:28

consultation which is not marred or

undermined by political fighting

0:47:280:47:32

over something which, fundamentally,

these parties are not 1 million

0:47:320:47:36

miles apart on.

When you put them in a television

0:47:360:47:40

studio and speak to them about this,

you could be forgiven for thinking

0:47:400:47:42

that there is an enormous gulf

between them. But when you start

0:47:420:47:45

looking at the detail of what they

are saying and you start stripping

0:47:450:47:50

back some of the wild claims and

more extravagant comments that are

0:47:500:47:55

made, in fact does not appeal to be

a great deal separating them.

0:47:550:48:00

I would agree, and that is why it is

important that a disagreement about

0:48:000:48:04

how things were agreed does not get

in the way of a package which is to

0:48:040:48:07

the benefit of people in Kings Mills

as much as in Bali Murphy. This

0:48:070:48:16

affects all of our people across

Northern Ireland regardless of

0:48:160:48:19

community background. The DUP are

conscious of that. They have many

0:48:190:48:22

ex-members of the security forces

who are looking for investigations

0:48:220:48:25

and inquests. Those things offer

them as well. If I could also say,

0:48:250:48:31

there are two other things happening

here. The pension for the severely

0:48:310:48:36

disabled, we were told that would be

a devolved matter once we have a

0:48:360:48:39

Assembly. Without legislation from

Westminster, those 500 people who

0:48:390:48:45

were severely injured are sitting

and waiting, and that is utterly

0:48:450:48:48

unacceptable. We also need to

address the matter of unit which

0:48:480:48:53

will do an acknowledgement, which

needs to be looked at. And we have

0:48:530:48:57

policy, and we do not need

legislation, for a mental health

0:48:570:49:01

service, but we do not have a

budget. In the absence of ministers

0:49:010:49:05

and the government, that is a

problem.

0:49:050:49:07

I know you are to meet all of the

main parties and also the Secretary

0:49:070:49:11

of State in the near future. Do you

believe that this process can put

0:49:110:49:16

out a consultation sooner rather

than later? As Sinn Fein says should

0:49:160:49:20

happen, the DUP has the view that

that ought not to happen in the

0:49:200:49:25

absence of a bigger deal. Do you

think the process to be moved

0:49:250:49:29

forward by Karen Bradley in the next

couple of weeks?

0:49:290:49:32

I do. There are people marching in

Belfast for the truth, people who've

0:49:320:49:38

waited for decades for inquests and

investigations. And the same people

0:49:380:49:42

exist in every constituency. It is

really important we deal with this

0:49:420:49:45

stuff, and an argument between the

parties in a political context must

0:49:450:49:51

not get in the way of things which

they properly or an agreement in.

0:49:510:49:55

Jeffrey Donaldson was very clear the

other night. He has no problem with

0:49:550:50:00

the consultation on the legacy

mechanisms going forward. If they

0:50:000:50:04

deal with the issue of balance, I do

not see why they would have a major

0:50:040:50:08

issue over inquests, which should be

funded and cannot be funded. In

0:50:080:50:14

Northern Ireland, none of our

political parties leaders feel

0:50:140:50:18

Statute of Limitations be helpful

anyway.

0:50:180:50:21

That is not necessarily the case

across the water.

0:50:210:50:25

But here in Northern Ireland, where

it matters most.

0:50:250:50:27

Very interesting to hear your

thoughts, Judith Thompson, thank you

0:50:270:50:32

for coming in.

0:50:320:50:32

Let's see what my guests

of the day make of that.

0:50:320:50:35

I'm joined by Pete Shirlow

and Chris Donnelly.

0:50:350:50:38

Chris, yet again it looks as if

victims are cotton the middle of

0:50:380:50:42

political crossfire?

It is. Yesterday, there was a

0:50:420:50:49

memorial parade in the city centre

of Belfast for two men killed by the

0:50:490:50:53

IRA. There is a parade by primarily

victims of British forces calling

0:50:530:50:58

for the truth. This is happening

regularly. It is important to hear

0:50:580:51:03

the comments from the Victims

Commissioner, and plea that the

0:51:030:51:06

British government now has the

opposition -- opportunity to move

0:51:060:51:10

forward on the consultation.

Simultaneously, the legacy inquests

0:51:100:51:17

funding could be released. The

opposition to that is coming from

0:51:170:51:21

the DUP. Arlene Foster used the term

astonishing to suggest that would be

0:51:210:51:27

her reaction if the wind moves in

that direction. The collars with the

0:51:270:51:31

Secretary of State at the moment.

Pete, some people assume there is an

0:51:310:51:36

enormous gulf between the DUP and

Sinn Fein on this. The Victims

0:51:360:51:39

Commissioner suggesting that in her

view that gulf is not necessarily as

0:51:390:51:43

wide as many people... And maybe the

politicians themselves believe.

0:51:430:51:49

We have got an excellent Victims

Commissioner, someone who is

0:51:490:51:51

forensic and incredibly fair. Nobody

would have any problems with that

0:51:510:51:59

analysis, very important in such a

contentious and difficult issue.

0:51:590:52:03

What is important is the whole

process in which, you hear the

0:52:030:52:07

background noise and the anger, that

is what we here in the TV studios.

0:52:070:52:11

But in society more broadly, over

the last 20 years ago have come to

0:52:110:52:15

start to recognise and discuss these

issues much more intimately, much

0:52:150:52:20

more fairly, and much more justly.

We have got to this stage, and I

0:52:200:52:24

think the agreement did show

political maturity, we have this

0:52:240:52:30

process, we know some families

really want it to go down the

0:52:300:52:33

justice route. Families simply want

to know what happened and it's to go

0:52:330:52:39

further, that they have some

recognition from those who harmed

0:52:390:52:43

their loved ones. And the final

strategy is that we look at what

0:52:430:52:47

will happen, who is responsible,

what harmed this caused to our

0:52:470:52:50

society. That to me was incredibly

aggressive in dealing with these

0:52:500:52:56

complexities. We know that is there

and will continue to be there, as

0:52:560:53:00

the work of all of us will continue

to drive that process forward.

0:53:000:53:04

Chris, a lot of people say the

political process has been held up

0:53:040:53:08

by a failure to agree on the

poisonous issue of legacy. If you

0:53:080:53:11

turn it on its head, and if there is

the agreement that Judith Thompson

0:53:110:53:15

has just suggested may in fact

exist, it is possible, is it? Do you

0:53:150:53:21

agree, this thing could be drawn by

moving forward on all the different

0:53:210:53:24

aspects of legacy. That may help the

political discourse.

0:53:240:53:29

There might be consensus outside of

the DUP that those legacy issues

0:53:290:53:33

could be moved forward and separated

from the political process. The

0:53:330:53:37

problem remains, the DUP at the

leadership level are saying now,

0:53:370:53:41

they would be very unhappy with

that. They are going to come back to

0:53:410:53:48

the Secretary of State, people will

be watching very closely to see if

0:53:480:53:51

the British government is willing to

do that.

0:53:510:53:53

We will speak to you later in the

programme.

0:53:530:53:55

The Republic took another step

towards an abortion referendum this

0:53:550:53:58

week with the Cabinet agreeing that

voters should be asked

0:53:580:54:00

to repeal the 8th amendment

to the constitution and allow

0:54:000:54:02

the legislature to deal

in future with the issue

0:54:020:54:04

of pregnancy termination.

0:54:040:54:05

The 8th amendment gives an equal

right to life to the mother

0:54:050:54:08

and to the unborn child.

0:54:080:54:10

Our Dublin Correspondent,

Shane Harrison, begins his report

0:54:100:54:11

with a very personal story.

0:54:110:54:19

Tara Flynn is an actress and

comedian. She is about to do

0:54:190:54:23

something very, very rare for an

Irishwoman. Talk on camera about a

0:54:230:54:30

very, very private matter. Her

decision to terminate a crisis

0:54:300:54:35

pregnancy after a failure of

contraception when, duelling a very

0:54:350:54:38

difficult period in her life, at a

time when she could not cope.

0:54:380:54:44

I just knew it, my body knew before

my brain did, but I needed an

0:54:440:54:47

abortion and I knew nothing about

them, because we did not talk about

0:54:470:54:51

them at all in Ireland.

Tara says most people who know her

0:54:510:54:54

story have been very kind and

understanding. But not all of them.

0:54:540:54:58

I have been called a murder, and I

know that I am not. That is all that

0:54:580:55:04

matters. That is how I sleep at

night, I 100% do not believe that,

0:55:040:55:08

because I do not equate a foetus

with a living and breathing person.

0:55:080:55:13

And when I speak to other people

less extreme viewed people, they

0:55:130:55:18

will often say, when I say, do you

think I am a murder, they say no! I

0:55:180:55:25

say, do you think I should be in

prison, they do not believe that,

0:55:250:55:30

they feel discomfort, but they have

not got the space to think about it.

0:55:300:55:34

Abortion is something people in the

Republic are going to have to think

0:55:340:55:36

a lot about in the coming weeks and

months. With a referendum to repeal

0:55:360:55:41

the eighth Amendment to the

Constitution provisionally scheduled

0:55:410:55:44

for the end of May. The 1983

Amendment gives equal rights to life

0:55:440:55:49

to the mother and to the unborn. But

it has not stopped. Tens of

0:55:490:55:52

thousands of Irish women travelling

abroad to end their pregnancy. The

0:55:520:55:58

latest official government figures

show nine per day leaving for the

0:55:580:56:05

UK, and for per day importing pills

from the Internet to induce a

0:56:050:56:09

termination

0:56:090:56:15

termination without a prescription.

Pro-life groups, who disputed the

0:56:150:56:18

abortion pill numbers, will be

campaigning to save the eighth

0:56:180:56:20

Amendment, saying that there are two

sets of human rights at stake, that

0:56:200:56:24

of the mother and of the unborn.

I think we have heard the word

0:56:240:56:30

reality being used a lot in the

debate recently called up one

0:56:300:56:33

reality is being ignored, and that

is the reality that abortion kills a

0:56:330:56:37

baby and hurts and women. And we

have a very low abortion rate here

0:56:370:56:41

in Ireland. The number of Irishwoman

having abortions has fallen, and

0:56:410:56:48

that whole big -- fall began before

abortion pills became available.

0:56:480:56:55

Less women are having abortions

precisely because Irish society

0:56:550:56:59

became more tolerant and

compassionate and with better

0:56:590:57:00

support.

When people go to the polls, they

0:57:000:57:04

will be given to understand if they

vote to repeal they will also be

0:57:040:57:10

voting to allow unrestricted access

to abortion for the first 12 weeks

0:57:100:57:12

of pregnancy.

Fundamentally for me what this means

0:57:120:57:18

is not trusting politicians, it

means trusting women and their

0:57:180:57:20

doctors, and trusting women in the

first 12 weeks of their pregnancy to

0:57:200:57:23

decide what is best for them,

whether or not they want to continue

0:57:230:57:26

that pregnancy, and beyond 12 weeks

trusting doctors to allow it on

0:57:260:57:31

medical grounds.

If the people vote for a repeal the

0:57:310:57:36

is no guarantee the 12 weeks the

portal would be passed. And other

0:57:360:57:44

comments might add to the confusion.

He has said he is in favour of

0:57:440:57:48

repeal, but he is not happy with the

12 week was afterwards. And that

0:57:480:57:53

think that is where there will be

problems for government. He has

0:57:530:57:58

given political cover to some other

anti-abortion politicians, and I

0:57:580:58:03

think that will make things quite

tricky for Leo Varadkar.

0:58:030:58:08

It is still early days, but one

logician who wants to save the

0:58:080:58:14

eighth Amendment says she will have

to respect the results, and if need

0:58:140:58:17

be, vote for 12 weeks, the cost in

the Republic, unlike the UK, it is

0:58:170:58:23

people not the parliament that is

sovereign.

0:58:230:58:27

I am pro-life, but I also believe I

do not have the right to tell a

0:58:270:58:30

woman or another person what to do.

But that is my own decision.

0:58:300:58:34

Everybody should get out and vote.

As a legislator, I am saying I will

0:58:340:58:38

work for the will of the people with

what ever the result is.

0:58:380:58:44

In the meantime, activists on both

sides of the argument are preparing

0:58:440:58:47

for future battles. For those

supporting repeal, it is about

0:58:470:58:52

facing up to reality and no longer

colluding in a lie at a time when

0:58:520:58:56

Ireland exports its abortion problem

and imports its solutions.

0:58:560:59:03

The question is, would you for

someone to remain pregnant against

0:59:030:59:06

their will? And if you would, how

would you enforce that, how does

0:59:060:59:09

that look, do you detain me, do you

shackle my hands, do you do

0:59:090:59:16

pregnancy test at the airport? It

does not work, you cannot legislate

0:59:160:59:21

for it, let's acknowledge it

happens, it has always happened, it

0:59:210:59:24

will always happen, and let's keep

people safe.

0:59:240:59:27

But for the pro-life side, the

Republic is at a crossroads facing

0:59:270:59:32

fundamental questions.

Do we want to be a society which

0:59:320:59:35

loves and protects both mother and

baby, recognising both

0:59:350:59:38

vulnerabilities, or do we want to be

a society that decides when there is

0:59:380:59:42

a problem, we will kill the child?

This is the grave of 15-year-old and

0:59:420:59:48

Lovett, who died alone, four months

after the eighth Amendment was

0:59:480:59:50

passed. Edinburgh to a son who also

died. She passed away on a cold

0:59:500:59:55

January morning in a grotto behind

the Catholic Church in Co Longford.

0:59:551:00:00

The referendum will be the latest

chapter in how voters in the

1:00:001:00:05

Republic, with its past of mother

and baby homes with unmarked graves,

1:00:051:00:10

face up to the problems posed by

crisis pregnancies.

1:00:101:00:13

Shane Harrison reporting.

1:00:131:00:14

And let's have a final

1:00:141:00:16

word with Pete Shirlow

and Chris Donnelly.

1:00:161:00:19

Chris, Nigel Dodds has been saying

he does not see devolution coming

1:00:191:00:24

back in the short-term. Tony Blair

talking about Brexit and the Good

1:00:241:00:28

Friday Agreement. Where are we in

the next couple of weeks?

1:00:281:00:30

The fallout will continue from the

breakdown in the talks. But the

1:00:301:00:34

draft agreement, it is really going

to be as good as it gets. I can only

1:00:341:00:42

imagine that any deal is going to

look very close to that. If the

1:00:421:00:46

British government is able to move

independently on their own to move

1:00:461:00:50

towards implementing elements of

that, it might actually help us get

1:00:501:00:53

to that point sooner rather than

later.

1:00:531:00:54

Pete?

This is the point for civic

1:00:541:00:59

leadership, we have to stand up and

talk across the sectarian divide,

1:00:591:01:04

the traditional divide, talk about

tolerance and respect. When people

1:01:041:01:07

spoke about the Good Friday

Agreement, being over, that is

1:01:071:01:10

nonsense. The Good Friday and

Belfast agreement was a people's

1:01:101:01:16

process. We had a move to being a

much better society than we were.

1:01:161:01:20

The civic leadership comes to the

fore and makes it clear that that is

1:01:201:01:25

the type of tolerant and fair

society we want.

1:01:251:01:28

Is there a public appetite for that

changed debate, perhaps?

1:01:281:01:34

Perhaps what needed to happen was

the agreement being leaked, people

1:01:341:01:38

will perhaps get to look at the

details of that and come to terms

1:01:381:01:42

with it. In that sense, whenever

talks are convened, as they will

1:01:421:01:48

need to be in the future, that might

be the basis upon which they will be

1:01:481:01:50

able to agree.

We will leave it there, gentlemen.

1:01:501:01:53

That's it.

1:01:531:01:54

Back to Sarah in London.

1:01:541:01:59

Welcome back.

1:01:591:02:02

Now, he was the Northern Ireland

Secretary at a crucial time

1:02:021:02:04

in UK-Ireland relations.

1:02:041:02:06

But late last year,

James Brokenshire realised

1:02:061:02:10

he had a health problem,

when he began coughing up blood

1:02:101:02:12

whilst on a break with his family.

1:02:121:02:14

Tests revealed a cancerous lesion

on his lung and at the start

1:02:141:02:17

of the year he announced his

resignation from the Cabinet

1:02:171:02:19

to undergo major surgery.

1:02:191:02:23

His operation was a success and,

a few short weeks after being

1:02:231:02:26

discharged from hospital,

he has returned to Parliament

1:02:261:02:27

and I'm delighted to say

he's also joined us now.

1:02:271:02:30

Welcome to the programme.

1:02:301:02:31

Thank you very much, good to be

back.

How are you feeling?

1:02:311:02:36

Remarkably well, very strong. First

week back in Parliament, which was

1:02:361:02:41

quite emotional, people coming up

and giving you hugs. It's

1:02:411:02:45

interesting how something like this,

from across the comparative party, a

1:02:451:02:52

unifying issue, Jacob Rees-Mogg,

Nicky Morgan, coming and welcoming

1:02:521:02:56

you back. And Labour MPs, SNP MPs

and the Lib Dems, real warmth. It is

1:02:561:03:02

a rarity, as we know at times, where

some of the political bait is very

1:03:021:03:06

intense, to have that very warm

reception. So I was very moved.

You

1:03:061:03:13

look very vigorous, it is only about

six weeks?

About six weeks. The care

1:03:131:03:17

and support I received from the NHS

was absolutely outstanding. I just

1:03:171:03:22

could not fault the hospital

treatment that I received. I suppose

1:03:221:03:27

being disciplined about getting

back, getting myself fit, forcing

1:03:271:03:31

myself to do lots of exercise, do

lots of walks, having Cassiem my

1:03:311:03:38

children, strong family support

behind me as well, it has just been

1:03:381:03:40

amazing. The number of people that

are written in, e-mailed, wishing me

1:03:401:03:47

and, whether they support my own

party or not, just wanting me to do

1:03:471:03:50

well. So yes, positive. The

prognosis is good. I think I was

1:03:501:03:54

lucky that I was able to pick it up

early enough. But it has I think

1:03:541:04:00

underlying to me a number of issues

about lung cancer, as I had a small

1:04:001:04:07

cancerous Schumer, where there is

some stigma Ramis. Around 15% of

1:04:071:04:11

cases of lung cancer have no link to

smoking. I think people try and form

1:04:111:04:16

some judgments, that is someone's

fault. People shouldn't do that at

1:04:161:04:19

all about cancer. It is about early

intervention, picking it up early,

1:04:191:04:24

following it through. There are many

moments where I could have said, too

1:04:241:04:28

busy, can't actually do this, but

following that through, getting the

1:04:281:04:32

treatment I needed, I am so

delighted to be here feeling as

1:04:321:04:36

strong as I am.

You are having these

tests at a fairly crucial time in

1:04:361:04:40

the Brexit negotiations. You where

Northern Ireland Secretary and at

1:04:401:04:44

the very point when the Prime

Minister was having to put together

1:04:441:04:47

a deal acceptable to the EU and DUP

about what was going to happen to

1:04:471:04:51

prevent a hard border across Ireland

at the end of last year, when you

1:04:511:04:55

are still Northern Ireland

Secretary, I am sure you have kept

1:04:551:04:58

up with this even though you are now

on the backbenches. We have been

1:04:581:05:01

speaking on the programme about the

possibility of a customs union with

1:05:011:05:05

the EU. Is it necessary to have one

in order to avoid a hard border on

1:05:051:05:11

the island of Ireland?

Last time I

was here we were touching on that

1:05:111:05:15

issue and the first phase

negotiations that had concluded. In

1:05:151:05:20

essence, the three elements we look

at, in essence the negotiations on

1:05:201:05:23

the trade arrangement with the EU,

if that does provide the issues

1:05:231:05:30

around the border, then specific

proposals the UK Government would

1:05:301:05:32

then make and that Ms backstop of

alignment to deal with the

1:05:321:05:35

North-South issues.

That was a

remarkable thing, because you've

1:05:351:05:41

promised full alignment with the

rules of the internal market and

1:05:411:05:45

Customs union, basically keeping, in

essence, the UK in the single market

1:05:451:05:50

and Customs union if some other

solution is found.

It is also

1:05:501:05:54

looking at the equivalence issues,

of how you can create the same

1:05:541:05:56

outcomes without having full

alignment. I think that is

1:05:561:06:00

important. This whole debate around

the customs union actually comes

1:06:001:06:04

down to, what is our future

relationship with the EU? Do we

1:06:041:06:08

need, as I believe we do, to be able

to negotiate agreements externally,

1:06:081:06:12

do we ensure we are not simply a

rule taker, that we just abide by

1:06:121:06:18

the rules and almost we voted to

leave the EU but we are now even in

1:06:181:06:22

a worse situation of actually being

subject to everything but without a

1:06:221:06:27

say at all. I just don't see that as

tenable.

Yet that is exactly the

1:06:271:06:32

situation we find ourselves in is

another solution to the Irish border

1:06:321:06:36

isn't found, isn't it? That is what

the Prime Minister signed up to,

1:06:361:06:40

full alignment with the single

market and customs union unless

1:06:401:06:43

there is another agreement, which we

haven't seen emerge?

I believe we

1:06:431:06:47

can agree with the EU, this free

trade agreement, deals for goods and

1:06:471:06:51

services, because it is the services

element that is really crucial to

1:06:511:06:55

this as well. Whilst also ensuring

yes, we don't have that hard border

1:06:551:07:03

emerging on the island of Ireland

with everything that goes with it.

1:07:031:07:06

The regulatory issues, yes, there

are differences that already exist

1:07:061:07:09

between Northern Ireland and Great

Britain, particularly around some

1:07:091:07:11

animal health and animal welfare

issues. There is experience we can

1:07:111:07:15

point to and there is a way forward,

as to how we negotiate this in the

1:07:151:07:18

weeks I had to get that right

outcome.

It needs to be started on.

1:07:181:07:22

Michel Barnier wants an agreement

about the Irish border before we

1:07:221:07:25

move on to talking about the future

trade relationship?

The first phase,

1:07:251:07:32

it's a tiered basis approach that we

take on how it is about the broad

1:07:321:07:35

issues first and how I believe we

can negotiate an outcome that deals

1:07:351:07:39

with the very sensitive issues of

the Good Friday Agreement, the

1:07:391:07:43

Belfast agreement, and also the

broader issues and North-South

1:07:431:07:46

co-operation on the island of

Ireland. So it actually it's about

1:07:461:07:49

going to back to those first phase

negotiations, following it through

1:07:491:07:53

and getting the right outcome for

the island of Ireland, Northern

1:07:531:07:57

Ireland and the UK as a whole.

Some

of your colleagues who want to make

1:07:571:08:00

out the Irish border is something of

a side issue we shouldn't get too

1:08:001:08:03

worried about say things like the

Good Friday Agreement is out of

1:08:031:08:07

date. You must be worried when you

hear them say things like that? You

1:08:071:08:11

understand how sensitive it is?

When

I return to Parliament and made my

1:08:111:08:14

first interventionist league, I was

very clear on how the Belfast

1:08:141:08:19

agreement, Good Friday Agreement

underpins the situation, the whole

1:08:191:08:24

freedoms and arrangements on the

island of Ireland, how it remains as

1:08:241:08:27

relevant now as it has ever done. I

know some people picked up on does

1:08:271:08:33

this define Brexit? I think actually

there is a ground of commonality and

1:08:331:08:38

realising how important this is.

Yes, over time it maybe there are

1:08:381:08:43

certain issues in slower time, once

we get devolved government backed up

1:08:431:08:46

and running that you could review,

could look at this in a sensible

1:08:461:08:50

fashion. There are certain things

that perhaps people have pointed to,

1:08:501:08:55

mandatory coalitions of devolved

government in Northern Ireland,

1:08:551:08:58

questioned if that is still the

right way forward. That is a

1:08:581:09:01

separate issue, that is in slower

time. The Good Friday and Belfast

1:09:011:09:05

agreement continues to underpin and

needs to define how we look to the

1:09:051:09:09

future.

James Brokenshire, stay with

us. We will bring in some of the

1:09:091:09:12

rest of the panel. As you see it, is

essentially the question of the

1:09:121:09:17

border with Ireland always going to

underline the Brexit talks and

1:09:171:09:21

always be a problem, something

difficult for hard Brexiteers who

1:09:211:09:24

want nothing to do with the customs

union to get around?

It will always

1:09:241:09:28

be a problem until there is a

solution. The Irish government

1:09:281:09:32

doesn't want to border, the British

government doesn't want border,

1:09:321:09:36

European union doesn't want a

border. You have everybody trying to

1:09:361:09:39

go to the point. There was a speech

last September in Belfast, you were

1:09:391:09:45

probably there, where it was

suggested there should be a customs

1:09:451:09:49

arrangement between Britain and the

European Union, between Britain and

1:09:491:09:54

the Republic of Ireland. He

suggested that himself. From the

1:09:541:09:59

Torquay, talks is giving at the

moment you would think he had never

1:09:591:10:02

said that. I don't know what form

that would take but surely if you

1:10:021:10:06

have all three parties to these

agreements wanting the same outcome,

1:10:061:10:09

there ought to be a way of doing

this.

A lot of other things people

1:10:091:10:15

in the EU have said means the means

of getting to that outcome is

1:10:151:10:20

difficult?

The outcome is easy,

everyone agrees. Like the war in

1:10:201:10:27

Iraq, everyone agreed, they wanted

peace in the Middle East, how do you

1:10:271:10:30

get there? The fact they all agree

on the end is not that significant.

1:10:301:10:35

Indeed, the first phase negotiation

which you were nobly involved with,

1:10:351:10:39

and of going tests on Don, reminds

me of that first UN resolution in

1:10:391:10:43

the build-up to the war in Iraq.

Everyone could sign up to it because

1:10:431:10:47

it meant different things to

different people. This is the

1:10:471:10:52

problem, as you know. The Irish

government viewed it differently to

1:10:521:10:55

the British government, who viewed

it differently from the rest of the

1:10:551:10:57

EU. Now we come to the crunch. I can

see no way forward beyond some

1:10:571:11:02

continued membership of the customs

union. You can't have a separate

1:11:021:11:05

arrangement for Northern Ireland,

the DUP wouldn't buy it for a start.

1:11:051:11:09

I gather that is one of the main

reasons why Jeremy Corbyn, was a

1:11:091:11:13

sceptic about all of this, is

signing up to it, because he sees

1:11:131:11:16

now this is the only way of keeping

the open border.

Talking of Jeremy

1:11:161:11:23

Corbyn, one issue we haven't touched

on is a story that has been running

1:11:231:11:27

all week about Corbyn's contacts

with so-called Czechoslovakian

1:11:271:11:30

agent. It was interesting, the way

it is played out, he attacked the

1:11:301:11:34

newspapers for running the stories,

really strong attacks from some Tory

1:11:341:11:38

MPs against him which looks like

they may have rebounded a bit?

The

1:11:381:11:44

thing looking back

1:11:441:11:47

which has become clear that has come

out of this Jeremy Corbyn question

1:11:471:11:47

is Labour know exactly what they

1:11:471:11:50

out of this Jeremy Corbyn question

doing when it comes to social media

1:11:501:11:51

out of this Jeremy Corbyn question

and the Conservatives still probably

1:11:511:11:52

don't. If you look at the way Jeremy

Corbyn

1:11:521:11:57

don't. If you look at the way Jeremy

his Nvidia and put it out on YouTube

1:11:571:11:58

and Twitter and it got thousands and

thousands and thousands of hits.

1:11:581:12:02

and Twitter and it got thousands and

Rush might he made his own

1:12:021:12:06

and Twitter and it got thousands and

didn't need to speak to newspapers

1:12:061:12:07

or television to do it. It allows

free rein to

1:12:071:12:12

or television to do it. It allows

this, where Jeremy Corbyn does

1:12:121:12:13

actually have real questions to

1:12:131:12:15

this, where Jeremy Corbyn does

answer. Whether you think it is

1:12:151:12:17

answer. Whether you think it is

right or wrong or right or wrong he

1:12:171:12:18

was giving state secrets, he still

met this person and that is

1:12:181:12:23

was giving state secrets, he still

question he has to answer. Brendan

1:12:231:12:24

Bradley has had to apologise for

1:12:241:12:26

question he has to answer. Brendan

Tweety made. I think one point about

1:12:261:12:31

question he has to answer. Brendan

this that we should all take away is

1:12:311:12:31

his apology has been re-tweeted and

is now an attack line and is vicious

1:12:311:12:35

is now an attack line and is vicious

and picked -- vindictive

1:12:351:12:40

is now an attack line and is vicious

people need to be kinder to each

1:12:401:12:41

other.

There was no evidence he was

selling state secrets or knew any

1:12:411:12:44

state secrets to give away for free,

which is why you have this sense

1:12:441:12:49

state secrets to give away for free,

that actually the Tories went

1:12:491:12:50

state secrets to give away for free,

little too far in describing him

1:12:501:12:52

state secrets to give away for free,

a traitor, saying he betrayed

1:12:521:12:54

state secrets to give away for free,

country and they were the ones...

1:12:541:12:55

Hang on a minute, it was one MP that

got taken to task for that.

He's now

1:12:551:13:00

been forced to apologise. The

Defence Secretary said he betrayed

1:13:001:13:04

his country.

You said the whole Tory

party, yes there were attacks on

1:13:041:13:09

his country.

You said the whole Tory

Jeremy Corbyn and there still are in

1:13:091:13:10

his country.

You said the whole Tory

the media. The Sunday time -- Sunday

1:13:101:13:15

Times today has a 2-page spread

today. Anyone under the age of 40

1:13:151:13:20

just discount this sort of thing. It

just discount this sort of thing. It

1:13:201:13:27

is like in the general section, the

stories had no effect on people

1:13:271:13:29

stories had no effect on people

leave it there, thank you all for

1:13:291:13:32

leave it there, thank you

1:13:321:13:36

Until then, bye-bye.

1:13:361:13:38