20/01/2013 Sunday Politics Scotland


20/01/2013

Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser with political news, interviews and debate. Andrew Neil looks at David Cameron's future Europe plans with Dr Liam Fox and Douglas Alexander.


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Good morning. We'll come to Sunday politics. The worst hostage crisis

:00:40.:00:45.

in British history has ended with terrible loss of life in Algeria.

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What happens now it as the desert wastes of North Africa become the

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new front against terrorism. David Cameron's big speech on

:00:56.:01:03.

Europe is delayed but it will be this week. Shadow Foreign Secretary

:01:03.:01:09.

Douglas Alexander joins us close-up the Tories prepare to take on the

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teachers in a row over performance- related pay.

:01:12.:01:15.

We will it improve standards in schools? And on Sunday Politics

:01:15.:01:18.

Scotland, more on the UK's relationship with Europe and what

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it could mean for Scotland. We'll hear from the leader of UKIP,

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:01:31.:01:31.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2113 seconds

:01:31.:36:44.

Nigel Farage, and the SNP MEP Alyn Headteachers are professional

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people who know how to conduct appraisals of up we will be able to

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look at the overall effect. Does that mean you'll have to be nice to

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the head teacher? OFSTED will look at how they conduct their

:37:00.:37:09.

appraisals. The head teacher will be appraised by the governing body.

:37:09.:37:12.

The head teachers seem to what this move, at the what this discretion

:37:12.:37:18.

and think it will be better for teachers? Will be academies

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arrangement, it has been possible for those schools to opt out. They

:37:25.:37:34.

have not chosen to do it. Why not? They have it in the academies so

:37:34.:37:39.

why are they not doing it? Most academies sign up to the document

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and that document will be revised for September. What the Government

:37:43.:37:48.

is trying to do is change the culture in our schools so that we

:37:48.:37:52.

can raise the status of the teaching profession and reward the

:37:52.:37:56.

best teachers. That is what happens to professionals outside of

:37:56.:38:01.

teaching. Given that there is not much money in the Budget, does it

:38:01.:38:06.

not follow that funds are limited so if you pay one person more, you

:38:06.:38:16.

have to freeze me or pay me less? Head teachers have to marshal their

:38:16.:38:20.

budgets very closely and they have to have the flexibility to reward

:38:20.:38:24.

the best teachers with the best pay rises. That is he you raise

:38:24.:38:31.

standards. You exist on national pay bargaining. This would be the

:38:31.:38:36.

end of the national pay bargaining? What we have had is a review system

:38:36.:38:40.

for quite a long time and I can assure you there is the lot a

:38:40.:38:45.

bargaining at other levels. The National Union of Teachers are

:38:45.:38:49.

concerned about a lot of things - the curriculum and the state of

:38:49.:38:53.

education... Do you feel strongly enough about this to take

:38:53.:38:58.

industrial action? What we want to do is make the case for saying that

:38:58.:39:02.

one of the difficulties if you break up the system is that every

:39:02.:39:07.

single school will have to pay -- have their own pay arrangements.

:39:07.:39:16.

That means they could take it their eye off the importance aspects.

:39:16.:39:20.

is about using the appraisal system to identify what training is needed

:39:20.:39:26.

to nurture teachers. Teachers are brought on Andy extra flexibility

:39:26.:39:36.
:39:36.:39:39.

they have could lead to more Good morning and welcome to Sunday

:39:39.:39:44.

Politics Scotland. Coming up on the programme today. David Cameron will

:39:44.:39:50.

now make his much trailed Europe Speech this week. So in theory, if

:39:50.:39:52.

there's a Yes vote in the independence referendum, 2015 could

:39:52.:39:54.

see a Scottish government negotiating to hug Brussels closer,

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whilst a Westminster government could manoeuvre to pull in the

:39:57.:40:06.

opposite direction. We'll be talking live to the UKIP Leader

:40:06.:40:12.

Nigel Farage and the SNP MEP Alyn Smith.

:40:12.:40:15.

It's been 20 years since the Czech and Slovak republics separated in

:40:15.:40:19.

the velvet divorce. As time moves on, we ask if there are any big

:40:19.:40:25.

lessons to be learned from how they negotiated their parting?

:40:25.:40:29.

And as MSPs look at ways to further reduce teen pregnancy, we ask: why

:40:29.:40:39.
:40:39.:40:40.

it is so high in the country's It was the speech that never was.

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But David Cameron still plans to set out his vision for the UK's

:40:43.:40:48.

future in Europe this week. With plenty of red meat to satisfy Tory

:40:48.:40:54.

Eurosceptics. There are two inter- twined strands to this debate, of

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course, as we in Scotland debate independence in Europe. Raymond

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Buchanan examines how Edinburgh and London view Brussels in their very

:41:01.:41:11.
:41:11.:41:12.

different ways. Will come to European politics. The

:41:12.:41:18.

latest EU deal struck last Friday was a bit fish. It's a subject that

:41:18.:41:23.

unites the SNP and the Scottish Conservatives. Both parties what

:41:23.:41:26.

the way in which European deals like this are but radically changes

:41:26.:41:32.

but on other issues they are not so united, not least in how close a

:41:32.:41:37.

relationship Scotland and Britain should have led the EU. David

:41:37.:41:40.

Cameron's cancelled speech was to argue for a new European deal

:41:40.:41:46.

warning the institutions were increasingly isolating those they

:41:46.:41:51.

were supposed to serve. The SNP's policy on Europe is becoming more

:41:51.:41:59.

pragmatic. In terms of returning to the original narratives, we want

:41:59.:42:04.

independence in Europe. This is very clear and quite distinct from

:42:04.:42:10.

Westminster politics. It is very likely the SNP will decide this

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could be one of their strong cards in the end and we shall see how

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Europe plays into the debate. this week, the Deputy First

:42:21.:42:25.

Minister Nicola Sturgeon will give a speech in Dublin outlining the

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SNP's vision for an independent Scotland at the heart of Europe.

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She will contrast the certainty of her party's commitment to the EU

:42:34.:42:39.

with David Cameron's questioning of it. Which of these is closest to

:42:39.:42:44.

the Scottish people? Evidence of Scottish attitudes has been a

:42:44.:42:50.

little bit more pro EU than the UK as a whole but we have to presume

:42:50.:43:00.

that Scotland is also predominantly in the eurosceptic mood. This may

:43:00.:43:05.

question the SNP's strategy of being pro-European, not shared by

:43:05.:43:15.

all nationalists. It is very ironic because the yes campaign is not

:43:15.:43:21.

eurosceptic in itself. The official campaign echoes what the boss says

:43:21.:43:25.

and if Alex Salmond says we are going to be in Europe, you'd better

:43:25.:43:30.

like it! David Cameron is facing criticism from his own side not

:43:30.:43:35.

least from former Deputy Prime Minister Michael Heseltine. He said

:43:35.:43:40.

the strategy was ill-advised and potentially damaging to business.

:43:40.:43:47.

European politics has often been messy but this week's fish stocks

:43:47.:43:51.

shows a deal is often done. The question is what kind of

:43:51.:43:54.

relationship Scotland and Britain what with the their neighbours. I'm

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now joined from London by the leader of the UK Independence Party,

:43:57.:44:00.

Nigel Farage, and from our Edinburgh studio by Alyn Smith, the

:44:00.:44:06.

SNP MEP. Good morning to you both. First of

:44:06.:44:13.

all, are you hoping to capitalise on David Cameron's European moves

:44:14.:44:19.

here in Scotland? The whole Scottish debate has been very odd

:44:19.:44:23.

because of this whole campaign the SNP have led for independence - you

:44:24.:44:28.

cannot be independent if you also want to be part of the European

:44:28.:44:34.

Union. The entire Scottish debates really is being redefined in the

:44:34.:44:39.

radical way and I never thought I would say this but thank you, up

:44:40.:44:45.

Jose Manuel Barroso, for making it absolutely clear that if Scotland

:44:45.:44:48.

it believes the United Kingdom, she would have to sign a new treaty

:44:48.:44:53.

that would commit her to signing up to the European currency. That has

:44:53.:44:55.

made a bigger difference in the Scottish debate than anything that

:44:55.:45:02.

has happened before it. Turning to the SNP, you're party attacks

:45:02.:45:07.

eurosceptics. Perhaps in Scotland we few things a little differently.

:45:07.:45:12.

You would only get about 3% of the vote here in Scotland. The reason

:45:12.:45:18.

we have done poorly in Scotland is because the word, independence,

:45:18.:45:22.

means something different in Scottish politics that has never

:45:22.:45:27.

really been properly examined. Up people can see bracingly that what

:45:27.:45:32.

is offered from Scotland is not independence but in fact at a

:45:32.:45:35.

deeper dependency and the total loss of democracy to European

:45:35.:45:41.

institutions. Recent opinion polls back this up. We are now in a

:45:41.:45:47.

position where UKIP can make advance is in Scotland. They are

:45:47.:45:52.

very clear statement there. You are hoping to capitalise on David

:45:52.:45:57.

Cameron's moves but it seems you might be slightly expose their.

:45:57.:46:02.

What does independence really mean? Coming in the taxi here this

:46:02.:46:06.

morning I made a decision to be nice to Nigel and praise some of

:46:06.:46:12.

the advances may have made an their concessions to wait disgruntled

:46:12.:46:17.

Middle England. That is a clear statement but that is completely

:46:17.:46:22.

fictitious. Jose Mau Mau of are also absolutely did not say there

:46:22.:46:26.

would be a new treaty. He said if the state leaves that does not

:46:26.:46:35.

negotiate that is a poor country. - - Jose Manuel Barroso. We have

:46:35.:46:41.

allowed in Scotland for 30 years Scotland's interests to be decided

:46:41.:46:45.

and represented by successive UK ministers who have neither shared

:46:45.:46:49.

our beliefs nor articulated them well. It is no surprise we have not

:46:49.:46:54.

done as well as we could have done by a representing ourselves. The

:46:54.:46:59.

idea that Ireland caused much Denmark, Sweden, Finland are not

:46:59.:47:05.

independent is absurd. I am glad to see EU kept getting asked some

:47:05.:47:10.

difficult questions because they can pull together saw the empty --

:47:10.:47:15.

sovereignty. In order to do that, we need to be at the table doing

:47:15.:47:25.
:47:25.:47:27.

some heavy lifting not posturing We are hearing it from the Deputy

:47:27.:47:34.

First Minister that a UK pulls out of Europe it will have a chilling

:47:34.:47:38.

effect. Better to be at the heart of it rather than on the sidelines,

:47:38.:47:46.

as Alyn Smith put at. What would happen to common

:47:46.:47:50.

fisheries is we would be like nor way. The management of those waters

:47:51.:47:56.

would purely be the responsibility of elected Scottish officials. Tens

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of thousands more jobs in at the Scottish fishing industry alone. I

:48:02.:48:05.

do not buy the scare stories that if we are not part of the European

:48:05.:48:10.

Union cannot go on doing business with them. Mercedes and Volkswagen

:48:10.:48:14.

will want to keep selling of their cars in their United Kingdom

:48:15.:48:20.

regardless of whether we are part of a political union or not. At the

:48:20.:48:25.

heart of this is that you cannot be independent if 75% of your laws are

:48:25.:48:30.

made by foreign institutions. Scotland would frankly be so small

:48:30.:48:40.

it would be irrelevant. I want to pick up on that. You want

:48:40.:48:44.

the Common Fisheries Policy and renegotiated. You are not happy

:48:44.:48:48.

with the Common Agricultural Policy. You voted against with Labour. If

:48:48.:48:54.

you are not as pro-European as you portray yourself.

:48:54.:49:00.

With respect of the whole debate is wrong. It tries to drill things

:49:00.:49:06.

down to black and white. The only question for the SNP is, what is in

:49:06.:49:11.

the best interests of Scotland? That doesn't mean we think

:49:11.:49:15.

everything in the European Union as super. There is lots of reform I

:49:15.:49:24.

would happily see. Ruinous journeys to Strasbourg every month and good.

:49:24.:49:29.

Lots of things need to be changed. But Nigel has made a point

:49:29.:49:34.

repeatedly, unchallenged. I specifically sought membership of

:49:34.:49:39.

the Switzerland - and more weight delegation of the parliament. We go

:49:39.:49:44.

to them every six months. The Norwegians have just concluded a 20

:49:44.:49:49.

you study about the functioning of the agreement. They concluded that

:49:49.:49:54.

they are more integrated into law than the UK as by virtue of the

:49:54.:50:00.

fact they are fully signed-up to be showing an accords, whereas they --

:50:00.:50:10.
:50:10.:50:13.

we are not. -- Schengen. Nigel is a world-class snake-oil salesman but

:50:13.:50:19.

the people of Scotland are not buying it.

:50:19.:50:23.

Lots of people in Scotland are saying that they SNP are not being

:50:23.:50:32.

clear about what might happen with the currency and the poor controls.

:50:33.:50:41.

-- border. We are being clear, if you take the

:50:41.:50:49.

time to read what we are saying. What is a very clear is that the

:50:49.:50:54.

European Union will not want to lose us. We do not want to leave.

:50:54.:51:00.

We can be part of a coalition for change. The reason that Prime

:51:00.:51:03.

Minister Cameron went to the Netherlands is because they are

:51:03.:51:09.

currently reviewing their European Union arrangements. As is the case

:51:09.:51:15.

in Finland. Other ways of doing this are possible.

:51:15.:51:23.

I want to pick up. About border controls. You mentioned a possible

:51:23.:51:28.

influx of Romanians and Bulgarians in at 2015. Do you appreciate that

:51:28.:51:33.

the attitude in Scotland is a slightly different?

:51:33.:51:41.

Yes, they have not had a massive migration that parts of England has.

:51:41.:51:46.

My attitude towards foreign workers is that if they are skilled, great.

:51:46.:51:50.

But we should not discriminate in favour of people from Europe and

:51:51.:51:57.

the caressed the rest of the world. -- against. The anger in England,

:51:58.:52:03.

which will spread to Scotland, is that next year we are letting in

:52:03.:52:08.

two incredibly poor countries. Does people will be entitled to come not

:52:09.:52:14.

just to work but to gain access to benefits immediately. This will

:52:14.:52:24.
:52:24.:52:24.

become an issue in British politics. What is the SNP policy?

:52:24.:52:28.

I get uncomfortable hearing an Englishman talk about migration. It

:52:29.:52:33.

jars with my world-view. The people of Scotland are best placed to

:52:33.:52:38.

decide who lives here and watch our arrangement with the rest of Europe

:52:38.:52:43.

should be. Freedom of movement is a crucial part of the European the

:52:43.:52:47.

raison d'etre. To improve the fortunes of Romania and Bulgaria is

:52:48.:52:51.

to trade with them and a single market and bring up living

:52:51.:52:56.

standards towards European averages. Immigration is a different subject

:52:56.:53:02.

in Scotland. Nigel, you want Scotland that they

:53:02.:53:08.

cannot expect a blank cheque in the event of independence.

:53:08.:53:13.

The fact is that the European Union imperialists are bringing in poorer

:53:13.:53:19.

and poorer countries. The even want Turkey to join. There is unanimity

:53:19.:53:25.

on that. You will become a net pay her into a system where you will

:53:25.:53:31.

not be allowed to catch your own cash in your own waters. Frankly,

:53:31.:53:35.

the European Union is good for professional career politicians but

:53:35.:53:43.

not for ordinary people. A quick work?

:53:43.:53:49.

I am not sure I am gay career professional politician. -- I am

:53:49.:53:54.

not sure that I am a career politician. We have the ability to

:53:54.:53:58.

work with our friends and colleagues to achieve better things

:53:58.:54:01.

than the otherwise would. There is nothing wrong with membership that

:54:01.:54:08.

would be put right by independence and speaking for ourselves. -- that

:54:08.:54:17.

won't be put right. The Czech and Slovak republics

:54:17.:54:23.

glided apart 20 years ago. For many it is an interesting comparison for

:54:23.:54:29.

Scottish independence, if we reach that stage. We travelled east to

:54:29.:54:39.
:54:39.:54:42.

find out more. Pride is a city of a romance and a revolution. -- --

:54:42.:54:52.
:54:52.:54:55.

Prague. Protests here caused Czech communism to melt away. The country

:54:55.:55:02.

split in two. Slovakia celebrated independence at the time. 20 years

:55:02.:55:06.

later, in the capital, Bratislava, the Government say that statehood

:55:06.:55:12.

has paid off. People said it was not the best

:55:12.:55:16.

idea but right now we are doing very well, the Czech Republic are

:55:16.:55:22.

doing very well and our friendship is better than ever.

:55:22.:55:27.

Things were more sombre in the Czech Republic. Two decades later,

:55:27.:55:37.

a mixed assessment is offered. Being a prime minister, it has some

:55:37.:55:41.

advantages, but the international weight of both republics together

:55:41.:55:49.

his lesser in -- in the former -- lesser than the former

:55:49.:55:55.

Czechoslovakia. The history of post-communist

:55:55.:56:00.

central Europe is dramatically different from the United Kingdom.

:56:00.:56:04.

But both sides over the debate in Scottish independence attempted to

:56:04.:56:12.

draw lessons from the so called a velvet divorce. The Sunday politics

:56:12.:56:16.

has learned that Alex Salmond met the Czech Republic President at the

:56:16.:56:21.

Olympics and John Swinney held informal talks with his counterpart

:56:21.:56:31.
:56:31.:56:35.

in crack. We do not know what was discussed. -- in Prague.

:56:35.:56:42.

Emotions run high. Things happen which you do not foresee in advance.

:56:42.:56:49.

I would say, be careful, go step by step.

:56:49.:56:53.

In Czechoslovakia the step that they must was to consult the people

:56:53.:56:58.

in a referendum. That is one aspect of the history here that will not

:56:58.:57:05.

be repeated in Scotland. With me now is professor James

:57:05.:57:10.

Mitchell, the head of the school of Government and Public Policy at

:57:10.:57:19.

Strathclyde University. It is an important decision. How easy is it

:57:19.:57:28.

to make this a Scottish comparison? There are certain things in the

:57:28.:57:33.

Czechoslovak in situation which are relevant to our situation, but much

:57:33.:57:41.

that is irrelevant. Clearly, Czechoslovakia was a very different

:57:41.:57:46.

state. It was part of the Soviet system. That meant a different

:57:46.:57:51.

economy to the type that we have in the United Kingdom and Scotland. In

:57:51.:57:56.

that respect, given that economics is terribly important, it was

:57:56.:58:00.

different. But on the other hand they had to feel their way. There

:58:00.:58:10.
:58:10.:58:11.

are no clear rules and regulations, it is about negotiation.

:58:11.:58:17.

95% of negotiations taking place before Independence Day.

:58:17.:58:23.

Yes. People ask, be negotiate before, or or only after everything

:58:23.:58:31.

is complete? And there was still the glossy sheen so many years

:58:31.:58:37.

after the symbolic independence. -- still negotiations. But I suspect

:58:37.:58:41.

that a symbolic date would be agreed in the case of Scott and yet

:58:41.:58:46.

there would still be much to be discussed. -- in the case of

:58:46.:58:51.

Scotland. But this was a very grown-up way of

:58:51.:58:57.

doing things. Yes, that is why they call it the

:58:57.:59:03.

velvet divorce. At the moment there are all sorts of suggestions that

:59:03.:59:06.

the UK Government would not be willing to operate in negotiations

:59:07.:59:14.

but we can forget all that, it is just part of the campaign. If

:59:14.:59:16.

independence was to be voted for, clearly it would be in the

:59:16.:59:20.

interests of England to negotiate, because it needs to a good

:59:20.:59:27.

neighbour. So there would be rational behaviour.

:59:27.:59:32.

And political parties were packing up the similarities. The SNP said

:59:32.:59:36.

that the Czechs and Slovaks are doing very well economic life.

:59:36.:59:43.

Others said that exports went down. Both sides are keen to find the

:59:44.:59:48.

similarities. Yes, they will pick and choose that

:59:48.:59:53.

and anything else that suits their argument. But clearly it was far

:59:53.:59:58.

less disruptive and took far less time. But over time what is

:59:58.:00:01.

interesting is not that both countries have succeeded but are

:00:01.:00:06.

coming back together and discussing things. At the end of last year

:00:06.:00:10.

there was a joint cabinet meeting they between the two countries. So

:00:10.:00:15.

it is conceivable you can vote for independence yet start to work

:00:15.:00:21.

together closely again. They did not have a referendum. There are

:00:21.:00:27.

perhaps still some regrets about that nowadays.

:00:28.:00:33.

Yes, the evidence is that most people would not have voted for it

:00:33.:00:39.

back then. But that today they are satisfied and there is a sense that

:00:39.:00:45.

it has succeeded. I suspect that if it was put to referendum today, the

:00:45.:00:52.

status quo would be accepted. What will be the SNP policy of

:00:52.:00:57.

negotiating their way back into Europe?

:00:57.:01:01.

Their position is probably a mistake I think. They adopted a

:01:01.:01:05.

position insisting that Scotland would automatically have membership

:01:05.:01:11.

of the E u. I can understand why. They want to the issue of people it

:01:11.:01:17.

will not be disruptive. But I think it might be in the best interests

:01:17.:01:20.

of Scotland to find themselves outside the European Union and then

:01:20.:01:26.

they go seat to join. What we know is that once you become a member,

:01:26.:01:31.

your position is weakened. You may go seating position. We can see

:01:31.:01:36.

this with David Cameron, we conceded back in the 1970s, we have

:01:36.:01:41.

accepted treaties, and now he is saying, we don't like this. That is

:01:41.:01:47.

very difficult. The strongest position to be and as to be outside

:01:47.:01:57.

at the outset, negotiating and. We have lots of bargaining chips.

:01:57.:02:06.

What is the tenor of the debate? It is fairly acrimonious. I think

:02:06.:02:10.

there is a lot more when you wants to the debate that we need to bring

:02:10.:02:16.

out. -- nuance. We have claims and counter-claims and all sides need

:02:16.:02:23.

to move towards more nuance and acceptance. Some of the claims and

:02:23.:02:33.

counter-claims are absorbed. It could be very complex.

:02:33.:02:37.

It will be complex. We're discussing British and Scottish

:02:37.:02:45.

membership if they European Union. But I think it is better to talk in

:02:45.:02:49.

terms of relationships. How do we relate to London government? How do

:02:49.:02:58.

we relate to Brussels? Thank you for joining us. We are

:02:58.:03:08.
:03:08.:03:12.

The Prime Minister says that three British nationals that none to been

:03:12.:03:17.

killed in the Algerian hostage crisis. Algeria says that its

:03:17.:03:21.

special forces ended the stand-off yesterday because Islamist

:03:21.:03:25.

militants were planning to blow up the site.

:03:25.:03:31.

The four bases she is finally over. These pictures are believed to show

:03:31.:03:41.
:03:41.:03:42.

one of the first attempt Spike Algerian forces to end it. These

:03:42.:03:47.

are glimpses of the ordeal suffered by the hostages. The pictures show

:03:47.:03:53.

hostages surrendering before the kidnappers. The responsibility for

:03:53.:03:58.

these deaths lies squarely with the terrorists. I would also say that

:03:58.:04:02.

when you're dealing with a terrorist incident on this scale,

:04:02.:04:08.

it is extremely difficult to respond and to get this right in

:04:08.:04:16.

every respect. The crisis began early on Saturday morning. On

:04:16.:04:21.

Thursday, an initial assault by Algerian forces killed militants

:04:21.:04:27.

and captives of will other hostages managed to escape. With 11 gunmen

:04:27.:04:33.

still holed up, the Algerian army stormed the complex again. The

:04:33.:04:39.

special British consulate team has been sent to the rear to help the

:04:39.:04:45.

survivors and repay create the dead. These pictures shown an Algerian

:04:45.:04:50.

television are said to be part of the Arsenal used by militants and

:04:50.:04:55.

Mrs apparently what one freed hostage sock. Another indication of

:04:55.:05:03.

the horrors of the past few days. Tributes have been paid to four

:05:03.:05:07.

climbers cut by an avalanche in the Scottish Highlands. ACE service was

:05:07.:05:16.

held in their memory any church in Glencore.

:05:16.:05:19.

Around 260 flights are to be cancelled at Heathrow and several

:05:19.:05:23.

Eurostar trains between London, Brussels and Paris are also

:05:23.:05:27.

cancelled. Ice and freezing temperatures are expected along

:05:27.:05:37.
:05:37.:05:39.

with a more snow for next week. It has been snowing heavily on

:05:39.:05:42.

Cambridgeshire for the past hour. Snow and ice are causing problems

:05:43.:05:47.

on and gritted roads and we're expecting significant snowfall here

:05:47.:05:52.

as well as in the south-east, eastern parts, the North Midlands

:05:52.:05:58.

and possibly north-east Wales. The advice for motorists is to check

:05:58.:06:04.

forecasts before travelling and be aware of ACE conditions. You are

:06:04.:06:07.

also advised to check you're transport services are running

:06:07.:06:13.

before leave him home. That's all for now. More news on

:06:13.:06:18.

BBC One at 6 o'clock. Good afternoon. Prayers were said

:06:19.:06:21.

this morning for four climbers who were killed in an avalanche in

:06:21.:06:27.

Glencoe yesterday. A man and a woman survived. The woman suffered

:06:27.:06:31.

serious head injuries and is being treated in hospital in Fort William.

:06:31.:06:40.

From Glencoe, here's our reporter Laura Bicker.

:06:40.:06:44.

This is the south face where the six climbers were making their way

:06:44.:06:49.

down when an avalanche struck. One of them is still seriously ill in

:06:49.:06:56.

hospital, but sadly the bodies of four climbers were recovered by

:06:56.:07:01.

medical rescue teams yesterday. Prayers are being said this

:07:01.:07:05.

lunchtime in the local church for them and their families. It is

:07:05.:07:09.

thought at this stage that a slab of snow simply went from underneath

:07:09.:07:14.

the climbers and we got to know more about what happened and why

:07:14.:07:17.

from the police this afternoon. It's unclear how many people with

:07:17.:07:19.

Scottish connections are among those still missing or unaccounted

:07:19.:07:22.

for after the Algerian hostage crisis. Prime Minister David

:07:22.:07:24.

Cameron this morning confirmed that three British nationals are known

:07:24.:07:28.

to have been killed in the incident. Three more are feared to have died,

:07:28.:07:31.

and a UK resident has also been killed. Scottish families are

:07:31.:07:41.
:07:41.:07:41.

waiting to hear news of loved ones. My only real concern at the moment

:07:41.:07:44.

is there are still families watching this programme desperately

:07:44.:07:49.

waiting for news and the need to note that the British government's

:07:49.:07:53.

officials are working hard to make sure that any information is the

:07:53.:07:56.

lot of them as quickly as possible. A registration scheme for landlords

:07:56.:07:59.

has resulted in 100 applicants being turned down over the past

:07:59.:08:01.

five years, according to figures obtained by the Scottish

:08:01.:08:03.

Conservatives. Landlords have contributed �11 million in fees,

:08:03.:08:06.

while the Scottish Government paid more than �5 million of the start

:08:06.:08:09.

up costs. Ministers say the scheme was designed to provide reassurance

:08:09.:08:13.

to tenants rather than generate criminal prosecutions.

:08:13.:08:17.

Onto the weather now. It will be another cold day, with widespread

:08:17.:08:19.

another cold day, with widespread frosty conditions. Rather cloudy in

:08:19.:08:21.

the east with further wintry showers. Drier and brighter in the

:08:21.:08:25.

west and north with sunny spells, but the odd snow flurry here too.

:08:25.:08:28.

It will be very cold this evening with some clear spells, but these

:08:28.:08:31.

will be mostly in the northwest with eastern parts staying mostly

:08:31.:08:41.
:08:41.:08:44.

That's all for now, I'll hand you back to Andrew.

:08:44.:08:48.

We heard about Glencore in the news. We can cross now to Aberdeen where

:08:48.:08:55.

the First Minister joins us. First of all, your reaction to the

:08:55.:09:04.

tragic news? It is an appalling and tragic day. Four people lost their

:09:04.:09:09.

lives and a lady is being treated in hospital. She has been

:09:09.:09:12.

transferred to the Southern General and hospital where she is

:09:12.:09:17.

critically ill. It is the very serious is the that in tragic

:09:17.:09:21.

circumstances. Our thoughts go out to the relatives who have lost

:09:22.:09:28.

their lives. It is the time of year when incidents occur. Are we doing

:09:28.:09:33.

enough to warn people about what can happen? The Scottish mountains

:09:33.:09:39.

are breathtakingly beautiful but clearly a very dangerous place.

:09:39.:09:45.

That is known and understood. We have made huge advances and

:09:45.:09:49.

climbers and made in years are by and large much better prepared and

:09:49.:09:54.

warned and equipped than before, but none the less, the Scottish

:09:54.:10:02.

mountains in January it are not, and it was not the most difficult

:10:02.:10:08.

conditions yesterday, but they are inherently dangerous places. Not

:10:08.:10:12.

all fatalities on Scottish mountains are accidents are

:10:12.:10:20.

incidents but none the less they are a dangerous place. It is the

:10:20.:10:23.

sport and the recreation that gives untold pleasure to tens of

:10:23.:10:28.

thousands of people, and the general story is that despite the

:10:28.:10:31.

fact there are many more people going out walking in the Scottish

:10:31.:10:35.

hills, because people were better prepared and more aware, the

:10:35.:10:41.

general trend of accidents has been downwards over the last 20 years.

:10:41.:10:47.

Every fatality is the tragedy and a very incident is deeply regret it.

:10:47.:10:52.

If we turn our attention now to another tragic incident in Algeria.

:10:52.:10:58.

Just to get some clarity. We heard that a number of Scottish residents

:10:58.:11:04.

were held hostage and are now safe and well. Last night, the Scottish

:11:04.:11:08.

government expressed concerns that Scots or people with Scottish

:11:08.:11:12.

connections are believed to be among the dead or missing. D you

:11:12.:11:18.

have any updates? The position is that two Scots, not necessarily a

:11:18.:11:27.

resident but never the less Gotts, are believed to have been killed. -

:11:27.:11:34.

- Scots. Police are now just onside in Algeria or an formal

:11:34.:11:38.

identification has not been made but families were informed of the

:11:38.:11:43.

maximum amount of information yesterday. Two Scottish family's

:11:43.:11:46.

have been informed that their loved ones are believed to have been

:11:46.:11:52.

killed. It Scots have returned from Algeria or under either with their

:11:52.:12:00.

families or en route. If they're not with their families already,

:12:00.:12:04.

the very soon will be. Eight families will be celebrating the

:12:04.:12:07.

return of their loved ones but two Scots are believed to have been

:12:07.:12:13.

killed. It is the developing situation and has been called the

:12:13.:12:17.

new front in the war against terror. Would you be happy with the UK

:12:18.:12:26.

tried to take part and helped with that? Obviously there has to be a

:12:26.:12:29.

priority in this area that perhaps in the recent past has not been

:12:29.:12:36.

given. The North African desk was recently demoted and the Foreign

:12:36.:12:40.

Office but there is a realisation that Mrs Annie area we should be

:12:40.:12:45.

given much more priority. In terms of assistance and and terms of the

:12:45.:12:53.

safety of UK nationals, of course, all assistance should be given. If

:12:53.:12:57.

you're asking my opinion on an armed intervention in North Africa,

:12:57.:13:02.

I do not think it is being sought in Algeria and as you know, my

:13:02.:13:06.

views on these matters is you need to be extraordinarily cautious

:13:06.:13:10.

before you start talking about committing soldiers on the ground.

:13:10.:13:17.

I do not think anyone is Seriously talking about that at the moment.

:13:17.:13:20.

There is the major difference between seeing and the up as a

:13:20.:13:26.

priority and not allowing it to disappear from the radar on

:13:26.:13:32.

security grounds, and with putting troops into I'll GDR. Scottish

:13:32.:13:37.

workers at real risk here, many from your constituency. Can we do

:13:37.:13:40.

more to help protect Scots who going abroad and are living in

:13:40.:13:46.

these areas? Apart from the general co-operation in terms of security

:13:46.:13:54.

and in terms of the oil companies who are well versed in this. I have

:13:54.:14:04.
:14:04.:14:04.

been to a number of situations. Apart from taking these precautions,

:14:04.:14:10.

for people and the oil industry, the understand that many oil

:14:10.:14:15.

provinces have been unstable and dangerous places. That does not

:14:15.:14:20.

mean you can neglect or be in any sense accepting of the risks people

:14:20.:14:28.

take, but these risks are well known. The service companies are

:14:28.:14:33.

aware of them. The maximum effort must be made to make security a

:14:33.:14:40.

lair. In policy terms, what is clear from the tragedy and the it

:14:40.:14:48.

rage of the last week is that any thought that North Africa or

:14:48.:14:51.

Algeria is less of a potentially difficult and dangerous place

:14:51.:14:56.

should be removed entirely. It should certainly be a foreign

:14:56.:14:59.

policy priority and they would have thought that is pretty obvious from

:14:59.:15:07.

the recent tragic a bits. -- events. Why are girls from deprived areas

:15:07.:15:10.

of the country more likely to become teenage mums than those who

:15:10.:15:13.

are better off? It's an issue being examined by a Health Committee at

:15:13.:15:15.

Holyrood next month. They're calling for evidence on why

:15:16.:15:18.

Scotland continues to have one of the highest levels of teen

:15:18.:15:21.

pregnancy in Western Europe and whether we are doing enough to

:15:21.:15:31.
:15:31.:15:33.

bring about real and lasting change. Hayley Jarvis reports.

:15:33.:15:36.

Katharine Mackie was 16 and living in Commander up when she fell

:15:36.:15:41.

pregnant. When I first found out I was pregnant it was a big shock to

:15:41.:15:48.

me. I really thought this was my life over. She is now 21 and has

:15:48.:15:51.

the second daughter with her partner. Although she has no

:15:52.:15:57.

regrets about having children at the young age, she feels not many

:15:57.:16:03.

opportunities were open to have at that time. No employers were taking

:16:03.:16:07.

me. I felt like I was getting nowhere. I was trying and getting

:16:07.:16:14.

nothing. All I did was be at home and looked after her. What am I

:16:14.:16:21.

going to do? While numbers have fallen in each of the past four

:16:21.:16:25.

years, Scotland still has one of the highest rates of teenage

:16:25.:16:29.

pregnancy in western Europe but figures vary greatly across the

:16:29.:16:34.

country with figures showing women under 20 are living in poor areas

:16:34.:16:38.

are 10 times more likely to have a child and twice as likely to have

:16:38.:16:42.

an abortion than those who are better off. Why is there such a

:16:42.:16:48.

link between poor Bertie and teenage pregnancy? It depends on

:16:48.:16:53.

the options available to you. If you are looking at forfeiting ad to

:16:53.:16:59.

be on a future career, that is going to influence your choices. If

:16:59.:17:06.

what you see is an employment and a paucity of opportunity, this baby

:17:06.:17:10.

means you have a role once you can become a mother and fit into the

:17:10.:17:14.

community in which you live and be respected, that might be influenced

:17:14.:17:20.

that choice. NHS Scotland are trying to reduce the number of

:17:20.:17:25.

unplanned pregnancies through sex education and access to

:17:25.:17:29.

contraception but see in deprived areas there are other issues.

:17:29.:17:34.

of it is to do with aspiration and lifelong ambition. What are you

:17:34.:17:39.

looking for a few do not have a job? It is about how people develop

:17:39.:17:43.

relationships because we know some people are looking at developing a

:17:43.:17:46.

bond with something they laugh because they did not necessarily

:17:46.:17:51.

have that with their family. Study in Dundee which has the

:17:51.:17:55.

highest rate of teenage pregnancy in the country found that a lack of

:17:55.:17:59.

confidence could also be a reason. If people come from difficult

:17:59.:18:05.

backgrounds, a lot needs to be done to make sure they have those skills

:18:05.:18:11.

to mean they can say no. Up teenage pregnancy can have a long lasting

:18:11.:18:14.

impact but Katharine who is now getting advice from the centre in

:18:15.:18:21.

Glasgow, says it can be a positive thing. I was very young but some

:18:21.:18:24.

people want that in their life and if they think they can handle it

:18:24.:18:32.

and have that support, just to have that in your life. MSPs will begin

:18:32.:18:36.

taking evidence next week on how to reduce pregnancies and to support

:18:36.:18:46.
:18:46.:18:48.

those who find themselves parents I am joined by the chief executive

:18:48.:18:53.

of the charity, Children First, and a director of the Royal College of

:18:53.:19:01.

midwives in Scotland. We have got some of the worst rates in western

:19:01.:19:09.

Europe. Are you trying to identify some underlying causes?

:19:09.:19:14.

It is complex. You have a batten young people at different issues.

:19:14.:19:22.

There are those who are into binge drinking and substance abuse. We

:19:22.:19:27.

often hear from young people who do not realise they are not in a fit

:19:27.:19:32.

state. That is one group. Then there is another group, who are

:19:32.:19:39.

possibly ambivalent or even want to have children, for all these

:19:39.:19:44.

reasons mentioned, perhaps not seen a role for themselves, not having a

:19:45.:19:50.

career to look for two, so having a baby is a way of saying, I am a

:19:50.:19:55.

mother now, I have some body. But there are also lots of things about

:19:56.:20:00.

young people who find it difficult to negotiate relationships, talk

:20:00.:20:05.

about sex, about competence -- about contraception. It is not

:20:05.:20:11.

enough for us to just say, this is a condom, this is how you use it.

:20:11.:20:15.

It is about negotiating relationships. Are very complex

:20:15.:20:20.

area. And there is an emotional

:20:20.:20:26.

fulfilment that some youngsters might be looking for.

:20:26.:20:34.

Undoubtedly. We must not judge. Not all young teenage mothers are a bad

:20:34.:20:38.

mothers. We have to get that right. Lots of them are good mothers who

:20:38.:20:46.

just need support. We have to look and ask, how can we help and

:20:46.:20:55.

support these young people? There has been some work done by the

:20:55.:21:00.

family and a spark a ship, looking at that. It is a very good in the

:21:00.:21:08.

City. -- the family - nerves partnership. - a very good

:21:08.:21:18.
:21:18.:21:25.

development. They do not realise that this is a 24 hour commitment.

:21:25.:21:29.

And the role of young fathers? Contrary to the stereotype many

:21:29.:21:36.

want to get involved but do not know how to.

:21:36.:21:41.

Absolutely. We were involved in research talking to young fathers.

:21:41.:21:47.

Many of them wanted to have a role in their child's life. Not

:21:47.:21:51.

necessarily marriage and happy ever after, but they wanted some role,

:21:51.:21:57.

some level of responsibility. Yet they felt they were often sidelined.

:21:57.:22:03.

It comes back to the whole thing about relationships. How do we

:22:03.:22:07.

maximise people's involvement in relationships? Make sure that it

:22:07.:22:14.

works? I'll be it they might not be living together.

:22:14.:22:24.
:22:24.:22:27.

You mentioned the family - nurse partnership.

:22:27.:22:32.

That has been completely funded by the Scottish Government. All the

:22:32.:22:37.

parties have an interest but this administration have really driven

:22:37.:22:46.

the partnership. In Lothian we had the pilot. We absolutely involved

:22:46.:22:52.

the young fathers. It is not about providing clinical careful stock

:22:52.:22:59.

that is done by a midwife. This is about supporting parenting. --

:22:59.:23:09.
:23:09.:23:14.

clinical care. It will be rolled out elsewhere. We will see success,

:23:14.:23:19.

although it is for a certain group of young ladies who are under 19

:23:19.:23:29.

years of age. What is the key thing in reducing teenage pregnancies?

:23:29.:23:34.

Making sure that what is talked about his health the relationship

:23:34.:23:38.

young people are also not convinced about confidentiality and are

:23:38.:23:41.

worried that any one they talk to will immediately talk to their

:23:42.:23:49.

mothers. And the need to understand about, -- contraception. As a

:23:49.:23:53.

country we have a long way to go when it comes to been honest and

:23:53.:23:57.

talking about sex. How can we expect young people to deal with it

:23:57.:24:02.

when they look at older people who are still embarrassed? Smaller

:24:02.:24:10.

groups, not great big classes. That involves resources. And resources

:24:10.:24:17.

are patchy across Scotland. We need to roll them out more consistently.

:24:17.:24:21.

We will soon discuss the events of next week but let's look back at

:24:21.:24:31.
:24:31.:24:35.

Both the House of Commons and the House of Lords approved a section

:24:35.:24:39.

30 order. Legal powers will pass to Holyrood to hold the independence

:24:39.:24:45.

referendum. The Labour leader of Glasgow City

:24:45.:24:48.

Council made a public apology after police reported him to the

:24:48.:24:53.

Procurator Fiscal for an alleged indecency with another man. He

:24:53.:24:59.

remains in post. A call has gone out for 1,500

:24:59.:25:05.

volunteers to help out at the Glasgow Commonwealth Games.

:25:05.:25:08.

And Gordon Strachan is settling into life as the new Scotland

:25:08.:25:18.
:25:18.:25:22.

football manager. I am very proud. My family are proud. My wife, my

:25:22.:25:29.

mother, my grand children, children, friends.

:25:29.:25:39.
:25:39.:25:46.

And it snowed! I am joined by a trio of political

:25:46.:25:56.

pundits. The Scottish Correspondent from the Guardian, the Spectator,

:25:56.:26:05.

and in Dundee, the Scottish political editor of the Sun. We had

:26:05.:26:09.

a European discussion at the top of the programme. What did you make of

:26:09.:26:15.

the discussion between Nigel Farage and Alyn Smith?

:26:15.:26:20.

Nigel Farage is a good walk on Act but Alyn Smith was much closer to

:26:20.:26:27.

where the debate will be. The UK Independence Party poll only in the

:26:28.:26:31.

tens of thousands at their best. So their position will not have

:26:32.:26:37.

popular support of attraction here. Smith was right, this is more a

:26:37.:26:44.

question of relationships within the European Union. I mentioned the

:26:44.:26:51.

article in the Herald by the Deputy First Minister, quoting Nick Clegg.

:26:51.:26:56.

Talking about the chilling effect that a European exit could mean.

:26:56.:27:01.

Nigel Farage not getting much attraction here.

:27:01.:27:07.

That is certainly the case. Nick Clegg and the nationalists making

:27:07.:27:11.

the same argument. But it is the same argument by Unionists make

:27:11.:27:17.

about Scott and leading the United Kingdom, so a certain irony. --

:27:17.:27:25.

Scotland. There is an assumption that Scotland is a better, more

:27:25.:27:34.

progressive place than to the south. In actual fact, Euro-sceptics are

:27:34.:27:39.

quite widespread in Scotland. But there is a difference in terms of

:27:39.:27:45.

the intensity, compared with parts of the south-east of England. But

:27:45.:27:49.

the European Union is not particularly popular in Scotland,

:27:49.:27:54.

it is just not afforded the same importance in the overall political

:27:54.:28:00.

landscape as it is in the south of England.

:28:00.:28:07.

Do you think there's any Euro- scepticism in Scotland?

:28:07.:28:15.

We heard already by looking at the question, if you wear and already

:28:15.:28:22.

in the union, would you join it now? -- if you were not already.

:28:22.:28:27.

There was a great star mash about the question of legal advice, are

:28:27.:28:34.

we in or out of Europe? Well perhaps we will be out of Europe

:28:35.:28:39.

anyway even if we stayed in the UK. That will all come and to the

:28:39.:28:49.
:28:49.:28:52.

independence referendum brew. I think one mistake that has been

:28:53.:29:01.

made, strategically, the SNP has either by accident or design

:29:01.:29:04.

allowed their policy to be conflated with what independence

:29:04.:29:11.

might mean for Scotland. Lots of these decisions are matters for the

:29:11.:29:16.

Scottish people if and when we become independent.

:29:16.:29:21.

I want to look at another story in the Scotland on Sunday. An

:29:21.:29:25.

exclusive about and you report, a new blueprint for extending

:29:25.:29:35.

devolution. -- a new report. What do you make of this?

:29:35.:29:41.

This is familiar territory. An organisation already put forward

:29:41.:29:46.

something similar. But this is very much aware of the counter argument

:29:46.:29:50.

to independence will be fully formed. Labour will come quite

:29:51.:29:54.

close to this proposition, the Liberal Democrats are already

:29:54.:30:01.

beyond it. So it is shaping up into a proper debate about the Scottish

:30:01.:30:05.

future, greater revolution or and Alex Salmond version of

:30:05.:30:09.

independence within the European Union.

:30:09.:30:13.

And there is no offer from the pro- union parties as to what might

:30:13.:30:22.

happen in a post referendum Scotland following a yes vote?

:30:22.:30:28.

I take the view, what has taken you so long? I remember writing

:30:28.:30:33.

editorials for the Scotland on Sunday more than a decade ago

:30:33.:30:40.

arguing for extract evolution. It is based on a fundamental right and

:30:40.:30:44.

principle. A parliament with the power to spend but not tax is

:30:44.:30:48.

fundamentally irresponsible and cannot be expected to have the

:30:48.:30:53.

incentives to govern effectively and sensibly. So this is part of a

:30:53.:31:00.

process. The new Scotland Bill will introduce taxation powers of a

:31:00.:31:03.

level that far exceed what has previously been available at

:31:03.:31:10.

Holyrood. Lots of the chattering classes have yet to come to terms

:31:10.:31:20.

with the opportunities. It is a work in progress.

:31:20.:31:28.

Well the other pro-union parties get behind us? The Tories?

:31:28.:31:35.

I have my doubts! I remember Alex Douglas-Home telling us that if we

:31:35.:31:40.

all voted No in the last referendum a better policy would come along in

:31:40.:31:48.

a minute. That did not happen. These parties are saying that they

:31:48.:31:52.

are open to extra day evolution but only after we both know to

:31:52.:31:56.

independence. If they were serious they could bring forward a Bill on

:31:56.:32:04.

Westminster so that we know the alternative to voting no.

:32:04.:32:09.

This is the direction of travel across the whole of the United

:32:09.:32:13.

Kingdom. Wheels are talking about it. Northern Ireland are talking

:32:13.:32:19.

Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser.


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