11/03/2012 Sunday Politics Scotland


11/03/2012

Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser with political news and interviews, including work and pensions secretary Iain Duncan Smith and chief secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander.


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Transcript


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Welcome to the Sunday politics. Has a government commission on a

:00:49.:00:54.

British Coal operates at been erected by the Justice Secretary?

:00:54.:00:57.

The explosive allegation of a member of the Commission on the

:00:57.:01:02.

verge of resigning his post this morning. And as the Government's

:01:03.:01:08.

welfare reforms become or will the changes really transform Britain?

:01:08.:01:14.

The Work and Pensions Secretary joins us. All that, and Danny

:01:14.:01:24.
:01:24.:01:27.

The First Minister Alex Salmond joins us on the second day of the

:01:27.:01:30.

party's spring conference. And what really makes kids happy? How

:01:30.:01:32.

materialistic have our children become? UNICEF is putting parents

:01:32.:01:42.
:01:42.:01:42.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1667 seconds

:01:42.:29:29.

Peak weekend say that when Universal Credit concern everybody

:29:29.:29:33.

all it will be better than it -- better off than they wear on

:29:33.:29:40.

benefits. Supposing Act Institute comes to

:29:40.:29:47.

see you for advice. He is offered a promotion which would take him over

:29:47.:29:52.

the higher rate of threshold and as a result would lose child benefit.

:29:52.:29:57.

How do you advise, take the job or not?

:29:57.:30:06.

Always. Even if you lose �1,700?

:30:06.:30:11.

You are always better off if you take a job that improves your

:30:11.:30:15.

options. The interplay with child benefit is a simple fact of life.

:30:15.:30:22.

You are dealing with the way it is about to be set by the Budget. It

:30:22.:30:26.

will be withdrawn from people on higher income. That is a reality

:30:26.:30:29.

for those people. But the Government does not have a huge

:30:29.:30:35.

amount of money and we need to pay off our deficit. So there is only

:30:35.:30:45.
:30:45.:30:47.

Can I ask you for a brief reaction to the idea of a UK Bill of Rights,

:30:47.:30:51.

the claims that there is no need for the commission, what do you

:30:51.:30:56.

say? These meetings are not in the

:30:56.:31:03.

public domain and I do not know what was on by closed doors. All I

:31:03.:31:10.

can say is that my Permanent Secretary is to a pet -- fair and

:31:10.:31:15.

decent man, someone who has given a lot of his life to public service,

:31:15.:31:20.

in my experience he was straight and had no attempt -- made no

:31:20.:31:30.
:31:30.:31:35.

attack took -- made no attempt to It is just after 11:30am. You are

:31:35.:31:41.

watching the Sunday politics. Welcome to the Scottish edition.

:31:41.:31:49.

Coming up: the SNP faithful queue at a conference to here that home-

:31:49.:31:56.

rule is better than Conservative rule. Alex Salmond is with us live.

:31:56.:32:00.

And a politician who did most to expose the phone hacking scandal

:32:00.:32:04.

says that Alex Salmond should distance himself from Rupert

:32:04.:32:10.

Murdoch. He is the only Western leader that

:32:10.:32:13.

Rupert Murdoch seems to be cosying up to. It is not in the interests

:32:13.:32:19.

of the Scottish people. Minimum pricing for alcohol is back

:32:19.:32:22.

on the legislative agenda, this time with backing from the

:32:22.:32:29.

Conservatives. And what makes hour family is

:32:29.:32:38.

happy? The latest video games, or more time with the family?

:32:38.:32:42.

Alex Salmond has warned Scots they face a clear choice in the

:32:42.:32:47.

forthcoming referendum - independence or Conservative rule

:32:47.:32:51.

from Westminster. I will be talking to the First Minister in a few

:32:51.:33:01.
:33:01.:33:02.

minutes. What a difference be here makes. Last year's spring

:33:02.:33:08.

conference saw the SNP behind in the polls and potential losers. 12

:33:08.:33:12.

months on they have a majority government and are pursuing a

:33:12.:33:16.

independence referendum. This conference is a very busy indeed.

:33:16.:33:20.

They have been queuing for two hours to get in and see Alex

:33:20.:33:26.

Salmond. They are looking to hear a vision on how the First Minister

:33:26.:33:32.

can deliver the party its historic aim, independence.

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I have been in favour of independence ever since I was a

:33:36.:33:41.

small child. I do not want to see any more of the Conservatives.

:33:42.:33:46.

Accentuating the positive aspects of independence, reassuring the

:33:46.:33:52.

electorate of the economic argument. The message was simple and familiar

:33:52.:33:59.

when it came. Independence could, London, Westminster, the

:33:59.:34:05.

Conservatives, bad. The Prime Minister tried to dictate

:34:05.:34:11.

the terms but I have a message - the days of politicians and London

:34:11.:34:18.

telling Scotland what to do and think, they are over.

:34:18.:34:24.

This was a clear attempt to detoxify the pro-union brand.

:34:24.:34:34.
:34:34.:34:36.

Little wonder the referendum date is six months... It was almost as

:34:36.:34:40.

if the Scottish Parliament and its powers did not exist but then he

:34:40.:34:45.

came to the more subtle side of the argument. Look at our record any

:34:45.:34:51.

areas of crime and health. A we're showing our friends in

:34:51.:34:55.

England that there is an alternative. Let me be clear,

:34:55.:35:00.

because of the independence we have over the health service in Scotland

:35:00.:35:06.

this Government will ensue if that Scotland's National Health Service

:35:06.:35:15.

is never for sale. As a measure of independence on health, education,

:35:15.:35:20.

law and order, we have made Scotland a better place. Think what

:35:20.:35:25.

we could do with Scottish control of the economy, of international

:35:25.:35:32.

representation, and of security. Apart from the issue of

:35:32.:35:36.

independence this was a very Labour speech - that was not much that

:35:36.:35:42.

traditional Labour voters would disagree with. Why did he focus on

:35:42.:35:52.
:35:52.:35:53.

such traditional Labour values? I wonder. This is the SNP's newest

:35:53.:35:57.

member. The party's popularity has never been greater but Mr Salmond

:35:57.:36:02.

will be to continue recruiting even more to his cause. Labour voters

:36:02.:36:08.

appear to be in his sights. Good morning, First Minister. You are

:36:08.:36:14.

getting very good reviews. Have you read them?

:36:14.:36:18.

Politicians only read reviews and they are good ones, so obviously

:36:18.:36:24.

the answer is yes. You said that the days of

:36:24.:36:28.

politicians in London telling Scotland what to do and think are

:36:28.:36:34.

over, but if we keep the pound, post-independence, actually will be

:36:34.:36:40.

a monetary policy of the Bank of England telling us what to do.

:36:40.:36:45.

In monetary policy, but not fiscal policy. I made a speech in the

:36:45.:36:49.

London School of Economics with I outlined six areas of fiscal policy,

:36:49.:36:54.

taxation policy, that will make a very substantial difference within

:36:54.:36:59.

the context of a Stirling zone. So my argument would be within the

:36:59.:37:09.
:37:09.:37:14.

context of that Swan -- sterling zone, which have a very powerful

:37:14.:37:20.

impact. For example, air passenger duty, that would provide a boost to

:37:21.:37:26.

tourism. That is an example of something we could do while still

:37:26.:37:32.

having control of key areas of fiscal economy. -- fiscal policy.

:37:32.:37:37.

But given what is going on in you that nobody would argue that you

:37:37.:37:41.

can disentangle monetary policy from fiscal policy. If the Bank of

:37:41.:37:45.

England was their lender of last resort it will not agree to a

:37:45.:37:51.

fiscal policy it thinks is irresponsible. Other economists say

:37:51.:37:54.

that because of keeping the pound there will be little room for

:37:54.:38:04.
:38:04.:38:05.

manoeuvre. Do you accept that? I do not. That's why I made a

:38:05.:38:08.

speech. But I think there is a fundamental

:38:08.:38:12.

difference incidentally between a stare lingers on in Scotland and

:38:12.:38:22.
:38:22.:38:28.

England. -- sterling zone. This is totally different to the Euro zone.

:38:28.:38:30.

Certainly any quarter Asian and the stability pact but you would still

:38:30.:38:40.
:38:40.:38:48.

be able to have to eat terminations. -- certainly you need co-operation.

:38:48.:38:52.

But in terms of the march and you have been talking about not

:38:52.:39:00.

exceeding 3% of GDP. -- margin. We know that George Osborne has a

:39:00.:39:06.

tight fiscal regime. You want to loosen the fiscal regime. So there

:39:06.:39:09.

is obviously a contradiction - when you say there is as packed I am

:39:09.:39:16.

trying to work out whose priorities would be most persuasive?

:39:16.:39:22.

I take the example of 3% of GDP and borrowing over the long term. That

:39:22.:39:28.

is an essential discipline any country needs at any time. But take

:39:28.:39:35.

last year. Figures recently published show a �2.6 billion

:39:35.:39:41.

surplus relative to the UK figures. That is �510 for every man, woman

:39:41.:39:49.

and child in Scotland. But if we bought the same as the UK we would

:39:49.:39:57.

be �510 per person better off. -- If we borrowed the same. You

:39:57.:40:02.

certainly could have made life in Scotland substantially better for

:40:02.:40:07.

its people by marrying Scotland's resources to the talent and ability

:40:07.:40:13.

of its people. So people ruse that fiscal policy does not make a

:40:13.:40:20.

difference belie the reality. -- people that say.

:40:20.:40:25.

But you agree there would need to be a stability pact and a pact on

:40:25.:40:31.

the borrowing? Within their monitory zone, yes.

:40:31.:40:36.

But as I have set out and substantial detail, the fiscal

:40:36.:40:40.

independence with in that position would allow you to boost to growth

:40:40.:40:44.

in the Scottish economy. That is real independence in the modern

:40:44.:40:50.

world. Control of resources, taxation, the ability to make you

:40:50.:40:55.

economy more competitive and society more fair.

:40:55.:40:59.

But only to the point that your lender of last resort agrees with

:40:59.:41:04.

the fiscal policy. Are you arguing that the Bank of England will

:41:04.:41:08.

bankroll a fiscal policy it thinks is irresponsible?

:41:08.:41:18.
:41:18.:41:18.

That is not what it does. If it is lender of last resort...

:41:18.:41:25.

That is determined by your Treasury. It is the same in England. Monetary

:41:25.:41:30.

policy, not fiscal policy. The Bank of England is independent from the

:41:30.:41:34.

Chancellor of the Exchequer and never mind any Scottish minister.

:41:34.:41:38.

So does to people say we would give up control of monetary policy

:41:38.:41:44.

conveniently forget that Gordon Brown already did so in 1997. We

:41:44.:41:48.

would be no different position relative to the Bank of England

:41:48.:41:53.

than the UK Chancellor is at the moment. There is a difference

:41:53.:41:56.

between the monetary policy framework and the fiscal policy -

:41:56.:42:01.

control taxation. All I am suggesting, First

:42:01.:42:08.

Minister... It is not just that.

:42:08.:42:12.

But there will have to be some sort of pact. You cannot just run a

:42:12.:42:16.

fiscal policy that is out of step with what the lender of last resort

:42:17.:42:23.

Pinks is OK to secure its credit ratings and his interest.

:42:23.:42:28.

But the Bank of England does not determine fiscal policy. You would

:42:28.:42:33.

have a fiscal stability pact because you do these things anyway.

:42:33.:42:36.

People cent over the long term of GDP is no more than any prudent

:42:36.:42:44.

country anywhere would have any way. -- 3%. I am saying that control of

:42:44.:42:48.

taxation and spending is absolutely critical to boosting the Scottish

:42:48.:42:53.

economy, increasing our competitive position, and building a fair

:42:53.:43:00.

society. Your comments then, control over

:43:00.:43:08.

our own finances would be by his �2.6 billion better off, �510 per

:43:08.:43:18.
:43:18.:43:24.

man, women, and child. -- the fiscal balance is �33.5 billion in

:43:24.:43:33.

the red. Those saving, known vesting, just slightly less debt.

:43:33.:43:37.

You are wrong about that. What matters is what our position would

:43:37.:43:41.

have been if we borrowed the same as the United Kingdom. The figures

:43:41.:43:47.

show that we're too �0.6 billion better off. In other words we could

:43:47.:43:57.
:43:57.:43:57.

have borrowed or invested that. -- �2.6 billion. It is the comparison

:43:57.:44:01.

between your relative standing with the United Kingdom. If we borrowed

:44:01.:44:05.

and spent at the same level we would have been that much better

:44:05.:44:13.

off. As you rightly say, �510 per man, woman, and child. That gives

:44:13.:44:20.

you the choice to Bordeaux, save more, or invest in the future. --

:44:20.:44:25.

Bordeaux. Scotland is indisputably in a better position than the

:44:25.:44:35.
:44:35.:44:37.

United Kingdom at the moment. -- borrow.

:44:37.:44:40.

When will we be in a position to save money from North Sea oil

:44:40.:44:46.

revenues? Norway started and or oil fund

:44:46.:44:53.

whilst it was running a fiscal deficit. All the sleet you do it

:44:53.:44:57.

when fiscal circumstances allow -- obviously. But during the last five

:44:58.:45:03.

years we would have been �8 billion better off if we had been running

:45:03.:45:13.
:45:13.:45:15.

our own finances. -- 8,000 billion. Comparing our position, we with the

:45:15.:45:18.

United Kingdom. I know it is inconvenient for our opponents but

:45:18.:45:28.
:45:28.:45:31.

these official figures have These figures show subsidy has been

:45:31.:45:40.

flowing from England -- Scotland to England. You set 25,000

:45:40.:45:47.

apprenticeships every year and each linked to a new job. That is the

:45:47.:45:57.
:45:57.:45:58.

important point, a Modern apprenticeship is up employed. The

:45:58.:46:03.

completion rate is extremely high. Give a have a job at the end of it?

:46:03.:46:09.

The majority goes into employment. This is a great strength of this

:46:09.:46:17.

system. The job retention rate is extremely high. We what percentage

:46:17.:46:27.
:46:27.:46:28.

get a permanent job? The completion rate as up into the 70 %. I can

:46:28.:46:35.

check the figures, but the key thing is when someone gets a trade,

:46:35.:46:41.

they are able to be employed. The challenge we have is that people

:46:41.:46:49.

have not the opportunity to get a trade. Some initiatives are driving

:46:49.:46:56.

at how we can help people in that category. There's a statutory

:46:56.:47:05.

guarantee of nursery care next year. Can you guarantee that for rural

:47:05.:47:14.

areas? We put it into statute next year. It will be a statutory

:47:14.:47:21.

guarantee so will apply all over Scotland. Every family will be

:47:21.:47:27.

entitled to 600 and day towers of nursery care as an allowance. It is

:47:27.:47:32.

a huge social advance, liberating many young parents into the

:47:32.:47:37.

workplace. Eating guaranteed whenever the Louth they will be

:47:37.:47:45.

able to access that? Yes. constitutional issues, we speculate

:47:45.:47:53.

on the scenario that after a referendum, people say yes. Do you

:47:53.:48:00.

stand MPs for all Westminster at the next election in 2015? We will

:48:00.:48:04.

stand MPs as long as Scotland is government by the Westminster

:48:04.:48:10.

Parliament. If Scotland becomes independent, there would be no

:48:10.:48:20.
:48:20.:48:20.

Scottish MPs and the House of Commons. How long can that take?

:48:20.:48:27.

The target date is the next Scottish parliamentary elections in

:48:27.:48:35.

four years time. The think the legislative framework can be worked

:48:35.:48:45.
:48:45.:48:47.

out in four years time? Yes, I do. This law Mac dissolution take

:48:47.:48:57.
:48:57.:49:01.

approximately that timescale. look at the 2016 Holyrood election,

:49:01.:49:07.

if you have not come back to the people with another way of testing

:49:07.:49:17.
:49:17.:49:19.

opinion to say this is the deal, when you get to 2016, what if the

:49:19.:49:24.

auteurs used that as a red -- as a referendum, what have they don't

:49:24.:49:31.

like it and there is not a majority SNP government? And the

:49:31.:49:35.

circumstances of the people they believe in independence getting a

:49:35.:49:41.

referendum, it is reasonable that independence supporters would be in

:49:41.:49:50.

a strong position. Last time we were in this position, if I

:49:50.:49:58.

remember correctly, you said, you are behind in the polls, two months

:49:58.:50:05.

later, we had the support of the Scottish people. Her track record

:50:05.:50:14.

is impressive. I think I may have been misquoted. You must have stood

:50:14.:50:19.

alone in the Scottish press. anally, at the comments of Tom

:50:19.:50:26.

Watson, he says your relationship with Rupert Murdoch could be

:50:26.:50:33.

damaging. Tom Watson is the best chairman of the Labour Party. They

:50:33.:50:43.
:50:43.:50:43.

are hypocritical about this matter. Today's English The Sun On Sunday,

:50:43.:50:48.

there was a court of... But how would you describe your

:50:48.:50:58.

relationship? There is a huge professional -- commercial fit

:50:58.:51:03.

print in Scotland. I have not changed my mind on these matters. I

:51:04.:51:13.
:51:14.:51:18.

have supported the inquiries. I have never understood why these

:51:18.:51:28.
:51:28.:51:28.

matters have never been a investigated. You met Rupert

:51:28.:51:35.

Murdoch in Edinburgh in February. The day before that, Leveson

:51:35.:51:40.

inquiry discovered shocking revelations. One woman said the

:51:40.:51:45.

paper had tried to police -- intimidate police officers. The

:51:45.:51:53.

next day, you met Rupert Murdoch. Why shouldn't that meeting have

:51:53.:51:59.

been taking by someone on your team? I supported the police

:51:59.:52:05.

inquiries. I supported the Leveson inquiry I have done that north and

:52:05.:52:11.

south of the border. As for the meeting, I released publicly the

:52:11.:52:20.

meeting had taken place. It was all above board. I did it from the

:52:20.:52:25.

consistent position that I put forward. I recognise that companies

:52:25.:52:32.

have major footprints in Scotland. News International have said they

:52:32.:52:39.

will change their ways, but it was OK for them to meet News

:52:39.:52:46.

International while we're on their malpractice. The Labour Party's

:52:46.:52:53.

attitude to this has been questionable. The MP who led the

:52:53.:52:59.

charge on the phone hacking scandal has said this relationship is

:52:59.:53:04.

potentially damaging for Scotland. The media interests are coming

:53:05.:53:13.

under scrutiny. His BSkyB a fit and proper owner of a broadcasting

:53:14.:53:20.

licence? The lesson of the hacking scandal

:53:20.:53:30.
:53:30.:53:30.

is that politicians just got too close. There has to be a distance.

:53:30.:53:36.

Alex Salmond seems to be the only Western leader who wants to get

:53:36.:53:44.

close to Rupert Murdoch. I think it is probably a mistake for Scotland.

:53:45.:53:50.

He is to a powerful media more goal. He exerts too powerful an influence

:53:50.:53:56.

or institutions. When real look at Leveson inquiry,

:53:56.:54:01.

is spreading north of the border? It is likely we must all the

:54:01.:54:11.
:54:11.:54:11.

evidence. How do you think this applies in

:54:11.:54:19.

Scotland? I do not want to pre-empt Leveson. He is digging deeply into

:54:19.:54:29.
:54:29.:54:30.

tabloid journalism. If he comes up with chords of conduct, it is

:54:30.:54:37.

something that should be considered by the industry in Scotland. There

:54:37.:54:43.

could be a legislative framework? few thinks there are no protections

:54:43.:54:52.

and law, we have to consider that. It is too early to pre-empt what he

:54:52.:55:02.
:55:02.:55:07.

does. With the Press Complaints Commission saying a robust

:55:07.:55:15.

independent regulator being set up. I think the PCC is the most damaged

:55:15.:55:25.

brand and the United Kingdom. I feel it has not got a future. I

:55:25.:55:31.

think it is presumptuous and insulting to Lord Leveson. What you

:55:31.:55:39.

think it says about their attitude to the public? The general approach

:55:39.:55:48.

of the PCC historically is one of dumb insolence. We're seeing

:55:48.:55:58.

editors coming up with discussions about... The idea that the PCC will

:55:58.:56:03.

be a vehicle that delivers that reform after so many failures as a

:56:03.:56:09.

mistake. They have lost trust. couldn't be any public confidence

:56:09.:56:19.

in any form? Again, it is too early to tell. A model of self regulation

:56:19.:56:29.
:56:29.:56:41.

that has some powers based on statute might work. It is not too

:56:41.:56:45.

late to look at self regulatory models but we should not pre-empt

:56:45.:56:53.

Leveson. It can be good to partner with the industry. If they do not

:56:53.:56:59.

play ball, that will be down to politicians. Do we have that

:56:59.:57:06.

courage? It is too early to tell. There is intent after the Millie

:57:06.:57:13.

Dolan episode. At some point, David Cameron will have to act on Leveson.

:57:13.:57:21.

I hope that the unity displayed remains. There is a question mark.

:57:21.:57:25.

Is there a difficult balance between regulating and restricting

:57:25.:57:35.
:57:35.:57:36.

press activity? Yes. No one wants politicians and government to and

:57:36.:57:42.

newspapers. Do we not want newspapers proprietors all were

:57:42.:57:51.

influencing government? You need a propriety to the relationship.

:57:51.:57:56.

Minimum pressing for roll-call is getting closer. Holyrood will

:57:56.:58:05.

debate the Government's plans. Targeting low-cost, high-strength

:58:05.:58:12.

rent remains divisive. -- a drink wine tasting night in an Edinburgh

:58:13.:58:19.

off-licence. This sells for just under �5. It me

:58:19.:58:25.

or �5 with minimum pricing. The order cents it will not affect the

:58:25.:58:33.

business. Minimum pricing is a good idea. It will prevent alcohol being

:58:33.:58:41.

used as a weapon by some retailers to get customers into them. It will

:58:41.:58:48.

be good for the health of the nation and independent retailers.

:58:48.:58:52.

It will probably be good for the public. Minimum pricing was not to

:58:52.:59:01.

everyone's taste. It might work as a disincentive but, as a whole, it

:59:01.:59:09.

will hurt people who drink responsibly. I have heard it have

:59:09.:59:18.

under-aged drinking before. It is worth a shot. In 2010, minimum

:59:18.:59:24.

pricing measures were voted out of the last alcohol bill. The SNP did

:59:24.:59:29.

not have a majority them. Now read the bought their new law will be in

:59:29.:59:38.

place by the summer. Their health committee has been scrutinised. New

:59:38.:59:43.

research suggests a minimum price of 45 pence per unit would reduce

:59:43.:59:52.

consumption by 4.3 % rather than 4.7 % previously predicted. The SNP

:59:52.:59:59.

backed 45p. This time, they will suggest a specific minimum price

:59:59.:00:04.

later in the process. Nicola Sturgeon agreed to a five-year at

:00:04.:00:14.
:00:14.:00:17.

sunset clause it would result in David Cameron is considering

:00:17.:00:25.

similar measures south of the border. But it is still scepticism.

:00:25.:00:28.

The Scottish grocers Association represents convenience score goals

:00:28.:00:36.

like this one. -- convenience stores.

:00:36.:00:41.

This measure will not be helpful in terms of targeting problem drinkers.

:00:41.:00:45.

It is indiscriminate and disproportionate. It will affect

:00:45.:00:49.

our customers and there were businesses.

:00:49.:00:55.

Customers are divided. To be more expensive the alcohol

:00:55.:01:00.

the less problems our young people will have in the future.

:01:00.:01:04.

It is a good idea. It will put off those who drank most nights of the

:01:04.:01:10.

week. All evidence suggests that it will

:01:10.:01:19.

hit jobs harder than it will hit teenagers drinking in the street.

:01:19.:01:24.

So it remains a contentious issue. But drinkers will soon get used to

:01:24.:01:33.

it. -- soon have to get used to it. I am joined by representatives of

:01:33.:01:38.

the SNP, Labour, and the Conservatives. Why have the

:01:38.:01:43.

Conservatives changed their mind? We remain sceptical but we have

:01:43.:01:47.

changed her mind because we have been negotiating with the Scottish

:01:47.:01:51.

Government. We have succeeded in bringing in a sunset clause so if

:01:52.:01:55.

it proved to be ineffective the measure will be dropped in five

:01:55.:02:00.

years. We have gained concessions that there will be voluntary

:02:00.:02:06.

notifications of the European Union to see if this as a legal measure.

:02:06.:02:14.

And we're also asked for a review comparing and a rare -- comparing a

:02:14.:02:20.

region like the North of England so we can see a like for like. And

:02:20.:02:24.

lastly we want more work done on the culture and relationship of

:02:24.:02:29.

Scots with alcohol. We drink 20% more than in England but the price

:02:29.:02:34.

is the same. So by gaining these concessions we have decided to

:02:34.:02:38.

support the Bill. It was going through anyway so we think we have

:02:38.:02:45.

helped improve it. You could have second-guessed most

:02:45.:02:50.

of these amendments anyway. The substantive arguments have not

:02:50.:02:54.

changed. Do you regret delay in what could have been a significant

:02:55.:03:01.

health improving policy? North. We remain sceptical and have

:03:01.:03:07.

serious concerns about whether this will work. -- no. Alcohol

:03:07.:03:13.

consumption is falling but the problems relating to it continue to

:03:13.:03:18.

rise. Internet sales could lead Scotland and go elsewhere and we

:03:18.:03:21.

also think that more people will buy across the border in England

:03:21.:03:26.

but we have negotiated with Nicola Sturgeon for three months and feel

:03:26.:03:30.

that the sunset clause which the minority government had and which

:03:30.:03:35.

was taken out when the became a majority, we have helped to bring

:03:35.:03:42.

that back in. We think we're moving forward and a sensible manner.

:03:42.:03:50.

Labour are now isolated on this quote. You have turned your back on

:03:50.:03:57.

detailed medical evidence you have...

:03:57.:04:04.

Sorry! There is no evidence. It says that harmful rather than

:04:05.:04:11.

moderate drinkers can be tackled effectively with the changes. Are

:04:11.:04:16.

you suggesting that it was not medical opinion which said, let's

:04:16.:04:21.

try this, even with a sunset clause? Your not CDs are suggesting

:04:21.:04:27.

that there was a swathe of medical opinion that supported this? -- you

:04:27.:04:31.

are not seriously suggesting. I have spent a quarter of my life

:04:32.:04:35.

working with alcoholics and would not have suggested voting against

:04:35.:04:39.

this if I believed it would work. It will not tackle the young and

:04:39.:04:45.

binge drinkers who are the critical problem we have. This is the third

:04:45.:04:50.

time in its history that Scotland has faced Algol problems and it is

:04:50.:05:00.
:05:00.:05:03.

always a cultural issue. -- alcohol. In Sheffield they aimed to drink

:05:03.:05:10.

just over half a pint less per 100 pts. That will not tackle this

:05:10.:05:15.

problem. Would it not therefore be sensible

:05:15.:05:19.

then to try and figure out at what level the minimum pricing works,

:05:19.:05:23.

rather than at write it off altogether?

:05:23.:05:31.

But the windfall to the retailers goes up. At 45p it is �100 million.

:05:31.:05:33.

The Institute for Fiscal Studies has said that the market response

:05:33.:05:38.

will be critical - if the price is reduced above the minimum price

:05:38.:05:42.

level so that the purchase a basket of each individual is roughly even

:05:42.:05:48.

doubt, the policy will be nullified. And this will only affect the

:05:48.:05:53.

poorest 30% of the community. It will not affect the middle class,

:05:53.:05:56.

who are drinking too much, and there are more hazardous drinkers

:05:56.:06:00.

in the middle group of the population. They will not be

:06:00.:06:05.

affected. Let's talk about that accusation

:06:05.:06:12.

that you are targeting the pool. It is untrue. The doctor is in a

:06:12.:06:18.

minority. You looking at more income groups, 80% either do not

:06:18.:06:24.

drink at all or drink too moderate levels and are unaffected by price

:06:24.:06:30.

rises. Only 20% will be affected. At the price difference between

:06:30.:06:35.

them and higher income groups is 0.7 %. There is even evidence to

:06:36.:06:40.

show that supermarkets inflate the price of their food to cross

:06:40.:06:45.

subsidise the alcohol in their stores. It will benefit those in

:06:45.:06:50.

low income groups and the most harmful drinkers. All the evidence

:06:50.:06:55.

shows that. It acknowledges that the welfare benefits of minimum

:06:55.:07:02.

pricing will be substantial. Or as a point of principle you have

:07:02.:07:06.

your reservations. But there is a body of evidence that says it could

:07:06.:07:11.

work. Why would you not, given their is a sunset clause, why would

:07:11.:07:18.

you not say, give it and go, see what happens? Other eyes it looks

:07:18.:07:26.

like opposition for the sake of opposition. -- otherwise.

:07:26.:07:31.

They SNP have put out that lie from the outset. I have put forward

:07:31.:07:41.
:07:41.:07:42.

cogent arguments. Can I finish? If you drink 14 or 15 units per week,

:07:42.:07:48.

well within deceive deadlines, this as a tax of �120 per year on your

:07:48.:07:56.

drinking. Why should a poor person be punished this way?

:07:56.:08:04.

It is nonsense. You must be reading reports that do not exist. Quite

:08:04.:08:07.

frankly Richard is desperately searching for evidence that does

:08:07.:08:14.

not exist. What do you think David Cameron

:08:14.:08:21.

will do on this? The truth as I do not know Phil's

:08:21.:08:24.

got surprisingly enough we decide here in Scotland what we're going

:08:24.:08:30.

to do. Jackson has been negotiating with Nicola Sturgeon since January.

:08:30.:08:35.

He came to our group at a fortnight ago. We had a robust discussion and

:08:35.:08:41.

we all came to the agreement, 15 of us, that we would support minimum

:08:41.:08:49.

pricing on the basis of the concessions we have one.

:08:49.:08:57.

But you advice would be it is a good thing to do? To have this in

:08:57.:09:02.

the south rather than go, I speak - - as has been suggested, tackling

:09:02.:09:09.

it through the tax system? I am left Richard Simpson on this

:09:09.:09:14.

one. We would prefer that it was done through duties. But David

:09:14.:09:19.

Cameron does not tell us what to do nor do we tell him. If it goes

:09:19.:09:22.

through duties the money goes to the taxpayer and to fund public

:09:22.:09:29.

services. Richard makes a very good point. This will raise the profits

:09:30.:09:34.

for retailers and he is correct also that there was no evidence in

:09:34.:09:39.

Sheffield as regards Genscher drinking and middle income earners.

:09:39.:09:49.

-- binge drinking. His duty a blunt instrument?

:09:49.:09:55.

It is not necessarily the right way to do it. Also, so poor market

:09:55.:09:59.

profits, I note that the Conservatives are opposing the

:09:59.:10:02.

public health levy to tax supermarkets and Labour won against

:10:02.:10:08.

the Tesco tax. Nobody has spoken against the 40 people whose lives

:10:08.:10:13.

may be spared in the First Year that minimum pricing is brought an

:10:13.:10:18.

end. Let's talk about the public health benefits.

:10:18.:10:22.

I am sorry we're out of time. I just want Richard to have a final

:10:22.:10:29.

work. Labour were raising taxes and the

:10:30.:10:35.

conservative coalition are continually get. It means you do

:10:35.:10:38.

not have over �100 million going to the retailers which will be spent

:10:38.:10:47.

on more advertising and reducing the price of higher priced drinks.

:10:47.:10:52.

Research for a UNICEF shows that children in the UK feel trapped in

:10:52.:10:55.

a materialistic culture and do not spend enough time with their

:10:55.:11:01.

families. We will be joined shortly by the author of the report. First,

:11:01.:11:07.

we spoke to two families to find out what impact modern life has on

:11:07.:11:16.

them. My tea realism has come to dominate family life in Scotland. -

:11:16.:11:26.
:11:26.:11:27.

- materialism. My son wants football boots priced

:11:27.:11:32.

at �124. This was advertised just before

:11:32.:11:40.

Christmas. C went on about it for weeks on end, begging for them.

:11:40.:11:45.

Jennifer is a single parent who works full-time as a student nurse.

:11:45.:11:53.

She had to save all week to buy her son a smart phone.

:11:53.:11:57.

All his friends have won so why felt pressure so that he could fit

:11:57.:12:02.

again. I see lots of expensive things and

:12:02.:12:07.

I want them. If you want to get in with a good group of friends then

:12:07.:12:12.

you need expensive stuff. When I didn't have an iPhone people would

:12:12.:12:19.

call me poor and say that I couldn't afford one.

:12:19.:12:22.

He a UNICEF report says that parents in the UK feel tremendous

:12:22.:12:27.

pressure from society to buy goods for their children. They do not

:12:27.:12:35.

call it retail therapy for nothing. Shopping makes me feel good. It is

:12:35.:12:43.

a reward for a hard day at work. It makes me feel good about myself.

:12:43.:12:48.

It is a pretty world and I like to fit and.

:12:48.:12:58.
:12:58.:12:58.

But could this consumerism affect It attracts people from really

:12:58.:13:03.

paying attention to the things that would be better from their lives. -

:13:03.:13:10.

- detractors. The research shows that parents in

:13:10.:13:15.

the United Kingdom lose out on time together as if -- as a family due

:13:15.:13:21.

to long working arose. They try to make up for this by buying children

:13:21.:13:31.
:13:31.:13:35.

Effort is a choice between an iPhone and a holiday next to the

:13:35.:13:45.
:13:45.:13:48.

Could children face pressure on all fronts. There is a strong image is

:13:48.:13:52.

sending a message that this is what should be done. How people should

:13:52.:13:57.

be. Where value lies. Getting away from that and getting back to focus

:13:58.:14:04.

on relationships, friends and families, that balance needs to be

:14:04.:14:10.

struck. It is not right at the moment.

:14:10.:14:13.

With UNICEF reporting that inequality is greater in the UK

:14:13.:14:17.

than in other countries should we be doing more to guarantee the

:14:17.:14:24.

welfare of her children? The author of the report is here. Thank you

:14:24.:14:31.

for coming and. If we look at when this Stark's, we heard from B race

:14:32.:14:35.

people in the past that before your children are born you're being told

:14:35.:14:44.

to spend a small fortune. Yes, it start before children are born.

:14:44.:14:51.

Ridiculous things like baby perfume. They smell nice enough on their own.

:14:51.:14:57.

But BA is huge pressure on parents to have all the latest things. --

:14:57.:15:04.

one father there we spoke to had produced an entire football

:15:04.:15:08.

strapped to pin up everywhere around the nursery. It comes from

:15:08.:15:18.
:15:18.:15:26.

A lot is not mediated by parents. Presumably, we have always wanted

:15:26.:15:32.

things. What has changed? There is a lot more stuff out there. When we

:15:32.:15:40.

did the work for Unicef, we filmed 24 families, we were falling over

:15:40.:15:50.
:15:50.:15:50.

the stuff. There is so much to buy. It is advertised. Our children

:15:50.:15:57.

asking for it Ora parents using it of we were seeing sorry I am not

:15:57.:16:07.
:16:07.:16:08.

spending time with you? When we asked my children, they said time

:16:08.:16:18.
:16:18.:16:18.

with my family and friends. That is what children want. When the our

:16:18.:16:27.

school, like that child said there, so once or has a nightspot. Parents

:16:27.:16:31.

start to feel they are bad parents if they do not give children what

:16:31.:16:38.

they want. The feel disenfranchised. They feel they are the only ones.

:16:38.:16:45.

If parents got together, they would realise other parents were not

:16:45.:16:52.

going to buy a these things. Solidarity might help. Do you think

:16:52.:17:01.

there are sections of society who find it easier to save all? Those

:17:01.:17:06.

in hiring comes often have more time. We found families who were

:17:06.:17:15.

struggling, having to work lots of jobs, they did not have time to

:17:15.:17:24.

explain to their children. If you can survive on one income, you have

:17:24.:17:33.

a mother and father, you can set and talk -- top two children.

:17:33.:17:43.
:17:43.:17:46.

came out that some parents EU's but a dance. It raises the child's

:17:46.:17:49.

expectation and plazas the lines between authority figures and the

:17:49.:17:59.
:17:59.:18:01.

child. They embody dad is interesting. Mothers and daughters

:18:01.:18:08.

go to pamper parties. Some parents use their children as rents. The

:18:08.:18:17.

authority has gone. We spot to mothers in Spain. They just say no

:18:17.:18:23.

to their children. The children appreciated parents seeing off. One

:18:23.:18:31.

little boy said he had saved for Russ Star Wars set. He said if you

:18:31.:18:41.
:18:41.:18:43.

do not save up, there is no Cherish mint. As bank loans become more

:18:43.:18:53.
:18:53.:18:53.

difficult to obtain, one bank which started in Bangladesh is loaning to

:18:53.:19:00.

people in Scotland. The idea has been around for 30 years. Could it

:19:00.:19:08.

work here? It began in Bangladesh, a country

:19:08.:19:14.

where 63 million people live below the poverty line. It was here the

:19:14.:19:24.
:19:24.:19:58.

idea of micro finance began. This The idea is for the bank to offer a

:19:58.:20:04.

small loans to people trying to set up businesses. The bank says it

:20:04.:20:09.

promotes self-reliance. The poorest will create their own employment.

:20:09.:20:16.

It is now coming to Scotland. This man has a Nobel Prize for his

:20:16.:20:24.

banking model. He believes it can work here. We gave people to create

:20:24.:20:34.
:20:34.:20:35.

their own jobs. They'd do the things they know or how to do.

:20:35.:20:45.
:20:45.:20:46.

Sowing, making cakes, walking dogs. Here at St Paul's Church, local

:20:46.:20:52.

women have started a lunch club. We see a small loan would help them do

:20:52.:21:01.

it more quickly. We are doing better sewing and ironing. We're

:21:01.:21:08.

hoping to get that up and running and get some machines in. Perhaps

:21:08.:21:14.

we can get some washing machines and do some laundry. Some money

:21:14.:21:21.

would help that. We are going to the basement. It is hoped this

:21:21.:21:26.

launderette could employee some staff. This model for stamping out

:21:26.:21:32.

poverty is not without its critics. Some people say it does not work.

:21:32.:21:40.

We're set up by people who want to escape poverty. The idea is they

:21:40.:21:47.

will automatically have clients. Unfortunately, that is not the case.

:21:47.:21:54.

Poor people do not have money so will not be able to purchase items

:21:54.:22:01.

and services. There is concerned people taking out loans would no

:22:01.:22:07.

longer apply for benefits. The test will come over the next few months

:22:07.:22:17.
:22:17.:22:18.

as people take out loans. It can be years before we know or if it works.

:22:18.:22:21.

Good afternoon. The finance Secretary will use his speech at

:22:22.:22:26.

the conference and the next few minutes to say that Scots will be

:22:26.:22:32.

better off living in independence. John Swinney will cite the figures

:22:32.:22:39.

and will see they can afford independence. We have set out the

:22:39.:22:46.

course that Scots pay more into the United Kingdom than be get tight.

:22:46.:22:52.

It is �510 per person. That is a platform from which we wanted

:22:52.:22:59.

Scotland to become independent. Local authority is warning that any

:22:59.:23:05.

plan to move you clear spill from - - fuel from Dounreay should be done

:23:05.:23:15.
:23:15.:23:16.

by real. Highland councils say taking nuclear material by rail has

:23:16.:23:22.

a poor safety record. Britannia's royal barge is

:23:22.:23:29.

undergoing sea trials. The bought based that portion terminal a neck

:23:29.:23:33.

and baroque was used to transport the Royal Family from the yacht

:23:33.:23:39.

until it was decommissioned in 1987. It will feature and the Diamond

:23:39.:23:49.
:23:49.:23:56.

High pressure firmly in control. Further east, we should see more

:23:56.:24:06.
:24:06.:24:06.

brightness. It will be cooler further west. Tomorrow, not much

:24:06.:24:14.

changed. Some brightness again further east. This week, mainly dry

:24:14.:24:24.
:24:24.:24:26.

and settled. Let us take a look back at the

:24:26.:24:36.
:24:36.:24:37.

Weeting 60 seconds. The UK's first green investment

:24:37.:24:41.

bank would have headquarters in Edinburgh.

:24:41.:24:48.

Tributes to Paul McBride found dead in Pakistan.

:24:48.:24:54.

In a letter to the Prime Minister, Vince Cable mentioned breaking up

:24:54.:25:04.
:25:04.:25:07.

the Royal Bank of Scotland. A in terms of the new

:25:07.:25:11.

qualifications, there is work to be done before schools can be

:25:11.:25:19.

reassured. Eric Joyce has been fined �3,000 and banned from pubs

:25:19.:25:26.

after admitting assaulting politicians. I have been duly

:25:26.:25:36.
:25:36.:25:37.

punished. I was lucky to avoid prison.

:25:37.:25:42.

The top of the steamy, dominated by the party's spring conference

:25:42.:25:52.
:25:52.:26:04.

season. Joining me, Mandy roads. Former

:26:04.:26:11.

special adviser to John Swinney. Good reviews for Alex Salmond's

:26:11.:26:19.

speech. Very good reviews. He is often associated with economic

:26:19.:26:29.

issues. He devotes his speech to social issues. The interesting

:26:29.:26:36.

thing from yesterday's conference was talk of the Social Union. That

:26:36.:26:45.

is significant. The SNP will be trying to say to people, you can

:26:45.:26:52.

keep the bits you like. You can keeps airline. So we can get rid of

:26:52.:26:58.

the things we don't like. It is that the road they are heading

:26:58.:27:06.

down? It is odd for me that the conference is not discussing, is

:27:06.:27:14.

not asking the membership bought Social Union means. There is a

:27:14.:27:22.

danger that people ask what is different. Should there be a second

:27:22.:27:30.

question? That question is absent. Devolved areas, the highlighted

:27:30.:27:40.
:27:40.:27:44.

that they were working. Is that not the danger? That is a danger. Some

:27:44.:27:48.

say the SNP could be so successful and devolution that people will not

:27:49.:27:58.

go on to independence. At the moment, there are huge spending

:27:58.:28:06.

cuts down the line. Next year, the Lindsay there are record

:28:06.:28:16.
:28:16.:28:20.

investments in North Sea oil. Speed can do so much in devolution.

:28:20.:28:25.

Meakin said -- they can save you can improve on the things you like.

:28:25.:28:32.

Far be it from me to suggest they would fall late -- fault Holyrood

:28:32.:28:42.
:28:42.:28:43.

magazine. A few can short it has not just been under devolution,

:28:43.:28:50.

there is an argument for discussing what we do differently. If that is

:28:50.:28:57.

better, there is an argument other things can be done better.

:28:57.:29:05.

sounds like a soft Labour vote. Mean or lots of people left Labour

:29:05.:29:15.
:29:15.:29:18.

to vote for the SNP. Labour are not for independence. It is about

:29:18.:29:24.

getting that pitch right. A lot of the speech yesterday it was

:29:24.:29:34.
:29:34.:29:34.

important for that. How much autonomy you can run on fiscal

:29:35.:29:41.

policy, this will have to be explored in more detail. The

:29:41.:29:51.
:29:51.:29:51.

Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser with the latest political news, interviews and debate, including work and pensions secretary Iain Duncan Smith and chief secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander.


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