25/03/2012 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland

On the Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland: only a third of benefit

claimants to her unfit to work. We asked the social benefits Minister

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1820 seconds

how the others are going to find a Hello and welcome to Sunday

Politics in Northern Ireland. It's all about helping people to get

back into work - that is the Government's rationale for its

controversial review of people on incapacity benefits. Today we can

reveal what come into the Sirte -- first batch of people who have been

reassessed. There is no work out Bertie Aherne it resigned from

Fianna Fail last night. Did he jump before he was pushed? There had

been due to be a meeting later this week to discuss the expulsion of

Bertie Ahern. It is likely that would have taken that move. His

resignation has forestalled cat. There was a sense that he was up

against it after the tribunal decided it did not believe it it --

believe his evidence on financial irregularities. He says that he

rejects that findings of the tribunal and that he will fight to

clear his name and that this is no admission of wrongdoing. He says it

is a political decision because it would create crude division within

Fianna Fail. He has taken this action today and it is really a

story of somebody having fallen from a very great height. One

thinks back to 1998 in his role in the cosy tint the Good Friday

Agreement. Nobody could have predicted it would come to this

past. It is just over a year since the

Department of Social Development began reassessing the estimated

76,000 people who claim incapacity benefit here. The process will not

be completed until 2014, but we can now reveal the results of the first

batch of people to be reviewed. 24 % of people have had the benefit

removed and 46 % have been ruled fit for work. 30 % were found to be

unfit for work. Of the 2000 or so people who were told their

incapacity benefit was being cut, 1382 appealed the decision. So far

247 appeals have been completed and 40 % of those were successful. We

will hear from the minister shortly, but first let's talk to Ian Parsley.

Also, to Kevin Higgins from advice Northern Ireland. They are is a

concern that some of the assessments will need to be

revealed and there is no doubt there will be a number of appeals.

My concerns are more for the people who go into those appeals processes

and the uncertainty that they face rather than the government spending

around them. It is important early in the debate to frame it correctly,

that the objectives of welfare reform are to simplify the system,

protect the tax payer and incentivise work. The outcome of

welfare reform has to be judge and whether or not it has achieved that.

I think your viewers would agree with those principles, but as the

implementation match but the eerie? Kevin, are people worried about

this? I think it is useful to go back to the background of this.

Under the previous Labour government there was a policy

statement in 2007 and the goal was to get 1 million people off

incapacity benefit. That set the trend that people may be find it

increasingly difficult to believe that government and the policy

makers are interested in helping people make the journey from

welfare to work. The concern is that the government are just

interested in getting them off benefits. The unemployment register

will grow significantly over the next couple of years. I have been

speaking to the Social Development Minister, Nelson McCausland. There

are a number of different departments involved in this and

alongside the welfare reform programme, we also need the work

programme. There are two sides to this. That is the responsibility of

another department. There will be a work programme in place and that

will provide assistance. There are people who perhaps have had no

experience of work at Old, people who might lack some basic skills to

get them into employment. That is the sort of work there will be

undertaken by a work programme. That would have to be specific to

Northern Ireland. Are you happy that that is not in place? These

people are being reassessed now. They are moving on to other

programmes that are already there, but the full package of welfare

reform... we do have programmes like back to work, steps to work,

Surrey. And when the imagine this will take place. I appreciate it is

another department, but there must be a sense of urgency to get a

proper work programme in place. There is urgency about it. I am

sure that's it will be taken bored with the urgency. High have you any

idea of a time frame, months or years? He didn't give me a time for

that. We already have the steps to work programme there. It is just

there will be a better version come a much more improved work programme

than meets the needs of the new situation. Let's look at the

figures on the people who have had appeals heard. It is a small number

out of the 1300 or so we have put in an appeal. Of those, 40 for

cents were successful. That seems very high. -- a 40 %. I am actually

very encouraged by the figures. The first thing is this, the figure of

the people who have been disallowed and identified as capable of

undertaking work stands at 24 %. But is interesting because it is

very different from some of the stories that I have seen and heard.

We have had one politician saying that in Strabane 90 % of people

were being disallowed. The figure is actually only 24 %. It is that

sort of exaggeration, albeit the person said this is anecdotal. Q We

have the hard facts. When people put out stories saying things that

90 % of people have been disallowed, back creates concern at. The true

figure is 24 %. Of those who are turned down, 63 % decide to appeal

to it. Some people simply accept it. Of those two at the late 60 % of

the appeals are found in favour of the previous decision and 40 %

there is a change. Does that not seem very happy to you? What it

says to me is that the independent appeals system is working and the

main reason why you get changes from the cases that we have seen so

far, the main reason seems to be that additional medical evidence is

provided by the customer. Given the very long process that people have

to go through, surely at some point along that line that medical

evidence should have been quite obvious? You are very much

dependent on a person bringing forward perhaps Documentation from

a surgeon, from a psychiatrist, what ever. But his additional

information they can provide that the perhaps have been provided. We

have all been aware of incidents as when people have had decisions

reversed as additional information has come forward. Looking at the

figures, at 9300 is now reasonably good sample for any sort of survey.

If we then say take that to the 76,000 people, that means that

around 18,000 people are likely to fall into the category of having

their incapacity benefit stopped. But puts a sizable number of people

on to the unemployed would register. The pits a number of people into a

position where they are going to be supported to find employment. Many

of those people will need additional help. But would be

training, personal skills, personal development, job experience. People

will have different needs. The key thing for me is that being in work

is a good thing. Let's look at the Disability Living Allowance. 20 %

cut in funding is expected. How do you justified the for is that

nobody will be worse off, of course there will be people who are

currently on it you will not get it all will get less. How do the sums

add up? Quite clearly there are good points in welfare reform and

there are things that are not so good. There are things that are

quite clearly very sound and to which we are fully committed. We

have made that very clear. You are not happy with the disability

living allowance? Take the credit works well. There are other bits,

the changeover from disability living allowance to the personal

independent payment and the attempt by government to reduce the

increase on spending benefit. That has a negative aspect to it. That

is something I would put on the more negative side. There are

differences between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United

Kingdom. Two examples. Looking at disability living allowance you

will find it in Northern Ireland there is a much higher percentage

of people who are in that because of mental illness. It is a

different demographic profile. What impact that is actually going to

have on the delivery of its and that financial working of it, we

don't know. He met Iain Duncan Smith last week, is there any good

news for people in Northern Ireland? What have you been able to

convince him. There have been a number of areas identified for we

want flexibilities. We raise them with senior officials and Iain

Duncan Smith. On the flexibilities I can be got an encouraging

response. Specifically? The issues that go round there in the general

world around us around -- around direct payments to landlords,

monthly payments, single payments into families. He recognises the

challenges we face in Northern Ireland and was very supportive.

Paddy Coyle from County Tyrone is one of many benefit claimants who

have challenged the new system of assessments. He told Yvette Shapiro

about his experience. They award you points for sitting and standing.

Paddy Coyle has become a reluctant expert on the benefits system. A

spray painter by trade, he has not been able to work since he fell off

a ladder last year and shattered his leg. Would you get a lot of

pain with it? Yeah, certainly. look at it you would know. How many

pins? Nine or 10 pins. Paddy's been claiming Employment and Support

Allowance since his accident. He was called for a medical assessment

last summer and was shocked at the outcome. I was sent for a board

with this cage on and failed the board, they told me I was fit to

work. Even with a cage on your leg? With the cage on my leg, yes. A bit

of common sense would have been needed. I went over the Jobseekers

office, they basically laughed at me - what are we going to do with

you? In fact, Paddy was given no points in his assessment, even for

mobility and standing up. He appealed the decision and at

another hearing in the autumn he was awarded 15 points and his full

benefit was reinstated. As the Politicians like Sinn Fein's Mickey

Brady say Paddy's experience is typical of the type of cases they

are dealing with. He fears that the system is buckling under the strain.

In England, there was delays of up to a year for appeals and I think

we will see that here. I want to encourage people who feel they have

a right to appeal, to appeal. There is a cost to the public purse and

that isn't always factored in. Paddy has plenty of unwanted time

on his hands at the moment and is anxious to get back to work when

his leg heals. He acceps he will have to re-train for another less

physical type of employment, but that's a worry in itself. There is

no work there. Where they are going to put the people I haven't a clue.

And to re-train them in what, to do what, when there's nothing there

for them? Let go back to the Incapacity

Benefit appeals. Are you surprised that the 40 %? I think it is a

little higher than it would be ideally. The stress it puts on the

people going through appeals... and the amount of money it cost us in

Northern Ireland is a matter for some concern. It is not wildly

beyond what I would have expected it to be, but it is a little on the

high side. Generally we have implemented the benefits system

better than an England. I would like to see his aim to repeat that.

Kevin come of the department is at pains to point out that we do

things differently and that people on the assessment programme our

telephone before they get the first letter, telephone down again before

they get another letter. Do you think you're doing a good job?

communication end of things is good in the Department of put those

steps in place. There is focus on the medical examination. A private

healthcare provider provides the medical examination, so there needs

to be a focus and getting that right and giving people the

opportunity to describe fully their health conditions. The head by

sector is inundated with people needing help with forms. Not

everybody who fails to make it through with incapacity

reassessment or necessarily going to be able to claim jobseeker's.

The other big thing coming down the track is welfare reform. For some

people who claim to implement and support alliance that could be

limited to one year. That is a big issue. The work programme is a big

issue. But you have been on incapacity for 10 years it is like

the you don't have the skills to going to the job market. Long-term

unemployment is not deliberately -- not directly linked to the job

cycle. We still have the highest economic inactivity rate in the UK.

We need to do a lot more in general to get people back into work and

assess better what skills employers require.

It is Sport Relief weekend. For more of the political week, here is

Gareth Gordon. And we begin with some breaking

news. The former Miss prison down macro bad news for smokers and

pensioners, good news for the super rich. There are a lot of things

which concern me in this Budget. Bertie Ahern is not laughing any

more after a bird -- after a tribunal found he lied about his

bank accounts. He will be the next Ulster Unionist leader? Could this

be a clue? Do they call me leader? Not yet. While some might regard it

as boring, I personally regard it as very exciting. In this Olympic

year, Sport Relief unearthed a few potential stars. Or maybe not.

Just going back briefly to some of the ministers other comments. UN de

la he does not seem overly enthusiastic about some of the

changes, but have we lost the argument? Will people have to said

they are going to get less? welcome that the minister is

concerned about that. The advice sector and people reliant on this

income would be concerned that the Treasury has suggested there will

be a 20 % cut. We would be concerned that we would go to the

same problems that we have gone through with Incapacity Benefit

moving to the E S A. We need to make sure that people are supported

through the process and the people who are entitled to the benefit get