02/12/2012 Sunday Politics Scotland


02/12/2012

Isabel Fraser with the latest political news, interviews and debate in Scotland.


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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. The Chancellor

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comes clean, sort of. Debt is rising and sorting out the deficit

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is taking longer than he hoped. What will that mean for tax and

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spend, especially welfare spend? We'll have the latest and get the

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Lib Dem view just three days before the Autumn Statement. As the dust

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settles on the Leveson Report and Ed Miliband repeats his call for

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press regulation by law, is Labour on the wrong side of the argument?

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We'll ask Harriet Harman. And he's the tough new Justice Secretary

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intent on making life hell for the criminal classes. That's the

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rhetoric. But how tough is Chris Grayling and will it make the

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streets safer? Coming up later on Sunday Politics Scotland: The First

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Minister joins us live to explain why he thinks we need a separate

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cross-party solution to the Leveson With me, as always, is the best and

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the brightest panel of political tweeters in the business. Isabell

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Oakeshott, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt.; I can assure that all tweets

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:01:46.:01:46.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2048 seconds

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And my position is different. But it is a matter for Parliament. What

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you are saying is that you might be asking Parliament to vote for

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something, no votes for prisoners, which she cannot Vote For Yourself

:36:03.:36:09.

Aug her Cabinet colleagues? Is that true? -- and her Cabinet colleagues.

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I am on the record. I have legal responsibility, it cannot be the

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Lord Chancellor and not uphold the law. You can try to change the law.

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I will take appropriate legal advice about what I can do.

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Fundamentally, this is a choice for Parliament and I have said, it

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would be very easy to simply accept the ruling but the legal basis is

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different, it says, as members of Parliament, you have the right to

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decide, yes or no. I am offering you the choice. Chris grayling,

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thank you very much for clarifying that. You are watching The Sunday

:36:46.:36:56.
:36:56.:36:57.

Politics. Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming

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up on the programme. Leveson regulation and devolution. Do we

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really need a separate Scottish solution? The First Minister joins

:37:06.:37:10.

us to explain why he wants a cross- party panel led by another judge to

:37:10.:37:12.

examine how the recommendations into the first judge-led inquiry

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should be handled. Also, should people be prosecuted if they pay

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for sex? An MSP and a former escort debate the pros and cons. And is

:37:19.:37:22.

this the last Christmas we'll be able to buy cheap booze? Just when

:37:22.:37:29.

will the minimum pricing law come into force? Scotland could be on

:37:29.:37:32.

the way to introducing different press regulation to the rest of the

:37:32.:37:36.

United Kingdom, if Alex Salmond's preferred system is adopted. The

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First Minister has invited MSPs to engage in all-party talks to reach

:37:39.:37:42.

consensus on how to keep the Scottish press in check, but the

:37:42.:37:44.

process already appears to be unravelling, with opponents saying

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they'll only take part if Alex Salmond does not. Christine MacLeod

:37:47.:37:57.
:37:57.:38:00.

reports. Nine months and 2000 pages later, the long awaited inquiry

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into press standards by Lord Leveson has been published.

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Delivering his verdict on the press, he said their behaviour could only

:38:07.:38:13.

be described as a gritters. Or on too many occasions, those

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responsibilities along with the code of conduct which the press

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wrote and promoted, they have simply been ignored. This has

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damaged the public interest. Caused real hardship and, on occasion,

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wreaked havoc in the lives of innocent people. They away to

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prevent press harassment of victims in future, he suggested, was for

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the press to create its own regulator but he wants that backed

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up by a lot which he says would ensure independence. The body would

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have the power to require apologies and impose fines up to �1 million

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but the call has divided the Government. With the Deputy Prime

:39:00.:39:05.

Minister saying the new law is required to give legal teeth but

:39:05.:39:09.

the Prime Minister disagrees. should be wary of any legislation

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that has the potential to infringe free speech and the free press.

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is of the border, where Holyrood has responsibility for the press,

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tensions are also brewing. The First Minister has advocated a

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press regulator based on the Irish system with complaints ruled upon

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by an independent ombudsman and, like Leveson, require statute. Alex

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Salmond has offered cross-party talks but opposition parties are

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reluctant to take part if the First Minister is involved. They cite the

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criticisms of his proximity to the Murdoch family and News Corp in the

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past. He said that the relationship, the murky dealings, between the

:39:52.:39:57.

Murdoch family and Alex Salmond was an appropriate, he was trying to

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entice I UK minister to act unlawfully. Alexei Mansour es Lord

:40:01.:40:05.

Leveson's report has vindicated him from any wrongdoing over lobbying

:40:05.:40:11.

claims on behalf of News Corp. What now? Can the stand-off over cross-

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party talks be resolved and could Scotland end up with tougher press

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regulation than south of the border? Alex Salmond joins me.

:40:22.:40:28.

Thank you for joining us. You have said that the case for the Scot a

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solution is in our global and if we look at the work in practice, where

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:40:41.:40:45.

would the jurisdiction for? -- fall. The case is set out and page 49

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other Leveson Report. It points out we have a different system of law

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in Scotland and he didn't have the opportunity to consider fully and

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he flings down the gauntlet to the appalled administration to consider

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how this report could be implemented in our administration

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if there is consensus to go ahead but the central recommendation.

:41:05.:41:08.

This is inescapable, it is the Scottish parliament's

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responsibility to consider this and see if we can come to some sort of

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consensus which does not same to be around in Westminster. A are you

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saying that this is a system which would take account of the specifics

:41:21.:41:27.

of Scottish lock in areas like defamation and cost? But it would

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be essentially the same as south of the border in terms of required

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obligations and punishment? have made the point yourself, our

:41:37.:41:40.

system is then a private law, defamation is different here

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because we have a different legal system. The Leveson underpinning is

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central to this concept of defamation, effectively given as

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self-regulated press certain privileges if the abide by that

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self-regulation. Since our system in Scotland is different, we have

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to consider how that central recommendation could be implemented

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in Scotland if we choose to go down that route and on I would said to

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the people questioning this is, there does seem to be two things

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and one of them is that Leveson has made the case that you can avoid

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having state regulation of the press, which I do not support, and

:42:17.:42:22.

I never will support, but you could have as statutory underpinning of

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self-regulation and still have a vigorous, free press. If you

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believe he has made that case by consensus, we have to work out how

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that could be applied in Scotland. How see? -- has he? I think he has.

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And when you look at the National examples, in the first example he

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chose to look at, it was the Irish model, the Irish opposition.

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Emerson has made that central argument but he has not carried the

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bulk of the press. -- Leveson. As we talk through these things, we

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can come to a better solution and a lot of people want to see a

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solution. Perhaps as we did it and discuss these things, we can get to

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that consensus. -- de be it. What if there is no legal underpinning?

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-- debate. The legal underpinning is very attractive because it has

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nothing to do with state regulation of the press and it gives a self-

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regulated system certain privileges under the lough. If it is abided by.

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There is a lot of attractions for the press with that and those in

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the press who instinctively have reacted against this have really

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got to answer the question of how the opera that system in Ireland,

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every single one of the Fleet Street titles, some of those who

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have objected to any system like that here, they actually operate in

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Ireland and I have not seen anybody suggest that the Fleet Street

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titles in Ireland or the Irish press has been under constraints

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over these last five years. That is the central difficulty for those

:44:01.:44:04.

who reacted against this. There are parts of the Leveson

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recommendations which I personally do not think are appropriate. His

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suggestion of OFCOM as the recognising body, that was bound to

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raise hackles because by definition, that is a creature of the state.

:44:18.:44:22.

That isn't the essence of the Leveson recommendation, the essence

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of the recommendation because it is a way to under 10 in lock as self-

:44:29.:44:34.

regulated body and therefore, free press. Would papers based in

:44:34.:44:40.

Scotland and papers selling in Scotland have to pay for that?

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the system will have to be paid for and it is self-regulating and it

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has to be paid for by the press, and the volume of work will be

:44:48.:44:52.

exactly the same. I fail to see how the system is going to be more

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expensive if it is operated on a Scottish basis. But they will pay

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twice? For Westminster and Scotland? Perhaps I can help. There

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isn't actually any difference, huge difference, in the nature of the

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type of regulation required. The central principles, even of the PCC,

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are totally admirable and the difference is whether that system

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should be enforced by some sort of statutory underpinning and there is

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no suggestion from anyone that the system of factual reporting of the

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availability of correction and access to a correction from people

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with no resources, which is fundamental, that isn't what is the

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issue, everybody agrees on that. The disagreement lies in how that

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could be underpinned or not. And if it is to be legally underpinned, it

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is inescapable, given it is our responsibility, it would have to be

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underpinned on a Scottish bases. But if you set up two different

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systems, the papers are paying twice? I don't want to go into this

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in great detail. Is that the proposition? Can I just... No, it's

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not. The proposition is the same system of regulation that the

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statutory underpinning has in the Scots Parliament. And I have not

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seen anybody substantially disagreeing on the nature of the

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regulation should be put forward. The principles are the same, the

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disagreement lies on where they should be some sort of statutory

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underpinning. The big question is the internet, whatever you do with

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the press, the internet remains a very big problem? It is a huge

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problem for everyone and Leveson has actually comparatively little

:46:41.:46:47.

to say about the internet. The question of regulation of the World

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Wide Web, that is impossible to regulate and those states to

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regulate that have serious questions to answer. The question

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over whether people are entitled to break the law on the internet is

:46:59.:47:03.

one already answered in Scotland in terms of the offensive behaviour

:47:03.:47:07.

Bill, you're not allowed to incite hatred or conduct threatening

:47:07.:47:10.

behaviour over the internet, there is no absolution from the law

:47:10.:47:14.

because you do something anonymously at 2 am. We have

:47:14.:47:18.

established that. The wider question of regulation, whether

:47:18.:47:22.

desirable for the World Wide Web, is a question which certainly has

:47:22.:47:26.

not been seriously addressed by Lord Leveson and it cannot be

:47:27.:47:30.

addressed in a free, democratic society. Now that you have had a

:47:30.:47:36.

chance to reflect on the comments by Lord Leveson, who do you accept

:47:36.:47:40.

that you are wrong to offer to lobby on News Corporation's behalf

:47:40.:47:47.

on the BSkyB bid takeover? A a I'm very content with the conclusions.

:47:47.:47:53.

Which say I cannot be criticised for what I did. He did not put any

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paragraph talking about the BBC, I am also satisfied that he accepts

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about question that my motivation was for Scottish jobs and

:48:03.:48:06.

investment and caused that incredibly pottable. I'm very happy

:48:06.:48:16.
:48:16.:48:18.

with the conclusions. -- Wow double. For it by Mr... -- First Minister.

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What he said in those instances, what was said by Lord Leveson was,

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judged by what he did as opposed to what he said he was prepared to do,

:48:29.:48:34.

therefore he cannot be criticised. That is far more no-one's than full

:48:34.:48:44.
:48:44.:48:44.

vindication. -- nuanced. You are motivated by a desire to help

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Scottish employment but how far is another matter, he lobbied on this

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and had the Culture Secretary acted upon this, it would have been the

:48:51.:48:57.

government decision unlawful. Yet again, that is far more new ones

:48:57.:49:07.
:49:07.:49:07.

than complete vindication? -- nuanced. The he did not exempt the

:49:07.:49:13.

BBC from that criticism. It is right to have the First Minister

:49:14.:49:16.

looking at jobs and investment as a top priority and he did not

:49:16.:49:22.

question my motivation. Can I just point out that Lord Leveson makes a

:49:22.:49:26.

sweeping attack on the conduct of Conservative and Labour politicians

:49:26.:49:30.

over the last generation in operating against the public

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interest. Specifically, he exempts the government of devolved

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administration from a charge and he also partially exempts the Lib-Dems.

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If he were to take what Lord Leveson has said, every substantial

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government in opposition at Westminster, by the charge is

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accused by Lord Leveson of acting against the public interest over

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the last generation. I think we should note that he took the

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trouble and time and he knew what he was doing in exempting the

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governments of the devolved administration from that. But to be

:50:06.:50:09.

clear run this point, that he said he accepted what you're doing was

:50:09.:50:13.

appropriate, because you are lobbying for a Scottish jobs, what

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he said was that Mr Salmond's duty to promote the economy and Scottish

:50:18.:50:22.

jobs cannot sensibly be understood as requiring a relevant submissions

:50:22.:50:27.

to be made to acquire side judicial decision maker. The Culture

:50:27.:50:31.

Secretary was not entitled to consider considerations of jobs and

:50:31.:50:36.

the only test was plurality of media ownership. With that

:50:36.:50:39.

suggestion, you were either unwilling or unable to see some

:50:40.:50:49.
:50:50.:50:52.

Well, this is a question about the Scottish Ministry. -- in a Scottish

:50:52.:50:58.

ministerial code. This was to support jobs and investment. Lord

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Leveson describes it as Leveson -- as laudable. He concluded that they

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cannot be criticised. We can argue about what the Scottish ministerial

:51:08.:51:13.

code does but that overarching commitment is there. Leveson says

:51:13.:51:18.

he doesn't judge on ministerial codes, precisely to defend Scottish

:51:18.:51:25.

jobs and investment. If you think that... The Scottish Ministerial

:51:25.:51:29.

Code was not relevant in this regard. What I am suggesting to

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you... This suggests... We have got a two second delay. I am sorry, it

:51:38.:51:43.

is not satisfactory. What I am suggesting is that it demonstrates

:51:43.:51:49.

flawed judgment, in both offering to lobby and also in entertaining

:51:49.:51:53.

personally entertaining Rupert Murdoch in Bute House after the

:51:53.:51:57.

Milly Dowler hacking had been established. I am suggesting to you

:51:57.:52:01.

this demonstrates a fraud error of judgment which also allows your

:52:01.:52:05.

opponents to speak to your motives. What I am asking you is if your

:52:05.:52:11.

interest is in public confidence in the system, should you not

:52:11.:52:15.

Stepaside now and let Nicola Sturgeon lead? In order to shore up

:52:15.:52:22.

public confidence? Let's be clear. You are not citing something that

:52:23.:52:27.

is said by Lord Leveson but by my political opponents. And if it was

:52:27.:52:31.

up to them, I would not be First Minister but thankfully that is up

:52:31.:52:36.

to the people. One of the reasons they elected me is they know that I

:52:36.:52:41.

will stand up for Scottish jobs, investment. Something that Lord

:52:41.:52:46.

Leveson totally accepted. That was my aim and intent in the actions I

:52:46.:52:50.

took. Lord Leveson also says just for the avoidance of any doubt

:52:50.:52:54.

whatsoever that my actions could not be criticised. No doubt, my

:52:54.:52:58.

political opponents would like to fight the election again and not

:52:58.:53:02.

lose it, but all political parties looking at the public interest rate

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now, they are rising to Leveson's challenge and see if we wish to see

:53:07.:53:12.

some form of statutory underpinning of self regulation of a free press,

:53:12.:53:15.

how we can rise to that challenge on a Scottish bases and find a

:53:15.:53:20.

solution, not least of which for the element of Scottish victims, of

:53:20.:53:24.

people who feel they have been badly treated by the press. And I

:53:24.:53:28.

think the general willingness of press and public to find a better

:53:28.:53:34.

solution. So, why don't we rise to that challenge laid down by Lord

:53:34.:53:36.

Leveson and see-through can make progress in interest of the people

:53:36.:53:42.

of Scotland. Just before we leave it, what I would suggest you and

:53:42.:53:45.

what has come through in the report is that it wasn't about what you

:53:45.:53:50.

did but what you were prepared to do. People can read what Lord

:53:50.:53:56.

Leveson has said in detail. Do you want to maintain this position that

:53:56.:54:03.

you have been totally vindicated? Except Lord Leveson's conclusion

:54:03.:54:11.

that I cannot be criticised. -- I accept. I draw to your attention so

:54:11.:54:16.

stricter that buoy Leveson gave across government and opposition

:54:16.:54:23.

parties for the last generation for which he examines the Scottish

:54:23.:54:27.

administration of not operating in the public's interest, so we should

:54:27.:54:31.

operate in the public interest and try to find a sensible way forward

:54:31.:54:37.

which protects a vigorous, self regulated press, and the interest

:54:37.:54:42.

of our people. Let's address our minds in a positive way to do this.

:54:42.:54:49.

Thank you very much indeed. Joining me now is the leader of the

:54:49.:54:52.

Scottish Tories and the leader of Scottish Labour. Will you take part

:54:53.:55:01.

in these talks? We agreed that once we have read this, we will talk

:55:01.:55:05.

about the regulations. Resentful because of what we're doing is

:55:05.:55:08.

about the interest of those victims, those people who feel the press has

:55:08.:55:12.

been allowed to behave in a way that has caused them pain and

:55:12.:55:16.

suffering. One thing we should remember is that Lord Leveson had

:55:16.:55:23.

no particular interest. His voice is an independent voice. It is

:55:23.:55:26.

speaking out for the victims so we will take part in all-party talks.

:55:26.:55:31.

But you have been critical of Alex Salmond leading them. It is

:55:31.:55:35.

astonishing, watching that. He should reflect on what Lord Leveson

:55:35.:55:39.

said because Lord Leveson has criticised him more than any

:55:39.:55:43.

politician in his report. I am happy to say that all political

:55:43.:55:49.

parties became afraid of the owners and editors and tried to manage

:55:49.:55:54.

that prices but the fact of the matter is that Alex Salmond, the

:55:54.:56:01.

only reason he didn't act was because the bid was withdrawn so

:56:01.:56:04.

although he cannot be criticised for what he did, we do know that in

:56:04.:56:09.

terms of what to Rupert Murdoch's people said, he stood ready to act

:56:09.:56:14.

on behalf of Rupert Murdoch. He should be honest about his flawed

:56:14.:56:22.

judgment. There were two things. He says he won an election and he

:56:23.:56:30.

cannot be criticised. And he can't be criticised because the burglar

:56:30.:56:35.

alarm went off, he didn't break through the door. You can criticise

:56:35.:56:39.

somebody for their intent. He made it clear he was intending to ask UK

:56:40.:56:44.

government ministers to act in an unlawful manner. There was severe

:56:44.:56:48.

criticism put on record by Lord Justice Leveson of the conduct of

:56:48.:56:53.

our First Minister and he has to accept that. Words like striking,

:56:53.:57:00.

Lord Leveson's words, it was real criticism. It is astonishing he has

:57:00.:57:04.

not reflected on that and realise he has to step back from these

:57:04.:57:08.

talks allow somebody not tainted by that criticism to lead. And if he

:57:08.:57:13.

does not? I am happy to work with all the parties. We have to find a

:57:13.:57:18.

workable solution. But I will use the talks on Thursday to ask Alex

:57:18.:57:23.

Salmond to reflect on his behaviour. He has been in Scottish politics

:57:23.:57:28.

for an awfully long time and even he must look at himself and think,

:57:28.:57:32.

"Really? And My the best person to speak on behalf of the Scottish

:57:32.:57:37.

Government?" at he has been severely criticised, he is not the

:57:37.:57:44.

right person to lead. Briefly, your problem is that if we are going to

:57:44.:57:48.

down people by association with Rupert Murdoch, your parties have

:57:48.:57:58.
:57:58.:57:59.

both been damaged. Is it party point-scoring? I think that

:57:59.:58:02.

everybody has to reflect on their relationship with the press. I can

:58:02.:58:07.

explain to you that after being traduced in 1992 by one particular

:58:07.:58:12.

newspaper, our party became too cautious in the wake they dealt

:58:12.:58:17.

with the press. I recognise that. I think that has been a wake-up call

:58:17.:58:25.

for everybody. No one could have heard the story about Milly

:58:25.:58:29.

Dowler's family, thinking there was some chance she was alive without

:58:29.:58:34.

their stomach turning. What I am saying is this is an opportunity

:58:34.:58:39.

through all party talks to do what we can to make sure the press has

:58:39.:58:43.

freedom to operate but also that victims of the press should have

:58:43.:58:48.

recourse. Should there be statutory underpinning? I do not believe

:58:48.:58:54.

there should. I think if we see or we should be cautious about having

:58:54.:59:00.

that. We haven't had any form of law written which underwrites the

:59:00.:59:03.

process of holding the press to account. I think that we need a

:59:04.:59:07.

free press, not just in Scotland but across the UK. It is important

:59:07.:59:11.

we have that. I think Lord Leveson's key recommendations about

:59:11.:59:15.

the conduct of the press can be taken forward without that

:59:15.:59:18.

statutory element. We are almost out of time. Statutory underpinning

:59:18.:59:23.

or not? It as an opportunity for the press to solve regulate but

:59:23.:59:28.

with an underpinning which allows people we dress at times they feel

:59:28.:59:32.

they have been badly treated. We cannot have the current position

:59:32.:59:35.

where the press could behave as they chose and those who felt

:59:35.:59:41.

victims had nowhere to go. We need to move forward on that basis.

:59:41.:59:44.

without the statutory underpinning, you cannot enforce anyone turning

:59:44.:59:50.

up. That is why I said I recognise that what Lord Leveson suggests is

:59:50.:59:55.

a good way forward. There is a lot of sabre-rattling about what that

:59:55.:59:59.

might mean. It is actually an opportunity for the press to be

:59:59.:00:02.

able to do the job they want to do and have the confidence of the

:00:02.:00:12.
:00:12.:00:17.

people to do it. Thank you both. The Chancellor George Osborne has

:00:17.:00:20.

said the rich will have to pay their fair share to help reduce the

:00:20.:00:25.

deficit. Speaking ahead of his Autumn Statement this week, he

:00:25.:00:28.

admitted that efforts to reduce the deficit and return the economy to

:00:28.:00:32.

growth are taking longer than anyone would have hoped. Our

:00:32.:00:37.

correspondent reports. The economic road ahead is likely

:00:37.:00:42.

to be more bumpy than the Chancellor has previously suggested

:00:42.:00:46.

despite his smiles today. He has acknowledged he is set to miss one

:00:46.:00:50.

of his main targets - to reduce debt as a share of national income

:00:50.:00:53.

by the next election. We have got to deal with the deficit which will

:00:53.:00:57.

take longer, which means more difficult decisions. It has got to

:00:57.:01:01.

be done fairly. So the richest have to bear their fair share and they

:01:01.:01:06.

will. We will also tackle welfare bills, and that is the conservative

:01:06.:01:11.

approach. Make the rich pay but make sure you're tackling welfare,

:01:11.:01:15.

which is deeply unfair. Labour has once again accused the Chancellor

:01:15.:01:19.

of being reckless by failing to change course, given the lack of

:01:19.:01:25.

economic growth. I think the idea you will be freezing unemployment

:01:25.:01:29.

benefits and -- cutting tax credits or giving tax cuts for millionaires

:01:29.:01:34.

is a question of trousers and priorities. The Chancellor says

:01:34.:01:38.

Labour's plans to spend more would undermine the credibility of

:01:38.:01:41.

Britain's deficit reduction plan, something he argues would be

:01:41.:01:45.

catastrophic. Instead, the speculation which must Osborne

:01:45.:01:50.

wouldn't confirm today that he could put tax relief on pensions

:01:50.:01:57.

and free some benefits. Tadman suicide bombers have attacked the

:01:57.:02:00.

US air base in eastern Afghanistan this morning. They struck at the

:02:00.:02:05.

airfield in Jalalabad driving two car bombs at the entrance and

:02:05.:02:10.

sparking a two hour gun battle with the UN forces. What more can you

:02:10.:02:18.

tell us? This was a complex, co- ordinated attack involving up to

:02:18.:02:22.

nine a suicide bombers. They came with vehicles laden with explosives

:02:23.:02:27.

and also on food. They tried to storm the perimeter of the base.

:02:27.:02:30.

They didn't manage to get through although they attacked

:02:30.:02:35.

simultaneously from several directions. They were fought off by

:02:35.:02:38.

security forces at the entrance. The Taliban came with heavy weapons

:02:38.:02:44.

including rocket-propelled grenades. Major fought back with helicopters.

:02:44.:02:48.

Local police tell us to civilians were killed, four members of Afghan

:02:48.:02:52.

special forces. And Afghan officials are investigating if any

:02:52.:02:57.

of those people could have been victims of so-called friendly fire.

:02:57.:03:01.

May to say they are co-operating in that investigation. Further proof

:03:01.:03:05.

the Taliban retained the ability to strike hard in spite of repeated

:03:05.:03:09.

claims from later and Afghan officials that they have been

:03:09.:03:17.

weakened. -- claims from NATO. David Beckham has signed off his

:03:17.:03:23.

days by helping his team win the Championship in America. You didn't

:03:23.:03:27.

get on the scoresheet but said he had enjoyed his six years in the

:03:27.:03:30.

States. He is now looking for another club to finish his career

:03:30.:03:40.
:03:40.:03:41.

with. That is all the news for now. There is more at 5:50pm.

:03:41.:03:45.

Good afternoon. The First Minister has invited

:03:46.:03:48.

opposition party leaders to meet with him next Thursday to discuss

:03:48.:03:51.

how the Leveson report into press standards could be implemented in

:03:51.:03:52.

Scotland. The Scottish Conservatives and Scottish Labour

:03:52.:03:58.

leaders say it is time. Alex Salmond told a Scottish regulation

:03:58.:04:00.

was needed because of different legal systems and saddled Leveson

:04:00.:04:09.

had highlighted the do something that should be considered. We need

:04:09.:04:13.

to consider how his report can be implemented in our administration

:04:13.:04:17.

if there is a consensus to go ahead with the central recommendation

:04:17.:04:21.

that this is inescapable. It is these Kurdish Parliament's

:04:22.:04:25.

responsibility to consider it and to see if we can come to some sort

:04:25.:04:29.

of consensus. The Ministry of Defence says it will not comment on

:04:29.:04:33.

reports that plans to build an army garrison in the outskirts of

:04:33.:04:37.

Edinburgh are being scrapped. A review of army bases is underway

:04:37.:04:40.

and an announcement's due soon. The Sunday Times' claim that a new

:04:40.:04:43.

garrison at Kirknewton won't be built has been dismissed as

:04:43.:04:46.

speculation. The MoD say they expect to see a major army presence

:04:46.:04:50.

at Leuchars and Kinloss and more naval personnel at Faslane.

:04:50.:04:53.

The Yes Scotland campaign say they plan to recruit a teenager to sit

:04:53.:04:58.

on their advisory board ahead of the independence referendum. The

:04:58.:05:01.

group is advertising on its website urging teens to apply. They say

:05:01.:05:04.

someone from that age group will help to shape their approach

:05:04.:05:08.

towards the referendum as 16 and 17 year olds will be voting for the

:05:08.:05:12.

first time. And now time for the forecast with

:05:12.:05:21.

It was another cold and frosty morning but this afternoon they

:05:21.:05:26.

should be a good amount of sunshine around. The cloud works in from

:05:26.:05:32.

viewers turning the sunshine hazy. Temperatures for many, two or 3.

:05:32.:05:36.

Later tonight, we have snow in the forecast and the Met Office warning

:05:36.:05:44.

is in force. The rain works its way in, turning to snow. It could be on

:05:44.:05:49.

the lower levels, too. We should see some in Glasgow. The snow

:05:49.:05:52.

likely to last through Stirling and Perth Show through tomorrow morning.

:05:52.:06:02.
:06:02.:06:04.

That's it for the moment, I'll now Should people who pay for sex be

:06:04.:06:06.

prosecuted? At the moment, while there are a number of offences

:06:06.:06:09.

linked to prostitution, it is technically legal to buy sex. But a

:06:09.:06:17.

consultation is underway on plans to change this. It comes amid a

:06:17.:06:20.

debate over how the new single police force will cope with the

:06:20.:06:22.

different approaches to the sex industry in Scotland's cities. BBC

:06:22.:06:25.

Scotland's investigation team have been taking a look at the issue.

:06:25.:06:28.

Here's Fiona Walker. In Edinburgh they have son us, it what is

:06:28.:06:32.

described as pragmatic. Then Glasgow it is zero tolerance and an

:06:32.:06:37.

Aberdeen, the middle way but police trying other options before arrest.

:06:37.:06:41.

The a 40s in each city believe their way is the right one. But

:06:41.:06:45.

soon, Scotland's eight police forces will become one. How will it

:06:45.:06:50.

change the way the police in this area is approach prostitution?

:06:50.:06:54.

you move towards the national fours, we would be looking to develop a

:06:54.:06:58.

strategy which will address prostitution across Scotland. It

:06:58.:07:05.

will not be easy. It will be a challenge but with the support of

:07:05.:07:10.

all other forces and with other organisations, who work with

:07:10.:07:15.

victims, and two are engaged with victims and other groups who are

:07:15.:07:22.

involved in prostitution, hopefully we can go to tackling the demand.

:07:22.:07:26.

it is evident from a quick look online that there is sex for sale

:07:26.:07:34.

everywhere. It's not always obvious what is legal. Here is what the law

:07:34.:07:40.

says - paying for sex between two consenting adults is legal. As long

:07:40.:07:44.

as you're not working on the street or in a brothel. And five years ago,

:07:44.:07:49.

kerb-crawling became illegal, so clients of street prostitutes also

:07:49.:07:54.

faced criminal charges. Until now, the prostitutes have been

:07:54.:07:57.

criminalised more than clients and the number of women convicted last

:07:57.:08:04.

year under prostitution offences was 117. 83 men were convicted,

:08:04.:08:09.

either for soliciting, kerb- crawling or other related offences.

:08:09.:08:15.

That can be about to change. provide companionship and sometimes

:08:15.:08:19.

sexual services for gentlemen. Laura is a prostitute who works

:08:19.:08:23.

legally as an escort. But proposals for consultation at the moment in

:08:23.:08:29.

the person paying for sex could be the one committing crime. In is

:08:29.:08:34.

going to criminalise consenting adults indulging in paid sex.

:08:34.:08:39.

wrong. And it is Miss guiding and has been ill-informed. It will

:08:39.:08:44.

drive a further wedge between us and the police because as things

:08:44.:08:48.

stand at the moment, we have an excellent working relationship with

:08:48.:08:53.

police. So on in Holyrood said the proposals would just not work. --

:08:53.:08:58.

some in Hollywood. I would hate to go into that in a court from to try

:08:58.:09:02.

to decide what constitutes payment and what does not. And the great

:09:02.:09:06.

thing in this is to get a conviction against a man, because

:09:06.:09:11.

it's about criminalising the male partner, the female partner would

:09:11.:09:16.

have to give evidence and she will not. By pure they believe it could

:09:16.:09:21.

cut demand in the sex trade. Were any to remember that research shows

:09:21.:09:27.

that most men don't buy sex. So the men in Scotland who are choosing to

:09:27.:09:33.

buy sex, they are part of a criminal chain, if you like. A what

:09:33.:09:39.

this debate shows is that with some people taking a moral stance, bands

:09:39.:09:44.

of -- and Others one of tolerance, the so-called oldest profession is

:09:44.:09:48.

still can finding another old profession. Politics. --

:09:48.:09:53.

confounding. And you can listen to Fiona's radio documentary on the

:09:53.:09:56.

iPlayer, that's The Investigation: Sex for Sale. I'm joined now by

:09:56.:09:59.

Rhoda Grant, the Scottish Labour MSP who is proposing a change in

:09:59.:10:01.

the law, and the former escort Brooke Magnanti, also known as

:10:01.:10:05.

Belle de Jour, whose blog on her experiences as an escort caused a

:10:05.:10:08.

media stir. She's also patron of Scot Pep, a charity which supports

:10:08.:10:17.

sex workers. Rhoda Grant, how do you respond to the observation that

:10:17.:10:21.

this cannot stack up in court because he could not prove it?

:10:21.:10:24.

think you can prove it and that will be one of the challenges of

:10:24.:10:30.

drawing up the bill. And one of the outcomes of the consultation

:10:30.:10:34.

process, because obviously am asking people how they think the

:10:34.:10:38.

reports would be created and what definitions would be required. I

:10:38.:10:45.

think of it was Ann Nicholl, of course it could stack up in court.

:10:45.:10:50.

As you said earlier, there are convictions already. So this would

:10:50.:10:55.

be no different. What about the argument that the effect would be

:10:55.:10:59.

to endanger some women working on the street because of a drive it

:10:59.:11:02.

underground? It was not drive it underground because it would have

:11:02.:11:07.

to remain visible to people who purchase. Women involved in

:11:07.:11:12.

prostitution at the moment are in danger, their life expectancy is

:11:13.:11:17.

lower than women from other walks of life and they face abuse,

:11:18.:11:23.

assault, rape on a daily basis. To say they're not being abused at the

:11:23.:11:27.

moment and somehow criminalising the purchase of sex would mean they

:11:27.:11:32.

would be abused, that does not make any sense whatsoever. Brooke, it is

:11:32.:11:36.

a matter of fact that women working as prostitutes are abused daily and

:11:36.:11:40.

it is a very dangerous business? There a abuses in every industry

:11:40.:11:47.

and in that case, the sex industry is no different from food services,

:11:47.:11:50.

agriculture, there are cases of exploitation in literally every

:11:50.:11:54.

industry. Are there than that prostitutes are regularly beaten

:11:54.:12:00.

and raped, their mental health is compromised... Define right

:12:00.:12:05.

Committee. If you are talking about the small but Ted -- percentage

:12:05.:12:08.

coursed into working as sex workers, that is the case, but the vast

:12:08.:12:12.

majority choose to do so. As long as we have good relationships and

:12:12.:12:16.

feel if we are in an abusive relationship, we can go to the

:12:16.:12:20.

police, as was said, we need to preserve that link and that is

:12:20.:12:25.

something that if we were looking at a police force across Scotland,

:12:25.:12:28.

we would want to look carefully at what has worked in the Aberdeen

:12:28.:12:35.

area rather than Glasgow with zero Paul Ince -- 0 Torrens. This law

:12:35.:12:38.

has existed for several years in Scotland and we have seen how they

:12:38.:12:42.

have proceeded with evidence gathering, submitting women to

:12:42.:12:45.

unwanted genital cheques to collect evidence for the cases they bring

:12:45.:12:49.

against men. That his state sanctioned sexual assault and it

:12:49.:12:54.

should not happen here, we should not put the safety and well-being

:12:54.:13:02.

of these women behind some in the logical argument. -- idiom logical.

:13:02.:13:05.

Do you accept that the majority of women working as prostitutes are

:13:05.:13:10.

doing so of their own volition? No, of most of the women are doing it

:13:10.:13:17.

because they are coursed, I want them... I want them -- it is

:13:17.:13:21.

because of their own poverty and a lot of the one that I speak to feel

:13:21.:13:25.

there is no option open to them and some people have even said that it

:13:25.:13:28.

should be acceptable for poor women to be prostitutes because that

:13:28.:13:32.

keeps them off the dole queue. I don't find that acceptable. What

:13:32.:13:37.

about them and making this choice, consciously and from their own

:13:37.:13:44.

volition? I have some difficulty with making a difference between

:13:44.:13:48.

them because what they say is, by making this decision consciously,

:13:48.:13:52.

of my own volition, and I really don't care about the mass -- the

:13:52.:13:56.

vast majority of women working as prostitutes who don't have that

:13:56.:14:04.

free will. They seem to ignore the needs of those people. The solution

:14:04.:14:08.

is to try to establish as many banks as possible with healthcare

:14:08.:14:12.

and services for people that want them and with police, so that women

:14:12.:14:15.

working in prostitution can continue to count on the support of

:14:15.:14:19.

the police. There is nothing in this Bill which changes the

:14:19.:14:23.

circumstances by which women enter sex work. We really want to be

:14:23.:14:27.

looking at women entering this because they have a financial need

:14:27.:14:30.

or because they have a drug addiction, what are the basic

:14:30.:14:35.

causes because people are being coerced, address at first, and laid

:14:35.:14:41.

the sex trade open for people like me, who freely chose that. Leading

:14:41.:14:46.

people into the sex trade, because there are purchasers, and that

:14:46.:14:49.

becomes a very obvious solution to a very difficult problem, if there

:14:49.:14:53.

was no purchaser, if they were criminalised, there would be no

:14:53.:14:57.

demand and therefore people would not be led into this and I find it

:14:57.:15:02.

very difficult to understand why somebody, knowing the damage can do,

:15:02.:15:09.

cancer, I need my freedom of choice. The end to man it has not worked in

:15:09.:15:13.

Sweden, the UN said last month that Sweden is putting sex workers in

:15:13.:15:18.

danger and they are sitting on a timebomb of he Chidi. On the day

:15:18.:15:23.

after World Aids Day, this is something we have to keep in mind.

:15:23.:15:31.

-- HIV. I want to pick up on one element, human trafficking. If this

:15:31.:15:36.

Bill goes through, it will have a very specific potential outcome in

:15:36.:15:40.

terms of stopping human trafficking. Influencing human trafficking and

:15:40.:15:45.

monitoring that? What ING sex workers and clients are the best

:15:45.:15:49.

source police have for information about trafficking. They provide

:15:49.:15:57.

tip-offs. With pentameter, the police have not been able to find

:15:57.:16:01.

these masses of sex traffic workers that people claim and we need to

:16:01.:16:04.

keep those lines of communication open, not by criminalising the

:16:04.:16:09.

industry. We are out of town, I'm very sorry. Thank you both very

:16:09.:16:15.

much indeed. It's meant to save lives and cut the harm caused by

:16:15.:16:19.

alcohol. The Scottish Government's flagship bill to introduce a

:16:19.:16:22.

minimum unit price was hailed by campaigners and it looks like

:16:22.:16:24.

Westminster could now follow suit. But long-running concerns that the

:16:24.:16:27.

policy is unlawful are now being given a full airing. Ministers'

:16:27.:16:29.

lawyers are facing twin legal challenges. Andrew Kerr reports on

:16:29.:16:32.

a policy that passed the democratic hurdles but could still be felled

:16:32.:16:41.

by legal argument. It could be the last Christmas for no price alcohol

:16:41.:16:45.

if the minimum price legislation survives. The first legal challenge

:16:45.:16:50.

is in Brussels, where the European Commission issued a critical

:16:50.:16:53.

opinion, and that Scottish Government has to respond by the

:16:53.:16:57.

end of the month. The minimum unit pricing is a disproportionate

:16:57.:17:02.

response to the health problem and that it breaches EU laws on free

:17:02.:17:07.

trade... The Commission is concern to because of the effect that it

:17:07.:17:13.

might have on imports into Scotland of alcoholic products and that is

:17:13.:17:16.

why we have seen a number of wine producers from a number of

:17:16.:17:21.

countries, including Italy and France, have actually added their

:17:21.:17:25.

complaint to that already voiced by the Scottish Whisky Association and

:17:25.:17:30.

others. As they stayed there do in Brussels, the Scotch Whisky

:17:31.:17:34.

Association pursues a second legal challenge in Scotland and a

:17:34.:17:39.

judicial review will be head at the go -- held at the Court of Session.

:17:39.:17:43.

The association believes the policy goes beyond Holyrood and will never

:17:43.:17:49.

see the light of day. They will not introduce minimum pricing until all

:17:49.:17:53.

the legal processes are finished so even if the Court of Session rules

:17:53.:17:58.

next year, the chances are that this will go on to other courts, in

:17:58.:18:02.

the UK or in Brussels, and until that is finished, there will be no

:18:02.:18:06.

minimum price in Scotland. The charity alcohol focus submitted

:18:06.:18:09.

evidence to the court to back up the government view and they also

:18:10.:18:15.

are prepared for a long fight. case could go to the Supreme Court.

:18:15.:18:21.

In the UK. It could also go to the European Court of Justice. The

:18:21.:18:25.

alcohol industry is falling -- following in the footsteps of

:18:25.:18:30.

tobacco by seeking to delay factor legislation by that beano will save

:18:30.:18:35.

lives in Scotland. Campaigners like alcohol focus have welcomed a

:18:35.:18:40.

second ally, the UK Government is consulting on a minimum price for

:18:40.:18:44.

England and Wales. It is now possible that political

:18:44.:18:53.

considerations could override legal concerns, at least in Brussels.

:18:53.:18:56.

We're try to reach compromises across partners and of the UK games

:18:56.:19:00.

and this, they might be expected to give something away that they would

:19:00.:19:04.

otherwise prefer not to. In the European context, politics can play

:19:04.:19:09.

a big part but as for Edinburgh, politician will have to sit on the

:19:09.:19:11.

sidelines and watch lawyers debating the lough at Holyrood

:19:11.:19:15.

which it has already passed. Joining me from our Edinburgh

:19:15.:19:18.

studio is the SNP's MSP Christine Grahame, who is also a lawyer and

:19:19.:19:23.

convener of the Justice Committee. Thank you very much for talking to

:19:23.:19:27.

us today. There is an interesting interpretation that this might

:19:27.:19:32.

become more about politics than the law but you are hoping for some

:19:32.:19:35.

definitively the judgment? I don't thing there is a problem with

:19:35.:19:39.

having his legal challenges. I sat as chair of the health committee

:19:39.:19:42.

when we dealt with the earlier legislation which was opposed by

:19:42.:19:47.

the Unionist parties and the anticipated these challenges. But

:19:47.:19:51.

remember, the Scottish actor has the certificate of competence from

:19:51.:19:58.

the presiding officer which says it is... It will be challenged but we

:19:58.:20:01.

have always anticipated the European Commission, which said it

:20:01.:20:05.

was against competitiveness. European legislation isn't fixed

:20:05.:20:10.

and that by, there are delegations, if you can establish that there are

:20:10.:20:14.

health and social benefits, from introducing this legislation and

:20:14.:20:17.

there are huge health benefits to the Scottish public by introducing

:20:17.:20:22.

minimum unit pricing, huge financial benefits, not least that

:20:22.:20:27.

it costs us all about �900 each year for each person for all the

:20:27.:20:37.
:20:37.:20:41.

So, meaning within the powers of the Scottish government? Yes.

:20:41.:20:45.

Talking about the health benefits, you have to show you would not be

:20:45.:20:48.

able to achieve these health benefits by any other means and

:20:48.:20:51.

that this is proportionate, and are you confident you can show there's

:20:51.:20:54.

nothing else you could have done which would introduce the same

:20:54.:21:02.

health benefits? It is part of the package. It is not a silver bullet.

:21:02.:21:06.

Minimum unit pricing will attack very low cost, cheap got rotting

:21:06.:21:13.

alcohol, such as the own-brand -- own brand gin and vodka, which are

:21:13.:21:20.

so bad, in terms of beer and so, can be cheaper than water. Probably

:21:20.:21:24.

the wine producers of France are concerned, but it isn't the wine

:21:24.:21:32.

producers of France that alcohol will be the cause, but it is the

:21:32.:21:36.

cheap brand alcohols which leads to abusive drinking. We have looked at

:21:36.:21:40.

all the measures and I am pleased to see the UK is following

:21:40.:21:44.

Scotland's suit because remember that the Conservatives and the Lib

:21:44.:21:48.

Dems were opposed to it and now they have turned around to agree to

:21:48.:21:53.

it. Of course, that makes it that much easier. All Labour abstained

:21:53.:21:58.

on this particular legislation, which is a mystery to me, but we

:21:58.:22:02.

now have the bulk of the political parties behind us across the UK.

:22:02.:22:07.

Scotland led the way. And we will ultimately be successful in any

:22:07.:22:13.

European challenge. If you don't mind, it looks like Westminster

:22:13.:22:16.

might go on public order, so is the public health argument more

:22:16.:22:22.

persuasive? I think public health is more persuasive because of

:22:22.:22:25.

Scotland's very abysmal record on liver disease and so on, much

:22:25.:22:29.

higher than anywhere else in the world, and one person in three, as

:22:29.:22:36.

I understand, there is a huge death rate in Scotland from alcohol abuse.

:22:36.:22:42.

What we are looking at is a substantial, long-running problem.

:22:42.:22:46.

In terms of criminal justice, there are huge issues about domestic

:22:47.:22:52.

abuse, violence on the streets, aggression, all fuelled by alcohol.

:22:52.:22:57.

All of this together are very important. When might this actually

:22:57.:23:01.

kick in? How long is a piece of string? We know when things go to

:23:01.:23:07.

Europe, it is not on the fastest -- fast track, but a marker has been

:23:07.:23:12.

made on this issue. The UK Government is following suit, which

:23:12.:23:15.

is very interesting. And, with that, we may now have more political

:23:15.:23:22.

class ought. Potentially years, do you think? I suspect it may be a

:23:22.:23:30.

year or two. Yes. Thank you very much indeed.

:23:30.:23:36.

Now it's that time of the day where we take a look at the week ahead.

:23:37.:23:39.

In our other Edinburgh studio, we have the political commentator and

:23:39.:23:41.

newspaper columnist, Iain Macwhirter. And here with me, the

:23:42.:23:45.

Spectator journalist and blogger, Alex Massie.

:23:45.:23:51.

Thank you both indeed for coming in. If we look at what could be

:23:51.:23:56.

happening in terms of press regulation post Leveson, could be a

:23:56.:23:59.

different system North and South of the border work? We are in a

:23:59.:24:03.

bizarre situation where it looks like Leveson is perhaps more likely

:24:03.:24:06.

to be introduced North of the border themselves of the border

:24:06.:24:10.

because David Cameron's been clear he is not going to introduce press

:24:10.:24:13.

regulation or statutory underpinning, whereas Alex Salmond

:24:13.:24:17.

says he will. Alex Salmond has a majority in the Scottish Parliament.

:24:17.:24:22.

This would be a very odd situation. I am not sure that is conceivable

:24:22.:24:25.

and this might be the other males in the Leveson Coughlan, along with

:24:25.:24:31.

other things, like the internet, and other issues. The problem is

:24:31.:24:34.

that you are not going to have a regime that is going across the

:24:34.:24:37.

whole country and there will have to be separate legislation in

:24:37.:24:41.

Scotland it statutory underpinning is introduced because Scotland has

:24:41.:24:46.

a separate legal system and because Scotland's had a different system

:24:46.:24:51.

of press regulation. We have a different way of approaching it.

:24:51.:24:57.

This is an interesting situation. But is it... Can you finesse it in

:24:57.:25:02.

the way, you structure something that takes account of defamation,

:25:02.:25:06.

cost, the Scottish legal system, but actually, in terms of what it

:25:06.:25:10.

can look at and the punishments it can mete out, it will be the selves

:25:10.:25:15.

North and South. Is that the way to do it? -- it will be the same.

:25:15.:25:19.

could. If you have statutory underpinning, if you have press law,

:25:19.:25:24.

it will have to be passed by the Scottish Parliament because control

:25:24.:25:27.

of the press is not reserved to Westminster. Also, you have a

:25:27.:25:31.

separate legal system North of the border, therefore it would have to

:25:31.:25:35.

be passed into law in Scotland and the bizarre situation is that as

:25:35.:25:39.

things stand, it is more likely you will have that North of the border

:25:39.:25:48.

than South. Alex, is this tenable? Yes and no. In terms of the

:25:48.:25:54.

practical aspects, it is clear there are difficulties for editors,

:25:54.:25:59.

proprietors and, indeed, for core of it is doing the regulation. In

:25:59.:26:03.

terms of the politics of it, in one respect, what we have been saying

:26:03.:26:09.

about Scots Law and that requiring a bill to be introduced into

:26:09.:26:13.

Holyrood is correct, but in terms to the general elements of this,

:26:13.:26:17.

there is really no particular need for separate systems, North and

:26:17.:26:23.

South. The SNP's call to have a separate system is, essentially,

:26:23.:26:33.
:26:33.:26:34.

boil down to wanting Scottish exception and has some for the

:26:34.:26:40.

purpose of Scottish exceptional as some rather than any greater need

:26:40.:26:46.

or use. Do you accept what Lord Leveson says he says it is not a

:26:46.:26:49.

state regulation of the press but a legal underpinning? Do you accept

:26:49.:26:54.

that distinction? I would not accept that. His legal underpinning

:26:54.:27:00.

is that if you do not go along with this, Ofcom will get involved and

:27:00.:27:05.

since Ofcom is appointed by the government, that is de facto state

:27:05.:27:13.

regulation. Even if it is not implicitly so. What if editors go -

:27:13.:27:19.

- what it editors refused to go along with it? What is its value

:27:19.:27:23.

unless you can enforce it? The way to get editors to go along with it

:27:23.:27:33.
:27:33.:27:40.

is if you like an old-fashioned type thing of public shame. If you

:27:40.:27:49.

-- if editors are involved, the public shaming is key. Are you in

:27:49.:27:56.

favour of statutory underpinning? No, I am not. It is a dangerous

:27:56.:28:00.

step that would be taken. It is interesting that Labour is

:28:00.:28:04.

supporting press regulation. What they don't like is having press

:28:04.:28:08.

regulation in Scotland overseen by Alex Salmond. Perhaps they should

:28:08.:28:12.

be asking themselves in that case why they are so enthusiastic about

:28:12.:28:16.

press regulation at all. I want to that of the point about what

:28:16.:28:19.

Leveson proposes, the carrots and sticks. He says that if you don't

:28:19.:28:24.

sign up to the commission, publications will lose certain

:28:25.:28:29.

defences that they have currently. If you are charged with defamation,

:28:29.:28:34.

but you can establish that what you have said about the defender -- the

:28:34.:28:38.

individual is true, then that is it, the paper wins but under his scheme,

:28:38.:28:41.

they would not win and they would have to pay the costs of the

:28:41.:28:45.

litigation, so it could be a very serious problem because the costs

:28:45.:28:48.

of these actions can rise to hundreds of thousands of pounds,

:28:48.:28:53.

and that would mean that those outside the Leveson camp, if you

:28:53.:28:59.

like, the unlicensed press, would be exposed to financial risk.

:28:59.:29:03.

talking about harm to individuals and the press is one thing, but

:29:03.:29:07.

when you look at potential harm us, the internet is a huge issue. It

:29:07.:29:12.

seems like it cannot be regulated. Leveson has produced 2000 pages of

:29:12.:29:17.

reports that is already up to date. In it, he devotes precisely one

:29:17.:29:26.

page, just one page out of 2000, to the internet and online journalism.

:29:26.:29:32.

The great migration, unavoidable, from printed press to the online

:29:32.:29:38.

press, the impossibility of Trent have a regulatory framework that

:29:38.:29:41.

licenses print publications but doesn't even look at the internet

:29:41.:29:47.

will become starker. Do you think this is undermined because of the

:29:47.:29:51.

internet argument, or are the important principles at play?

:29:51.:29:56.

impossible to distinguish in law, really, between the internet and

:29:56.:30:02.

other media publication. They are both in the public domain, they

:30:02.:30:06.

disseminate views and information. That is what happens when a paper

:30:06.:30:09.

is on line or in print. You cannot make the distinction between the

:30:09.:30:18.

two. This will be brought out this week by this draft Bill, which

:30:18.:30:22.

David Cameron has promised. Some of these anomalies emerge. People will

:30:22.:30:30.

have to think twice because I don't see how you can have regulation on

:30:30.:30:34.

paper press, it would have to cover both sides. Also because of this

:30:34.:30:40.

issue of how you implement, how you set up a statutory underpinning,

:30:40.:30:44.

Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser.


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