07/10/2012 Sunday Politics Scotland


07/10/2012

Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser with political news including defence secretary Philip Hammond from the Conservative Party Conference and shadow foreign secretary Douglas Alexander.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 07/10/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Watch out Birmingham, Conservatives are coming. To all scruple asked

:00:46.:00:51.

what people really think up the party and the Prime Minister. --

:00:51.:01:01.
:01:01.:01:05.

our poll will last. I still think he is a bit aloof. What about the

:01:05.:01:09.

party faithful? We will ask the Defence Secretary about a state of

:01:10.:01:15.

the party. And Ed Miliband made his party happy, but what about the

:01:15.:01:25.

voters? We last-day shadow Foreign Secretary. And here in Scotland,

:01:25.:01:28.

could the train wreck that is the west coast rail franchise derail

:01:28.:01:30.

future Scotrail bids? We'll go live to the Conservative conference and

:01:30.:01:40.
:01:40.:01:41.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1912 seconds

:01:41.:33:33.

We opened up a franchise system so that there would be more

:33:33.:33:38.

flexibility, its flexibility that we believe passengers wanted. The

:33:38.:33:43.

problems are not in the design or specification, there in the

:33:43.:33:53.
:33:53.:33:54.

Is it not time that ministers took some... Up the franchise system is

:33:54.:34:04.
:34:04.:34:04.

not discredited then why are they are two investigations into?

:34:04.:34:08.

understanding is that the investigations and into the process

:34:08.:34:16.

that was used, the methodology, used to evaluate. I have not heard

:34:16.:34:21.

anything to suggest that the change in the franchise specifications,

:34:21.:34:25.

the way in which the franchises are designed, has been challenged by

:34:25.:34:33.

these reviews. The former Director General of train-operating

:34:33.:34:41.

companies calls it a shame four- line. -- shameful. Should ministers

:34:41.:34:49.

take responsibility for a shambles? To ministers obviously take over

:34:49.:34:52.

all responsibility for what happens in their apartment but we have

:34:52.:34:56.

moved on from the days when ministers were expected to manage

:34:56.:35:02.

every detail of the work in their apartment. They have to hold their

:35:02.:35:08.

civil servants to account. Ask questions. Of course they do. But

:35:08.:35:18.
:35:18.:35:23.

they cant be involved in the -- in every last aspect. Thank you, Mr

:35:23.:35:32.

Hammond. What do you make of that? That will not have been

:35:32.:35:42.
:35:42.:35:42.

uncomfortable viewing for Greening. He did not complete the sentence

:35:42.:35:47.

after saying he was shown the pictures anonymously. Unlike

:35:47.:35:52.

Justene Greening, who clearly did not keep as close an eye as he

:35:52.:35:59.

should have done. I am glad you gave him a real grilling. The

:35:59.:36:05.

impression of incompetence has been created by this Government. Over

:36:05.:36:09.

and again we get these types of major failures. But Conservatives

:36:10.:36:13.

can speak about whatever they like at their conference but unless they

:36:13.:36:18.

repair the impression of incompetence or policy, they will

:36:18.:36:25.

not get boats. Mr Hammond was responsible for the franchise

:36:25.:36:32.

system and it has not worked. and I agree that greening is in an

:36:32.:36:37.

even more difficult position. I have never bought into the idea

:36:37.:36:42.

that civil servants are beyond criticism but it is impossible to

:36:42.:36:50.

conceive of the situation without ministerial involvement. You are

:36:50.:37:00.
:37:00.:37:01.

Welcome to Sunday politics Scotland. Our politicians that best people to

:37:01.:37:06.

prioritise and target universal benefits? The former Auditor

:37:06.:37:14.

General says not necessarily. And the warning from an academic of

:37:14.:37:22.

unintended consequences for rape victims. I am concerned this will

:37:22.:37:25.

lead to more acquittals. That Judy's will put the complainant and

:37:25.:37:33.

pink, she was drinking, wore revealing clothing. The Scottish

:37:33.:37:37.

Greens have voted to join the campaign for Scottish independence.

:37:37.:37:42.

And calls for the Government to change the way it awards rail

:37:42.:37:45.

franchises after the decision to scrap the West Coast Main Line

:37:45.:37:53.

Should the taxpayer money be spent and public services without charge?

:37:53.:37:58.

Or should it be targeted for those most in need? That debate has just

:37:58.:38:04.

taken place at the heart of Scottish politics and the former

:38:04.:38:08.

Auditor-General, Robert Black, has said that Holyrood's spending

:38:09.:38:15.

commitments have become unsustainable. For 12 years he was

:38:15.:38:20.

the top public spending watchdog official. He has recently retired

:38:20.:38:25.

and free to talk candidly. He is questioning whether it is

:38:25.:38:29.

sustainable to keep providing a range of public services to

:38:29.:38:32.

everybody without charge. And even if it is, is that the most

:38:32.:38:40.

effective use of public funds? affordability must be questioned.

:38:40.:38:46.

Every round on three services as a PoW and that is not there for other

:38:46.:38:56.
:38:56.:39:00.

things. -- every pound. It sparked a heated debate. Talks about

:39:00.:39:09.

securing public services and three everything. But he has already

:39:09.:39:17.

brought into �0.7 billion worth of cuts. Robert Black says that

:39:17.:39:23.

promises were not properly costed and in the menials budgets should

:39:23.:39:33.
:39:33.:39:35.

be cuts. For instance, travel fare concessions rising towards �0.5

:39:35.:39:39.

billion per year. The NHS Ellis double what it was a decade ago.

:39:39.:39:49.

The cost of care of elderly rises annually. Whether Scotland votes

:39:49.:39:55.

for independence or not these spending pressures will not go away.

:39:55.:40:01.

Mr Black also asked, his Holyrood costing too many -- passing too

:40:01.:40:10.

many on costed laws? And why do we have such a clutter of public

:40:10.:40:15.

bodies and over-complex partnerships? Do we really neat 32

:40:15.:40:19.

councils? He says that he speaks for other public sector leaders who

:40:20.:40:29.
:40:30.:40:31.

I am joined by the former health minister and a representative from

:40:31.:40:38.

the Scottish Council up all up -- voluntary -- the Scottish Council

:40:38.:40:43.

voluntary organisations. Robert Black is saying that it ever party

:40:43.:40:51.

is in power, some things are just not functioning. It is amusing how

:40:51.:40:54.

much a couple of speeches have blown open a debate that should

:40:54.:41:00.

have been happening for their 13 years. And a real world a great

:41:01.:41:05.

many people asking why politicians have not been having a more

:41:05.:41:11.

measured debate about affordability, priorities. And why this assumption

:41:11.:41:16.

that if you throw lots of money, government money, at a problem, it

:41:16.:41:20.

will fix it? We have 13 years of devolution under our belt and

:41:20.:41:24.

should be asking hard questions about the limitations of the

:41:24.:41:34.

decision-making during that period. Why has that not happened?

:41:34.:41:38.

reaction of labour to the SNP speech was interpreted as Labour

:41:38.:41:42.

imposing Conservative cuts. There was no consideration of long-term

:41:42.:41:47.

implications. Susan is correct, the elephant in the financial room has

:41:47.:41:53.

been universal benefits. Middle- class benefits. The very poorest in

:41:53.:41:57.

our communities are not benefiting from universal services. Poverty

:41:57.:42:02.

and inequality has increased since the Scottish Parliament came in. So

:42:02.:42:06.

people are not part of that process. And a lot of people don't gain from

:42:06.:42:13.

universal services. I do not want to dwell on this but lots of these

:42:13.:42:18.

benefits came in under Labour. Rock lack has argued that they were not

:42:18.:42:22.

costed probably. How do you frame their conversation in a way that

:42:22.:42:26.

does not allow your opponents to say you have just trying to deprive

:42:26.:42:36.
:42:36.:42:37.

people in need? There is a responsibility that it expands over

:42:37.:42:40.

the whole the Holyrood bubble, including commentators and the

:42:40.:42:46.

media. I hear people saying, that is just politics, it has got to be

:42:46.:42:50.

this way. We did not say that when the banks went wrong. We did not

:42:51.:42:54.

say that when there were questions about the media, we happily a

:42:54.:42:59.

person inquiry. We should shine a light on how hour politics

:42:59.:43:04.

functions. Part of the dynamics during a debate in this country is

:43:04.:43:09.

the fear that it will be perceived as an electoral liability to speak

:43:09.:43:14.

honestly and openly, or you will get some headlines screaming at you

:43:14.:43:19.

from a newspaper. But we spent a long time creating an institution

:43:20.:43:25.

in Edinburgh that was meant to be open to ideas. We have not got that

:43:25.:43:34.

and that is a very serious issue. Robert Black said that MSPs do not

:43:34.:43:38.

understand we the voluntary and private sectors operate and risk

:43:38.:43:44.

cutting funds from organisations doing a good job. Not just MSPs but

:43:44.:43:54.
:43:54.:43:55.

councillors. I imagine you think that is fair comment. I think it is.

:43:55.:43:59.

People in communities can make decisions. It links to your

:43:59.:44:04.

question, when you involve people in designing services and making

:44:04.:44:08.

decisions about the services and priorities they want, then actually

:44:08.:44:13.

we can make the hard choices about budgets and universal services.

:44:13.:44:18.

About what we need to seek to sustain communities. The fact is,

:44:18.:44:23.

that has not happened and there as a distinct lack of understanding

:44:23.:44:29.

about the way the charity and private sectors operate. In the

:44:30.:44:37.

third sector we're still time to procure people services. -- trying.

:44:38.:44:42.

So the whole system needs a culture change. You can have the best

:44:42.:44:46.

legislation in the world but it is what happens in practice at a local

:44:46.:44:51.

level, in terms of implementing legislation, if that is key for

:44:51.:45:01.
:45:01.:45:03.

business and the voluntary sector. We needed to have more space.

:45:03.:45:09.

Adjacent to the political process. Yet that can still influence it, a

:45:09.:45:14.

bit more like and do it less heat around issues. But we have to be

:45:14.:45:18.

careful that we do not let the political parties off the hook.

:45:18.:45:23.

There had been a lot of commissions, a lot of data has been amassed

:45:23.:45:28.

around public spending. An independent financial review was

:45:28.:45:31.

published two years ago and it is only now we're starting to talk

:45:31.:45:40.

about some of the things raised. The former Auditor General also

:45:40.:45:44.

said that spending pressures will continue regardless of how the

:45:44.:45:47.

independence referendum goes. And he said we cannot wait for the

:45:47.:45:55.

debate. Do you agree? I do, because it is about the future of Scotland

:45:55.:45:59.

and what we can afford in terms of public services. The problem of

:45:59.:46:04.

this debate is we're having it in the context of a block grant, and

:46:04.:46:10.

not in terms of a progressive taxation system for Scotland.

:46:10.:46:15.

People seem to want Scandinavian levels of public services and pay

:46:15.:46:20.

American levels of taxation. That is frankly unaffordable. We need a

:46:20.:46:25.

full and frank debate. I agree with Susan, needed better space, but

:46:25.:46:34.

frankly, Commission is not the way forward. If it is about tax-raising,

:46:34.:46:39.

tax spending powers, to recover level, would that forced a more

:46:39.:46:47.

mature debate? I think the fact that we have had a spending only

:46:47.:46:51.

Parliament in place has not helped, it has been too easy for every

:46:51.:46:55.

party to say that they will spend more than the other lot. That has

:46:55.:47:03.

got to stop. But the whole question of taxation is not the only one at

:47:03.:47:06.

least here. We need to move away from talking about a affordability

:47:06.:47:11.

and how much money we have and move and took priorities and what would

:47:11.:47:17.

make a difference. The other thing we have learned over the years is

:47:17.:47:21.

that a lot of multi- million-pound government back policies have not

:47:21.:47:27.

done up in the changes in this country that we intended. My

:47:27.:47:32.

experience is that people outside of the political poll are up for

:47:32.:47:41.

that conversation much more so than As civil servants to prepare to

:47:41.:47:47.

depend a look decision to hand the West Coast Main Line franchise to

:47:47.:47:50.

FirstGroup the need a critical discovery, mistakes had been made

:47:50.:47:55.

and the minister had to pull the plug. The whole do battle has

:47:56.:47:59.

proved embarrassing and raised questions about compensate of the

:47:59.:48:09.
:48:09.:48:13.

Government. -- good tackle. -- debacle. We are well used to delays

:48:13.:48:17.

on a British Railways. But not detained or cancellation we saw

:48:17.:48:22.

this week. The UK Government had to concede there were serious flaws in

:48:22.:48:28.

the way the West Coast franchise had been a lot at. The put back

:48:28.:48:33.

FirstGroup had been seriously miscalculated. Two investigations

:48:33.:48:38.

have been ordered. One will look at what went wrong with the West Coast

:48:38.:48:42.

franchise, the other will look at the wider franchise programme.

:48:42.:48:46.

There is now concern that the ScotRail franchise could be put

:48:46.:48:55.

back. It is due for renewal in 2014. There could be a delay at the

:48:55.:48:59.

inquiry does not give us answers to the questions being asked at the

:48:59.:49:06.

moment. It could be the case that not just ScotRail but many

:49:06.:49:13.

franchises across the UK could be delayed. Peps transport Scotland

:49:13.:49:21.

say the timetable will not slide. The process is led by an expert

:49:21.:49:29.

team who are drawing an external expertise and and when required.

:49:29.:49:34.

Passengers are being reassume that when Virgin's franchise ends,

:49:34.:49:41.

services will still run. I am extremely angry and apologetic. We

:49:41.:49:49.

must get to the bottom of it. will cost taxpayers �100 million.

:49:49.:49:54.

As the franchise system is scrutinised aviation policy is also

:49:54.:49:59.

being questioned. Could a her roots are critical for Scottish financial

:49:59.:50:03.

health. His concern businesses are being strangled by a lack of

:50:03.:50:13.
:50:13.:50:22.

Services at Heathrow will be given over to a longer haul flight

:50:23.:50:27.

overseas. The Government has postponed a decision on Heathrow's

:50:27.:50:32.

third runway until after the 2015 election. Meanwhile, passengers are

:50:32.:50:36.

not impressed at the amount of tax they have to pay for flights.

:50:36.:50:41.

Airlines and travel agents want a review of air passenger duty.

:50:42.:50:47.

an expensive tax for outbound and inbound travellers. Our concern is

:50:47.:50:51.

the inequality of it, trying to dispense with many people being hit

:50:51.:51:01.

twice. The UK Government has been on a difficult journey this week.

:51:01.:51:03.

Passengers and business would smooth and efficient links. They

:51:03.:51:09.

demand ministers and officials delivered just that.

:51:09.:51:12.

Listing to that at the Conservative Party conference is the Scottish

:51:12.:51:19.

Cup -- Scotland Office Minister and MP David Mundell. Thank you for

:51:19.:51:24.

joining us. With the West Coast rail fiasco, the Transport Minister

:51:24.:51:28.

says it was deeply regrettable and unacceptable. How would you

:51:28.:51:35.

describe it? It was completely unacceptable. It was not followed

:51:35.:51:39.

in the procedure that it should have been. That is why there are

:51:39.:51:43.

two inquiries into it. The West Coast Main Line is a very important

:51:43.:51:46.

route, not just for my own constituency and Scotland, but for

:51:46.:51:50.

the whole of the United Kingdom. When we go through these

:51:50.:51:56.

complicated procedures, they have to be absolutely in order. The

:51:56.:52:03.

Government has put its hand up. Richard Branson said that he was

:52:03.:52:06.

not pleased with the way it had been done but that he was pleased

:52:06.:52:10.

with the honesty of the governor's approach in think it was wrong and

:52:10.:52:15.

unacceptable. The Government has not put its hand at, but simply

:52:15.:52:19.

blamed the Civil Service, which is a shabby thing to do. It used to be

:52:19.:52:25.

ministers who would take it on the chin and admit it was their fault.

:52:25.:52:30.

This is a very complicated and detailed process. What is clear is

:52:30.:52:34.

that it was some of the calculations in that process that

:52:34.:52:43.

were at fault in terms of getting the wrong assessment. Different

:52:43.:52:46.

bidders were given different information, which clearly is

:52:46.:52:50.

completely unacceptable. It is important that we have these

:52:50.:52:56.

reviews so that we know exactly what did go wrong and learn from

:52:56.:53:00.

that and get ahead and get the franchise awarded, either to the

:53:00.:53:05.

existing holder or to a new bidder, because the West Coast Main Line is

:53:05.:53:09.

extremely important for Scotland and the United Kingdom, and we

:53:09.:53:14.

wanted working as effectively as possible. What assurances can you

:53:14.:53:22.

give that this will not affect the ScotRail franchise bid?

:53:22.:53:26.

There is no reason to suggest it would affect the ScotRail franchise.

:53:26.:53:30.

You have heard that in your package. The benefit of the ScotRail

:53:30.:53:35.

franchise is that it is a very discreet franchise because it

:53:35.:53:41.

essentially covers the Scottish geography. Yes, but it is the model

:53:41.:53:46.

that is the problem. The Government is now saying that it could take a

:53:46.:53:49.

year to work out an appropriate franchising model for this. They

:53:49.:53:55.

could be delays on that. Can you give a guarantee that the 2014

:53:55.:53:58.

deadline will not be affected? not have any reason to think at

:53:58.:54:04.

this time that it will be affected. The Scottish Government themselves

:54:04.:54:07.

and Transport Scotland, who you have just spoken to, seemed very

:54:07.:54:10.

confident they will be able to do it, and they do not think that

:54:10.:54:14.

anything that will come out of this review will impact to delay the

:54:14.:54:19.

ScotRail franchise. You may have got it right now when saying that

:54:19.:54:25.

you will review it, but UK matter that from a bad place. You did but

:54:25.:54:28.

actually initiate this yourself and you had no concerns ourselves, and

:54:28.:54:32.

it was only when Richard Branson said it would be a judicial review.

:54:33.:54:37.

Your conference this week is about reassuring voters that you are a

:54:37.:54:41.

competent government, but this itself, even if you do not add in

:54:41.:54:47.

claims about the economy, hardly speaks to competent governments.

:54:47.:54:52.

Nobody is suggesting that this was a good thing. We have put our hands

:54:52.:54:55.

up and said it was unacceptable. We have said that we will take forward

:54:55.:55:01.

a review of it. It is not the first time that there has been a serious

:55:01.:55:05.

issue with the rail network. Under the last Labour government, the

:55:05.:55:09.

East work French-led -- the East Coast network franchise collapsed.

:55:09.:55:12.

These things happen. Peopling government have to take them in

:55:12.:55:20.

their stride, move Ford and learn from this experience is. Let's look

:55:20.:55:24.

at some stories in the papers today. The Sunday Telegraph has the story

:55:24.:55:30.

that the Prime Minister is promising a for council tax freeze.

:55:30.:55:36.

On BBC today, he spoke about that as well. That is a fantastic idea

:55:36.:55:41.

that your colleagues in Scotland should be rushing to embrace?

:55:42.:55:48.

you know and your viewers know is that they -- is that issues like

:55:48.:55:52.

council tax are devolved matters in Scotland, and therefore will be

:55:52.:55:58.

decided in Scotland. The council tax freeze as is being set out, it

:55:58.:56:01.

is up to the Scottish Government whether or not that continues. I

:56:01.:56:06.

welcome the debate that Johann Lamont has instigated in Scotland

:56:06.:56:09.

about different measures in Scotland. I think it will move

:56:09.:56:13.

forward the political debate. That debate is already happening in

:56:13.:56:16.

England in terms of what we can afford against the resources we

:56:16.:56:19.

have, and if we move forward and have that debate in Scotland,

:56:19.:56:23.

Scottish politics will take a step forward. Having had the debate,

:56:23.:56:28.

David Cameron says the council tax freezes a very useful thing to do

:56:28.:56:35.

for people on lower incomes. Isn't the principle just the same? It is

:56:35.:56:41.

a debate to be had in Scotland on a devolved issue. We supported the

:56:42.:56:45.

council tax freeze as it has been applied in Scotland, because it has

:56:45.:56:51.

helped those on low incomes. There is a debate to be had in Scotland

:56:51.:56:55.

in relation to the use of resources that we have available and what is

:56:55.:56:59.

the best use of those resources. I welcome that debate in Scotland,

:56:59.:57:02.

because in the past, the Conservatives tried to take that

:57:02.:57:09.

debate forward and were met with a wall of negativity. Other parties

:57:09.:57:12.

in Scotland are now waking up to the fact that there is a limited

:57:12.:57:16.

amount of money and you have to make decisions about how to deploy

:57:16.:57:19.

a those resources. I hope to see those debates happening in the

:57:19.:57:25.

Scottish Parliament. From another newspaper article today, you are

:57:25.:57:31.

quoted in Scotland on Sunday saying the SNP referendum plan well let

:57:31.:57:36.

teenagers down, because you are saying 16 and 17 year-olds would

:57:36.:57:39.

have to have a separate register which could be difficult to

:57:39.:57:43.

implement, and therefore it is not fair for those who would not be

:57:43.:57:47.

able to take part in the independence referendum. Should be

:57:47.:57:54.

not just see that as a clear steer that this is of the table now?

:57:54.:57:59.

don't think so. We are looking to reach agreement with the Scottish

:57:59.:58:03.

Government in the near future on the basis that the referendum can

:58:03.:58:07.

go ahead. We have set from the start, David Cameron has been very

:58:07.:58:13.

clear that he was willing to facilitate the referendum according

:58:13.:58:18.

to the SNP mandate in be manifesto last year. We have been working

:58:18.:58:23.

closely with them. There have been detailed negotiations which I have

:58:23.:58:28.

been involved in. We are close to getting in a -- agreement on the

:58:28.:58:34.

referendum taking place. 16 and 17 year-olds is one of the issues. The

:58:34.:58:40.

SNP position has been that they would give the vote to people who

:58:40.:58:45.

were on the electoral register. That means that not all teenagers

:58:45.:58:49.

would get the vote. That is a matter for them to explain to those

:58:49.:58:53.

teenagers in Scotland as to why they have decided to go down that

:58:53.:58:58.

route. I still don't support 16 and 17 year-olds voting, because I do

:58:58.:59:02.

not think you should change the franchise for a particular election.

:59:02.:59:06.

Let me ask you, when we have spoken about the debate which has been

:59:06.:59:09.

raised in Scotland about universal benefits, do you think the way it

:59:09.:59:12.

has been framed at the moment is the most constructive way to bring

:59:12.:59:19.

it forward? I think it is very helpful that we have that debate.

:59:19.:59:24.

We cannot continue in Scotland to pretend that everything can be free

:59:24.:59:29.

for everybody. But his the something for nothing tag fair or

:59:29.:59:38.

not? I think what is clear is that there are consequences to decisions.

:59:38.:59:41.

The consequences I see in my own constituency of free higher

:59:41.:59:45.

education is that there are Colleges suffering. If people make

:59:45.:59:50.

decisions that money will be spent in one area, they have to stand up

:59:50.:59:53.

and be prepared to accept the consequences in other areas, and we

:59:53.:59:58.

have not had that in Scotland. We have had an approach where

:59:58.:00:01.

everybody has joined in a communal view that everything can be for

:00:01.:00:08.

nothing. It can't. David Mundell, thank you very much.

:00:08.:00:18.
:00:18.:00:20.

And now we can have a catch up with A church service has taken place in

:00:20.:00:23.

Machynlleth this morning to remember the missing five year-old

:00:23.:00:27.

April Jones. She was a do to close to her family's home last Monday

:00:27.:00:33.

evening. A 46-year-old man, Mark Bridger, has been charged with her

:00:34.:00:41.

abduction and murder. In the warm October sunshine, they

:00:41.:00:48.

came in their hundreds. Virtually a whole town, walking quietly deep in

:00:48.:00:58.
:00:58.:01:02.

Then into the church for a special service for April. A poem for her

:01:02.:01:11.

mother in praise of motherhood. she is a sadness dealer, a cut knee

:01:12.:01:21.
:01:22.:01:25.

he lair, had me tighter wrongness writer, Kerouac and chocolates --

:01:25.:01:30.

carer and chocolate Sheriff. While... Sometimes.

:01:30.:01:40.
:01:40.:01:41.

Then the Lord's Prayer, into languages, but with one message.

:01:41.:01:46.

The service was relayed by speakers to those outside. Deep down, they

:01:46.:01:49.

know April is not coming back, but many here are still praying for a

:01:50.:01:56.

miracle. As the Conservative Party

:01:56.:01:59.

conference gets under way in Birmingham this afternoon, the

:01:59.:02:02.

Prime Minister has confirmed the Government needs to find more in

:02:02.:02:08.

welfare cuts by the next election. He said the rich will also has --

:02:08.:02:12.

the rich will have to pay more to help reduce the deficit. But he has

:02:12.:02:16.

rejected demands for a mansion tax on properties over �2 million a.

:02:16.:02:21.

I do not believe that we should be a country where if you work hard

:02:21.:02:25.

and saved and buy a house and to pay the mortgage and invested it, I

:02:25.:02:28.

don't want to be a country that comes after you every year with a

:02:29.:02:33.

massive tax, so that is not going to happen.

:02:33.:02:38.

We can get more on this from our political correspondent who is at

:02:38.:02:41.

the Conservative conference in Birmingham this lunch time. The

:02:41.:02:48.

Prime Minister is very clear that that -- that there is still a lot

:02:48.:02:51.

to be done to reduce the deficit. Yes, and he made it clear several

:02:51.:02:55.

times that he wants the rich to pay their share, but he did not spell

:02:55.:03:00.

out what he thinks that means. He is not going to take up the Liberal

:03:00.:03:04.

Democrat idea of a mansion tax. He does not like the idea of new

:03:04.:03:11.

council tax banding is either a. We have had a flurry of announcements

:03:11.:03:16.

today about capping rail fares. All that begs the question of where

:03:16.:03:19.

he's going to find the money. He has made it clear that the bid

:03:19.:03:22.

target is the welfare budget, which means more cuts to benefits,

:03:22.:03:25.

something that will be difficult and controversial when people are

:03:25.:03:29.

already struggling. Thank you very much.

:03:29.:03:34.

That is all the news for now. There is more on BBC One at 6:30pm this

:03:34.:03:42.

evening. Good afternoon. Scotland's Health

:03:42.:03:45.

Secretary has said that the 24 week limit for terminating pregnancies

:03:45.:03:51.

should be reduced. Speaking to Scotland on Sunday, Alex Neil said

:03:51.:03:54.

that legislation should be looked at in an independent Scotland, but

:03:54.:03:57.

made it clear that his views were personal.

:03:57.:04:03.

Jeremy Hunt has backed a reduction from the current 24 weeks to 12. Mr

:04:03.:04:06.

Neil was quoted as saying that there was a case for reduction, but

:04:06.:04:09.

that he did not know if 12 weeks was realistic.

:04:09.:04:13.

Homeless young people are being failed by a lack of support, a

:04:13.:04:18.

group of MSPs has claimed. A report by the equal opportunities

:04:18.:04:20.

committee says that many youngsters were profoundly disadvantaged by

:04:21.:04:27.

not having basic life skills such as cooking and budgeting. Some are

:04:27.:04:29.

also place in sub-standard accommodation. The committee is

:04:29.:04:32.

calling on the Scottish Government to check which councils like

:04:32.:04:36.

strategies to deal with the problem. We are not asking the Government to

:04:36.:04:40.

do anything that is not already there. We are asking them to work

:04:40.:04:45.

with local authorities to make sure there is more of a uniform process

:04:45.:04:48.

across the local authorities in Scotland so that it is not a

:04:49.:04:51.

postcode lottery for support for young people.

:04:51.:04:56.

More than �1 million has been given to local authorities to help

:04:56.:05:00.

support people with autism. It is the first time cash has been

:05:00.:05:05.

allocated since ministers launched their strategy last year. Around 30

:05:05.:05:09.

organisations will benefit from the Government's Autism Development

:05:09.:05:11.

Fund. Time to look at the weather

:05:11.:05:20.

So far this weekend, the weather has been lovely in this part of the

:05:20.:05:23.

country, which is because of this area of high pressure which

:05:23.:05:26.

continues to dominate the forecast this afternoon and into the

:05:26.:05:30.

beginning of next week. This afternoon is mainly dry across the

:05:30.:05:38.

country with some lovely spells of sunshine. Further North West, some

:05:38.:05:42.

cloud here at times with showers, feeling pleasant in the sunshine

:05:42.:05:52.
:05:52.:06:01.

with like winds. They Green Park are now officially

:06:01.:06:09.

signed up to the S Scotland campaign. -- the Green Party. Our

:06:09.:06:15.

political correspondent was at their conference. The Greens are

:06:15.:06:17.

not normally obsessed with constitutional affairs. They care

:06:17.:06:23.

more about the environment. But Scotland is due to make it back his

:06:23.:06:26.

decision to the hundred Years In the Hat decided to be a farmer

:06:27.:06:35.

their broad commitment to independence. -- its by his

:06:35.:06:42.

decision in 300 years, the Green Party have decided. The debate

:06:42.:06:48.

taking place buying these stores is so important. It started with a

:06:48.:06:58.

chance for delegates to its tune. The after the political meditation,

:06:58.:07:07.

his speeches. Patrick Harvie had previously accused the yes Scotland

:07:07.:07:10.

movement as being dominated by their SNP but he said that progress

:07:10.:07:18.

had been made. It has evolved into the kind of organisation should

:07:18.:07:25.

have been on day one. I think it would be quite bizarre for us not

:07:25.:07:30.

to be involved with the main campaign that is looking to achieve

:07:30.:07:35.

that Yes vote. Being involved gives us the opportunity to put forward a

:07:35.:07:43.

radically different agenda about what the yes vote is all about.

:07:43.:07:46.

However it is fair to say that the party are not overly enthusiastic

:07:47.:07:56.

about independence. I am not a gung-ho about independence. It is

:07:56.:08:05.

not for Christmas, at his for life. Yes Scotland later held a fringe

:08:05.:08:12.

meeting. The their Greens have distinct arguments that favour

:08:12.:08:22.
:08:22.:08:26.

independence. Would they be joining up? The answer was yes. Patrick

:08:26.:08:31.

Harvie is here now. Thank you for coming in. You're at decision to

:08:32.:08:36.

run your own independence campaign as well as signing up to the yes

:08:36.:08:39.

Scotland campaign would suggest that you still have reservations

:08:39.:08:47.

that the SNP will dominate the campaign. I suspect they will do

:08:47.:08:50.

the same thing and I think that is a perfectly reasonable thing for a

:08:50.:08:54.

political party to do. It is important that we speak up for the

:08:54.:08:58.

reasons why we support Scottish independence but also protect the

:08:58.:09:02.

Green Party's independence. Our distinctive and much more radical

:09:02.:09:07.

vision of what independence is about should come across during the

:09:07.:09:14.

campaign. In areas where that could be depression - for example it is

:09:14.:09:21.

important that you market your own territory - let's start by having a

:09:21.:09:25.

look at a story today that could potentially be very divisive. Just

:09:25.:09:31.

to get your opinion on it. Scotland On Sunday, the abortion law changed

:09:31.:09:34.

after independence. If the health minister saying this is his

:09:34.:09:39.

personal opinion. He believes that the 24 week when it should be

:09:39.:09:43.

reduced. We have spoken to him this morning and he says it is not

:09:43.:09:48.

government of party policy, either now or in an independent Scotland,

:09:48.:09:55.

because it could be a matter of conscience. Although he personally

:09:55.:10:03.

supports it. How divisive would that be? I certainly hope it does

:10:03.:10:08.

not become as polarised an issue as it is in some countries. That does

:10:08.:10:12.

not support either women's rights to access reproductive health

:10:13.:10:17.

services, or the white one of the debate. I am very clear that

:10:17.:10:23.

reproductive rights go hand in hand with reproductive health. My party

:10:23.:10:26.

and by at committed to supporting and defending a woman's right to

:10:26.:10:30.

choose. As soon as I read that article I immediately put in a

:10:30.:10:35.

written question asking whether the government remains committed to

:10:35.:10:39.

reproductive health services which are accessible and support

:10:39.:10:42.

reproductive rights of women. That will always need to be defended.

:10:42.:10:47.

But I think a new health secretary, so soon after being appointed,

:10:47.:10:50.

should have been a bit more thoughtful about how his comments

:10:50.:10:55.

would be interpreted. They will worry many people, that the SNP is

:10:55.:10:59.

about to make a pitch for a set of policies that I don't think they

:10:59.:11:05.

actually want to pitch for. This is an irresponsible way to present a

:11:05.:11:11.

personal opinion so soon after becoming the new Health Secretary.

:11:11.:11:15.

You also disagree with the First Minister that at there is a yes

:11:15.:11:20.

vote then everything can be signed and sealed in times for the

:11:20.:11:27.

Holyrood election of 2016. Do you think that is credible? I am very

:11:27.:11:31.

concerned about that time scale and have met the Scottish Government to

:11:31.:11:36.

discuss it. The idea that within 16 months you can not only conclude

:11:36.:11:39.

negotiations with the UK Government - which are remember, will not

:11:39.:11:43.

really begin until the summer after the referendum because it will be

:11:43.:11:49.

you key election to get through, the new UK government would begin

:11:49.:11:52.

negotiations in earnest - so what would become 89 months to conclude

:11:52.:11:59.

that it was nations about legalities, mechanics, assets, debt,

:12:00.:12:08.

liabilities -- eight of nine months, all of the organisational

:12:08.:12:13.

architecture, reserve functions, as well as thinking about how the

:12:13.:12:17.

Scottish Parliament must change, to be able to hold an independent

:12:17.:12:21.

government to account, I think that the headlong rush. We would end up

:12:21.:12:31.
:12:31.:12:34.

making stakes on that time scale. So what would 2016 B? I would like

:12:34.:12:39.

to see a normal Scottish Parliament election but a wider, civic process

:12:39.:12:42.

much like a constitutional conventions but allowing people to

:12:42.:12:47.

debate what kind of constitution the one for Scotland. To

:12:47.:12:49.

participate it could need to involve all sides. So there would

:12:49.:12:52.

need to be time for people to get over the shock of the result.

:12:52.:12:56.

Because it would appear surprising result for some people. But

:12:56.:12:59.

everybody needs to participate in the discussion about what can the

:12:59.:13:06.

constitution we want. Once that is in place we can transfer of power.

:13:06.:13:09.

At that point should it be a referendum about what has been

:13:09.:13:15.

negotiated in the settlement? would be for the people to debate

:13:15.:13:19.

in the civic process. I would want an absolute ban on nuclear weapons

:13:19.:13:24.

operating on the Clyde but also participation in a nuclear defence

:13:24.:13:29.

alliance like any talk. Others would oppose that but I think we

:13:29.:13:32.

should debate the issues with participation from everybody in

:13:32.:13:40.

Scotland. A much longer process than that which has outline by

:13:40.:13:50.
:13:50.:13:56.

their SNP. My view is that it been the to be. Statistics recently

:13:56.:14:06.
:14:06.:14:07.

published do about rape fall a long history of campaigns about sexual

:14:07.:14:12.

violence. But has it succeeded in dispelling the myth that rape

:14:12.:14:18.

victims are asking for it? Recent sadistic suggest not. A 23% thought

:14:18.:14:24.

a woman was partially responsible act drunk when attacked. 17%

:14:24.:14:29.

thought she was partially to blame if she were revealing clothing. 15%

:14:29.:14:34.

shed she was partly to blame if flouting. 8% said rate could be a

:14:34.:14:44.
:14:44.:14:48.

woman's fault that she had lots of The pornography is increasingly

:14:48.:14:53.

violent and extreme, and XTC lay it accessible. It tells young men and

:14:53.:14:58.

women that they should increasingly be available for sex, never say no,

:14:58.:15:02.

and always enjoy it. This has become part of the culture, and

:15:02.:15:08.

normal way of looking at women. It is everywhere. Women fear these

:15:08.:15:15.

prejudices could work against them and the courts. To the concern is

:15:15.:15:18.

that this will be two more acquittals. That jurors will look

:15:18.:15:23.

at the evidence, the complainant, and pink, she was drinking, she

:15:23.:15:28.

wore revealing clothing, the therefore she is somehow

:15:28.:15:35.

responsible. How can negative stereotypes be smashed? In a

:15:35.:15:38.

ground-breaking project will be so trying to encourage older children

:15:38.:15:45.

to make sure youngsters get the message that no means no. We wanted

:15:45.:15:50.

to train the young and mentors to going to classes and to talk about

:15:50.:15:55.

quite difficult subject. Rate, eight violence, other forms of

:15:55.:16:01.

abusive behaviour. FOR the first time police are trying to get me

:16:01.:16:09.

into top one another about where to draw the line. Will these attempts

:16:09.:16:13.

change the prevailing culture of prejudice. I enjoy my a

:16:13.:16:17.

representative of Rape Crisis Scotland. In Edinburgh is human

:16:17.:16:23.

rights lawyer, John Scott. Thank you both are coming in. Women look

:16:23.:16:33.
:16:33.:16:34.

at this prevailing culture, why does it persist? I think attitudes

:16:34.:16:38.

which really made a woman for every 10 to be put to lay engrained

:16:38.:16:42.

within the Scottish Society and by the UK as a whole. Abbey efforts to

:16:42.:16:47.

try to improve and challenge these attitudes. The 10 to focus on the

:16:47.:16:52.

victims rather than the perpetrators. We need a much more

:16:52.:16:59.

sustained approach. We need to transform attitudes within Scotland.

:16:59.:17:03.

What is undoubted is that it stops people coming forward and the first

:17:03.:17:13.
:17:13.:17:17.

place because of fear of being blamed. Let me ask a legal point

:17:17.:17:22.

that seems to be emerging. When that decision was made to end

:17:22.:17:27.

corroboration and retrials, criminal trials, the idea that was

:17:27.:17:31.

getting rid of it could be quite useful and boost the number of

:17:31.:17:34.

convictions and. Now there's a sense that getting rid of co-

:17:34.:17:39.

operation might have the opposite effect. If these attitudes, as we

:17:39.:17:42.

have seen in the film, art displayed by jurors took rape

:17:42.:17:50.

victims. There is a potential problem. The question of attitudes

:17:50.:17:55.

is far more important than those of evidence, like for more

:17:55.:17:59.

requirements for corroboration. The work of the pylons reduction Unit,

:17:59.:18:03.

that is exactly the sort of thing that, along with improved media

:18:03.:18:08.

coverage, which will have a greater chance of defecting attitudes. To

:18:08.:18:12.

simply abolish corroboration - and the MRC that happen things which

:18:12.:18:18.

this Government have done which I consider to be brave and right,

:18:18.:18:23.

trying to do something serious about reducing prison overcrowding

:18:23.:18:29.

and shot and prison sentences - but in relation to its a clear decision

:18:29.:18:33.

to scrap or operation I think they are wrong and they will reconsider

:18:33.:18:42.

I hope. With a potential consequence speedy -- what a

:18:42.:18:49.

potential consequence de that more leeway would be allowed to ask more

:18:49.:18:56.

interest and the appropriate questions? It is hard to say. The

:18:56.:19:02.

legislation is there. I think legislation which prevents an

:19:02.:19:09.

appropriate questions being asked, works. We need to have a whole

:19:09.:19:14.

measure, a whole review of other safeguards as part of that. That

:19:14.:19:21.

would undoubtedly mean reviewing the rate legislation. Moving on

:19:21.:19:26.

from general attitudes to rape victims, once they're in the system,

:19:26.:19:31.

who people are treated if they have been a victim, Strathclyde Police

:19:31.:19:35.

are saying that they are going to set up women who will be trained to

:19:35.:19:40.

offer counselling to victims and assist police with interviews.

:19:40.:19:43.

Female only assistance teams. That announcement has been made in the

:19:43.:19:49.

Herald today. Will that be helpful? Do me to look at the court process,

:19:49.:19:56.

not just the culture? I think it is helpful. How do we get to support

:19:56.:20:00.

complaints through the process? It is dramatic and difficult evidence

:20:00.:20:04.

they have to go. The better evidence you will get the more you

:20:04.:20:07.

support the victim. But I would like to go back to the

:20:07.:20:10.

corroboration. Briefly. I can understand the concern about

:20:10.:20:17.

whether it actually increases the focus. But I do think we need to be

:20:17.:20:21.

realistic, already it is difficult to see how it could be worse than

:20:21.:20:25.

it is. Because there is so much focus on the complainants behaviour

:20:26.:20:32.

both leading up to and during the assault. I don't think we should

:20:32.:20:36.

look at this in a vacuum. If we remove corroboration people will

:20:36.:20:40.

say there is a concerned, but what about the role of judges? They have

:20:40.:20:43.

a responsibility to make sure complainants are not abused and

:20:43.:20:48.

humiliated. And also defence lawyers, wave their ethical

:20:48.:20:51.

responsibility? Would you draw the line and took out what you're what

:20:51.:21:01.
:21:01.:21:11.

-- about what you put in a witness Would it be useful for us to talk

:21:11.:21:15.

to juries about their attitudes? Research into juries would be

:21:15.:21:20.

useful. In some other countries it is possible, and we know more from

:21:20.:21:27.

elsewhere, like America and New Zealand, about how juries operate.

:21:27.:21:31.

Some of what we discover might alarm us and some of what we

:21:31.:21:38.

discover would undoubtedly reassure us. At the moment it is difficult

:21:38.:21:41.

to know how they operate. In particular, with the availability

:21:41.:21:46.

of prejudicial material on the internet, that is a real problem.

:21:46.:21:51.

On the question of corroboration again, corroboration acts as a

:21:51.:21:56.

safeguard. Many people think it has been watered down too much.

:21:56.:21:59.

Corroboration and the existence of corroborating evidence in many

:21:59.:22:03.

cases leads to people pleading guilty. Is corroboration is a

:22:03.:22:07.

requirement, pressure of work and resources on the part of the police

:22:07.:22:12.

will be -- will lead to corroboration not being sought.

:22:12.:22:15.

That will lead to an increase in the number of miscarriages of

:22:15.:22:25.
:22:25.:22:30.

justice in the court. Sandy at Rape Crisis Scotland wants to see more

:22:30.:22:32.

miscarriages of justice, but it is equally a miscarriage of justice if

:22:33.:22:36.

somebody is wrongly convicted. Thank you very much.

:22:36.:22:40.

In a moment, we will discuss what has made the newspapers today. What

:22:40.:22:50.
:22:50.:22:54.

is coming up in politics. Let's Good news on the jobs front after

:22:54.:23:00.

the collapse of sports chain JJB. The owner of meet pressing -- a

:23:00.:23:04.

meat processing plant said it will also close in a buyer is not found

:23:04.:23:06.

by February. The American tycoon Donald Trump

:23:07.:23:11.

was back in Aberdeen, saying his fight against plans for a wind farm

:23:11.:23:15.

off his new Golf resort will not be thrown off course. Scottish

:23:15.:23:17.

National Heritage drop his opposition.

:23:17.:23:22.

Some of the country's most high- profile lawyers lined up to press

:23:22.:23:26.

the off switch on televised criminal trials.

:23:26.:23:32.

Chris Hoy opened the bedroom that bears his name as the push to open

:23:32.:23:39.

be Commonwealth Games builds up. will attract people to get into the

:23:39.:23:42.

sport and produce champions of the future.

:23:42.:23:48.

Martha Payne's blog became an internet hit. She has been to

:23:48.:23:58.
:23:58.:23:59.

Malawi to see how the money she Now time to have a look at the week

:23:59.:24:09.
:24:09.:24:12.

The author Kirsty Scott and economic commentator Alf Young are

:24:12.:24:18.

here in the studio with me now. The former Auditor-General. Does it

:24:18.:24:26.

matter what he says? It matters in that the debate is moving into a

:24:26.:24:30.

different debate. We had an early stage where we said that Johann

:24:30.:24:35.

Lamont has blown it. She opened the door to the SNP and there was a lot

:24:35.:24:39.

of horse trading in the chain that. But there is a debate to be had,

:24:39.:24:43.

because, as I see it, every budget is finite. Every budget involves

:24:43.:24:48.

choices, and in a real democracy, you talk about the choices and why

:24:48.:24:54.

we have those choices. Why do we have some things that are free at

:24:54.:24:59.

point of access, and what does it cost and other areas? We need to

:24:59.:25:03.

have that debate. We are in a financial mess. The whole Western

:25:03.:25:07.

world is in a financial mess. commission the best way to

:25:07.:25:12.

regulated? We do need a debate, but I am not so sure about the

:25:12.:25:16.

commissioner. Susan Deacon was saying it area as if she was

:25:16.:25:20.

parking the issue, which might let politicians off the hook. A

:25:20.:25:27.

journalist writing in the Sunday Herald today talked in broad terms

:25:27.:25:31.

about the social contract between the Government and the people of

:25:31.:25:35.

Scotland in which these universal benefits were enshrined, but he did

:25:35.:25:40.

not seem to engage in the debate. Is it a difficult debate for which

:25:40.:25:44.

to find the right language? It has got to be framed very carefully.

:25:44.:25:54.
:25:54.:25:54.

Has that happened? No. You have got the exchanges, you saw, I don't

:25:54.:25:58.

think the arguments really take us anywhere. We need to have a debate

:25:58.:26:02.

about what we are prepared to commit a social good and public

:26:02.:26:06.

good in society, and what we expect in return. And you are saying, be

:26:06.:26:11.

honest about the price tag. Yes, and the thing about the commission,

:26:11.:26:16.

in a word, is that it is unaccountable. You do not want an

:26:16.:26:19.

and accountable commission deciding what our priorities are for us. You

:26:19.:26:23.

want a democracy where people make choices. And where politicians help

:26:23.:26:29.

make those decisions with you. the Herald today, they lead with

:26:29.:26:39.
:26:39.:26:39.

Alex Neil saying that he thinks the 24th week limit on abortions should

:26:39.:26:46.

be reduced. Already a massive storm on Twitter about this. I saw that

:26:46.:26:50.

this morning, following on from Jeremy Hunt last week. What has

:26:50.:26:54.

been missing from the debate is another middle-aged man with

:26:54.:27:03.

religious leanings deciding what women should do with their bodies!

:27:03.:27:07.

It is quite frightening, as a woman, to think we are going down this

:27:07.:27:11.

path now. Are we heading, as Patrick Harvie was heading --

:27:11.:27:16.

saying, towards the US culture on abortion rights? I saw a

:27:16.:27:19.

distressing this morning to see that story, and for him to step

:27:19.:27:24.

back and say it is a personal view is disingenuous, because he is the

:27:24.:27:28.

Health Secretary. As an elderly man are entering into this debate, why

:27:28.:27:34.

two men who do not know much about health are given responsibility for

:27:34.:27:37.

running the health service in these different parts of the United

:27:37.:27:40.

Kingdom, and the first public pronouncement they make is about

:27:40.:27:43.

their own personal views on when women should be allowed to have an

:27:43.:27:48.

abortion, it is just wrong politics, apart from anything else. They

:27:48.:27:52.

should be learning about the system they are trying to improve and

:27:52.:27:57.

doing that before they open their mouths. And they always catch it in

:27:57.:28:01.

either ideological or scientific terms and in no way do they

:28:01.:28:11.
:28:11.:28:11.

discussed women's experience. absolutely agree. David Mundell is

:28:11.:28:15.

in the newspaper saying it would be too difficult to get 16 and 17

:28:15.:28:19.

year-olds in two specific registers for the referendum vote. That

:28:19.:28:25.

really would not be unfair on the SNP's proposal. What does that mean,

:28:25.:28:29.

it is of the table? It could mean that it is off the table, but I

:28:29.:28:33.

always thought it was flawed and the first place. If you are going

:28:33.:28:37.

to give teenagers the right to vote on the future constitutional state

:28:37.:28:41.

of their nation, I have problems with that. But if you are going to

:28:41.:28:45.

give them that, they need to be given the right to vote in every

:28:45.:28:51.

election thereafter. Why not extend the franchise from 16 to 18? That

:28:51.:28:55.

is the most sensible thing to do. The response from Nicola Sturgeon's

:28:55.:28:59.

spokes people to this issue that David Mundell has raised, they said

:28:59.:29:03.

that it has been a key part of what they have been discussing and it is

:29:03.:29:06.

something they are keen to have. They do not sound completely

:29:06.:29:12.

committed to it. We are close to a done deal? We need to get it done.

:29:12.:29:14.

We need the legislation if we're going to have the vote at all.

:29:15.:29:19.

There is still that lingering other story about whether it looks like

:29:19.:29:25.

it will be yes or no. They might not want the fight happen anyway!

:29:25.:29:29.

Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser with the latest political news, interviews and debate including defence secretary Philip Hammond from the Conservative Party Conference in Birmingham and shadow foreign secretary Douglas Alexander.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS