02/06/2013 Sunday Politics Scotland


Andrew Neil and Andrew Kerr with the latest political news, interviews and debate, including the latest on the lobbying scandal with Francis Maude and Jim Murphy.

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complain about the deal they are getting on expenses but many are


angry about the new system. Nadine Tories joins us.


And coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland - 16 and 17-year-olds will


get a vote in next year's referendum on independence, so will they vote


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2167 seconds


sympathy. You get 66,000 a year and you earn a decent pension. You can


earn money outside armament. It is not going to get public sympathy, is


it? The public needs of democracy in which MPs can afford to access. The


situation is we will have our parliament which will be full of


millionaires or poppers. It is coming to a situation for MPs cannot


afford to be MPs. I know to MPs are going to stand down because they


cannot afford to be MPs. Who do you blame for this? David Cameron and


Gordon brown because in the last parliament in a process to save


their skins, they agreed to recommendations put forward. It was


a knee-jerk reaction and badly thought through. It costs the


taxpayer a huge amount of money and should never have been agreed to.


understand I am supposed to ask you questions about how much you made


going into the jungle? I have not made anything yet. I do not want to


talk about it in the same way that if I asked you how much you earn


from the British taxpayer by the licence fee including your benefits


in trouble and how much you are paid in this job? You say here and now


how much you get paid and I will tell you how much I get paid.


have been paid nothing to go into the jungle, is that what you are


telling us? I have not smelly benefited from it. I do have a


company in which I write extensively, I do television


appearances extensively and I do get paid. When I benefit personally from


that, I will have to declare it to the register and when I do, I will


do it immediately. Isn't there a difference between you and Andrew


because you're an elected public representative? You took time out of


a paid job I did not, I was on holiday. YouTube time out to go and


do a television programme? Nick, you must tell the truth. Parliament was


on recess when I was in the jungle and I was on holiday. Your job is to


represent your constituents. So I am not allowed to have a holiday?


saying you need to declare it. declare the money that I am paid.


You are public representative. think her expenses for going into


the jungle have been well raked over. What do you think of my idea


that MPs should be paid much more? Do you think your colleagues would


go for that? A salary of say a hundred thousand? Outside earnings


and expenses? I think MPs issued be paid in the same level as GPs and


headteachers. I figured there were no outside earnings probably a large


number of MPs in Parliament today with a bubbly leads. The kind of


able you would attract would be a very different type of person.


are saying if MPs had 100000 and had no outside earnings they would


probably lead? Ella M I think there are more to earn substantially more


than that. For many MPs to give up their outside earnings, you have


people who write books etc. People who spend far more time on the


outside earnings. You are lumbered with it certain, aren't you? I think


we probably are and it needs to become a lot more comfortable.


Welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up - young people and the


referendum, we have a new survey which indicates what they make of


the information wars, who influences them and their voting intentions.


think schools have more of an influence than parents. At home


parents boat so that has influenced me more to vote. They want Scotland


to be the safest place in the world for children to grow up. How


realistic is the Scottish Government's lofty ambition? And MPs


behaving badly - white borders cannot recall troublesome


politicians despite repeated promises from the UK government.


Little has been known about the attitudes of young people who will


be eligible to vote next year until now. Major new survey by Edinburgh


University suggests only 21% of 14 to 17-year-olds would vote yes to an


independent Scotland. We have given exclusive access to the results and


I have been back to school to find out more.


At this Academy students are thinking about an historic vote. The


Edinburgh University survey was roadtested here. Pupils helped


define and clarify the questions. The main things we thought about was


how can we make this as easy as possible? We looked at all the


questions and analyse them and came up with ideas as to how to make them


as simple as possible. 94% of those surveys were aware of the referendum


would be held last year, -- next year, and the crunch question should


Scotland be an independent question - in the survey indicates 21% said


yes, 60% said no and 19% were undecided. If anyone was under the


illusion that I giving votes to 16 and 17-year-olds Alex Salmond was


going to unveil a secret weapon, by doing this, then they should be


disabused. This suggests there are is not marked evidence that there is


great support among 16 to seven new -- 17-year-olds. This is a


significant survey. No survey is definitive and we would be delighted


if someone else repeated this. No survey tells us everything, but this


is an indication. There has never been a survey like this before.


the information taken from this will be put to good use. We will supply


materials to schools in Scotland over the next few months so they can


use them in the next academic year. It is not in any sense to indicate


one side or the other but it will give teachers material on what young


people are thinking. Teachers are aware of their responsibilities when


it comes to the referendum. We have to show both sides of the debate but


you have your own opinions and you talk about it with other adults but


when you come into the classroom it is our responsibility to give a fair


and balanced viewpoint. A young people look for information, school


does not compete with social media. Scoop plays a good role but they do


not give you enough about the referendum, not yet. The Internet is


probably were young people get most of their information. Politics is


used more on social networking sites. Online it is easy to look for


what you need and you fight links and you go and find more arguments


and find out about things you would not necessarily look for.


teachers and survey researchers have been impressed that the awareness


and political engagement of young people suggested either survey. We


saw that in school. I am always interested in what is going on


because at this stage in my life, I am leaving school, it is important


to note what is going on and what changes will occur as I get older.


take an active interest in politics. I like to know what is going on in


the country and I take an interest in foreign politics as well. With


young people considering the survey results about identity and parental


influence in their voting, there is plenty to think about before heading


to the polling booth. Joining me now is then Nisbet, one of the students


we saw, a representative from Edinburgh University and Rachel


Ormston. -- then Nesbitt. Were you surprised by the results? What was


surprising was how low the boat was, even lower than what we see in most


of the adult polls. The young people have a strong interest in the survey


and getting more information. Two thirds of the students said


effectively that they want more information before they make a final


decision. Looking at independence, why was the result is so low? Is


there a confidence issue? There is something about not knowing what


will happen and not having the confidence of knowing what an


independent Scotland would be like. It is not so much a strong


conviction, but from the survey, it is a lack of information and


students say that. They want more specific information and they want


to know what is happening in order to make a more informed decision. If


they cannot do this, there is a high proportion of no faults. Rachel, how


does the survey compared to other results we have seen? As my


colleague said, the level of support for a yes vote amongst this age


group is a lot lower than we have seen in other surveys. Typically,


the polls over the last few months have put the yes vote at somewhere


between 28% and 36%, so 21% is a lot lower than that. It was quite


surprising finding, because if there is an age pattern amongst adults,


tends to be amongst the older age group who are least supportive of


independence. Young adults tend to be more supportive, but 14 to


17-year-olds are not conforming to that. It is interesting that younger


adults are not conforming. They tend to to be more liberal in their


views. I think it is a lack of certainty in what the consequences


would be, how sure you are about what independence means? That is


something that is linked with adults and how likely they are to vote yes


no. We often hear that adult abuse from the usual suspects and it is


interesting to hear from you, then. It is interesting and table wanted


to listen more, especially on social media. There has never been much


continuity so maybe one campaign says one thing and on the other


campaign they are saying something else. It needs clarification amongst


young people and what they want. What was the research indicating


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2167 seconds


based on this. Query to you go for information? Information can be


accessed anywhere. You can discuss with your parents and family and


this can be a place to spark up debate. Social media is a growing


force we find this and it is interesting. Independence for


Scotland is a completely new idea. In schools, many of the contemporary


issues we face there may not be events on the horizon we could


change. With this referendum, now we have the chance to vote, that shows


a real power behind young people. you discuss the referendum with your


friends at school? It is exciting. Because it is categorical in its


nature, it means people have to decide so many times have been spent


discussing with my peers at about what is happening. The real


engagement seems to be there and it has taken us by surprise. It is


usually the case that young adults are a little less interested in


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2167 seconds


politics. It is important and categorical. What are the scenarios


By it was evident from the fact that the suggested one 5th of young


people have still to make up their minds. It says I am not confident


about making a decision. Two-thirds are saying, I have made a decision,


but that could change if I get further information. Many young


people are willing to take information on board and I think


that is encouraging. Are you feeling fortunate that you can take


part in this debate? Yes, it is an amazing opportunity. It is


something that will change Scotland for ever. It is new ground for


Scotland to cover. This has not been looked at properly for


hundreds of years. It is a great opportunity. Do you get quite


heated almost when you have these discussions? It can get heated. We


are not putting each other down. We are seeking clarity and an


agreement on what will happen. is interesting to have this


evidence. Do you think it might be replicated by someone else? This is


certainly the first time, as far as I am aware, that there has been a


serious attempt to look at the views of 14 to 17-year-olds in


Scotland. I would hope that there will be further surveys of this age


group in the run-up to the referendum. Thank you all very much


for joining us. Now, there was positive news this


week when it came to child welfare. A Care Inspectorate report said


authorities are getting better at protecting at-risk children. It is


a difficult and sensitive issue but the Scottish Government is aiming


high, saying they want Scotland to be the best place in the world for


children to grow up. Craig Anderson has more.


The inspectors' report will make relatively comfortable reading for


social work departments. It recognises that staff understand


the corrosive employment of chronic poor parenting, neglect and


emotional abuse. The report recognises the help given by other


bodies him alerting social work staff to signs of abuse. Systems


have a set up to ensure a high degree of contact with parents and


children once it those youngsters had been placed on the child


protection register. People who are in charge of services to protect


children are working together. People who see children every day,


like health visitors and teachers, are much more willing to come


forward when they have concerns about children. But the inspectors


say there is still room for improvement. For children who are


approaching that threshold, they might not be having enough contact


with social workers. There is a growing awareness about the impact


of neglect on children. We are committed to getting it right with


every child. It is about making sure that we are intervening in


family life early enough to make a difference. We do not want to get


to the stage of children having to be looked after. Another key


recommendation is that social services should act faster one so


they decide that children should be removed from their home. A


permanent home is vital if children are to develop and flourish.


I'm joined now in the studio by Anne McTaggart, the Scottish Labour


MSP and by Stewart Maxwell the SNP MSP.


Good morning. A very positive report, things are obviously going


well in this sector. By the Scottish government do what


Scotland to be the best place for children to grow up. We must not be


complacent. This is a very good report and highlights many


improvements across many areas. They have been positive results and


much better multi- agency working they may have seen in the past. But


there are still problems. For example, children who are suffering


from neglect but two were just below the threshold so they are not


being bought to the attention of services quickly enough.


Scottish government are co- ordinating the agencies quite well.


Yes, they are. But there is still room for improvement. There are


still children who are below that threshold level that still need to


be looked at and given a service. The Care Inspectorate were pointing


out that child care is everyone's responsibility. Social workers,


police, members of the public as well. Is that important to


remember? It is one of the most important changes over the last few


years, the coming together of these agencies. In the past, there was a


problem were health might identify someone, but police and social


workers have no idea. We are beginning to see some positive


changes in that regard. It is important that we look forward. In


Parliament, we have to get her teeth into the new children Bill


that has been introduced. If we get that right, we will see further


improvement in the future. Is there still a problem about children who


fall through the cracks, who have come off the register, who have


missed the threshold for getting on the register? Yes, there is.


However, we have got to congratulate the health agencies


and all those who work more closely together. Education, police, they


are all coming together to try to identify these young people that


you are talking about. But it is important to recognise the


Invisible children. We need to identify and multi-agency approach.


It can be very difficult to identify the children. It is almost


inevitable that some children would fall through the cracks according


to the Care Inspectorate. But you cannot accept that. Do you have a


pragmatic view that there may be children who fall through the gaps


and there is very little that the authorities can do? There is no


system in the world that anyone can produce that will guarantee


absolute protection of all children. That is impossible. What we can do


is improve things. But there are children who are being missed. They


are suffering long-term neglect. But there is no single incident


that brings them to the attention of support mechanisms. But there


are particular groups, children with learning disabled parents, for


children with parents who have addiction problems, and they are


not getting the attention they require. That is one thing we must


focus on. That is why we have this you programme to make sure that


inspections take a broader look at children, rather than focus on a


narrow group. It can be very difficult for social workers to


identify these children? I totally agree. There is not a politician


who would not agree. The new approach and the aspirations in the


new Bill totally agree with that. It is a super way to move forward.


However, if we are not going to fund local authorities to enable us


to highlight that service and to produce that service, to support


some of the staff and the communities to enable us to try and


ensure that is done. But the services are very expensive? What


concerns are there in the sector about funding and cuts? At no point


in history have people said there is enough funding. Every pressure


is -- every budget is under pressure. That is why we have to


look at how the services work together and bring them together in


a more efficient manner. I think we can make progress. Local-government


has had an increasing share of the Scottish government budget. At


times there have been cuts... it is very difficult with the


council tax freeze. The council tax freeze is funded from the Scottish


government. But over and above that, the share of the Scottish budget


has increased over the period that the SNP has been NPower. That has


been of benefit to their social services. But cuts from whence Mr


will have an impact. -- cuts from Westminster. People are aware that


things have to be done differently. But I do not agree with them that


government, local government, has to take what they get. It is


totally impractical. The services that are there just now, they are


struggling to deal with what they have to do with just now. That is


without pudding those and people who are already in contact with


social services who are not already on the register. There is a range


of young people are still the bus on early years intervention and


making sure that children do not suffer more neglect. It will be more


efficient. Let us turn our attention to the story at the top of the


programme? Your reaction to the Edinburgh University survey that 21%


of young people would vote yes to our independent Scotland. It is an


interesting poll. A poll two weeks ago showed that amongst the younger


age group the split was roughly 50-50 in terms of yes and no. You


will get different results with different surveys but what is


important is the fact that when people come to vote, they will look


at individual questions. They will think do they want Scotland to


control welfare, benefits and taxation except? When it comes to


the boat, those are the choices people will make and they will


choose a positive future and vote yes. You heard people talking about


the lack of information? Could? Could there be more information?


Scottish Government has said it will publish a number of papers leading


up to the final paper towards the end of the year. There is lots more


information to come and those young people said they could be swayed in


terms of the boat. They will definitely get the information they


need and in the end, I am sure they will vote yes. Thank you both very


much. Coming up after the news - MPs


behaving badly, but what can be done? Legislation to deal with


misbehaving MPs was part of the coalition agreement but has been


kicked into the long grass. We will discuss that and we will also look


at the big stories of the week. You are watching Sunday Politics


Scotland and now it is time for a news up date.


Good afternoon. The latest official figures indicate that more pregnant


women in Scotland are trying to stop smoking. Last year the NHS in


Scotland recorded just under 3000 attempts by pregnant women to stop.


The Scottish Government says women will now be offered carbon monoxide


monitoring early in their pregnancy to check the levels of exposure to


cigarette smoke. It is a simple breath test. Carbon monoxide is


exhaled if women are smokers in a certain amount. There is a sensitive


equipment that will account as level of carbon monoxide that we feel is


dangerous. We know that in combination with women being advised


and referred to smoking stopping clinics, has been shown as a


combination of interventions that are successful. Reports of salts in


young children in the Fortwilliam area are being investigated. It is a


merged -- it has emerged that a 28 euros man been arrested in


connection with the inquiry and a report is being prepared.


A survey of teenagers eligible to vote for the first time in the


referendum vote says most do not think that Scotland should be


independent. 94% of 14 to seven new -- 17-year-olds surveyed were not


aware that are referendum will be held next year is 60% said no to


independence and just over one and said they believed Scotland should


be an independent country and 20% were undecided. Just over 1000


people were questioned by researchers for Edinburgh


University. As 15-year-old boy is in hospital


after falling down a cliff in Aberdeenshire. The accident happened


and at Castle ruins early yesterday evening. The leaves have issued a


warning over what they say is the hazardous conditions in the area.


In Iqbal, the Scotland manager Gordon Strachan says it's our huge


disappointment to be without the cap on for the World Cup qualifying


match in Croatia. He is on the sidelines and the Hibernian striker


in -- striker Leigh Griffiths is fit to travel. Time for a weather


will be misty and murky around the coast. Tomorrow it will be dry and


bright, particularly further east. Along the West Coast it will be


misty and murky. That is all for now.


I will be back with more news later. Now back to Sunday Politics


Now back to Sunday Politics Scotland. Patrick Mercer's


resignation of the flip has raised accusations that MPs are behaving


badly. A bill was promised by the coalition government but despite


high profile cases north and south of the border, nothing has


happened. Our Political Correspondent has asked why?


Remember this? Flipping MPs abusing the expenses system. They had the


cheek to try and keep it all secret until the courts stepped in. People


are dismayed. If an MP has done something seriously wrong that has


been proved, people should have the right to sack them and a sack them


now. A change in the law allowing people -- voters to force a


by-election was part of the caller illusion agreement. The government


published proposals to allow for recall if an MP was sent to jail or


of other MPs thought it was appropriate. For some people, that


does not go far enough. I would like the people to be able to decide.


That is the only way the right of recall is going to be anything but a


paper tiger. These proposals are a designed as such and will frighten


and very few MPs. A lot of water has flowed under the bridge. A bill of


recall was conspicuous by its absence from the Queens Speech. No


one at Westminster expected move any time soon until this happened.


Patrick Mercer's decision to stay on despite resigning the Tory whip over


cash for questions allegations has brought the issue back to the front


pages as has the ongoing issue surrounding this MP, suspended by


Labour last year. Those eager for reform are sceptical that recall is


the right course of action. It is not a tool for the public, it is a


tool for the really wealthy, elite people, or big political players who


spend lots of money running huge campaigns. For ordinary people to be


able to finance or organise such a campaign would be a huge jump.


Walker's suspension from the SNP following allegations of domestic


abuse has raised the issue at Holyrood. It is constituents will


not be able to sack him before the 2016 election. There are two


franchises in operations here. It would be very hard with the regional


board, which is designed to be proportional or two top up the


constituency elections, and at the moment, there is no possibility for


a by-election in the region, so if an MSP resigns, then the next person


down the list in the party gets elected and we saw that recently in


Aberdeen. It would be a big change for Holyrood to introduce this.


If the enthusiasm or the political class for people power is


diminished, the anger over errant MPs has not. All the tissues remain


divided over the right of recall and we are stuck with the politicians we


have got, for the moment. We are joined by John Finnie, the former


SNP MSP and he is now an independent and we have the Labour MP for


Edinburgh South, Ian Murray. Ian Murray, in Bristol, how necessary is


the right to recall? It is important to give able the power to be able to


determine whether the member of Parliament should stay on. Your


article mentioned Patrick Mercer. What we are left with at the moment,


is not just parties having to determine whether or not the elected


officials stay in their positions, but individuals themselves. Eric


Joyce has been thrown out of the Labour Party and he is no longer a


Labour member of Parliament, it is left with that individual to decide


whether he should stay on and I think legislation should be brought


in to ensure it's the people who elect these people have the decision


whether they wish these people to continue. How optimistic are you


about this legislation coming in? Francis Maude said earlier it was in


the coalition agreement? He is being slightly disingenuous. It has been


in many parties's manifesto. The government has had an opportunity to


legislate for this and bring the legislation in and they are not


doing it. It has been suggested that there will be a campaign run against


Nick Clegg over his broken promises. John Finnie, there has been a lot of


talk at Westminster at about this but not at Holyrood? How necessary


is the right of recall for Holyrood? It is only proper that the public


feel they are adequately represented by people of integrity. I have read


the report and I think there are challenges. Committee members have


said it was not evidence that this within hounds public opinion, and it


was here that it could raise potential that could not be


realised. There are challenges connected with the procedure when it


has been used in other jurisdictions. Do we want elected


representatives to be of high integrity? There have been knee-jerk


reactions and legislation is following the expenses scandal and


there was anger in the streets, quite understandably. It is


important we get the legislation right. It has to be fair to the


individual and third to the public and that means an exhaustive


process. That could take more than the duration than a period of


government. Do you think you should have been recalled by your


electorate when you resigned from the SNP? You resigned in the row


over NATO? I do think -- do not think that is the case. I was


elected as a manifesto and that gave a clear commitment and without


reference to the public, the party whose list I was on to their


decision. I do not subscribe to the view. I saw one political


commentators say it was the people who changed the fundamental policy.


They also in the House of Commons report, say there is no substitute


for elections and I think that is the case. I am very open-minded


about the recall issued what one of the frailties is there potential for


it to be hijacked. It is like Donald Trump hijacking events in the


north-east of Scotland! mentioned the possibility of Nick


called being -- Nick Clegg being recalled because of broken promises?


Is this not sent the rough-and-tumble of daily politics?


What John has just said about his own situation is that he should not


have been recalled, but the entire SNP for changing its policies! If we


want to instil new trust in politicians and politics, we have to


give power to the people to be able to make those choices. They make


those choices at the ballot box. If they think those choices are bad,


and the legs did representative acts badly, they should have the power to


be able to recall that member of Parliament. It is clear that rules


would we complicated. The report from the committee showed that this


was a complex issue and all parties are committed to doing this. If we


come to an agreement that will work, we can make it work. Do you think it


would be sensible to recall? We this is about the integrity that people


expect and there is no substitute for elections. The frailty of the


process is that if you apply for this across-the-board, then any


appeal system, if you talk about the significant issues of financial


irregularities, I tell you there are This was to instil public


confidence. Confidence includes participation of course. We want to


see the maximum participation. just want to get your reaction to


the survey of young people that we have seen. 21% supporting


independence in that survey. But it looked as if there is a big


potential for done people to change their minds? The survey has shown


what people are telling me that my visit schools. This is not the


issue they are interested in. Whilst Scotland is on pause,


obsessed by this constitutional issue, young people are saying to


me that the Scottish Government is asking them to take a risk with


their future when the other issues have not been mapped out. Young


people want jobs, they want a secure and stable future. They want


to be able to come into an education system at that age,


flourished for the future. But Alex Salmond is saying to young people,


take a risk with your future. Young people in that survey have given a


very clear message to Alex Salmond. The thank you both. Now in a moment,


we will be discussing the big events coming up this week at


Holyrood but, first, let's take a look back at the week in Sixty


Seconds. The Scottish government announced


it would press ahead with plans for same-sex marriage, introducing


legislation in the next month. People are waiting longer than ever


in Scottish Accident and Emergency departments.


The Health Secretary Alex Neil said there is more to be done. Across


Scotland as a whole, the figure is 92%. It is not as high as I would


like to see it, but it is moving in the right direction. We need to get


to 95 of they said. The Pope's representative in Britain said


Cardinal Cathal Bryan had made mistakes but also did a lot of good


work. Lawyers have advised Scottish


universities that it may be legal to carry on charging fees.


Campaigners have cold for a memorial to Mary Barbour.


-- called. That was the week that was. Now let's take a look at the


week ahead. This week I'm joined in the studio by the journalists


Maurice Smith and Anna Burnside. First of all, the young people's


serve it. Researchers coming up with interesting facts and figures.


Quite surprising that so few of the young people seem to be excited


about independence. You would think that everything about youth,


optimism, I would have got more of them would have been enthusiastic


about it. There is still so much to play for. They are open minded


about it. I was surprised by these results. It was quite surprising


and still a lot to play for. Yes, I was surprised as well. Perhaps it


disappointing for the yes campaign at this stage. But it is very early.


You can see a sense that they may be reflecting general opinion, the


opinion of people around them, that they do not have enough information.


They may be weary of the debate in this current phoney war staters.


They are trying to get accurate sources of information? That came


out from the figures and also that lovely, articulate young man that


you had on the programme. That is what they want, some clarity and


some facts. They do not like the nonsense. They want to get an idea


of what is happening. I was very encouraged by what Dr Jan Eichhorn


was same, that the understand it cannot be signed, sealed and


delivered, but they want to look at the different scenarios. They want


to do with this on quite a higher level. More adult wars going on in


the papers again today. This Sunday Herald has got quite a striking


headline. It is an interesting report about the UK's dysfunctional


economy. I would say, they are pro- independence without being pro SNP.


Especially on the economic side of the argument. It is very


interesting what Margaret Cuthbert has done here. She has laid out the


economic details behind the rhetoric. Many of us who remember


the debate in the 1970s and 1980s will be familiar with that, but we


have not heard this question in the debate recently, this whole


question of London's influence on the rest of the UK economy.


response from Better Together, they did not pick up on the London point,


they just said you could be excluding your biggest market.


to me, the Better Together of response did not strike me as


interesting about that report. It just seemed a bit thrown away at


the end of it. I think it is great to hear those arguments. I would


like these children who do the survey to read this kind of thing.


That is what we are leading. Looking ahead to this week, we are


going to discuss the Scottish Conservative conference next week.


The Scots Tory leader slaps down Scots critics. She is having quite


a tough ride in the press these last few days. The party does not


seem to be behind her? No, not long after she became leader, she seemed


to have gained some unity, but the cracks appearing. -- or appearing.


What is the issue with Ruth Davidson, is it her performance?


Why is she not getting us support from her MSPs? If I knew that, I


would move into political consulting. I do not know... It is


a poisoned chalice. I do not think you can play that might just now.


The party is so divided. It is being attacked on so many fronts. I


do not think it knows what it wants as leader to do. In at this Sunday


Times, this is quite a scandal. We have been discussing it the right


to recall. What did you make of that conversation we just have?


Both are quite keen on it. Yes, politicians are quite keen on doing


these things. But not keen on implementing them. It seems strange


that we are going round in a circle you. We had the expenses scandal,


and here we are, three years later, not a move has been made. The


public are going to look at this very sceptically. Our you sceptical


about it? I am not sure if it could work. We would have to be very


careful it did not just become another annoying way for interest


groups to give politicians are a hard time. I have mixed feelings


about it. The chance of that happening just now or slight.


are slight. It could be used maliciously? Yes, how do you


legislate for that? It could only be used in deserving cases and not


Andrew Neil and Andrew Kerr with the latest political news, interviews and debate, including the latest on the lobbying scandal with Cabinet Office minister Francis Maude and shadow defence secretary Jim Murphy. Plus Nadine Dorries MP on MPs' expenses.

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