21/10/2012 Sunday Politics Scotland


21/10/2012

Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser with the latest political news, interviews and debate including Home Secretary Theresa May on the plans for new Police and Crime Commissioners.


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Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics. After another shambolic

:00:39.:00:43.

week for the Government, it is fight back time. Their chosen turf

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- crimes. Ortis surprise! The Prime Minister is about to get tough on

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criminals and the elections for new police and crime commissioners are

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just three wicks away. We will talk to Theresa May about all of that.

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And about her decision not extradite Gary McKinnon to the

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United States. And with tougher regulation of the

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press, could that be good news for celebrities who abuse their fame?

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In light of the Jimmy Savile affair, Rupert Murdoch argues that point.

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But then he would, wouldn't he? We also talked to Neil Wallis.

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And another week in the thick of it for the Government. Andrew Mitchell

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and the energy policy sat -- shambles has put a smile on

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And on Sunday Politics Scotland: We'll be at the SNP conference

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asking the First Minister, Alex Salmond, what yes to NATO but no to

:01:43.:01:53.
:01:53.:01:53.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1700 seconds

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We have a first class lead at the moment and he is dealing with the

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issues very well indeed. A first- class Prime Minister. Home

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Secretary, thank you for being with us this morning.

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Now, the Jimmy Savile revelations have reignited the debate about the

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prospect of stronger price regulation. The question - will

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celebrities with secrets like Jimmy Savile be able to sleep more

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soundly if the press is cowled? We will debate the issue more widely

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but first, this. They are actors but the words are

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from working journalists. This is a new play about the press by the

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National Theatre of Scotland and the London Review of Books called

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Inquirer, and, yes, there is a real-life scene -- a scene about

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that real life Enquirer... Levison, what do we think will

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happen? Look at Hillsborough! always said from the beginning I do

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not want my report to end up on a dusty shelf! Earlier this year,

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Lord Justice Leveson heard from a host of witnesses who said their

:31:30.:31:34.

lives had been blighted by the media. He it just felt like such an

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intrusion... To such a sense of invasion, and my husband said, no,

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we have asked all of you to stay away. The editor said, we're going

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to use it anyway. Lord Justice Leveson is de polishing his script

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which will be published later in the year. One theory is he will

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recommend a new press regulator with the force of the law behind it.

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There is also a sense that the inquiry is already having an effect

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on real Life newspaper offices. think you can see examples way you

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might have expected there to have been more press coverage than there

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was. I take the example of Gary Speed, the Welsh soccer captain.

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You can have all kinds of speculation as to why he killed

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himself so that may be an example. What about speculation on the front

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pages now? For some, the story on Jimmy Savile is a warning of the

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Government being too tough on the price. It has been said the likes

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of Jimmy Savile will be further protected if we don't fight Cameron.

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So the fear is the press will be too scared to probe celebrities

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suspected of wrongdoing. The press is looking for any occasion where

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it can put forward reasonably tighter examples in the public

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interest. The cast and crew are going on tour to Belfast, but the

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big question is, where is the media heading after all of this?

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And Anne Diamond and former News of the World executive editor, Neil

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Wallis, joined me to go head to Before we begin, I should point out

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Neil Wallis is currently on police bail as part of the phone-hacking

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investigation so we cannot pose any questions related to that

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investigation. You can answer this, though. Why do you say regulation

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of the press would be good news for the Jimmy Saviles of this world but

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you never exposed this? I find that rather a fascinating question

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because what you're saying is, it will be easier if we put more

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restrictions on you. There are plenty of restrictions already in

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this country and frankly, libel and privacy is a huge stick with which

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the press can be beaten. The truth of the matter is, you take on

:34:13.:34:18.

somebody like Jimmy Savile and you try to expose him, that is a big,

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big calculation. So there is enough regulation already to inhibit

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investigative journalism? I think bringing to be -- grinning Jimmy

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Savile again after the Leveson Inquiry is a red herring. I do not

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see anything wrong at all with the price being asked, now that they

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have proved themselves of 25, 30, even more years of the inability to

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suffer Gillett, the argument now is of some sort of statutory

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regulation. -- inability to self regulate. Let's give it a go.

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problem with bringing statute in, it is a bit like losing your

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virginity. You know... You can only lose it wants. Once you let the

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politicians get their hands on the Leeds of authority whose job it is

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to hold legislative into account, they will get the press that they

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want rather than the press they deserve. I find it interesting use

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the word authority because that is what we have not had. If you are an

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owner like Rupert Murdoch it has been about money and about the

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desire to sell stories that sell newspapers. It has been about

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profit. If you have been in your position where you have been quite

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high up editorially, it is about power. Not about authority. What we

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do need now is some sort of press which actually does have integrity.

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You have had huge power, as Anne Diamond says, but you have been

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interested in titillating gossip about celebrities rather than

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uncovering real role going like Jimmy Savile. Sometimes. Lots of

:36:15.:36:21.

times. No. Lots of times we have exposed a whole variety of very

:36:21.:36:26.

unsavoury activities amongst politicians. Now, do you believe we

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should about those sorts of politicians to decide the sort of

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press we have? Just this week we have the Telegraph story about how

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MPs of renting out their own flats to each other, then hiring flats at

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the tax payer's expense. And who revealed that? The press revealed

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that. Yes, and if you believe we have too much regulation, those

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other kind of stories they will put in. They will put rules in place to

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stop that coming out. I have worked in journalism and media all my

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life... It hasn't stopped. It does a lot of investigative work.

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didn't do the expenses scandal. They have done plenty of other very

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good journalism. Yes, they have. The fundamental weakness of your

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argument is you keep saying any sort of regulation that is not self

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regulation, which, by the way, has not worked, is a form of gagging

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the press. It doesn't have to mean that. If but the broadcasters did

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hacking. The breasted hacking as well. But the point is, and you

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know this well -- the press did hacking. It is still within the

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bounds of statutory regulation. Has it worked? No, it has not. You were

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angry at Sun when you published a photograph of Anne Diamond's son's

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funeral for which you did not have permission. And then you argued it

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was part of a cot death campaign. I think most people would argue it is

:38:15.:38:25.
:38:25.:38:25.

good you should not do that. This is an unfortunate example because

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her memory of this and my memory, and I was involved in this heavily,

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are simply different. It might be because of time but how she has

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recalled what happened is very different from how I recalled it

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but I do remember that the campaign we did together that she did with

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Sun and talked about just a year ago as one of the highlights of her

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career was that it was enormously effective. It was an example of

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where the press can do real good but regulation would not have

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stopped that either. I think we need tighter regulation. I think 20

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years ago I would not have argued for statutory regulation but having

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given experience that I and others have had, I think maybe now has

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come the time. Let's try it and see. Do you think this is what Lord

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Leveson will come out with? I have sat with him twice and it is plain

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to me he had no sympathy whatsoever with the tabloid press. You have to

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remember you regulate the tabloid, you regulate the entire print media.

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We have done the argument. Do you think it will happen? Yes, I do.

:39:39.:39:49.
:39:49.:39:51.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up on the

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programme: The SNP goes for pragmatism on a

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key conference vote. What is the wider fall-out from their no-to-

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nuclear-yes-to-NATO decision? can now be certain the independence

:40:02.:40:06.

referendum will take place in two years' time and the party is

:40:06.:40:12.

desperate to win it. How did they get on at Conference? Join me later

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to find out. We'll be speaking to the First

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Minister live in Perth. And the Lib Dems come up with a new

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Home Rule prospectus two days after the Edinburgh Agreement is signed.

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And we'll be hearing from the DUP and Plaid Cymru on the potential

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benefits or disadvantages for Stormont and Cardiff from our

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devolution debate. The Scottish National Party leader,

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Alex Salmond, has warned a No vote in the independence referendum will

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secure nothing for Scotland. The First Minister was addressing his

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Party Conference in Perth just days after signing a deal with the UK

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Government to guarantee an independence referendum takes place

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in the Autumn of 2014. Here's our political correspondent, Raymond

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Buchanan. Time is ticking. There are 24

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months ago. Scotland's constitutional destiny now has a

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date. Autumn 2014 will see the independence question asked and

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answered. And how this party uses that tie will be absolutely crucial.

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Opinion polls suggest Scotland will go for a name to vote for

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independence. This Conference has been all about seduction. Winning

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over more voters. Forwards, perhaps, but first some reassurance and

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persuasion. It Alex Salmond spent much of his speech appealing to

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voters to back more powers of Holyrood if not full independence.

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We know there are many of our fellow-citizens who remain to be

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convinced about the merits of independence. But we also know

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there is a majority for change in this country. The choice before us

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is now clear. Scotland can vote no and secure nothing. Or we can vote

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yes to get the platform we need. So we speak today to those millions of

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our fellow citizens who say yes to Scotland before and will say yes to

:42:09.:42:14.

Scotland, yes to progress once again. To help persuade them, he

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contrasted his government's performance with that of the

:42:17.:42:24.

coalition. Why on earth do we allow this bunch of incompetent and Lords

:42:24.:42:32.

Moody's to be in positions of a authority over our country? -- Lord

:42:32.:42:40.

snootys? And that has been one of the central picture. If you can

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trust the Scottish Government to run health and education, why do

:42:46.:42:54.

not tax and politics as well? contribute 9.6% of taxation but get

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back 9.3%. More than �1,000 for every household in the country is

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contributed. With access to our own resources, we can invest more,

:43:09.:43:14.

borrow less to save for the future, protect services or a combination

:43:15.:43:19.

of the three. We know he wants to borrow to spend on capital

:43:19.:43:25.

expenditure product -- projects while protecting public services

:43:25.:43:29.

and businesses. One thing they will not be investing in his atomic

:43:29.:43:36.

weapons. The party restated its belief for a nuclear-3 Scotland.

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But they backed membership of the NATO nuclear alliance. -- for a

:43:42.:43:48.

nuclear-free Scotland. It is not enough to say you believe in

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independence and then say you want to belong to NATO. As far as I am

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concerned, it is hypocritical to say we should not have these

:43:58.:44:02.

weapons but want to belong to NATO. How dare we say that! We are in

:44:02.:44:07.

Scotland, we will be an independent country, we don't want Trident or

:44:07.:44:11.

nuclear weapons, but as I've said before, if you want to go along to

:44:11.:44:21.
:44:21.:44:23.

we club that supports nuclear weapons. -- we want to go along.

:44:23.:44:27.

The leadership's new NATO policy looked in trouble. The

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reinforcements were sent in in the shape of Kenny MacAskill, the

:44:31.:44:36.

Justice Secretary who freed the Lockerbie bomber. I am no US poster

:44:36.:44:46.
:44:46.:44:54.

And I am certainly no US lap dog. There's probably a few senators

:44:54.:44:58.

still hunting me. But we have moved on from being a party of protest to

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a party of power. I have marched for CND, I have protested against

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Trident, I have demonstrated against the Iraq war. I am tired

:45:08.:45:12.

margin. I want a seat for our government in the situations of

:45:12.:45:17.

power. They are not there yet, though, but be in no doubt - the

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hard sell has begun. Will Mr Salmond prove a suitably success

:45:22.:45:28.

will salesman for the Yes campaign? We can cross live now to Perth,

:45:28.:45:32.

where the First Minister joins us from Conference. Thank you for

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talking to us this morning. Good morning, Isabel. I am speaking from

:45:38.:45:42.

the National Geographic Society in Scotland. It is a fantastic place.

:45:42.:45:46.

I did not know it was here. If you get a chance to visit, do come

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along! Thank you for that. You know this morning a sizable number of

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your supporters and ministers think you are a hypocrite and the SNP

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leadership are hypocrites who sold out a dearly held principle to

:46:02.:46:08.

chase boat. That must be a very uncomfortable place to be? -- to

:46:08.:46:15.

chase votes. Not in the slightest. It was refreshing to see these

:46:15.:46:18.

debates at Conference. The arguments were put and genuinely

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held and there was a democratic discussion with a democratic result.

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The result is in and I think the party is very comfortable with that,

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as witness to the reception given to my speech yesterday when I said

:46:32.:46:35.

exactly then what I have said to you now. But just to clarify the

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position, you were saying there would be, in an independent

:46:41.:46:44.

Scotland, and explicit ban on nuclear weapons being based on

:46:44.:46:50.

Scottish territory. What does that mean for NATO's subs been allowed

:46:50.:46:57.

access to Scottish territorial waters? Isabel, 25 out of the 28

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member countries of NATO are non- nuclear members of the North

:47:01.:47:06.

Atlantic treaty Organisation. There is nothing exceptional about the

:47:06.:47:10.

status we want to aspire to for Scotland. We are going to remove

:47:10.:47:15.

the Trident nuclear weapons from Scotland. The issue about the

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waters, no country ever confirms the existence of nuclear weapons of

:47:19.:47:24.

its warships. That is well known. It is an issue which all non-

:47:24.:47:34.

nuclear countries have to face up to and they do the exactly the same

:47:34.:47:43.

thing. So you will have no policy on nuclear weapons in Scottish

:47:43.:47:48.

waters? No. We bomb-maker to constitutional provision double

:47:48.:47:53.

rent Scotland having possession. -- we will make it a constitutional

:47:53.:47:59.

provision. We will save about �250 million a vital Scottish

:47:59.:48:04.

expenditure. It will be for the rest of the UK to decide whether it

:48:04.:48:08.

wants to station these weapons elsewhere or make a much more

:48:08.:48:12.

sensible decision, which would be to decommission them. And this is

:48:12.:48:18.

the biggest, single biggest, step towards nuclear disarmament.

:48:18.:48:22.

Certainly the people of Scotland can have and a bronze. I cannot

:48:22.:48:29.

wish away US nuclear weapons but I can legislate a way Trident nuclear

:48:29.:48:34.

weapons from Scotland. I am trying to establish how far you would be

:48:34.:48:38.

compromised in this non-nuclear stance. Will you do nothing to

:48:38.:48:42.

satisfy yourself as to whether NATO's sobs coming into Scottish

:48:42.:48:46.

territorial waters have nuclear arms, or are you saying you will

:48:46.:48:52.

allow other countries for reasons of safe haven or exercises or

:48:52.:48:58.

manoeuvres, you will allow them? am saying we will begin the same

:48:58.:49:07.

position as the other non-nuclear members of NATO. We will have the

:49:07.:49:12.

same policy as the other countries because announcement of position is

:49:12.:49:18.

just not done. So you will allow them in on exercises? I was just

:49:18.:49:24.

explain the policy to you, that no country ever confirms or denies the

:49:24.:49:28.

existence of nuclear warships. We will have the same position as

:49:28.:49:33.

other countries in NATO. If this argument has unusual or strange

:49:33.:49:39.

policy, however at -- Hull is it an unusual or strange policy for these

:49:39.:49:46.

other countries? -- how is it? An agreement is that this is a

:49:46.:49:50.

perfectly sensible policy which is practised by other countries. Other

:49:50.:49:53.

countries, incidentally, which will do us Scotland will do have

:49:53.:50:01.

according to the terms of the motion, which is that we have to

:50:01.:50:05.

advocate all countries respect the agreements they have signed and a

:50:05.:50:08.

nuclear Non-Proliferation. That will be Scott and campaigning

:50:08.:50:12.

against nuclear weapons and removing weapons of mass to squat -

:50:12.:50:22.
:50:22.:50:24.

- must destruction. -- Scotland campaigning. You are unable to say

:50:24.:50:30.

whether Scotland will do this or not and you say they will go along

:50:30.:50:36.

with what other NATO countries have? Yes, in the same way as

:50:36.:50:40.

Canada and Norway, and as you probably know, both these countries

:50:40.:50:44.

have communicated very recently their strong opposition to nuclear

:50:44.:50:48.

weapons in a very principled way, and that will be the exactly the

:50:48.:50:55.

same position Scott and aspires to. We will get rid of Trident, weapons

:50:55.:51:00.

of mass destruction, and we will do it for the economic and social

:51:00.:51:05.

benefit for the Scottish people. That seems to be a very wise policy.

:51:05.:51:09.

If we look at the relative fiscal balance between Scotland and the

:51:09.:51:14.

rest of the UK, you said every Scot would be �500 better off after

:51:14.:51:18.

independence. The fact of the matter is, we have this massive

:51:18.:51:23.

fiscal deficit and we upped our eyes in debt. This is and �500 cash

:51:23.:51:33.
:51:33.:51:43.

I have set with the fiscally it stronger position you could invest

:51:43.:51:51.

more, Baroness and say for the future and protect vital services.

:51:51.:51:58.

It is a fact that Scotland's fiscal position in the last estimation in

:51:58.:52:03.

2010 was 2.7 billion stronger than that of the UK. As First Minister

:52:03.:52:09.

now I could do with �2.7 billion by the to borrow less or invest more

:52:09.:52:14.

in the Scottish economy. You do not think this money has to go into

:52:14.:52:21.

paying down the deficit? Well, I have explained we have to 0.7

:52:21.:52:26.

billion with a range of choices, you could invest more, borrowed

:52:26.:52:31.

less and save or you could protect vital Scottish public services or a

:52:31.:52:37.

combination. What about the deficit? That would be in the

:52:37.:52:43.

borrowing less aspects of that. We pay for the deficit in the fiscal

:52:43.:52:48.

calculation. That is within the figures. This is statement of fact.

:52:48.:52:53.

On the last estimation a Scotland was in a relatively stronger

:52:53.:52:58.

position to the rest of the UK to the tune of 2.7 billion because we

:52:58.:53:06.

paid 9.6% of the UK revenue and only receive 9.3% expenditure. That

:53:06.:53:12.

is the equivalent of �500 for every man, woman and child in Scotland or

:53:12.:53:17.

a �1,000 for every family. That would be deployed by investing more,

:53:17.:53:21.

protecting public services or a combination of all of them. That

:53:21.:53:25.

would give a Scottish government more fiscal flexibility than the UK

:53:25.:53:30.

government says it possesses a prison moment. In terms of getting

:53:30.:53:35.

the borrowing rates, getting the fiscal deficit down and securing a

:53:35.:53:39.

good borrowing rate, if you're not paint and a deficit quickly the

:53:39.:53:46.

argument is the market's thump you and you get a bad credit rating. In

:53:46.:53:52.

Scotland on Sunday the Treasury's senior civil servant says an

:53:52.:53:57.

independent Scotland would pay high interest rates than the UK as it

:53:57.:54:01.

seeks to convince the world's investors it is a safe bet. Unless

:54:01.:54:06.

you pay down the deficit quickly, you feed into this idea that you're

:54:06.:54:13.

not a safe bet. No, I prefer the world where senior civil servants

:54:13.:54:22.

did not act is mouthpieces for ministers. Scotland is in a

:54:22.:54:28.

stronger fiscal position and the rest of the UK. People look at a

:54:28.:54:33.

fiscal position and a look at the prospects for the future. A major

:54:33.:54:40.

thing Scotland has relative to its size is a huge collateral of almost

:54:40.:54:43.

$2 billion of the future estimations of the wealth of North

:54:43.:54:48.

Sea oil and gas. Two trillion dollars, that's two trillion

:54:48.:54:53.

dollars. It's a huge amount of collateral so the current stronger

:54:53.:54:57.

fiscal balance and the collateral for the future we have secured

:54:57.:55:02.

Scotland and effective credit rating. One of the agencies made a

:55:02.:55:07.

point earlier that because the price of gas and oil is high, there

:55:07.:55:13.

are uncertainties about fixing what would be a borrowing rate. Well,

:55:13.:55:23.

the point is that the estimation, $100 real oil prices, lower than at

:55:23.:55:27.

the prison moment going forward, two trillion dollars is a

:55:27.:55:30.

reasonable estimate but if people look at collateral for the future,

:55:30.:55:38.

why is that more important? Two trillion Clare Short for Scotland

:55:38.:55:44.

is roughly 10 times the collateral the UK has a prison moment. If you

:55:44.:55:49.

are talking about a stronger fiscal position and the collateral for the

:55:49.:55:54.

future you're talking about an effective and promising position

:55:54.:55:59.

for Scotland. Where Scotland ends up depends on the wisdom of the

:55:59.:56:03.

policies were pursue and our case is the austerity policies of the UK

:56:03.:56:07.

Government are not working, we eat capital investments in the economy

:56:07.:56:13.

to push growth forward, economic growth will reinforce the fiscal

:56:13.:56:18.

balance and reinforce the strength of the Scottish economy as well as

:56:18.:56:25.

benefiting every family in Scotland. But another point is if you have a

:56:25.:56:29.

currency union you cannot have too much divergence because the markets

:56:29.:56:38.

will punish up. Well, we refer to the same point, I am yet to hear a

:56:38.:56:44.

refutation of it, if you borrow the same, and reality 0.7 billion

:56:44.:56:50.

better balance, you have flexibility of �2.7 billion. It

:56:50.:56:54.

will be interesting to see what 2011 and 12 will be. It might be

:56:54.:57:00.

greater. Let's see when the figures come out. Scotland will have a

:57:00.:57:05.

range of flexibility that the UK Chancellor says he doesn't have

:57:05.:57:09.

although my argument would be he should emphasise a per capita

:57:09.:57:13.

investment into the economy to generate growth and future growth.

:57:13.:57:18.

In terms of the fiscal pact, we see it as a one-way street but it would

:57:18.:57:23.

be in Scotland's interests to have limits on borrowing and liability

:57:23.:57:29.

in case a defaults in London. If a London bank fails we want

:57:29.:57:37.

reassurances. We propose that having the sterling zone is

:57:37.:57:42.

convenient and the right policy for Scotland and the productivity rates

:57:42.:57:48.

and the things that matter about a currency zone, the productivity

:57:48.:57:52.

position between the two countries, they are roughly aligned between

:57:52.:57:59.

Scotland and England. They are basically the same. There is no

:57:59.:58:04.

doubt there are advantages for both sides. The advantage for Scotland

:58:04.:58:11.

is continuity and independence, the advantage for the rest of the UK is

:58:11.:58:15.

while the revenues from Scottish oil and gas accrue to the Scottish

:58:15.:58:19.

Exchequer, if Scotland is in a currency union the protection or

:58:19.:58:24.

oil offers to the balance of payments, �30 billion, or would

:58:24.:58:30.

accrue to the whole sterling area. Any event and government will bite

:58:30.:58:34.

our hands off to have a sterling zone given that protection. It is

:58:34.:58:39.

vital for the rest of the UK as well as being a matter of

:58:39.:58:48.

convenience. It is the case that the levels are similar but what's

:58:48.:58:54.

interesting is that not what's been punished in Europe. In Europe,

:58:54.:59:01.

Major in discipline in spending patterns. But a fair point. The

:59:01.:59:08.

underlying tension in the euro is the differences in divergence, 40%

:59:09.:59:15.

between the heart of Germany and Greece. But what makes the euro

:59:15.:59:25.
:59:25.:59:33.

Up what's important is the Fiscal Commission the SNP have

:59:33.:59:40.

commissioned which puts us to noble Moritz. Will operate in the best

:59:40.:59:48.

interests of Scotland. It is going on for the referendum as the Yes

:59:48.:59:53.

side is closing the gap. Alex Salmond, thank you for joining us

:59:53.:00:03.
:00:03.:00:08.

this morning. Now, over to London David Cameron it is to set out a

:00:08.:00:12.

new approach to law and order promising the government will be

:00:12.:00:17.

tough but intelligent the stock in a speech tomorrow he will reveal

:00:17.:00:20.

plans to increase the use of payment by results for groups

:00:20.:00:28.

hoping to rehabilitate offenders. Earlier, the Home Secretary said

:00:28.:00:33.

another airier would-be gun crime. If you look at organised crime

:00:33.:00:37.

gangs, one of the issues is there are middlemen who take firearms and

:00:37.:00:43.

rent them out to criminals who use them. There isn't an offence for

:00:43.:00:47.

somebody to possess a firearm with intent to supply it someone else.

:00:47.:00:51.

It is right we introduced the offence because does supply and the

:00:51.:00:55.

firearms are as guilty as the ones using it. Funerals are taking place

:00:55.:01:02.

of those killed in Friday's car bombing in Lebanon. The attacking a

:01:02.:01:06.

route is being blamed on Syria and there are calls for mass protests

:01:06.:01:13.

today. Live to our correspondent in Beirut.

:01:13.:01:18.

There are thousands of protesters and mourners in the heart of a

:01:18.:01:22.

routes Square. Not just to mark the passing of the country's

:01:22.:01:26.

intelligence chief who was killed in a car bomb but to protest

:01:26.:01:29.

against the excesses of what they see as the Syrian regime in

:01:29.:01:34.

Lebanese politics. Such a car bomb had not been seen here for four

:01:34.:01:37.

years and many fear what is happening in Syria is being

:01:37.:01:43.

replicated in Lebanon. There have been clashes on the streets between

:01:43.:01:47.

pro and anti- Syrian factions and fear for many is the clashes will

:01:47.:01:53.

return and Lebanon will get drawn into the politics of neigh being --

:01:53.:01:57.

neighbouring Syria. A call for serious to get out of Lebanese

:01:57.:02:04.

politics and to mourn the passing of a man he was anti- Syrian.

:02:04.:02:08.

At least 10 people are reported to have been killed when a car bomb

:02:08.:02:12.

exploded in at the Syrian capital Damascus. Syrian state media said

:02:12.:02:16.

it happened outside a police station. It came as the President

:02:16.:02:20.

was meeting the UN and Arab League envoy who has attempted to

:02:21.:02:29.

negotiate a ceasefire. The former BBC director-general Greg Dyke has

:02:29.:02:32.

criticised the corporation's handling of the allegations that

:02:32.:02:36.

Sir Jimmy Savile abused children. He said the BBC was slow to realise

:02:36.:02:43.

the seriousness of the standard. The BBC made too early mistakes,

:02:43.:02:47.

the first statements about this were not strong enough and were not

:02:47.:02:52.

saying this is a serious issue and needs to be examined. That was a

:02:52.:02:58.

mistake. The second one was when they started saying the Newsnight

:02:58.:03:04.

programme was not shown for editorial reasons, you needed to

:03:04.:03:09.

explain what they were. Why to the editor of Newsnight decided this

:03:09.:03:15.

was not a strong enough programme to be broadcast? I suspect he did

:03:15.:03:18.

not think the evidence was strong enough but someone needs to say

:03:18.:03:23.

that. Nobody did. That's all the news for now. More

:03:23.:03:33.
:03:33.:03:37.

news on BBC One at 6pm. Good afternoon. The deputy First

:03:37.:03:39.

Minister Nicola Sturgeon will challenge the Chancellor this

:03:39.:03:41.

afternoon to change tack on economic policy in an effort to

:03:41.:03:45.

stimulate growth. Ms Sturgeon will make the call on the final day of

:03:45.:03:47.

the SNP conference in Perth. Here's Laura Maxwell.

:03:47.:03:51.

The Commonwealth Games village under construction in Glasgow.

:03:51.:03:54.

Nicola Sturgeon will tell conference only more big projects

:03:54.:03:57.

at this can put a halt to Scotland's rising unemployment

:03:57.:04:02.

figures. She was a George Osborne must use his Autumn Statement to

:04:02.:04:07.

pump money into capital projects like roads, and hospitals up to

:04:07.:04:12.

offer the unemployed lights at the end of the tunnel. Critics claim

:04:12.:04:14.

the government must claimed responsibility for the latest

:04:14.:04:19.

jobless figures. Nicola Sturgeon will tell delegates ministers here

:04:19.:04:22.

are doing everything possible within the constraints of

:04:22.:04:26.

devolution. Scottish businesses are less likely to enter insolvency

:04:26.:04:30.

than those in the rest of Britain - - according to new research. Data

:04:30.:04:33.

released by Creditsafe said firms in Scotland have a 7 per cent

:04:33.:04:38.

higher average credit rating than those in England and Wales.

:04:38.:04:41.

The centenary of the death of a Greenock-born Antarctic explorer is

:04:41.:04:45.

being remembered in Inverkip. Henry 'Birdie' Bowers died with Captain

:04:45.:04:48.

Scott on their return from the South Pole in 1912. Sir Ranulph

:04:48.:04:51.

Fiennes and Scott's grandson, Falcon, will meet at Kip Marina

:04:51.:04:58.

this afternoon. Now let's take a look at the

:04:58.:05:03.

weather forecast, here's Judith. weather forecast, here's Judith.

:05:03.:05:07.

Good afternoon. A fine afternoon coming up for most of us, certainly

:05:07.:05:11.

it is dry with lovely spells of sunshine across the country. We

:05:11.:05:18.

still have patches of mist and fog in low-lying areas which may be

:05:18.:05:23.

stubborn to clear. That the cloud across student with up rates of

:05:23.:05:30.

rain later. -- outbreaks of clout across Shetland. Light wind with a

:05:30.:05:34.

fresh southerly feel. That's the forecast. That's it for the moment.

:05:34.:05:44.
:05:44.:05:48.

No sooner had the Edinburgh Agreement been signed, sealed and

:05:48.:05:51.

delivered, than the Liberal Democrats came out with their

:05:51.:05:54.

blueprint for Scottish Home Rule, or in other words, more powers if

:05:54.:05:57.

you vote No. But wasn't that what the pro-Unionist parties had just

:05:57.:05:59.

agreed not to include in the referendum? Tim Reid reports from

:05:59.:06:01.

Westminster. For the autumn colours have arrived

:06:01.:06:04.

at Westminster and with the changing season, the very real

:06:04.:06:10.

possibility of more constitutional upheaval. If the leaves change

:06:10.:06:13.

colour here in two years' time, the political landscape may look very

:06:13.:06:20.

different. With the referendum signed, we could be looking at the

:06:20.:06:29.

beginning of the end of the United Kingdom. Going there well around

:06:29.:06:33.

the bend... The former Olympic sprinter it so Ming Campbell has

:06:33.:06:43.
:06:43.:06:51.

raced ahead delivering an updated The federal UK Parliament would

:06:51.:06:57.

retain control of the defence, foreign affairs and pensions. And

:06:58.:07:01.

they say the West Lothian question is only answered by giving England

:07:01.:07:06.

similar powers over their own affairs. They are proposing a

:07:06.:07:12.

fairly modest and rather fiscally unstable package of tax devolution

:07:12.:07:19.

and they are proposing to join up the dogs by a reinvigorated

:07:19.:07:22.

emphasis on inter-governmental relations and co-ordination. This

:07:22.:07:27.

would help but does not deal with the fact that you have not decided

:07:27.:07:29.

to reopen the question of the division of powers, which is

:07:29.:07:35.

clearly what the people of Scotland want. And how will voters react

:07:35.:07:39.

given Lib Dem leadership argued against a second devo max question

:07:39.:07:47.

on the ballot paper? Opponents say the argument is flawed. Westminster

:07:47.:07:51.

would continue to pay the social security bills, which are twice the

:07:51.:07:56.

revenues. Scotland and the Scottish Parliament would decide inheritance

:07:56.:08:02.

tax, it at -- capital gains tax and that would leave Scotland has the

:08:02.:08:08.

highest taxed part of the United Kingdom. When you look at all of

:08:08.:08:12.

the powers, devo max, whatever, and realise that is contained within

:08:12.:08:15.

independence but the things they want moved from Westminster to

:08:15.:08:21.

Holyrood are not contained I think the 30% to have yet to make their

:08:21.:08:31.
:08:31.:08:35.

Welfare and defence would remain at Westminster and a written UK. --

:08:35.:08:40.

constitution has been proposed. But since William Gladstone came up

:08:41.:08:48.

with home rule there is still little backing for a federal system.

:08:48.:08:51.

It makes me feel trying to impose regional assemblies on England is

:08:51.:08:55.

not going to work. While Scottish Tories are not considering further

:08:55.:09:00.

powers yet, Labour is aware of Scotland's apparent desire for

:09:00.:09:05.

further devolution but it also opposed another devo max question

:09:05.:09:10.

on the paper. They needed clear answer. That principle decides

:09:10.:09:20.

everything else. Otherwise it will be confusing. Sir Ming Campbell's

:09:20.:09:28.

proposals would alter her radically the proposal for the United Kingdom.

:09:28.:09:32.

Of course, there are only worth the paper they're written on. With

:09:32.:09:40.

Scotland votes no to independence, they will be the central plank of

:09:40.:09:44.

the Lib Dem manifesto. Well, in our Edinburgh studio is

:09:44.:09:46.

Sir Ming Campbell, the former leader of the Liberal Democrats and

:09:46.:09:50.

member of the Foreign Affairs Select Committee. Thank you for

:09:50.:09:55.

talking to us today. How do you respond to the comments that what

:09:55.:09:58.

your commission is proposing is roaring back on where the Lib Dems

:09:58.:10:03.

have got to with the steel Commission, particularly in terms

:10:03.:10:09.

of devolving and oil and gas revenues to Scotland? We made it

:10:09.:10:13.

clear we wanted to put flesh on the bones of the traditional liberal

:10:13.:10:17.

and Lib Dem policies of home rule all round. That is what we have

:10:17.:10:23.

done. We have taken account of the changing circumstances since the

:10:23.:10:27.

still Commission reported and we have produced what he described as

:10:27.:10:33.

a blueprint. It is a rude towards federalism for the whole of the

:10:34.:10:43.
:10:44.:10:44.

United Kingdom recognising -- it is a route, recognising this is

:10:44.:10:46.

sustainable and for Northern Ireland of Wales there is a similar

:10:46.:10:49.

desire for the kind of control federalism would give over their

:10:49.:10:57.

domestic arrangements. But England seems particularly resistant to any

:10:57.:11:02.

sort of federal witch? You say that but you don't have to go very far

:11:02.:11:07.

to meet Conservative backbenchers to say that if Scotland, Wales and

:11:07.:11:11.

Northern Ireland are having much more domestic responsibility, then

:11:11.:11:14.

why should people from these parts of the United Kingdom have the

:11:14.:11:19.

right to vote on English education? It is not just the West Lothian

:11:19.:11:25.

question, it is the West Belfast question and the West Wales

:11:25.:11:30.

question. I have no doubt whatsoever there is a continuing

:11:30.:11:33.

and increasing view in England but when it comes to domestic English

:11:33.:11:36.

matters, these ought to be dealt with in a way which does not

:11:36.:11:41.

involve those of us who represent constituencies outside of England

:11:41.:11:45.

from determining policy. If we look at the sort of powers which could

:11:45.:11:49.

have come to Scotland and that could come to Scotland and the role

:11:49.:11:53.

and positioning of the Lib Dems in that, the Lib Dems could have given

:11:53.:11:59.

a party political mandate to the second question. They could have

:11:59.:12:06.

defined a proposition between something that attracts a great

:12:06.:12:16.
:12:16.:12:18.

deal of support. Not at all. The big issue is, are we going to be

:12:18.:12:22.

independent? Are we going to, and I know the nationalists don't like

:12:22.:12:26.

the word, are we going to separate ourselves from the rest of the

:12:26.:12:30.

United Kingdom? That is an issue which lies right at the heart of

:12:30.:12:34.

this debate and an issue which has to be resolved. Resolved it and in

:12:34.:12:38.

a way that I will argue we should remain part of the United Kingdom,

:12:38.:12:43.

and then you can have the kind of discussion which will question

:12:43.:12:48.

implies. Is it devo max? Is it devotes like? Is it federalism?

:12:48.:12:52.

That is the point at which you can have that discussion, and Lord

:12:52.:12:56.

Tommy McAvoy is quite right that if these multiple choices have been

:12:57.:13:03.

put in the referendum debate and in the ballot paper, which we will see

:13:03.:13:07.

in two years' time, then they might well have obscured the central

:13:07.:13:13.

issue, do we want to be separate or United? OK. You are also leader of

:13:13.:13:18.

the UK delegation to NATO's parliamentary assembly. I wanted to

:13:18.:13:24.

ask you about the SNP vote in that regard. What you think NATO's

:13:24.:13:28.

response will be to this idea that an independent Scotland can be in

:13:28.:13:33.

NATO but what have no nuclear weapons on Scottish soil? I have

:13:33.:13:37.

actually brought the piece of paper with me so I could be entirely

:13:37.:13:42.

accurate are more time going to save. Every four, five years NATO

:13:42.:13:46.

creates what it calls a strategic concept, so it sets out its

:13:46.:13:52.

objectives. In 2010, he NATO said it reconfirm satyr as long as there

:13:52.:14:00.

are nuclear weapons in the world, and a -- and NATO will remain a

:14:00.:14:03.

nuclear alliance. I understand people wholly opposed to nuclear

:14:03.:14:08.

weapons. I respect their opinion. Like the Church of Scotland. I

:14:08.:14:11.

respect those who say these weapons are immoral and we should have no

:14:11.:14:15.

part of them. What I don't understand is that those who say

:14:15.:14:19.

that is their position but then want to join an alliance which is a

:14:19.:14:23.

nuclear alliance and will remain so as long as there are nuclear

:14:23.:14:27.

weapons in the world according to its own objectives. What will the

:14:27.:14:35.

NATO response be to this? They might regard this conversion with a

:14:35.:14:39.

certain amount of reserve because I think I am correct in remembering

:14:39.:14:43.

that when Mr Salmond was asked to comment on the steps being taken by

:14:43.:14:51.

NATO to deal with the terrible, barbaric ethnic cleansing in Kosovo,

:14:51.:14:56.

my recollection is that Mr Salmond described that as an act of

:14:56.:15:06.
:15:06.:15:07.

unparalleled for leave. -- unparalleled folly. Article 5 of

:15:07.:15:11.

the North Atlantic treaty, which is the basis of NATO, says quite

:15:11.:15:15.

expressly that an attack upon one is to be treated as an attack on

:15:15.:15:21.

all members of NATO. Is the Scottish National Party willing to

:15:21.:15:25.

accept that? They only have to accept it if it is UN-sanctioned as

:15:25.:15:34.

well. That is what they say but what the treaty says, it doesn't

:15:34.:15:39.

have any qualification about the UN sanctions and responsibilities or

:15:39.:15:43.

even authority. It certainly says an attack upon one will be treated

:15:43.:15:49.

as an attack upon all. It is something they will accept? If not,

:15:49.:15:58.

you have to ask yourselves whether NATO would be willing to accept

:15:58.:16:08.
:16:08.:16:10.

their application of? As we have been hearing, there, reform is not

:16:10.:16:20.
:16:20.:16:20.

just a Scotland-England issue. The referendum is big news in

:16:20.:16:25.

Scotland but it is also hitting the headlines in Wales. What does it

:16:25.:16:32.

mean for us in Wales? Well, it is a big debate... The National

:16:32.:16:35.

Assembly's First Minister says he would regret seeing Scotland leave

:16:35.:16:41.

the union. He is worried Wales would be dominated by English MPs

:16:41.:16:44.

at Westminster. Meanwhile, Plaid Cymru said they could have their

:16:44.:16:49.

own referendum if they win the next two elections. But that might be

:16:49.:16:55.

somewhere off. A reason poll but support for separating Wales at

:16:55.:17:05.
:17:05.:17:06.

just 7%. It is now up to him and this House to unite in a campaign

:17:06.:17:15.

to maintain sustained and support the Union and keep McNeill and him

:17:15.:17:20.

with us forever! I hope politicians of all parties will agree to share

:17:20.:17:24.

platforms together. I have always wanted to share a platform with Ian

:17:24.:17:29.

Paisley. Maybe I'll get my chance! Stormont appear to be staying out

:17:29.:17:35.

of the debate at the moment. Gerry Adams once a date set on Irish

:17:35.:17:37.

unity, saying the Scottish referendum puts a whole structure

:17:38.:17:43.

of the UK are up for debate. We can now speak to Ian Paisley

:17:44.:17:52.

Junior, who represents North Antrim for the Democratic Unionist Party.

:17:52.:17:55.

And then signed as Thomas's constituency is in Mid and West

:17:55.:18:05.
:18:05.:18:07.

Wales. Here -- and then Simon Thomas. Does this mean the soaked -

:18:07.:18:14.

- status quo for Wales is no longer an option? Last year, we won a

:18:14.:18:17.

referendum hands out of other powers and we see now with the

:18:17.:18:20.

Scottish independence referendum that the days of the current UK

:18:20.:18:24.

government set out events in Ireland 90 years ago and that is at

:18:24.:18:27.

an end. We have to rig a bigger the relationship between the

:18:27.:18:37.
:18:37.:18:48.

constituent parts of the UK. -- we Her we look forward to that debate

:18:48.:18:52.

and we are having a debate which has taken Wales forward and take

:18:52.:18:56.

different place but it is the same kind of debate. Let me ask you

:18:56.:19:00.

about some of the practical repercussions for Northern Ireland.

:19:00.:19:05.

Winner instalment we have agreement that the one corporation tax

:19:05.:19:15.
:19:15.:19:19.

devolved to Stormont. -- with the re-install mind. -- with a real

:19:19.:19:28.

I take issue. The United Kingdom is only as strong as each component

:19:28.:19:38.
:19:38.:19:43.

part. -- I take this view. We share a land border with the -- with

:19:43.:19:48.

another country that has the lowest tax. Those peculiarities have to be

:19:48.:19:55.

adapted. If each is strong then we are together strong. I do not want

:19:55.:20:00.

to be part of a wee Northern Ireland as I do not think people

:20:00.:20:06.

want to be part of a wee Scotland or a wee Wales. We have the vision

:20:06.:20:09.

and things have to be done differently in each area to make

:20:09.:20:13.

the family work but a nation nonetheless of peoples that make us

:20:13.:20:18.

strong and diverse. Do you think there is a problem in arguing your

:20:19.:20:27.

case at the moment? No, and I will tell you why. And we get an amount

:20:27.:20:31.

of money to out run of an island. Because of the legacy of 40 years

:20:31.:20:41.
:20:41.:20:43.

of terrorist violence, -- to run Northern Ireland. To do the similar

:20:43.:20:49.

deal in Scotland would cost them multiples of billions of pounds

:20:49.:20:53.

because their economy is so much stronger than ours, so wouldn't it

:20:53.:20:59.

be worth their while? And Scotland would want to see corporation tax

:20:59.:21:04.

reduced. We want to compete with a country that has the same land

:21:04.:21:08.

border of corporation tax at 12%. The idea is to reduce the

:21:08.:21:13.

corporation tax of hold of the United Kingdom so we can compete

:21:13.:21:19.

across the borders with Europe and the world. Let me ask you where

:21:19.:21:28.

Trident has got to with Wales. Some of the party members said

:21:28.:21:34.

absolutely not. What is going on with that now? I stood with Labour

:21:34.:21:38.

Party members outside Parliament last week to address a crowd

:21:38.:21:43.

protesting Trident. The mood of Wales is very much against renewing

:21:43.:21:47.

nuclear weapons. But more importantly, people are rusting why

:21:47.:21:54.

we are spending billions on nuclear weapons at a time of austerity cuts.

:21:54.:22:03.

-- people are asking fulls DUP they want to see -- people are asking

:22:03.:22:09.

why. They want to see the end of nuclear weapons. This is really

:22:09.:22:14.

about what the constituent parts of the UK should be now or in Europe,

:22:14.:22:20.

a Western European type of defence capability and also within NATO. It

:22:20.:22:24.

is clear the people of Wales and my constituency, an area which has

:22:24.:22:34.
:22:34.:22:36.

been mentioned for Dryden, are very much against. I do not the nuclear

:22:36.:22:43.

weapons with gas and oil really mix. Will the DUP... I know you have

:22:43.:22:48.

considered coming in for the referendum campaign for the better

:22:48.:22:53.

to get the campaign, and where have you got on that now? I do not want

:22:53.:23:03.
:23:03.:23:05.

to be part of a country where one are part becomes foreigners and my

:23:05.:23:09.

Scottish counterparts become foreign to me. My grandmother and

:23:09.:23:19.
:23:19.:23:26.

brother-in-law of Scottish. We have Will the DUP be coming in to

:23:26.:23:34.

complain? What we have to do is have a debate which is framed in a

:23:34.:23:38.

way that is respectful and, more importantly, addresses the issues

:23:38.:23:42.

and so of being pejorative about people you do not actually like.

:23:42.:23:46.

And I think this debate will affect my future and all our futures in

:23:46.:23:50.

awe of the United Kingdom and we have all got the right to have a

:23:50.:23:58.

voice. -- all of the United Kingdom. Scottish nationalists have invited

:23:58.:24:06.

me to speak on this so why do -- so what I do not see why we would be

:24:06.:24:15.

having a debate in this way. As the Unionist I want to maintain and

:24:15.:24:18.

strengthen the Union. I can do it without being part of a platform

:24:18.:24:22.

and do it as being a member of his kingdom and making that argument

:24:22.:24:32.
:24:32.:24:32.

but we hope we do not need to have What is in store for the next few

:24:33.:24:38.

days as Westminster and Holyrood settled back to the grindstone

:24:38.:24:48.
:24:48.:24:54.

And for some analysis, I am joined this week by its Lord John McFall

:24:54.:25:03.

and the former SNP treasurer Ian Blackford. Sorry for my

:25:03.:25:13.
:25:13.:25:16.

pronunciation. Thank you for coming If we look at the papers, all

:25:16.:25:21.

looking at the SNP Conference and NATO. Where you stand on that?

:25:21.:25:29.

think it is a very important position. We have to recognise the

:25:29.:25:31.

obligations we will house an independent nation to work together

:25:31.:25:41.
:25:41.:25:55.

with our allies. A from Alex Salmond's speech, we have this idea

:25:55.:26:04.

that this is the next stage in the home rule journey. We want people

:26:04.:26:09.

to reflect on the kind of nation we would now like Scotland to be, so

:26:09.:26:14.

he is trying to reach out so many people. Who has he got in mind?

:26:14.:26:17.

think what yesterday showed is that democracy is alive and kicking and

:26:17.:26:22.

the SNP itself and I think the iron grip Alex Salmond has has now

:26:22.:26:26.

loosened and people saying, we do minute, what is this vision of

:26:26.:26:36.

independence will signing up for? For example, we have others saying

:26:36.:26:40.

one of the guarantees going into NATO would be to keep Trident, so

:26:40.:26:48.

forget about Trident going to promote from elsewhere. I think the

:26:48.:26:52.

SNP realises that now. They also realise in terms of their monetary

:26:52.:26:56.

union in keeping the pound that they are not going to have the

:26:56.:27:00.

fiscal independence they had before and their tax rates will vary. So

:27:00.:27:04.

the reality is catching up at the SNP and Alex Salmond has opened the

:27:04.:27:07.

door to add to be saying, we to minute, what does independence mean

:27:07.:27:17.
:27:17.:27:24.

We understand the practicalities of where we are, it's about how we

:27:24.:27:27.

grow the economy in Scotland and present the aspiration we have to

:27:28.:27:31.

present a better future and there is no question that remain the with

:27:31.:27:36.

the pound is a decent way of doing that over the next few years. We

:27:36.:27:40.

have to grow economically and productivity and we need to create

:27:40.:27:45.

Scotland people want to invest in, whether domestic capital or

:27:45.:27:48.

indigenous capital to turn the country around and get away from

:27:48.:27:52.

austerity. To stay with the pound and the Bank of England is the

:27:52.:27:59.

sensible thing to do at this time to stop realistically, how much

:27:59.:28:03.

divergence can there be in fiscal policy and military policy in terms

:28:03.:28:09.

of practical terms, how much divergence can it be? I am a member

:28:09.:28:12.

of the economic affairs committee and we are in Scotland are looking

:28:12.:28:17.

at the situation of the economy post referendum. We asked Alex

:28:17.:28:21.

Salmond to meet us but he's too busy to come along on the issue.

:28:21.:28:26.

Every time we've had a witness before us, I've asked of our fiscal

:28:26.:28:32.

independence, how much will there be and unanimously people say if

:28:32.:28:36.

they signed up to being a member of the Military Policy Committee, the

:28:36.:28:42.

room for fiscal independence under an agreement is very very limited.

:28:42.:28:48.

People are beginning to realise these issues. Alex has been good at

:28:48.:28:52.

keeping the emotional temperature high but now we have two years to

:28:52.:28:59.

the referendum it will have to be lowered. What kind of debate will

:28:59.:29:05.

be heart over the next two years? The prospectus is in 2012 for the

:29:05.:29:14.

SNP. It is starting to happen and the case was put clearly the stock

:29:14.:29:19.

they have to be rules that have to be stuck to it in terms of what is

:29:19.:29:23.

permissible under the arrangements will have the Bank of England but

:29:23.:29:27.

the obligation we have is to show the people of Scotland we can

:29:27.:29:31.

accelerate growth in Scotland to allow us to loosen the purse

:29:31.:29:38.

strings. As a clear difference on policy and tuition fees and bus

:29:38.:29:43.

passes and so on. How we pay for these things and how we shape the

:29:43.:29:49.

debate is going to be an important one. I'm interested in how the

:29:49.:29:53.

debate is shaped, the prospectus isn't out until autumn next year,

:29:54.:29:59.

does it hang in the air or what you think filters through now? Had the

:29:59.:30:05.

debate progress? The programme has been interesting with people from

:30:05.:30:11.

different areas. The big issue facing us all is in a global world

:30:11.:30:18.

of uncertainty, how do we shape the future and how do we preserve our

:30:18.:30:23.

security individually and collectively? I can feel the debate

:30:23.:30:28.

is now coming onto the stage and there will be wider questions asked

:30:28.:30:33.

Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser with the latest political news, interviews and debate including Home Secretary Theresa May on the Government's plans for new Police and Crime Commissioners in England and Wales.


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