16/12/2012 Sunday Politics Scotland


16/12/2012

Isabel Fraser with the latest political news, interviews and debate in Scotland.


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Transcript


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It is supposed to be a government department getting Burton moving

:00:44.:00:49.

again. But its transport policy stuck in neutral? We will ask the

:00:49.:00:59.
:00:59.:01:00.

The UK Independence Party are why - - riding a wave of Conservative

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:01:10.:01:14.

And are you a shirker or race driver? We debate whether the --

:01:14.:01:24.
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And we explore the psychology behind David Cameron and Ed

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Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1947 seconds

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In Scotland, we review all the At Turtle all day, tackle the

:34:02.:34:10.

minimum wage. S Waugh or less in the real terms than it was in 2004.

:34:11.:34:20.
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That is shocking. That deficit reduction means that we have to

:34:22.:34:28.

deal with our debt. Labour let us at a deficit, the largest in

:34:28.:34:38.
:34:38.:34:40.

Bet would be useful to get back to the subject of welfare reform. You

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:34:50.:34:51.

want more means testing. Why? universal system is unsustainable.

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With the ageing population it is no longer sustainable. We cannot have

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universal benefits. I remember, the interview by Frances Maude talking

:35:04.:35:11.

about on sustainability. But Hutton report showed that public sector

:35:11.:35:18.

pension costs will go down as a proportion of GDP. Let get real.

:35:18.:35:24.

There is a demographic problem through the Western world. Can we

:35:24.:35:28.

still fought, throughout the Western world, to support that the

:35:28.:35:32.

ageing population with universal benefits? What do we need means-

:35:32.:35:42.
:35:42.:35:46.

testing? Means testing it increases the costs. It lower the rate of

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uptake. It costs more to administer more. And it leads to higher rates

:35:53.:36:03.
:36:03.:36:04.

of benefit fraud. In the long term it will not cost more. It is not

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feel that an MP on a salary of �60,000 per year is claiming the

:36:09.:36:16.

winter fuel allowance. On that basis you should not get free

:36:16.:36:26.
:36:26.:36:27.

health care. You want an American- style safety net just for the poor?

:36:27.:36:34.

Some of us want a universal welfare state. How are you going to pay for

:36:34.:36:41.

it? More tax? How do we pay for corporate welfare? We spend

:36:41.:36:45.

hundreds of billions of pounds and try and, Afghanistan, but there is

:36:45.:36:50.

no money for the poor, disabled, elderly? For them, we must squeeze

:36:50.:37:00.
:37:00.:37:03.

down? It is unsustainable? Gentleman, time up. Thank you very

:37:03.:37:13.
:37:13.:37:23.

Good morning. Coming up: the economy, the recession, the

:37:23.:37:27.

recovery. Why does it feel justly be here before, and the year before

:37:27.:37:36.

that? We have to do something. We have to introduce the game changed

:37:36.:37:43.

a. If we don't we will be flatlining. There is our last

:37:43.:37:53.
:37:53.:37:55.

programme before Christmas. Time This week saw what the Scottish

:37:55.:37:58.

Government said was the largest fall in unemployment for years. A

:37:58.:38:05.

glimmer of good news. We're trying to assess where we are now run what

:38:05.:38:12.

will come away next year. There are just nine shopping days until

:38:12.:38:18.

Christmas. The buying frenzy masks of a harsh economic realities many

:38:18.:38:26.

people faced this year. Single mother Jackie has been saving hard

:38:26.:38:35.

to pay for the pestered season. -- festive. Rising costs, including

:38:35.:38:45.
:38:45.:38:48.

child care, means that money does not go far enough. If they do not

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match the cost of living in I don't see the point of tax credits. They

:38:56.:39:04.

are not helping us. The plans that we have at the moment are changing

:39:04.:39:09.

all the time. It is difficult to predict how things will materialise.

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There are so many changes, so many cuts, it is difficult to tell

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anybody exactly how it will affect them personally, which is often

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what people want to know. Market lives just outside Dumfries. She

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says she feels like a prisoner in her own home. -- market. She's

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frustrated by a limited transport services and her area. Taiwan to be

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dead. Unless something will let me get out and do the things I want to

:39:45.:39:55.
:39:55.:40:04.

do. Who will help me on and off my scooter? What has happened in this

:40:04.:40:08.

year is that councils have tightened up the criteria for three

:40:08.:40:16.

services. They have increased their charges for a variety of services.

:40:16.:40:20.

Given the settlement they have going into next year - a reduced

:40:20.:40:29.

overall settlement - they have been given �70 million and by anarchic

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relation match BT million pounds. - - by my calculation that should be

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�80 million. Unemployment figures may be down but that is cold

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comfort for this man with a call- centre job having come out of

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university. Debt is fine for a short time but I would like to go

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into a graduate profession ultimately. But it is very

:41:00.:41:08.

difficult to find him get on to something. Despite a fall in

:41:08.:41:12.

unemployment the underlying picture in Scotland is weak. Jobs are

:41:12.:41:22.
:41:22.:41:22.

falling. An activity is rising. -- inactivity. Growth will be weak

:41:22.:41:31.

next year, we forecast just over 1%. Against that background there will

:41:31.:41:40.

not be much job-creation next here. With those week forecast how can we

:41:41.:41:49.

get growth back? A radical programme of housebuilding. Rather

:41:49.:41:59.

late 1960s. -- rather like the. The economy has undergone a structural

:41:59.:42:08.

shift. We must do something. We must introduce a game changer. If

:42:08.:42:16.

we do not we will be flatlining. There is some good news for the

:42:16.:42:23.

oil-rich economy of the north-east. The North Sea is going very

:42:23.:42:32.

strongly. It is in a mature phase. There is more investment as you can

:42:32.:42:40.

recover more typical sources. We are into that phase now. Overall

:42:40.:42:48.

the picture for next year looks I am joined by the youth employment

:42:48.:42:55.

minister. Do you accept that governments cannot make much

:42:55.:43:02.

difference to the labour market? certainly accept that it is

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difficult for a devolved government. But we do have some good news this

:43:09.:43:13.

week as your piece rightly articulated. The fall in

:43:13.:43:18.

unemployment, the largest in four years. The youth employment

:43:18.:43:24.

statistics are certainly a welcome step in the right direction. 25,000

:43:24.:43:28.

less young people are seeking work at this time of the Year than this

:43:28.:43:36.

time last year. What about the overall economic predictions? Where

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is the evidence that a full range of powers would make a difference

:43:40.:43:49.

given the unemployment rate in Ireland? I visited Europe and the

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last four May and spoke to representatives -- in the last

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fortnight. There unemployment levels are something we should be

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striving for. We certainly do need a team changes and I would argue

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that the game changes the independence referendum. -- a game

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changer. In the draft budget we have announced that a large-scale

:44:21.:44:26.

employment recruitment incentive, in effect a wage subsidy, could

:44:26.:44:32.

provide up to 10,000 jobs for young people. So there is much more to be

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done and more that we could do it in a parliament with job-creating

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:44:45.:44:47.

Paras. Job-creating powers? What does that mean in practice?

:44:47.:44:50.

Department that has full control of taxation, welfare, National

:44:50.:44:57.

Insurance, and an ability to invest in large-scale capital investment

:44:57.:45:07.

projects. -- a Parliament. things like unemployment loss --

:45:07.:45:12.

laws, whatever Parliament has control that has to control

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important levers? Yes, I would argue that. There are European

:45:19.:45:24.

countries do much better than the United Kingdom. I would argue that

:45:24.:45:28.

in Scotland we're punching above await. If there has been a

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significant fall in youth unemployment. Do you expected to

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continue? I would never one to predict labour market statistics

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but we are very focused on the need to get more young people into work.

:45:44.:45:53.

But we also need to be in this for the long haul. I would argue that

:45:53.:45:59.

the pre-recession figures were too high. That is why I are believer in

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independence. Do you see how people get frustrated? When the totals are

:46:09.:46:16.

bad you blame Westminster, when there could you say it is the SNP.

:46:16.:46:21.

John Swinney has welcomed the fall in unemployment in Scotland, the

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lowest of all the UK country's. But he also said that we need to do

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much more given the fall in employment rates. We need to

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understand labour market statistics in the round. Behind the numbers

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are real people struggling to find work. Let's look at the effect on

:46:45.:46:52.

real people of the cutbacks in local services. The council tax

:46:52.:46:57.

freeze has worked out at just under 100 per ounce the year saved per

:46:57.:47:07.
:47:07.:47:07.

household. -- �100. When does the balance that where it would be

:47:07.:47:15.

money well spent for people to have paid that extra? It is important

:47:15.:47:19.

that those who are struggling the most right now are not asked to pay

:47:19.:47:25.

more. You will have heard the SNP government talking about the

:47:25.:47:29.

importance of the social wage. We asked arriving as hard as we can to

:47:29.:47:39.
:47:39.:47:41.

keep money in the pockets of hard- pressed people. These measures are

:47:41.:47:51.
:47:51.:47:53.

part of and imperative move. But as a result of your council tax these

:47:53.:47:59.

people are paying more on alternative services. Council tax

:47:59.:48:05.

is a comparatively small part of local-government income. We have

:48:05.:48:12.

protected local government's Shea. Not by enough, according to the

:48:12.:48:14.

professor, who said you are seriously adrift that you are

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serious about shoring up services. We have to live within our means.

:48:22.:48:25.

Oh we want to change those means but until the people of Scotland

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vote yes in a referendum we're at the mercy of the UK Government to

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in effect give us our budget, out of pocket money. We'll come back to

:48:37.:48:47.
:48:47.:48:49.

the economy just a moment but first Spreading Christmas Shia with a

:48:49.:48:56.

fall on a number of people out of work. But staff here warned that it

:48:56.:49:01.

is still tough to get work. It is difficult to get a job with so many

:49:01.:49:11.

people competing for the same job as you. By we have got to continue

:49:11.:49:21.

our efforts to boost employment base within Scotland. There is an

:49:21.:49:28.

extra �300 million for the Scottish Government to spend. There where

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tidings of discomfort and war four shots when the Scottish Retail

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Consortium said that sales were down 1.2 % leading up his Christmas.

:49:40.:49:50.
:49:50.:49:52.

Can the UK credit rating came under With me now is an MP and MEP and an

:49:53.:50:02.
:50:03.:50:06.

MSP. Thank you all very much indeed for coming in. Margaret Curran,

:50:06.:50:13.

which we are you voting in the welfare bill? Labour has said

:50:13.:50:16.

though we will wait to see the details. We are not comfortable

:50:16.:50:22.

with a government that gives us �3 billion to well-off people. -- its

:50:22.:50:30.

�3 billion. Whilst attacking people on maternity allowance and tax

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credits. That will not help the economy. We're certainly not

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comfortable with that as things stand but we must wait to see the

:50:37.:50:47.
:50:47.:50:51.

Quite unique in a more detail? it stands, I am certain we will be

:50:51.:50:58.

voting against it. They might be persuaded that what they are doing

:50:58.:51:03.

is wrong and affecting the quality of the lives of people on their

:51:03.:51:10.

benefits. They are presenting a false argument and saying it is

:51:10.:51:15.

about taking people who are scrounging and not paying their way,

:51:15.:51:21.

but these benefits will affect the working people. Tax credits have

:51:21.:51:24.

been successful and material lot to people and attacking those people

:51:24.:51:30.

does not help anyone. The people worst affected by those are people

:51:31.:51:35.

who are in work and are struggling to get by another on the moors then

:51:35.:51:44.

comes. -- the list in comes. believe that all sectors have to

:51:44.:51:49.

share the burden of trying to reduce the debt. Do you think that

:51:49.:51:56.

is what is happening now in? want to make sure there is a fair

:51:56.:52:01.

share of taking the road of this and already this week, we have seen

:52:01.:52:10.

worries about the triple A credit rating. Labour say we should have a

:52:10.:52:16.

Plan B and it all seems to be about borrowing more work. I do not think

:52:16.:52:20.

that is a credible choice to make at all. You can see across Europe

:52:20.:52:25.

that more borrowing has meant you are unable to borrow a tall and

:52:25.:52:30.

inflation goes up. That would hit many householders across our

:52:30.:52:40.
:52:40.:52:40.

society. We have made the right choices and have tackled the rich

:52:40.:52:45.

and they are paying more or under the plans. Be enough? They could

:52:45.:52:53.

always pay more. We will be cracking down on tax evasion. Right

:52:54.:52:57.

across the board, we have to ensure that everybody carries their fair

:52:57.:53:04.

share. The number one problem we have is the huge debt that Labour

:53:04.:53:08.

left the Hind. Even the credit agencies are saying that the

:53:08.:53:17.

economy is stagnating. If you lose the credit rating, at the borrowing

:53:17.:53:25.

costs will go up anyway. We have to tackle the huge deficit we are

:53:25.:53:31.

currently running. The big challenge for Labour is that they

:53:31.:53:38.

cannot demonstrate how they would balance the books. When you look at

:53:38.:53:43.

the imperative for economic growth, do you not think now there has to

:53:43.:53:46.

be a radical rethink of what the strategy is coming out of

:53:46.:53:54.

Westminster? It is not all bad news and unemployment is falling and is

:53:55.:54:02.

much lower than many people predicted that this stage. There

:54:02.:54:06.

have been 1 million private sector jobs created since 2010. There is

:54:06.:54:14.

good news in some areas. It is absolutely right that the

:54:14.:54:19.

imperative as for the government to tackle debt levels. The UK has the

:54:19.:54:24.

highest debt level of any major Western economy. Labour says, let's

:54:25.:54:34.

spend more money and accelerate the rate of increase of any debt. There

:54:34.:54:38.

is no silver dot here. There are a number of reforms that the

:54:39.:54:44.

government is pressing ahead with and there are supply-side reforms,

:54:44.:54:48.

but it will take a long time to work out the economic mess of the

:54:48.:54:55.

last Labour government. The current government is doing a good job

:54:55.:55:00.

itself of threatening the triple A credit rating itself. Borrowing is

:55:00.:55:07.

going up as a result of these policies... Hang on, George! We do

:55:07.:55:13.

not need more right wing supply- side economics. What this economy

:55:13.:55:21.

crucially needs is a demand let recovery. We are above our heads in

:55:21.:55:27.

debt as opposed to just our next? We have had this government for two

:55:27.:55:30.

years and all that has happened is that they have reduced their

:55:30.:55:39.

forecasts every single time and the economy is shrinking. Scotland is

:55:39.:55:45.

the ad up in which employment fell the most in the UK last year.

:55:45.:55:48.

Borrowing is going up because we have so many people claiming

:55:48.:55:56.

benefits. Supply-side economics is the problem. Do you think Scotland

:55:56.:55:59.

has not done as well in job- creation as in other parts of the

:55:59.:56:07.

UK? It is a mixed picture and looking back over the last year, in

:56:07.:56:13.

some months, Scotland has performed better than the UK. We have some

:56:13.:56:20.

strengths in the Scottish economy such as All Ireland gas. -- Oil and

:56:21.:56:29.

Gas. There are still a lot of problems in parts of Scotland and

:56:29.:56:32.

there is no sign of the Scottish government using the powers they

:56:32.:56:41.

have to help business. They are imposing more taxes on business.

:56:41.:56:45.

All that is going to do is make it more difficult for the private

:56:45.:56:50.

sector to grow our way out of recession. What do you what to do

:56:50.:56:53.

in government to relieve unemployment that you're not being

:56:53.:57:01.

allowed to divide the Tories? would like to invest more, if we

:57:01.:57:08.

could, in trying to advance growth. We still have to make sure that we

:57:08.:57:15.

balance the books and show a credible plan that we can reduce...

:57:15.:57:20.

Invest more in what, capital projects? We have announced plans

:57:20.:57:26.

for capital investment at a youth employment programme. We have the

:57:26.:57:29.

state funded bank lending scheme which the Liberal Democrats have

:57:29.:57:33.

announced as well. These are all measures to create and stimulate

:57:33.:57:38.

growth because one of the fundamental challenges that new

:57:38.:57:45.

businesses face at the moment is a lack of credit. State backing for

:57:45.:57:49.

lending and the State Bank we're trying to create should help. These

:57:50.:57:57.

are the right measures to try to stimulate the economy. We have put

:57:57.:58:02.

in place the facilities for banks to try to make that happen and we

:58:02.:58:06.

are working with the private sector to see if they can take on and

:58:06.:58:10.

invest in these infrastructure projects. That is different from

:58:10.:58:18.

the state doing it itself. The it businesses are sitting on vast

:58:18.:58:21.

amounts of money but they do not want to spend it because they seem

:58:21.:58:26.

to have no confidence. How do you turn that around? There is no

:58:26.:58:32.

silver bullet. It is the government at a UK level and the Scottish

:58:32.:58:42.
:58:42.:58:43.

level up using the powers they have. Setting back the rates are

:58:43.:58:48.

valuation until 2017 is sending the wrong message. Up with capital

:58:48.:58:52.

spending, we need to sort out the procurement rules because spending

:58:52.:59:01.

a lot of money on capital does not inflict domestic spending - it at

:59:01.:59:06.

nearly helps overseas companies. You have international obligations

:59:06.:59:11.

which require you to go to the cheapest tender or you are at fault

:59:11.:59:15.

yourself as the purchaser. You cannot ring-fence where the

:59:15.:59:20.

contracts ago. You cannot but you can look at things like social

:59:20.:59:30.
:59:30.:59:30.

obligations which are permitted under EU rules. If it happens in

:59:30.:59:35.

other countries, it can have him here. Business a business

:59:35.:59:40.

confidence issue? It is crucial and that is why a lot of measures of

:59:40.:59:47.

this government have not worked. On the issue of the shovel already

:59:47.:59:52.

projects, it seems as if George Osborne has given them what they

:59:52.:59:59.

want. We need to start working on the ground. The track record of the

:59:59.:00:03.

SNP Government has not been particularly strong on this and the

:00:03.:00:06.

one thing you do not do in the middle of the recession is cut the

:00:06.:00:15.

housing budget by 40%. People have a terrible choice between these two

:00:15.:00:19.

governments and the need eight different course. Thank you all for

:00:19.:00:29.
:00:29.:00:39.

that. Stay tuned for our 2012 President Obama will meet the

:00:39.:00:49.
:00:49.:00:57.

families of the genetic it school The body of the nurse who was found

:00:57.:01:02.

hanged after taking a hoax call up from the -- about the Duchess of

:01:02.:01:09.

Cambridge. She will be buried in her home village tomorrow.

:01:09.:01:13.

But have been counted in Egypt following the first round of voting

:01:13.:01:16.

in the referendum on the constitution which has divided the

:01:16.:01:22.

country. Supporters of President Mohamed Morsi say that early

:01:22.:01:27.

indications say the vote will go their way.

:01:27.:01:32.

It has been an unforgettable 12 months for British sport and

:01:32.:01:35.

tonight the winner of the BBC Sports personality of the year will

:01:35.:01:40.

be announced. With so many achievements to choose from, the

:01:40.:01:50.
:01:50.:01:51.

short list had to be increased. That is all the news for nowt.

:01:51.:02:01.
:02:01.:02:04.

Good afternoon. Up rescuers will bring aboard a damaged bought in

:02:04.:02:09.

which a man died during storms. It is still adrift off the North Sea

:02:09.:02:14.

coast. What has been described as a very

:02:14.:02:21.

complex salvage operation is under way. The ship is drifting without

:02:21.:02:28.

power about 120 miles from Aberdeen. It was 4:30am on Saturday when a

:02:28.:02:33.

Mayday call was picked up from the vessel. The rescue operation was

:02:33.:02:36.

launched including three helicopters been very difficult

:02:36.:02:42.

weather conditions. One crewman has died and his body is still thought

:02:42.:02:48.

to be on board the vessel which has been significantly damaged. Because

:02:48.:02:53.

of the nature of the salvage, the operators are unable to say it when

:02:53.:03:00.

they will get the ship back into port.

:03:00.:03:04.

There is a warning Scotland's new police force of will have debts

:03:04.:03:08.

totalling �100 million. The Scottish Conservatives have raised

:03:08.:03:13.

concerns about the scale of bedecked. The Scottish government

:03:13.:03:19.

have said they will be given funds to service the debt.

:03:20.:03:23.

Three Scots are in contention for the BBC Sports personality of the

:03:23.:03:28.

Year award tonight. Catherine Grainger, Sir Chris Hoy and Andy

:03:28.:03:38.
:03:38.:03:39.

Murray and the running. Now it's a A much quieter day of weather

:03:40.:03:45.

coming up. Some brightness with the best of the sunshine in it eastern

:03:45.:03:52.

areas towards the Lothians and the Borders. A few showers in western

:03:52.:03:58.

areas. Temperatures are on the mild side compared with what we have

:03:58.:04:08.
:04:08.:04:13.

been used to. Predominantly light It is that time of year again, Iowa

:04:13.:04:23.
:04:23.:04:23.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1947 seconds

:04:23.:06:07.

and you look back at the big I don't know why race around me. I

:06:07.:06:15.

am not that special. -- why race around me. -- why are they surround

:06:15.:06:22.

me. The Scottish Government has taken opinion from eminent legal

:06:22.:06:27.

authorities in support of its view that an independent Scotland would

:06:27.:06:31.

continue in membership of the European Union. But we have not

:06:31.:06:37.

sought specific legal advice. But as the Edinburgh agreement provides

:06:37.:06:42.

the exact context we now have the basis from which specific legal

:06:42.:06:52.
:06:52.:06:52.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1947 seconds

:06:52.:11:36.

This sum I was called a rebel force I think the �545 million resource

:11:36.:11:38.

budget to �546 million is by definition an increase in funding.

:11:39.:11:48.
:11:49.:11:51.

I apologise to the chamber for this I am an expert in tourism. I am the

:11:51.:11:56.

evidence. I am more and expel than the people you would like me to

:11:56.:12:06.
:12:06.:12:20.

It is ridiculous! Do not scratch The idea that Scotland is a land

:12:20.:12:24.

where that the thing is if the is alive. Someone always pays for it

:12:24.:12:34.
:12:34.:13:02.

In the west wing will be later than patchier. -- rain. There will be

:13:02.:13:09.

snow on a high arc around. There are the potential for a few

:13:09.:13:19.
:13:19.:13:19.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1947 seconds

:13:19.:14:20.

flurries or are more will. Who the The picture it but there was Norman

:14:20.:14:26.

Robinson. Joining me right now are Detective Chief the incident ended

:14:26.:14:35.

John Carlin in and professor of economics at Caledonian University.

:14:35.:14:43.

And Professor Tom divine. Welcome to you all. When you look back

:14:43.:14:45.

where we have reached, how significant is the Edinburgh

:14:45.:14:54.

agreement? It has practical implications. More important is the

:14:54.:15:03.

symbolism. The race is on now. But is in no sense in my view a perfect

:15:03.:15:09.

solution to the great national decision. It demonstrates a great

:15:09.:15:13.

democratic deficit. The majority of Scottish people as we speak would

:15:13.:15:18.

favour a for auction. That has not been offered to them. -- a third

:15:18.:15:23.

auction. It is not good enough for politicians to say it would be too

:15:23.:15:27.

difficult to frame that question. They are supposed to be servants of

:15:27.:15:33.

the people. The people are being denied the possibility of that

:15:33.:15:39.

three part of vote. My sense is that, particularly the Labour Party,

:15:39.:15:44.

because the Lib Dems are annihilated in the next election,

:15:44.:15:50.

my belief is that there will be, either in the last year before the

:15:50.:15:57.

decision, say, 2013 of 2014, the Labour Party will begin to shape

:15:57.:16:01.

something like evolution maximum. They will make a solemn contract

:16:01.:16:06.

with the Scottish people that if the UK Government is elected and

:16:06.:16:11.

the Labour tradition then they will deliver in the same way that they

:16:11.:16:14.

will have up evolution. That is the speculation that I shouldn't really

:16:14.:16:20.

make because the future is not my period as everybody knows. But I

:16:20.:16:25.

sense they will have to be something like that. A young person

:16:25.:16:29.

at a debate I wasn't bought and recently asked the basic question,

:16:29.:16:34.

what is going to happen if there is a no vote. I look back to the

:16:34.:16:40.

collective depression that the country had in 1979, there has to

:16:40.:16:44.

be some alternative, especially if the opinion polls keep showing that

:16:44.:16:50.

it has come to be no vote. Within the agreement says that countries

:16:50.:16:53.

will work together constructively in the best interests of the people

:16:54.:17:03.

of Scotland. What is that actually worth when we come into it? Where I

:17:03.:17:08.

work I engage with young people all the time. There heavily politicised

:17:08.:17:13.

at the moment. There are engaged in the debate. But you earlier piece

:17:13.:17:17.

indicates their economic would disenfranchised. They cannot get

:17:17.:17:20.

jobs. The situation with youth unemployment is desperate and will

:17:20.:17:25.

get worse so I think if we are looking at giving youngsters the

:17:25.:17:29.

vote and engaging in a debate we need to give them jobs and the

:17:29.:17:39.

opportunities. That is not happening. Which policies are

:17:39.:17:49.
:17:49.:17:50.

making the most impact for you but in alcohol centre stage? Minimum

:17:50.:18:00.
:18:00.:18:01.

pricing as a whole population thing. We say, that is not a layer of

:18:01.:18:09.

problem. Without all I think there is an opportunity to do something

:18:09.:18:14.

different around that. But I also think that we're at the stage where

:18:14.:18:19.

there are lots of good things happening. Every time something

:18:19.:18:24.

feels we think it is the strategy that has failed. That need a new

:18:24.:18:27.

plan, a new leader. The truth is that most of the failures up

:18:27.:18:35.

delivery. It needs to be far more about listen to people and

:18:35.:18:42.

communities. And then listened to what they need in delivering

:18:42.:18:52.
:18:52.:18:53.

services to suit. Absolutely right. There is too much short-termism.

:18:53.:19:00.

But the other thing, going back to the alcohol aspect, there was a

:19:00.:19:04.

terrible scourge, much greater than we had today, in 19th century

:19:04.:19:11.

cities. Even interventions by charities and the Church had

:19:11.:19:16.

minimal effect. What had the effect was a steep increase in the tax on

:19:16.:19:23.

alcohol. We saw considerable short- term dramatic fall in consumption.

:19:23.:19:30.

The government must press hard along these lines. Accepting what

:19:31.:19:34.

John says, and that the delivery does not need to change day today,

:19:34.:19:43.

if we look at their beck pictures, a fundamental shift, basically, and

:19:43.:19:47.

the whole economic structure, the prediction been that we will not go

:19:47.:19:52.

back to growth, what it needs is a big response, do you think that it

:19:52.:20:00.

response could or should be? That is a difficult question. It is not

:20:00.:20:09.

fair! A couple of the issues in New Brighton, perhaps I'm being a bit

:20:09.:20:13.

flippant at this time of the year, looking at the unemployment figures,

:20:13.:20:17.

things are changing in terms of structural change. If we look at

:20:17.:20:21.

part-time employment those jobs are predominantly going to men. That is

:20:21.:20:25.

very different from before. The piece that you had about Prince

:20:25.:20:29.

Charles to in the weather forecast, maybe that is his second job.

:20:29.:20:34.

Because we're finding that men are taking on second jobs. So the part-

:20:34.:20:38.

time jobs are not the only jobs, their second jobs. That is a

:20:38.:20:42.

fundamental shift in terms of what is happening in their households.

:20:42.:20:47.

Where a woman in that household economy? A further economic system

:20:47.:20:52.

does not recognise why and where men have been two jobs, and we have

:20:52.:20:55.

that leaves woman, we need a fundamental rethink about the best

:20:55.:21:05.
:21:05.:21:08.

What is the effect of women becoming increasingly economic

:21:08.:21:18.
:21:18.:21:20.

disenfranchised? We have just been speaking about gender equality. How

:21:20.:21:26.

do you define what the role of a man is? You're talking about the

:21:26.:21:30.

notion of equality but they are given it a notion of what is

:21:30.:21:34.

expected of them and that comes off of television and the Internet and

:21:35.:21:41.

pornography, what they think life is. They conform to that and may

:21:41.:21:46.

find life very different -- difficult. We can reduce gang

:21:46.:21:56.
:21:56.:21:56.

violence but we cannot get these young people jobs. It has a serious

:21:56.:22:02.

impact an hour worked for next year is redemption. We had one young

:22:02.:22:07.

gang who work for six months and did a fantastic job and then at the

:22:07.:22:12.

end of it they were some pin a job and then found out he had four

:22:12.:22:17.

previous convictions and would not take him on. These were previous

:22:17.:22:25.

convictions for when he was 17 and 18. He is effectively sent down for

:22:25.:22:34.

the rest of his life of up -- his life. He or redemption has a nice

:22:34.:22:40.

ring to it? Especially at this time of year but I think the outlook is

:22:40.:22:47.

not good. The forecasters are telling us that this thing is

:22:47.:22:52.

virtually endless. John is at the sharp end and I am not but what I

:22:52.:22:57.

fear is that thinking back to the 1930s in particular, the emergence

:22:57.:23:01.

of young males who have difficulties with their identities

:23:01.:23:09.

for the reasons he has given. It is the structural under class. Be much

:23:09.:23:19.
:23:19.:23:19.

bigger one and a generation will pull even without employment. There

:23:19.:23:26.

is a brighter side as well. If we have been through this in the 1970s,

:23:26.:23:31.

there were much bigger difficulties. The Scottish economy has

:23:31.:23:36.

revolutionised itself over the last 30 years and the employment rate is

:23:36.:23:42.

slightly higher here than it is in England. It is nothing to be proud

:23:43.:23:47.

of because there is a lot of under- employment but the situation would

:23:47.:23:51.

be much worse if the old dinosaurs of the economy were still in place.

:23:51.:23:58.

The economy is much more balanced now. The reason why this happened,

:23:58.:24:06.

and it is always blamed on Thatcher, is that it had been waiting to

:24:06.:24:15.

happen for 30 or 40 years before. The result is that there was horror

:24:15.:24:19.

in the 1980s and 1990s but the result of that is we now have a

:24:19.:24:26.

much more balanced economic system than we had before. It is important

:24:26.:24:30.

that we stuck to think outside of the box because this spring will be

:24:30.:24:36.

long term. We have 10 seconds, what is coming down the road? More

:24:36.:24:40.

Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser.


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