07/10/2012 Sunday Politics Scotland


07/10/2012

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Watch out Birmingham, Conservatives are coming. To all scruple asked

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what people really think up the party and the Prime Minister. --

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our poll will last. I still think he is a bit aloof. What about the

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party faithful? We will ask the Defence Secretary about a state of

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the party. And Ed Miliband made his party happy, but what about the

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voters? We last-day shadow Foreign Secretary. And here in Scotland,

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could the train wreck that is the west coast rail franchise derail

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future Scotrail bids? We'll go live to the Conservative conference and

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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1912 seconds

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We opened up a franchise system so that there would be more

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flexibility, its flexibility that we believe passengers wanted. The

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problems are not in the design or specification, there in the

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Is it not time that ministers took some... Up the franchise system is

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not discredited then why are they are two investigations into?

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understanding is that the investigations and into the process

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that was used, the methodology, used to evaluate. I have not heard

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anything to suggest that the change in the franchise specifications,

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the way in which the franchises are designed, has been challenged by

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these reviews. The former Director General of train-operating

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companies calls it a shame four- line. -- shameful. Should ministers

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take responsibility for a shambles? To ministers obviously take over

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all responsibility for what happens in their apartment but we have

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moved on from the days when ministers were expected to manage

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every detail of the work in their apartment. They have to hold their

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civil servants to account. Ask questions. Of course they do. But

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they cant be involved in the -- in every last aspect. Thank you, Mr

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Hammond. What do you make of that? That will not have been

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uncomfortable viewing for Greening. He did not complete the sentence

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after saying he was shown the pictures anonymously. Unlike

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Justene Greening, who clearly did not keep as close an eye as he

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should have done. I am glad you gave him a real grilling. The

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impression of incompetence has been created by this Government. Over

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and again we get these types of major failures. But Conservatives

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can speak about whatever they like at their conference but unless they

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repair the impression of incompetence or policy, they will

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not get boats. Mr Hammond was responsible for the franchise

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system and it has not worked. and I agree that greening is in an

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even more difficult position. I have never bought into the idea

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that civil servants are beyond criticism but it is impossible to

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conceive of the situation without ministerial involvement. You are

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Welcome to Sunday politics Scotland. Our politicians that best people to

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prioritise and target universal benefits? The former Auditor

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General says not necessarily. And the warning from an academic of

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unintended consequences for rape victims. I am concerned this will

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lead to more acquittals. That Judy's will put the complainant and

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pink, she was drinking, wore revealing clothing. The Scottish

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Greens have voted to join the campaign for Scottish independence.

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And calls for the Government to change the way it awards rail

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franchises after the decision to scrap the West Coast Main Line

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Should the taxpayer money be spent and public services without charge?

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Or should it be targeted for those most in need? That debate has just

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taken place at the heart of Scottish politics and the former

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Auditor-General, Robert Black, has said that Holyrood's spending

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commitments have become unsustainable. For 12 years he was

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the top public spending watchdog official. He has recently retired

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and free to talk candidly. He is questioning whether it is

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sustainable to keep providing a range of public services to

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everybody without charge. And even if it is, is that the most

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effective use of public funds? affordability must be questioned.

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Every round on three services as a PoW and that is not there for other

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things. -- every pound. It sparked a heated debate. Talks about

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securing public services and three everything. But he has already

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brought into �0.7 billion worth of cuts. Robert Black says that

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promises were not properly costed and in the menials budgets should

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be cuts. For instance, travel fare concessions rising towards �0.5

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billion per year. The NHS Ellis double what it was a decade ago.

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The cost of care of elderly rises annually. Whether Scotland votes

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for independence or not these spending pressures will not go away.

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Mr Black also asked, his Holyrood costing too many -- passing too

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many on costed laws? And why do we have such a clutter of public

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bodies and over-complex partnerships? Do we really neat 32

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councils? He says that he speaks for other public sector leaders who

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I am joined by the former health minister and a representative from

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the Scottish Council up all up -- voluntary -- the Scottish Council

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voluntary organisations. Robert Black is saying that it ever party

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is in power, some things are just not functioning. It is amusing how

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much a couple of speeches have blown open a debate that should

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have been happening for their 13 years. And a real world a great

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many people asking why politicians have not been having a more

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measured debate about affordability, priorities. And why this assumption

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that if you throw lots of money, government money, at a problem, it

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will fix it? We have 13 years of devolution under our belt and

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should be asking hard questions about the limitations of the

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decision-making during that period. Why has that not happened?

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reaction of labour to the SNP speech was interpreted as Labour

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imposing Conservative cuts. There was no consideration of long-term

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implications. Susan is correct, the elephant in the financial room has

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been universal benefits. Middle- class benefits. The very poorest in

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our communities are not benefiting from universal services. Poverty

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and inequality has increased since the Scottish Parliament came in. So

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people are not part of that process. And a lot of people don't gain from

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universal services. I do not want to dwell on this but lots of these

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benefits came in under Labour. Rock lack has argued that they were not

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costed probably. How do you frame their conversation in a way that

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does not allow your opponents to say you have just trying to deprive

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people in need? There is a responsibility that it expands over

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the whole the Holyrood bubble, including commentators and the

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media. I hear people saying, that is just politics, it has got to be

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this way. We did not say that when the banks went wrong. We did not

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say that when there were questions about the media, we happily a

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person inquiry. We should shine a light on how hour politics

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functions. Part of the dynamics during a debate in this country is

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the fear that it will be perceived as an electoral liability to speak

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honestly and openly, or you will get some headlines screaming at you

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from a newspaper. But we spent a long time creating an institution

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in Edinburgh that was meant to be open to ideas. We have not got that

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and that is a very serious issue. Robert Black said that MSPs do not

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understand we the voluntary and private sectors operate and risk

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cutting funds from organisations doing a good job. Not just MSPs but

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councillors. I imagine you think that is fair comment. I think it is.

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People in communities can make decisions. It links to your

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question, when you involve people in designing services and making

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decisions about the services and priorities they want, then actually

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we can make the hard choices about budgets and universal services.

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About what we need to seek to sustain communities. The fact is,

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that has not happened and there as a distinct lack of understanding

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about the way the charity and private sectors operate. In the

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third sector we're still time to procure people services. -- trying.

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So the whole system needs a culture change. You can have the best

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legislation in the world but it is what happens in practice at a local

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level, in terms of implementing legislation, if that is key for

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business and the voluntary sector. We needed to have more space.

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Adjacent to the political process. Yet that can still influence it, a

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bit more like and do it less heat around issues. But we have to be

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careful that we do not let the political parties off the hook.

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There had been a lot of commissions, a lot of data has been amassed

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around public spending. An independent financial review was

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published two years ago and it is only now we're starting to talk

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about some of the things raised. The former Auditor General also

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said that spending pressures will continue regardless of how the

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independence referendum goes. And he said we cannot wait for the

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debate. Do you agree? I do, because it is about the future of Scotland

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and what we can afford in terms of public services. The problem of

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this debate is we're having it in the context of a block grant, and

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not in terms of a progressive taxation system for Scotland.

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People seem to want Scandinavian levels of public services and pay

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American levels of taxation. That is frankly unaffordable. We need a

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full and frank debate. I agree with Susan, needed better space, but

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frankly, Commission is not the way forward. If it is about tax-raising,

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tax spending powers, to recover level, would that forced a more

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mature debate? I think the fact that we have had a spending only

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Parliament in place has not helped, it has been too easy for every

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party to say that they will spend more than the other lot. That has

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got to stop. But the whole question of taxation is not the only one at

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least here. We need to move away from talking about a affordability

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and how much money we have and move and took priorities and what would

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make a difference. The other thing we have learned over the years is

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that a lot of multi- million-pound government back policies have not

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done up in the changes in this country that we intended. My

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experience is that people outside of the political poll are up for

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that conversation much more so than As civil servants to prepare to

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depend a look decision to hand the West Coast Main Line franchise to

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FirstGroup the need a critical discovery, mistakes had been made

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and the minister had to pull the plug. The whole do battle has

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proved embarrassing and raised questions about compensate of the

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Government. -- good tackle. -- debacle. We are well used to delays

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on a British Railways. But not detained or cancellation we saw

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this week. The UK Government had to concede there were serious flaws in

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the way the West Coast franchise had been a lot at. The put back

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FirstGroup had been seriously miscalculated. Two investigations

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have been ordered. One will look at what went wrong with the West Coast

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franchise, the other will look at the wider franchise programme.

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There is now concern that the ScotRail franchise could be put

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back. It is due for renewal in 2014. There could be a delay at the

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inquiry does not give us answers to the questions being asked at the

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moment. It could be the case that not just ScotRail but many

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franchises across the UK could be delayed. Peps transport Scotland

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say the timetable will not slide. The process is led by an expert

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team who are drawing an external expertise and and when required.

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Passengers are being reassume that when Virgin's franchise ends,

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services will still run. I am extremely angry and apologetic. We

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must get to the bottom of it. will cost taxpayers �100 million.

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As the franchise system is scrutinised aviation policy is also

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being questioned. Could a her roots are critical for Scottish financial

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health. His concern businesses are being strangled by a lack of

:50:03.:50:13.
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Services at Heathrow will be given over to a longer haul flight

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overseas. The Government has postponed a decision on Heathrow's

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third runway until after the 2015 election. Meanwhile, passengers are

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not impressed at the amount of tax they have to pay for flights.

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Airlines and travel agents want a review of air passenger duty.

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an expensive tax for outbound and inbound travellers. Our concern is

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the inequality of it, trying to dispense with many people being hit

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twice. The UK Government has been on a difficult journey this week.

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Passengers and business would smooth and efficient links. They

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demand ministers and officials delivered just that.

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Listing to that at the Conservative Party conference is the Scottish

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Cup -- Scotland Office Minister and MP David Mundell. Thank you for

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joining us. With the West Coast rail fiasco, the Transport Minister

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says it was deeply regrettable and unacceptable. How would you

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describe it? It was completely unacceptable. It was not followed

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in the procedure that it should have been. That is why there are

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two inquiries into it. The West Coast Main Line is a very important

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route, not just for my own constituency and Scotland, but for

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the whole of the United Kingdom. When we go through these

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complicated procedures, they have to be absolutely in order. The

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Government has put its hand up. Richard Branson said that he was

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not pleased with the way it had been done but that he was pleased

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with the honesty of the governor's approach in think it was wrong and

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unacceptable. The Government has not put its hand at, but simply

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blamed the Civil Service, which is a shabby thing to do. It used to be

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ministers who would take it on the chin and admit it was their fault.

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This is a very complicated and detailed process. What is clear is

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that it was some of the calculations in that process that

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were at fault in terms of getting the wrong assessment. Different

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bidders were given different information, which clearly is

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completely unacceptable. It is important that we have these

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reviews so that we know exactly what did go wrong and learn from

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that and get ahead and get the franchise awarded, either to the

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existing holder or to a new bidder, because the West Coast Main Line is

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extremely important for Scotland and the United Kingdom, and we

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wanted working as effectively as possible. What assurances can you

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give that this will not affect the ScotRail franchise bid?

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There is no reason to suggest it would affect the ScotRail franchise.

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You have heard that in your package. The benefit of the ScotRail

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franchise is that it is a very discreet franchise because it

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essentially covers the Scottish geography. Yes, but it is the model

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that is the problem. The Government is now saying that it could take a

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year to work out an appropriate franchising model for this. They

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could be delays on that. Can you give a guarantee that the 2014

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deadline will not be affected? not have any reason to think at

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this time that it will be affected. The Scottish Government themselves

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and Transport Scotland, who you have just spoken to, seemed very

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confident they will be able to do it, and they do not think that

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anything that will come out of this review will impact to delay the

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ScotRail franchise. You may have got it right now when saying that

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you will review it, but UK matter that from a bad place. You did but

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actually initiate this yourself and you had no concerns ourselves, and

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it was only when Richard Branson said it would be a judicial review.

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Your conference this week is about reassuring voters that you are a

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competent government, but this itself, even if you do not add in

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claims about the economy, hardly speaks to competent governments.

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Nobody is suggesting that this was a good thing. We have put our hands

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up and said it was unacceptable. We have said that we will take forward

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a review of it. It is not the first time that there has been a serious

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issue with the rail network. Under the last Labour government, the

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East work French-led -- the East Coast network franchise collapsed.

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These things happen. Peopling government have to take them in

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their stride, move Ford and learn from this experience is. Let's look

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at some stories in the papers today. The Sunday Telegraph has the story

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that the Prime Minister is promising a for council tax freeze.

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On BBC today, he spoke about that as well. That is a fantastic idea

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that your colleagues in Scotland should be rushing to embrace?

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you know and your viewers know is that they -- is that issues like

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council tax are devolved matters in Scotland, and therefore will be

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decided in Scotland. The council tax freeze as is being set out, it

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is up to the Scottish Government whether or not that continues. I

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welcome the debate that Johann Lamont has instigated in Scotland

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about different measures in Scotland. I think it will move

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forward the political debate. That debate is already happening in

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England in terms of what we can afford against the resources we

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have, and if we move forward and have that debate in Scotland,

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Scottish politics will take a step forward. Having had the debate,

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David Cameron says the council tax freezes a very useful thing to do

:56:28.:56:35.

for people on lower incomes. Isn't the principle just the same? It is

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a debate to be had in Scotland on a devolved issue. We supported the

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council tax freeze as it has been applied in Scotland, because it has

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helped those on low incomes. There is a debate to be had in Scotland

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in relation to the use of resources that we have available and what is

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the best use of those resources. I welcome that debate in Scotland,

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because in the past, the Conservatives tried to take that

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debate forward and were met with a wall of negativity. Other parties

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in Scotland are now waking up to the fact that there is a limited

:57:12.:57:16.

amount of money and you have to make decisions about how to deploy

:57:16.:57:19.

a those resources. I hope to see those debates happening in the

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Scottish Parliament. From another newspaper article today, you are

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quoted in Scotland on Sunday saying the SNP referendum plan well let

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teenagers down, because you are saying 16 and 17 year-olds would

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have to have a separate register which could be difficult to

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implement, and therefore it is not fair for those who would not be

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able to take part in the independence referendum. Should be

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not just see that as a clear steer that this is of the table now?

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don't think so. We are looking to reach agreement with the Scottish

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Government in the near future on the basis that the referendum can

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go ahead. We have set from the start, David Cameron has been very

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clear that he was willing to facilitate the referendum according

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to the SNP mandate in be manifesto last year. We have been working

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closely with them. There have been detailed negotiations which I have

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been involved in. We are close to getting in a -- agreement on the

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referendum taking place. 16 and 17 year-olds is one of the issues. The

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SNP position has been that they would give the vote to people who

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were on the electoral register. That means that not all teenagers

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would get the vote. That is a matter for them to explain to those

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teenagers in Scotland as to why they have decided to go down that

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route. I still don't support 16 and 17 year-olds voting, because I do

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not think you should change the franchise for a particular election.

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Let me ask you, when we have spoken about the debate which has been

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raised in Scotland about universal benefits, do you think the way it

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has been framed at the moment is the most constructive way to bring

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it forward? I think it is very helpful that we have that debate.

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We cannot continue in Scotland to pretend that everything can be free

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for everybody. But his the something for nothing tag fair or

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not? I think what is clear is that there are consequences to decisions.

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The consequences I see in my own constituency of free higher

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education is that there are Colleges suffering. If people make

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decisions that money will be spent in one area, they have to stand up

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and be prepared to accept the consequences in other areas, and we

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have not had that in Scotland. We have had an approach where

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everybody has joined in a communal view that everything can be for

:00:01.:00:08.

nothing. It can't. David Mundell, thank you very much.

:00:08.:00:18.
:00:18.:00:20.

And now we can have a catch up with A church service has taken place in

:00:20.:00:23.

Machynlleth this morning to remember the missing five year-old

:00:23.:00:27.

April Jones. She was a do to close to her family's home last Monday

:00:27.:00:33.

evening. A 46-year-old man, Mark Bridger, has been charged with her

:00:34.:00:41.

abduction and murder. In the warm October sunshine, they

:00:41.:00:48.

came in their hundreds. Virtually a whole town, walking quietly deep in

:00:48.:00:58.
:00:58.:01:02.

Then into the church for a special service for April. A poem for her

:01:02.:01:11.

mother in praise of motherhood. she is a sadness dealer, a cut knee

:01:12.:01:21.
:01:22.:01:25.

he lair, had me tighter wrongness writer, Kerouac and chocolates --

:01:25.:01:30.

carer and chocolate Sheriff. While... Sometimes.

:01:30.:01:40.
:01:40.:01:41.

Then the Lord's Prayer, into languages, but with one message.

:01:41.:01:46.

The service was relayed by speakers to those outside. Deep down, they

:01:46.:01:49.

know April is not coming back, but many here are still praying for a

:01:50.:01:56.

miracle. As the Conservative Party

:01:56.:01:59.

conference gets under way in Birmingham this afternoon, the

:01:59.:02:02.

Prime Minister has confirmed the Government needs to find more in

:02:02.:02:08.

welfare cuts by the next election. He said the rich will also has --

:02:08.:02:12.

the rich will have to pay more to help reduce the deficit. But he has

:02:12.:02:16.

rejected demands for a mansion tax on properties over �2 million a.

:02:16.:02:21.

I do not believe that we should be a country where if you work hard

:02:21.:02:25.

and saved and buy a house and to pay the mortgage and invested it, I

:02:25.:02:28.

don't want to be a country that comes after you every year with a

:02:29.:02:33.

massive tax, so that is not going to happen.

:02:33.:02:38.

We can get more on this from our political correspondent who is at

:02:38.:02:41.

the Conservative conference in Birmingham this lunch time. The

:02:41.:02:48.

Prime Minister is very clear that that -- that there is still a lot

:02:48.:02:51.

to be done to reduce the deficit. Yes, and he made it clear several

:02:51.:02:55.

times that he wants the rich to pay their share, but he did not spell

:02:55.:03:00.

out what he thinks that means. He is not going to take up the Liberal

:03:00.:03:04.

Democrat idea of a mansion tax. He does not like the idea of new

:03:04.:03:11.

council tax banding is either a. We have had a flurry of announcements

:03:11.:03:16.

today about capping rail fares. All that begs the question of where

:03:16.:03:19.

he's going to find the money. He has made it clear that the bid

:03:19.:03:22.

target is the welfare budget, which means more cuts to benefits,

:03:22.:03:25.

something that will be difficult and controversial when people are

:03:25.:03:29.

already struggling. Thank you very much.

:03:29.:03:34.

That is all the news for now. There is more on BBC One at 6:30pm this

:03:34.:03:42.

evening. Good afternoon. Scotland's Health

:03:42.:03:45.

Secretary has said that the 24 week limit for terminating pregnancies

:03:45.:03:51.

should be reduced. Speaking to Scotland on Sunday, Alex Neil said

:03:51.:03:54.

that legislation should be looked at in an independent Scotland, but

:03:54.:03:57.

made it clear that his views were personal.

:03:57.:04:03.

Jeremy Hunt has backed a reduction from the current 24 weeks to 12. Mr

:04:03.:04:06.

Neil was quoted as saying that there was a case for reduction, but

:04:06.:04:09.

that he did not know if 12 weeks was realistic.

:04:09.:04:13.

Homeless young people are being failed by a lack of support, a

:04:13.:04:18.

group of MSPs has claimed. A report by the equal opportunities

:04:18.:04:20.

committee says that many youngsters were profoundly disadvantaged by

:04:21.:04:27.

not having basic life skills such as cooking and budgeting. Some are

:04:27.:04:29.

also place in sub-standard accommodation. The committee is

:04:29.:04:32.

calling on the Scottish Government to check which councils like

:04:32.:04:36.

strategies to deal with the problem. We are not asking the Government to

:04:36.:04:40.

do anything that is not already there. We are asking them to work

:04:40.:04:45.

with local authorities to make sure there is more of a uniform process

:04:45.:04:48.

across the local authorities in Scotland so that it is not a

:04:49.:04:51.

postcode lottery for support for young people.

:04:51.:04:56.

More than �1 million has been given to local authorities to help

:04:56.:05:00.

support people with autism. It is the first time cash has been

:05:00.:05:05.

allocated since ministers launched their strategy last year. Around 30

:05:05.:05:09.

organisations will benefit from the Government's Autism Development

:05:09.:05:11.

Fund. Time to look at the weather

:05:11.:05:20.

So far this weekend, the weather has been lovely in this part of the

:05:20.:05:23.

country, which is because of this area of high pressure which

:05:23.:05:26.

continues to dominate the forecast this afternoon and into the

:05:26.:05:30.

beginning of next week. This afternoon is mainly dry across the

:05:30.:05:38.

country with some lovely spells of sunshine. Further North West, some

:05:38.:05:42.

cloud here at times with showers, feeling pleasant in the sunshine

:05:42.:05:52.
:05:52.:06:01.

with like winds. They Green Park are now officially

:06:01.:06:09.

signed up to the S Scotland campaign. -- the Green Party. Our

:06:09.:06:15.

political correspondent was at their conference. The Greens are

:06:15.:06:17.

not normally obsessed with constitutional affairs. They care

:06:17.:06:23.

more about the environment. But Scotland is due to make it back his

:06:23.:06:26.

decision to the hundred Years In the Hat decided to be a farmer

:06:27.:06:35.

their broad commitment to independence. -- its by his

:06:35.:06:42.

decision in 300 years, the Green Party have decided. The debate

:06:42.:06:48.

taking place buying these stores is so important. It started with a

:06:48.:06:58.

chance for delegates to its tune. The after the political meditation,

:06:58.:07:07.

his speeches. Patrick Harvie had previously accused the yes Scotland

:07:07.:07:10.

movement as being dominated by their SNP but he said that progress

:07:10.:07:18.

had been made. It has evolved into the kind of organisation should

:07:18.:07:25.

have been on day one. I think it would be quite bizarre for us not

:07:25.:07:30.

to be involved with the main campaign that is looking to achieve

:07:30.:07:35.

that Yes vote. Being involved gives us the opportunity to put forward a

:07:35.:07:43.

radically different agenda about what the yes vote is all about.

:07:43.:07:46.

However it is fair to say that the party are not overly enthusiastic

:07:47.:07:56.

about independence. I am not a gung-ho about independence. It is

:07:56.:08:05.

not for Christmas, at his for life. Yes Scotland later held a fringe

:08:05.:08:12.

meeting. The their Greens have distinct arguments that favour

:08:12.:08:22.
:08:22.:08:26.

independence. Would they be joining up? The answer was yes. Patrick

:08:26.:08:31.

Harvie is here now. Thank you for coming in. You're at decision to

:08:32.:08:36.

run your own independence campaign as well as signing up to the yes

:08:36.:08:39.

Scotland campaign would suggest that you still have reservations

:08:39.:08:47.

that the SNP will dominate the campaign. I suspect they will do

:08:47.:08:50.

the same thing and I think that is a perfectly reasonable thing for a

:08:50.:08:54.

political party to do. It is important that we speak up for the

:08:54.:08:58.

reasons why we support Scottish independence but also protect the

:08:58.:09:02.

Green Party's independence. Our distinctive and much more radical

:09:02.:09:07.

vision of what independence is about should come across during the

:09:07.:09:14.

campaign. In areas where that could be depression - for example it is

:09:14.:09:21.

important that you market your own territory - let's start by having a

:09:21.:09:25.

look at a story today that could potentially be very divisive. Just

:09:25.:09:31.

to get your opinion on it. Scotland On Sunday, the abortion law changed

:09:31.:09:34.

after independence. If the health minister saying this is his

:09:34.:09:39.

personal opinion. He believes that the 24 week when it should be

:09:39.:09:43.

reduced. We have spoken to him this morning and he says it is not

:09:43.:09:48.

government of party policy, either now or in an independent Scotland,

:09:48.:09:55.

because it could be a matter of conscience. Although he personally

:09:55.:10:03.

supports it. How divisive would that be? I certainly hope it does

:10:03.:10:08.

not become as polarised an issue as it is in some countries. That does

:10:08.:10:12.

not support either women's rights to access reproductive health

:10:13.:10:17.

services, or the white one of the debate. I am very clear that

:10:17.:10:23.

reproductive rights go hand in hand with reproductive health. My party

:10:23.:10:26.

and by at committed to supporting and defending a woman's right to

:10:26.:10:30.

choose. As soon as I read that article I immediately put in a

:10:30.:10:35.

written question asking whether the government remains committed to

:10:35.:10:39.

reproductive health services which are accessible and support

:10:39.:10:42.

reproductive rights of women. That will always need to be defended.

:10:42.:10:47.

But I think a new health secretary, so soon after being appointed,

:10:47.:10:50.

should have been a bit more thoughtful about how his comments

:10:50.:10:55.

would be interpreted. They will worry many people, that the SNP is

:10:55.:10:59.

about to make a pitch for a set of policies that I don't think they

:10:59.:11:05.

actually want to pitch for. This is an irresponsible way to present a

:11:05.:11:11.

personal opinion so soon after becoming the new Health Secretary.

:11:11.:11:15.

You also disagree with the First Minister that at there is a yes

:11:15.:11:20.

vote then everything can be signed and sealed in times for the

:11:20.:11:27.

Holyrood election of 2016. Do you think that is credible? I am very

:11:27.:11:31.

concerned about that time scale and have met the Scottish Government to

:11:31.:11:36.

discuss it. The idea that within 16 months you can not only conclude

:11:36.:11:39.

negotiations with the UK Government - which are remember, will not

:11:39.:11:43.

really begin until the summer after the referendum because it will be

:11:43.:11:49.

you key election to get through, the new UK government would begin

:11:49.:11:52.

negotiations in earnest - so what would become 89 months to conclude

:11:52.:11:59.

that it was nations about legalities, mechanics, assets, debt,

:12:00.:12:08.

liabilities -- eight of nine months, all of the organisational

:12:08.:12:13.

architecture, reserve functions, as well as thinking about how the

:12:13.:12:17.

Scottish Parliament must change, to be able to hold an independent

:12:17.:12:21.

government to account, I think that the headlong rush. We would end up

:12:21.:12:31.
:12:31.:12:34.

making stakes on that time scale. So what would 2016 B? I would like

:12:34.:12:39.

to see a normal Scottish Parliament election but a wider, civic process

:12:39.:12:42.

much like a constitutional conventions but allowing people to

:12:42.:12:47.

debate what kind of constitution the one for Scotland. To

:12:47.:12:49.

participate it could need to involve all sides. So there would

:12:49.:12:52.

need to be time for people to get over the shock of the result.

:12:52.:12:56.

Because it would appear surprising result for some people. But

:12:56.:12:59.

everybody needs to participate in the discussion about what can the

:12:59.:13:06.

constitution we want. Once that is in place we can transfer of power.

:13:06.:13:09.

At that point should it be a referendum about what has been

:13:09.:13:15.

negotiated in the settlement? would be for the people to debate

:13:15.:13:19.

in the civic process. I would want an absolute ban on nuclear weapons

:13:19.:13:24.

operating on the Clyde but also participation in a nuclear defence

:13:24.:13:29.

alliance like any talk. Others would oppose that but I think we

:13:29.:13:32.

should debate the issues with participation from everybody in

:13:32.:13:40.

Scotland. A much longer process than that which has outline by

:13:40.:13:50.
:13:50.:13:56.

their SNP. My view is that it been the to be. Statistics recently

:13:56.:14:06.
:14:06.:14:07.

published do about rape fall a long history of campaigns about sexual

:14:07.:14:12.

violence. But has it succeeded in dispelling the myth that rape

:14:12.:14:18.

victims are asking for it? Recent sadistic suggest not. A 23% thought

:14:18.:14:24.

a woman was partially responsible act drunk when attacked. 17%

:14:24.:14:29.

thought she was partially to blame if she were revealing clothing. 15%

:14:29.:14:34.

shed she was partly to blame if flouting. 8% said rate could be a

:14:34.:14:44.
:14:44.:14:48.

woman's fault that she had lots of The pornography is increasingly

:14:48.:14:53.

violent and extreme, and XTC lay it accessible. It tells young men and

:14:53.:14:58.

women that they should increasingly be available for sex, never say no,

:14:58.:15:02.

and always enjoy it. This has become part of the culture, and

:15:02.:15:08.

normal way of looking at women. It is everywhere. Women fear these

:15:08.:15:15.

prejudices could work against them and the courts. To the concern is

:15:15.:15:18.

that this will be two more acquittals. That jurors will look

:15:18.:15:23.

at the evidence, the complainant, and pink, she was drinking, she

:15:23.:15:28.

wore revealing clothing, the therefore she is somehow

:15:28.:15:35.

responsible. How can negative stereotypes be smashed? In a

:15:35.:15:38.

ground-breaking project will be so trying to encourage older children

:15:38.:15:45.

to make sure youngsters get the message that no means no. We wanted

:15:45.:15:50.

to train the young and mentors to going to classes and to talk about

:15:50.:15:55.

quite difficult subject. Rate, eight violence, other forms of

:15:55.:16:01.

abusive behaviour. FOR the first time police are trying to get me

:16:01.:16:09.

into top one another about where to draw the line. Will these attempts

:16:09.:16:13.

change the prevailing culture of prejudice. I enjoy my a

:16:13.:16:17.

representative of Rape Crisis Scotland. In Edinburgh is human

:16:17.:16:23.

rights lawyer, John Scott. Thank you both are coming in. Women look

:16:23.:16:33.
:16:33.:16:34.

at this prevailing culture, why does it persist? I think attitudes

:16:34.:16:38.

which really made a woman for every 10 to be put to lay engrained

:16:38.:16:42.

within the Scottish Society and by the UK as a whole. Abbey efforts to

:16:42.:16:47.

try to improve and challenge these attitudes. The 10 to focus on the

:16:47.:16:52.

victims rather than the perpetrators. We need a much more

:16:52.:16:59.

sustained approach. We need to transform attitudes within Scotland.

:16:59.:17:03.

What is undoubted is that it stops people coming forward and the first

:17:03.:17:13.
:17:13.:17:17.

place because of fear of being blamed. Let me ask a legal point

:17:17.:17:22.

that seems to be emerging. When that decision was made to end

:17:22.:17:27.

corroboration and retrials, criminal trials, the idea that was

:17:27.:17:31.

getting rid of it could be quite useful and boost the number of

:17:31.:17:34.

convictions and. Now there's a sense that getting rid of co-

:17:34.:17:39.

operation might have the opposite effect. If these attitudes, as we

:17:39.:17:42.

have seen in the film, art displayed by jurors took rape

:17:42.:17:50.

victims. There is a potential problem. The question of attitudes

:17:50.:17:55.

is far more important than those of evidence, like for more

:17:55.:17:59.

requirements for corroboration. The work of the pylons reduction Unit,

:17:59.:18:03.

that is exactly the sort of thing that, along with improved media

:18:03.:18:08.

coverage, which will have a greater chance of defecting attitudes. To

:18:08.:18:12.

simply abolish corroboration - and the MRC that happen things which

:18:12.:18:18.

this Government have done which I consider to be brave and right,

:18:18.:18:23.

trying to do something serious about reducing prison overcrowding

:18:23.:18:29.

and shot and prison sentences - but in relation to its a clear decision

:18:29.:18:33.

to scrap or operation I think they are wrong and they will reconsider

:18:33.:18:42.

I hope. With a potential consequence speedy -- what a

:18:42.:18:49.

potential consequence de that more leeway would be allowed to ask more

:18:49.:18:56.

interest and the appropriate questions? It is hard to say. The

:18:56.:19:02.

legislation is there. I think legislation which prevents an

:19:02.:19:09.

appropriate questions being asked, works. We need to have a whole

:19:09.:19:14.

measure, a whole review of other safeguards as part of that. That

:19:14.:19:21.

would undoubtedly mean reviewing the rate legislation. Moving on

:19:21.:19:26.

from general attitudes to rape victims, once they're in the system,

:19:26.:19:31.

who people are treated if they have been a victim, Strathclyde Police

:19:31.:19:35.

are saying that they are going to set up women who will be trained to

:19:35.:19:40.

offer counselling to victims and assist police with interviews.

:19:40.:19:43.

Female only assistance teams. That announcement has been made in the

:19:43.:19:49.

Herald today. Will that be helpful? Do me to look at the court process,

:19:49.:19:56.

not just the culture? I think it is helpful. How do we get to support

:19:56.:20:00.

complaints through the process? It is dramatic and difficult evidence

:20:00.:20:04.

they have to go. The better evidence you will get the more you

:20:04.:20:07.

support the victim. But I would like to go back to the

:20:07.:20:10.

corroboration. Briefly. I can understand the concern about

:20:10.:20:17.

whether it actually increases the focus. But I do think we need to be

:20:17.:20:21.

realistic, already it is difficult to see how it could be worse than

:20:21.:20:25.

it is. Because there is so much focus on the complainants behaviour

:20:26.:20:32.

both leading up to and during the assault. I don't think we should

:20:32.:20:36.

look at this in a vacuum. If we remove corroboration people will

:20:36.:20:40.

say there is a concerned, but what about the role of judges? They have

:20:40.:20:43.

a responsibility to make sure complainants are not abused and

:20:43.:20:48.

humiliated. And also defence lawyers, wave their ethical

:20:48.:20:51.

responsibility? Would you draw the line and took out what you're what

:20:51.:21:01.
:21:01.:21:11.

-- about what you put in a witness Would it be useful for us to talk

:21:11.:21:15.

to juries about their attitudes? Research into juries would be

:21:15.:21:20.

useful. In some other countries it is possible, and we know more from

:21:20.:21:27.

elsewhere, like America and New Zealand, about how juries operate.

:21:27.:21:31.

Some of what we discover might alarm us and some of what we

:21:31.:21:38.

discover would undoubtedly reassure us. At the moment it is difficult

:21:38.:21:41.

to know how they operate. In particular, with the availability

:21:41.:21:46.

of prejudicial material on the internet, that is a real problem.

:21:46.:21:51.

On the question of corroboration again, corroboration acts as a

:21:51.:21:56.

safeguard. Many people think it has been watered down too much.

:21:56.:21:59.

Corroboration and the existence of corroborating evidence in many

:21:59.:22:03.

cases leads to people pleading guilty. Is corroboration is a

:22:03.:22:07.

requirement, pressure of work and resources on the part of the police

:22:07.:22:12.

will be -- will lead to corroboration not being sought.

:22:12.:22:15.

That will lead to an increase in the number of miscarriages of

:22:15.:22:25.
:22:25.:22:30.

justice in the court. Sandy at Rape Crisis Scotland wants to see more

:22:30.:22:32.

miscarriages of justice, but it is equally a miscarriage of justice if

:22:33.:22:36.

somebody is wrongly convicted. Thank you very much.

:22:36.:22:40.

In a moment, we will discuss what has made the newspapers today. What

:22:40.:22:50.
:22:50.:22:54.

is coming up in politics. Let's Good news on the jobs front after

:22:54.:23:00.

the collapse of sports chain JJB. The owner of meet pressing -- a

:23:00.:23:04.

meat processing plant said it will also close in a buyer is not found

:23:04.:23:06.

by February. The American tycoon Donald Trump

:23:07.:23:11.

was back in Aberdeen, saying his fight against plans for a wind farm

:23:11.:23:15.

off his new Golf resort will not be thrown off course. Scottish

:23:15.:23:17.

National Heritage drop his opposition.

:23:17.:23:22.

Some of the country's most high- profile lawyers lined up to press

:23:22.:23:26.

the off switch on televised criminal trials.

:23:26.:23:32.

Chris Hoy opened the bedroom that bears his name as the push to open

:23:32.:23:39.

be Commonwealth Games builds up. will attract people to get into the

:23:39.:23:42.

sport and produce champions of the future.

:23:42.:23:48.

Martha Payne's blog became an internet hit. She has been to

:23:48.:23:58.
:23:58.:23:59.

Malawi to see how the money she Now time to have a look at the week

:23:59.:24:09.
:24:09.:24:12.

The author Kirsty Scott and economic commentator Alf Young are

:24:12.:24:18.

here in the studio with me now. The former Auditor-General. Does it

:24:18.:24:26.

matter what he says? It matters in that the debate is moving into a

:24:26.:24:30.

different debate. We had an early stage where we said that Johann

:24:30.:24:35.

Lamont has blown it. She opened the door to the SNP and there was a lot

:24:35.:24:39.

of horse trading in the chain that. But there is a debate to be had,

:24:39.:24:43.

because, as I see it, every budget is finite. Every budget involves

:24:43.:24:48.

choices, and in a real democracy, you talk about the choices and why

:24:48.:24:54.

we have those choices. Why do we have some things that are free at

:24:54.:24:59.

point of access, and what does it cost and other areas? We need to

:24:59.:25:03.

have that debate. We are in a financial mess. The whole Western

:25:03.:25:07.

world is in a financial mess. commission the best way to

:25:07.:25:12.

regulated? We do need a debate, but I am not so sure about the

:25:12.:25:16.

commissioner. Susan Deacon was saying it area as if she was

:25:16.:25:20.

parking the issue, which might let politicians off the hook. A

:25:20.:25:27.

journalist writing in the Sunday Herald today talked in broad terms

:25:27.:25:31.

about the social contract between the Government and the people of

:25:31.:25:35.

Scotland in which these universal benefits were enshrined, but he did

:25:35.:25:40.

not seem to engage in the debate. Is it a difficult debate for which

:25:40.:25:44.

to find the right language? It has got to be framed very carefully.

:25:44.:25:54.
:25:54.:25:54.

Has that happened? No. You have got the exchanges, you saw, I don't

:25:54.:25:58.

think the arguments really take us anywhere. We need to have a debate

:25:58.:26:02.

about what we are prepared to commit a social good and public

:26:02.:26:06.

good in society, and what we expect in return. And you are saying, be

:26:06.:26:11.

honest about the price tag. Yes, and the thing about the commission,

:26:11.:26:16.

in a word, is that it is unaccountable. You do not want an

:26:16.:26:19.

and accountable commission deciding what our priorities are for us. You

:26:19.:26:23.

want a democracy where people make choices. And where politicians help

:26:23.:26:29.

make those decisions with you. the Herald today, they lead with

:26:29.:26:39.
:26:39.:26:39.

Alex Neil saying that he thinks the 24th week limit on abortions should

:26:39.:26:46.

be reduced. Already a massive storm on Twitter about this. I saw that

:26:46.:26:50.

this morning, following on from Jeremy Hunt last week. What has

:26:50.:26:54.

been missing from the debate is another middle-aged man with

:26:54.:27:03.

religious leanings deciding what women should do with their bodies!

:27:03.:27:07.

It is quite frightening, as a woman, to think we are going down this

:27:07.:27:11.

path now. Are we heading, as Patrick Harvie was heading --

:27:11.:27:16.

saying, towards the US culture on abortion rights? I saw a

:27:16.:27:19.

distressing this morning to see that story, and for him to step

:27:19.:27:24.

back and say it is a personal view is disingenuous, because he is the

:27:24.:27:28.

Health Secretary. As an elderly man are entering into this debate, why

:27:28.:27:34.

two men who do not know much about health are given responsibility for

:27:34.:27:37.

running the health service in these different parts of the United

:27:37.:27:40.

Kingdom, and the first public pronouncement they make is about

:27:40.:27:43.

their own personal views on when women should be allowed to have an

:27:43.:27:48.

abortion, it is just wrong politics, apart from anything else. They

:27:48.:27:52.

should be learning about the system they are trying to improve and

:27:52.:27:57.

doing that before they open their mouths. And they always catch it in

:27:57.:28:01.

either ideological or scientific terms and in no way do they

:28:01.:28:11.
:28:11.:28:11.

discussed women's experience. absolutely agree. David Mundell is

:28:11.:28:15.

in the newspaper saying it would be too difficult to get 16 and 17

:28:15.:28:19.

year-olds in two specific registers for the referendum vote. That

:28:19.:28:25.

really would not be unfair on the SNP's proposal. What does that mean,

:28:25.:28:29.

it is of the table? It could mean that it is off the table, but I

:28:29.:28:33.

always thought it was flawed and the first place. If you are going

:28:33.:28:37.

to give teenagers the right to vote on the future constitutional state

:28:37.:28:41.

of their nation, I have problems with that. But if you are going to

:28:41.:28:45.

give them that, they need to be given the right to vote in every

:28:45.:28:51.

election thereafter. Why not extend the franchise from 16 to 18? That

:28:51.:28:55.

is the most sensible thing to do. The response from Nicola Sturgeon's

:28:55.:28:59.

spokes people to this issue that David Mundell has raised, they said

:28:59.:29:03.

that it has been a key part of what they have been discussing and it is

:29:03.:29:06.

something they are keen to have. They do not sound completely

:29:06.:29:12.

committed to it. We are close to a done deal? We need to get it done.

:29:12.:29:14.

We need the legislation if we're going to have the vote at all.

:29:15.:29:19.

There is still that lingering other story about whether it looks like

:29:19.:29:25.

it will be yes or no. They might not want the fight happen anyway!

:29:25.:29:29.

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