Browse content similar to 15/04/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good afternoon. This is the Sunday politics. The Budget that keeps on | :00:41. | :00:47. | |
giving but not in a good way. After granny tax, the charity tax engulfs | :00:47. | :00:52. | |
the Government. How much damage is being done to the Tories' chances | :00:52. | :01:00. | |
in next month's local elections? Grant Shapps joins us for the | :01:00. | :01:06. | |
Sunday interview. We go to Sweden where when it comes | :01:06. | :01:12. | |
to tax, the let it all hang out. Should we follow suit and make tax | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
returns public? The argument for a full financial disclosure gathers | :01:16. | :01:23. | |
pace. And on Sunday Politics Scotland, | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
the finance secretary says charities are going to be hit hard | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
over tax relief on donations. And are bus companies taking us for a | :01:29. | :01:30. | |
ride? Profitable companies, government | :01:30. | :01:40. | |
:01:40. | :01:40. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1503 seconds | :01:40. | :26:44. | |
subsidies - set against cuts in If you think everybody's tax | :26:44. | :26:47. | |
returns should be public, should it also be public how much everyone | :26:47. | :26:54. | |
receives and benefits? I think it probably should be. There is a | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
significant argument for that as well. That would be more difficult | :26:58. | :27:06. | |
to enforce. You would have to get round a large number of different | :27:06. | :27:14. | |
agencies in order to get them published. It is very un-English. | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
We are very private about her money in this country. You mean it is not | :27:19. | :27:27. | |
an Scottish a run Welsh? I think it is something we regard as being a | :27:27. | :27:33. | |
very private matter and a culture is completely antithetical. This | :27:33. | :27:39. | |
leads a fairly private as well but, despite all their suggestions of | :27:39. | :27:46. | |
public nudity there. I think that they are not as envious as we | :27:46. | :27:53. | |
imagine we are. Our real problem is not about privacy but of those | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
who'd do it well being worried about becoming the envious targets | :27:57. | :28:03. | |
of our neighbours. There was a time not that long ago, less than 15 | :28:03. | :28:07. | |
years ago, when a lot of politicians said where we get the | :28:07. | :28:16. | |
money from as a political party should be up private matter. No one | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
believes in that argument now and are you not fighting the tide here, | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
that in the future we should see their tax returns of a | :28:23. | :28:28. | |
politician's? It may well be that the argument I am making it is | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
going to lose because the MoD is demanding more and more. This is | :28:33. | :28:39. | |
mob rule, demanding to know every detail about the leaders. We have | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
got a dearth of talent in British politics in terms of their | :28:43. | :28:48. | |
experience of life. I would like to see better people and politics and | :28:48. | :28:54. | |
the less intrusion we have... say it is part of being a citizen | :28:54. | :29:04. | |
:29:04. | :29:05. | ||
of this country. If I maintain that I am resident and domiciled in | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
Britain and some as a tax return every year, why is that not enough? | :29:09. | :29:14. | |
Let's take the case that this has emerged from. Ken Livingstone had a | :29:14. | :29:19. | |
blast it people who he says are not paying as much tax as they should. | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
It is then discovered that he himself is doing it. People's | :29:24. | :29:29. | |
reaction to this is not daft about hypocrisy but about whether or not | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
you pay your dues and a way that I understand you are fulfilling your | :29:33. | :29:38. | |
duties as a citizen. It is applicable to everybody. 58% of | :29:38. | :29:45. | |
people in a recent poll said that tax returns should be made public. | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
Is it true these rumours we're reading that some Conservative MPs | :29:49. | :29:56. | |
are in discussion with UKIP? Over the last year the chief whip of the | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
House of Lords has joined UKIP and if the party continues to grow and | :30:00. | :30:05. | |
looks to be becoming a good bet, more will join. Are you having | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
discussions? In politics, you have discussions with people all the | :30:09. | :30:15. | |
time. I think that's I yes. Can you give us the names of the Tory MPs? | :30:15. | :30:25. | |
:30:25. | :30:25. | ||
Not yet. It is approaching 12:30pm. Good afternoon and welcome to | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme. We are on the | :30:28. | :30:31. | |
buses as a funding row cuts services, increases fares and puts | :30:31. | :30:36. | |
concessionary travel in the spotlight. Unless Westminster does | :30:36. | :30:38. | |
a handbrake turn on capping charity donations how will Scottish | :30:39. | :30:45. | |
projects be affected? Is there a shift in the SNP stance - no to | :30:45. | :30:50. | |
Nuclear but is it still a no to NATO? On the super-sensitive | :30:50. | :30:53. | |
territory of same sex marriage, we are just weeks away from a Scottish | :30:53. | :31:03. | |
:31:03. | :31:04. | ||
Our bus services seem to be heading down a difficult road - cuts in | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
routes, hikes in fares and threats of job losses. The bus companies | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
insist subsidy cuts are driving them into a corner but the | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
government isn't buying that. So if you're getting on board, what can | :31:13. | :31:23. | |
you expect as a passenger? Kevin Keane reports. | :31:23. | :31:28. | |
Travelling by bus in Scotland has never been more expensive. Here in | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
Aberdeen, both the major bus companies have recently seen the | :31:31. | :31:37. | |
affairs arise. The biggest operator saw them increase in January by up | :31:38. | :31:44. | |
to 13 1/2 per cent. The other big operators here, Stagecoach, | :31:44. | :31:52. | |
increase fares by a 7.7 per cent. Fares are rising across Scotland. | :31:52. | :32:00. | |
Stagecoach shares in Aberdeen have increased by nearly 10%. If you're | :32:00. | :32:07. | |
travelling in Glasgow, and you will have seen Europe price rise by 27%. | :32:07. | :32:12. | |
Operators say they are being hit hard. Private companies need profit | :32:12. | :32:19. | |
and if overheads rise, fares rise. People are being hit by a Perfect | :32:19. | :32:24. | |
Storm at the moment. There seemed a drop in passenger numbers and a | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
rise in fuel prices and the companies are responding to that by | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
trying to keep their profitability levels by increasing fares and | :32:31. | :32:37. | |
often cutting routes. One of the biggest hits has been in the amount | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
they are paid to operate services. The government's total subsidy to | :32:41. | :32:45. | |
bus companies last year was more than a quarter of a billion pounds. | :32:45. | :32:51. | |
A large chunk of that was through concessionary travel. 66.5 million | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
came through the bus service operators grand, and that has been | :32:54. | :33:04. | |
:33:04. | :33:06. | ||
cut by 17%. -- grant. It is ultimately the passengers who pay | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
and their feeling the effects and Aberdeen. It is expensive for me | :33:10. | :33:20. | |
:33:20. | :33:22. | ||
every day. It used to be �45 for me and now it is �50. I AM a pensioner | :33:22. | :33:31. | |
and we don't pay. I think it is terrible for families. Cracking the | :33:31. | :33:34. | |
public transport map has proven difficult for success of Gullit. | :33:34. | :33:38. | |
Two of the biggest operators each make profits of �250 million for a | :33:38. | :33:47. | |
bus services. A cut in government subsidy is unlikely to put them in | :33:47. | :33:53. | |
the red. There is then a more radical approach. Whatever party is | :33:53. | :33:59. | |
the principal opposition calls for regulation. The party and | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
government says they want. That will not change until passengers a | :34:02. | :34:07. | |
more powerful and speaking with a stronger voice. Motorists are well | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
represented in the political system and bus passengers are largely | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
ignored. With me in the studio are three | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
MSPs - we have Alex Neil the Minister for Capital Investment & | :34:17. | :34:19. | |
Infrastructure, Leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats Willie | :34:19. | :34:24. | |
Rennie, and for Labour, their transport spokesman, Richard Baker. | :34:24. | :34:30. | |
Thank you all for coming in. Alex Neil, if we start with the it cut | :34:30. | :34:36. | |
in subsidy to bus operators, why are you doing that? Over the last | :34:36. | :34:42. | |
two years, we have seen a 43% increase in fuel costs and we are | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
reforming the whole system to encourage bus operators to be more | :34:45. | :34:50. | |
fuel-efficient. We're trying to make the system fairer. Many rural | :34:50. | :34:55. | |
communities were not getting a fair chunk of the subsidy before so we | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
have rearranged and reformed the subsidy and such a way that it | :34:58. | :35:02. | |
tells rural communities. If you look at the total picture including | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
concessionary fares, we have tried to make it fairer by extending | :35:06. | :35:11. | |
concessionary fares to disabled veterans and their dial-up bus | :35:11. | :35:18. | |
service. The bus operators are arguing that you are now basing | :35:18. | :35:23. | |
your subsidy not on fuel costs but a mileage at which is a | :35:23. | :35:28. | |
disadvantage to them, and they are getting 20% less. Given that you | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
have said you have done all of this to improve the service, can you | :35:31. | :35:36. | |
really justify these cuts? They're not getting 20% less because | :35:36. | :35:43. | |
looking at the totality of what we are spending, we announced a �6 | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
million Green Bus Fund. We have announced a transition from the | :35:47. | :35:53. | |
subsidy that wars and the subsidy as reformed. Why are they are | :35:53. | :35:57. | |
laying off people and say they cannot maintain the services? | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
is only one group that has a significant redundancy level and | :36:01. | :36:09. | |
that is the First Bus Group. For a start, First has made it clear to | :36:09. | :36:16. | |
me that there cut in the bus services grant was a key issue. | :36:16. | :36:26. | |
:36:26. | :36:26. | ||
This cut in grant has resulted in these fare increases. This decision | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
for a while lies with Alex Neil. He has made a decision which is | :36:30. | :36:33. | |
directly meant affairs going up for those who can afford these | :36:33. | :36:39. | |
increases least. People who use buses do not have cars and July and | :36:39. | :36:47. | |
the services to get to work, often on lower incomes. Looking at the | :36:47. | :36:50. | |
First group operating profits for the year ending March this year, | :36:50. | :36:57. | |
pre-tax profits of �456 million. Those a sizable profits butter lot | :36:57. | :37:02. | |
of that will be from the ScotRail franchise. Buses tend to work on | :37:02. | :37:07. | |
tighter margins. I would like to see greater regulation of the bus | :37:07. | :37:12. | |
industries. Alex Neil opposed is greater accountability between bus | :37:12. | :37:17. | |
companies and the passengers they serve. Passengers have a reasonable | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
point because services cannot be run on the same level at the same | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
fares if they are facing a 20 per as it cut in the fuel rebate they | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
get from the government, which has been a long-standing subsidy for | :37:28. | :37:33. | |
the industry from the government. That is what is really hurting | :37:33. | :37:43. | |
:37:43. | :37:43. | ||
passengers hard. This is that -- is a decision made by AlexThe SNP. | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
they have misjudged the situation. They were advised by the bus | :37:46. | :37:52. | |
companies that there would be fare rises and service cuts. Three | :37:52. | :37:57. | |
months ago, they decided to charge ahead regardless of that warning | :37:57. | :38:04. | |
forced up they have missed that that situation badly. We need a | :38:04. | :38:09. | |
solution to this problem. It is chaos out there and services have | :38:09. | :38:14. | |
been slashed. Bus users are furious about this. Where will the funding | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
come from? Extra money has been received by the coalition | :38:18. | :38:23. | |
government in Westminster, about �9 million this year and �7 million | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
next year. That would goal long way to deal with the problems Alex Neil | :38:27. | :38:36. | |
has created. If we're going to meet Climate Change targets and reverse | :38:36. | :38:42. | |
the decline in bus usage, this money has to go back in. Would you | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
be looking at changing concessionary fare rules? | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
recommended that at a last election because finances are tight and | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
there are a lot of working people in the Sixties were getting free | :38:53. | :38:58. | |
bus travel have to work. We reckon we should look at the 60-65 year | :38:58. | :39:04. | |
olds and see whether they should continue to get that. You would | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
maintain it for veterans and disabled people? Those changes | :39:08. | :39:16. | |
introduced a good steps. His policy is to rob the pensioners of the | :39:16. | :39:22. | |
concessionary fare. We will not do that. We will look after pensioners | :39:22. | :39:24. | |
and make sure that the concessionary fare goes to those in | :39:24. | :39:32. | |
need, rather than unnecessarily subsidise companies also up if I | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
may say so, none of them have said what they would cut to pay for the | :39:36. | :39:45. | |
increased subsidy to the bus operators. I have, Alex. Any time | :39:45. | :39:49. | |
you mention consequential, they talk about more money for colleges, | :39:50. | :39:55. | |
schools, universities, but they never tell us how they will do that. | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
Can I just allow you to come back on that but establish that what | :39:59. | :40:01. | |
you're saying is that the bus companies can afford to absorb | :40:01. | :40:09. | |
this? They're not have there been a great deal. But they can afford it? | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
75% of the bus companies will actually be better offer have | :40:12. | :40:18. | |
exactly the same subsidies as before. Other bus companies | :40:18. | :40:23. | |
profiteering? I am not saying profiteering but if you take the | :40:23. | :40:28. | |
three big bus companies of Scotland, they're taking profits of between | :40:29. | :40:36. | |
350 in �400 million a year. We are quite keen to make sure that we use | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
our money to send advise them to do two things. To incentive buys them | :40:41. | :40:47. | |
to use their fuel more efficiently because feel is going up. Willie | :40:47. | :40:57. | |
:40:57. | :41:03. | ||
Rennie's government is pitting feel up again on that 1st August. -- | :41:03. | :41:12. | |
oputting fuek up. Looking at the total picture, in the old system, | :41:12. | :41:18. | |
the encouragement was to have a feel any fish and buses. We are | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
making it fair for or rural areas. You're saying no price hikes are no | :41:22. | :41:26. | |
job cuts? To get this in perspective, last year, bus fares | :41:26. | :41:32. | |
and Scotland rose by 2.1 per cent compared to 4.8 per cent south of | :41:32. | :41:38. | |
the border. They have slashed the subsidy says the border far more | :41:38. | :41:43. | |
than any company will suffer in terms of the Cup in Scotland. | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
south, the consultation with the bus companies was extensive, over | :41:47. | :41:53. | |
18 months. We do not have the chaos you have created a peer. Services | :41:53. | :41:59. | |
have been slashed and fares have risen. What sort of regulation | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
would have a practical impact on that? Presumably, so much and this | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
will be determined by what the bus companies decide is a profitable | :42:06. | :42:12. | |
margin. We want to see quality partnerships and Quality Contracts, | :42:12. | :42:15. | |
which have started up but there is far too few of them as Scotland was | :42:15. | :42:22. | |
up that would provide greater accountability in Scotland. In | :42:22. | :42:26. | |
terms of that the credibility, that will be important, but sticking to | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
the issue affairs, which is what we're talking about today, at the | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
end of the day it comes down to funding. People who are paying | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
through the nose today will not be impressed by this charade of the | :42:38. | :42:42. | |
shoulder of response from Alex Neil. It is his decision to cut that | :42:42. | :42:47. | |
important fuel rebate which has resulted in the pay increases. At | :42:47. | :42:57. | |
:42:57. | :42:57. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1503 seconds | :42:57. | :44:03. | |
this moment in time, that is the Can I just ask a question to | :44:03. | :44:11. | |
clarify...? If you are coming into this argument and we have known the | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
numbers for some time, with the argument had been more plausible | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
and coherent if he could specifically identify where you | :44:18. | :44:23. | |
would say that money. If there is chaos out there and people are | :44:23. | :44:26. | |
genuinely concerned, why be not have a detailed idea where you | :44:26. | :44:36. | |
:44:36. | :44:40. | ||
would say that money? He is right to identify the fact their | :44:40. | :44:43. | |
consequential. You would not recommend looking at concessionary | :44:43. | :44:53. | |
:44:53. | :44:54. | ||
fares? We went into the election pledging to retain this. We have | :44:54. | :45:03. | |
actually extended the concessionary... Willie Rennie, is | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
it right to extend this at a time when other communities could be | :45:06. | :45:11. | |
affected by this, as we have heard from people on the buses? It was | :45:11. | :45:14. | |
right to extend it but Alex Neil should have manage the situation | :45:14. | :45:22. | |
better. Richard Baker can tell us how we would fund these additional | :45:22. | :45:30. | |
subsidies for bus companies. there anywhere told... We are | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
almost out of time and we're covered all this ground. Will you | :45:34. | :45:39. | |
look at this again? Is there any way you will sit back and say we | :45:39. | :45:45. | |
did not expect... There are constant discussions with the bus | :45:45. | :45:50. | |
operators and we have agreed a way forward including bus partnerships | :45:51. | :45:57. | |
and on the Budget. The reality is we have agreement because they know | :45:57. | :46:02. | |
what we're doing is sensible and we can pay for it. There being totally | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
dishonest and their policy is to rob the pensioner to pay their | :46:05. | :46:10. | |
company more profits. We're out of time. | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
Pressure is mounting on the Westminster government to change | :46:13. | :46:15. | |
its controversial plan to cap charity donations. The chancellor | :46:15. | :46:18. | |
said he was astonished to find unlimited donations could be used | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
for tax dodging. So as George Osbourne insults genuine | :46:22. | :46:25. | |
philanthropists and alarms the rest of us with his seeming lack of | :46:25. | :46:27. | |
prior knowledge about tax avoidance scams - the finance secretary John | :46:28. | :46:37. | |
Swinney is among those today telling him to rethink. | :46:37. | :46:43. | |
The Chancellor's well-understood attempts to clamp down on tax | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
avoidance have actually had the perverse effect of creating a | :46:46. | :46:51. | |
disincentive around people donating to charity. Charitable giving is up | :46:51. | :46:54. | |
very important part of strengthening long-term investment | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
in good causes in Scotland. Joining us now from Edinburgh is Dr | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
Alison Elliot - the convenor of the Scottish Council for Voluntary | :47:00. | :47:08. | |
Organisations. Thank you for coming What you think could be the effect | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
in Scotland in particular? Do we have a lot of large donors and | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
Scotland? Not as many as down south but there are some considerable | :47:17. | :47:25. | |
once here. Not only in terms of large donations that we hear about, | :47:25. | :47:35. | |
:47:35. | :47:35. | ||
but also the various charitable trusts which make a wide range of | :47:35. | :47:37. | |
charitable nations to Scotland including small donations to small | :47:37. | :47:43. | |
charities. Some are putting money into core funding which is | :47:43. | :47:48. | |
particularly important in terms of sustaining services, as opposed the | :47:48. | :47:56. | |
project funding. Charitable trusts are likely, more likely to give | :47:56. | :48:04. | |
money to keep charities moving and keep them going. I think that it is | :48:05. | :48:13. | |
very important for the charities of Scotland that these high net worth | :48:13. | :48:16. | |
individuals are taken seriously. Why do you think the government | :48:16. | :48:23. | |
came up with this? I do not know. I cannot believe that we spend a lot | :48:23. | :48:32. | |
of time thinking about it. I think they are concerned to come down on | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
tax avoidance, which no one would deny it is an important thing to do, | :48:36. | :48:41. | |
then there are other ways of doing it. I think it is a lazy policy and | :48:41. | :48:46. | |
just the way of trying to catch a whole lot of people in the next and | :48:46. | :48:51. | |
it should be designed more work precisely for a few individuals. | :48:51. | :48:58. | |
What sort of image does it get out or create in the public mind? | :48:58. | :49:03. | |
think it is very detrimental. We can speculate about how much money | :49:03. | :49:08. | |
Mater may not be lost through this scheme. What we do not is the | :49:08. | :49:12. | |
message step has been given it is the idea that giving to charity is | :49:12. | :49:17. | |
avoiding tax. I know from trying to persuade people that it is often | :49:17. | :49:23. | |
quite difficult to persuade them that gift Aid as an OK thing to do. | :49:23. | :49:28. | |
The already see that as cheating tax. If the Government essaying | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
that giving to charity is part of avoiding paying taxes, then it is | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
going to have a knock-on effect on people who are giving modest | :49:36. | :49:45. | |
donations regularly to small charities. Tax relief would almost | :49:45. | :49:49. | |
suggest that the state recognises the role of voluntary sector and | :49:49. | :49:56. | |
charities and providing essential services. There seems to be a a | :49:56. | :50:01. | |
problem and thinking there? I have always been fascinated with the | :50:01. | :50:07. | |
principles that underline Get paid. What the government is saying that | :50:07. | :50:12. | |
giving money to charity is not the same are spending it elsewhere. In | :50:12. | :50:20. | |
some way, it is helping the state do its job. That is thinking that | :50:20. | :50:24. | |
is becoming mainline that in policy thinking in terms of the Scottish | :50:24. | :50:28. | |
government and also down south. I was on the Christie Commission | :50:28. | :50:33. | |
which were looking at the a former public services. One of the things | :50:33. | :50:37. | |
that was fundamental there was understanding that we have to | :50:37. | :50:41. | |
reduce the demand on public services. Public services cannot | :50:41. | :50:45. | |
cope with the current level of demand. One of the ways you reduce | :50:45. | :50:49. | |
demand is by keeping people out of hospital and out of prison and | :50:50. | :50:52. | |
keeping communities strong and vibrant and interesting places to | :50:52. | :51:00. | |
be. The sector generally acknowledged as doing that very | :51:00. | :51:08. | |
well is the voluntary sector. This is an essential part of Scotland | :51:08. | :51:12. | |
being able to provide the public services which a dignified and | :51:12. | :51:16. | |
deserving of this country. A thank you for that. | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
The BBC has learned that the SNP leadership is considering proposing | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
a change to the party's policy on NATO at the next meeting of their | :51:22. | :51:26. | |
National Council in June. But with many in the SNP still wedded to the | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
goal of a nuclear-free Scotland outside the alliance, do they have | :51:29. | :51:39. | |
:51:39. | :51:39. | ||
a fight on their hands? Niall O'Gallagher reports. | :51:39. | :51:45. | |
Withdrawal from NATO has been the SNP position for more than 30 years. | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
Sources have told us that the party leadership is considering a change | :51:48. | :51:52. | |
in policy with a move due in a matter of weeks. The next meeting | :51:52. | :51:58. | |
of the party's national council in June is expected to discuss whether | :51:58. | :52:02. | |
Scotland could stay in NATO while keeping the SNP commitment to get | :52:02. | :52:09. | |
rid of nuclear weapons. Recent academic research has suggested | :52:09. | :52:18. | |
such a proposal could get a welcome from the party membership. The | :52:18. | :52:23. | |
strength of feeling on this is not great. Very few of the SNP's | :52:23. | :52:28. | |
members see this as a matter of greater urgency a great importance. | :52:28. | :52:32. | |
For some in the party, opposition to NATO membership is a defining | :52:32. | :52:37. | |
issue. In a motion to mark the anniversary of the alliance, | :52:37. | :52:41. | |
nationalist MP Jamie Hepburn said that NATO was to destabilise the | :52:41. | :52:46. | |
scene -- destabilising factor in the West's relationship with Europe | :52:46. | :52:51. | |
-- Russia and it serves no useful purpose in the modern world. | :52:51. | :52:56. | |
Of those that supported the motion, two are ministers in the current | :52:56. | :53:03. | |
Scottish government. The SNP is changing. An increase in members | :53:03. | :53:08. | |
since the last election victory suggests the balance is shifting. | :53:08. | :53:16. | |
The SNP promised Stirling Council that... Anti-nuclear campaigners | :53:16. | :53:21. | |
have called on those proposing the change to step back from the brink | :53:21. | :53:28. | |
and continuing the current policy They have built up an honourable | :53:28. | :53:34. | |
position against nuclear weapons. That is because they are weapons of | :53:34. | :53:40. | |
indiscriminate mass annihilation. If they go and change their policy | :53:40. | :53:47. | |
which is a relic of the Cold War, the central plank is nuclear policy, | :53:47. | :53:52. | |
they seriously undermine their position. Abandoning plans to leave | :53:52. | :53:57. | |
NATO could make it easier for the SNP to persuade those concerned | :53:57. | :54:04. | |
about defence to vote for independence. Scotland have voted | :54:04. | :54:10. | |
Aith MP and devoted in big numbers. It did so it because it wanted to | :54:10. | :54:16. | |
be left of centre. -- SMP. It was not interested in the London wars. | :54:16. | :54:21. | |
There has been an enormous amount of goodwill from people on the left | :54:21. | :54:27. | |
of the SNP. We are now seeing what is happening here. Tomorrow, the UK | :54:27. | :54:32. | |
will conduct an exercise with NATO allies on the Clyde. With a | :54:32. | :54:37. | |
Scottish forces will continue to take part is an issue. The result | :54:37. | :54:41. | |
of that debate could be an important factor in deciding | :54:41. | :54:46. | |
whether Scots vote to pursue a foreign defence policy in the years | :54:46. | :54:51. | |
to come. With me, the former SNP special | :54:51. | :55:01. | |
:55:01. | :55:02. | ||
adviser. Thank you for coming in. If we except that the idea they are | :55:02. | :55:05. | |
considering putting to the membership of the SNP should stay | :55:05. | :55:11. | |
in NATO and get rid of nuclear weapons, would staying in NATO be | :55:11. | :55:21. | |
something acceptable to the majority of SNP members? | :55:21. | :55:28. | |
referred to to the surprise of some people that there was a concern you | :55:28. | :55:32. | |
needed to say certain things and keep the membership happy. Were the | :55:32. | :55:38. | |
membership is more pragmatic than sometimes people in the leadership | :55:38. | :55:41. | |
think. The membership is not pragmatic about nuclear weapons, | :55:41. | :55:46. | |
though. There is no doubt in my mind, the SNP, even though this is | :55:46. | :55:52. | |
the discussion, there is no doubt in my mind if this compromised the | :55:52. | :55:58. | |
SNP's Anglia -- anti-nuclear stand, it would not be countenanced. As | :55:58. | :56:02. | |
well as them being hostile to nuclear weapons, it wants to be | :56:02. | :56:06. | |
international. They wants to join things. If they can join | :56:06. | :56:11. | |
international community's, if they can engage in international | :56:11. | :56:17. | |
corporation without doing anything to overturn the SMP's anti-nuclear | :56:17. | :56:21. | |
stance, they will consider that. There will be an argument it was | :56:21. | :56:27. | |
the fact they were unequivocal on nuclear, they said no to nuclear | :56:27. | :56:32. | |
weapons on Scottish soil and said no to supporting native. That to go | :56:32. | :56:38. | |
votes from the left. They could lose a those votes. The anti- | :56:38. | :56:43. | |
nuclear stance is part of their DNA. If there was any suggestion from | :56:43. | :56:53. | |
:56:53. | :56:53. | ||
the newest member to Alex Salmond, there is no clear position on that. | :56:53. | :56:56. | |
What you're saying is the research suggests for most members, the | :56:56. | :57:05. | |
distinction is not NATO, it is about nuclear. We do not have a | :57:05. | :57:09. | |
huge amount of time. I am sorry. We are talking about why the | :57:09. | :57:13. | |
leadership would be interested in doing that. May they see themselves | :57:13. | :57:19. | |
as vulnerable on defence? If they say, we will stay in NATO, that | :57:19. | :57:24. | |
would be attractive to a wide audience. I think the point about | :57:24. | :57:30. | |
defence is, you say do the if MP feel vulnerable. That is a pretty | :57:30. | :57:40. | |
:57:40. | :57:41. | ||
ropey attack. -- best MP. They cannot have an independent defence | :57:41. | :57:46. | |
policy. The main fizzing is, in terms of their stance, they want to | :57:46. | :57:52. | |
operate, they are keen on EU membership. -- will operate. They | :57:52. | :57:58. | |
are going to investigate that. People are talking about the left. | :57:58. | :58:03. | |
Norway is the country that is held up as part of the social democratic | :58:03. | :58:10. | |
aspiration the Scotland should be looking at. They are in NATO. There | :58:10. | :58:13. | |
is nothing to say because you worry left-wing government, you cannot be | :58:14. | :58:19. | |
in NATO. That will form part of the discussions going on at the moment. | :58:19. | :58:26. | |
If you inherit treaty obligations post independence, could use not | :58:27. | :58:36. | |
:58:37. | :58:37. | ||
saying they do? -- could you not stay. In NATO. Everyone is | :58:37. | :58:44. | |
concerned about the and D nuclear stance. Thank you. A group of | :58:44. | :58:47. | |
Catholic laymen are the latest to join the debate about legislating | :58:47. | :58:52. | |
for same-sex marriage in church. They gave the Deputy First Minister | :58:52. | :58:57. | |
a petition opposing the proposal. More than 50,000 responses to the | :58:57. | :59:04. | |
Scottish government's consultation huh being considered. | :59:04. | :59:08. | |
Yesterday, these representatives were the latest to get involved in | :59:08. | :59:12. | |
this debate. They handed over a petition of around 1,000 signatures | :59:12. | :59:19. | |
to their local MSP who also speaks for the Cabinet on this issue. They | :59:19. | :59:24. | |
say they gather the signatures from five Catholic churches. We do not | :59:24. | :59:31. | |
see any reason for a change in the law. Marriage, the sanctity of | :59:31. | :59:36. | |
marriage, it is one of the fantasies of the Catholic Church. | :59:36. | :59:44. | |
The Catholic Church and the Muslim church -- Muslim community are key | :59:44. | :59:48. | |
voices. If they oppose the redefinition of marriage. Some say | :59:48. | :59:53. | |
yes to the proposal. At the moment, say that sex couples have the same | :59:53. | :59:57. | |
legal rights. The new law would allow them to get married in a | :59:57. | :00:00. | |
judge or a religious premises. Initially, ministers wanted to | :00:00. | :00:05. | |
support the changes. There consultation lasted 14 weeks and | :00:05. | :00:10. | |
the received over 50,000 responses. It is the third largest response | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
they have ever had to a consultation. No decisions have | :00:13. | :00:17. | |
been taking, decisions will be taken in due course. As the | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
Government has always made clear, if the decision is to legislate for | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
same-sex marriage, there will be protections to ensure no religious | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
group is compelled to take same-sex marriages. At Westminster, the | :00:30. | :00:37. | |
Government wants to introduced gay marriage by a 2015. The change in | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
the law would allow civil partnerships to be recognised as | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
marriage. The Scottish government is expected to publish the results | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
and make a decision on whether to take forward legislation in the | :00:48. | :00:54. | |
coming weeks. We are joined by someone from the Catholic Church. | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
We also as someone from the Church of Scotland. Thank you for coming. | :00:59. | :01:04. | |
If this legislation goes through, how will that affect the sort of | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
relationships you want your church to have with the Scottish | :01:08. | :01:13. | |
government? I think it would be a damaging move. A effects not just | :01:13. | :01:19. | |
Catholic and church services, it would affect society. It would | :01:19. | :01:25. | |
impact in education and jobs. At this stage, we want to raise it as | :01:26. | :01:30. | |
a political issue. It is because politicians really are eroding the | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
people's basic freedoms and undermining the basic understanding | :01:34. | :01:41. | |
of family life. When you hear that, as a Christian, who has opposing | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
views to that, how do you think this can be resolved? Is there any | :01:46. | :01:53. | |
way this can make people satisfied? What is there to resolve? Gay | :01:53. | :01:59. | |
couples want to marry. No problem. There are clergy who would love to | :01:59. | :02:08. | |
be able to do those marriages and we need a change in the civil law | :02:08. | :02:14. | |
to make it OK for gay couples to marry, whereas in the UK, they can | :02:14. | :02:20. | |
enter into civil partnerships. What is important to understand is no | :02:20. | :02:25. | |
minister of any stripe is going to be forced to conduct same-sex | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
marriages, just like no minister of any stripe currently is forced to | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
conduct any marriage. Let us address that. Let us talk about | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
laws and human rights. There is no compulsion on you to conduct this. | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
Equally, there are practising Christians who are gay who would | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
like to marry in church. You are denying them that right. There is | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
no compulsion on you to do something but you are denying | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
someone else something. It is a misunderstanding entirely. People | :02:55. | :03:00. | |
are free to live their lives they want. If they want to have services, | :03:00. | :03:05. | |
you can do what you want in your church. What you want to do is | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
change the understanding of marriage for society. That has a | :03:08. | :03:13. | |
huge impact. We recognise the role of a mother and father in the role | :03:13. | :03:18. | |
of a child is crucial. This would change the law so you are not | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
allowed to say a mother and father is the basis of family life. That | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
is a huge change. A is an imposition on the rest of society. | :03:26. | :03:32. | |
You're asking society to change logic. It is not about equality. | :03:32. | :03:38. | |
This is about things that are different. Is it acceptable to say, | :03:38. | :03:44. | |
there is a body of Catholic Church teaching of his marriage as to be | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
about a man and woman but other churches have other opinions? Wiser | :03:48. | :03:58. | |
:03:58. | :03:58. | ||
not to legislate in that regard and allow this? -- why is it not. | :03:58. | :04:03. | |
clear, I am a Presbyterian minister from America who works in this -- | :04:03. | :04:12. | |
who works in the Church of Scotland. What the Scottish legislation | :04:12. | :04:20. | |
proposes is the freedom for same- sex couples to marry, which brings | :04:20. | :04:28. | |
with it many legal responsibilities and commitments. They do have, the | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
rights same sex couples have, in the terms of civil partnerships, | :04:31. | :04:40. | |
they are the same. To give you an example, friends of mine, who, in | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
America, had a civil partnership, they were married in a church, they | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
did not expect it to make a big difference. And they were | :04:50. | :04:55. | |
overwhelmed with the difference it made him their relationship which | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
was a 20 year relationship at a point. To finally have a marriage | :05:00. | :05:06. | |
within a church conducted by a minister made a huge difference to | :05:06. | :05:12. | |
them. I am here to voice support for them. We do not have a huge | :05:12. | :05:17. | |
amount of time. Can I just ask you in terms of how the Catholic Church | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
has handled the interaction with the government, and we have had | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
people saying, if this is allowed, it would be a grotesque subversion | :05:25. | :05:31. | |
of Human Rights. Do you have concerns the tone has been such | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
that you have backed the Government into a corner and they cannot | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
afford to say they have been browbeaten by the Catholic Church? | :05:40. | :05:46. | |
The tone has been strong. It is a robust debate. The language used by | :05:46. | :05:55. | |
those who label people like I might myself a -- like myself as begets, | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
human rights legislation recognise that marriage is a relationship | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
between men and women. There is an importance to children. That is a | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
unique relationship. Other relationships do not fulfil a role. | :06:09. | :06:19. | |
:06:19. | :06:23. | ||
They are not of the same interest to society. But human rights | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
societies say it is about compromise to give concessions. Do | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
you regret the tone that have emerged here? Do you think the tone | :06:32. | :06:38. | |
has been damaging? What you make of the tone? I think people using | :06:38. | :06:44. | |
their common sense can see through rhetoric. We already disagree about | :06:44. | :06:52. | |
marriage. Some people consider it the sacrament. Some do not. Some | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
principalities and America are, they on her common-law marriages | :06:55. | :07:05. | |
:07:05. | :07:06. | ||
and some do not. -- they on her. There is... We have heard the | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
expression marriages of convenience. Those are accepted with | :07:11. | :07:17. | |
heterosexual couples who and traditionally, marriages were about | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
property and then about raising children. Now it is reversed. | :07:22. | :07:27. | |
People get married for romantic reasons with, or without, children. | :07:27. | :07:36. | |
And they end up in divorce. We do not have a uniform understanding of | :07:36. | :07:42. | |
marriage, anyway. We are out of time. If the legislation does go | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
ahead, what will the response be from the Catholic Church? | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
principle is did today people. The more people look at this issue, | :07:51. | :07:56. | |
they see the repercussions. They see this is a tyranny of a quality. | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
You're forced to accept the morality of other people. -- | :08:00. | :08:10. | |
:08:10. | :08:11. | ||
quality. This will be a huge change Scotland's finance secretary is | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
warning that controversial plans to cap tax relief for charitable | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
donations will damage the voluntary sector. The Chancellor George | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
Osborne is coming under mounting pressure to rethink his decision. | :08:20. | :08:29. | |
John Swinney has written to him to outline his concerns. This can | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
create a perception that charitable giving is not well, that would be | :08:32. | :08:39. | |
disastrous. There are hundreds of thousands of people across the | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
country he give to charities and we should not put any obstacles are | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
barriers in their way, or create an atmosphere which suggests that | :08:46. | :08:56. | |
:08:56. | :08:56. | ||
charitable giving is not. number of people on the NHS Organ | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
Donor Register in Scotland has reached a record high of more than | :08:59. | :09:01. | |
two million. Health Secretary Nicola Sturgeon has welcomed the | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
rise in potential donors, but says more must be done. Across the UK, | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
three people still die every day because they don't get the organ | :09:08. | :09:10. | |
they need in time. Around 5,000 runners from 30 | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
different countries have taken part in the first Rock n Roll half | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
marathon to be held in the UK. Edinburgh is hosting today's event | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
which aims to create a festival atmosphere in the city. More than | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
20 bands played to the runners along the 13 mile route, which | :09:22. | :09:23. | |
started and finished in Holyrood Park. | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
The second Scottish Cup semi-final between Celtic and Hearts kicked | :09:26. | :09:36. | |
:09:36. | :09:43. | ||
off at Hampden Stadium a short time Showers across the north and north- | :09:43. | :09:51. | |
east. They will be wintery of a higher ground. Generally dry and | :09:51. | :09:57. | |
bright with highs of 10 Celsius. A little cooler in the north-east. | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
This evening and overnight, showers die away and will be cold and | :10:01. | :10:10. | |
frosty. That is the forecast for Our next bulletin is at 6:50pm. | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
Now in a moment, we'll be discussing the big events coming up | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
this week at Holyrood, but first, let's take a look back at the Week | :10:17. | :10:27. | |
:10:27. | :10:31. | ||
Cameras will be allowed into court when David Gilroy is sentenced for | :10:31. | :10:37. | |
the murder. This is the first time permission has been granted to from | :10:37. | :10:43. | |
a sentencing at a High Court. Phil Walker, an SNP MSP expelled | :10:43. | :10:49. | |
from the party following domestic abuse allegations is staying on as | :10:49. | :10:55. | |
an independent nationalist MSPs. Tests carried out on fish caught | :10:55. | :11:00. | |
close to a gas leak at an Elgin oil platform has found they are not | :11:00. | :11:06. | |
contaminated. The environmental impact appears to be minimal. | :11:06. | :11:12. | |
evidence of any contamination a tainted hydrocarbons in any fish. | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
250 samples were taken so we are reassured. The first extensive | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
research on a new Schools Curriculum has suggested many | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
teachers were anxious about its implementation but the Scottish | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
government has said a great strides had been taken according to | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
information taken over the last school year. Next week, politicians | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
both North and South of the border will be returning to parliamentary | :11:34. | :11:44. | |
:11:44. | :11:45. | ||
With me are two seasoned political observers, Iain Macwhirter and Alex | :11:45. | :11:55. | |
:11:55. | :11:58. | ||
Massie. Thank you both for coming in. The | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
argument over charitable tax donations - where will this send- | :12:01. | :12:09. | |
up? I think it demonstrates two things. The first is that the | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
Treasury's default presumption that every pound in Britain belongs to | :12:12. | :12:21. | |
it. It will grudgingly allow it taxpayers to retain some of their | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
money but in an ideal world, but regime would receive all money | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
first and then gradually disperse some of it. The second thing is | :12:30. | :12:36. | |
that is another political problem for the Conservatives and for a | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
government that is friendless in the media. The Daily Mail has been | :12:41. | :12:46. | |
hostile and the Daily Telegraph has also been hostile. This is a | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
Conservative lead a government that is not tenable popular in the | :12:49. | :12:55. | |
Conservative press. The more details that come out about the | :12:55. | :13:01. | |
Chancellor's budget, you more you see it is -- the more you see here | :13:01. | :13:07. | |
is an inveterate tinkerer. It is all far too clever by half. It is | :13:07. | :13:12. | |
reminiscent of Gordon Brown in some respects. You have a Chancellor who | :13:12. | :13:18. | |
has delivered at tax-raising Budget ineptly disguised as a tax cutting | :13:18. | :13:24. | |
Budget. Once everything begins to unravel, people are increasingly | :13:24. | :13:30. | |
aware of how many taxes are being increased. And surprisingly, this | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
is unpopular. Where you surprised when he said he had no idea this | :13:34. | :13:43. | |
was going on? If he didn't know, that's worrying. People from his | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
background should know all about the ways in which charities and | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
charitable trusts can be used. The Government is making it clear there | :13:51. | :13:59. | |
will be concessions and this may make it even worse. There is an | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
inequity in that if you are I donate to charity, we cannot set | :14:03. | :14:08. | |
that against her income tax. We cannot use it to reduce their tax | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
bill. That is the inequity. People who have more money than we do can | :14:12. | :14:19. | |
do that. It has been used transparently as a way of reducing | :14:19. | :14:29. | |
:14:29. | :14:32. | ||
tax. What is the answer then? We have heard about the problems if | :14:32. | :14:37. | |
those large donations Dyer up? Is the answer better regulated | :14:37. | :14:43. | |
charities? Perhaps we should all be given tax relief for her charitable | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
donations. Either that are encourage people who are wealthy | :14:46. | :14:52. | |
enough to pay donations to pay their taxes as well. A taxes go to | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
pay for schools and hospitals and to keep people at the poverty. | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
These are worthwhile objectives and I think it is wrong to avoid paying | :15:01. | :15:09. | |
what I did used to be part of a civil society, which are our taxes. | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
The obviously where in a pickle after the Budget after their granny | :15:14. | :15:20. | |
tax and the pass the tax. They had to do something to move matters on | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
and the focus on tax evasion. Looking at tax evasion, the first | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
issue is how money is given to charitable trusts. I thought Ian | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
was going to say it was just some dinner-party chat which would have | :15:32. | :15:41. | |
allowed me to say it, let's move on to the front page of the Economist. | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
That is the sort of thing you hear in dinner-parties. What did you | :15:45. | :15:53. | |
make of the fact, the sort of response is that drew in. First off, | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
it was a successful cover and managed to get people talking about | :15:57. | :16:07. | |
:16:07. | :16:08. | ||
it. In terms of humour and irony of satire, it is the able but not | :16:08. | :16:13. | |
quite as feeble as many of the nationalist responses to it. It is | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
not a grotesque insult to all come up -- all Scots or evidence of | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
Little Englander imperialism. People have to grow up about it and | :16:23. | :16:28. | |
if you cannot take a joke, you cannot run a country. I thought it | :16:28. | :16:33. | |
was mildly amusing and a sub private-eye way. If you read the | :16:33. | :16:41. | |
article itself, it is a rather feeble proposition. You can see | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
right at the start that the Scot can actually pay their way. Looking | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
at where the SNP are heading in terms of membership of NATO, what | :16:50. | :16:57. | |
you think of that? It is moving and it has been moving for a long time. | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
NATO itself is something of an anachronism. It was set up to deal | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
with the perceived menace from the Soviet Union. That no longer | :17:06. | :17:14. | |
applies in the same form. The SNP is all about removing the negatives. | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
They want to encourage people that they are about joining something | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
rather than leaving everything. They say that instead of talking | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
about NATO we must talk about some kind of informal Nordic alliance | :17:26. | :17:31. | |
with countries who are non-nuclear. The problem is that NATO is | :17:31. | :17:36. | |
explicitly and nuclear alliance and we have the nuclear weapons here. | :17:36. | :17:43. | |
What is most interesting to see as we get closer to independence is | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
how the existence of these bases is used in negotiations on some form | :17:48. | :17:54. | |
of federalism or independence, and who will see some delaying of the | :17:54. | :17:58. | |
timetable over that in which nuclear weapons would be removed | :17:58. | :18:08. | |
:18:08. | :18:09. | ||
from our soil. They will be part of independence negotiations? | :18:09. | :18:16. | |
negotiator would throw away the submarines on the Clyde. The SNP's | :18:17. | :18:22. | |
defence policy, like it and Akram's, was not built and a day. It is part | :18:22. | :18:29. | |
of a way of removing objections in Middle Scotland to voting SNP. They | :18:29. | :18:34. | |
need to reassure voters that in the same way the SNP has changed its | :18:34. | :18:40. |