30/09/2012 Sunday Politics Scotland


30/09/2012

Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser with the latest political news, and interviews with deputy Labour leader Harriet Harman and the Liberal Democrat health minister Norman Lamb.


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Good morning and welcome to this Sunday politics. Does anyone it

:00:48.:00:58.

really know what the leader of the Labour Party really stands for? The

:00:58.:01:04.

biggest union boss wants to purge of the party of New Labour Blairite.

:01:04.:01:11.

He wants to the Labour leader to support calls for a general strike.

:01:11.:01:18.

Should he? Nick Clegg told the Lib-Dems are

:01:18.:01:21.

they are now the third party of government, but can be really

:01:22.:01:31.
:01:32.:01:33.

clawed their way back into contention for the next election?

:01:33.:01:39.

Will it Johann Lamont's policy shift into votes at the ballot box?

:01:40.:01:49.
:01:50.:01:50.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1783 seconds

:01:50.:31:33.

And the cuts to the police civilian It can been done entirely within

:31:33.:31:36.

the law. It will show the government that they have to think

:31:36.:31:41.

again. The reason we see that is because the people we represent all

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that if we do not oppose what is happening, they will regret it for

:31:45.:31:52.

decades to come. You think the government will say that they will

:31:52.:31:57.

stop this course and will have a new plan because of a strike? It is

:31:57.:32:02.

inconceivable. If you had the whole of the public behind you, it is

:32:02.:32:09.

feasible that might happen. But you will not. It is not going to happen.

:32:09.:32:19.

There is not the Wellspring of support. To simply go out on strike

:32:19.:32:26.

generally, you will not that everybody to do so, within Nineties,

:32:26.:32:32.

you will be coming back with nothing achieved. You have a very

:32:32.:32:36.

pessimistic outlook. If that we tell you something about the people

:32:36.:32:42.

I represent. The majority of am earn less than �20,000 a year.

:32:42.:32:46.

Their living standards have collapsed. End of the civil service,

:32:46.:32:56.

their jobs are going. If that is true, why did only 20% bother to

:32:56.:33:06.
:33:06.:33:11.

vote about a strike this summer? a result of the threat to strike,

:33:11.:33:21.
:33:21.:33:22.

1100 extra permanent jobs were won in the Home Office. If things are

:33:22.:33:28.

so bad, why do your members not even bother to vote? One of the

:33:28.:33:31.

reasons why I think there is a problem with turnout is that if you

:33:31.:33:35.

look at the political parties, nobody is offering any alternative

:33:35.:33:40.

or any hope. Many people are affected by the gloom and despair.

:33:41.:33:45.

I am convinced that when people realise that 80% of the cuts are

:33:45.:33:51.

still to come, not only will the support industrial action, I

:33:51.:33:55.

believe it will be popular with members of the public. The last

:33:55.:34:00.

time we had a massive strike, most people supported the strike even

:34:00.:34:05.

though we had been demonised in the media. It is unfair to say that

:34:05.:34:15.
:34:15.:34:16.

most people are not offering a hope. Ed Miliband will be making a speech

:34:16.:34:20.

this week about responsible capitalism and despair sing wealth

:34:20.:34:30.
:34:30.:34:37.

better. -- disbursing. The biggest union has called for a purge on

:34:37.:34:44.

Blairites. How long will the unions pay for the Labour Party and of get

:34:44.:34:51.

what they want? They will carry on paying for the Labour Party. The

:34:51.:34:54.

task for the Labour Party is to supplement that muddy with extra

:34:54.:35:00.

Buddy. As Labour becomes a more likely to form part of a government,

:35:00.:35:07.

you will find more money coming to the Labour Party. Ed Miliband has

:35:07.:35:14.

to resist Mr McCluskey. His chances of being Prime Minister are reduced

:35:14.:35:23.

if he does not. What is the point of supporting the Labour Party if

:35:23.:35:29.

unions do not go much in return? century ago, the Labour Party was

:35:30.:35:34.

founded by the unions to speak up for working people. There are still

:35:34.:35:41.

some in the Labour Party -- in the union movement who believe that

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link is worth maintaining. Ed Miliband has to understand he does

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not enthuse or inspire anyone when his slogan is that he will cut

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slightly less, slightly less fast. People want to be inspired. We need

:35:57.:36:03.

to say that the markets are dictating social policy in Britain

:36:03.:36:08.

will be challenged. I understand that, it is not what I asked, but

:36:08.:36:15.

never mind. Is there any chance of a general strike? It is part of the

:36:15.:36:25.

fantasy left. There will not be a general strike. I do not get

:36:25.:36:35.
:36:35.:36:39.

fixated on the labels. And it will be for more than a day if we do not

:36:39.:36:44.

see a change of direction. You are watching this Sunday

:36:44.:36:54.
:36:54.:37:00.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the

:37:00.:37:04.

programme. The new Head of the Police Service admits more civilian

:37:04.:37:07.

job losses are on the way. Over 8% of back office jobs have already

:37:07.:37:11.

been cut. So is there a tipping point where bobbies on the beat end

:37:11.:37:15.

up becoming bobbies on the seat? We'll be live in Manchester at the

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Labour Party Conference with Douglas Alexander.

:37:22.:37:24.

A former kirk minister and now Princeton professor tells Wigtown

:37:24.:37:27.

Book festival that Scottish public life is in crisis. The civic

:37:27.:37:31.

solution - a space in the debate where everyone can be a bit braver

:37:31.:37:33.

and a bit more more respectful of each other.

:37:33.:37:36.

And as the women for independence campaign launches, we ask if female

:37:36.:37:42.

voters really need special attention?

:37:42.:37:45.

Stephen House, the clear favourite, has become the Chief Constable of

:37:45.:37:50.

the new Police Service of Scotland. He will take up his duties soon in

:37:50.:37:53.

advance of the amalgamation of the existing eight forces on April the

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1st. But already he has sparked controversy with his admission that

:37:56.:37:59.

more than 3,000 civilian staff may have to lose their jobs. The

:37:59.:38:02.

Government is of course pledged to maintain the number of police

:38:02.:38:07.

officers. It has alarmed unions and they are seeking a meeting with the

:38:07.:38:09.

new Chief Constable later this week. Our Home Affairs Correspondent,

:38:09.:38:16.

Reevel Alderson reports. Athan blue line, not if the

:38:16.:38:21.

government has its way. It is pledged to maintain police officer

:38:21.:38:25.

levels at 1000 more than when it took office. So far, it has managed

:38:25.:38:35.
:38:35.:38:42.

But their new chief constable, Stephen House, knows that he must

:38:42.:38:47.

cut spending and he has admitted that up to 3200 civilian staff may

:38:47.:38:57.
:38:57.:39:05.

go. It has been a process of that Can more cuts be made without

:39:05.:39:12.

hitting police operations? It makes logical sense that staff can be cut.

:39:12.:39:17.

Each force has an HR department, payable staff and admin. These will

:39:17.:39:22.

all be merged. But there are other civilians whose jobs directly

:39:22.:39:26.

support uniformed officers. will not be able to maintain order

:39:26.:39:31.

officers on the street if there is an absence of support in the offers.

:39:31.:39:39.

People lead to find out about warrants. They IFS no one doing

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that administrative work. The same goes for intelligence work. --

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there is no one doing. The Liberal Democrats have consistently opposed

:39:52.:40:00.

the single for Los and see it will be a retrograde step if police

:40:00.:40:07.

officers have to do these jobs again. You have to make sure you

:40:07.:40:11.

have the right people in the right places. Police officer should not

:40:11.:40:15.

be in the back Office to do jobs that prevent them from getting out

:40:15.:40:23.

on the front line. Government supporters see rationalisation is

:40:23.:40:27.

inevitable. They argue the process could be wider than just the police

:40:27.:40:32.

service. They are opportunities collected with collaborative work

:40:32.:40:36.

in other authorities. The fire service for instance and ambulance

:40:36.:40:44.

service. We do not need all the posts that presently exist.

:40:44.:40:47.

government has also said there will be there all outsourcing of

:40:47.:40:57.
:40:57.:41:01.

functions to a private companies to reduce the Staff head count. But

:41:01.:41:08.

how can services be maintained with these reductions? In our Inverness

:41:08.:41:10.

studio this morning is Chief Superintendent David O'Connor.

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He is the President of the Association of Scottish Police

:41:13.:41:15.

Superintendents, that's the national body which represents

:41:15.:41:16.

operational commanders across Scotland.

:41:16.:41:23.

Thank you for joining us. That Sunday Herald is reporting that the

:41:23.:41:28.

single force will involve cuts of 300 million over the next three

:41:28.:41:35.

years, 550 staff will go immediately and �26 million will

:41:35.:41:39.

come out of terms and conditions for police officers. But these

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figures that you recognise? These figures have not been discussed at

:41:46.:41:53.

the Police Reform Group. The article today makes a reference to

:41:53.:41:56.

the Police Reform Group. I am a member of that particular group and

:41:56.:42:02.

I have not had an opportunity to scrutinise these figures.

:42:02.:42:12.
:42:12.:42:15.

understand they have come principally from across. -- Actos.

:42:15.:42:20.

How concerned would you be? We have backed a single police service

:42:20.:42:28.

across Scotland. We also have opposition that we believe in the

:42:28.:42:32.

balance of a workforce. That is about police officers delivering

:42:32.:42:37.

local and national policing, supported by support staff in a

:42:37.:42:44.

whole range of functions. We would like to have an early meeting with

:42:44.:42:48.

Stephen House and the convenor of the new police authority to discuss

:42:49.:42:53.

this particular balance. It is unfortunate if you have already

:42:53.:42:57.

said that this is a good idea in principle, and as it turns out, do

:42:57.:43:03.

you have any reservations at all? We always supported the concept of

:43:03.:43:08.

a single police service for Scotland. It was about maintaining

:43:08.:43:13.

police officer numbers as a part of a balanced workforce. It was about

:43:13.:43:19.

removing duplication. One of the factors there was involved was the

:43:19.:43:24.

downturn in the economy and the need to make efficiency savings.

:43:24.:43:28.

But what will it mean for policing in that Scotland? Their new policy

:43:28.:43:33.

model will have to have a balance between police officers and police

:43:33.:43:41.

staff. That will involve the types of officers in forensics and

:43:41.:43:51.

custody suites, in detention centres. This is people's jobs we

:43:51.:44:01.
:44:01.:44:01.

are talking about. The report says that redundant posts will be filled

:44:01.:44:08.

by police officers. Policing is a complex business. It is a mix of

:44:08.:44:12.

skills, experience and power. We want the right person with the

:44:13.:44:16.

right scale doing the right job at the right time. I have to labour

:44:16.:44:21.

this point. Policing is about a balance to work force. There is a

:44:21.:44:25.

great deal of rhetoric about front line policing. We need to move

:44:25.:44:30.

forward and agree and develop a model for policing for Scotland.

:44:30.:44:34.

That comprises police officers and police staff would to provide a

:44:34.:44:39.

very important job. In principle, if police officers are taken of

:44:39.:44:48.

frontline duties, is that appropriate for their role at what

:44:48.:44:53.

we all expect them to do? Is it appropriate that they are not on

:44:53.:45:01.

the beat it and doing something behind the desk? We as commanders

:45:01.:45:05.

wanted to see police officers who are highly trained and highly

:45:05.:45:12.

experienced out doing the job in their local communities. You have

:45:12.:45:16.

spoken about the demarcation lines between his some forms of police

:45:16.:45:24.

work. Does there need to be greater clarity about who is in the fraud

:45:24.:45:34.
:45:34.:45:34.

team, the drugs team, the forensic team? Should they be lend him with

:45:34.:45:44.
:45:44.:45:51.

the civilian staff when it comes to these cuts? -- linked in. I think

:45:51.:45:55.

there needs to be a very clear debate and a clear understanding of

:45:55.:45:59.

what these terms actually mean. Sometimes these terms can be

:45:59.:46:03.

unhelpful. What is the point of having a debate now of the deal is

:46:03.:46:09.

already done? It is back to the point that I was making earlier. We

:46:09.:46:13.

accept that savings have to be made, but we still need to have the

:46:13.:46:18.

opportunity as a staff association and the unions still the to have a

:46:18.:46:22.

meeting in relation to the figures that are being provided to allow

:46:22.:46:26.

them to represent the interests of their members and, more importantly,

:46:26.:46:32.

to develop a new policing order for Scotland. Does at the new structure

:46:32.:46:37.

allow you to do that as efficiently as you could have done before? For

:46:37.:46:41.

example, the former Highlander chief constable is saying that the

:46:41.:46:47.

new authority, the support staff, the budgets, none of that will be

:46:47.:46:53.

decided locally, it will all be decided centrally. One of the

:46:53.:47:00.

things that we have got a challenge with is the constraints of time.

:47:00.:47:04.

Then you police service for Scotland will be up and running in

:47:04.:47:11.

April. -- the their new police service. Thank you very much for

:47:11.:47:21.
:47:21.:47:21.

Johann Lamont set the cat among the pigeons this week with a surprise

:47:21.:47:25.

and radical policy shift. She said that the idea that Scotland could

:47:25.:47:30.

remain in a nation where everything was free is a lie propagated by the

:47:30.:47:34.

SNP. A commission is looking into the affordability of universal

:47:34.:47:42.

benefits such as free care for the elderly, tuition fees, bus passes

:47:42.:47:46.

and others. We went to meet some of the people who benefit from these

:47:46.:47:49.

policies. People at this coffee morning are

:47:49.:47:56.

dipping into their pockets for charity. This is a leafy suburb to

:47:56.:47:59.

the South of Glasgow. They are digesting the news that Johann

:47:59.:48:04.

Lamont wants to overhaul universal benefits, but they seem attached to

:48:04.:48:08.

get free bus passes and prescription. I worked on my life

:48:08.:48:16.

and I do not get any other benefits. I worked until I was 70. I have

:48:16.:48:21.

paid in, so why not? I have paid for it! We should all have to pay

:48:21.:48:26.

something. We are having a problem financially, so we should pay

:48:27.:48:31.

something. When it comes to benefits, most people here feel

:48:31.:48:35.

they are entitled to their slice of the cake, but Labour are sounding

:48:35.:48:40.

the alarm, saying the plate is empty. The idea that Scotland is a

:48:40.:48:46.

land where everything is free is alive. Somebody always pays for it

:48:46.:48:51.

in the end. A council tax freeze costs. It is cheap to say, but

:48:51.:48:56.

expensive to fund. An expert has been charged with examining the

:48:56.:49:02.

affordability of universal benefits. One party estimate is that they

:49:02.:49:06.

cost �1 billion every year. Labour say the current financial situation

:49:06.:49:11.

means that 30,000 public-sector jobs have been lost in their class

:49:11.:49:16.

to 18 months. These are people who are leaving their posts. That takes

:49:16.:49:20.

spending power out of the economy. We cannot have a recovery while

:49:20.:49:24.

that is happening and while other services are being protected.

:49:24.:49:28.

Nothing is off the table in this review, but it led to allegations

:49:28.:49:32.

that Labour were betraying their socialist principles. It is

:49:32.:49:41.

actually quite tragic to. Johann Lamont, a poster girl for be Tories,

:49:42.:49:46.

whatever happened to Labour? We used to have new Labour, and now we

:49:46.:49:56.

have Johann Lamont, New Blair. have to live with the reality of

:49:56.:49:59.

the public finance situation. They are difficult decisions to be made

:49:59.:50:02.

and we have to find a way of delivering social justice in these

:50:02.:50:09.

times. Despite what most people at the coffee morning said, the social

:50:09.:50:12.

service -- attitude suggests a fifty-fifty split over whether or

:50:12.:50:18.

not people should play -- pay for prescriptions and personal care.

:50:18.:50:23.

Their stance could be a gamble. SNP went through the same thing.

:50:23.:50:33.
:50:33.:50:34.

They do think in their heart of Hearts that a lot of Scottish

:50:34.:50:38.

people would see the need and the reason behind small cuts. When it

:50:38.:50:42.

came to it, they said thanks, but no thanks. The party may think that

:50:43.:50:47.

honesty is the best policy, but when it comes to goodies, voters

:50:47.:50:50.

may find it hard to resist temptation.

:50:50.:50:54.

Listing to that at the Labour Party conference is the Shadow Foreign

:50:54.:50:57.

Secretary and MP for Paisley and Renfrewshire South, Douglas

:50:57.:51:03.

Alexander. Thank you for talking to us. If we look at this issue of

:51:03.:51:08.

universal benefits festival, whatever the merits of the argument,

:51:08.:51:12.

it is a risky political discretion to have, so it is imperative that

:51:12.:51:17.

these are kids are presented coherently and credibly from the

:51:17.:51:23.

beginning. Has this happened? think what Johann Lamont did this

:51:23.:51:26.

week was to start a serious conversation about a serious issue,

:51:26.:51:31.

which is, how do you deliver social justice in tough times against a

:51:31.:51:37.

backdrop of real fiscal head wins - - winds when many will be in short

:51:37.:51:43.

supply after 2015? That has provoked a strong reaction from the

:51:43.:51:47.

SNP, but that is because the SNP feel they have been winning in

:51:47.:51:52.

Scotland. The dynamic has been between Scotland and the rest of

:51:52.:51:55.

the United Kingdom. Johann Lamont was opening up a different

:51:55.:51:59.

conversation, saying there is still an important left right

:51:59.:52:05.

conversation in the country. That will cause difficulty for the SNP,

:52:05.:52:10.

but it is a timely conversation and a necessary one, because my own

:52:10.:52:15.

patch in Paisley, we are seeing annual cuts of almost 10%. Why

:52:15.:52:22.

should young children in Paisley be suffering as a direct taught --

:52:22.:52:31.

consequence of the SNP's decisions? You say it is a timely and

:52:31.:52:35.

necessary conversation, but the question I ask you was, in a week

:52:35.:52:38.

in which we have seen the Scottish Conservatives are meeting to say

:52:38.:52:42.

they are glad to see Johann Lamont come on board with their ideas, has

:52:42.:52:52.
:52:52.:52:54.

a complex argument been put forward clearly enough at this stage tee?

:52:54.:52:58.

Should you be associated with the Conservatives? Let me make the

:52:58.:53:04.

point that you quoted the Conservatives and I could quite an

:53:05.:53:14.
:53:15.:53:15.

eerie and Bevan. Johann Lamont was opening up a conversation about

:53:15.:53:19.

what Scotland's priorities were for building be good society. I do not

:53:19.:53:24.

know why these aside -- Gethin be is scared of the debate. Is there a

:53:24.:53:28.

time to draw a line and say that you can be clear about the

:53:28.:53:31.

timescale and tell people what the priorities are before the

:53:31.:53:38.

referendum vote? We are very early into the new Scottish Parliament.

:53:38.:53:42.

It is said to recognise that Labour suffered a bad defeat last year. I

:53:42.:53:47.

think now is the time to set out her stall and are thinking. We have

:53:47.:53:51.

been midwinter Commission which will look at all these issues of

:53:51.:53:55.

affordability. The other point worth making is that we have always

:53:55.:53:58.

believed in a welfare state that balances universalism with targeted

:53:58.:54:02.

support. That is why we have the state pension, but also the pension

:54:02.:54:11.

credit. We have child benefit, but also child tax credit. And not

:54:11.:54:15.

clear as to the are to be that says there needs to be a line of clarity,

:54:15.:54:18.

because in Scotland we have had years of universal and targeted

:54:18.:54:22.

support. The balance between those two is a legitimate debate to be

:54:22.:54:26.

had in the years ahead. If you are saying that at the time of the

:54:26.:54:30.

referendum, Labour going saying we have to have a debate about it,

:54:30.:54:33.

your opponents can attach anything they want to it as they have done

:54:33.:54:40.

this week. I am not complacent about the referendum, but I

:54:40.:54:43.

understand the desperation in the nationalist camps. It has been

:54:43.:54:49.

fortified years that the SNP have been polling about 30% in support

:54:49.:54:53.

of independence. That remains the case despite their historic victory

:54:53.:54:57.

last year. I understand the appetite amongst journalists and

:54:57.:55:03.

politicians to try to attribute every move in a Holyrood on its

:55:03.:55:08.

impact on referendum figures. The numbers have not shifted one iota

:55:08.:55:15.

since Alex Salmond was elected in 2007. I think our job is to make

:55:15.:55:19.

the case that Scotland would be best it within the United Kingdom,

:55:19.:55:22.

but also to get on with the task with recognising the fact that

:55:22.:55:26.

Scottish Labour is thinking hard about what are tough questions.

:55:26.:55:29.

Bill Clinton sped to the Democrats a couple of weeks ago and said that

:55:29.:55:33.

his issues in terms of the budget was not tied into ideology but

:55:33.:55:38.

arithmetic. What Johann Lamont was saying in Edinburgh this week was

:55:38.:55:43.

not just related to ideology but also to the basic arithmetic. The

:55:43.:55:47.

SNP will be cut in services, but they do not want to have a

:55:47.:55:52.

conversation about which services those will be. All the universal

:55:52.:55:57.

benefits that I enjoyed in Scotland at the minute are up for grabs.

:55:57.:56:03.

Means testing is inevitable now in this debate, isn't it? In the

:56:03.:56:07.

welfare state that we have had for many years, there has been a

:56:07.:56:10.

conversation -- combination of universal and targeted support.

:56:10.:56:17.

That will be the case still. There will be universal benefits, but

:56:17.:56:27.
:56:27.:56:36.

also targeted support. The logic of that argument is that the the

:56:36.:56:41.

wealthiest people should pay for their NHS treatment tee No. As I

:56:41.:56:51.

have said, we recognise the principle of access to the NHS. Let

:56:51.:56:56.

me make my point. When we came to power in 1997, we face a judgement

:56:56.:57:00.

as to whether to put the additional revenues we were generating into

:57:00.:57:05.

the basic state pension or target that money towards the poorest

:57:05.:57:08.

pensioners through the pension credit. I am not ashamed of the

:57:08.:57:11.

decision to target the poorest pensioners first with extra help.

:57:11.:57:15.

That was the right decision for social justice, and that is the

:57:15.:57:18.

kind of conversation that Johann Lamont was beginning this week.

:57:18.:57:22.

That is the point that I'm trying to make to you. The electorate have

:57:22.:57:25.

a right to know what these principles are and what these

:57:25.:57:29.

distinctions are that you will draw and what you're spending priorities

:57:29.:57:33.

will be before they go to be referendum vote. He seemed very

:57:33.:57:39.

relaxed about the timing of this. Arthur midwinter has his work to

:57:39.:57:44.

take forward as is always the case. The Scottish Labour Party was set

:57:44.:57:51.

at our thinking at the time of be manifestos before the election.

:57:51.:57:55.

There will be further opportunities for Johann Lamont to set at her

:57:55.:57:58.

thinking. I welcome the idea that there is a serious conversation to

:57:58.:58:02.

be had about a serious issue that is already affecting my

:58:02.:58:07.

constituents. Renfrewshire has already suffered a cut in its

:58:07.:58:12.

funding while other better off areas have had increases in its

:58:12.:58:22.
:58:22.:58:23.

funding. -- in their funding. This issue is happening now. This debate

:58:23.:58:27.

demands to be had now. I welcome the fact that Johann Lamont started

:58:27.:58:32.

this week. I take the rather hysterical reaction of some

:58:32.:58:35.

nationalists as evidence that despite the posts and the bluster,

:58:35.:58:43.

they do not have good chances in this debate. Today in the

:58:43.:58:53.
:58:53.:58:55.

newspapers, it says that Labour seeks more powers for Holyrood.

:58:55.:58:59.

Labour has established at a commission on further devolution.

:58:59.:59:03.

You have been calling for a further devolved vision for Scotland. Have

:59:03.:59:08.

they been too slow to get out of the blocks on this one? I welcomed

:59:08.:59:13.

the devolution commission that Jeilan has announced. -- that

:59:13.:59:17.

Johann Lamont has announced. We have been talking about the tough

:59:17.:59:21.

choices that are faced in delivering social justice. It is

:59:21.:59:24.

right to look at the issue as to what is the best constitutional

:59:24.:59:28.

settlement for Scotland. We do not accept that a separate state is the

:59:28.:59:32.

best way forward, but I think that in a pragmatic or calm and

:59:33.:59:37.

reasonable fashion, we should look at the devolution settlement and

:59:37.:59:39.

whether that offers the best balance of powers which can give

:59:40.:59:43.

Scotland the opportunity to grow and succeed in the future. Douglas

:59:43.:59:48.

Alexander, we have to leave it there. Thank you for joining us.

:59:48.:59:51.

Coming up later on the programme, we will be hearing from William

:59:51.:59:56.

Storrar, the theological professor from Princeton University. We'll

:59:56.:00:00.

also be finding out what we need for independence are up to. That is

:00:00.:00:05.

all after the lunch time news at 12pm with Tim Willcox and Andrew

:00:05.:00:15.

Good afternoon. The Labour leader Ed Miliband has said he will stand

:00:15.:00:19.

up to powerful interest groups on behalf of the hard-working majority.

:00:19.:00:23.

Speaking ahead of the start of the Labour Party conferences after

:00:23.:00:26.

being, Ed Miliband said he would take on the banks and his own trade

:00:26.:00:30.

union supporters as he seeks to rebuild the British economy. Arts

:00:30.:00:38.

correspondent reports. The slogan is, rebuilding Britain.

:00:38.:00:42.

That Labour also has to rebuild the trust it loss at the last election.

:00:42.:00:45.

They need to convince voters that Ed Miliband is a potential Prime

:00:45.:00:50.

Minister. He was recognised by this writer this morning, but although

:00:50.:00:53.

his party is ahead in the polls, his own ratings remain poor. He

:00:53.:00:58.

says that Labour has to change, but he will remain trees to himself.

:00:58.:01:03.

I'm going to do it my own way. I think in the end people respect

:01:03.:01:07.

somebody who has seriousness of purpose. It is not just Labour's

:01:07.:01:11.

conference which is getting a makeover. The task is to find

:01:11.:01:16.

policies which are distinctive for be -- from the coalition --

:01:16.:01:21.

distinct from the coalition but do not cause a crash. Ed Miliband is

:01:21.:01:25.

prepared to break up the banks to protect High Street customers from

:01:25.:01:33.

investment operations. That is a massive difference in priorities

:01:33.:01:39.

between a Prime Minister that I aspire to beer, -- aspire to be, to

:01:39.:01:42.

help people who cannot get by on their own, and a government which

:01:42.:01:51.

just wants to cut taxes for the rich. The unions make a big

:01:51.:01:54.

financial contribution to the Labour Party, and they want to use

:01:54.:01:58.

their muscle to influence party policy. Ed Miliband says he will

:01:58.:02:03.

not give into his party pay masters on the subject of pay. We are

:02:03.:02:13.
:02:13.:02:16.

tackling the subject of pay rises, bit it is the way to keep jobs.

:02:16.:02:20.

The number of American service personnel who have lost their lives

:02:20.:02:24.

in Afghanistan since the beginning of the conflict in 2001 has reached

:02:24.:02:32.

2000. A US soldier was shot dead yesterday in a so-called green-on-

:02:32.:02:35.

blue attack by a member of the Afghan security forces.

:02:35.:02:41.

A fire in the Syrian city of Aleppo has destroyed many of the medieval

:02:41.:02:44.

markets there as a fighting rages between government troops and

:02:44.:02:50.

rebels. Fires tour through many areas of the old city, a UNESCO

:02:50.:02:54.

heritage site. It is the final day of playing the

:02:54.:03:00.

Ryder Cup which gets under way in Chicago in America. America's of us

:03:00.:03:08.

are just 4.5 points short of victory over the Europeans.

:03:08.:03:18.

That is all the news without. There will be more on BBC One at 6:35pm.

:03:18.:03:22.

Good afternoon. Hundreds of people were delayed at Glasgow Airport

:03:22.:03:27.

overnight because of a UK Border Force computer failure. Passengers

:03:27.:03:30.

on three planes travelling from Greece and Egypt were forced to

:03:30.:03:35.

wait for several hours. The system eventually returns to normal, with

:03:35.:03:39.

queues taking about three hours to clear.

:03:39.:03:41.

The school della blogger Martha Payne has arrived with her family

:03:42.:03:49.

in Malawi to see how the thousands of pounds she raised on a website

:03:49.:03:55.

is being spent. She commented on her in-flight meal on a read.

:03:55.:03:58.

Donations to their website soared after a controversial ban was

:03:58.:04:02.

imposed on the block by Argyll and Bute Council. 2000 children are

:04:02.:04:06.

being fed every day in one kitchen which has been set up.

:04:06.:04:12.

Golf, and in the final days of the Ryder Cup, the European team are up

:04:12.:04:22.
:04:22.:04:22.

against it. The Scottish player has played in two matches and has lost

:04:22.:04:28.

both so far. USA lead lot -- Europe by 10 points to six. Here is the

:04:28.:04:37.

The weather will get better as we go through his afternoon. There

:04:37.:04:40.

will be some showers in the North and West. The rain will eventually

:04:40.:04:44.

cleared, turning bright for most, with some lovely spells of sunshine.

:04:44.:04:50.

It is a windy afternoon, particularly in the North West.

:04:50.:04:56.

Temperatures are mild, at about 15 Celsius. A fine ends today in the

:04:56.:05:00.

East and in the South, but there will still be showers in the North

:05:00.:05:10.
:05:10.:05:11.

West. Can we hope for a more public

:05:11.:05:13.

spirited Scotland to emerge from the independence debate? That was

:05:13.:05:16.

the big question to the Wigtown Book Festival from Professor

:05:16.:05:18.

William Storrar, seasoned campaigner in bringing politics to

:05:18.:05:21.

the people. William Storrar, academic and

:05:21.:05:28.

Church of Scotland minister, has flown in from America where he is

:05:28.:05:30.

the directors of the Princeton Center of Theological Enquiry. His

:05:30.:05:38.

message to the audience is that the All player-power to challenge

:05:38.:05:44.

corrupt capitalism s public spirit. He cites their attitude of three

:05:44.:05:49.

men in particular. Magnus Magnusson, because he had the same courteous

:05:49.:05:56.

respect for everyone. The trade unionist Campbell Christian who

:05:56.:06:05.

knew how to charm, captivate misfits. And Sir Neil McCormick who

:06:05.:06:10.

threw his intellect and generosity of character transformed the

:06:10.:06:14.

Scottish public sphere. And Professor William Storrar is here

:06:14.:06:20.

with me this afternoon. You were playing to a packed

:06:20.:06:25.

audience? It was very exciting. The lady next door it was talking about

:06:25.:06:35.
:06:35.:06:38.

six in her book and we were talking about Scotland. -- sex. You were

:06:38.:06:41.

talking about the contribution that was made by the men we have just

:06:41.:06:45.

seen. What is happening now that was different when you were out on

:06:45.:06:50.

the campaign trail to get a parliament for Scotland? I think

:06:51.:06:55.

these are three remarkable Scots were the last of a generation of

:06:55.:07:00.

politics where you work to through the big institutions, the BBC, the

:07:00.:07:06.

STUC, that universities to lead a public debate. I think that now the

:07:06.:07:10.

public life and the public spirit has migrated into all sorts of

:07:10.:07:18.

initiatives. People who care about the environment, women's networks,

:07:18.:07:24.

and I think we have got to be Advent a new kind of public

:07:24.:07:27.

politics for ordinary citizens three those kind of met works a

:07:27.:07:37.

rather than the big names. -- networks. How does that filter

:07:37.:07:43.

through into traditional political avenues? We think how we can make

:07:43.:07:49.

an impact on the politicians. Another great Scot, Steven Maxwell,

:07:49.:07:52.

a brilliant thinker about citizenship and Scotland said that

:07:52.:07:56.

you cannot have a healthier Holyrood unless you have a health a

:07:56.:08:06.
:08:06.:08:11.

civil society around it. The politicians, to do their job,

:08:11.:08:17.

whatever happens after the vote, we need and a healthy, active group of

:08:17.:08:21.

citizens who are having their own debate about the kind of Scotland

:08:21.:08:25.

we want to live in. It is interesting what will happen after

:08:25.:08:29.

that vote. You have said in your lecture that we need to know how to

:08:29.:08:33.

carry ourselves in public. The world is watching and waiting. Not

:08:33.:08:38.

so much to see the outcome of the board, but to see how we conduct

:08:38.:08:45.

ourselves in public. Do you have concerned that if the court -- to

:08:45.:08:49.

do you have concerns that if the tone of the debate is no right and

:08:49.:08:55.

respect for, it will poison the well? Absolutely. How we start is

:08:55.:09:03.

how we finish. If it we demonise ll the other side -- if we demonise

:09:03.:09:08.

the other side as the end of the, we have already lost the vote. The

:09:08.:09:13.

day after the vote, we will still be living in Scotland and working

:09:13.:09:23.
:09:23.:09:24.

for the common good. How we conduct ourselves and a -- as an Asian will

:09:24.:09:32.

determine how we will live together and work together as a nation.

:09:32.:09:35.

There are initiatives around the world to set up new democracies

:09:35.:09:41.

were people have a stake and they want to see Scotland show the way,

:09:41.:09:46.

whatever the result of the referendum. Do you think it will be

:09:46.:09:54.

easier to conduct the right to beat out in the communities and rather

:09:54.:10:04.
:10:04.:10:08.

than in the tribal environment a Politics? Absolutely. We went out

:10:08.:10:16.

in a minibus with a group of Scottish writers and poets and we

:10:16.:10:20.

went to Aberdeenshire, down to Lesmahagow, outside the central

:10:20.:10:27.

belt, into town halls and church halls, and hundreds of ordinary

:10:27.:10:32.

citizens took part in a wonderfully rich of debate about what kind of

:10:32.:10:42.
:10:42.:10:46.

Scotland we were hoping for. We must do the same again. I hope that

:10:46.:10:50.

communities will well, its back for the debate. You will be back on the

:10:50.:11:00.
:11:00.:11:01.

bus? Absolutely. I hope this time that we will have some of the

:11:01.:11:08.

fabulous of young women in Scotland, who are absolutely active citizens.

:11:08.:11:16.

And opposing viewpoints as well? absolutely. The group Women for

:11:16.:11:19.

Independence launches today. It's not officially part of the Yes

:11:19.:11:21.

Scotland Campaign but runs alongside it. We'll speak to one of

:11:21.:11:24.

the organisers in just a second. But first Hayley Jarvis has been

:11:24.:11:27.

asking in an age of equality if female voters really need special

:11:27.:11:34.

attention? Flags at the pro-independence rally

:11:34.:11:40.

in Edinburgh last weekend. Does the referendum debate need to be

:11:40.:11:50.
:11:50.:11:55.

tailored towards the female vote? A Why are women less likely to have

:11:55.:12:00.

made up their minds? It is not to do with depth of feelings of

:12:00.:12:04.

national identity. There is no evidence of that at all. There is a

:12:04.:12:10.

marked difference between men and women been how confident they feel

:12:10.:12:17.

about independence. It is central to the debate as far as women are

:12:17.:12:22.

concerned, they are more risk- averse, more worried about the

:12:22.:12:30.

prospect of independence. How will the Budget affect women in Scotland.

:12:30.:12:40.
:12:40.:12:41.

She feels that issues that affect remember voters have been sidelined.

:12:41.:12:45.

We need to talk less about whether we are going to be in the tour and

:12:45.:12:55.
:12:55.:12:57.

talk about what we are going to do about the pick up. -- in NATO.

:12:57.:13:00.

is long gone that women were overlooked because they were women

:13:00.:13:05.

and did not know about these things. For most women, they would rather

:13:05.:13:09.

be where the politics are at. That is where the decisions are a bit.

:13:09.:13:14.

What women have a greater voice with engaging with their two main

:13:14.:13:23.

campaign groups? The launch is in full flow at the

:13:23.:13:26.

moment but the former SSP MSP, Carolyn Leckie has nipped outside

:13:26.:13:33.

to join us. Do women identify it simply as

:13:33.:13:42.

women? Not simply as women. I think people's identities are diverse and

:13:42.:13:47.

complex. That is why be formed because women are not uniform. But

:13:47.:13:52.

we do not bring that women's voices had been heard up to now. We want

:13:52.:13:59.

to listen to what their views are, their ideals and aspirations before

:13:59.:14:06.

we do anything. We think that the independence debate so far has been

:14:06.:14:09.

very male dominated at as take him on the tone of a boxing match

:14:09.:14:17.

already. We hope to seat a burgeoning of democracy a month's

:14:17.:14:23.

remember. Women have a long history of self organising. They want to

:14:23.:14:28.

make sure that our voices are heard. We are not waiting for permission

:14:28.:14:38.
:14:38.:14:39.

to be heard or asking to be invited to be heard. You might be going on

:14:39.:14:42.

this bus with William Storrar? Possibly. We do not know where this

:14:42.:14:48.

will take us. The women who have come together a very diverse. We

:14:48.:14:52.

support independence. But what kind of Scotland B one-11, we want to

:14:52.:15:01.

create a spade for women to him -- what kind of Scotland we wanted to

:15:01.:15:10.

live in, we want to create a space of four women to discuss that.

:15:10.:15:17.

are almost out of time. You are a campaigning group. Would there have

:15:17.:15:21.

been met in creating a women only forum where the debate could be

:15:21.:15:27.

created in a manner that you would consider more constructive and for

:15:27.:15:33.

all parties? And we would participate in anything with any

:15:33.:15:37.

groups in discussion. We want to approach it with a different tone

:15:37.:15:43.

and more respectful and listen to people. Including remember,

:15:43.:15:53.
:15:53.:15:55.

particularly who do not support independence. -- including women. I

:15:55.:16:01.

think they will learn a lot through that process.

:16:01.:16:06.

Thank you for that. Now in a moment, we'll be

:16:06.:16:09.

discussing the big events coming up this week, but first, let's take a

:16:09.:16:19.
:16:19.:16:23.

look back at the Week in Sixty Remarkable scenes followed severe

:16:23.:16:31.

rainstorms. A budget moment for the pro-union better together campaign

:16:31.:16:39.

when a JK Rowling kid down in favour of the Union. We are in a

:16:39.:16:49.
:16:49.:16:52.

stable, sound position. I didn't want to stabilise that.

:16:52.:16:58.

MSP express their horror at the level of inequality of care

:16:58.:17:08.
:17:08.:17:08.

experienced by its travellers. Europe was checking the small print

:17:08.:17:18.
:17:18.:17:32.

And now it's time to take a look at the week ahead.

:17:32.:17:35.

And joining me this week are the Spectator blogger Alex Massie and

:17:35.:17:41.

the journalist Anna Burnside. What will be happening at the

:17:41.:17:48.

Labour Party conference? It looks like what ever the relationship

:17:48.:17:52.

with the unions, if they get into the unions, then they are in the

:17:52.:18:01.

unions' pocket. It is hard to see who is going to come well out of

:18:01.:18:09.

this. McCluskey wants all the playwrights out will stop --

:18:09.:18:19.
:18:19.:18:19.

playwrights -- Billy Wrights out. It is hard to see how are Ed

:18:19.:18:26.

Miliband well, out of this. I agree entirely. It cannot end well. Which

:18:26.:18:31.

is quite entertaining for everyone else. Whoever pays the piper calls

:18:31.:18:37.

of the two. For as long as the Labour Party is 60% funded by the

:18:37.:18:45.

unions, it is not unreasonable for the unions to wish to have an

:18:45.:18:49.

influence on Labour Party policy. That causes a certain amount of

:18:49.:18:54.

difficulty for Ed Miliband given that union membership is lower now

:18:55.:19:02.

than it ever has been. The Labour Party is trying to run away from

:19:02.:19:06.

Tony Blair as it possibly can add playwright has become a term of

:19:06.:19:16.
:19:16.:19:22.

abuse, -- Blairite. Ed Balls has been saying that an

:19:22.:19:28.

incoming Labour government would be ruthless on budgets, but they are

:19:28.:19:38.
:19:38.:19:50.

trying to Saughton a line -- soften. They are trying to manoeuvre

:19:50.:19:53.

Liberal Democrats out of the coalition. Going along with the

:19:53.:20:03.
:20:03.:20:03.

mansion tax is an obvious attempt to put a wedge in there. I thought

:20:03.:20:09.

that was quite interesting. If we look back at what has happened in

:20:09.:20:14.

Scotland over the past week. Johann Lamont's statements about universal

:20:14.:20:20.

benefit. How do you think it was presented? I thought it was an

:20:20.:20:24.

interesting repudiation of the last 50 Years of the Scottish Labour

:20:24.:20:30.

party's approach to politics which has been essentially to be in an

:20:30.:20:33.

auction with their SNP to dole out as many sweeties to the electorate

:20:33.:20:40.

as possible. In a normal, go on a political culture, the notion that

:20:40.:20:44.

you might have to raise taxes is not so controversial. But in

:20:44.:20:54.

Scotland, this is a great betrayal. It is a depressing commentary on

:20:54.:21:00.

public life in this country. Aggregate was a mistake to get

:21:00.:21:03.

trapped in the relatively trivial things of free prescriptions, a

:21:03.:21:09.

free bus passes. Those are not actually major items of expenditure.

:21:09.:21:13.

What was much more interesting was their attack on the council tax

:21:13.:21:18.

freeze which is a benefit for wealthy Scots at the expense, to

:21:18.:21:24.

some extent, of poorer Scots. Particularly those who are more

:21:24.:21:28.

dependent on council services. The wealthy 10 not to rely on council

:21:28.:21:35.

services as much as the poor. -- tend not to rely. A council tax

:21:35.:21:45.

free, there were a useful it is, does have an impact. For a Labour

:21:45.:21:55.
:21:55.:21:57.

politician to say we need to redistribute wealth, do you think

:21:57.:22:06.

that comes across yet? How are people hearing this? That is the

:22:06.:22:09.

most obvious thing for everyone to sit. It is terrible that these rich

:22:09.:22:14.

people are getting these benefits, but obviously, I deserve education

:22:14.:22:19.

for my children and somebody to look after my mother. People have

:22:19.:22:29.
:22:29.:22:30.

called her brave and bold, with inverted commas hovering in the air.

:22:30.:22:35.

In a grown-up world, the possibly would not have to have that debate.

:22:35.:22:43.

But politics is not like that. It is hard to see how people can sort

:22:43.:22:47.

out from all the fuss there has been over this announcement that

:22:47.:22:54.

actually come of the subtle things she was the end, with all the mud

:22:54.:23:04.
:23:04.:23:05.

slinging... It is an open goal. You cannot blame everybody for having a

:23:05.:23:11.

Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser.


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