10/02/2013 Sunday Politics Scotland


10/02/2013

Isabel Fraser with the latest political news, interviews and debate in Scotland.


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Good morning. Welcome to the programme. The Government announced

:00:40.:00:44.

its tough new tests for meat products. Is it a case of shutting

:00:44.:00:50.

the stable door after the horse has bolted? We will ask the Environment

:00:50.:00:53.

Secretary and his Labour shadow and bring you the latest on the

:00:53.:00:57.

horsemeat scandal. After Christine's disgrace, the

:00:57.:01:01.

coalition partners are in a political fight to the death over

:01:01.:01:06.

his vacant seat in Eastleigh. We will ask to Energy Secretary if it

:01:06.:01:15.

is a by-election for his party. Can the NHS really be described as

:01:15.:01:21.

the envy of the world? And in Scotland, we will be

:01:21.:01:24.

speaking to Michael Moorer and Nicola Sturgeon about their reports

:01:24.:01:34.
:01:34.:01:34.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1856 seconds

:01:34.:32:31.

tomorrow. Will be deliver the We are having to import a lot more

:32:31.:32:41.
:32:41.:32:41.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1856 seconds

:32:41.:40:55.

The principle of getting high quality health care, in spite of an

:40:55.:41:03.

ability to pay. They NHS has only one way. Is there only one way, is

:41:03.:41:08.

any way you can change the NHS? the evidence shows that people want

:41:08.:41:15.

to go to their hospital closest to them. Most people actually want

:41:15.:41:19.

their local hospital to be as good as it can be and they want to

:41:19.:41:24.

travel relatively small distances. What we have to focus on is getting

:41:24.:41:29.

the number of elderly patients out of our hospitals, because they are

:41:29.:41:33.

blocking the acute care beds. We have this culture now that has

:41:33.:41:39.

developed, that people go to hospital to die have the time. 50 %

:41:39.:41:43.

of people die in hospital. A lot of them do not need to be in hospital

:41:43.:41:47.

at that point, they could be at home, are they could be in a home,

:41:47.:41:53.

if we had better care from social care. Social care is broken down,

:41:53.:41:58.

family structures have broken down, no one wants to care for her their

:41:58.:42:03.

grandparents. People have multiple illnesses that are essentially

:42:03.:42:07.

incurable, they need tender loving care and that is something that we

:42:07.:42:15.

cannot prescribe. You are watching the Sunday

:42:15.:42:25.

politics. Good morning. Welcome to Sunday

:42:25.:42:30.

Politics Scotland. Coming up - speed reading glasses at the ready,

:42:30.:42:34.

tomorrow, Westminster will come out fighting with the launch of the

:42:34.:42:40.

report about Scotland's role in the UK. Holyrood are preparing a

:42:40.:42:50.
:42:50.:42:51.

counter-punch. They will recommend keeping the pen serving.

:42:51.:42:57.

And we hear about the impact of welfare reform changes. My GP says

:42:57.:43:04.

that he's not fit to work. Because I can walk I cannot get employment

:43:04.:43:08.

support. And as to displays and vending

:43:08.:43:12.

machines are banned, prepare for even more anti-smoking measures

:43:12.:43:19.

coming in soon. Having two governments looking

:43:19.:43:23.

after affairs offers the best of both worlds, according to the Prime

:43:23.:43:28.

Minister. David Cameron is writing today in defence of the Union, head

:43:28.:43:32.

of his government releasing a report about Scotland's role in the

:43:32.:43:40.

UK. The Scottish government's Fiscal Commission also publish a

:43:40.:43:45.

report tomorrow. It will recommend that they keep the sterling

:43:45.:43:49.

immediately post-independence. It was all smiles and handshakes on

:43:49.:43:54.

the day that Alex Salmond and David Cameron signed their Edinburgh

:43:54.:43:58.

Agreement on the independence referendum. But be in no doubt.

:43:58.:44:02.

These two men have a fundamental disagreement about what the outcome

:44:02.:44:08.

of the vote should be. It is up to Alex Salmond to advance cutting

:44:08.:44:12.

edge arguments for Scotland to become an independent country. He

:44:13.:44:16.

will give us the detailed workings of an independent Scotland this

:44:16.:44:23.

autumn. But the transition to independence, he says, could be

:44:23.:44:27.

complete within 18 months of a Yes vote.

:44:27.:44:31.

Let us look at their Internationale examples. 30 countries had been

:44:31.:44:37.

through the process that we are about to go through. The average

:44:37.:44:40.

timescale from the referendum to independence is 15 months. With all

:44:40.:44:44.

these other countries can do it, then why not Scotland? These are

:44:44.:44:48.

being questioned by the man from the union that represents senior

:44:48.:44:53.

civil servants. We really do not see how that will be done in this

:44:53.:44:58.

16 month period. We may be wrong, it maybe that the two governments

:44:58.:45:07.

simply to call boxes and each say, Westminster says yes to everything,

:45:07.:45:10.

or Holyrood concedes everything. We will wait to see, but we think it

:45:11.:45:15.

will be more difficult than is perhaps currently perceived. Today,

:45:15.:45:21.

the Prime Minister has weighed in. He said, those arguing for

:45:21.:45:24.

independence are already preparing their separation transition plan is

:45:24.:45:29.

if they have it in the back. To me, that is wrong, it is like fast-

:45:29.:45:32.

forwarding to the closing credits before you have been allowed to see

:45:32.:45:38.

the movie. Michael Moore has his role to play.

:45:38.:45:42.

It is his job to find a truckload of arguments for Scotland to stay

:45:42.:45:47.

in the Union. He will deliver the first in a series of papers on that

:45:47.:45:53.

topic tomorrow. We must make the big issues and bring clarity to the

:45:54.:45:57.

process, but the big issues are what matter to people across the

:45:57.:46:00.

country and that is what we will focus on.

:46:00.:46:04.

There is another report out tomorrow, from the chairman of the

:46:04.:46:09.

Scottish government's economic advisers. They are promising a

:46:09.:46:15.

well-engineered economic model for an independent Scotland. Both Alex

:46:15.:46:18.

Salmond and David Cameron have brought in the boffins to bolster

:46:18.:46:24.

their arguments over Scotland's future. The independence debate is

:46:24.:46:28.

entering in the face. I am joined by the Secretary of

:46:28.:46:33.

State for Scotland, the Liberal Democrat MP Michael Moore. We had

:46:33.:46:37.

been hearing that the UK government will be publishing this paper

:46:37.:46:41.

tomorrow. How will that persuade people to stay in the Union? What

:46:41.:46:46.

kind of arguments we beat applying? I think that the report is right to

:46:46.:46:50.

say that we move into a new phase. But the process behind us and

:46:51.:46:55.

getting to the big issues that affect people and matter. What we

:46:55.:46:59.

are essentially saying, the Prime Minister sets it out this morning,

:46:59.:47:04.

is that Scotland gets the best of both worlds as part of the United

:47:04.:47:09.

Kingdom. As Parliament, we are able to decide whether it is in

:47:09.:47:13.

Scotland's interests, about the things that are decided here in

:47:13.:47:19.

Scotland. But her national security, our place in the world, the

:47:19.:47:22.

strength and opportunities of their economy, we can do that at the UK

:47:22.:47:27.

level as well. There is a big positive case for Scotland's

:47:27.:47:31.

continuing to be part of the United Kingdom, we will start the process

:47:31.:47:34.

of laying out his arguments tomorrow. We hear these arguments

:47:34.:47:39.

quite often have. What's a stance of arguments will commit a moral

:47:39.:47:45.

that will persuade people? Their Parr Hall series of issues around

:47:45.:47:51.

the independence debate. -- Ferrara whole series of issues. Scottish

:47:51.:47:56.

business, Scottish jobs, around the world. What we are doing tomorrow

:47:56.:48:00.

is setting out our view of the cornerstone of all this. Setting

:48:00.:48:06.

out the detail of how devolution is good for Scotland. Showing how the

:48:06.:48:09.

parliament created in the last 14 years, the new powers given to it.

:48:09.:48:16.

We are unable to respond to the demands and wishes here in Scotland

:48:16.:48:20.

while still having the strength and security and opportunity of the

:48:20.:48:24.

whole of the United Kingdom. People are really hungry for facts. This

:48:24.:48:31.

sounds like some of the old arguments being we treaded. --

:48:31.:48:38.

retreated. Do you have any information to give to people?

:48:38.:48:43.

need to highlight the reality that if we become independent, that is

:48:43.:48:46.

devolution at an end. We will lose the advantages and flexibility that

:48:46.:48:56.
:48:56.:48:57.

comes as part of the existing arrangement, and certainly we will

:48:57.:49:00.

be looking at what Scotland has as part of the UK and what would be at

:49:00.:49:10.

stake if we were to got along. -- go-it-alone. You talk about the

:49:10.:49:14.

dangers of what is at stake if we go-it-alone. It is often the

:49:14.:49:22.

negative arguments that better to get there are putting forward. --

:49:22.:49:28.

better together. I have just spent the last few minutes been

:49:28.:49:31.

relentlessly positive than talking about the good things that we can

:49:31.:49:36.

already do. We have great flexibility which means that we can

:49:36.:49:42.

decide here in Scotland what is taught in our schools, Scottish

:49:42.:49:47.

parliamentarians will decide that, not remote institutions like

:49:47.:49:50.

Westminster. But where it is appropriate use Westminster, with

:49:50.:49:55.

the banks, with trade to render world, that is a strong, positive

:49:55.:49:59.

case for staying in the UK. The positive side of this is there to

:49:59.:50:03.

be told, as the Prime Minister has done this morning, and we look

:50:03.:50:09.

forward to making much of that in the Munster come. The report, some

:50:09.:50:14.

will say, will be highlighting the negative impact on Scotland when it

:50:14.:50:17.

comes to the European Union, that Scotland would have a very weak

:50:17.:50:22.

negotiating position. We are setting out a reality check that

:50:22.:50:27.

shows Scotland's situation as a very important member of the

:50:27.:50:30.

European Union at the moment, and what we would be beating at stake,

:50:31.:50:35.

the need for us to negotiate our terms within the European Union,

:50:35.:50:39.

where the currency issue will be up for grabs, where the border

:50:39.:50:43.

controls will need to be resolved, we will need to work out what we

:50:43.:50:46.

will pay to other farmers and fishermen. That will go into a

:50:46.:50:52.

melting pot over which we have less control. But those issues we are

:50:52.:50:56.

bringing out euro are the kind of issues that people want answers on

:50:56.:51:00.

and it is in your power to find out those answers from the Commission,

:51:01.:51:03.

because the president of the commission said that it is only a

:51:03.:51:08.

member state that can ask those kind of questions. Kenny and the

:51:08.:51:11.

Scottish Government give the people of Scotland those definitive

:51:11.:51:16.

answers? Can you work together? have been clear about this. The

:51:17.:51:20.

Scotland becomes independent, it becomes a separate state and it has

:51:20.:51:26.

to apply for membership and started the terms and conditions. Frankly,

:51:26.:51:33.

we have not had a poor night's -- precise scenario. We have had a lot

:51:33.:51:38.

of speculation. Just answer the court., we will be setting out

:51:38.:51:46.

tomorrow are very clear terms, I review, backed up by legal experts,

:51:46.:51:50.

which show that Scotland will be needing to apply for that

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membership and will need to sort out its terms and conditions, which

:51:53.:51:57.

has been a long-held view. People need to study their arguments and

:51:57.:52:02.

make their own judgment. So you have a new legal expert, someone

:52:02.:52:05.

with the full weight and authority behind him, saying that Scotland

:52:05.:52:11.

will have to reapply to join the you? Is that a key point? The legal

:52:11.:52:14.

basis of the United Kingdom, the strength we will get from the party

:52:14.:52:18.

it, we will make sure that all of our key points are well source,

:52:18.:52:23.

well researched and scrutinised by independent experts, so that the

:52:23.:52:28.

case we make is as strong as possible. I think it is very strong

:52:28.:52:32.

and will really be in force our central message. Scotland gets a

:52:32.:52:38.

great deal by being part of the United Kingdom, the UK gets a great

:52:38.:52:41.

deal from being part of the in European Union. Why pick that its

:52:41.:52:46.

stake? If you have that evidence, why not approach the European

:52:46.:52:52.

Commission and say to them, give us a definitive answer about Scotland.

:52:52.:52:57.

For some reason, you were not doing that. When you scared of what the

:52:57.:53:02.

commission might say? What I have watched as the Scottish Government

:53:02.:53:06.

shuffling through a whole series of positions where they have said that

:53:06.:53:10.

they have the opposite -- legal advice, then said they did not.

:53:10.:53:15.

What we are setting out tomorrow is a very clear argument and report

:53:15.:53:18.

from the UK government, backed up independently, that will show that

:53:18.:53:22.

Scotland's place in the UK is the right place to be, is the strong

:53:22.:53:26.

place to be, and that therefore people can take confidence from

:53:26.:53:30.

arguments that we are making. have the Fiscal Commission report

:53:30.:53:40.

being published tomorrow. The recommendation is that Scotland

:53:40.:53:42.

should keep sterling post- independence. For the people of

:53:43.:53:46.

Scotland, could you give some guarantees that the Bank of England

:53:46.:53:51.

would recommend that Scotland perhaps could keep sterling post-

:53:51.:53:56.

independence? So that people have that kind of stability? I am

:53:56.:54:00.

fascinated to hear, and like you I have only seen what is in the

:54:00.:54:03.

newspapers today, that the recommendation is to keep the pound.

:54:03.:54:07.

We already have it is part of the United Kingdom. Why would we want

:54:08.:54:11.

to become independent just to keep the pound. It is a very strange

:54:11.:54:16.

argument indeed. It is in our interests, I agree with that, and

:54:16.:54:22.

that is why Scotland staying in the UK is the way forward. Scotland

:54:22.:54:25.

gets a much stronger and better deal as part of the UK than it

:54:25.:54:30.

would if it went to one. We have also had another report from the

:54:30.:54:38.

Scottish government, road map, -- Scotland's Future, which party do

:54:38.:54:45.

disagree with most? There is a long way to go before we have all the

:54:45.:54:51.

issues set out from the Scottish government's side. What we are

:54:51.:54:57.

setting out tomorrow will in-depth and in detail and so a lot of the

:54:57.:55:00.

questions that they had been unable to answer. We need to have a debate

:55:00.:55:06.

about the time scales that will be involved. We have had predictions

:55:06.:55:09.

about Independence Day but Scotland has not been asked to vote and has

:55:09.:55:13.

yet. We do not know when we will vote on independence. I'm confident

:55:13.:55:17.

that we will stay part of the UK. We need to get on to the serious

:55:17.:55:23.

points of substance. We have your report coming tomorrow, is this the

:55:23.:55:28.

start of the renegotiation? We have been clear from the outset that the

:55:28.:55:32.

negotiations are not appropriate and cannot take place. However,

:55:32.:55:38.

proper, sensible, reasoned argument about Scotland's place in the UK is

:55:38.:55:44.

essential. Our report will set the tone for that. Thank you. Coming up

:55:44.:55:48.

in a moment we have the Deputy First Minister, but first let us

:55:48.:55:54.

take a look at the time line that came out of Scotland's --

:55:54.:56:02.

Scotland's Future document, which came out last week.

:56:02.:56:06.

If it is a yes vote, and associations begin between Holyrood

:56:06.:56:11.

and Westminster, between Holyrood and the European Union, and between

:56:11.:56:14.

Holyrood and other international organisations. In the middle of

:56:14.:56:20.

which, we will have a UK general election and possibly a new

:56:20.:56:24.

Westminster and was sating partner. The Scottish Government also wants

:56:24.:56:28.

the Westminster to transfer the powers to allow Holyrood to

:56:28.:56:34.

legislate for a new Scottish state. The song needs to be done for 20th

:56:34.:56:42.

March 16. -- best song needs to be done. They will then be in the

:56:42.:56:52.
:56:52.:57:00.

elections for the first parliament We are hearing that the UK

:57:00.:57:03.

Government have this coming out tomorrow and they have some

:57:03.:57:07.

authority. It is weighty evidence, saying Scotland would have to

:57:07.:57:12.

reapply to become a member of the European Union. It is not what do

:57:12.:57:17.

you want, is it? I look forward to reading the paper tomorrow. I had

:57:17.:57:23.

to laugh, listening to Michael Moore because the real uncertainty

:57:23.:57:30.

around Scotland being a member of the youth is David Cameron. We have

:57:30.:57:39.

been very clear that the terms of our continuing membership of the EU

:57:39.:57:43.

would need to be negotiated, but that would happen from within the

:57:43.:57:49.

EU. Scotland benefits a great deal from being within the EU. I think

:57:49.:57:52.

we would be better off independent and able to stand up for our

:57:52.:57:56.

national interest, but Europe benefits from having Scotland as a

:57:56.:58:00.

member state. We have offered to sit down with the UK Government to

:58:00.:58:07.

draw up that scenario and present it to the EU Commission. David

:58:07.:58:12.

Cameron does not want to do that. It seems to be a pretty unclear

:58:12.:58:17.

position actually, as in December you said it was your intention to

:58:17.:58:20.

negotiate the terms of an independent Scotland's continuing

:58:20.:58:26.

membership of the youth from within, and bent to on 7th February, two

:58:26.:58:32.

Labour's Ken Mackintosh, you expect Scotland's transition from member

:58:32.:58:37.

of the EU to be negotiated. So now you say you expect that. So you

:58:37.:58:41.

have changed that. My position has not changed. It is our intention

:58:41.:58:45.

and I fully expect that to be the case. Let me tell you in more

:58:45.:58:50.

detail why. This is an important legal point and it is a point that

:58:50.:58:54.

has been backed up by its experts. There is nothing in the European

:58:54.:58:58.

treaty that would allow a country, just because it exercised its

:58:59.:59:03.

Domecq -- democratic right to self- determination, to somehow put

:59:03.:59:07.

outside of the European Union. If you look at countries who want to

:59:07.:59:12.

lead the European Union, it is very complicated. And it is in

:59:12.:59:16.

everyone's interests, for Scotland's continuing membership of

:59:16.:59:20.

the European Union to be settled and that -- for that to be a

:59:20.:59:23.

process which happens from within. So that is not just our expectation

:59:23.:59:29.

but our intention and it meets the crucial test of common sense.

:59:29.:59:31.

mention your constitution expert. The UK Government have theirs and I

:59:31.:59:34.

was saying to Michael Moore about the joint submission to the

:59:34.:59:39.

European Commission, because you were rebuffed by the president of

:59:39.:59:42.

the European Commission. Have you written to the Secretary of State

:59:42.:59:45.

to ask for some kind of joint commission? Yes, I have made it

:59:45.:59:48.

very clear that Scottish Government is happy to do this. We disagree on

:59:48.:59:53.

what the outcome of the referendum should be but I think in the -- and

:59:53.:59:56.

the Electoral Commission make this point, that we have a duty to sit

:59:56.:00:01.

down and look at the prices that would follow a "yes" vote, and make

:00:01.:00:03.

sure we are providing as much information to the people of

:00:03.:00:08.

Scotland as possible. The European Commission say they will only look

:00:08.:00:11.

at a proposal coming from an existing member state. We have said

:00:11.:00:15.

we have nothing to fear from that. We are confident in the prices we

:00:15.:00:19.

believe would happen, so let's sit down and put that to the European

:00:19.:00:23.

Commission. Michael Moore could not explain a few moments ago why the

:00:23.:00:27.

UK Government is not able to do that, so I am happy to repeat the

:00:27.:00:31.

offer to him today that we sit down and do that and then let the

:00:31.:00:38.

European Commission look at that. Let's move on the way from the UK

:00:38.:00:42.

Government's paper tomorrow to your paper tomorrow, from the Fiscal

:00:42.:00:47.

Commission. It talks about leaving the union yet keeping the pound.

:00:47.:00:51.

But if we do that, you're taking your hands of the levers of

:00:51.:00:55.

influence, aren't you? If you keep the pound Stirling post

:00:55.:01:00.

independence? The report tomorrow will be from the Fiscal Commission,

:01:00.:01:04.

part of the First Minister's council of economic advisers. It is

:01:04.:01:07.

from independent experts, and I look forward to reading the full

:01:08.:01:12.

report. The Scottish Government will take it seriously. It would

:01:12.:01:17.

not only be in Scotland's interests to remain within Stirling but it

:01:17.:01:22.

would be within the interest of the rest of the UK, for example,

:01:22.:01:26.

because of the volley of our oil and gas and whisky experts --

:01:26.:01:31.

exports. Of course, if we are independent, what we would have

:01:31.:01:35.

that we do not have now are the fiscal levers, the power over tax,

:01:35.:01:38.

the Palace you need to get the economy going and to create jobs

:01:38.:01:42.

and that is usually voluble. We would also have power over the

:01:42.:01:46.

welfare system, for example. I read this morning David Cameron saying

:01:46.:01:50.

the UK system of Government works for Scotland. He is living proof

:01:50.:01:54.

that it does not, because we have Tory prime ministers that we do not

:01:54.:01:59.

even vote for introducing policies we do not want. So you talk about

:01:59.:02:03.

having fiscal power, taxes, but you would not have that monetary power,

:02:03.:02:09.

and at the moment in the UK... not sure that is the case. Let me

:02:09.:02:14.

finish. The whole point of the Act of Union was we were able to use

:02:14.:02:18.

the plant and Scots have that political influence. So staying

:02:18.:02:23.

with Team Sterling -- Stirling does not involve Scotland giving up any

:02:23.:02:27.

powers that we do not currently have, but it gives us important

:02:27.:02:30.

powers of this fiscal arrangements, powers you need to make sure you

:02:30.:02:34.

have a strong, growing economy, creating jobs when you need those

:02:35.:02:38.

jobs, and power over the welfare system. At the moment we are

:02:38.:02:43.

watching the welfare state and being dismantled before our eyes.

:02:43.:02:46.

The papers this morning are full of the stories are that the dreaded

:02:46.:02:50.

bedroom tax. Let's stick with monetary policy and the Bank of

:02:51.:02:55.

England governor, the new one, Mark Carney, is now in the UK. What

:02:55.:02:59.

plans to your administration have to meet him? We would be very happy

:02:59.:03:02.

to meet with him and with any representatives of the UK

:03:02.:03:07.

Government, for example, to discuss all of this, because it is right,

:03:07.:03:11.

going back to Europe, that while we have differing opinions on these

:03:11.:03:14.

matters, we are prepared to have discussions and prepare the ground

:03:14.:03:18.

for the eventuality of Scotland voting "yes" in the referendum. I

:03:18.:03:21.

am sure Mark Carney and other representatives of the UK

:03:21.:03:26.

Government will be interested to read the paper from the Fiscal

:03:26.:03:30.

Commission tomorrow, because it is produced by a range of eminent

:03:30.:03:33.

experts. Let's get on to your document this week, Scotland's

:03:34.:03:38.

Future. That was published, the road map to independence day but

:03:38.:03:41.

the time round has been severely criticised by people. One expert

:03:41.:03:46.

said it was a road map that would eventually lead to a car crash.

:03:46.:03:50.

I heard another on BBC radio yesterday morning saying he thought

:03:50.:03:55.

it was a very leisurely timescale. It is a time scale based on

:03:55.:04:00.

precedent. If you look at 30 countries who have become

:04:00.:04:03.

independent after a referendum, 15 months is the average time that at

:04:03.:04:08.

look. Scotland, and this is important, already has much of the

:04:08.:04:12.

machinery of Government. We have our own parliament, Government,

:04:12.:04:18.

civil services, an independent judicial commission in Scotland.

:04:19.:04:23.

The key point is that Scotland votes "yes" it is also in the

:04:23.:04:26.

interest of the rest of the UK for these matters to be resolved as

:04:26.:04:32.

quickly and smoothly as possible and I believe that is what happened.

:04:32.:04:37.

But I believe the report was heavily criticised by a other

:04:37.:04:41.

experts. Let me just finish. Looking at the constitutional

:04:42.:04:47.

platform you are setting up, what is that house way -- halfway house

:04:47.:04:52.

between 2014 and 2016? After there is an independent parliament

:04:52.:04:55.

elected, the parliament will have the ability to develop a written

:04:55.:05:01.

constitution for the future of Scotland but what we need to see

:05:01.:05:04.

between 2014 and 2016 is a transfer of powers that allows that

:05:05.:05:07.

independent parliament to be elected and start to get to work.

:05:07.:05:17.

We want to see a better Scotland. Thank you.

:05:17.:05:21.

Coming up after the news, we are looking at ATOS, the organisation

:05:21.:05:27.

which tests people 4th it has to work. It is being condemned as a

:05:27.:05:34.

failure by a House of Commons committee. We are also looking at...

:05:34.:05:38.

Joined us in a few minutes. Time for the BBC News and Reporting

:05:38.:05:41.

Scotland. The Environment Minister, Owen

:05:41.:05:47.

Paterson, has moved to reassure shoppers that all processed meat

:05:47.:05:50.

products currently on sale in supermarkets are safe to eat.

:05:50.:05:55.

Speaking on this programme, he said he had been reassured by the FT

:05:55.:05:58.

Standards Authority, despite the fact that tests on a whole range of

:05:59.:06:02.

processed meat products to see if they contain horse meat are being

:06:02.:06:09.

carried out. How much contamination has there

:06:09.:06:13.

been to our food? The Government is already warning they could be more

:06:13.:06:17.

bad news ahead, after the meat in something this lasagne has labelled

:06:17.:06:22.

as beef was found to be up to 100 % horse. Tests are now being carried

:06:22.:06:28.

out across the industry with results due by Friday. People are

:06:28.:06:33.

eating horse meat unerringly this lunch time. That is possible and

:06:33.:06:38.

that is why we are carrying out this screening. It looks as if the

:06:38.:06:43.

problem is with processed beef, and it looks as if there has been no

:06:43.:06:47.

criminal substitution of beef with a horse. A number of retailers have

:06:47.:06:52.

been caught up. Findus is taking legal advice over whether there are

:06:52.:06:55.

crowns of pursuing a case against its suppliers. Ministers have been

:06:55.:07:00.

under fire for not reacting quicker and Labour says congeners --

:07:00.:07:05.

consumers have been given conflicting advice. People are

:07:05.:07:10.

making Joyce is not to buy processed meat and ministers are

:07:10.:07:15.

advised by the feats standards agency. It says, do not eat Findus

:07:15.:07:21.

beef products. Owen Paterson says, I would happily tucking. There will

:07:21.:07:26.

now be a look at stricter rules. The Government is expected to

:07:26.:07:31.

announce an extension of the freeze on inheritance tax to help pay for

:07:31.:07:38.

more state funded care for the elderly in England. It means

:07:38.:07:43.

thousands more people will become liable for the tax.

:07:43.:07:47.

If a month-old baby boy is recovering well in hospital after

:07:47.:07:52.

reportedly having a finger torn off by a fox as he slept in his cot.

:07:52.:07:56.

The child was brushed from his home in south-east London to St Thomas's

:07:56.:08:00.

Hospital, where surgeons were able to reattach his finger.

:08:00.:08:04.

The former England and Tottenham player Paul Gascoigne is reported

:08:04.:08:09.

to have been placed in an intensive care unit after collapsing. He flew

:08:09.:08:13.

to America this week to check into a rehabilitation clinic in Arizona

:08:13.:08:18.

to deal with his drink problems. His trip and time in we have is

:08:18.:08:27.

being paid for by friends. More on BBC One at 6pm.

:08:27.:08:32.

Good afternoon. The UK Government is appearing too -- preparing to

:08:32.:08:39.

release a report tomorrow on Scottish independence. We have been

:08:39.:08:43.

told that they will publish new evidence to bolster their position

:08:43.:08:51.

that Scotland will need to reapply for small -- new EU membership.

:08:51.:08:56.

will be publishing are view, backed up by experts, which shows that

:08:56.:09:01.

Scotland will need to apply for its membership.

:09:01.:09:03.

Scotland's Environment Secretary will discuss with his UK

:09:03.:09:06.

counterpart later to discuss the horse meat scandal. Inspections

:09:06.:09:11.

have been carried out in Scotland after it emerged some meat products

:09:11.:09:17.

south of the border contained 100 % horse meat. Richard Lochhead says

:09:17.:09:21.

no Scottish manufacturers are currently affected. People speak to

:09:21.:09:25.

Owen Paterson this afternoon. The interim Scotland will be coach,

:09:25.:09:29.

Scott Johnson, has claimed the team's aim is now winning the Six

:09:29.:09:32.

Nations Championship after ending their long wait for a victory in

:09:32.:09:37.

the tournament. The Scots defeated Italy 34-10 at Murrayfield, their

:09:37.:09:45.

first Six Nations win in two years. A cloudy picture for the bulk of

:09:45.:09:50.

the country this afternoon, with continued outbreaks of rain forces

:09:50.:09:55.

and Scotland with snow falling in land over the high ground. Wintery

:09:55.:09:58.

showers will continue to feed into eastern parts of the country on a

:09:58.:10:03.

fresh easterly wind, again with snow over the high ground inland.

:10:03.:10:09.

The best of the weather this afternoon for north-western parts

:10:09.:10:13.

and places like Inverness with plenty of sunshine, though cold

:10:13.:10:22.

MPs at Westminster have launched a scathing attack on the UK

:10:22.:10:26.

Government's welfare reforms. The Public Audit Committee says the

:10:26.:10:30.

fit-for-work tests are failing and all too often, leading to the wrong

:10:30.:10:35.

decisions being mate. It is a complaint MSPs and Holyrood's

:10:35.:10:40.

Welfare Reform Committee has been hearing a lot about this week.

:10:40.:10:47.

This process is pushing me to the very edge. This man used to be a

:10:47.:10:53.

debt -- vet before he developed fibromyalgia. He has been on

:10:53.:10:56.

incapacity benefit for Vitali Klitschko years but has recently

:10:56.:11:05.

been assessed as able to work. -- for eight years. My GP says, he is

:11:05.:11:12.

not able to work, because I am able to walk. This is because I make an

:11:12.:11:19.

effort to go out. So now I cannot get support. Lesley's husband is in

:11:20.:11:23.

the same situation. He retired five years ago with mental and physical

:11:23.:11:31.

issues. Now he has been cleared for work, too. She says more notice

:11:31.:11:35.

needs -- needs to be taken of mental health issues. Because he

:11:35.:11:40.

was very slow and took a long time to do the physical part, because he

:11:40.:11:44.

had to do bending and stretching, and that it quite a bit of time,

:11:44.:11:48.

the amount of time that was left was very short, so therefore it had

:11:48.:11:52.

to be very rushed. She says the refusal of GPs to give her husband

:11:52.:11:56.

a medical report because of their blanket acceptance of these

:11:56.:12:02.

benefits test did not help. view was that very understanding of

:12:02.:12:11.

how I was feeling, but a very careful to say the benefits system,

:12:11.:12:17.

we cannot afford the benefits system, the Government, and, you

:12:17.:12:24.

know, people have to be assessed, and if you are assessed as fit, you

:12:24.:12:29.

are fit. And now Westminster's Public Audit Committee says the

:12:29.:12:33.

Department of Work and Pensions is making too many mistakes. Do you

:12:33.:12:40.

know of those who are turned down for Employment? 40% of them appeal

:12:40.:12:44.

and 38 % of them win that appeal. There is something wrong with an

:12:44.:12:48.

assessment that throws up and many appeals in the first place but that

:12:48.:12:53.

many successful appeals is a particular worry. The UK Government

:12:53.:12:56.

insists the benefits assessment process is improving. He says the

:12:57.:13:03.

previous system abandoned's people to a life on benefits. Now they are

:13:03.:13:07.

checking to see if they could go back to work with the right support.

:13:07.:13:11.

The system was not as effective as it could be. We are reforming it to

:13:11.:13:16.

make sure we get more decisions right first time. So far, 17,000

:13:16.:13:20.

Scots have been reclassified as fit for work by Government assessors,

:13:20.:13:24.

ATOS. Those who feel they have been badly treated say they are just

:13:25.:13:29.

calling for a fairer system. More on this now. I am joined by

:13:29.:13:34.

the Labour MP, and Beck, chair of the House of Commons working

:13:34.:13:44.
:13:44.:13:53.

pension select committee. -- Anne The committee have criticised ATOS.

:13:53.:13:58.

But it you is your government that awarded it and then re warded it in

:13:58.:14:03.

2005. The law process dead start under the last Labour government,

:14:03.:14:08.

but I would like to hope that were we still in power we would have

:14:08.:14:12.

been listening to the deluge of criticism that has been coming down

:14:12.:14:19.

on this process under way it has been working in practice. We only

:14:19.:14:22.

introduced it far new claimants. But what we are seeing is those who

:14:22.:14:27.

were previously on incapacity benefit I now been moved on to the

:14:27.:14:31.

new benefit system, and are having to go through the assessment

:14:31.:14:39.

process. The system inherited from Labour, says the minister, was not

:14:39.:14:42.

fit for purpose. Independent reviews have found that there is

:14:43.:14:52.
:14:53.:14:54.

not much need for a fireman ATOS. - - for a reform in ATOS. The way

:14:54.:14:59.

that it was designed was not fit for purpose. But it was then

:14:59.:15:01.

incumbent on the government to change the way that it was actually

:15:01.:15:07.

being delivered. There is nothing to stop me doing that. There's

:15:07.:15:11.

nothing to stop us looking again at the contract. The important thing

:15:11.:15:14.

is to look at what is going wrong and what needs to be changed in

:15:14.:15:20.

order to make these assessments. Most people would agree that

:15:20.:15:24.

somebody has to be assessed if they are going to get benefits, but to

:15:24.:15:28.

make those assessments much more accurate, much more softer, in a

:15:28.:15:33.

way, in the way that it reflects the people and their illnesses that

:15:33.:15:36.

they have and gets the positions right. The thing that is most

:15:36.:15:44.

heartbreaking for people is that when these decisions are wrong and

:15:44.:15:53.

when they go to the appeal they are not given any extra evidence, the

:15:53.:15:58.

decisions are being overturned at us on the same evidence. What is

:15:58.:16:05.

the problem with ATOS? Why have we seen so many appeals? There are a

:16:05.:16:11.

couple of reasons. One is that ATOS as a company decided to use a

:16:11.:16:17.

computer program to work out their assessments. That means that it has

:16:17.:16:21.

become very mechanistic. It was always a functional test, many who

:16:21.:16:27.

will think it is a medical test, it is not. And so, the computer tends

:16:27.:16:34.

to see everything very much in black and white. The Public

:16:34.:16:37.

Accounts Committee said that there was not any kind of intent to try

:16:37.:16:41.

to get other companies who would be interested in this he would deliver

:16:41.:16:49.

it quite differently, in a more face-to-face interview process.

:16:49.:16:53.

That is one of the things that has been going wrong. Like me pick up

:16:53.:16:58.

on that point. That is the trouble with ATOS. It is a monopoly

:16:58.:17:04.

supplier. That is it. There are companies throughout the world to

:17:04.:17:07.

do this sort of thing for other governments, but they do not do it

:17:08.:17:11.

in the same way. They have their own system, its computer system,

:17:11.:17:16.

and that is the problem. The reason the numbers are going up is because

:17:16.:17:21.

the government has speeded up the roll-out, or what they call the

:17:21.:17:31.

migration, from those that are presently on capacity benefit.

:17:31.:17:36.

Putting them on to employments support allowance. There are 11,000

:17:36.:17:40.

letters a week going out to people who are presently on incapacity

:17:40.:17:43.

benefit and they are being asked to go when it and to fill in a form

:17:43.:17:47.

and then going for an assessment. Because these are people who have

:17:47.:17:55.

already had benefits, when the lose it, inevitably they are going to

:17:55.:18:00.

appeal. That is where the numbers of Appeal have gone up. But the

:18:00.:18:04.

decisions have also sometimes been wrong in the first place as well.

:18:04.:18:09.

Thank you for joining us. A ban on tobacco displays in supermarkets

:18:09.:18:13.

comes into effect at the end of April, but how far will it go

:18:13.:18:19.

towards persuading smokers to kick the habit? Anti-smoking campaigners

:18:19.:18:23.

say that more radical measures are needed if Scotland is to become

:18:23.:18:27.

smoke-free. With the Scottish Government to reveal its new

:18:28.:18:35.

strategy in the next few weeks, we look at what options are.

:18:36.:18:40.

The dangers of smoking have been known since the late 1950s, but it

:18:40.:18:45.

was only in 2006 that Scotland became the first part of the UK to

:18:45.:18:50.

ban smoking in enclosed public places and it has been seen as a

:18:50.:18:55.

success, with a 17 % drop in heart attacks in the first year, a

:18:55.:19:00.

reduction in sheltered asthma, and have fallen premature births. But

:19:00.:19:05.

while the number of people lighting up has fallen, smoking still leads

:19:05.:19:10.

to 13,500 deaths in Scotland each year. That is one in five. It is

:19:10.:19:15.

also responsible for a 33,500 hospital measures. -- hospital

:19:16.:19:23.

admissions. At the end of April, Scotland will follow England's

:19:23.:19:29.

example of introducing restrictions on tobacco displays in bigger

:19:29.:19:34.

stores. Vending machine at the sales were also be illegal. But

:19:34.:19:39.

campaigners say that more needs to be done. We need to Pate smoking

:19:39.:19:45.

out of fashion. We need to have standardised packaging for tobacco

:19:45.:19:52.

products. Mistily a plot that in. It is about getting rid of the

:19:52.:19:58.

glitzy in injury that gets young people addicted. -- in injury.

:19:58.:20:02.

There are some smokers who do want to quit, but there are many smokers

:20:02.:20:05.

to enjoy it and have no intention of giving up and the more that you

:20:05.:20:12.

try to bully them, the more they are likely to take their hilts in -

:20:12.:20:18.

- dig their heels in. This advert is currently being shown in Wales.

:20:18.:20:23.

It is already illegal in South Africa and some States and Canada,

:20:23.:20:29.

Australia and the US to smoke in your car. Could it be on the cards

:20:29.:20:34.

here? The Public Health Minister is not giving much away. It is

:20:34.:20:37.

important to look at the whole range of measures that we can take

:20:37.:20:45.

forward that can help to contribute to reducing smoking in Scotland.

:20:45.:20:48.

Trying to reduce the number of young people that are attracted to

:20:48.:20:53.

it, we have had some success with that.

:20:53.:20:57.

The smoking ban has become an accepted part of everyday life in

:20:57.:21:03.

Scotland but will further Tobacco's restrictions be as welcome and

:21:04.:21:09.

effective? We are joined by Professor Gerard

:21:09.:21:11.

Hastings from Centre for Tobacco Control Research and the Institute

:21:11.:21:15.

of Social Marketing at Stirling University. Thank you for joining

:21:15.:21:21.

us. Can you enlighten us as to what the Scottish Government's tobacco

:21:21.:21:28.

control strategy might be? The minister was quite tight lipped.

:21:28.:21:32.

is his strategy, so why do not blame him. Listening to his report,

:21:32.:21:38.

it is a very good news story for Scotland. We have made enormous

:21:38.:21:43.

progress over the last few generations year. The majority of

:21:44.:21:48.

people were smoking in Scotland and it was taken for granted as a norm,

:21:48.:21:53.

now it is less than a quarter. What we do need to focus on his young

:21:53.:22:00.

people. Adults do not take up smoking. When we talk about adults

:22:00.:22:07.

enjoying their smoking, it ignores the fact that most adults regret

:22:07.:22:15.

ever starting, but also that it is a paediatric phenomenon. Only 5% of

:22:15.:22:25.
:22:25.:22:25.

the population smoking weed been then -- would be the ideal. Are you

:22:25.:22:29.

wanting to follow the Australian model and have some gruesome

:22:29.:22:34.

pictures on the carton? packaging should be seen not as a

:22:34.:22:39.

marketing tool of the industry. It is a multinational industry that is

:22:39.:22:43.

exploiting young people and kills one in two of its loyalist

:22:43.:22:52.

customers. Scotland should be rightly angry. It is then he should

:22:53.:22:57.

be in our minds as we move forward on this issue. It is not just a

:22:57.:23:00.

matter of me wanting to change things for the children, we all

:23:00.:23:05.

want that. Even the very few people that are delighted to be smokers,

:23:05.:23:10.

even the would never want children to take up this habit. The pro-

:23:10.:23:14.

smoking lobby, are pro-choice lobby say that the rate of smoking has

:23:14.:23:22.

not fallen that dramatically since evolutions -- since devolution. But

:23:22.:23:27.

tobacco control has gone up 15 fold. It is not as much of this excess it

:23:27.:23:32.

were trying to portray it be? are not thinking it through. Think

:23:32.:23:36.

about the item that he had been the date lay before her about

:23:36.:23:41.

incapacity benefit. How many of those people have got their to

:23:41.:23:47.

tobacco-related illness. It teaches people faster, it can take ten

:23:47.:23:55.

years of your life in every sense. -- it ages people faster. My

:23:55.:24:01.

argument could not be fiscal, it is moral. It is simply wrong that

:24:01.:24:07.

children are pooled into an industry that makes them addicted

:24:07.:24:13.

and then kills them. How much is smoking still linked to

:24:13.:24:17.

deprivation? Enormously. If you go to theirs then you will find barely

:24:17.:24:21.

any smokers. If you go to Drumchapel you will find large

:24:21.:24:27.

sectors of the population smoking. It is enormously so, it is a very

:24:27.:24:37.
:24:37.:24:53.

MSPs approved the annual budget of �28 billion for 2013-14. Last

:24:53.:24:58.

minute revisions including more money for colleges and the housing

:24:58.:25:02.

budget. This Government is investing to deliver for Scotland's

:25:02.:25:06.

young people in the future. Spontaneous applause across this

:25:06.:25:13.

part of the chamber for a �24 million cut to colleges. The Royal

:25:13.:25:21.

Bank of Scotland has agreed to pay nearly �400 million in fines. It is

:25:21.:25:28.

after the rigging of interest rates in the Libor scandal.

:25:28.:25:32.

In Westminster MPs approved a marriage. Scotland has published a

:25:32.:25:38.

similar bill which is up for consultation at the moment.

:25:38.:25:43.

And a new Scotland football manager in the end against Estonia.

:25:43.:25:49.

Do you think the politicians involved in the referendum debate

:25:49.:25:53.

will like that? Let's take a look at the big

:25:53.:25:59.

political events coming up in The Week Ahead.

:26:00.:26:06.

We have an academic double act this week, with Professor Murray Pittock,

:26:06.:26:09.

vice-principal of does the University, and Professor Adam

:26:09.:26:13.

Tomkins, a constitutional expert and Professor of Public Law at the

:26:13.:26:22.

same institution. Good afternoon. Murray, you have your reading

:26:22.:26:28.

glasses ready this week for these reports coming out? I will get

:26:28.:26:32.

through as many as I can. I am sure I will not get through them as fast

:26:32.:26:36.

as the politicians, but it is important. We have you writing this

:26:36.:26:42.

week saying it we will have your "yes" vote in the independence

:26:42.:26:47.

referendum. One of the reports coming out in the Sunday Herald is

:26:47.:26:50.

up at the Fiscal Commission and on the front page we have the pound

:26:50.:26:54.

logo. Do you think this is something that the Scottish

:26:54.:26:59.

Government will be able to pursue? It is quite a controversial issue,

:26:59.:27:05.

trying to keep the pound but yet separating from the UK. In some

:27:05.:27:11.

ways, we see this as rather too much of a controversial issue, and

:27:11.:27:17.

to take our closest neighbour, in some ways, Ireland, Ireland left

:27:17.:27:22.

the Stirling system on 30th March 1979, about 57 years after the

:27:23.:27:27.

Irish Free State was formed. The idea that countries outside the

:27:27.:27:37.
:27:37.:27:37.

estate whose currency... A currency from the state which is not their

:27:37.:27:41.

own state is not unknown in the present world from sovereign states

:27:41.:27:45.

in South America to the US dollar. But in terms of Stirling, the Irish

:27:45.:27:48.

example, though it is a very different world, clearly shows

:27:48.:27:51.

there is no reason why an independent Scotland should not

:27:51.:27:56.

keep the pound. Adam, you have been published as well this week,

:27:56.:27:58.

looking at the road map for the independence referendum. First,

:27:58.:28:02.

what is your position on the currency, what the Fiscal

:28:02.:28:06.

Commission are coming out with tomorrow? I do not know, I will

:28:06.:28:10.

read it tomorrow if I get time, thaw as soon as I can there afters.

:28:10.:28:15.

I agree with Murray. I see no reason why England and Scotland

:28:15.:28:19.

cannot keep the pound, but it is one of those very many issues.

:28:19.:28:24.

There are hundreds, probably thousands, that will need to be

:28:24.:28:27.

carefully, Felipe negotiated, between an independent Scotland,

:28:28.:28:31.

the rest are beat UK and the rest of the world in the event that

:28:31.:28:37.

Scotland does boat for independence in 2014. We have not been told the

:28:37.:28:41.

date but that is when we assume it is. It is one of those issues that

:28:41.:28:46.

will have to be talked about extremely carefully. Murray, there

:28:46.:28:49.

is a feeling people are looking for sub-standard facts at the moment.

:28:50.:28:57.

Michael Moore earlier taught about the UK Government report. This

:28:57.:29:02.

claim baby talk about, Scotland having to reapply for EU membership.

:29:02.:29:07.

I will wait and see the report. One of the ways to get fat, and I do

:29:07.:29:10.

not want to undermine our own position here, one of the ways to

:29:10.:29:16.

get facts, he is when experts used to reflect on the things cautiously

:29:16.:29:20.

and carefully, it is quite possible and they could do this all the way

:29:20.:29:24.

to polling day and Deanne, I have set some experts battling away at

:29:24.:29:28.

each of in opposition, because that is the nature of political and

:29:28.:29:32.

legal expertise, it is a practice pitch, and it is about conflict

:29:32.:29:37.

rather than conflict resolution. We need to have facts and there are a

:29:38.:29:42.

lot of facts out there. They could be more. They could be stronger

:29:42.:29:46.

research about the nature of comparative transitions. That is an

:29:46.:29:52.

important thing to get in place over the next 18 months. Whether

:29:52.:29:55.

they could be bat the Government has so they could be a transition

:29:55.:30:00.

to independence in 16 months. That is viewed as controversial. Third

:30:00.:30:04.

parties could put a spoke in the wheels there but we have to spot --

:30:04.:30:09.

start somewhere. Adam, you are a constitutional expert. What do you

:30:09.:30:13.

think about the Government coming out with their expert tomorrow? How

:30:14.:30:18.

do you think this place out with voters? My expert versus your

:30:18.:30:27.

expert. I did not see any expert in the Scottish Government report this

:30:27.:30:32.

week. What we will see on Monday is a full legal analysis of where we

:30:32.:30:37.

are in terms of Scotland's institution now and where we would

:30:37.:30:41.

be in the future if Scotland votes for independence. In this respect,

:30:41.:30:46.

the UK Government is doing exactly what it was told to do by the

:30:46.:30:49.

Electoral Commission in its report a couple of weeks ago where except

:30:49.:30:51.

those governments should come together and talk as clearly as

:30:51.:30:57.

they possibly can about the consequences of the decision that

:30:57.:31:03.

we in Scotland will take in 2014, and whether we vote "yes" or "no".

:31:03.:31:07.

What will happen next. And the reason I was so angry at what the

:31:07.:31:10.

Scottish Government published this week is because they might win, and

:31:10.:31:16.

if they win, they are going to have to negotiate hard with the rest of

:31:16.:31:21.

the UK and the rest of the EU. If the 16th flimsy pages they

:31:21.:31:25.

published this week is the best they can do, we are in real, deep

:31:25.:31:33.

trouble. Would you regard it as 16 flimsy pages, Murray? It is a

:31:33.:31:35.

statement of the Scottish Government's position. Their

:31:35.:31:40.

difficulty is this, that the more of their hand they show early, the

:31:40.:31:46.

more it will be attacked, and pigs and misrepresented, so although I

:31:46.:31:51.

understand Adam's anxiety that the negotiations, I doubt that that

:31:51.:31:55.

will be the case. What I do see is that there is quite a lot of

:31:55.:32:02.

political... Quite a lot of political ill-will and name-calling

:32:02.:32:05.

as there has been throughout my entire lifetime about nationalism,

:32:05.:32:09.

and it is important to ensure that you do not put everything out on

:32:09.:32:14.

the table so it can depicts part of by better resourced governments,

:32:14.:32:19.

better resourced media throughout the UK long before the vote.

:32:19.:32:26.

other issue. The front page, SNP asleep on drop over horse meat.

:32:26.:32:35.

Let's not get into the issues. But a fairly gruesome topic for the

:32:35.:32:42.

public. I am sure it is a rather political topic for the public. But

:32:42.:32:52.
:32:52.:32:54.

I see everything through the eyes of a constitutional lawyer. Food

:32:54.:32:59.

Standards is an issue whinges the shared responsibility of the UK and

:32:59.:33:04.

Scottish governments. -- the witches. This is an instance where

:33:04.:33:09.

we are better together. The food goes across our border. And this is

:33:09.:33:13.

an instance where, if Richard Lochhead had not co-operated with

:33:13.:33:17.

the UK Government, we would have had the press saying that the SNP

:33:17.:33:23.

get nothing for consumers in Carlisle. Thank you buys very much.

:33:23.:33:29.

Political magazine presented by Andrew Neil and Isabel Fraser.


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