28/05/2017 Sunday Politics Northern Ireland


28/05/2017

Mark Carruthers with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:39.:00:42.

New CCTV images are released showing suicide bomber, Salman Abedi,

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on the night he attacked Manchester Arena, killing 22 people.

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Are the politicians and the security services doing

:00:50.:00:51.

Theresa May says Britain needs to be "stronger and more resolute"

:00:52.:00:57.

in confronting extremist views, as she outlines plans

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for a new Commission to counter extremism.

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We'll be talking to the Security Minister.

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Jeremy Corbyn says a Labour government would recruit 1,000

:01:09.:01:10.

more staff at security and intelligence agencies.

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And coming up here: As election campaigning resumes

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after Monday's Manchester bomb attack, I'll be joined live

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in the studio by the leader of the SDLP, Colum Eastwood.

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Join me in half an hour. what the Conservatives are offering

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the capital, having voted Remain. To help guide me through this

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morning, I'm joined by Steve Richards, Julia

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Hartley-Brewer and Tim Marshall. They'll be sharing their thoughts

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on Twitter and you can join So, with a week and a half to go,

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the election campaign And some recent polls

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suggest the race is just We'll be taking a closer look

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at that in just a moment but, first, here are some of the key events over

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the next 10 days or so: Tonight at 6pm will see the third

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of the party leader interviews. This time it's the SNP's

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Nicola Sturgeon facing questions While many across the UK will be

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enjoying tomorrow's bank holiday, there will be no break

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in campaigning for And in the evening it will be

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the turn of Ukip's Paul Nuttall On Tuesday the SNP

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publish their manifesto - the last of the major parties to do

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so - after last week's Then on Wednesday, the BBC's

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Election Debate will see representatives from the seven main

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parties debate in front On Thursday, Lib Dem leader Tim

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Farron will have his interview... Before Friday's Question Time

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special with Theresa May They won't debate each other,

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but will take questions consecutively from members

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of the audience. The final week of campaigning

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is a short one, with politicians cramming in three days

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of door-knocking before voters go We'll have an exit poll once

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voting has ended at 10pm, with the result expected early

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in the morning of June 9th. Well, it's Sunday, and that always

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means a spate of new opinion And they make for fascinating,

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if a tad confusing, reading. There are five new opinion

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polls today, which have the Conservative lead

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over Labour anywhere from six points to 14 points.

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So, what's going on? Professor John Curtice

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is the expert we always turn to at times like this,

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and he joins me from Glasgow. Take us through these polls. They

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seem to be all over the place? They may seem to be but there is a very

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consistent key message. Four of these five polls, if you compare

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them with what they were saying before the Conservative manifesto

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launch on the 18th, four say the Conservatives are down by two

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points. Four of them say the Labour vote is up by two points. A clear

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consistent message. The Conservative lead has narrowed. Why does this

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matter? It matters because we are now in a position where the leads

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are such that the Conservatives can no longer be sure of getting the

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landslide majority they want. Some posters suggesting they may be in

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trouble and it is going to get rather close. Others suggested is

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further apart. There are two major sources of... The Poles agree that

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young voters will vote Labour if they vote. Older voters will vote

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for the Conservatives. How many of those younger voters will turn out

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to vote? The second thing is whether the evidence in the opinion polls

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that the Conservatives are advancing more in the North of England and the

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Midlands is realised that the ballot box? If it is not realised, the

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Tories chances of getting a landslide look remote. If it is,

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they could still well indeed get a majority more than 80%. The

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Conservatives have lost some ground depending on which opinion poll you

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look at. What about the Labour Party? It is gaining ground. It has

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been gaining ground ever since week one. They started on 26, they now

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average 35. There were a lot of people out there at the beginning of

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the campaign who were saying, I usually vote Labour but the truth is

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I'm not sure about Jeremy Corbyn. They seem to have decided the Labour

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manifesto wasn't so bad. They have looked at Theresa May and have said,

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we will stick with Labour. Labour have managed to draw back into the

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fold some of their traditional voters who were disenchanted,

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together with, crucially, some of those younger voters who have never

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voted before, who have always been a particular target for Jeremy Corbyn.

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What is your reaction to previous opinion polls and elections weather

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has been a feeling that some of the Labour support has been overstated?

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This be a worry this time? That is one of the uncertainties that faces

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the opinion polls and the rest of us. We had a conference on Friday at

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which it was carefully explained that pollsters have been trying to

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correct the errors that resulted in an overestimation of Labour support

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a couple of years ago, particularly among younger voters. You shouldn't

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assume the opinion polls will be wrong this time because they were

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wrong the last time. We want in truth know whether or not the polls

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have got it right. Even if they are wrong in terms of the level, they

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are not wrong in terms of the trend. The trends have been dramatic so

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far. A big rise in Tory support early on at the expense of Ukip. And

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subsequently, a remarkable rise in Labour support, albeit from a low

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initial baseline. This election has already seen quite a lot of

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movement. We shouldn't rule out the possibility there will be yet more

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in the ten days to come. That is his analysis. Let's talk to

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the panel. Julia, how concerned should Conservative headquarters be

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at this particular point at what looks like an apparent surge by

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Labour? Depends if you want a massive landslide majority or might

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not. I assume the Tory party do. Whether anybody thinks that is a

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good idea is a different matter. Undoubtedly the manifesto league was

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a total disaster. Social care policy and the U-turn. Lots of stuff in the

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Labour manifesto was very appealing. The tactic from Sir Lynton Crosby

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was clear. It is all about Theresa May. Don't even mention the

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candidate or the party. The Labour Party, the candidates are on the

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moderate side are saying, don't mention Jeremy Corbyn. This has been

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a battle between two big people. The more we have seen of Theresa May,

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she has gone down. The more we have seen of Jeremy Corbyn, he has gone

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up. If you make it about strong and stable leadership and then you do

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something like a massive unprecedented U-turn on a key policy

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like social care, the knock is even greater. Do you think that is the

:08:30.:08:33.

reason for the change in the opinion polls or is Labour gaining some

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momentum? I think it is part of the reason. You can understand why the

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focus was on her at the beginning because her personal ratings were

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stratospheric. What is interesting is all successful leaders basically

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cast a spell over voters in the media. None of them are titans. All

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of them are flawed. It is a question of when the spell is broken. This is

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a first for a leader's spell to be broken during an election campaign.

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That was a moment of high significance. The fact the Labour

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Party campaign is more robust than many thought it would be is the

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other factor. I think it is the combination of the two, that the

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trend, as Professor John Curtis said, the trend has been this

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narrow. There has not been much campaigning. Local campaigning

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resumed on Thursday, national campaigning on Friday. Do you think,

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Tim Marshall, that the opinion polls are reflecting what happened in

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Manchester and people's thoughts about which party will keep them

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safe? No, I think that will come next week. I think it is too soon

:09:39.:09:41.

for that. It was quite understandable from the V -- the

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very beginning for Lynton Crosby to frame the campaign in terms of

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Theresa May and Brexit. The electorate can have its own view.

:09:54.:10:01.

You always have to go back to Clinton's it's the economy stupid

:10:02.:10:06.

for most of the electorate. It is framed in your electricity bill. It

:10:07.:10:10.

is framed in your jobs. Both manifestos have got more holes in

:10:11.:10:15.

them than Swiss cheese. It comes down to which manifesto you believe.

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The Labour manifesto makes more promises about things you care about

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like your electricity bill. Interesting, but in the end despite

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while we thought would be a Brexit election, it has been a lot about

:10:30.:10:34.

public services. It always comes down to bread-and-butter issues. I

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don't think we have quite seen how the terrorist you has played out. We

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had the Westminster attack only a couple of months ago. That was

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already factored in in terms of who you trust and who you don't trust.

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The IRA stuff from Jeremy Corbyn is already factored in. People actually

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care about how ordinary government policies affect their lives. Thank

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you very much. The election campaign was,

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of course, put on hold following the terrorist

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attack in Manchester But now that campaigning has

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resumed, it's hardly surprising that security

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is now a primary concern. The Labour Party has announced it

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would recruit 1,000 more Jeremy Corbyn, speaking on ITV at

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short while ago, says previous cuts have undermined security.

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It seems that the cuts in police numbers have led to some very

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dangerous situation is emerging. It is also a question of a community

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response as well. So that where, an imam, for example, lets the police

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he is concerned about a muddy, I would hope they would act. And I

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would hope we have -- and I would hope they would have the resources

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to act as well. Joining me now from Leeds

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is the Shadow Justice Good morning. You have announced a

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thousand more Security and Intelligence agency staff. That is

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in line with what the government has already announced and the Shadow

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Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, has said you would not be spending any

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more money. It doesn't amount to much, does it? That is just one of

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the parts of our pledge card on the safer communities. There is also

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10,000 extra police, because the Conservatives cut the police by

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20,000. That 10,000 extra police would mean in -- and extra police

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officer in each neighbourhood. There are 3000 extra put -- prison

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officers. Prison staff has been cut by 6000. That is a third. It is not

:12:34.:12:41.

helping keep communities safer. We are pledging 3000 extra

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firefighters. Also, a thousand extra security staff and 500 extra border

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guards. There have been 13 areas identified where our borders are not

:12:56.:12:59.

as secure as they should be. That is the list of numbers you have given.

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If we concentrate on the security services, because it was Jeremy

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Corbyn he said there will be more police on the streets under Labour.

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If the security sources need more resources they should get them. Why

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aren't you giving them more? We are committing to a thousand more

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police. The Godinet is doing that as well. You are not committing

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anything more. The government has not delivered on that promise. We

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will deliver on that promise is -- promise. What Jeremy has made very

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clear is that you can't do security on the cheap. Austerity has to stop

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at the police station door, and at the hospital door. But we will be

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giving the resources required to keep our communities safer. So you

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will give them the resources and more powers? Well, the police need

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to be empowered. But when you listen to what the Police Federation are

:13:59.:14:01.

saying, they have been speaking out for a long time about the danger

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caused by police cuts. And I'm talking not only about terrorism,

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not only about acts of extreme violence, but anything from

:14:14.:14:18.

anti-social behaviour to burglary. Use it more powers. What sort of

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powers are you thinking of giving the security services? We need to

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listen to them. That is not a power. We need to listen to the

:14:29.:14:31.

intelligence community and the security service, to the army and

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the police, about what they think and how they think our communities

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could be made safe. One thing is clear. Cutting the number of police

:14:42.:14:45.

by 20,000 makes our community is less safe, not more safe. You said

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you will listen to the security services. Can voters be reassured

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and guaranteed that Jeremy Corbyn will listen to the security services

:14:57.:15:01.

and the police in terms of more powers if that is what they want?

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Until now he has spent his whole political career voting against

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measures designed to tackle home-grown and international

:15:11.:15:15.

terrorism. Jeremy Corbyn's speech on safer communities earlier this week

:15:16.:15:19.

made clear he is listening to the security services. So he would grant

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those new powers. He voted against the terrorism Act in 2000, into

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thousands and six. In 2011. And in 2014, the data retention and

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investigatory Powers act. Which new powers will he be happy to enact?

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Just to say, Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and

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many Conservative MPs, voted against legislation where they thought it

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would be ill-advised, ineffective or actually counter-productive. It is a

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very complex situation. What we don't want to do is introduce

:15:54.:16:00.

hastily prepared laws with one eye to the newspaper headlines, which

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can act as recruiting sergeants for terrorism. And actually, when I said

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earlier that Jeremy Corbyn made clear in his speech this week that

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he has been listening to the security services, what he said

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about the international situation has also been said by the former

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head of MI5, Stella Rimington, and her predecessor. As well as

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president of back -- President Barack Obama.

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You say he will give the police and security services the resources and

:16:28.:16:33.

powers they need. If we look back at some of the legislation Jeremy

:16:34.:16:38.

Corbyn and others voted against in 2000, it gave the Secretary of State

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the -- new powers... Does Jeremy Corbyn still think that is a bad

:16:49.:16:53.

idea? Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and

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others... I know you want to bracket it with Conservatives but I'm

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interested in what Jeremy Corbyn will do when he says we are going to

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be smarter about fighting terrorism. If he's not prepared to vote in

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favour of those sorts of measures, or trying to impose restrictions on

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suspects, I'm trying to find out what he will do. It is a complex

:17:16.:17:21.

situation. With this legislation the devil is often in the detail. If it

:17:22.:17:26.

was a simple and stopping terrorism by voting a piece of legislation

:17:27.:17:29.

through Parliament, it would have been stopped a long time ago. Sadly

:17:30.:17:37.

there are no easy answers, and that is recognised by Barack Obama,

:17:38.:17:40.

Stella Rimington, the head of the MI5, by David Davis and other

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Conservative MPs. What is clear, as Jeremy made clear in his speech this

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week, is the way things are being done currently is not working. We

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have got to be tough on terrorism and the unforgivable acts of murder,

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but also tough on the causes of terrorism as well. The sad truth is

:17:59.:18:03.

there are no easy answers. If there were, the problem would have been

:18:04.:18:16.

solved a long time ago. If you more security and terrorism officers but

:18:17.:18:18.

your leader is still uncomfortable with giving them the powers they

:18:19.:18:21.

need to do their jobs because it is complicated legislation, they will

:18:22.:18:23.

want to know how you are going to do it. At another stop the War rally in

:18:24.:18:32.

2014, Jeremy Corbyn said the murder of a charity worker was jingoism. At

:18:33.:18:42.

the beginning of that speech he mentioned the importance of the

:18:43.:18:46.

one-minute silence for the memory of Alan Henning who was murdered. What

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he has also made clear is responsibility for acts of terrorism

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and murder lies with the murder, and something that's really disappointed

:18:56.:19:03.

me is that the Prime Minister said the other day that in Jeremy

:19:04.:19:06.

Corbyn's speech on this on Monday, he said... Whether she agrees with

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him on his politics, she knows he didn't say that in his speech, but

:19:21.:19:24.

what troubles me is you have got a Prime Minister who must have sat

:19:25.:19:28.

down with her advisers earlier that day and said, well I do know he

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didn't say that but if we say he did we might win some votes. I think

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that is shameful and it shows Theresa May cannot be trusted. These

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issues should transcend party politics. We need to pull together

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on this issue. Thank you very much. Well, the Conservatives have

:19:42.:19:46.

promised a new statutory commission The party says it will identify

:19:47.:19:48.

extremism, including the "non-violent" kind,

:19:49.:19:51.

and help communities stand up to it. Also this morning,

:19:52.:19:53.

the Security Minister, Ben Wallace, has attacked internet giants

:19:54.:19:55.

for failing to tackle terror online, and accused them

:19:56.:19:57.

of being ruthless money-makers. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:19:58.:20:11.

Those comments you have made about social media companies failing in

:20:12.:20:15.

their responsibility to take down extremist material, what will you do

:20:16.:20:20.

to compel them? I think we will look at the range of options. The Germans

:20:21.:20:24.

have proposed a fine, we are not sure whether that will work, but

:20:25.:20:29.

there are range of pressures we can put onto some of these companies.

:20:30.:20:35.

Some have complied. In the article in the Sunday Telegraph today I did

:20:36.:20:38.

say it is not all of them. They are not immune to pressure. We can do

:20:39.:20:43.

internationally, and the Prime Minister urged at the G7 and

:20:44.:20:47.

international response. I think there are a range of issues. We

:20:48.:20:54.

could change the law. You mentioned the G7, and rhetoric and warm words

:20:55.:20:58.

are fine to an extent but it is action people want. If you have made

:20:59.:21:02.

these impassioned remarks in the newspapers about them failing to do

:21:03.:21:08.

the job, people want to know what powers do you have now to say to

:21:09.:21:12.

social media companies take down this material? We have an act that

:21:13.:21:17.

was recently passed. In this area we have just finished consulting on one

:21:18.:21:22.

of the areas we could use but we cannot pre-empt the consultation. We

:21:23.:21:29.

have right now officials from my department over in the United States

:21:30.:21:32.

with American officials working with CSPs because what we see is that

:21:33.:21:37.

they do respond to pressure. The best example is we think they have

:21:38.:21:43.

the technology and the capability to change the algorithms they use that

:21:44.:21:50.

maximise profit over safety. But you are relying on these companies

:21:51.:21:53.

devoting more resources to this line of work that you would like to see

:21:54.:21:57.

them do. Have you got any evidence they will do that? They said, only a

:21:58.:22:03.

few weeks ago before the election was called the Home Secretary hosted

:22:04.:22:07.

a Round Table with them. We have evidence they are trying to improve

:22:08.:22:13.

it. A few are refusing to or being difficult, and that's why the Prime

:22:14.:22:16.

Minister was right to step up not only the language she was using but

:22:17.:22:20.

to say we are not going to allow this to progress any more. People

:22:21.:22:24.

will be worried about who will make the judgment about what is

:22:25.:22:27.

unacceptable and what should be taken down. Let me show you this,

:22:28.:22:33.

which was shared widely across social media. If you read that quote

:22:34.:22:39.

you could argue it is at the same end if you like. The man in the

:22:40.:22:43.

picture is a terrorist hate preacher, the jihadist who was

:22:44.:22:48.

killed in Yemen by the Americans. Is this the sort of thing you would be

:22:49.:22:53.

demanding social media companies take down? You have to look at the

:22:54.:22:57.

context it was deployed in. I could show you some of the 270,000 pieces

:22:58.:23:04.

we have had removed since 2010 from internet sites that have been

:23:05.:23:08.

extreme. The big issue is not often the individual image, it is the way

:23:09.:23:12.

these companies set up the algorithms to link you. If you were

:23:13.:23:18.

watching that on Facebook delivered to you, perhaps you would like to

:23:19.:23:21.

look at this, because that's how they set it up. If you go onto

:23:22.:23:29.

YouTube, you can get let down the path from looking at Manchester... I

:23:30.:23:38.

understand your example, but from a practical level are you expecting

:23:39.:23:41.

media companies to take down that sort of posts if it appeared? Yes...

:23:42.:23:49.

You are? Who will make the decisions about what will radicalise young

:23:50.:23:52.

people that could lead someone down the path to let off a bomb? If I

:23:53.:23:59.

invite your viewers to look at the work the Guardian have done on

:24:00.:24:03.

Facebook guidance, to say for example it is OK to produce videos

:24:04.:24:08.

or broadcast videos of seven-year-olds being bullied as

:24:09.:24:12.

long as it wasn't accompanied by captions, I don't think you need to

:24:13.:24:16.

be an expert to say that is not acceptable. Something more worrying

:24:17.:24:21.

for you as a journalist and me as a politician, another set of guidance

:24:22.:24:27.

that says... I think this is quite menacing... That certain people

:24:28.:24:32.

don't deserve our protection. That includes journalists and politicians

:24:33.:24:36.

and people who are controversial. So I think there is more work to be

:24:37.:24:40.

done but at the end of the day it is the pathway this stuff leads to. It

:24:41.:24:45.

is more about examining how much progress you can make. The

:24:46.:24:50.

Government says there are up to 23,000 potential terrorist attackers

:24:51.:24:55.

in this country, 3000 of those posing a serious threat being

:24:56.:25:05.

monitored. That is pretty disturbing, these are big numbers.

:25:06.:25:11.

Yes, and the tragedy of Manchester shows this is not about failure, it

:25:12.:25:14.

is about the scale of the challenge we face and that is why it is

:25:15.:25:17.

important that alongside people is powers. Should you double the size

:25:18.:25:26.

of MI5 for example? We have increased year-on-year in real terms

:25:27.:25:29.

not only the money but the numbers of people in MI5. It is now 2000 we

:25:30.:25:34.

have committed to increased to... Before the attack. Before our

:25:35.:25:41.

manifesto we had recruited, we have increased the whole of government

:25:42.:25:44.

spending on counterterrorism from ?11.7 billion in 2015 up to 15.7

:25:45.:25:54.

billion. Would you expand the number of people in MI5? I have asked them

:25:55.:26:01.

on a regular basis if they have the resource if they are happy with it,

:26:02.:26:06.

and the answer comes back time and time again, yes we are. You have

:26:07.:26:11.

quite extensive powers at your disposal, the question is if you are

:26:12.:26:16.

using them. Measures were introduced in 2012 to replace control orders,

:26:17.:26:23.

but they have rarely been used. Only seven are currently in operation.

:26:24.:26:31.

Why? Because there are a whole... It is just one tool in the tool box.

:26:32.:26:36.

Other powers we use, we take away people's passports if we think they

:26:37.:26:45.

are about to travel. How many? I cannot comment, it is a sensitive

:26:46.:26:49.

issue. Plenty of people are finding their passport has been removed and

:26:50.:26:53.

at the same time we strip people of citizenship to make sure they don't

:26:54.:26:58.

come back. On top of that, because of the investment made in GCHQ, MI5

:26:59.:27:04.

and counterterrorism, we have more powers and more ability to monitor

:27:05.:27:10.

them. But are you using them enough? Only seven TPIMs are in operation.

:27:11.:27:18.

You won't give me any of the other measures at your disposal, but if

:27:19.:27:21.

they are only in single figures, that doesn't seem to compare with

:27:22.:27:27.

the numbers who are being monitored. Also, we have to strike a balance

:27:28.:27:32.

between... We have to satisfy the court so we have to make sure there

:27:33.:27:35.

is enough evidence to restrict people's freedoms. TPIMs do all

:27:36.:27:43.

sorts of good things to keep people safe. It sends people away from

:27:44.:27:50.

where they live, it tags them... I tell you why they are better. The

:27:51.:27:55.

control orders were on track to be struck down by the courts because

:27:56.:27:59.

one of the things we have to satisfy is the courts but we also have to

:28:00.:28:03.

satisfy, we have to make sure we get the balance between the community is

:28:04.:28:08.

right and the measures we take. If we alienate our communities, we

:28:09.:28:12.

won't get the intelligence that allows us to catch it. There is no

:28:13.:28:17.

point in having more police and intelligence services if you don't

:28:18.:28:23.

give them the powers to do the job. Jeremy Corbyn were licensed James

:28:24.:28:35.

Bond to do precisely nothing. And -- thank you.

:28:36.:28:37.

The revelation that the Manchester suicide bomber, 22-year-old

:28:38.:28:45.

Salman Abedi, was born in this country has raised fresh concerns

:28:46.:28:47.

about the effectiveness of the UK's counter-extremism policy.

:28:48.:28:49.

In a moment we'll be talking to two people who've spent their careers

:28:50.:28:52.

investigating radicalisation in the UK.

:28:53.:28:53.

Douglas Murray, of the Henry Jackson Society,

:28:54.:28:55.

and Sara Khan, author of The Battle for British Islam and CEO

:28:56.:28:58.

of the counter-extremism organisation Inspire.

:28:59.:28:59.

We asked both for a personal take on how to confront the problem

:29:00.:29:02.

of Islamist extremism. First up, here's Douglas Murray.

:29:03.:29:05.

Even after all these dead, all this mourning and defiance,

:29:06.:29:11.

We remain stuck in the John Lennon response to terrorism -

:29:12.:29:29.

Our politicians still refuse to accurately identify

:29:30.:29:32.

the sources of the problem, and polite society

:29:33.:29:34.

This country gave asylum to the Libyan parents of Salman Abedi.

:29:35.:29:41.

Their son repaid that generosity by killing 22 British people,

:29:42.:29:45.

one for each year of life this country had given him.

:29:46.:29:51.

We need to think far more deeply about all this.

:29:52.:29:56.

Eastern Europe doesn't have an Islamic terrorism problem

:29:57.:29:59.

France has the worst problem because it has the most Islam.

:30:00.:30:06.

Are we ever going to draw any lessons from this?

:30:07.:30:10.

For the time being, the game is to be as inoffensive as possible.

:30:11.:30:18.

The rot isn't just within the Muslim communities.

:30:19.:30:22.

Consider all those retired British officials and others who shill,

:30:23.:30:26.

and are in the pay of the Saudis and other foreign states,

:30:27.:30:30.

even while they pump the extreme versions of Islam into our country.

:30:31.:30:36.

It is high time we became serious too.

:30:37.:30:46.

Islamist extremism is flourishing in our country.

:30:47.:30:54.

We're failing to defeat it, so what can we do about it?

:30:55.:31:00.

Whenever I say we must counter those Muslim organisations

:31:01.:31:04.

who are promoting hatred, discrimination, and sometimes even

:31:05.:31:08.

violence, I'm often either ignored by some politicians out

:31:09.:31:13.

of a misplaced fear of cultural sensitivity, or I find myself

:31:14.:31:16.

experiencing abuse by some of my fellow Muslims.

:31:17.:31:19.

These groups and their sympathisers tour Muslim communities,

:31:20.:31:28.

hold events, and have hundreds of thousands of followers

:31:29.:31:31.

Yet there is little counter challenge to their toxic

:31:32.:31:35.

anti-Western narrative, which includes opposition

:31:36.:31:41.

I've seen politicians and charities partner

:31:42.:31:45.

with and support some of these voices and groups.

:31:46.:31:50.

Many anti-racist groups will challenge those on the far

:31:51.:31:56.

right but not Muslim hate preachers, in the erroneous belief that to do

:31:57.:32:00.

But it's Islamophobic not to challenge them because it implies

:32:01.:32:07.

Following the attack on Monday, it cannot be business as usual.

:32:08.:32:16.

We must counter those who seek to divide us.

:32:17.:32:26.

Sarah Karen Allen Douglas Murray join me know. You wrote a book,

:32:27.:32:32.

strange death of Europe. What did you mean in your film when you said,

:32:33.:32:38.

let's get serious? Several things. Let me give you one example. The

:32:39.:32:42.

young man who carried out this atrocious attack was a student at

:32:43.:32:47.

Salford University for two years. He was on a campus which is, from its

:32:48.:32:52.

leadership to its student leadership, opposes all aspects of

:32:53.:32:55.

the government's only counter extremism programme. They boast they

:32:56.:33:00.

are boycotting it. They always did this. The university he was at was

:33:01.:33:06.

against the only counter extremism policy this state has. This is just

:33:07.:33:11.

one example of a much bigger problem. What are you suggesting?

:33:12.:33:18.

Shut down the University? Force them to change their policies? I think in

:33:19.:33:27.

the case of Salford, which discourages students from reporting

:33:28.:33:35.

Islamic extremism... When you discover you have produced a suicide

:33:36.:33:39.

bomber in Manchester, you should be held responsible. What do you say to

:33:40.:33:43.

that? I think it is quite clear from I am experienced there have been

:33:44.:33:49.

politicians who have undermined Prevent, community organisations,

:33:50.:33:51.

Islamist groups who have been at the forefront of undermining and

:33:52.:33:57.

countering Prevent, but also wider counter extremism measures. Islamist

:33:58.:34:03.

-- Islamist extremes and has flourished in this country. If

:34:04.:34:08.

Summer Rae had given us a crystal ball ten years ago and said, look

:34:09.:34:12.

forward and you will see hundreds of people leave this country to join

:34:13.:34:16.

Isis, we will have hundreds of people convicted of Islamist

:34:17.:34:19.

offences, I think we would have been quite shocked that things have got

:34:20.:34:23.

worse as opposed to getting better. Douglas Murray, the essence of your

:34:24.:34:26.

argument when you made the comparison between the numbers of

:34:27.:34:29.

Muslims in other countries is that we have too much Islam in Britain?

:34:30.:34:34.

The aunt Tilly Muslim Brotherhood give is that the answer to

:34:35.:34:39.

absolutely everything is Islam. Less Islam is a good thing. Let me

:34:40.:34:45.

finish. The Islamic world is in the middle of a very serious problem. It

:34:46.:34:48.

has been going on since the beginning. I think it is not worth

:34:49.:34:52.

continuing to risk our own security simply in order to be politically

:34:53.:34:58.

correct. I would disagree with Douglas on that. Nobody is going to

:34:59.:35:02.

deny that since the end of the 20th century there has been a rise in

:35:03.:35:05.

Islamist extreme terror organisations. Yes, there is a

:35:06.:35:10.

crisis within contemporary Islam, but there is a class. There are

:35:11.:35:14.

competing claims about what the faith stands for. While we are

:35:15.:35:17.

seeing Islamist terror organisations, leading theologians

:35:18.:35:23.

are saying that the concept of a caliphate is outdated. Muslims

:35:24.:35:27.

should be adopting a human rights culture. I entirely agree with that.

:35:28.:35:33.

There are obviously people trying to counter that. I would urge us to

:35:34.:35:39.

take the long view. In the history of Islam there have been many

:35:40.:35:42.

reformers. Most of the time they have ended a up being the ones on

:35:43.:35:47.

the brunt of the violence. I deeply resent what you and others do in

:35:48.:35:51.

this country. I want you to win. But they are a Billy good minority. A

:35:52.:35:57.

poll last year found that two thirds of British Muslims found they would

:35:58.:36:00.

not report a family member they found to be involved in extremism to

:36:01.:36:08.

the police. You are proposing more Draconian measures. I wish they

:36:09.:36:15.

could win. We should do everything we can to support people like that.

:36:16.:36:19.

What we should recognise the scale of the problem is beyond our current

:36:20.:36:25.

understanding. You counter radicalisation on a university

:36:26.:36:28.

campus or online? Discussion we had with Ben Wallace about the material

:36:29.:36:35.

that is out there. If we pursue in a hard-line way perhaps the sort of

:36:36.:36:37.

thing Douglas Murray is suggesting, gone is freedom of speech, gone is

:36:38.:36:45.

freedom of debate and discussion? The best way to counter extremism is

:36:46.:36:49.

through the prism of human rights. We cannot abandon our human rights

:36:50.:36:56.

to fight extremism. Where I think we are going wrong, where there is a

:36:57.:37:02.

gap, is the lack of counter work to challenge Islamist ideals. How many

:37:03.:37:07.

people are going to say we need to counter that strict narrative? That

:37:08.:37:12.

is where we are not doing enough work. What about the human rights

:37:13.:37:19.

point, that you cannot take away people's human rights? I'm not

:37:20.:37:22.

suggesting that. I'm suggesting we do things that ensure that 22 people

:37:23.:37:29.

don't get blown up on an average Monday again, OK? Dissent to be

:37:30.:37:34.

opposed to people want to blow up our daughters is not opposing human

:37:35.:37:41.

rights. If you're taking government money and you are an institution

:37:42.:37:44.

like Salford University you should be held responsible for not

:37:45.:37:47.

cooperating with standard security measures. You can challenge

:37:48.:37:52.

extremism without abandoning human rights. We have got to actually

:37:53.:37:59.

counter the Islamist narrative. We're not doing enough. This is not

:38:00.:38:03.

about closing down free speech. This is encouraging it. This is the most

:38:04.:38:07.

effective way of countering the Islamist narrative. Why isn't it

:38:08.:38:15.

doing better? A number of reasons. One is there is a denial taking

:38:16.:38:19.

place. A lot of apologetics. Part of it is the way we talk about Muslims

:38:20.:38:24.

in this country. We use the term Muslim community as if they are

:38:25.:38:29.

homogenous. There is a positive trend but there is a negative trend

:38:30.:38:32.

among British Muslims. We need to counter those promoting the idea

:38:33.:38:36.

that Muslims are part of a collective identity. I agree. It is

:38:37.:38:42.

also the case there is massive push back because a lot of Muslims are

:38:43.:38:45.

defending the faith in this country. We think we can push them down a

:38:46.:38:49.

better path but they are defending absolutely everything. We need to

:38:50.:38:52.

get real about that. Thank you very much.

:38:53.:38:54.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:38:55.:38:56.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:38:57.:38:58.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.

:38:59.:39:09.

Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.

:39:10.:39:11.

Election campaigning has resumed following a pause for a number

:39:12.:39:14.

of days as a mark of respect for the victims of the

:39:15.:39:18.

We'll ask how much the events of last Monday night have changed

:39:19.:39:24.

the tone of the debate in the run up to June 8th.

:39:25.:39:28.

And we'll hear from the leader of the SDLP, Colum Eastwood,

:39:29.:39:30.

on the challenge of retaining his party's three Westminster seats.

:39:31.:39:32.

Plus, here to share their thoughts on all of that and more,

:39:33.:39:35.

my guests of the day are Patricia MacBride

:39:36.:39:37.

Politicians are back on the campaign trail this weekend after a pausing

:39:38.:39:49.

as a mark of respect to those killed in the Manchester bomb.

:39:50.:39:54.

Unionists accused Sinn Fein of hypocrisy by condemning

:39:55.:39:56.

the attack but not condemning the previous IRA

:39:57.:39:58.

Sinn Fein says the criticism is outrageous and that the party has

:39:59.:40:03.

Let's hear the thoughts of Sophie Long and Patricia MacBride.

:40:04.:40:07.

Welcome to you both. Let's talk about that situation, the SDLP and

:40:08.:40:16.

alliance accuse the unionist parties are playing part of tics foot --

:40:17.:40:22.

politics by attacking Sinn Fein over this issue. Is that fair? I think it

:40:23.:40:35.

is. It's simply not going to happen. More importantly, the people who are

:40:36.:40:38.

considering voting for Sinn Fein are not going to be swayed either way

:40:39.:40:44.

whether that statement is made or not, they will vote the way they

:40:45.:40:48.

intended. It was an attempt at trying to bring her into a position

:40:49.:40:52.

where Michelle doesn't have any baggage in terms of the conflict,

:40:53.:40:59.

she was never a Republican prisoner, she has no background in that area.

:41:00.:41:05.

She has family connections. But if you delve deep enough into any one's

:41:06.:41:08.

family is, there will be connections. It is a doll and it is

:41:09.:41:15.

disingenuous politics, trying to get her to react in that way.

:41:16.:41:18.

Is it a damned if they do damned if they don't

:41:19.:41:21.

It's incredibly difficult to ask them to make these broad moral

:41:22.:41:29.

statements when their existence and their identities as a political

:41:30.:41:33.

party is founded on this partial moral view on the use of violence

:41:34.:41:37.

which a lot of her supporters still see as having some legitimacy. As

:41:38.:41:41.

Patricia points out, they are looking ahead to the election. I

:41:42.:41:46.

think on the one hand you can say that, yes, absolutely all violence

:41:47.:41:51.

is wrong. If you want to be taken as a publicly reasonable person, you

:41:52.:41:55.

cannot make any exceptions. But Sinn Fein are in a difficult spot here.

:41:56.:41:58.

Of course certain parties are tried to push them into a corner to make

:41:59.:42:01.

controversial statements and alienate themselves from their base.

:42:02.:42:02.

Jeremy Corbyn has come in for a lot of criticism for his past

:42:03.:42:05.

He has now condemned all acts of irate violence after coming under

:42:06.:42:14.

pressure to distance himself from the group's activities. To think

:42:15.:42:17.

that will continue to be an issue between now and June eight? The

:42:18.:42:22.

Tories will continue to make it an issue, but it was touring ministers

:42:23.:42:27.

who are meeting the Republicans in the 1970s, before Jeremy Corbyn ever

:42:28.:42:31.

did. We will hear more from you later in the programme.

:42:32.:42:33.

Now - will unionists ride to the rescue of the SDLP to help it

:42:34.:42:36.

hold on to its three Westminister seats?

:42:37.:42:38.

As the party comes under pressue from Sinn Fein,

:42:39.:42:40.

Colum Eastwood has called on unionists to vote for his party.

:42:41.:42:43.

Or has Brexit made them more concerned about the Union

:42:44.:42:46.

than helping the SDLP outpoll Sinn Fein?

:42:47.:42:48.

I'm joined by the SDLP leader, Colum Eastwood.

:42:49.:42:51.

Welcome to you. Thank you for joining us. It looks as though you

:42:52.:42:57.

were openly concerned that you will struggle to hold onto your receipts

:42:58.:43:01.

on June eight. How worried are you that the market decline in recent

:43:02.:43:06.

years will be accelerated in the selection? We just had an election a

:43:07.:43:10.

few weeks ago where we retained 12 seats and a reduced Assembly. The

:43:11.:43:17.

SDLP just had a very good election. You want me to list the previous

:43:18.:43:24.

elections were you did badly? We have had four campaigns in the month

:43:25.:43:29.

I've been the leader. We just had a very good election. We've gone up

:43:30.:43:32.

for the first time in a long time and I think that is a very good

:43:33.:43:37.

start. Different electoral system, much more challenging I would think

:43:38.:43:41.

for the SDLP this time around. It is and it isn't. We are in a tight

:43:42.:43:45.

fight in all three of the constituents that we hold. --

:43:46.:43:49.

constituencies. We are telling people that we are in a tight fight

:43:50.:43:53.

and we're telling people to come out and vote for us. And I think people,

:43:54.:43:57.

whether you vote for Sinn Fein, traditionally in SDLP boater or

:43:58.:44:02.

union is concerned about Brexit, the only choices to vote SDLP, we have

:44:03.:44:08.

been the most pro-European party, we campaigned against Brexit, we have

:44:09.:44:11.

worked against Brexit ever since we voted against it, we have spoken

:44:12.:44:21.

against it in the House Commons. The other party will support Theresa

:44:22.:44:24.

May, they think he is a fantastic Prime Minister and Sinn Fein won't

:44:25.:44:27.

do anything at all. A vote for Sinn Fein in the election is a wasted

:44:28.:44:34.

vote. The fight for these seats will be take, you push the unionist vote

:44:35.:44:39.

for the SDLP. How could that be considered anything other than a

:44:40.:44:45.

lasted ditch move? Diver member Martin McGuinness standing and

:44:46.:44:50.

appealing for unionist votes. I remember Jerry McAdams as well. We

:44:51.:44:56.

are asking people to vote for the party that will stand up for their

:44:57.:45:00.

interests. I am an Irish nationalist, there was no denying

:45:01.:45:05.

that or returning I am not. If you tell people, if you vote for

:45:06.:45:08.

Unionists normally or Sinn Fein, you're worried about a heart Brexit,

:45:09.:45:12.

the only party in this election in this Parliament in this Chamber who

:45:13.:45:16.

I actually stand up for you as the SDLP. I don't think anybody can say

:45:17.:45:21.

otherwise. Sinn Fein don't even go, they make it public, in this

:45:22.:45:27.

election they will have no impact at all in Westminster. It's a strange

:45:28.:45:39.

mixed mission. You are telling unionist to vote SDLP or they'll get

:45:40.:45:43.

Sinn Fein. I have not mentioned Sinn Fein when appealing for unionist

:45:44.:45:47.

votes. If people want strong representation, standing up against

:45:48.:45:51.

a hard border and heart Brexit and hard Tory government, of coarse they

:45:52.:45:55.

should vote for the SDLP. We are not going to pretend we are not Irish

:45:56.:46:00.

nationalists. Rather than Sinn Fein is what you are effectively saying?

:46:01.:46:05.

I don't think unionist will vote for Sinn Fein. Or you will get Sinn

:46:06.:46:12.

Fein? I am asking traditional Sinn Fein voters to vote for us as well.

:46:13.:46:18.

I asked for Sinn Fein voters to do the same. I am saying, if people

:46:19.:46:22.

want proper representation in Westminster, it is a pretty obvious

:46:23.:46:27.

choice. If they want to see people standing against Tory cuts, people

:46:28.:46:32.

standing against a hard border, of course they have to vote for the

:46:33.:46:35.

SDLP. Other parties won't do that. At the start of this campaign, you

:46:36.:46:40.

were at the forefront of trying to put together a pack that included

:46:41.:46:42.

your party in Sinn Fein, much to the annoyance of unionist. That pact

:46:43.:46:48.

crumbles in a few days, it was a disaster, you were exposed. Now

:46:49.:46:52.

you're turning around and saying how Unionists, over me. I was trying to

:46:53.:46:59.

create a broad-based alliance. It didn't work. Because the Alliance

:47:00.:47:03.

Party came out straightaway and told us we were all sectarian for even

:47:04.:47:07.

considering working together. That forced the Green Party... But they

:47:08.:47:13.

said... It was very clear that that is not what she was saying, Naomi

:47:14.:47:17.

Long. The Alliance Party said that the Green Party were now tainted.

:47:18.:47:23.

She did not say that. When I spoke to Naomi Long about it, she said she

:47:24.:47:27.

absolutely didn't say it, wouldn't say it and wasn't happy that it was

:47:28.:47:33.

a party statement. A party statement that was saying something like that

:47:34.:47:36.

would not go out unless I had seen it. No way. When the party, the

:47:37.:47:42.

Alliance Party say that the Green Party are tainted for working with

:47:43.:47:45.

nationalists, it's a very strange departure for the Alliance Party.

:47:46.:47:51.

You have to go looking for other party's voters to get you over the

:47:52.:47:56.

line. Where are your own voters? Every party looks for voters right

:47:57.:47:58.

across the spectrum in every election. I told you already, Sinn

:47:59.:48:04.

Fein asking for unionist votes. This is an election where we are looking

:48:05.:48:08.

for every vote we can possibly get. We are looking for traditional SDLP

:48:09.:48:11.

voters as well. Are great Richie said, when she was returned in 2015,

:48:12.:48:16.

she did it without unionist votes. She said she didn't need them. Now,

:48:17.:48:21.

surprise, surprise, she has changed her tune and she is looking for

:48:22.:48:26.

unionist votes. She always said she would take votes from anybody who

:48:27.:48:30.

wants proper representation... With a margin that she won that the bike,

:48:31.:48:34.

it meant that she didn't need all the unionist votes. She represents

:48:35.:48:42.

people from whatever background in South Down. The problem is,

:48:43.:48:46.

Margaret's main opponent won't represent anybody because he won't

:48:47.:48:49.

go to Westminster. He admits that upfront. If people vote for them,

:48:50.:48:56.

they know that is the deal. We accept that. But in this particular

:48:57.:49:01.

election with Brexit on the horizon, for any influence at all, we should

:49:02.:49:06.

go everywhere we possibly can go, whether it's a European Parliament,

:49:07.:49:11.

where Sinn Fein have four MPs out of 751, or Westminster where we have

:49:12.:49:14.

three. Etiquette is important that we turn up, give a voice to the

:49:15.:49:17.

people who are worried about the heart Brexit, goods or to a

:49:18.:49:20.

potential Tory government in the polls are now nearing so much that

:49:21.:49:23.

it looks as if we could even have a hung parliament if those polls stay

:49:24.:49:29.

the same. The idea that not turning up is a viable option in this

:49:30.:49:33.

election, I don't think it is true at all. Using Margaret Ritchie is

:49:34.:49:44.

the clear choice in South down. The reason I ask this question is that

:49:45.:49:48.

you're hugely critical of him when you are campaigning to unseat him

:49:49.:49:52.

not long ago, as party leader. Why should people believe you when you

:49:53.:49:59.

say he is up to the step? When did I say I was critical of Alasdair

:50:00.:50:06.

McDonnell? Because he wasn't... This is a battle for Westminster. The

:50:07.:50:09.

battle in South Down, whatever anybody tries to tell you it is

:50:10.:50:15.

between two people, it is between Alasdair McDonnell and Emma. Have

:50:16.:50:20.

you been out campaigning for him? It's a bit late in the campaign.

:50:21.:50:24.

Have you been out with Margaret Ritchie and Mark Durkan? A number of

:50:25.:50:31.

times. But not Alasdair McDonnell? I have a plan for next week. I was

:50:32.:50:35.

meant to be with him next Tuesday, but we took a positive campaign. He

:50:36.:50:40.

wanted 2015 with the smallest share of the vote ever in Westminster

:50:41.:50:45.

election. People in South Belfast understand that 78% of them voted to

:50:46.:50:50.

remain in the European Union. It is between Emma, who will be a

:50:51.:50:55.

cheerleader for Theresa May, or Alasdair McDonnell. They put out

:50:56.:51:03.

figures that didn't stack up, a finance minister who put up figures

:51:04.:51:07.

that didn't stand up about the results in the last number of years.

:51:08.:51:13.

I don't know the figures stack up or don't stack up, they are not here,

:51:14.:51:17.

but the SDLP vote is down in a constituency in the Sinn Fein vote

:51:18.:51:20.

is up. You don't deny that, do you? No. But even the commentators are

:51:21.:51:26.

telling us Alice McDonnell is the only chance to wind in a

:51:27.:51:29.

constituency against Emma. People on the ground understand that, the know

:51:30.:51:36.

he has stood up for them in the last couple of years. And he has won

:51:37.:51:40.

every time people have told them he wouldn't wind. It is a two horse

:51:41.:51:46.

race, between Alastair and Emma. Other candidates wouldn't see as a

:51:47.:51:49.

two horse race, but we will see in due course how that goes out. You

:51:50.:51:54.

went and put your neck on the line to get an anti-Brexit put together,

:51:55.:51:58.

and you failed. Do you accept that as a misjudgment on your part? Not

:51:59.:52:03.

at all. Would you do the same thing again with the benefit of hindsight?

:52:04.:52:11.

Absolutely. I think we should reinforce the referendum result in

:52:12.:52:16.

Northern Ireland in we should send a strong message here who don't want a

:52:17.:52:21.

heart Brexit or heart border, wanted remain in the custom union, in a

:52:22.:52:27.

single market... -- hard border, heart Brexit. There was a lot of

:52:28.:52:37.

negotiation... He doesn't want a hard border, but he wants custom

:52:38.:52:42.

checks of some sort. We will see how that goes out in the next couple of

:52:43.:52:46.

years. We had one year to negotiate this. The SDLP are on the Brexit

:52:47.:52:53.

committee in Westminster. It was the SDLP who for Steven Davis to make a

:52:54.:52:57.

concession that Northern Ireland would be able to automatically

:52:58.:53:02.

re-enter the European Union, a hugely significant thing that the

:53:03.:53:05.

British Government has accepted because in Scotland, for example,

:53:06.:53:11.

unionist debug Scotland, the Tory government have been saying that

:53:12.:53:16.

Scotland not be able to enter the European Union. -- unionist of

:53:17.:53:22.

Scotland. What other people were talking about border control what

:53:23.:53:27.

ever about Brexit, I don't know if you believe this election will be

:53:28.:53:31.

about art that, but it is about getting the institutions up and

:53:32.:53:34.

running again at storm and for a lot of people. Do you believe that is

:53:35.:53:39.

doable between the election on June eight and the deadline which is now

:53:40.:53:43.

been put by the secretary of state of June nine? -- Stormont. I am an

:53:44.:53:49.

optimist, I bequeath you do this if we get our heads together. We have

:53:50.:53:53.

been negotiating for weeks, we know how to fix this. At the people in

:53:54.:53:58.

the DUP understand they have to accept that Irishness is here to

:53:59.:54:01.

stay covered the people who care about the Irish language is here to

:54:02.:54:08.

stay. We need to get this deal done. If we change the Petition of

:54:09.:54:13.

Concern, if we put it back to where it's supposed to be, it should be

:54:14.:54:17.

used to protect rights, not blocked them. We could move forward. Other

:54:18.:54:21.

red bias, whether or not Sinn Fein will support Arlene Foster as First

:54:22.:54:28.

Minister, and one has said that they want on this side of a report...

:54:29.:54:32.

There are ways around that. I think Arlene Foster should go early to

:54:33.:54:37.

that inquiry and get that evidence out of the way and let's see that.

:54:38.:54:46.

She says should be First Minister. This incentive issues are what

:54:47.:54:54.

matter to me. -- substantive issues. I know what people to block progress

:54:55.:54:58.

on gay rights or Irish language or anything else. -- I don't want

:54:59.:55:03.

people to block. We think we he get this over the line. You think Sinn

:55:04.:55:10.

Fein wants a return to the devolved situation? They keep telling me that

:55:11.:55:15.

they do. Do you believe that? I don't know. You don't know whether

:55:16.:55:20.

to believe them? I think there was an internal debate whether it is

:55:21.:55:24.

right strategy reform them. We need to make sure there is no scorched

:55:25.:55:28.

earth, we have to work on all the issues. There was no point in

:55:29.:55:33.

winning a big mandate if you don't use it. How will we know with this

:55:34.:55:38.

election has been a success for Colin Eastwood and the SDLP? If you

:55:39.:55:42.

lose two seats come with three seats, you are in deep water. I

:55:43.:55:49.

don't know how... What I worry about is if the SDLP lose seats to people

:55:50.:55:53.

who are either going to go and support Theresa May or people who

:55:54.:56:00.

aren't going to go in the poll, but... You could lose all three

:56:01.:56:03.

seats, but you would continue being the leader. Is that what you're

:56:04.:56:09.

saying? This is my fourth campaign in 18 months. No one expected that.

:56:10.:56:13.

We have a long-term plan to change the SDLP and bring around a good

:56:14.:56:16.

change in society here. I'm confident we could do that in the

:56:17.:56:20.

long term. You're confident you will win them. If you don't win those

:56:21.:56:27.

seats, will there be an SDLP to lead? Absolutely, if there wasn't it

:56:28.:56:32.

would be a poorer place. Every election, journalists and

:56:33.:56:35.

commentators tell us that we are finished, and every election they

:56:36.:56:39.

change their mind. A few weeks ago, we came back with more seats

:56:40.:56:46.

proportionate to the Assembly. Thank you very much indeed.

:56:47.:56:48.

Let's hear more from my guests Sophie Long and Patricia MacBride.

:56:49.:56:53.

There are challenges for the SDLP. Would you be positive that it will

:56:54.:57:00.

come out to the other end of this process with its tail up or not? I

:57:01.:57:05.

did the SDLP will be in a difficult position in this election at the

:57:06.:57:11.

Assembly election, there percentage of the vote increase. They may see

:57:12.:57:16.

themselves losing seats even if that happens in this election. South is

:57:17.:57:19.

addressed and South Belfast is at risk to a DUP loss. I'm not sure not

:57:20.:57:25.

Sinn Fein can take that seat, but they are putting in a very strong

:57:26.:57:31.

fight there. What about Foyle? I don't think that is at risk at this

:57:32.:57:35.

point in time, Mark Durkan has a solid enough base. But there may be

:57:36.:57:42.

a position where SDLP vote share goes up with a number of seats go

:57:43.:57:45.

down. That would be a difficult one to spin when it came out to the

:57:46.:57:58.

other side of the election. You think that anyone will heed his call

:57:59.:58:06.

to vote for the SDLP? 85% of TV voters voted for Brexit. -- TUV. You

:58:07.:58:15.

think he will change the dynamics? There are unionist and South Danae

:58:16.:58:17.

who have voted for Margaret Ritchie in the past. And the difficulty is,

:58:18.:58:23.

in Northern Ireland, it's going to come down to keeping the extreme,

:58:24.:58:27.

which some people perceive as Sinn Fein out. Unionists might give their

:58:28.:58:34.

vote to the SDLP, but there are other issues that have not been

:58:35.:58:43.

raised in SDLP, like their strong NT opinion on women accessing sexual

:58:44.:58:50.

health services. It is quick obligated. Attend the what basis

:58:51.:58:54.

people decide to cast their ballot, doesn't it? I do agree with you.

:58:55.:58:59.

Part of this election is we are election wary after just coming

:59:00.:59:02.

through an Assembly campaign. There were certainly not the same level of

:59:03.:59:06.

dynamism as he was in the campaign. The stakes of the Messiah. This

:59:07.:59:12.

election is being fought on what are we going back to Stormont, not how

:59:13.:59:17.

we are going to deal with Brexit. -- the stakes are quite high.

:59:18.:59:20.

The Conservatives are running candidates in seven constituencies

:59:21.:59:23.

The party has failed to gain any substantial foothold over the years

:59:24.:59:26.

despite a collaboration with the Ulster Unionists which gave

:59:27.:59:29.

birth to the failed UCUNF experiment in the 2010 general election.

:59:30.:59:31.

So what do Conservatives have to offer?

:59:32.:59:33.

On the 8th of June, the option for the people of Northern Ireland and

:59:34.:59:39.

the United Kingdom is very simple. You can either vote for the

:59:40.:59:42.

coalition of chaos, Jeremy Corbyn and Labour, and of course the very

:59:43.:59:48.

clear in Northern Ireland, we have our own coalition of chaos, that is

:59:49.:59:53.

a correlation of Stormont between DUP and Sinn Fein. Just yesterday we

:59:54.:59:58.

had the updates on the RHI scandal costing upwards of ?490 million, so

:59:59.:00:06.

my message to the people ,, the great people, is that you could vote

:00:07.:00:10.

for the party of Government, the Conservative Party, to do a late

:00:11.:00:13.

with this coalition of chaos so we can move to that stronger leadership

:00:14.:00:16.

of Theresa May from the 8th of June. Mark Logan from the NI

:00:17.:00:19.

Conservatives. Patricia and Sophie

:00:20.:00:21.

are still with me. The Conservatives have never made

:00:22.:00:23.

much of an impact here - why not? The political right is a crowded

:00:24.:00:32.

field here. People have other options. There has always been a

:00:33.:00:36.

sense that they are disinterested in Northern Ireland, you could see that

:00:37.:00:39.

in the refusal of Theresa May to come here during the crisis talks. I

:00:40.:00:44.

think that speaks volumes. It is a crowded field and also people are

:00:45.:00:51.

responding to disinterest. You Seo reason for that to change in this

:00:52.:00:58.

election? -- you don't see a recent? People don't identify with the

:00:59.:01:02.

conservative party, it is as simple as that. Some do. Not in a great

:01:03.:01:10.

number. They have indications have... Success. But there was also

:01:11.:01:17.

his spectacular failure that someone left the unionist party because of

:01:18.:01:22.

the agreement that was made between the Ulster Unionist and

:01:23.:01:24.

Conservatives in the past. That was obviously a big loss. I don't see

:01:25.:01:28.

them coming back in terms of being able to secure any significant

:01:29.:01:32.

number of seats, even in local Government. Final question, again

:01:33.:01:38.

something to churches had earlier. Are voters election wary? The fact

:01:39.:01:49.

that we could have significant change Thomas we haven't been able

:01:50.:01:54.

to put this into practical use. People are losing their faith in the

:01:55.:01:58.

electoral political process. If you very much indeed. That is it from

:01:59.:02:01.

us. very much indeed. That is it from

:02:02.:02:03.

re-elected. Is the That's it - now back

:02:04.:02:04.

to Jo in London. That's it - now back

:02:05.:02:04.

re-elected. Is the only choice for strong and stable leadership.

:02:05.:02:06.

Now, after the Manchester attack, will the final week of election

:02:07.:02:20.

campaigning different in tone from what came before? My panel are here.

:02:21.:02:27.

Tim Marshall, it will be very front of Centre for the next few days. Is

:02:28.:02:31.

that a good thing for the election if it is going to be framed to who

:02:32.:02:37.

do you feel more safe with? It is inevitable but I think it will only

:02:38.:02:41.

be part of the election. As I said before the opt out, for many voters

:02:42.:02:46.

this is also about economics, unemployment. It is not all about

:02:47.:02:52.

Brexit, nor is it only about security. What it will do, I hope,

:02:53.:02:58.

is get the tone of the debate right. Although I have already seen the

:02:59.:03:02.

tone being lowered. I wasn't impressed with Mr Corbyn's speech

:03:03.:03:07.

last week blaming it on a foreign policy, which is a wafer thin

:03:08.:03:12.

analysis of what is going on. Inappropriate timing too soon? No, I

:03:13.:03:17.

think the argument is utter nonsense. I don't want to attack

:03:18.:03:26.

just one side. The Conservative party, I've forgotten which minister

:03:27.:03:29.

has already said that we would be safer under a Tory Prime Minister,

:03:30.:03:34.

it has got nothing to do with Labour or Tory government, the next Islamic

:03:35.:03:42.

attack. It is to do with jihadist ideology, not party policies. You

:03:43.:03:49.

raise an important issue about tone. It also points to a broader

:03:50.:03:53.

argument, one we were having earlier, has politics been two

:03:54.:03:56.

courses with this issue of extremism? Has the conversation

:03:57.:04:02.

about it tiptoed around some of the sensitive issues? And by the media.

:04:03.:04:08.

You highlight the problem of this being part of the election campaign

:04:09.:04:15.

by saying, has politics been too cautious? Who do you mean by

:04:16.:04:19.

politics? And in an election campaign there is a duty to be a

:04:20.:04:24.

divide, and adamant about values, policies etc. Security is an issue

:04:25.:04:31.

that transcends those political divides. So I think it is deeply

:04:32.:04:36.

unhealthy. It is nobody's fault a tragedy occurred. But if you ask me

:04:37.:04:42.

does it help or enhance an election debate? Emphatically not. A tragic

:04:43.:04:49.

event brings politics, as you call it, together. Security is an issue

:04:50.:04:56.

that is complex and doesn't divide neatly. Elections are political

:04:57.:05:02.

battles, by definition. So I think the coming together of this, a

:05:03.:05:08.

tragedy occurred anyway, but it is an unfortunate context. Do you agree

:05:09.:05:15.

or do you think this is a time to talk about these issues? Is it a

:05:16.:05:19.

time to review the level of argument? This is a political

:05:20.:05:24.

debate. I personally think the politicians should have been out and

:05:25.:05:27.

about on Wednesday. There is no wrong time to get it right. We

:05:28.:05:34.

mustn't let the terrorists affect our way of life. But they have when

:05:35.:05:41.

we disrupt the election campaign. It may be party political. But for a

:05:42.:05:45.

lot of voters, including me, I want to hear from party leaders. What do

:05:46.:05:50.

you plan to do about this? Right now, I've not heard anything that

:05:51.:05:56.

suggests any of these parties have got to grips with the real problem,

:05:57.:05:59.

which is that we are not actually tackling the problem in our midst.

:06:00.:06:03.

Douglas Murray touched on it earlier. We have not even come to

:06:04.:06:08.

grips with the scale of the problem. Does Labour have a grip -- Power

:06:09.:06:16.

Point in terms of terrorist legislation? It is complicated. And

:06:17.:06:21.

not all of it has worked or is used enough by government? It is another

:06:22.:06:26.

example where this doesn't work in an election debate because David

:06:27.:06:31.

Davis has opposed a lot of this terrorism legislation. He is now

:06:32.:06:35.

heading Brexit. There is a civil liberties argument which I

:06:36.:06:42.

personally have doubts about. Again, it brings people together from the

:06:43.:06:47.

major parties. And Corbyn didn't actually say it was the cause of

:06:48.:06:51.

terrorism, British foreign policy, but it helped to facilitate

:06:52.:06:55.

terrorism, which is a different argument. Again, that would be

:06:56.:06:59.

supported by some Tories as well. That is why it is difficult in an

:07:00.:07:04.

election campaign for this issue to dominate. The front page of the

:07:05.:07:08.

Sunday Times talks about a campaign relaunch, which may not, grow as a

:07:09.:07:11.

great surprise following the social care fiasco. Do we know what that

:07:12.:07:18.

will entail? It sounds like Boris Johnson will play a role. The whole

:07:19.:07:23.

point is it was all about Theresa May and it turns out that is not

:07:24.:07:28.

quite good enough. The more we have seen of Theresa May, the less

:07:29.:07:31.

impressive she has looked. Certainly the Andrew Neil interview just

:07:32.:07:36.

repeating the same thing again and again. Voters don't like that. They

:07:37.:07:40.

like people who are honest and actually engage with them. When we

:07:41.:07:44.

see beat interviews in the next few days, I think it will be interesting

:07:45.:07:48.

to see if she changes tack and tries to engage with what people are

:07:49.:07:53.

asking. If it is back to leadership and Brexit, and the economy, will

:07:54.:07:59.

that be more comfortable ground? I think so. I understand framing it in

:08:00.:08:09.

terms of Brexit. But she has got to broaden it out. I think that is why

:08:10.:08:13.

she is broadening it out. I don't think the tragic events will

:08:14.:08:21.

absolutely dominate. That would be a small victory for terrorism. This is

:08:22.:08:25.

a country of 65 million people with an awful lot of issues. We have 65

:08:26.:08:31.

million votes, well, 65 million people with opinions in two weeks.

:08:32.:08:37.

It is quite a long campaign. There is still time to go. What do you

:08:38.:08:41.

think Labour will be focusing on from now on? I would imagine they

:08:42.:08:47.

will look very closely at where they are well ahead in the opinion polls

:08:48.:08:52.

and focus on that relentlessly. Public services, NHS etc. And try to

:08:53.:08:58.

get it off as soon as possible from security and fees is used which, on

:08:59.:09:03.

one level at least, appear to be a gift to the Conservatives. I assume

:09:04.:09:07.

that is what they are going to do. But this is a very unpredictable

:09:08.:09:11.

campaign where nothing has gone according to plan. Let's look ahead.

:09:12.:09:15.

On Wednesday evening we have got an election debate. It is in Cambridge.

:09:16.:09:22.

Leaders of some of the parties. Amber Rudd will be representing the

:09:23.:09:27.

Conservatives. We don't know yet who will represent Labour. Today we have

:09:28.:09:32.

had Amber Road and Diane Abbott against each other on Andrew Marr.

:09:33.:09:37.

Let's have a look. I think there is something to be said for a Home

:09:38.:09:41.

Secretary who has actually worked in the Home Office. I work in the home

:09:42.:09:45.

office for nearly three years as a graduate trainee. This government

:09:46.:09:49.

has always felt that urgency. That is why we have been putting in

:09:50.:09:54.

additional money. It is significant that the commission for extremism in

:09:55.:09:57.

the manifesto was put in before Manchester. We need to do more. You

:09:58.:10:02.

voted against prescribing those groups. Because there were groups on

:10:03.:10:08.

that list I deemed to be dissidents rather than terrorist organisations.

:10:09.:10:12.

We are making good progress with the companies who put in place

:10:13.:10:15.

encryption. We will continue to build on that. It was 34 years ago.

:10:16.:10:22.

I had a rather splendid Afro at the time. I don't have the same

:10:23.:10:26.

hairstyle. And I don't have the same views. It is 34 years on. The

:10:27.:10:32.

hairstyle has gone. Some of the views have gone. So you no longer,

:10:33.:10:37.

you regret what you said about the IRA? The hairstyle has gone, the

:10:38.:10:44.

views have gone. I would say to Diane Abbott that I have changed my

:10:45.:10:47.

hairstyle are few times in 34 years but I have not changed my view of

:10:48.:10:54.

how we keep the British public safe. Let's get away from hairstyle sides

:10:55.:10:57.

talk about the prospect of the two of them taking part in the election

:10:58.:11:03.

debate. Would you like to see that? On one level I would like to see it

:11:04.:11:09.

and another the level I would like to see an intelligent debate. I'm

:11:10.:11:12.

glad I never had an Afro or supported the IRA. Whenever Diane

:11:13.:11:17.

Abbott steps out in a TV studio or a radio studio, Labour haemorrhage

:11:18.:11:24.

votes. She cannot say things like my regret supporting this or that

:11:25.:11:29.

legislation. She is an absolute disaster. If Labour put her up, they

:11:30.:11:34.

are beyond mad. Who do you think Labour

:11:35.:11:35.

are beyond mad. Who do you think are beyond mad. Who do you think

:11:36.:11:44.

Labour should put up? By the way, I did have an Afro! I based my whole

:11:45.:11:49.

log on Kevin Keegan and it was good. That is the wrong question. I will

:11:50.:11:56.

explain why. The Labour campaign, it seems to me there were only five or

:11:57.:12:06.

six people put up. That is the fault of others who refused to take part.

:12:07.:12:10.

It also shows the degree to which the current leadership can only rely

:12:11.:12:14.

on five or six people. I would imagine we are talking about a pool

:12:15.:12:19.

of five or six people. As for my judgment as to who the best public

:12:20.:12:23.

performer is in that pool, it would be by some margin John McDonnell,

:12:24.:12:26.

who is a very good interviewee and performer. I think he is a very good

:12:27.:12:35.

performer. It would come back to the economy at some point, presumably.

:12:36.:12:43.

But then it comes back to the IRA. I don't think the debate will be very

:12:44.:12:48.

illuminating. I think if Amber Rudd is there, Diane Abbott should be

:12:49.:12:52.

there. I think the leaders should be debating. Some people say it is

:12:53.:12:56.

froth. I think the leader -- the electorate gets a sense of the

:12:57.:13:00.

leaders. On haircuts, I would like to thank both of them are talking

:13:01.:13:05.

about the haircuts. I am looking forward to tomorrow's papers and the

:13:06.:13:08.

theme that will run through the week. Let's not finish on the hair.

:13:09.:13:15.

Thank you very much for being our guests. That is it for today. Thank

:13:16.:13:23.

the panel for Jonny May. Andrew Neil will be back next weekend. And I

:13:24.:13:29.

will be back on BBC Two on Tuesday. That is at midday with more daily

:13:30.:13:33.

politics. In the meantime, have a very lovely bank holiday. From all

:13:34.:13:35.

of us here, bye-bye. It's cold.

:13:36.:14:05.

Tastes a bit like avocado. And soon we're all

:14:06.:14:10.

going to be eating them. Four crickets have the same amount

:14:11.:14:14.

of calcium as a glass of milk,

:14:15.:14:18.

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