07/07/2013 Sunday Politics Scotland


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Politics. Farewell Abu Qatada. It's only taken


us eight years to send you packing. The extremist Muslim cleric has


already arrived in Jordan this morning. We'll be talking to Justice


Secretary Chris Grayling. We know what Nigel Farage thinks -


he's never off the telly. But what about the rest of UKIP? Stay tuned


for the biggest survey yet of UKIP councillors. We'll be putting our


results to the party leader. As Ed Milliband and Union baron Len


McLuskey come to blows, we'll be asking political bruiser John Reid


who's in charge of Labour? And imagine coming out of the care


system at 16 and finding yourself homeless. There is new legislation


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1873 seconds


to fix the issue but does it go far this point you seem reluctant to


talk about and instead bash Labour which is not what I am asking about


at all. We have seen that many people who might have voted for you,


who voted Conservative in the past, will now vote for MrFar and --


MrFarage. Maybe in enough numbers to give MrMiliband the keys to Downing


Street which you say would be a disaster and MrMcCluskey and the


rest of them. I ask again why don't you do a deal to stop that


happening? Well, you don't do deals. You fight for your principles, you


fight for what you believe is right. The Conservative Party isn't going


to go to a general election having done a deal with someone else. We


are going to a general election and fight on the principles we believe


in. If you take the issue of Europe, the one on which a number of people


have expressed concerns in the last few years. On Friday the entire


Conservative Party went to the House of Commons and voted for a


referendum on the European Union. We face opposition to that from Labour


and the Lib Dems. Not from UKIP. Why can't you do a deal with a party


that's already full of people who used to be Conservatives? Look, we


have to get legislation through the House of Commons. The reality of the


House of Commons is that it's Labour and the Lib Dems who have more votes


than us in the House of Commons. So therefore if we are going to win the


argument the only way we will be able to change these things, the way


we can deliver a referendum, a renegotiation first because that's


crucial, we have to have a renegotiation so there is a genuine


deal to offer, we have to get a majority Conservative Government.


understand that. But you are only trailing Labour by 6-10% in the


polls, it's not a huge amount Labour is ahead at the moment. A deal with


UKIP would make it much more likely that you form a Government after the


next election. You have seen the election projections, no deal with


UKIP, MrMiliband could win an overall majority with less than 35%


of the vote. Well, the deal I want to do is not with another party.


It's with voters. It's with voters who might be tempted to vote for


UKIP, voters who might be tempted to vote for the Labour Party or Lib


Dems. We have to say to them if you want a referendum on Europe, if you


want new human rights laws, to carry on with welfare reform, if you want


more education changes of the kind you believe in, if you want a


tougher criminal justice system you need a majority Conservative


Government. All right. Abu Qatada back in Jordan today. The Home


Secretary said in the aftermath of this we need to look at the European


Court of Human Rights and nothing should be off the table, quote. But


nothing off the table, does that include the possibility that we


would leave the European Convention on Human Rights? Yes, it does. We


have been very clear. We are currently doing detailed work on


options. I have personal responsibility within the


Ministerial team for human rights issues. We are currently looking at


what the options are for us. I have been very clear indeed, we are not


ruling anything in, we are not ruling anything out. I have said


clearly at a minimum there will be a replacement for the Human Rights


Act. We will have a fundamental change to our realise with the


European Court of Human Rights. We cannot go on with a situation where


we have people who want to do real damage to this country able to stay


here, when they represent a threat to us A future Conservative


Government with a majority, one of the options would be to leave the


convention altogether? One of the options, I have ruled nothing in and


out. A future Conservative Government with a majority will make


wholesale changes to human rights laws. The problem is not the


original convention written by Conservatives and is a sensible


document. It's the way in which the European Courts interpret it and


re-interpret it You can't change the convention yourself. You can't


change it. Well, that's why we are working through detailed options and


we will come up later this year with a clear plan. We will go to the next


election in our manifesto with a clear plan for change that will set


out exactly what we will do, when we will do it, how we will do it, what


the legal basis will be. We will have that in good time for the


election but I am absolutely clear there will be wholesale changes to


the way that human rights laws operate in this country. I am sure


UKIP will agree with you, but I understand there will be no deal,


you have made that clear. Thank you for joining us. Coming up in 20


minutes, I will be looking at the week ahead with our panel. Welcome


to Sunday Politics Scotland. What more can be done to help those


marooned by the system after 16? had no family down here. The Battle


of Falkirk. Ed Miliband wants to mend the union link.


And the social media cyber war. How Yes Scotland and Better Together


wrestle it out in the digital world. It is a familiar story across the


country. Young people leave the care system only to find themselves


homeless. The Scottish Government is trying to change that through the


Children and Young People's Bill. Some believe it does not go far


enough. For this person the search for a


place to call home has been difficult. Now settled with his


partner and his daughter it is a different picture to five years ago.


The clear unit he was placed on was closed down. Unable to go home,


homelessness was his only option. had no family down here. I was in a


bed and breakfast. You were not allowed to be there during the day.


You had to be outside. I was lost. In towns and cities across the


country thousands of people have similar stories to tell. The nature


of homelessness means that hard and fast figures are difficult to come


by. It is estimated that one third of Scotland's homeless population


have spent time in care. I had two younger brothers who has


left the care system at an early age. They were homeless. They passed


away at the age of 18. There is a real disconnect when a young person


has grown up in the care system and then they leave the system.


The organisation Who Cares Scotland has supported -- has provided


support and employment. Every person has the same aspirations. They want


a job. They want a family. We have not given them the tools for that to


happen. If we look at the different sources that are paying for the


services that young people use and put that back into investing in the


longer term. The legislation proposes to raise the age that


support is available from 21 at 226. -- from 21 to 26. The economic sense


of acting early is there to be seen. There are many preventive measures


in this legislation that will help us to ensure that young people 's


lives are positive will stop but Who Cares Scotland are not alone in


thinking the Bill needs to go further.


I would like to see some consideration of 16-year-olds and


17-year-olds, the possibility that they can be received back into care.


The Bottom Line for this person is that those leaving care in future


should not face the same situation he did. People should be able to say


that they need the support. It should be a baseline. Joining me now


is the Chief Executive of Who Cares Scotland, Duncan Dunlop, and Mary


Fee, who is on the equal opportunities to midday will stop


and we have Marco Biagi who is also on the Equal Opportunities


Committee. Paint a picture for us. How serious is the problem? We have


to look at it relative to what happens to other young people. The


average age of young people leaving home in Scotland is 26. The majority


of people are leaving care at 16. Yet they have not had the stability


through childhood and adolescence. The consequences of this are dire.


We have to take this seriously. They need the right to be able to return


to care, or stay in care until 26. As the legislation and is


opportunity? It needs to go further. Children and Young People's Bill


need the right to return to care or to stay in care until age 26.


Biagi, what do you have to say about what Duncan Dunlop has been pointing


out? The legislation has perhaps not gone far enough? The legislation


extends the duty of corporate parenting by councils. Many of the


most successful projects for people who have let care are those that


have ongoing support, not simply putting them in a House, but having


support staff that come round and help them with life skills. That


kind of support is very important. It is being rolled out with the


changes that are taking place. When a young person leaves care they are


dependent on the grant that the Scottish Government has stepped in


to protect from Westminster cuts. There is a great deal already


happening. The legislation is a huge step already. Would you go as far as


what Duncan Dunlop is proposing? That would give many the chance to


go through higher education and make their way in the world. This


legislation includes provision that local councils would have to listen


to calls for help from these people up to the age of 26. I do not want


to be prescriptive about the particular approach. There are a lot


of methods of support out there. We have seen a great deal of work with


councils, not just with people who are leaving care, but is trying to


intervene to stop people going into care. The prevention agenda is not


just after you leave care. It is trying to deal with difficult


situations that can lead to an young people needing care in the first


place. Mary Fee, on the Equal Opportunities Committee you were


pointing out that the age should be raised to 18. What about the idea


that the support should be there until the age of 25? It is crucial


that the support is there until the age of 25 if that is what they


want. Many of the young care leavers told us that 16 is too young to


leave care. We heard harrowing story from a young person who was taken to


temporary accommodation on his 16th birthday. He did not have the life


skills to sustain that tenancy. What is your reaction? When politicians


know about this issue. They now understand this issue. We are


evolving the thinking. This legislation needs to go further. We


have not refused the legislation. We just need to look at it in more


detail. It is too complex. We need to compare it to what other young


people have in their lives. They have parents who gave them. At the


moment there are too many different relationships, different places, and


these young people do not know who to trust. That is why going to


another set of relationships from age 16 does not necessarily help.


Perhaps we are lacking in support. Is there a financial issues here?


Councils at and down the country bear the cost of having to clean up


after terrible incidents that could have been prevented will stop --


prevented. The kind of measures that are in the legislation will embed


that approach. That is an approach that a lot of councils will


appreciate. Right now there is a tight financial situation imposed on


Scotland. It is hard to make that shift without cutting somewhere


else, but over the long term that is a shift in service provision that


everybody wants to see. That is not necessarily true. In the short-term


it could be expensive. How much does it cost to put someone through the


justice system? How much does it cost for somebody to be an employed


and not involved in education? A preventative agenda would make


Scotland the best place to grow up. It is a great opportunity for


Scotland to do this. Mary Fee, are you going to press for further


changes? I don't think the bill does go far enough. Many children leave


the key system without the proper system. We have to look very


carefully at corporate patenting. We should expect the same things for


those children as we aspire to for our own children. It is a key issue


for me. I want to ask about the Falkirk situation for the Labour


Party at the moment. Do you think it is possible to mend a link with the


unions? Absolutely I think it is possible. The situation in Falkirk


is alive peace enquiry so it would be inappropriate for me to comment.


John Hanlan and -- Joanne Lamb and has been involved in that. It is not


just a Falkirk issue, it is a UK issue. It is a far wider issue.


is not just a Falkirk problem, there are claims today that unite tried to


take in the shadow Foreign Secretary when a review pitched him against


Jim Sheridan, what do you see about that? That is ludicrous. You cannot


compare the two situations. Clearly easily could have suffered in the


boundary changes. A boundary changes did not go ahead and MPs would have


been up against each other had they gone ahead. The situation is


completely different. It is only natural when there is a selection


process that people will come in and join the party but it is crucial we


get the best possible people standing in seats. Thank you all for


an interesting discussion. Since Obama's rise to office social media


and the Internet have seen as crucial campaign tools. Better


Together had a big change. The battle for America 2008 is the one


to beat. With the West Wing 's dream of having a political campaign like


that, as ground-breaking as its outcome was historic. Trucial to the


success was the way the Obama campaign used the Internet and


social media to get their message out and bring donations in. The


company behind that digital effort has been advising the Better


Together campaign ahead of Scottish independence. They had to build an


organisation from scratch so they wait to digital to do that. Often


the digital team is often put in the corner, in the cupboard far-away,


decisions are made in an organisation or political campaign


and then very close to the time I campaign is launched that gets


involved with the digital team. The digital team in 2008 was at the top


table. It is not just a case of talking to the Facebook is and those


on twitter. Activists across the country are kept on message. We are


grassroots organisation with tens of thousands of volunteers. Part of


what we want them to do is go out and evangelise through digital


media. Equally important is for them to talk to people face-to-face in a


cafe, with their family, in a pub or out of it for much. Our job is to


make sure those people have the tools they need and the information


they need to be able to carry on those conversations in an effective


way. Around the country I have instruct IB comments made by young


people. There are times when politicians attempts to use social


media go horribly wrong. Gordon Brown's intervention on the expenses


scandal through YouTube was ridiculed for being awkward and in


effect live. Some candidates have said stupid rings online. It is


keeping a sense of a new self online and remembering it is for ever so if


you are not willing to stand by it then do not see it. Some see online


campaigning as an alternative to off-line campaigning, knocking on


doors to you and me. But they have to get the message to new groups of


voters. It allows us to tailor our message to different audiences and


measured exactly how they have responded to it so we can further


polish our messages for people. Scotland and better together insist


they are grassroots campaigns and the referendum be won and lost in


online communities. With online networks playing a bigger part in


people's lives, being a wireless battle to dwell the week to win.


With me now is social media strategist. Thank you for coming in.


I'll be any where near the Obama level of online campaigning? Even


the level they were wrapped in 2008? Tell Michael I think both sides


would love to see they are in the hope that this Obama magic would rub


off on them but in terms of gathering data, the tools are very


similar. If the tool is available in America it is easily sent over here.


What all sides are missing is that what works in America does not


necessarily work in Britain. In America, Obama had local


fundraisers, people going round to each other was Mike houses, watching


videos of Obama and leaving donations, I do not see anyone in


Scotland rushing round to watch a video of Nicola Sturgeon or Alistair


Darling, it is not the same sort of politics. What is the key for this


kind of digital strategy? Equal is in the name, it is called social


media. -- the clue is in the name. It is not just about broadcasting


the message. For both sides being at close and cons. They want to put


their message out there but the beauty of social media is companies


coming back and changing things after listening to the audience.


They are reaching out to communities asking what the issues are at a


local level. The big problem is, neither side is going to back down


on anything. They do not want to be seen as looking weak or indecisive


or have the other side jump on them. Until we have a grown-up debate


about that EDL we will be more or less broadcasting rather than true


social media. -- about that easier. In this day and age politicians


should remember they are servants of the people. They should he


reflecting the desires of the people. If people want more taxes or


better childcare the job of the politician is to turn around and


respond to that. It has never been easier for the politician to the act


to the electorate. They are trying to hard to shout at people and top


down to them instead of seeing we will do one thing and by speaking


across Scotland we will see it as a bigger issue. That shows real change


and maturity online. In the US last night there was a method in twitter


that you could access slightly longer tweets and get more


information, what is the next big thing in social media? It ends on


the generation. For geeks like myself it is fascinating. You have


got people 25 and up to use Facebook, Twitter, blogs, they are


day-to-day tools now, not to much new media, just the media day use.


Youngsters are using tools that the average politician would not know


what it meant. It is not one tool, this is where many people struggle.


In days gone by a few appeared on shows like this or in the Herald or


Scotsman the coverage was done. Now it is a multi-fragmented platform.


The tools that need to be brought into day have to be used in weeks up


to the election. It is still a year away. You do not know what will


happen. The minute you win the election you start planning for the


next one, this has been the longest one in history for people to know.


With social media editors normally done quickly, 15 seconds, this is


something where people have a real chance to build relationships over


the long haul. You have to synchronise the online and off-line


campaign? Yes, it is one big connected world now. Thank you for


coming in to talk to us, really interesting to speak to you. Now you


are watching Sunday politics Scotland, after the news it might be


recess but that does not mean it has been a quiet week in politics. I


will be joined by my guests from the Herald and times to discuss more


about what has been in the news and a little sporting event that is


coming up this afternoon. Now we have the news and Reporting


Scotland. Good afternoon. The radical Muslim cleric Abu could had


has arrived in Jordan after being deported from Britain. He has been


taken to court in Amman this morning. That brings to an end eight


years of legal wrangling. Applicant had on his way out of Britain. For


years people have wanted to see this site but he frustrated them. A new


decision meant he could be put on a plane to Jordan where he has twice


been convicted in his absence of terror plots. I was absolutely


delighted. This is something this government said it would get done


and we have got it done. It is an issue that, like the rest of the


country, it has made my blood boil. This man who had no right to be in


our country and who was a threat to our country, that it has taken so


long to deport him. Now he is back in Jordan, that is excellent news.


Now the government wants to change the rules that made him so difficult


to deport. They want fewer appeals in cases. You want a fundamental


change in Britain's relationship with the European Court of human


rights which the claim for delaying this case. One of the options would


be to have nothing more to do with this court. We need to ensure we


protect human rights and this country has a fine record in


relation to the protection of human rights but we do want to make sure


that when there is somebody in this country who is dangerous and who


poses a threat, that we are able to remove them. With him finally landed


in Jordan how best to achieve that balance will be contested and the


world will watch to see whether he gets the fair trial here promised by


the officials in Jordan and expected by British politicians. Place in


Canada say they expect the number of casualties to rise after a tanker


train was derailed and exploded in a small-town intubate. Dozens remain


unaccounted for. More than 2000 people have been evacuated. The


train was carrying crude oil when it apparently started to roll away


after being parked by its driver. Andy Murray will attempt to win his


second title this afternoon. All tickets have been sold but many


queued overnight in the hope of watching the game on the big screen


inside. That is all the news for the moment. We will have more news at


half past seven tonight. Good afternoon. As you have healing Andy


Murray takes on Novak Jaco bitch in the main's singles at Wimbledon


tonight. -- Novak Jaco bitch. Our reporter was at the all England


club. It is quickly -- pretty quiet year on centre court right now. Andy


Murray will step out in front of 15,000 fans. If he wins he will make


history. Standing in his way is the best player on the planet. The world


number one has won most of his meetings. The last time they met it


was Murray who took the honours. Labour leader Ed Milli band has


dismissed rumours he wants to end their relationship between the party


and the trade unions. First Minister Alex Salmond has accused Scottish


Labour leader Johann Lamont of being silent on the issue while her party


has imploded. has imploded.


Time for the weather Dry bright and sunny across most of the country.


Any cloud in the south tending to break. Slightly cooler further


break. Slightly cooler further north. That is the forecast. I will


now hand you back to Andrew. In a moment we will be discussing


the big stories, but first let us its 65th anniversary this week. --


the NHS celebrated. The MP Tom Watson left as the Labour


general election court it. The right to buy council houses at a


discount will be scrapped by 2017. Glasgow lost out in its bid to host


the youth Olympic games 2018. We are proof that the men who died


in July 1980 are not forgotten. The 25th anniversary of the Piper Alpha


Labour's troubles in Falkirk have dominated the news and will no doubt


play a big role in the week ahead. I am now joined by Lindsay McIntosh


and Robbie Dinwoodie. Good afternoon. Thank you for joining me.


We will get straight to the top story that is dominating the


headlines. Ed Miliband is set on reform.


It has been a disastrous week for Labour. It is not going away any


time soon. The more that Ed Miliband wants to put this behind him the


harder it gets because he is simply pushing the unions away. This is the


labour movement. It is not easy to separate it out. Lord Reid was


talking about this ideological divide earlier. It looks like this


is a war that will continue. It is a battle for the soul of the Labour


Party that is going on here. They have to modernise in order to see


that's all. Labour has been successful in the past decade or so


when they have taken a centrist approach. We cannot have this lurch


back to union control. It is not going to fly. Do you think that Ed


Miliband can mend the link with the unions? He has to make sure that


more moderate trade union leaders are on his side. At the same time


they have to be very weary of accepting everything that has


happened and austerity because ordinary people are beginning to see


that enough is enough. That is the two tensions that are pulling at


him. We have been seeing a lot of Johann Lamont in the newspapers


today. She has been portrayed as a puppet in the press. She has been


quiet on this issue. We have not seen much of her in the past week.


She has not come out on this issue at all. It is an issue for the UK


party, but Johann Lamont has made much of the fact that she is in


control of the Scottish party. We do need to see her upfront. I believe


she is doing a lot behind the scenes, but she should come out and


say that. Does this call her leadership into question? It does


not call her leadership into question. That I am baffled by the


tactics. If, as Labour claimed, she is at one with Ed Miliband on this


and has been having conversations every step of the way, why has this


statement is not reflected that? Why have not been comments issued in the


name of Johann Lamont? For her to be completely silent strikes me.


Headline about the Unite union. There is the review of the boundary


Commission coming up. Jim Sheridan is portrayed as the man likely to


take the seat. Labour spokesperson has said something that I even


mention on here. United deny that anything untoward happens. This is


not on the same scale as Falkirk at all. But the fact that they were


willing to take on Alexander suggests that they are pretty


confident and pretty keen to seize power of this party. The Unite union


denied the allegation in the article. Are there are further


problems ahead for its Miller band? There is talk of this happening in


40 seats? If two constituencies had been merged then you should not be


surprised that some people will side with one and some will side with


another. What happened in Falkirk was different. Back in February


there was bleated vote rigging. -- there was clear vote rigging. This


is a controversy that is not going away.


And what some may call and artists impression of Andy Murray. Perhaps


history can be made this afternoon? It would be brilliant to have a


Scottish winner, a British winner. It would be great. He deserves it.


It is a brutal sport. It would be great if he did it. If he does not


do it this time I think he and Novak Djokovic will dominate for the next


few years. And I am sure your colleagues will be heading to


Dunblane. It would be great to have a winner from there. They are very


proud of him. Any political reverberations if a Scottish man


wins Wimbledon? I doubt it. I am not a great believer that sporting


events have a political knock-on effect. Are they not often tied in?


Yes they are. Both sides try to make capital out of it. But we try to


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