Browse content similar to 19/05/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Sunday Politics. Downing Street is at war with Fleet Street this | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
morning. The co-chairman of the Tory party | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
denies describing activists as "mad, swivel-eyed loons" as reported by | :00:45. | :00:55. | |
:00:55. | :00:56. | ||
the Times, Telegraph and Mirror. That is our top story. | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
A large part of the Conservative party would give the EU nil point. | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
But what is the Liberal Democrat's Eurovision? The Chief Secretary to | :01:02. | :01:07. | |
the Treasury, Danny Alexander, joins us for the Sunday interview. | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
Could we have joint Conservative UKIP candidates at the next | :01:09. | :01:15. | |
election? Downing Street has rejected the idea. Some of the | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
party's backbenchers favour ia deal. Two MPs with opposing views go head | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
to head. And coming up on Sunday Politics | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
Scotland: as of this man wants a cut in immigration, the Scottish | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
government tells us restrictive policies hold us back. The UK | :01:29. | :01:39. | |
:01:39. | :01:39. | ||
Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1869 seconds | :01:39. | :32:48. | |
and not say, if you like, UKIP, you can vote for us anyway. If you | :32:48. | :32:53. | |
don't have his arrangements with UKIP that you like, it late -- | :32:53. | :32:58. | |
makes victory for your party in 2015 less likely? The lesson of the | :32:58. | :33:04. | |
1980s, it you split one wing of politics, the other wing wins would | :33:04. | :33:09. | |
be majorities. UKIP voters in opinion polls say 70% of them | :33:09. | :33:19. | |
:33:19. | :33:20. | ||
otherwise would have been conservative. 70% of the UKIP | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
voters are identify a bleak otherwise conservative. UKIP is | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
reaching out to some Thatcherite Conservatives that the party has | :33:27. | :33:33. | |
not been able to reach recently. Are the Conservatives who want to | :33:33. | :33:40. | |
do a deal with UKIP, on vague the swivel-eyed, loons, Mr Cameron's | :33:40. | :33:45. | |
allies has supposedly been talking about? I am not abusing my | :33:45. | :33:52. | |
colleagues. We are colleagues and Brad Conservatives. Do you see any | :33:52. | :33:58. | |
swivel-eyed, loons among your party activists at times? When we fall | :33:58. | :34:03. | |
out, we do use personal attacks against each other, but we are all | :34:03. | :34:07. | |
Conservatives and we should all be out there working for Conservative | :34:07. | :34:14. | |
Government. Are you one of the swivel-eyed, loons? I am close to | :34:14. | :34:18. | |
Conservative associations. I have addressed over 50 of them and I am | :34:18. | :34:24. | |
often in agreement with them. The reason I am in Parliament, is | :34:24. | :34:29. | |
because I believe in it. I believe in Conservative principles which | :34:29. | :34:34. | |
the wonderful activists and members of our party do. They have stuck | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
with us through difficult times and deserve the greatest respect, | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
admiration and support. You will know from the east the by-election | :34:42. | :34:46. | |
and local elections, many people who had previously voted | :34:46. | :34:51. | |
Conservative on now voting UKIP. It you want them back, you have to do | :34:51. | :34:58. | |
something along the lines... Many people we want to vote Conservative | :34:58. | :35:03. | |
of voting UKIP. UKIP are able to take votes from other parties, | :35:03. | :35:11. | |
because the political debate is not about the issues regarding people | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
who determined elections. We need to get out there and tell people we | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
are dealing with immigration, we are dealing with welfare and then | :35:19. | :35:26. | |
people have a positive reason to vote for us. Is it not a risk that | :35:26. | :35:32. | |
if you go down the road that you would like to go down, you | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
detoxified the conservative brand? You have become a backward looking, | :35:37. | :35:42. | |
a right-wing party again? I always thought the idea of a toxic Tory | :35:42. | :35:47. | |
party was nonsense. It showed a lack of confidence in our basic | :35:47. | :35:52. | |
principles. What is exciting about the possibility of reuniting the | :35:52. | :35:58. | |
right, in local elections, on a national level, 48% would have | :35:58. | :36:04. | |
voted for two right wing parties. In South Shields Riggott between | :36:04. | :36:12. | |
two right wing parties, 35% of the vote. That is up on the levels | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
Margaret Thatcher was getting. Gay marriage coming up in the | :36:16. | :36:21. | |
Commons next week. How will you vote? I had not decided. I had | :36:21. | :36:26. | |
never been so conflicted about a piece of legislation. I have always | :36:26. | :36:32. | |
been in favour of equality. have got to make up your mind. | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
conflicted because I am in favour of a quality, but that bill is a | :36:36. | :36:42. | |
mess. How are you going to vote? am a Roman Catholic and I believe | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
it is the right of the Church to define marriage, not the right of | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
the state. I shall vote in accordance with the Roman Catholic | :36:50. | :36:57. | |
Whip. Are you taking your whip from the Pope? On this matter, I am | :36:57. | :37:04. | |
forced up isn't that treason, a reparation it has not been treason | :37:05. | :37:12. | |
since 1989. I did not realise that Act covered you. Thanks to both of | :37:12. | :37:13. | |
useful stop useful stop | :37:13. | :37:14. | |
useful stop You're watching the Sunday Politics. | :37:14. | :37:24. | |
:37:24. | :37:28. | ||
Coming up on the programme: this man's visit to Scotland certainly | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
had an impact. His views on immigration have impacted on | :37:32. | :37:34. | |
Westminster that the Scottish government say those restrictive | :37:34. | :37:36. | |
policies harm our economy. Yes to independence can unleash the | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
potential of the tourism and creative industries, a less rosy | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
picture of Scotland's economy under independence is being painted by the | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
UK Government. Fighting the fight with all their | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
might - Kirk ministers gather for a crucial decision on gay clergy - | :37:49. | :37:51. | |
which side will be the church triumphant? Presbyterianism is prone | :37:51. | :38:01. | |
:38:01. | :38:05. | ||
to people kind of leaving on points leaving on points of principle and | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
points of who visit and splintering. I hope we do not have that | :38:08. | :38:18. | |
situation. Restrictive immigration policies are | :38:18. | :38:20. | |
holding back Scotland's economy - the Scottish government have told | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
us. The comments were made by the External Affairs Minister Humza | :38:23. | :38:29. | |
Yousaf as he hit out at Westminster's approach. But is there | :38:29. | :38:31. | |
really support for more migration? Our political correspondent, Niall | :38:31. | :38:37. | |
O'Gallagher, has more. My government will bring forward a bill that | :38:37. | :38:42. | |
further reforms written's immigration system, the bill will | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
ensure that this country attracts people who will contribute and | :38:47. | :38:55. | |
deters those who will not. That was the message delivered by the Queen | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
as the government tried to put on a brave face after gains for UKIP in | :38:58. | :39:03. | |
the local elections. In Glasgow this week Gordon Brown accused the | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
Conservatives of pandering to pressure from the right-wing. Driven | :39:06. | :39:13. | |
by UKIP, as you know, a party that was once pro-Europe is no | :39:13. | :39:23. | |
:39:23. | :39:24. | ||
anti-Europe. Our party is now becoming power light on immigration. | :39:24. | :39:27. | |
A Scottish minister with responsibility for immigration IDs. | :39:27. | :39:33. | |
There is no doubt the restrictive policies are damaging Scotland's | :39:33. | :39:36. | |
economy and the message that Scotland is open to those who come | :39:36. | :39:41. | |
from overseas to make a skilled contribution to Scotland. | :39:41. | :39:47. | |
Restrictive immigration policies are one of the only policies which unite | :39:47. | :39:53. | |
Scottish policies, the trade unions, the universities, the cos they all | :39:53. | :40:00. | |
feel the impact of the restrictive policies of the UK Government. | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
is there support for a more liberal approach to immigration north of the | :40:03. | :40:10. | |
border? There is some evidence that in Scotland attitudes towards | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
immigration are somewhat more tolerant or welcoming. I stress | :40:13. | :40:19. | |
somewhat. We still find a majority of opinion favours less immigration | :40:19. | :40:24. | |
than current levels. We do find a difference between Scotland and the | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
rest of the UK. Nigel Farage came to Edinburgh on Thursday hoping to get | :40:28. | :40:34. | |
a heat -- the Hague -- healing for his tougher approach. We heard these | :40:34. | :40:41. | |
arguments in England ten or 15 years ago to help the economy. We now have | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
hundreds of thousands of youngsters in England unemployed, try set of | :40:45. | :40:50. | |
jobs, immigration can be a very good thing for the economy, but it needs | :40:50. | :40:56. | |
to be controlled. The UKIP message was drowned out by antiracism | :40:56. | :41:03. | |
testers on the Royal Mile. Arguments are Scots are more liberal with the | :41:03. | :41:07. | |
racism remains a problem. The various social attitude surveys have | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
been done with people in Scotland and indicate that Scotland have a | :41:11. | :41:20. | |
more liberal attitude towards immigration and foreigners, this is | :41:20. | :41:24. | |
praised among Scottish officials and the wider population and we should | :41:24. | :41:29. | |
be proud of that. However, it lies what I hear from the grassroots, | :41:29. | :41:35. | |
from immigrants and migrants who are here. The Scottish government says | :41:35. | :41:37. | |
independence is the only way to get an immigration policy suited towards | :41:38. | :41:44. | |
Scottish needs. Independent or not, can Scotland and England have two | :41:44. | :41:48. | |
different approaches well the border remains open? With me here in the | :41:48. | :41:51. | |
studio now is Patrick Harvie, co-convener of the Scottish Green | :41:51. | :41:53. | |
Party and in Aberdeen, Alex Johnstone the Scottish Conservative | :41:53. | :42:02. | |
MSP for north-east Scotland. Good morning. Thank you for joining me. | :42:02. | :42:04. | |
The immigration minister could not join us for the discussion this | :42:04. | :42:10. | |
morning. He did tell us we were bringing immigration back under | :42:10. | :42:15. | |
control while introducing the means to attract the best and brightest to | :42:15. | :42:19. | |
our shores. With the Clandown announced in the Queen's speech, how | :42:19. | :42:25. | |
much is the UK Government dancing to the tune of UKIP on this policy? We | :42:25. | :42:30. | |
are clearly seen the UK Government do what is best for the economy of | :42:30. | :42:38. | |
the United Kingdom. We benefit hugely from Eastern European | :42:38. | :42:43. | |
immigration, we have managed to overcome the problem of labour | :42:43. | :42:46. | |
shortages. We have managed to avoid the problem which has been | :42:46. | :42:51. | |
highlighted south of the border, where there has been apparently | :42:51. | :42:56. | |
emigration based on the benefits system. We do not want to see that | :42:56. | :43:00. | |
in Scotland. There is a need to tighten up in some areas but the | :43:00. | :43:06. | |
government have the right attitude to immigration. UKIP are suggesting | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
a five-year freeze on emigration for permanent settlement until UK | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
Borders have been brought into control, but with UKIP in this | :43:14. | :43:22. | |
dynamic there is a race and the UK Government are pandering to them? | :43:22. | :43:26. | |
The UK Government will not take that approach. The idea of seizing | :43:26. | :43:32. | |
emigration would wipe out so many Scottish companies who are desperate | :43:32. | :43:37. | |
to find a reliable workforce. I speak to people in the north-east | :43:37. | :43:40. | |
everyday who have businesses based on an Eastern European workforce and | :43:40. | :43:47. | |
without then they would not have a company. Nigel Farage has hit a | :43:47. | :43:52. | |
nerve down south, hasn't he? He has tacked into something which is an | :43:52. | :43:58. | |
apparent issue. If we had the same levels of immigration in Scotland, | :43:58. | :44:03. | |
voters would be expressing the same concerns, wouldn't be? I have | :44:03. | :44:10. | |
canvassed in Scotland and with Mike colleagues in England as well, it is | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
clear to me there is a degree of hostility which exists in some parts | :44:14. | :44:20. | |
of England towards immigration and immigrants. This does not exist here | :44:20. | :44:26. | |
or not to the same degree. We can debate whether people like the | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
absurd Nigel Farage have whipped that up or whether newspapers have | :44:29. | :44:33. | |
whipped that up or whether successive UK governments have | :44:33. | :44:40. | |
whipped that up for political ends. But the reality is that that degree | :44:40. | :44:44. | |
of hostility which can find south of the border in some places does not | :44:44. | :44:50. | |
exist in Scotland to Civic Centre. It is really important we do not | :44:50. | :44:55. | |
carry on the debate that Nigel Farage would like us to have. -- to | :44:55. | :45:01. | |
the same extent. Is that not because we have not seen the same impact on | :45:01. | :45:07. | |
services here? We saw in the report that Scots are only somewhat more | :45:07. | :45:14. | |
tolerant. I have not seen the specific questions that that | :45:14. | :45:18. | |
research asked people. I think most politicians I have spoken to Wood | :45:18. | :45:26. | |
agreed with the judgement that there is a degree of hostility, not just | :45:26. | :45:31. | |
about ticking boxes but how concerned people are and how that | :45:31. | :45:37. | |
concern expresses itself. If we are concerned about the impact on | :45:37. | :45:47. | |
:45:47. | :45:49. | ||
employment and whether people are able to get a job in Scotland, we | :45:50. | :45:53. | |
should be talking about issues like the living wage. When employers go | :45:53. | :45:57. | |
for the cheapest possible Libra, we should look at the lawyers rather | :45:57. | :46:02. | |
than immigration. In Scotland we appear to be more fear, that is a | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
point mentioned, does that mean we are better than the English, that is | :46:07. | :46:10. | |
what it sounds like there's Mike know, we have a clear sense of | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
social sussed -- social justice. That is not to say we get everything | :46:14. | :46:20. | |
right. We would be making a serious mistake to imagine there is room on | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
the political spectrum for the kind of caricature sideshow that UKIP or | :46:24. | :46:32. | |
first. Alex Johnstone, you are sitting in Aberdeen, as the team | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
booming, needing skilled workers from all over the world, you spoke | :46:36. | :46:44. | |
about examples bear of skilled migrant workers, do you not agree | :46:44. | :46:48. | |
with the point that universities and businesses really need those skilled | :46:48. | :46:53. | |
migrants coming in and your colleagues in the UK Government are | :46:53. | :47:01. | |
holding Scotland backed by restrictive policies? We have a | :47:01. | :47:04. | |
strange position in Scotland. We have some areas of serious welfare | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
dependency and we have regions like Aberdeen and the north-east where | :47:08. | :47:13. | |
there are two jobs for every job-seeker. The fact that one region | :47:13. | :47:18. | |
does not feed into the other is a serious concern. I think that | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
Scotland's and the rest of the British hold similar attitudes. The | :47:22. | :47:25. | |
only reason we see a different expression of that in Scotland is | :47:25. | :47:30. | |
that we have not had the experience of people coming in in large numbers | :47:30. | :47:36. | |
simply to take advantage of the benefits system. If we did see that | :47:36. | :47:40. | |
in Scotland, public opinion would change radically. That is what we | :47:40. | :47:45. | |
have two defend against. Tight regulation is important but we must | :47:45. | :47:50. | |
make sure we can bring in the people we need to satisfy business demands. | :47:51. | :47:59. | |
The UK Government are not proposing regulation of emigration. | :47:59. | :48:03. | |
proposed for landlords not to be allowed to let tenancies to people, | :48:03. | :48:09. | |
it is for doctors not to treat people on the NHS. Or even having a | :48:09. | :48:13. | |
debate in the UK Government about whether to ban the children of | :48:13. | :48:18. | |
immigrants to schools. That is a punitive approach for people already | :48:18. | :48:23. | |
here. It is not regulation of those who wish to come. A punitive | :48:23. | :48:28. | |
approach? That is an oversimplification of the | :48:28. | :48:33. | |
situation. None of these restrictions can apply to EU | :48:33. | :48:38. | |
citizens so EU immigrants are free from these restrictions. Anyone who | :48:38. | :48:42. | |
comes here legally and appropriately will be offered all the protections | :48:42. | :48:47. | |
that this country has. There are perhaps a handful of people out here | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
who may choose to enter this country illegally who may find themselves at | :48:51. | :48:56. | |
a disadvantage, but the bad majority of people out there support that | :48:56. | :49:01. | |
kind of fine tuning to the system. Patrick Harvie, you want this | :49:02. | :49:07. | |
different approach. In the report we picked up on Scotland having a | :49:07. | :49:13. | |
different approach, you advocate independence, we would probably | :49:13. | :49:19. | |
still had to rely on agreements with the UK Government, would we not? We | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
would have took what great with Ireland and the rest of the UK. We | :49:23. | :49:29. | |
would at least be in a position to negotiate an agreement. Even if the | :49:29. | :49:32. | |
Scottish and UK government were dominated by the same political | :49:32. | :49:42. | |
party, like Labour. Even then, when Jack McConnell as first Minister | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
wanted flexibility for Scotland to meet our own needs in immigration | :49:46. | :49:52. | |
system, he did not get it. It is unlikely to see a situation where a | :49:52. | :49:58. | |
Scottish Government whether it's the same party of different parties | :49:58. | :50:04. | |
running the show, will be able to reflect any degree of control to | :50:04. | :50:06. | |
meet the needs of Scottish universities, businesses and | :50:07. | :50:12. | |
communities. Under independence could we get that degree of | :50:12. | :50:17. | |
flexibility? We would not have absolute flexibility. There would | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
have to be some sort of accommodation between the | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
governments but it would be an agreement would have to sign up to | :50:23. | :50:33. | |
:50:33. | :50:40. | ||
rather than as UK Government imposing it. Unfortunately, that is | :50:40. | :50:47. | |
not how it works in the European single market. If you sign up to | :50:47. | :50:52. | |
that agreement, you agree to open up your borders. In some future | :50:52. | :50:57. | |
independent Scotland was part of the agreement, but the rest of the | :50:57. | :51:03. | |
United Kingdom was not, it would be a requirement that immigration | :51:03. | :51:09. | |
across the Scottish and English boundary was regulated. We will have | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
to leave it there. Thank you both for joining me. | :51:12. | :51:16. | |
Now, it seems at the beginning of every week there is a flurry of | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
papers from both sides of the independence debate. On Tuesday, the | :51:19. | :51:21. | |
Scottish government will highlight how independence could unleash the | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
economic power of the creative industries and tourism, for example. | :51:24. | :51:27. | |
In a less rosier picture, the UK government's paper tomorrow will | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
focus on banking - and how Scottish taxpayers could be at serious risk | :51:30. | :51:40. | |
:51:40. | :51:41. | ||
if banks went bust in an independent Scotland. Scotland's economic | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
strains and confidence will be at the heart of the Independent 's | :51:45. | :51:49. | |
argument, the Scottish government say. On Tuesday, the economic | :51:49. | :51:55. | |
strategy will focus on the possibilities of growth. In | :51:55. | :52:02. | |
particular, it focuses on the creative industries, food and drink | :52:02. | :52:09. | |
and tourism. Nicola Sturgeon said combining the powers of independence | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
with the resources of Scotland gives is every reason to be confident | :52:13. | :52:19. | |
about our ability to thrive as an independent nation. Not such | :52:19. | :52:22. | |
optimism from the United Kingdom Government, still trying to clean up | :52:22. | :52:27. | |
the mess of the banking sector. Tomorrow, the Scottish Secretary | :52:27. | :52:37. | |
:52:37. | :52:42. | ||
will be in Edinburgh to present the analysis. It says: In contrast, an | :52:42. | :52:52. | |
:52:52. | :53:00. | ||
independent Scotland would have: Let us debate those two issues now. | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
We have MSP Kenny Gibson from the SNP, who is convener of the Finance | :53:04. | :53:06. | |
Committee at Holyrood, and Ken McIntosh, Scottish Labour's finance | :53:06. | :53:16. | |
:53:16. | :53:16. | ||
spokesman. Thank you both for joining me. What is the big idea | :53:16. | :53:22. | |
behind the economy strategy from the line being released today. It | :53:22. | :53:30. | |
appears to be familiar territory. are just trying to show how positive | :53:30. | :53:34. | |
the Scottish economy as the potential of it. Through oil and | :53:34. | :53:44. | |
:53:44. | :53:44. | ||
gas, at as a income of a huge percentage of the United Kingdom | :53:44. | :53:51. | |
average. We have a huge amount of jobs in the financial sector and to | :53:51. | :53:55. | |
his. We're not just looking at the potential, but what we are achieving | :53:55. | :54:00. | |
at the moment and what more we could do with more power through | :54:00. | :54:07. | |
independence. You say you could do that in the likes of tourism, film | :54:07. | :54:12. | |
making, food and drink, the restaurant trade. But it sounds as | :54:12. | :54:17. | |
if you are an honest talking about taxbreaks, for the likes of the | :54:17. | :54:24. | |
restaurant trade. The restaurant chap who was quoted said he wanted | :54:24. | :54:29. | |
the common fisheries policy looked at again. These are difficult things | :54:29. | :54:38. | |
to 18? If you look at the European Union, most of the countries have | :54:38. | :54:46. | |
some sort of taxbreaks with relation to tourism. It is just like | :54:46. | :54:54. | |
passenger duty is important. We know it is costing the Scottish economy a | :54:54. | :55:04. | |
lot in lost revenue. But this fell sounds like tax breaks? Yes, it is, | :55:04. | :55:08. | |
but it would be possible because we would have control of the revenue | :55:08. | :55:17. | |
from the oil and gas in the North Sea. Remember, we are an unequal | :55:17. | :55:23. | |
society as the United Kingdom. sounds like a very positive | :55:23. | :55:29. | |
argument. I am not against local control. The whole point of devil | :55:29. | :55:33. | |
you should want to do that. There is a strong argument to seeing that | :55:33. | :55:41. | |
more power should be evident to the cities, like Edinburgh and Alaska. | :55:41. | :55:45. | |
They are very dynamic sectors of the economy. Maybe we should be giving | :55:45. | :55:51. | |
them more control to push the country along. But you put your | :55:51. | :55:55. | |
finger on what controls they are talking about. I think the Scottish | :55:55. | :56:05. | |
National party is talking about tax cuts. I do not shear the view as | :56:05. | :56:11. | |
Scotland as a tax haven. I am agitated that the likes of Amazon | :56:11. | :56:19. | |
yet taxbreaks to come here and put workers here out of work. That is | :56:19. | :56:26. | |
claim and counterclaim in this. The Scottish government talk about tax | :56:26. | :56:30. | |
and how much we contribute, but what it did not say was how much we get | :56:30. | :56:37. | |
to spend. I have heard a lot of SNP arguments about this, but they tend | :56:37. | :56:43. | |
to come back to oil. The tent to assume that oil wealth fund all | :56:44. | :56:51. | |
these extra benefits. But we have two balance the economy. I agree | :56:51. | :56:57. | |
about the view of the socially just Scotland, but you cannot just cut | :56:57. | :57:05. | |
tax cut value added tax. There needs to be a balance. This is the rosy | :57:05. | :57:10. | |
picture of an independent Scotland. But you have seen the United Kingdom | :57:10. | :57:14. | |
Government talking about banking. The passing Scotland could not | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
afford the banking crisis that we saw in the likes of Iceland and | :57:18. | :57:24. | |
Cyprus. The banking sector would simply be too big. That is complete | :57:24. | :57:31. | |
nonsense. It lacks total credibility. Only today in the | :57:31. | :57:40. | |
Sunday Times, a former managing director of direct line said that | :57:40. | :57:46. | |
lacks credibility and has not seriously analyse the Scottish | :57:46. | :57:55. | |
economy. But surely has analysed the Scottish economy? It showed how big | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
the banking sector was here in relation to the rest of the United | :57:58. | :58:06. | |
Kingdom. London is the biggest financial centre in the world, which | :58:06. | :58:12. | |
is why we had the likes of the banking crisis centred on here and | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
in the United States. But this is the same nonsense that we saw in | :58:16. | :58:23. | |
1970. Denis Healey in the 1970s has admitted that he lied about the | :58:23. | :58:29. | |
Scottish oil raver revenues so that it would have an impact on the | :58:29. | :58:38. | |
independence referendum. What we are seeing is the same tactic what we | :58:38. | :58:42. | |
want is the Treasury to engage positively with Scotland. It is not | :58:42. | :58:52. | |
:58:52. | :58:53. | ||
neutral. These comments have been rubbished here by Kenny Gibson. What | :58:53. | :58:58. | |
is your reaction? I think it is important that everyone gets hold of | :58:58. | :59:04. | |
all the information so they make their own decision. This is the | :59:04. | :59:09. | |
future of the country. If we get it wrong, there is no going back. We | :59:09. | :59:12. | |
need to know the detail. We need to think about the things that will | :59:13. | :59:22. | |
:59:23. | :59:24. | ||
change. The Scottish National party wants to protect this idea that come | :59:24. | :59:29. | |
independence, things will change, but nothing will really change. That | :59:29. | :59:34. | |
is not true. Things will really change. We have to look at all | :59:34. | :59:41. | |
aspects of the economy. Take pensions, which talk about the fact | :59:41. | :59:45. | |
that most pensions are paid out of current revenue and income, so | :59:45. | :59:51. | |
therefore if you have a bigger pool of income, you have less risk. | :59:51. | :59:56. | |
finance secretary said that the same banking collapse could not happen he | :59:56. | :00:02. | |
here now. Because of new regulations. I have heard so many | :00:02. | :00:05. | |
guarantees about what will not happen in the future. Nobody can | :00:05. | :00:15. | |
:00:15. | :00:16. | ||
guarantee these things. And letters remember, he produced a paper for | :00:16. | :00:19. | |
his colleagues which was very different from that. | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
You are watching Sunday Politics Scotland from the BBC. We are | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
heading to the news now, but coming up after that, we are looking at the | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
ordination of gay clergy. The General Assembly of the Church | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
Scotland is meeting in Edinburgh just now. They will vote on the | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
issue tomorrow. Let us cross to London now for the latest update | :00:35. | :00:45. | |
:00:45. | :01:11. | ||
from Maxine Mawhinney and Reporting was telling Parliament why he had | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
quit the government, because he disagreed strongly with the then | :01:14. | :01:21. | |
Prime Minister of Europe. Now, 23 years on, he is attacking another | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
prime minister from his party over their relationship with the European | :01:26. | :01:36. | |
:01:36. | :01:36. | ||
Union. He said that David Cameron is negotiation has opened a Pandora's | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
box and that the party is now running scared from the backbenchers | :01:39. | :01:49. | |
:01:49. | :01:50. | ||
of the party. If there is of the referendum was to suggest that we | :01:50. | :01:58. | |
were to leave the European Union it would be of grave consequence. | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
has been a week where the Conservatives appear to obsess over | :02:01. | :02:09. | |
Europe. Then, over 100 of its own members of Parliament voted against | :02:09. | :02:17. | |
the party. Everyone is saying it is in meltdown now. At the top, one | :02:17. | :02:22. | |
senior minister said they were in agreement. The policy issue is, do | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
we need to do something to make our relationship with Europe from? | :02:25. | :02:33. | |
Ansar to that is yes. David Cameron has promised to renegotiate the | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
terms of membership. There is pressure on him to hurry up. We want | :02:37. | :02:43. | |
to get on with it. We think the new relationship has to be based on | :02:43. | :02:49. | |
trade. It cannot be based on common government. So, the then Minister is | :02:49. | :02:57. | |
caught between the old guard and a new inpatient group of MPs. A former | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
employee of Internet giant Google is providing evidence to the tax | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
authorities about how the company avoided paying corporation tax in | :03:06. | :03:13. | |
Britain by using offices in Dublin to finalise contracts. He claims | :03:13. | :03:20. | |
that at that time, some deals were completed in Britain. Google said it | :03:20. | :03:26. | |
cannot comment on specific allegations by CV comply fully with | :03:26. | :03:32. | |
United Kingdom tax law. The funeral will take place today of the | :03:32. | :03:40. | |
colleague of Imran can do was shot dead on the eve of the rerun of the | :03:40. | :03:45. | |
recent election. The police are investigating whether it was | :03:45. | :03:55. | |
politically motivated or the result of a botched robbery. Today, | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
comedians and Eric Morecambe are being commemorated by a blue plaque | :04:00. | :04:05. | |
at the Teddington Studios. It will be unveiled shortly by the widow of | :04:05. | :04:12. | |
Eric Morecambe. That is all the news for now. There will be more news on | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
BBC One at six o'clock. Scotland's economy is being held back by | :04:17. | :04:19. | |
restrictive immigration policies of the UK Government, according to | :04:19. | :04:24. | |
Scotland's External Affairs minister, Humza Yousaf. | :04:24. | :04:26. | |
Economic arguments both for and against Scottish independence will | :04:26. | :04:36. | |
be presented this week by the Scottish and UK governments. It is | :04:36. | :04:41. | |
one of the only policies that unites trade unions, politicians and | :04:41. | :04:43. | |
universities because they are all feeling the impact of this | :04:43. | :04:49. | |
restriction. There is some evidence that in Scotland attitudes to | :04:49. | :04:57. | |
immigration are somewhat more tolerant or welcoming. I stress, | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
somewhat. The majority of opinion in Scotland still favours less | :05:01. | :05:10. | |
:05:11. | :05:11. | ||
immigration. Economic arguments for and against independence will be put | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
forward by the Scottish and United Kingdom governments. A report for | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
the Treasury warns that the banking sector in an independent Scotland | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
would be vulnerable because the country would be less able to afford | :05:20. | :05:22. | |
bail-outs. The Scottish government will publish its own analysis, | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
supporting claims that it needs more power over economic decisions to | :05:25. | :05:27. | |
promote growth. Football now and the SPL season | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
draws to a close this afternoon, with Celtic travelling to Dundee | :05:30. | :05:32. | |
United and a Highland derby between Ross County and Inverness. Lastly, | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
St Johnstone host Motherwell, hoping for a win and for Caley Thistle to | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
drop points in the race for the final European place. | :05:39. | :05:49. | |
:05:49. | :05:57. | ||
Now the weather forecast, with this afternoon. As the temperature | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
rises this afternoon, we will see some heavy downpours in the | :06:00. | :06:06. | |
north-east in particular. The best of the sunshine and north-western | :06:06. | :06:16. | |
:06:16. | :06:28. | ||
Scotland, with top temperatures of 22 Celsius. 1560. 1843. Dates once | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
imprinted on the minds of many Scots. Great events in the life of | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
the kirk - the separation from Rome and the Great Disruption. Could | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
there be another disruption in 2013? The Church of Scotland's General | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
Assembly will tomorrow vote on the ordination of gay clergy. Laura | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
Maxwell reports on the controversial issue which threatens to split the | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
kirk. And so it begins, these are the men and women who will decide if | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
gay ministers can be ordained into the Church of Scotland. This is a | :06:51. | :06:57. | |
deeply personal subject, especially for Scott Rennie. His nomination in | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
Aberdeen four years ago brought the issue to a head. He was supported | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
then by his congregation and later by the General assembly. The wider | :07:05. | :07:13. | |
church, this is not a one-man or just one issue. The debate is about | :07:13. | :07:20. | |
the authority of Scripture. It underlies the scheme about the | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
possibility of gay and lesbian ministers, there is a battle over | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
the meaning of Scripture and whether it can be applied straightforwardly | :07:28. | :07:35. | |
to Today's problems. In 2011, the General Assembly appointed a special | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
commission to investigate both sides of the theological argument. It has | :07:38. | :07:43. | |
made no art -- recommendations, instead it offers options. One | :07:43. | :07:48. | |
approach is to support the ordination of those in civil | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
partnerships while respecting any minister or congregation's decision | :07:52. | :07:58. | |
not to accept gay minister. Down the centuries, often when the church has | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
taken a negative view of progress, it has proven to be in the wrong | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
side of history. With this issue, more and more of us accept and | :08:06. | :08:12. | |
recognise that our sexuality is something given, not a matter of | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
choice. Some ministers disagree so strongly they have left the church | :08:17. | :08:23. | |
already, including reverend Paul Gibson. The pages of Scripture have | :08:23. | :08:30. | |
such clarity on this issue, it is absolutely comprehensive in its | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
declaration that same-sex activity is something which is seen as sinful | :08:33. | :08:41. | |
by God. It is something he has the power to transform the person from | :08:41. | :08:47. | |
in belief of Jesus Christ. The General Assembly is on a tightrope. | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
On the one hand the church could appear more more done and relevant | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
and on the other it could trigger a split. This could be costly in terms | :08:55. | :09:02. | |
of the damage to the wider community and also in the courts. In June last | :09:02. | :09:08. | |
year, the minister and congregation here at St George's Tron in Glasgow | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
decided to split. Legal proceedings are now underway. In Aberdeen, the | :09:13. | :09:20. | |
congregation of this church followed suit. Speculation is rife that their | :09:20. | :09:27. | |
exodus will not be the last. What is new is the strength of feeling about | :09:27. | :09:34. | |
this. It is like Custer's last stand with the wagons circling over this | :09:34. | :09:39. | |
particular issue. That is what has given it the hate and possibility of | :09:39. | :09:47. | |
a breakaway movement. I think the two sides need to keep talking. | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
is no doubt the debate tomorrow is important but it might not be the | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
last. Even if the General Assembly vote in favour, there will still be | :09:55. | :10:01. | |
time for thought. Their decision gets passed back to the presbytery | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
till the approval and that is not automatic. Even with their blessing, | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
it will be at least 2015 before we see the ordination of openly gay men | :10:11. | :10:13. | |
and women into the Church of Scotland. | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
I'm now joined from Edinburgh by Professor Donald MacLeod, the | :10:16. | :10:18. | |
eminent Free Church theologian, Dr William Naphy from Aberdeen | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
University's history department - he has a specialist interest in kirk | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
history and the history of sexuality and with me in the studio we have | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
Stephen McGinty, who writes for the The Scotsman - frequently on the | :10:27. | :10:36. | |
subject of religion. Good afternoon. Thank you for joining me. First EU | :10:36. | :10:43. | |
Professor, what is your prediction for how this vote might call? How | :10:43. | :10:48. | |
many ministers might leave the church and go to the free Church? I | :10:48. | :10:58. | |
:10:58. | :11:01. | ||
think that a few will leave. There is no real mood, in my view, as | :11:01. | :11:07. | |
leaving the church is a very solemn business. Although the free Church | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
would welcome any of these ministers, there is also a profound | :11:12. | :11:18. | |
anti-free Church phobia which would deterrent many of those who are | :11:18. | :11:25. | |
opposed to gay ordination. We also have very different theology too | :11:25. | :11:31. | |
many of those opposed to gay ordination. Really, a split is going | :11:31. | :11:37. | |
to benefit nobody. It is important to regroup after the assembly and | :11:37. | :11:44. | |
realign in a positive way. I do not see any significance to this | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
secession and don't want to encourage it. What are your | :11:49. | :11:57. | |
predictions as to how the vote might call? I tend to think they are | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
likely to Fort to allow ordination by individual churches, so they can | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
make up the remains. I tend to agree with your first eager that secession | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
is unlikely to beat large-scale. Those that we've may find it | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
difficult to find an old tenet of home. They're unlikely want to | :12:18. | :12:24. | |
set-up as entirely independent. Professor MacLeod, it might be a | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
difficult platform for the free Church to sheer platform with | :12:27. | :12:34. | |
evangelicals who might split, you might agree about gay clergy but not | :12:34. | :12:40. | |
on other areas like progressive forms of worship for example? | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
free Church is the confessional church with a comprehensive | :12:43. | :12:52. | |
theology. While we are sympathetic towards the anti-ordination, | :12:52. | :12:57. | |
nevertheless, reluctant to encourage further chaos in Scotland in | :12:57. | :13:05. | |
ecclesiastical a. We are prepared to support those in difficulty but I do | :13:05. | :13:13. | |
not expect any large ingress to the free Church. This causes a lot of | :13:13. | :13:19. | |
pain, for example at domestic and family level. It is highly emotive | :13:19. | :13:28. | |
and the distress involved in leaving our congregation is considerable. | :13:28. | :13:34. | |
All these things have a huge emotional cost on a personal and | :13:34. | :13:40. | |
domestic family level. As we are hearing, a very turbulent time for | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
the Church of Scotland now, but how is this used in the wider world? | :13:44. | :13:50. | |
think people forget the incredible changes which are taking place in | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
society. It is on was 25 years to the day since a group of lesbians | :13:54. | :14:03. | |
broke into the BBC and hand cupped themselves to Sue Lawley's cheer. | :14:03. | :14:09. | |
They did this because the government had introduced Section 28 which | :14:09. | :14:16. | |
banned the promotion of homosexuality. Now, 25 years later | :14:16. | :14:21. | |
we are in a situation where the church of England is having to plead | :14:21. | :14:23. | |
to the government to introduce government which would prevent them | :14:23. | :14:29. | |
from having been forced to conduct gay marriages. That is a huge | :14:29. | :14:36. | |
seismic change in society. Whereas society itself, 60% of Scots believe | :14:36. | :14:42. | |
gay marriage, which has gone up from 40% a decade ago. They believe the | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
church should move at the time but people forget the essence of a | :14:46. | :14:52. | |
church might be a conservative unit. It believes it stands separate | :14:52. | :14:58. | |
from society and is more cautious about accepting these things. | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
Interesting points there, the church was in step with state and those two | :15:03. | :15:08. | |
have now broken away. It is difficult for us to remember that | :15:08. | :15:15. | |
the Church of Scotland was very progressive, it broke away from Rome | :15:15. | :15:22. | |
in 1560, that was a progressive move. The issue is to remember the | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
Kirk presents itself as a national church and that is different from | :15:26. | :15:32. | |
being a confessional, independent denominations. It has a role it | :15:32. | :15:41. | |
understands in society, as a national organisation. It | :15:41. | :15:43. | |
compensates the situation because it must not just interact with the | :15:43. | :15:50. | |
nation but respond to it. Professor MacLeod, this is a turbulent time | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
for the Church of Scotland, is this the debate about how Scripture is | :15:55. | :16:02. | |
used? Could that have been another key issue other than homosexuality | :16:02. | :16:09. | |
which could have been a crunch issue? There have been other issues | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
over ordination which led to a similar debate in the past but not | :16:12. | :16:19. | |
this crisis. It is the authority that governs the church, we can move | :16:19. | :16:24. | |
with the times. The Bible is cleared on this issue, that is no ambiguity | :16:24. | :16:32. | |
at all. That is the wider ecumenical dimension as well, the church for | :16:32. | :16:41. | |
the last millennia have also taken the view that they cannot ordain | :16:41. | :16:49. | |
those living in my relationships. The church is perfectly happy to | :16:49. | :16:58. | |
endorse and defend those rights. We all it to the gay community to live | :16:58. | :17:07. | |
their own lifestyles. The church has moved with the times in the past but | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
it seems the Presbyterian Church is relaxed about divorce. We do not | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
hear much about abortion, why is homosexuality is such a difficult | :17:16. | :17:24. | |
point? I think largely because there are certain verses in the Scripture | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
which present clarity on the issue and I would argue they are not as | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
clear as people say they are. you are right, divorce is clearly | :17:32. | :17:40. | |
taught in the Bible, but people except divorce. The attitude in | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
Presbyterianism and Protestantism is different on contraception to | :17:44. | :17:51. | |
Catholicism. I think this is just that kind of an issue for our age | :17:52. | :17:58. | |
and because it is the litmus test of a biblical authority, it is taking | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
on that kind of role. If you read the arguments about divorce and | :18:03. | :18:10. | |
contraception, they are just as divisive and brittle. The Church of | :18:10. | :18:16. | |
Scotland was a beacon, it was seen as a Parliament of Scotland for a | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
long time, is it still regarded as that and will the decision have an | :18:20. | :18:30. | |
:18:30. | :18:31. | ||
impact on wider Scotland? I think it will. Prior to the parliament, the | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
Church of Scotland spoke to the -- for the nation. If it voted | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
positively on this issue, it will be seen to be in step with civil | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
society and the views of the majority of Scots stop as a reformed | :18:44. | :18:50. | |
faith, it would send a signal as being the vanguard of social | :18:50. | :18:59. | |
change. It would send a positive signal. The key thing on this issue | :18:59. | :19:04. | |
is when will we actually CDs issues being adopt did in an orthodox | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
synagogue or a Catholic Church or a mosque and that is a long way ahead. | :19:08. | :19:15. | |
-- actually see these issues. attendance is falling in the Western | :19:15. | :19:22. | |
culture, in other areas in the world attendance is going up | :19:22. | :19:28. | |
exponentially, why is that? Date is still very important to a huge | :19:28. | :19:33. | |
number of people, and still within Scotland. Bar more people go to | :19:33. | :19:42. | |
church on Sunday or Saturday. -- far more people. People make up their | :19:42. | :19:49. | |
minds more and contribute to the ideas. Professor MacLeod, a couple | :19:49. | :19:58. | |
of interesting steps along the way before a final decision is made? The | :19:58. | :20:05. | |
barrier act prevents isolation on the part of the church. I think | :20:05. | :20:13. | |
Presbyterianism will endorse the view of the assembly. I think it | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
will back the ordination of gay clergy. I think it will delay the | :20:16. | :20:24. | |
inevitable outcome. In the meantime, they must regroup and consider where | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
they go from this point on words. I think they should refrain from | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
Priscilla to action. There has been no change in the Protestant view | :20:33. | :20:40. | |
about divorce and contraception for the last 500 years. We will have to | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
leave it there. Thank you all very much. | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
Now in a moment, we'll be discussing the big events coming up this week | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
at Holyrood, but first, let's take a look back at the Week in Sixty | :20:51. | :21:01. | |
:21:01. | :21:03. | ||
seconds. The former Prime Minister Gordon Brown returned to the | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
frontline of Scottish politics to launch the Labour campaign for | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
Scotland to remain in the United Kingdom. Cardinal Keith O'Brien will | :21:12. | :21:18. | |
leave Scotland for several months after he admitted improper sexual | :21:18. | :21:28. | |
:21:28. | :21:35. | ||
Parliament was sworn in. He took his oath in English and his native | :21:35. | :21:45. | |
:21:45. | :21:52. | ||
1400 job losses, most of them in Edinburgh. Nominations have close | :21:52. | :21:59. | |
for the by-election in Aberdeen. The election takes place on June the | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
20th. That was the week that was. Let us | :22:03. | :22:12. | |
now take a look at the week to come. With me in the studio to chew over | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
the busy week that was and what is in store next week, Mike Wade, who | :22:16. | :22:26. | |
:22:26. | :22:27. | ||
writes for The Times, and Lucy Adams of The Herald. Let us turn to the | :22:27. | :22:33. | |
two papers of the economy that are coming out. Look at this headline | :22:33. | :22:40. | |
from the Sunday express. This is a reference to the United Kingdom | :22:40. | :22:46. | |
paper coming out tomorrow. We were stealing from Kenny Gibson Elia, | :22:46. | :22:56. | |
what did you make of his argument about the banking intervention? | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
is best that people are putting something into the debate so that | :23:00. | :23:10. | |
people can think about it. In this instance, we are beating as to when | :23:10. | :23:19. | |
the Nationalists will respond to this and I expect that, quite soon. | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
The United Kingdom Government is suggesting that Scotland could not | :23:22. | :23:29. | |
survive a banking failure. Is that not the case? Until we see the paper | :23:29. | :23:39. | |
:23:39. | :23:41. | ||
from tomorrow, of course, it is open to debate, but I think it is better | :23:41. | :23:48. | |
for the Treasury to raise these issues and the Scottish Nationalists | :23:48. | :23:55. | |
have to be able to respond to this. Does this touch on a near when we | :23:55. | :24:00. | |
talk about the banking bailouts. people get nervous about the | :24:00. | :24:06. | |
possibility? The arguments are very well timed, in terms of playing on | :24:06. | :24:12. | |
the fears of people. The banking crisis was caused by a situation | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
over which the Scottish cup and did not have any control. It is a | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
dangerous game, in terms of looking at where responsibility lay in the | :24:20. | :24:28. | |
first place. The idea of this paper is to be compelling cause concern in | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
fear for those reading it, but the reality is that we do not know what | :24:31. | :24:38. | |
is to happen. A lot of it is pie in the sky. A lot of it is, if this | :24:39. | :24:44. | |
happens then this could happen. A lot of it draws comparisons with | :24:44. | :24:51. | |
Iceland and Cyprus. They are saying the capital rate of what the banks | :24:51. | :24:58. | |
hold in being similar. If there was another banking crisis, Scotland | :24:58. | :25:04. | |
would be any worse position because they have a 1000% of the capita in | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
terms of what the ankle per person in Scotland. But that is an effort | :25:09. | :25:19. | |
:25:19. | :25:21. | ||
and but scenario. That is pie in the sky. The paper is coming out | :25:21. | :25:28. | |
tomorrow. On Tuesday, the Cameron economic strategy will be released | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
by the Scottish Nationalists. It obviously paint a rosy picture. | :25:32. | :25:37. | |
Kenny Gibson was seeing it could unleash the potential of Scotland. | :25:37. | :25:44. | |
Others are suggesting it is all about tax breaks? Yes, I have tried | :25:44. | :25:50. | |
their luck at some aspects of it. There clearly is an incentive on tax | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
breaks, but we have the likes of tuners is concerned, I can | :25:54. | :26:00. | |
understand that. It could do with the likes of a boost. The likes of | :26:00. | :26:10. | |
:26:10. | :26:11. | ||
food and drink, salmon, W. As Lucy says, that is a lot of pie in the | :26:11. | :26:18. | |
sky. You have to take a lot of this on trust. There has got to be a very | :26:18. | :26:25. | |
convincing argument, which I have not quite yet seen. There seems a | :26:25. | :26:32. | |
lot of assertion that are and you have to buy into that. Perhaps the | :26:32. | :26:39. | |
make the a bigger thing on Tuesday? Yes, I think there is a sense of | :26:39. | :26:47. | |
that. The first sheet that he read fairly anodyne. It is talking about | :26:47. | :26:57. | |
:26:57. | :26:57. | ||
Scotland spend on public sectors. It is seeing it is 42% of GDP, as | :26:57. | :27:02. | |
opposed to roughly 45% in England and Wales. They are also trying to | :27:02. | :27:08. | |
say they are not a one trick pony, it is not just about oil in the | :27:08. | :27:16. | |
North Sea. They are talking about the money generated by the likes of | :27:16. | :27:21. | |
food and drink and the likes of restaurants and even whiskey | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
industry. But again, the ad again based on this idea that this could | :27:25. | :27:31. | |
happen if this thing happens. People may look at this and say this | :27:31. | :27:39. | |
research is done by the Scottish government, so how can we convinced | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
either way about either of these documents. If you're looking at | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
undecided voters, you want completely objective, which neither | :27:48. | :27:54. | |
of these papers are. You need someone to come able to say this is | :27:54. | :27:59. | |
how much we will have under independence, this is how much we | :27:59. | :28:05. | |
will not have. Just they tend to look at these headlines. This is | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
this divide in the Church of Scotland that we have just been | :28:09. | :28:14. | |
talking about. You were talking about this great debate which will | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
take place tomorrow. It will be fascinating to hear the final result | :28:18. | :28:25. | |
of this. I do not think the public really realise how fantastic these | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
debates are. They are full of passion and full of intellectual | :28:28. | :28:34. | |
debate. I think the government has stepped in to this argument quite | :28:34. | :28:42. | |
interestingly. The gay marriage proposals are different from the | :28:42. | :28:49. | |
subject up for debate tomorrow. But the church as Paul opposes gay | :28:49. | :28:54. | |
marriage. It will be interesting to see what the government intervention | :28:54. | :29:04. | |
:29:04. | :29:05. | ||
in recent times while actually alter the debate. The church could argue | :29:05. | :29:10. | |
that if they go in favour of same-sex clergy that would be the | :29:10. | :29:15. | |
first step of the way and then, inevitably, we will go towards gay | :29:15. | :29:25. | |
marriage. There is a poignant on both sides of that argument. There | :29:25. | :29:33. | |
is a four and against argument. is this debate feud in the whole of | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
Scotland, the wider Scotland? Does the Church of Scotland still have | :29:37. | :29:45. | |
any impact? I think there are roughly 500,000 people in the | :29:45. | :29:52. | |
congregation. It is falling, by about 15,000 last year. I think the | :29:52. | :29:57. | |
debate itself is going to be very tense and exciting, but as to the | :29:57. | :30:03. | |
impact on a wider Scotland, I think it will be interesting. There is a | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
slightly different debate, there is this connection between the | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
legislation going through in Holyrood regarding same-sex | :30:10. | :30:16. | |
marriage. I think about be exciting but equally whatever decision they | :30:16. | :30:22. | |
make, it will then go out to all the presbytery's Arran Scotland. It will | :30:22. | :30:32. | |
:30:32. | :30:33. | ||
not be a snap decision. The good thing is that it will be debated in | :30:33. | :30:40. | |
public. I think a lot of religious people are very unhappy about gay | :30:41. | :30:49. | |
marriage and that the date has not really had a big public forum. It is | :30:49. | :30:54. | |
an important debate for that reason. I often feel that the proponents for | :30:54. | :30:56. | |
gay marriage do not have a great deal of respect for religious | :30:57. | :31:05. | |
opinion. I think this debate will show, on both sides, and deeply this | :31:05. | :31:11. | |
issue is felt. I think that is important. On a lighter note to | :31:11. | :31:16. | |
finish with, no Liberal Democrats on the programme today. They are all on | :31:16. | :31:26. | |
:31:26. | :31:27. | ||
the Orkney Islands celebrating the birth of Joe Grimond. It is the | :31:27. | :31:32. | |
100th anniversary. The Aral celebrating the birth of the | :31:32. | :31:42. | |
:31:42. | :31:50. | ||
founding father. Hopefully, the Democrats on Orkney and Shetland are | :31:51. | :31:58. | |
proposing that they should be independent! Both of you, thank you | :31:58. | :32:07. | |
very much for joining me. That is all from the us this week. | :32:07. | :32:11. |