27/01/2013 Sunday Politics Scotland


Andrew Neil and Andrew Kerr with the latest political news and interviews with the Europe Minister David Lidington and the Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Rachel Reeves.

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Good afternoon. Welcome to the programme. The coalition presides


over the weakest recovery for generations. Labour's lead God the


Prime Minister wants to negotiate a Is the plan achievable? Would we be


better or worse off outside the EU? The two sides go head-to-head.


In Scotland: As the Europe debate picks up speed, the Deputy First


Minister rights to all the EU Foreign Ministers to set out the


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2166 seconds


Next time round, they are far more likely to be talking in the same


line as the UK. Britain has assimilated more than 3,000 EU


directives and regulations every year. How many have been repealed?


Give me an example of something having been returned. I accept


there is a lot of body of legislation. So the answer is


nothing? I do not know. I am dealing with financial services.


knew against repatriation of power? I am not against it, but if EU


choose not to have something in a given area, it is repatriated for


everyone. If we talk about it in those terms we stand much more


chance than if we want to grab it back and never mind what happens to


other people's. If repatriation is not substantial,


you will campaign to leave in the referendum? Yes. Do you think you


will carry the bulk of the Tory party with you on that view?


think so. That is the current opinion-poll evidence of the


members of the MPs, but I do not think that is the key question. It


is not whether the key Tory party votes to accept this. The 14 years


in the Tory party tells me anything, if people are wiser than their


leaders, the problem we have left is leaving it to ministers. I


believe my trust in the British Welcome to the programme. The rally


sets off, destination Monte Carlo, but the big political question is,


are the accelerating towards the Continent or reversing from it?


Who is in the navigation seat? Depression and anxiety are


illnesses that can affect everyone. One in four Scots are impacted with


mental health issues. Are there enough services to support this


condition? Thank you for joining us. Nicola


Sturgeon has written to EU foreign ministers to assure them of


Scotland's commitment to the European Union, putting distance


between Holyrood and Westminster's position on Brussels. But it is the


Scottish voters who will be in the driving seat.


These old cars are being driven from Glasgow across Europe this


weekend, to compete in the Monte Carlo Rally. As they drive from


country to country, Scotland's future relationship with the


European Union will probably not be uppermost in the minds of their


drivers. It was not preoccupying those who turned out to see them


more. It does not keep me awake at night. We are better in than out.


wonder where we are going on Scotland.


What is less clear is who voters' trust most to look after Scotland's


best interests in Europe. Is it Alex Salmond, who wants you to vote


for independence, and then let him negotiate with the European Union


for Scotland to continue to participate but as a full member


state? Or was it David Cameron, who thinks he can cut a better deal for


Britain in the European Union and will then give they say on whether


Too many fellow Scots whose values we share simply do not trust her


motives. When it comes to general elections, they see us as London's


Party in Scotland, not Scotland representatives in London. When it


comes to elections in the Scottish parliament, they want to vote for a


party that will put Scotland first. Too few truly believe that boss. I


want to see us as the party off we can and we will. If voters do not


trust the party generally, made that also applied to the


referendum? -- apply to the referendum about the European


Union? People have to have their say. In terms of the Scottish


Conservatives, we are fully involved in the Better Together


Campaign, and we want people to have a say.


David Cameron's promise about to vote on the EU is designed to


appease the Euro-sceptics on his backbenches and to appeal to Tory


voters who have drifted away to the UK Independence Party. That wants


us to leave the EU. In Scotland, the promise of another referendum


quickly change the dynamic of the independence debate. Alex Salmond


and David Cameron are like peas in a pod. There will always put their


party's interest before the interests of the people of the


country. It does not come from this Parliament, this Government or the


people from Scotland, it comes from the banks of the Thames, and a Tory


coalition dull Dutch government are heading towards the exit door, and


a Labour opposition has still have to clarify what they think about it.


The Deputy First Minister took this message to Dublin, where she told a


business confident -- conference that a EU referendum would create


uncertainty. An Irish government minister suggested Scottish


independence might create uncertainty about Scotland's place


in the EU. It Scotland became independent, they would have to


apply for membership, which can be a lengthy process.


On the road to the independence referendum, there will be many


voices from a -- across Europe. In the end it is the Scottish voters


in the driving seat, and their choices at the ballot box that will


determine the Dow -- direction Scotland will head.


Joining me is the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and external affairs,


the SNP's Fiona Hyslop. We are hearing that Nicola Sturgeon is


writing to European foreign ministers today to brandish her


pro-European credentials, compared to the Prime Minister. Is the


supply for help, after the snub from the European Commission for


talks, and the UK -- UK government said they would not take part in


discussions. No, it is clear we need to make sure that European


capitals know that the Scottish government's position is we are


pure -- pro European. We remain in continuous discussions and part of


the European Union. I am pleased the Irish Minister has confirmed


that she also sees a continuing membership for Scotland, and the


negotiations that would take place would take place between 2014 and


2016, in a way that she thinks is logical under way forward. It is


distinct from David Cameron, who wants to head out of Europe or


threatened to head out. That is not good for Scotland, and if we want


jobs and services predicted, -- protected, there is a clear


distinction that the unfortunate position as those who are against


independence would prefer to gamble on a Tory future. Where did she say


in the e-mail to Nicola Sturgeon that Scotland would not have to


apply for membership? She twice said that to the BBC in the clip


that it does not. It is unfortunate that the BBC has misconstrued her


position, and it is helpful that she has recognised the importance


that Scotland would have across Europe. The the fact we're lying on


-- relying on a Conservative government to allow them to


continue to decide for Scotland, I do not think that is acceptable. I


think Europe wants to see collective reform, and the idea of


unilateral reform put forward by David Cameron is not acceptable.


When the Crighton said that Scotland would have to apply for


membership, and we have that full club so you can hear it.


In Scotland we are dominated by the constitutional debate. One of the


issues is, with an independent Scotland be welcome by his EU


neighbours? Welcome, by all means, but there are legal constraints. It


Scotland were to become independent, they would have to apply for


membership, which can be a lengthy process. Even with the very


advanced and well-integrated countries like Iceland, it still


has a task in terms of transforming his regulation and fitting end to


the European requirements, and that would be the case for Scotland as


well, I think. There would be an application and negotiation process


as it is for any country. Would that be fairly smooth or difficult?


I do not know. It is unprecedented. It hasn't happened before. I do not


see why it would be a terribly complex process, but negotiations


for membership are all was painstaking, and complex, but I do


not see why it would be difficult. I think it would lead to the


accession at the end of the process, but it would take time. It is very


much up to the people of Scotland to what they choose to do. So she


said Scotland would have to apply for membership, do you agree with


what she is saying? I agree with the mill where she says there is no


situation where Scotland would leave the European Union, which is


also the point she makes about Scotland's position being unique.


And this means the position of Scotland would have to be developed


in terms of the terms and conditions required, but also the


Irish minister in her e-mail said she recognises the period of the


"yes" vote in 2014, and a period where these terms and conditions in


relation to membership, and the technical details would take until


2016. We have a member -- been a member for many years, so we are


quite distinct, but the difference is her vision is for corporation


with her European partners. -- our vision for corporation.


She says Scotland would have to apply, but Nicola Sturgeon says


that is not the case, but there is no political difference between


Ireland and Scotland. There is the period between a "yes" vote and


independence, when the terms in relation to a membership and


compliance would be decided, I have every confidence we would be


welcomed. The Irish Minister has said that. Many ministers I meet


you also say that. The biggest risk to Scotland and its future is


relying on a Conservative government, and that is where the


Labour Party is. We have to give the people of Scotland the decision


and leadership. How important is the European debate in Scotland for


the "yes" campaign? It is important in relation to the economy, the


environment, and in terms of workers' rights, we are already


seeing the Conservative government wanting to undermine using the


welfare system, those in low-paid work, relying on benefits. Then


there is an attack on employment protection that David Cameron wants


to see, these are relevant. These are not abstract issues, they


affect people a free day. The future of energy policy, a Scot and


has a great deal to contribute, I think was a very important economic


issue, not just political. Thank you very much.


In the under studio is the former Labour Chancellor of the Exchequer


and leader of the pro-union together is Better campaign,


Alistair Darling. -- Better Together Campaign. Do you agree


with Ed Miliband's position on the EU in/out referendum? If you look


at the position David Cameron set out last week, it was driven by the


needs of the Conservative Party, internally and the threat of UKIP.


It was not a position he worked out of a matter of principle. As far as


Scotland is concerned,... Can I interrupt you, I want to ask about


which position you are talking about that Mr Miliband takes. Isn't


it one that he does not want a referendum -- is it one that he


wants a referendum, or does he not need a referendum if powers are


going back to Brussels? I do not speak for the Labour Party any more,


but I have nothing to fear of referendums. If you are going to


There is a lot of uncertainty. We will not have this referendum for a


few years. I said before, I thought a two year delay for the referendum


will create uncertainty, and the four years uncertainty aggravates


the position regarding the EU fault. The sound went down while Fiona was


speaking, but in relation to Scotland and Europe, Nicola


Sturgeon wrote a letter to other European governments in which she


set out the virtues of the European Union, the fact we are closer trade


and co-operation, and I agree with most of that. However, if it is


right for Europe because it is a big single market, it must be right


in bucketloads so far as the rest of the UK is concerned, we sell


four times as much to England as we do to Europe. The logic must be


that Scottish is better and stronger together in the United


Kingdom, as I believe the United Kingdom is better and stronger


together as part of the European What do your think your position


would be, particularly if the UK has to renegotiate substantially


with Brussels if there is a closer fiscal union? I don't speak to the


Labour Party. I am not drawing up the manifesto for 2015 or any other


time. My view is this; by 2015, just under two years' time, it will


be clearer what the position is, with regards to the eurozone and


whether or not that means the fundamental treaties need to be


looked at again. If the UK is going to seek a better deal or the


repatriation of powers, you is to understand, so will other countries


want to do the same thing. The other thing is you have to build


alliances with the non-Euro- countries. Holding a gun to


people's heads does not make sense. Looking at better together new you


are split over a key issue when you are meant to be campaigning


together. We are not. Our campaign was set up to convince people that


Scotland is better and stronger together within the United Kingdom.


Nothing has changed as a result of last week. We are all agreed that


Scotland would have to renegotiate terms within Europe. You just heard


the Irish minister say that at some length, so has everyone else.


There's going to be uncertainty there. I have never argued that the


rest of Europe would not want us in, but the terms and conditions,


whether on the euro, the passport controls - there would have to be a


negotiation. Now nothing that David Cameron said last week has changed


that one jot and the nationalists are in that position. This is only


a year ago they were arguing they had a legal opinion which said the


opposite. It turned out to be a complete fiction. Their credibility


on that is pretty near nil. Yes, Europe is important. If they are


right about staying in Europe, they must be right about staying in the


single market we are already in, which is called the United Kingdom.


I want to ask you about the economy, as a former Chancellor. In your


opinion, are we approaching a triple dip recession? There is now


a risk that will happen. The economy was growing in 2010, and


this Government killed that off and they did it by trashing people's


confidence with comparisons about what is going on in Europe. They


embarked on a policy of austerity. The policy has failed. It's not


going anywhere. We will pay a very, very heavy price for it. It is time


they started thinking closely about what they are doing. If we carry on


like this we could have a lost generation, as we had in Japan,


where people will be denied opportunities and have lower


standards of living. That is intolerable.


Thank you very much for joining us. Turning to coalition partners at


Westminster, we have Rory Stewart t Conservative MP for Penrith and the


Borders, who sits in the Foreign Affairs Select Committee. In our


Aberdeen studio is Sir Malcolm Bruce, the former leader of the


Scottish Liberal Democrats. Good afternoon to you both. First to you,


Rory Stewart, we are hearing about the EU, in-out referendum there.


Where do you stand on it? Like David Cameron I believe the current


situation is not acceptable. We have to push for a new relationship


with Europe. Otherwise Britain will be in an isolated Uncomfortable


situation. If we cannot get that, I believe we should vote to leave. It


is not up to me. It is not up to David Cameron. It is up to the


British people. Sir Malcolm, you are listening to that. How on earth


can you remain in this coalition when it is so divided over such a


key point? Nick Clegg was saying this referendum is not in the


national interest. How can you remain in the coalition?


Conservative Party are talking about what they would do if they


were to win the next election, which they are increasingly unable


to do. There'll be nothing more isolating for Britain than to be


outside the United Kingdom, outside the European Union. I am a former


reformer of the European Union. There is a lot we should and can do.


The idea of demanding it and then if we don't get it leaving, puts us


in a weaker position than we would otherwise be. I think the problem


for David Cameron is that he's really addressing his own party


rather than the interests of the country. It's not consistent, in my


view, to be passionately in favour of keeping the United Kingdom


together and arguing that Scotland should stay in the United Kingdom,


whilst arguing that Britain should leave the European Union. The


argument is the same in both cases. Rory Stewart, from your Lib Dem


colleague there, putting party interests there. He is a


distinguished man drawing the comparison. The United Kingdom is a


country with strong historical connections between what was


originally the kingdom of Scotland and England. The European Union is


not a country. It is a block with any number of different languages


and cultures within it. It is daft to say the United Kingdom is the


same as the European Union and the issues which affect one are the


same as those which affect the other. If you pick up on that point.


We have a single market in the United Kingdom. We have a single


market in the European Union, which abgtkhully Britain did much to help


to -- actually Britain did much to help to shape. Just as I argue it


is the UK and Scotland's interest to stay together because they have


so much in common and a common open market, what we have developed in


Europe is a similar open market and one that Britain needs to be part


of. There is a real dainger in the -- dainger in the course that the


Prime Minister has set, he has indicated that, but then found his


party does not support him and possibly the country does not


support him, without a clear indication of where we finish up if


we are outside Europe. There is no other organisation we can usefully


join. We are just left on the margins. We are talking there also


with Alistair Darling there and the Better Together Campaign. What the


Prime Minister is proposing has blown together - the campaign, on


two issues, causing uncertainty and criticising nationalists for


waiting a long time for this referendum. This one will not come


until 2017. I believe you will see the Labour Party position move


quickly. You can see it moving already. It is difficult. We found


the same in Scotland and we will with the European Union. It is


difficult to fight against a referendum N the end this is about


the people. It is about what kind of country you want to live in and


giving people a choice over their sovereignty. Alistair Darling will


find himself isolated within the Labour Party, increasingly. It is


difficult to say people should not be given a say. Nick Clegg wanted a


referendum before the 2010 referendum, but now he does not


want one and the treaty will be renegotiated. Probably we do need a


referendum. Thafrpblgt is why we have introduce -- That is why we


have introduced that for the circumstances for a referendum. If


there is a transfer of power there should be a referendum F there is a


referendum we will campaign and campaign for Britain to stay in. I


have to say, if you look at it from the European perspective, they've


had this declaration from David Cameron and they have had e-mails...


Sorry, we have to leave it there. We are running out of time at the


moment. Thank you very much for joining me.


We are coming up to the news now. Here on Sunday Politics Scotland we


will talk about mental illness after the latest update from the


In a moment we will look ahead to the big stories. A fire in a


nightclub in Brazil has claimed 245 lives. It is thought the blaze


broke out in the packed club in the Santa Maria. The fire, officials


say, spread within seconds. The result of a stage show gone wrong.


Dozens of youngster rushed to escape. The first started, as we


know, from some sort of firework display, even before the


firefighters were there, people were helping, trying to make holes


in the wall of this nightclub to help people get out. Santa Maria


has a large student population. It is thought a party with 500 people


was being held last night. The scale of this disaster has left


Brazil stunned. Investigations are underway to discover the exact


cause of the fire and how come so many came to die.


The Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, says a referendum on member


of the European Union is not in the national interest. Mr Clegg says


David Cameron is risking growth and jobs by tying the country in knots


in what he calls an arcane debate about the terms of Britain's


membership. My priority will always remain a simple objective of


building a stronger economy in a fairer society. That job is made


more difficult if you have years and years tying yourself up in


knots. Having debates about the terms of the membership of the


United Kingdom before we get to a referendum. Tens of thousands of


people are attending the funerals of 29 people killed in violence in


Egypt yesterday, following a verdict in the football riots case.


Clashes broke out between some mourners and the security forces.


Yesterday's violence started after 21 people were sentenced to death


for their part in rioting last year. French-led forces in Mali are


closing in on Timbuktu. Malian and French forces seized


another city in the north of the country yesterday.


Andy Murray has failed to win his second Grand Slam tit until a row,


losing to Novak Djokovic -- Grand Slam title in a row, lose -- losing


to Novak Djokovic. Murray struggled with a hamstring injury and


blistered feet. That is all the news now. More here on BBC One at


6pm. Good afternoon. As you have just


seen, disappointment for Andy Murray in Melbourne N a gruelling


match lasting three hours and 40 minutes Novak Djokovic powered his


way to win 3-1. Murray thanked his team and praised his opponent.


would like to thank Djokovic. His record here is incredible. Very few


people have managed to to what he's done here. She a very well-deserved


champion. Well done again. Scotland star Leigh Griffiths is


reported to have been arrested on suspicion of shoplifting.


He was detained in an Edinburgh store yesterday. He said it was a


big misunderstanding. An aid worker murdered in Pakistan last year is


the winner of the Robert Burns Humanitarian Award.


Khalil Dale, a former Dumfries nurse spent 30 years with the


British Red Cross, helping vulnerable people in some of the


most dangerous places in the world. A year ago he was abducted in


Pakistan. His body was found three months later. Now the weather


forecast. Good afternoon to you. We are in


for a mixed afternoon as far as the for a mixed afternoon as far as the


weather is concerned. We will continue to see blustery showers


piling into western parts of the country, falling as snow on the


hills. We should see some brighter interludes. Further east it remains


largely dry with decent spells of brightness and sunshine. A fresh


south-westerly wind for many parts of the country this afternoon. Gale


force for the Western Isles at time and feeling milder than of late.


That is all for now. Back to you. Thank you very much. MSPs were told


this week that mental illness is one of the top public health


one of the top public health challenges in Europe.


The strategy started last year. One charity estimates the social and


economic costs of mental illness are �11 million per year. One in


four people in Scotland will experience a mental health problem


every year. That can range from excessive stress, anxiety and


depression, to schizophrenia and bipolar disorders. Although numbers


have decreased over the past decade n2011, 772 people died by suicide


in Scotland. That is around two people per day. 10% of 5-15-year-


olds suffer mental health problems when they are growing up. As Linda


Fabiani pointed out during the debate, mental health illness has a


big impact on someone's self-esteem. When you look at stigma and what


goes along with it - the bullying, the humiliation - whether it's


depression, bipolar, schizophrenia, whatever, whether it is a one-off,


period oddic, these are the effects, marginallisation, that does


terrible things to people. With me in the studio is Billy Watson t --


This is a huge issue in Scotland, and we do have a good legislator


unsocial policy legacy in Scotland. The 2000 and the Mental Health Act


is admired internationally. We now have a new Scottish strategy for


mental health. We are at a moment in time where we can move forward


on the issue, and I think the challenge for the Scottish


government is to take this policy and strategy and translated and


transact it into real meaningful services on the ground. --


translator it. By December 2014, there is a target to wait no more


than 18 weeks for treatment. What is the situation at the moment?


is not great. It's still concerns organisations like ours that it has


taken this sort of time to get a guaranteed to access to what is a


vital treatment. We have had it and physical health for a long time,


and it is two years away. But still feels like we have ground to make


up. Audit Scotland did a report that showed support for


psychological therapies depending on where you are in Scotland can


take several years. We will be interested to see how the Scottish


government gets from here to there in two years. The suicide


statistics a minute ago were frightening. What more can be done


at a community level to try to tackle it? The Community point was


vital. Scotland has done some great work, suicide rates have come down.


But two people a day is two too many. There are two things that can


be done. More crisis intervention. Unfortunately when someone is in


crisis, there is a run -- revolving door between accident and emergency,


the police, and organisations like ours. The community response also


needs to be better. People need to be able to speak to people in the


same situation, supporting family members who are having suicidal


thoughts. It is still one of the most difficult things to talk about.


We have to leave it there, thank you very much.


In a moment we will discuss the big events coming up next week, but


first, let us take a look back at This week the Scottish Government's


281 �6 billion budget for the year ahead was approved in principle by


Parliament. I believe the Budget provides a


bold and ambitious programme of investment in people and


infrastructure. Westminster MPs voted in favour of a proposal to


lower the voting age in UK elections from 18-16. But the


result is not binding, and the Conservatives are opposed to the


moves. Unemployment in Scotland fell again.


It fell by 14,000, bringing down the total number of people who are


jobless to 207,000. It is time for a crackdown on people who abuse the


use of disabled parking badges. The SNP MSP launched a bill aimed at


giving officials greater powers to confiscate permits not be being


used properly. Let us take a look forward to the


next a than days. This week we have a splendid double


act joining us in the Edinburgh studio. We have Iain Macwhirter,


and in the studio we have Paul Gilbride from the Daily Express.


Thank you for joining us. Thank you for hanging on after a Andy Murray.


Let us look at one issue in their Sunday Herald. Nicola Sturgeon is


writing to the EU foreign ministers brandishing her pro-European


credentials, and we hear her talking about Lucinda Crichton as


well. Yes, this whole debate about whether or not Scotland will be


thrown out of Europe and would have to renegotiate away in is now


completely irrelevant because it is abundantly clear that of Scotland


votes to remain in the UK, we are just as likely to find ourselves


thrown out of the EU as a result of forts taken by Conservatives in the


south of England, decisions taken by Westminster. Paul Gilbride, it


was interesting what Fiona Hyslop was saying about Lucinda Crichton.


She was anxious to make sure that nothing from Ireland said it would


be a problem with Scotland applying or reapplying. The argument has


moved on, I do not think there is any issue that an independent


Scotland would be welcomed with open arms to Europe. The issue now


is would it have to reapply? After what was said last week, sorry,


before Christmas, Scotland would be an independent state. You're


shaking your head. Let us pick up on match. Quite clearly we are just


as likely to find ourselves out of Europe if Scotland remains within


the UK as if Scotland were to become independent. Scotland has


been under the protection of EU law for the last 20 years, and it would


be unique. There is no mechanism in the EU for throwing people out to


have been subject to the European law. It is redundant now. Let us


put upon the point for the pro Unionist parties. Mr Cameron's


statement on Wednesday threw them into disarray. Yes, but Labour will


come round. They have to state a position before we get into the


campaign for a referendum. The Better Together Campaign is not


about whether we stay in Europe, it is about whether Scotland stays in


the UK. It has a different campaign, a different argument. In the Sunday


Herald, the yes campaign boss says there is no need to battle over the


referendum question. Could there be a battle over the referendum


question? There will be an argument on it. I do not know if the


electoral commission will come up to any radical proposals to change


in it, but there will be some suggestions for the wording changed.


Blair Jenkins has suggested they have the final decision on this,


and under section 30, it is clear they do not. The decision will be


taken by the Scottish parliament. I think it would be almost


inconceivable if the Scottish parliament would reject a


reasonable proposal made. Blair Jenkins was saying that we should


just accept what they say. I agree. The electoral commission is seen as


impartial, independent, and a Scottish parliament can start


arguing with their recommendations can do more damage than good. The


question, do you agree Scotland should become an independent


country, people have argued that is loaded, do you agree. We should get


a question, should Scotland become independent? Something like that.


The big issue will be the funding. Yes, there will be an argument over


that as well because the yes campaign are fairly keen to keep a


lid on the funding abyss. They are uneasy at the prospect of being up


against all the Unionist parties. Also, there has been a backwash of


debates taking place out of the border, and they want to keep tight


control on it. There will be a relaxation of that. Do you think


there will be a big fight over it? I think there could be. The funding


from south of the border could flood in. That would be an unfair


advantage for the pro-union campaign. Paul Gilbride and Iain


Macwhirter, thank you for joining us. We are on a bit later than


normal to a thank you for staying That is all from us this week. Just


a reminder about a Newsnight Scotland special programme coming


up tomorrow. An audience representing Scotland's ethnic


minority communities will question leading politicians about issues


Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Andrew Kerr.

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