19/05/2013 Sunday Politics Scotland


19/05/2013

Andrew Neil and Andrew Kerr are joined by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Danny Alexander and discuss Conservative UKIP electoral pacts with Conservative MPs.


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Sunday Politics. Downing Street is at war with Fleet Street this

:00:41.:00:43.

morning. The co-chairman of the Tory party

:00:43.:00:45.

denies describing activists as "mad, swivel-eyed loons" as reported by

:00:45.:00:55.
:00:55.:00:56.

the Times, Telegraph and Mirror. That is our top story.

:00:56.:00:59.

A large part of the Conservative party would give the EU nil point.

:00:59.:01:02.

But what is the Liberal Democrat's Eurovision? The Chief Secretary to

:01:02.:01:07.

the Treasury, Danny Alexander, joins us for the Sunday interview.

:01:07.:01:09.

Could we have joint Conservative UKIP candidates at the next

:01:09.:01:15.

election? Downing Street has rejected the idea. Some of the

:01:15.:01:19.

party's backbenchers favour ia deal. Two MPs with opposing views go head

:01:19.:01:22.

to head. And coming up on Sunday Politics

:01:22.:01:26.

Scotland: as of this man wants a cut in immigration, the Scottish

:01:26.:01:29.

government tells us restrictive policies hold us back. The UK

:01:29.:01:39.
:01:39.:01:39.

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1869 seconds

:01:39.:32:48.

and not say, if you like, UKIP, you can vote for us anyway. If you

:32:48.:32:53.

don't have his arrangements with UKIP that you like, it late --

:32:53.:32:58.

makes victory for your party in 2015 less likely? The lesson of the

:32:58.:33:04.

1980s, it you split one wing of politics, the other wing wins would

:33:04.:33:09.

be majorities. UKIP voters in opinion polls say 70% of them

:33:09.:33:19.
:33:19.:33:20.

otherwise would have been conservative. 70% of the UKIP

:33:20.:33:24.

voters are identify a bleak otherwise conservative. UKIP is

:33:24.:33:27.

reaching out to some Thatcherite Conservatives that the party has

:33:27.:33:33.

not been able to reach recently. Are the Conservatives who want to

:33:33.:33:40.

do a deal with UKIP, on vague the swivel-eyed, loons, Mr Cameron's

:33:40.:33:45.

allies has supposedly been talking about? I am not abusing my

:33:45.:33:52.

colleagues. We are colleagues and Brad Conservatives. Do you see any

:33:52.:33:58.

swivel-eyed, loons among your party activists at times? When we fall

:33:58.:34:03.

out, we do use personal attacks against each other, but we are all

:34:03.:34:07.

Conservatives and we should all be out there working for Conservative

:34:07.:34:14.

Government. Are you one of the swivel-eyed, loons? I am close to

:34:14.:34:18.

Conservative associations. I have addressed over 50 of them and I am

:34:18.:34:24.

often in agreement with them. The reason I am in Parliament, is

:34:24.:34:29.

because I believe in it. I believe in Conservative principles which

:34:29.:34:34.

the wonderful activists and members of our party do. They have stuck

:34:34.:34:37.

with us through difficult times and deserve the greatest respect,

:34:38.:34:42.

admiration and support. You will know from the east the by-election

:34:42.:34:46.

and local elections, many people who had previously voted

:34:46.:34:51.

Conservative on now voting UKIP. It you want them back, you have to do

:34:51.:34:58.

something along the lines... Many people we want to vote Conservative

:34:58.:35:03.

of voting UKIP. UKIP are able to take votes from other parties,

:35:03.:35:11.

because the political debate is not about the issues regarding people

:35:11.:35:15.

who determined elections. We need to get out there and tell people we

:35:15.:35:19.

are dealing with immigration, we are dealing with welfare and then

:35:19.:35:26.

people have a positive reason to vote for us. Is it not a risk that

:35:26.:35:32.

if you go down the road that you would like to go down, you

:35:32.:35:37.

detoxified the conservative brand? You have become a backward looking,

:35:37.:35:42.

a right-wing party again? I always thought the idea of a toxic Tory

:35:42.:35:47.

party was nonsense. It showed a lack of confidence in our basic

:35:47.:35:52.

principles. What is exciting about the possibility of reuniting the

:35:52.:35:58.

right, in local elections, on a national level, 48% would have

:35:58.:36:04.

voted for two right wing parties. In South Shields Riggott between

:36:04.:36:12.

two right wing parties, 35% of the vote. That is up on the levels

:36:12.:36:16.

Margaret Thatcher was getting. Gay marriage coming up in the

:36:16.:36:21.

Commons next week. How will you vote? I had not decided. I had

:36:21.:36:26.

never been so conflicted about a piece of legislation. I have always

:36:26.:36:32.

been in favour of equality. have got to make up your mind.

:36:32.:36:36.

conflicted because I am in favour of a quality, but that bill is a

:36:36.:36:42.

mess. How are you going to vote? am a Roman Catholic and I believe

:36:42.:36:46.

it is the right of the Church to define marriage, not the right of

:36:46.:36:50.

the state. I shall vote in accordance with the Roman Catholic

:36:50.:36:57.

Whip. Are you taking your whip from the Pope? On this matter, I am

:36:57.:37:04.

forced up isn't that treason, a reparation it has not been treason

:37:05.:37:12.

since 1989. I did not realise that Act covered you. Thanks to both of

:37:12.:37:13.

useful stop useful stop

:37:13.:37:14.

useful stop You're watching the Sunday Politics.

:37:14.:37:24.
:37:24.:37:28.

Coming up on the programme: this man's visit to Scotland certainly

:37:28.:37:32.

had an impact. His views on immigration have impacted on

:37:32.:37:34.

Westminster that the Scottish government say those restrictive

:37:34.:37:36.

policies harm our economy. Yes to independence can unleash the

:37:36.:37:39.

potential of the tourism and creative industries, a less rosy

:37:39.:37:42.

picture of Scotland's economy under independence is being painted by the

:37:42.:37:46.

UK Government. Fighting the fight with all their

:37:46.:37:49.

might - Kirk ministers gather for a crucial decision on gay clergy -

:37:49.:37:51.

which side will be the church triumphant? Presbyterianism is prone

:37:51.:38:01.
:38:01.:38:05.

to people kind of leaving on points leaving on points of principle and

:38:05.:38:08.

points of who visit and splintering. I hope we do not have that

:38:08.:38:18.

situation. Restrictive immigration policies are

:38:18.:38:20.

holding back Scotland's economy - the Scottish government have told

:38:20.:38:23.

us. The comments were made by the External Affairs Minister Humza

:38:23.:38:29.

Yousaf as he hit out at Westminster's approach. But is there

:38:29.:38:31.

really support for more migration? Our political correspondent, Niall

:38:31.:38:37.

O'Gallagher, has more. My government will bring forward a bill that

:38:37.:38:42.

further reforms written's immigration system, the bill will

:38:42.:38:46.

ensure that this country attracts people who will contribute and

:38:47.:38:55.

deters those who will not. That was the message delivered by the Queen

:38:55.:38:58.

as the government tried to put on a brave face after gains for UKIP in

:38:58.:39:03.

the local elections. In Glasgow this week Gordon Brown accused the

:39:03.:39:06.

Conservatives of pandering to pressure from the right-wing. Driven

:39:06.:39:13.

by UKIP, as you know, a party that was once pro-Europe is no

:39:13.:39:23.
:39:23.:39:24.

anti-Europe. Our party is now becoming power light on immigration.

:39:24.:39:27.

A Scottish minister with responsibility for immigration IDs.

:39:27.:39:33.

There is no doubt the restrictive policies are damaging Scotland's

:39:33.:39:36.

economy and the message that Scotland is open to those who come

:39:36.:39:41.

from overseas to make a skilled contribution to Scotland.

:39:41.:39:47.

Restrictive immigration policies are one of the only policies which unite

:39:47.:39:53.

Scottish policies, the trade unions, the universities, the cos they all

:39:53.:40:00.

feel the impact of the restrictive policies of the UK Government.

:40:00.:40:03.

is there support for a more liberal approach to immigration north of the

:40:03.:40:10.

border? There is some evidence that in Scotland attitudes towards

:40:10.:40:13.

immigration are somewhat more tolerant or welcoming. I stress

:40:13.:40:19.

somewhat. We still find a majority of opinion favours less immigration

:40:19.:40:24.

than current levels. We do find a difference between Scotland and the

:40:24.:40:28.

rest of the UK. Nigel Farage came to Edinburgh on Thursday hoping to get

:40:28.:40:34.

a heat -- the Hague -- healing for his tougher approach. We heard these

:40:34.:40:41.

arguments in England ten or 15 years ago to help the economy. We now have

:40:41.:40:45.

hundreds of thousands of youngsters in England unemployed, try set of

:40:45.:40:50.

jobs, immigration can be a very good thing for the economy, but it needs

:40:50.:40:56.

to be controlled. The UKIP message was drowned out by antiracism

:40:56.:41:03.

testers on the Royal Mile. Arguments are Scots are more liberal with the

:41:03.:41:07.

racism remains a problem. The various social attitude surveys have

:41:07.:41:11.

been done with people in Scotland and indicate that Scotland have a

:41:11.:41:20.

more liberal attitude towards immigration and foreigners, this is

:41:20.:41:24.

praised among Scottish officials and the wider population and we should

:41:24.:41:29.

be proud of that. However, it lies what I hear from the grassroots,

:41:29.:41:35.

from immigrants and migrants who are here. The Scottish government says

:41:35.:41:37.

independence is the only way to get an immigration policy suited towards

:41:38.:41:44.

Scottish needs. Independent or not, can Scotland and England have two

:41:44.:41:48.

different approaches well the border remains open? With me here in the

:41:48.:41:51.

studio now is Patrick Harvie, co-convener of the Scottish Green

:41:51.:41:53.

Party and in Aberdeen, Alex Johnstone the Scottish Conservative

:41:53.:42:02.

MSP for north-east Scotland. Good morning. Thank you for joining me.

:42:02.:42:04.

The immigration minister could not join us for the discussion this

:42:04.:42:10.

morning. He did tell us we were bringing immigration back under

:42:10.:42:15.

control while introducing the means to attract the best and brightest to

:42:15.:42:19.

our shores. With the Clandown announced in the Queen's speech, how

:42:19.:42:25.

much is the UK Government dancing to the tune of UKIP on this policy? We

:42:25.:42:30.

are clearly seen the UK Government do what is best for the economy of

:42:30.:42:38.

the United Kingdom. We benefit hugely from Eastern European

:42:38.:42:43.

immigration, we have managed to overcome the problem of labour

:42:43.:42:46.

shortages. We have managed to avoid the problem which has been

:42:46.:42:51.

highlighted south of the border, where there has been apparently

:42:51.:42:56.

emigration based on the benefits system. We do not want to see that

:42:56.:43:00.

in Scotland. There is a need to tighten up in some areas but the

:43:00.:43:06.

government have the right attitude to immigration. UKIP are suggesting

:43:06.:43:10.

a five-year freeze on emigration for permanent settlement until UK

:43:10.:43:14.

Borders have been brought into control, but with UKIP in this

:43:14.:43:22.

dynamic there is a race and the UK Government are pandering to them?

:43:22.:43:26.

The UK Government will not take that approach. The idea of seizing

:43:26.:43:32.

emigration would wipe out so many Scottish companies who are desperate

:43:32.:43:37.

to find a reliable workforce. I speak to people in the north-east

:43:37.:43:40.

everyday who have businesses based on an Eastern European workforce and

:43:40.:43:47.

without then they would not have a company. Nigel Farage has hit a

:43:47.:43:52.

nerve down south, hasn't he? He has tacked into something which is an

:43:52.:43:58.

apparent issue. If we had the same levels of immigration in Scotland,

:43:58.:44:03.

voters would be expressing the same concerns, wouldn't be? I have

:44:03.:44:10.

canvassed in Scotland and with Mike colleagues in England as well, it is

:44:10.:44:14.

clear to me there is a degree of hostility which exists in some parts

:44:14.:44:20.

of England towards immigration and immigrants. This does not exist here

:44:20.:44:26.

or not to the same degree. We can debate whether people like the

:44:26.:44:29.

absurd Nigel Farage have whipped that up or whether newspapers have

:44:29.:44:33.

whipped that up or whether successive UK governments have

:44:33.:44:40.

whipped that up for political ends. But the reality is that that degree

:44:40.:44:44.

of hostility which can find south of the border in some places does not

:44:44.:44:50.

exist in Scotland to Civic Centre. It is really important we do not

:44:50.:44:55.

carry on the debate that Nigel Farage would like us to have. -- to

:44:55.:45:01.

the same extent. Is that not because we have not seen the same impact on

:45:01.:45:07.

services here? We saw in the report that Scots are only somewhat more

:45:07.:45:14.

tolerant. I have not seen the specific questions that that

:45:14.:45:18.

research asked people. I think most politicians I have spoken to Wood

:45:18.:45:26.

agreed with the judgement that there is a degree of hostility, not just

:45:26.:45:31.

about ticking boxes but how concerned people are and how that

:45:31.:45:37.

concern expresses itself. If we are concerned about the impact on

:45:37.:45:47.
:45:47.:45:49.

employment and whether people are able to get a job in Scotland, we

:45:50.:45:53.

should be talking about issues like the living wage. When employers go

:45:53.:45:57.

for the cheapest possible Libra, we should look at the lawyers rather

:45:57.:46:02.

than immigration. In Scotland we appear to be more fear, that is a

:46:02.:46:06.

point mentioned, does that mean we are better than the English, that is

:46:07.:46:10.

what it sounds like there's Mike know, we have a clear sense of

:46:10.:46:13.

social sussed -- social justice. That is not to say we get everything

:46:14.:46:20.

right. We would be making a serious mistake to imagine there is room on

:46:20.:46:24.

the political spectrum for the kind of caricature sideshow that UKIP or

:46:24.:46:32.

first. Alex Johnstone, you are sitting in Aberdeen, as the team

:46:32.:46:36.

booming, needing skilled workers from all over the world, you spoke

:46:36.:46:44.

about examples bear of skilled migrant workers, do you not agree

:46:44.:46:48.

with the point that universities and businesses really need those skilled

:46:48.:46:53.

migrants coming in and your colleagues in the UK Government are

:46:53.:47:01.

holding Scotland backed by restrictive policies? We have a

:47:01.:47:04.

strange position in Scotland. We have some areas of serious welfare

:47:04.:47:08.

dependency and we have regions like Aberdeen and the north-east where

:47:08.:47:13.

there are two jobs for every job-seeker. The fact that one region

:47:13.:47:18.

does not feed into the other is a serious concern. I think that

:47:18.:47:22.

Scotland's and the rest of the British hold similar attitudes. The

:47:22.:47:25.

only reason we see a different expression of that in Scotland is

:47:25.:47:30.

that we have not had the experience of people coming in in large numbers

:47:30.:47:36.

simply to take advantage of the benefits system. If we did see that

:47:36.:47:40.

in Scotland, public opinion would change radically. That is what we

:47:40.:47:45.

have two defend against. Tight regulation is important but we must

:47:45.:47:50.

make sure we can bring in the people we need to satisfy business demands.

:47:51.:47:59.

The UK Government are not proposing regulation of emigration.

:47:59.:48:03.

proposed for landlords not to be allowed to let tenancies to people,

:48:03.:48:09.

it is for doctors not to treat people on the NHS. Or even having a

:48:09.:48:13.

debate in the UK Government about whether to ban the children of

:48:13.:48:18.

immigrants to schools. That is a punitive approach for people already

:48:18.:48:23.

here. It is not regulation of those who wish to come. A punitive

:48:23.:48:28.

approach? That is an oversimplification of the

:48:28.:48:33.

situation. None of these restrictions can apply to EU

:48:33.:48:38.

citizens so EU immigrants are free from these restrictions. Anyone who

:48:38.:48:42.

comes here legally and appropriately will be offered all the protections

:48:42.:48:47.

that this country has. There are perhaps a handful of people out here

:48:47.:48:51.

who may choose to enter this country illegally who may find themselves at

:48:51.:48:56.

a disadvantage, but the bad majority of people out there support that

:48:56.:49:01.

kind of fine tuning to the system. Patrick Harvie, you want this

:49:02.:49:07.

different approach. In the report we picked up on Scotland having a

:49:07.:49:13.

different approach, you advocate independence, we would probably

:49:13.:49:19.

still had to rely on agreements with the UK Government, would we not? We

:49:19.:49:23.

would have took what great with Ireland and the rest of the UK. We

:49:23.:49:29.

would at least be in a position to negotiate an agreement. Even if the

:49:29.:49:32.

Scottish and UK government were dominated by the same political

:49:32.:49:42.

party, like Labour. Even then, when Jack McConnell as first Minister

:49:42.:49:46.

wanted flexibility for Scotland to meet our own needs in immigration

:49:46.:49:52.

system, he did not get it. It is unlikely to see a situation where a

:49:52.:49:58.

Scottish Government whether it's the same party of different parties

:49:58.:50:04.

running the show, will be able to reflect any degree of control to

:50:04.:50:06.

meet the needs of Scottish universities, businesses and

:50:07.:50:12.

communities. Under independence could we get that degree of

:50:12.:50:17.

flexibility? We would not have absolute flexibility. There would

:50:17.:50:20.

have to be some sort of accommodation between the

:50:20.:50:23.

governments but it would be an agreement would have to sign up to

:50:23.:50:33.
:50:33.:50:40.

rather than as UK Government imposing it. Unfortunately, that is

:50:40.:50:47.

not how it works in the European single market. If you sign up to

:50:47.:50:52.

that agreement, you agree to open up your borders. In some future

:50:52.:50:57.

independent Scotland was part of the agreement, but the rest of the

:50:57.:51:03.

United Kingdom was not, it would be a requirement that immigration

:51:03.:51:09.

across the Scottish and English boundary was regulated. We will have

:51:09.:51:12.

to leave it there. Thank you both for joining me.

:51:12.:51:16.

Now, it seems at the beginning of every week there is a flurry of

:51:16.:51:19.

papers from both sides of the independence debate. On Tuesday, the

:51:19.:51:21.

Scottish government will highlight how independence could unleash the

:51:21.:51:24.

economic power of the creative industries and tourism, for example.

:51:24.:51:27.

In a less rosier picture, the UK government's paper tomorrow will

:51:27.:51:30.

focus on banking - and how Scottish taxpayers could be at serious risk

:51:30.:51:40.
:51:40.:51:41.

if banks went bust in an independent Scotland. Scotland's economic

:51:41.:51:45.

strains and confidence will be at the heart of the Independent 's

:51:45.:51:49.

argument, the Scottish government say. On Tuesday, the economic

:51:49.:51:55.

strategy will focus on the possibilities of growth. In

:51:55.:52:02.

particular, it focuses on the creative industries, food and drink

:52:02.:52:09.

and tourism. Nicola Sturgeon said combining the powers of independence

:52:09.:52:13.

with the resources of Scotland gives is every reason to be confident

:52:13.:52:19.

about our ability to thrive as an independent nation. Not such

:52:19.:52:22.

optimism from the United Kingdom Government, still trying to clean up

:52:22.:52:27.

the mess of the banking sector. Tomorrow, the Scottish Secretary

:52:27.:52:37.
:52:37.:52:42.

will be in Edinburgh to present the analysis. It says: In contrast, an

:52:42.:52:52.
:52:52.:53:00.

independent Scotland would have: Let us debate those two issues now.

:53:00.:53:03.

We have MSP Kenny Gibson from the SNP, who is convener of the Finance

:53:04.:53:06.

Committee at Holyrood, and Ken McIntosh, Scottish Labour's finance

:53:06.:53:16.
:53:16.:53:16.

spokesman. Thank you both for joining me. What is the big idea

:53:16.:53:22.

behind the economy strategy from the line being released today. It

:53:22.:53:30.

appears to be familiar territory. are just trying to show how positive

:53:30.:53:34.

the Scottish economy as the potential of it. Through oil and

:53:34.:53:44.
:53:44.:53:44.

gas, at as a income of a huge percentage of the United Kingdom

:53:44.:53:51.

average. We have a huge amount of jobs in the financial sector and to

:53:51.:53:55.

his. We're not just looking at the potential, but what we are achieving

:53:55.:54:00.

at the moment and what more we could do with more power through

:54:00.:54:07.

independence. You say you could do that in the likes of tourism, film

:54:07.:54:12.

making, food and drink, the restaurant trade. But it sounds as

:54:12.:54:17.

if you are an honest talking about taxbreaks, for the likes of the

:54:17.:54:24.

restaurant trade. The restaurant chap who was quoted said he wanted

:54:24.:54:29.

the common fisheries policy looked at again. These are difficult things

:54:29.:54:38.

to 18? If you look at the European Union, most of the countries have

:54:38.:54:46.

some sort of taxbreaks with relation to tourism. It is just like

:54:46.:54:54.

passenger duty is important. We know it is costing the Scottish economy a

:54:54.:55:04.

lot in lost revenue. But this fell sounds like tax breaks? Yes, it is,

:55:04.:55:08.

but it would be possible because we would have control of the revenue

:55:08.:55:17.

from the oil and gas in the North Sea. Remember, we are an unequal

:55:17.:55:23.

society as the United Kingdom. sounds like a very positive

:55:23.:55:29.

argument. I am not against local control. The whole point of devil

:55:29.:55:33.

you should want to do that. There is a strong argument to seeing that

:55:33.:55:41.

more power should be evident to the cities, like Edinburgh and Alaska.

:55:41.:55:45.

They are very dynamic sectors of the economy. Maybe we should be giving

:55:45.:55:51.

them more control to push the country along. But you put your

:55:51.:55:55.

finger on what controls they are talking about. I think the Scottish

:55:55.:56:05.

National party is talking about tax cuts. I do not shear the view as

:56:05.:56:11.

Scotland as a tax haven. I am agitated that the likes of Amazon

:56:11.:56:19.

yet taxbreaks to come here and put workers here out of work. That is

:56:19.:56:26.

claim and counterclaim in this. The Scottish government talk about tax

:56:26.:56:30.

and how much we contribute, but what it did not say was how much we get

:56:30.:56:37.

to spend. I have heard a lot of SNP arguments about this, but they tend

:56:37.:56:43.

to come back to oil. The tent to assume that oil wealth fund all

:56:44.:56:51.

these extra benefits. But we have two balance the economy. I agree

:56:51.:56:57.

about the view of the socially just Scotland, but you cannot just cut

:56:57.:57:05.

tax cut value added tax. There needs to be a balance. This is the rosy

:57:05.:57:10.

picture of an independent Scotland. But you have seen the United Kingdom

:57:10.:57:14.

Government talking about banking. The passing Scotland could not

:57:14.:57:18.

afford the banking crisis that we saw in the likes of Iceland and

:57:18.:57:24.

Cyprus. The banking sector would simply be too big. That is complete

:57:24.:57:31.

nonsense. It lacks total credibility. Only today in the

:57:31.:57:40.

Sunday Times, a former managing director of direct line said that

:57:40.:57:46.

lacks credibility and has not seriously analyse the Scottish

:57:46.:57:55.

economy. But surely has analysed the Scottish economy? It showed how big

:57:55.:57:58.

the banking sector was here in relation to the rest of the United

:57:58.:58:06.

Kingdom. London is the biggest financial centre in the world, which

:58:06.:58:12.

is why we had the likes of the banking crisis centred on here and

:58:12.:58:16.

in the United States. But this is the same nonsense that we saw in

:58:16.:58:23.

1970. Denis Healey in the 1970s has admitted that he lied about the

:58:23.:58:29.

Scottish oil raver revenues so that it would have an impact on the

:58:29.:58:38.

independence referendum. What we are seeing is the same tactic what we

:58:38.:58:42.

want is the Treasury to engage positively with Scotland. It is not

:58:42.:58:52.
:58:52.:58:53.

neutral. These comments have been rubbished here by Kenny Gibson. What

:58:53.:58:58.

is your reaction? I think it is important that everyone gets hold of

:58:58.:59:04.

all the information so they make their own decision. This is the

:59:04.:59:09.

future of the country. If we get it wrong, there is no going back. We

:59:09.:59:12.

need to know the detail. We need to think about the things that will

:59:13.:59:22.
:59:23.:59:24.

change. The Scottish National party wants to protect this idea that come

:59:24.:59:29.

independence, things will change, but nothing will really change. That

:59:29.:59:34.

is not true. Things will really change. We have to look at all

:59:34.:59:41.

aspects of the economy. Take pensions, which talk about the fact

:59:41.:59:45.

that most pensions are paid out of current revenue and income, so

:59:45.:59:51.

therefore if you have a bigger pool of income, you have less risk.

:59:51.:59:56.

finance secretary said that the same banking collapse could not happen he

:59:56.:00:02.

here now. Because of new regulations. I have heard so many

:00:02.:00:05.

guarantees about what will not happen in the future. Nobody can

:00:05.:00:15.
:00:15.:00:16.

guarantee these things. And letters remember, he produced a paper for

:00:16.:00:19.

his colleagues which was very different from that.

:00:19.:00:23.

You are watching Sunday Politics Scotland from the BBC. We are

:00:23.:00:26.

heading to the news now, but coming up after that, we are looking at the

:00:26.:00:29.

ordination of gay clergy. The General Assembly of the Church

:00:29.:00:32.

Scotland is meeting in Edinburgh just now. They will vote on the

:00:32.:00:35.

issue tomorrow. Let us cross to London now for the latest update

:00:35.:00:45.
:00:45.:01:11.

from Maxine Mawhinney and Reporting was telling Parliament why he had

:01:11.:01:14.

quit the government, because he disagreed strongly with the then

:01:14.:01:21.

Prime Minister of Europe. Now, 23 years on, he is attacking another

:01:21.:01:26.

prime minister from his party over their relationship with the European

:01:26.:01:36.
:01:36.:01:36.

Union. He said that David Cameron is negotiation has opened a Pandora's

:01:36.:01:39.

box and that the party is now running scared from the backbenchers

:01:39.:01:49.
:01:49.:01:50.

of the party. If there is of the referendum was to suggest that we

:01:50.:01:58.

were to leave the European Union it would be of grave consequence.

:01:58.:02:01.

has been a week where the Conservatives appear to obsess over

:02:01.:02:09.

Europe. Then, over 100 of its own members of Parliament voted against

:02:09.:02:17.

the party. Everyone is saying it is in meltdown now. At the top, one

:02:17.:02:22.

senior minister said they were in agreement. The policy issue is, do

:02:22.:02:25.

we need to do something to make our relationship with Europe from?

:02:25.:02:33.

Ansar to that is yes. David Cameron has promised to renegotiate the

:02:33.:02:36.

terms of membership. There is pressure on him to hurry up. We want

:02:37.:02:43.

to get on with it. We think the new relationship has to be based on

:02:43.:02:49.

trade. It cannot be based on common government. So, the then Minister is

:02:49.:02:57.

caught between the old guard and a new inpatient group of MPs. A former

:02:57.:03:02.

employee of Internet giant Google is providing evidence to the tax

:03:02.:03:06.

authorities about how the company avoided paying corporation tax in

:03:06.:03:13.

Britain by using offices in Dublin to finalise contracts. He claims

:03:13.:03:20.

that at that time, some deals were completed in Britain. Google said it

:03:20.:03:26.

cannot comment on specific allegations by CV comply fully with

:03:26.:03:32.

United Kingdom tax law. The funeral will take place today of the

:03:32.:03:40.

colleague of Imran can do was shot dead on the eve of the rerun of the

:03:40.:03:45.

recent election. The police are investigating whether it was

:03:45.:03:55.

politically motivated or the result of a botched robbery. Today,

:03:55.:04:00.

comedians and Eric Morecambe are being commemorated by a blue plaque

:04:00.:04:05.

at the Teddington Studios. It will be unveiled shortly by the widow of

:04:05.:04:12.

Eric Morecambe. That is all the news for now. There will be more news on

:04:12.:04:17.

BBC One at six o'clock. Scotland's economy is being held back by

:04:17.:04:19.

restrictive immigration policies of the UK Government, according to

:04:19.:04:24.

Scotland's External Affairs minister, Humza Yousaf.

:04:24.:04:26.

Economic arguments both for and against Scottish independence will

:04:26.:04:36.

be presented this week by the Scottish and UK governments. It is

:04:36.:04:41.

one of the only policies that unites trade unions, politicians and

:04:41.:04:43.

universities because they are all feeling the impact of this

:04:43.:04:49.

restriction. There is some evidence that in Scotland attitudes to

:04:49.:04:57.

immigration are somewhat more tolerant or welcoming. I stress,

:04:57.:05:00.

somewhat. The majority of opinion in Scotland still favours less

:05:01.:05:10.
:05:11.:05:11.

immigration. Economic arguments for and against independence will be put

:05:11.:05:14.

forward by the Scottish and United Kingdom governments. A report for

:05:14.:05:17.

the Treasury warns that the banking sector in an independent Scotland

:05:17.:05:20.

would be vulnerable because the country would be less able to afford

:05:20.:05:22.

bail-outs. The Scottish government will publish its own analysis,

:05:22.:05:25.

supporting claims that it needs more power over economic decisions to

:05:25.:05:27.

promote growth. Football now and the SPL season

:05:27.:05:30.

draws to a close this afternoon, with Celtic travelling to Dundee

:05:30.:05:32.

United and a Highland derby between Ross County and Inverness. Lastly,

:05:32.:05:36.

St Johnstone host Motherwell, hoping for a win and for Caley Thistle to

:05:36.:05:39.

drop points in the race for the final European place.

:05:39.:05:49.
:05:49.:05:57.

Now the weather forecast, with this afternoon. As the temperature

:05:57.:06:00.

rises this afternoon, we will see some heavy downpours in the

:06:00.:06:06.

north-east in particular. The best of the sunshine and north-western

:06:06.:06:16.
:06:16.:06:28.

Scotland, with top temperatures of 22 Celsius. 1560. 1843. Dates once

:06:28.:06:31.

imprinted on the minds of many Scots. Great events in the life of

:06:31.:06:34.

the kirk - the separation from Rome and the Great Disruption. Could

:06:34.:06:37.

there be another disruption in 2013? The Church of Scotland's General

:06:37.:06:40.

Assembly will tomorrow vote on the ordination of gay clergy. Laura

:06:40.:06:43.

Maxwell reports on the controversial issue which threatens to split the

:06:43.:06:46.

kirk. And so it begins, these are the men and women who will decide if

:06:47.:06:51.

gay ministers can be ordained into the Church of Scotland. This is a

:06:51.:06:57.

deeply personal subject, especially for Scott Rennie. His nomination in

:06:57.:07:02.

Aberdeen four years ago brought the issue to a head. He was supported

:07:02.:07:05.

then by his congregation and later by the General assembly. The wider

:07:05.:07:13.

church, this is not a one-man or just one issue. The debate is about

:07:13.:07:20.

the authority of Scripture. It underlies the scheme about the

:07:20.:07:24.

possibility of gay and lesbian ministers, there is a battle over

:07:24.:07:28.

the meaning of Scripture and whether it can be applied straightforwardly

:07:28.:07:35.

to Today's problems. In 2011, the General Assembly appointed a special

:07:35.:07:37.

commission to investigate both sides of the theological argument. It has

:07:38.:07:43.

made no art -- recommendations, instead it offers options. One

:07:43.:07:48.

approach is to support the ordination of those in civil

:07:48.:07:52.

partnerships while respecting any minister or congregation's decision

:07:52.:07:58.

not to accept gay minister. Down the centuries, often when the church has

:07:58.:08:02.

taken a negative view of progress, it has proven to be in the wrong

:08:02.:08:06.

side of history. With this issue, more and more of us accept and

:08:06.:08:12.

recognise that our sexuality is something given, not a matter of

:08:12.:08:17.

choice. Some ministers disagree so strongly they have left the church

:08:17.:08:23.

already, including reverend Paul Gibson. The pages of Scripture have

:08:23.:08:30.

such clarity on this issue, it is absolutely comprehensive in its

:08:30.:08:33.

declaration that same-sex activity is something which is seen as sinful

:08:33.:08:41.

by God. It is something he has the power to transform the person from

:08:41.:08:47.

in belief of Jesus Christ. The General Assembly is on a tightrope.

:08:47.:08:51.

On the one hand the church could appear more more done and relevant

:08:51.:08:55.

and on the other it could trigger a split. This could be costly in terms

:08:55.:09:02.

of the damage to the wider community and also in the courts. In June last

:09:02.:09:08.

year, the minister and congregation here at St George's Tron in Glasgow

:09:08.:09:13.

decided to split. Legal proceedings are now underway. In Aberdeen, the

:09:13.:09:20.

congregation of this church followed suit. Speculation is rife that their

:09:20.:09:27.

exodus will not be the last. What is new is the strength of feeling about

:09:27.:09:34.

this. It is like Custer's last stand with the wagons circling over this

:09:34.:09:39.

particular issue. That is what has given it the hate and possibility of

:09:39.:09:47.

a breakaway movement. I think the two sides need to keep talking.

:09:47.:09:51.

is no doubt the debate tomorrow is important but it might not be the

:09:51.:09:55.

last. Even if the General Assembly vote in favour, there will still be

:09:55.:10:01.

time for thought. Their decision gets passed back to the presbytery

:10:01.:10:06.

till the approval and that is not automatic. Even with their blessing,

:10:06.:10:11.

it will be at least 2015 before we see the ordination of openly gay men

:10:11.:10:13.

and women into the Church of Scotland.

:10:13.:10:16.

I'm now joined from Edinburgh by Professor Donald MacLeod, the

:10:16.:10:18.

eminent Free Church theologian, Dr William Naphy from Aberdeen

:10:18.:10:21.

University's history department - he has a specialist interest in kirk

:10:21.:10:24.

history and the history of sexuality and with me in the studio we have

:10:24.:10:27.

Stephen McGinty, who writes for the The Scotsman - frequently on the

:10:27.:10:36.

subject of religion. Good afternoon. Thank you for joining me. First EU

:10:36.:10:43.

Professor, what is your prediction for how this vote might call? How

:10:43.:10:48.

many ministers might leave the church and go to the free Church? I

:10:48.:10:58.
:10:58.:11:01.

think that a few will leave. There is no real mood, in my view, as

:11:01.:11:07.

leaving the church is a very solemn business. Although the free Church

:11:07.:11:12.

would welcome any of these ministers, there is also a profound

:11:12.:11:18.

anti-free Church phobia which would deterrent many of those who are

:11:18.:11:25.

opposed to gay ordination. We also have very different theology too

:11:25.:11:31.

many of those opposed to gay ordination. Really, a split is going

:11:31.:11:37.

to benefit nobody. It is important to regroup after the assembly and

:11:37.:11:44.

realign in a positive way. I do not see any significance to this

:11:44.:11:49.

secession and don't want to encourage it. What are your

:11:49.:11:57.

predictions as to how the vote might call? I tend to think they are

:11:57.:12:02.

likely to Fort to allow ordination by individual churches, so they can

:12:02.:12:07.

make up the remains. I tend to agree with your first eager that secession

:12:07.:12:12.

is unlikely to beat large-scale. Those that we've may find it

:12:13.:12:18.

difficult to find an old tenet of home. They're unlikely want to

:12:18.:12:24.

set-up as entirely independent. Professor MacLeod, it might be a

:12:24.:12:27.

difficult platform for the free Church to sheer platform with

:12:27.:12:34.

evangelicals who might split, you might agree about gay clergy but not

:12:34.:12:40.

on other areas like progressive forms of worship for example?

:12:40.:12:43.

free Church is the confessional church with a comprehensive

:12:43.:12:52.

theology. While we are sympathetic towards the anti-ordination,

:12:52.:12:57.

nevertheless, reluctant to encourage further chaos in Scotland in

:12:57.:13:05.

ecclesiastical a. We are prepared to support those in difficulty but I do

:13:05.:13:13.

not expect any large ingress to the free Church. This causes a lot of

:13:13.:13:19.

pain, for example at domestic and family level. It is highly emotive

:13:19.:13:28.

and the distress involved in leaving our congregation is considerable.

:13:28.:13:34.

All these things have a huge emotional cost on a personal and

:13:34.:13:40.

domestic family level. As we are hearing, a very turbulent time for

:13:40.:13:44.

the Church of Scotland now, but how is this used in the wider world?

:13:44.:13:50.

think people forget the incredible changes which are taking place in

:13:50.:13:54.

society. It is on was 25 years to the day since a group of lesbians

:13:54.:14:03.

broke into the BBC and hand cupped themselves to Sue Lawley's cheer.

:14:03.:14:09.

They did this because the government had introduced Section 28 which

:14:09.:14:16.

banned the promotion of homosexuality. Now, 25 years later

:14:16.:14:21.

we are in a situation where the church of England is having to plead

:14:21.:14:23.

to the government to introduce government which would prevent them

:14:23.:14:29.

from having been forced to conduct gay marriages. That is a huge

:14:29.:14:36.

seismic change in society. Whereas society itself, 60% of Scots believe

:14:36.:14:42.

gay marriage, which has gone up from 40% a decade ago. They believe the

:14:42.:14:46.

church should move at the time but people forget the essence of a

:14:46.:14:52.

church might be a conservative unit. It believes it stands separate

:14:52.:14:58.

from society and is more cautious about accepting these things.

:14:58.:15:03.

Interesting points there, the church was in step with state and those two

:15:03.:15:08.

have now broken away. It is difficult for us to remember that

:15:08.:15:15.

the Church of Scotland was very progressive, it broke away from Rome

:15:15.:15:22.

in 1560, that was a progressive move. The issue is to remember the

:15:22.:15:26.

Kirk presents itself as a national church and that is different from

:15:26.:15:32.

being a confessional, independent denominations. It has a role it

:15:32.:15:41.

understands in society, as a national organisation. It

:15:41.:15:43.

compensates the situation because it must not just interact with the

:15:43.:15:50.

nation but respond to it. Professor MacLeod, this is a turbulent time

:15:50.:15:55.

for the Church of Scotland, is this the debate about how Scripture is

:15:55.:16:02.

used? Could that have been another key issue other than homosexuality

:16:02.:16:09.

which could have been a crunch issue? There have been other issues

:16:09.:16:12.

over ordination which led to a similar debate in the past but not

:16:12.:16:19.

this crisis. It is the authority that governs the church, we can move

:16:19.:16:24.

with the times. The Bible is cleared on this issue, that is no ambiguity

:16:24.:16:32.

at all. That is the wider ecumenical dimension as well, the church for

:16:32.:16:41.

the last millennia have also taken the view that they cannot ordain

:16:41.:16:49.

those living in my relationships. The church is perfectly happy to

:16:49.:16:58.

endorse and defend those rights. We all it to the gay community to live

:16:58.:17:07.

their own lifestyles. The church has moved with the times in the past but

:17:07.:17:12.

it seems the Presbyterian Church is relaxed about divorce. We do not

:17:12.:17:16.

hear much about abortion, why is homosexuality is such a difficult

:17:16.:17:24.

point? I think largely because there are certain verses in the Scripture

:17:24.:17:28.

which present clarity on the issue and I would argue they are not as

:17:28.:17:32.

clear as people say they are. you are right, divorce is clearly

:17:32.:17:40.

taught in the Bible, but people except divorce. The attitude in

:17:40.:17:44.

Presbyterianism and Protestantism is different on contraception to

:17:44.:17:51.

Catholicism. I think this is just that kind of an issue for our age

:17:52.:17:58.

and because it is the litmus test of a biblical authority, it is taking

:17:58.:18:03.

on that kind of role. If you read the arguments about divorce and

:18:03.:18:10.

contraception, they are just as divisive and brittle. The Church of

:18:10.:18:16.

Scotland was a beacon, it was seen as a Parliament of Scotland for a

:18:16.:18:20.

long time, is it still regarded as that and will the decision have an

:18:20.:18:30.
:18:30.:18:31.

impact on wider Scotland? I think it will. Prior to the parliament, the

:18:31.:18:36.

Church of Scotland spoke to the -- for the nation. If it voted

:18:36.:18:41.

positively on this issue, it will be seen to be in step with civil

:18:41.:18:44.

society and the views of the majority of Scots stop as a reformed

:18:44.:18:50.

faith, it would send a signal as being the vanguard of social

:18:50.:18:59.

change. It would send a positive signal. The key thing on this issue

:18:59.:19:04.

is when will we actually CDs issues being adopt did in an orthodox

:19:04.:19:08.

synagogue or a Catholic Church or a mosque and that is a long way ahead.

:19:08.:19:15.

-- actually see these issues. attendance is falling in the Western

:19:15.:19:22.

culture, in other areas in the world attendance is going up

:19:22.:19:28.

exponentially, why is that? Date is still very important to a huge

:19:28.:19:33.

number of people, and still within Scotland. Bar more people go to

:19:33.:19:42.

church on Sunday or Saturday. -- far more people. People make up their

:19:42.:19:49.

minds more and contribute to the ideas. Professor MacLeod, a couple

:19:49.:19:58.

of interesting steps along the way before a final decision is made? The

:19:58.:20:05.

barrier act prevents isolation on the part of the church. I think

:20:05.:20:13.

Presbyterianism will endorse the view of the assembly. I think it

:20:13.:20:16.

will back the ordination of gay clergy. I think it will delay the

:20:16.:20:24.

inevitable outcome. In the meantime, they must regroup and consider where

:20:24.:20:29.

they go from this point on words. I think they should refrain from

:20:29.:20:33.

Priscilla to action. There has been no change in the Protestant view

:20:33.:20:40.

about divorce and contraception for the last 500 years. We will have to

:20:40.:20:44.

leave it there. Thank you all very much.

:20:44.:20:47.

Now in a moment, we'll be discussing the big events coming up this week

:20:47.:20:51.

at Holyrood, but first, let's take a look back at the Week in Sixty

:20:51.:21:01.
:21:01.:21:03.

seconds. The former Prime Minister Gordon Brown returned to the

:21:04.:21:07.

frontline of Scottish politics to launch the Labour campaign for

:21:07.:21:12.

Scotland to remain in the United Kingdom. Cardinal Keith O'Brien will

:21:12.:21:18.

leave Scotland for several months after he admitted improper sexual

:21:18.:21:28.
:21:28.:21:35.

Parliament was sworn in. He took his oath in English and his native

:21:35.:21:45.
:21:45.:21:52.

1400 job losses, most of them in Edinburgh. Nominations have close

:21:52.:21:59.

for the by-election in Aberdeen. The election takes place on June the

:21:59.:22:03.

20th. That was the week that was. Let us

:22:03.:22:12.

now take a look at the week to come. With me in the studio to chew over

:22:12.:22:16.

the busy week that was and what is in store next week, Mike Wade, who

:22:16.:22:26.
:22:26.:22:27.

writes for The Times, and Lucy Adams of The Herald. Let us turn to the

:22:27.:22:33.

two papers of the economy that are coming out. Look at this headline

:22:33.:22:40.

from the Sunday express. This is a reference to the United Kingdom

:22:40.:22:46.

paper coming out tomorrow. We were stealing from Kenny Gibson Elia,

:22:46.:22:56.

what did you make of his argument about the banking intervention?

:22:56.:23:00.

is best that people are putting something into the debate so that

:23:00.:23:10.

people can think about it. In this instance, we are beating as to when

:23:10.:23:19.

the Nationalists will respond to this and I expect that, quite soon.

:23:19.:23:22.

The United Kingdom Government is suggesting that Scotland could not

:23:22.:23:29.

survive a banking failure. Is that not the case? Until we see the paper

:23:29.:23:39.
:23:39.:23:41.

from tomorrow, of course, it is open to debate, but I think it is better

:23:41.:23:48.

for the Treasury to raise these issues and the Scottish Nationalists

:23:48.:23:55.

have to be able to respond to this. Does this touch on a near when we

:23:55.:24:00.

talk about the banking bailouts. people get nervous about the

:24:00.:24:06.

possibility? The arguments are very well timed, in terms of playing on

:24:06.:24:12.

the fears of people. The banking crisis was caused by a situation

:24:12.:24:17.

over which the Scottish cup and did not have any control. It is a

:24:17.:24:20.

dangerous game, in terms of looking at where responsibility lay in the

:24:20.:24:28.

first place. The idea of this paper is to be compelling cause concern in

:24:28.:24:31.

fear for those reading it, but the reality is that we do not know what

:24:31.:24:38.

is to happen. A lot of it is pie in the sky. A lot of it is, if this

:24:39.:24:44.

happens then this could happen. A lot of it draws comparisons with

:24:44.:24:51.

Iceland and Cyprus. They are saying the capital rate of what the banks

:24:51.:24:58.

hold in being similar. If there was another banking crisis, Scotland

:24:58.:25:04.

would be any worse position because they have a 1000% of the capita in

:25:04.:25:09.

terms of what the ankle per person in Scotland. But that is an effort

:25:09.:25:19.
:25:19.:25:21.

and but scenario. That is pie in the sky. The paper is coming out

:25:21.:25:28.

tomorrow. On Tuesday, the Cameron economic strategy will be released

:25:28.:25:32.

by the Scottish Nationalists. It obviously paint a rosy picture.

:25:32.:25:37.

Kenny Gibson was seeing it could unleash the potential of Scotland.

:25:37.:25:44.

Others are suggesting it is all about tax breaks? Yes, I have tried

:25:44.:25:50.

their luck at some aspects of it. There clearly is an incentive on tax

:25:50.:25:54.

breaks, but we have the likes of tuners is concerned, I can

:25:54.:26:00.

understand that. It could do with the likes of a boost. The likes of

:26:00.:26:10.
:26:10.:26:11.

food and drink, salmon, W. As Lucy says, that is a lot of pie in the

:26:11.:26:18.

sky. You have to take a lot of this on trust. There has got to be a very

:26:18.:26:25.

convincing argument, which I have not quite yet seen. There seems a

:26:25.:26:32.

lot of assertion that are and you have to buy into that. Perhaps the

:26:32.:26:39.

make the a bigger thing on Tuesday? Yes, I think there is a sense of

:26:39.:26:47.

that. The first sheet that he read fairly anodyne. It is talking about

:26:47.:26:57.
:26:57.:26:57.

Scotland spend on public sectors. It is seeing it is 42% of GDP, as

:26:57.:27:02.

opposed to roughly 45% in England and Wales. They are also trying to

:27:02.:27:08.

say they are not a one trick pony, it is not just about oil in the

:27:08.:27:16.

North Sea. They are talking about the money generated by the likes of

:27:16.:27:21.

food and drink and the likes of restaurants and even whiskey

:27:21.:27:25.

industry. But again, the ad again based on this idea that this could

:27:25.:27:31.

happen if this thing happens. People may look at this and say this

:27:31.:27:39.

research is done by the Scottish government, so how can we convinced

:27:39.:27:43.

either way about either of these documents. If you're looking at

:27:44.:27:48.

undecided voters, you want completely objective, which neither

:27:48.:27:54.

of these papers are. You need someone to come able to say this is

:27:54.:27:59.

how much we will have under independence, this is how much we

:27:59.:28:05.

will not have. Just they tend to look at these headlines. This is

:28:05.:28:09.

this divide in the Church of Scotland that we have just been

:28:09.:28:14.

talking about. You were talking about this great debate which will

:28:14.:28:18.

take place tomorrow. It will be fascinating to hear the final result

:28:18.:28:25.

of this. I do not think the public really realise how fantastic these

:28:25.:28:28.

debates are. They are full of passion and full of intellectual

:28:28.:28:34.

debate. I think the government has stepped in to this argument quite

:28:34.:28:42.

interestingly. The gay marriage proposals are different from the

:28:42.:28:49.

subject up for debate tomorrow. But the church as Paul opposes gay

:28:49.:28:54.

marriage. It will be interesting to see what the government intervention

:28:54.:29:04.
:29:04.:29:05.

in recent times while actually alter the debate. The church could argue

:29:05.:29:10.

that if they go in favour of same-sex clergy that would be the

:29:10.:29:15.

first step of the way and then, inevitably, we will go towards gay

:29:15.:29:25.

marriage. There is a poignant on both sides of that argument. There

:29:25.:29:33.

is a four and against argument. is this debate feud in the whole of

:29:33.:29:37.

Scotland, the wider Scotland? Does the Church of Scotland still have

:29:37.:29:45.

any impact? I think there are roughly 500,000 people in the

:29:45.:29:52.

congregation. It is falling, by about 15,000 last year. I think the

:29:52.:29:57.

debate itself is going to be very tense and exciting, but as to the

:29:57.:30:03.

impact on a wider Scotland, I think it will be interesting. There is a

:30:03.:30:06.

slightly different debate, there is this connection between the

:30:06.:30:10.

legislation going through in Holyrood regarding same-sex

:30:10.:30:16.

marriage. I think about be exciting but equally whatever decision they

:30:16.:30:22.

make, it will then go out to all the presbytery's Arran Scotland. It will

:30:22.:30:32.
:30:32.:30:33.

not be a snap decision. The good thing is that it will be debated in

:30:33.:30:40.

public. I think a lot of religious people are very unhappy about gay

:30:41.:30:49.

marriage and that the date has not really had a big public forum. It is

:30:49.:30:54.

an important debate for that reason. I often feel that the proponents for

:30:54.:30:56.

gay marriage do not have a great deal of respect for religious

:30:57.:31:05.

opinion. I think this debate will show, on both sides, and deeply this

:31:05.:31:11.

issue is felt. I think that is important. On a lighter note to

:31:11.:31:16.

finish with, no Liberal Democrats on the programme today. They are all on

:31:16.:31:26.
:31:26.:31:27.

the Orkney Islands celebrating the birth of Joe Grimond. It is the

:31:27.:31:32.

100th anniversary. The Aral celebrating the birth of the

:31:32.:31:42.
:31:42.:31:50.

founding father. Hopefully, the Democrats on Orkney and Shetland are

:31:51.:31:58.

proposing that they should be independent! Both of you, thank you

:31:58.:32:07.

very much for joining me. That is all from the us this week.

:32:07.:32:11.

Andrew Neil and Andrew Kerr are joined by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Danny Alexander and discuss Conservative UKIP electoral pacts with Conservative MPs Jacob Rees-Mogg and Jackie Doyle-Price. As well as all of the weekend's other political news, and debate with the weekly panel of journalists.


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