29/06/2014 Sunday Politics Scotland


29/06/2014

With Gordon Brewer. Andrew Neil is joined by Europe Minister David Lidington, Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan and Lib Dem Charles Kennedy to discuss David Cameron's EU defeat.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 29/06/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:34.:00:37.

No surprise that Cameron didn't get his way at the European summit.

:00:38.:00:41.

But does it mean Britain has just moved closer to the EU exit?

:00:42.:00:45.

Doctors want to ban smoking outright.

:00:46.:00:51.

or the health lobby's secret plan all along? We'll debate.

:00:52.:00:59.

Too white, too male? We've been crunching the numbers to find out

:01:00.:01:02.

whether Parliament's about to become more like the country.

:01:03.:01:07.

Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland:

:01:08.:01:09.

Lives could have been saved if the RAF's Tornado fleet had

:01:10.:01:12.

according to the official investigation.

:01:13.:01:26.

And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political

:01:27.:01:30.

panel in the business Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh.

:01:31.:01:41.

They've had their usual cognac, or Juncker as it's known in

:01:42.:01:44.

Luxembourg, for breakfast and will be tweeting under the influence.

:01:45.:01:47.

He's a boozing, chain-smoking, millionaire bon viveur who's made

:01:48.:01:49.

it big in the world of European politic.

:01:50.:01:51.

I speak of Jean-Claude Juncker, the former Prime Minister of Luxembourg

:01:52.:01:55.

He'll soon be President of the European Commission,

:01:56.:01:58.

He wasn't David Cameron's choice of course.

:01:59.:02:05.

But those the PM thought were his allies deserted him and he ended up

:02:06.:02:08.

on the wrong end of a 26-2 vote in favour of Arch-Fedrealist Juncker.

:02:09.:02:23.

-- on the wrong end of a 26-2 vote in favour of Arch-Federalist

:02:24.:02:26.

So where does this leave Mr Cameron's hopes

:02:27.:02:29.

of major reform and repatriation of EU powers back to the UK?

:02:30.:02:32.

Let's speak to his Europe Minister David Lidington.

:02:33.:02:36.

Welcome to the programme. The Prime Minister says that now with Mr

:02:37.:02:43.

Juncker at the helm, the battle to keep Britain in the EU has got

:02:44.:02:46.

harder. In what way has it got harder? For two reasons. The

:02:47.:02:51.

majority of the leaders have accepted the process that shifts

:02:52.:02:57.

power, it will not careful, from the elected heads of government right

:02:58.:03:01.

cross Europe to the party bosses, the faction leaders in the European

:03:02.:03:09.

Parliament and and the disaffection was made clear in many European

:03:10.:03:18.

countries. Mr Juncker had a distinguished period as head of

:03:19.:03:21.

Luxembourg, and was not a known reformer, but we have to judge on

:03:22.:03:24.

how he leads the commission and there were some elements in the

:03:25.:03:26.

mandate that the heads of government gave this week to the new incoming

:03:27.:03:32.

European Commission that I think are cautiously encouraging for us. The

:03:33.:03:36.

Prime Minister talked about those that not everybody wants to

:03:37.:03:43.

integrate and to the same extent and speed. Let me just interrupt you.

:03:44.:03:49.

What is new about saying that Europe can go closer to closer union at

:03:50.:03:53.

different speeds? That has always been the case. It's nothing new.

:03:54.:04:01.

Indeed there are precedents, and they are good examples of the

:04:02.:04:11.

approach as part of the course and one of the elements that the Prime

:04:12.:04:17.

Minister is taking forward in the strategy is to get general

:04:18.:04:20.

acceptance that while we agree that most of the partners have agreed to

:04:21.:04:25.

the single currency will want to press forward with closer

:04:26.:04:28.

integration of their economic and tax policies, but not every country

:04:29.:04:33.

in the EU is going to want to do that. We have to see the pattern

:04:34.:04:38.

that has grown up enough to recognise there is a diverse EU with

:04:39.:04:42.

28 member states and more in the future. We won't all integrate the

:04:43.:04:47.

extent. It is a matter of a pattern that is differentiation and

:04:48.:04:52.

integration. I understand that. John Major used to call it variable

:04:53.:04:56.

geometry, and other phrases nobody used to understand, but the point is

:04:57.:05:00.

that you're back benches don't want any union at any speed, even in the

:05:01.:05:04.

slow lane. They want to go in the other direction. It depends which

:05:05.:05:09.

backbencher you talk to. There's a diverse range of views. I think that

:05:10.:05:22.

there is acceptance that the core of the Prime Minister's approaches to

:05:23.:05:26.

seek reform of the European Union, for renegotiation after the

:05:27.:05:29.

election, then put it to the British people to decide. It won't be the

:05:30.:05:33.

British government or ministers that take the final decision, it's the

:05:34.:05:37.

British people, provided they are a Conservative government, who will

:05:38.:05:39.

take the decision on the basis of the reforms that David Cameron

:05:40.:05:43.

secures whether they want to stay in or not. Is there more of a chance,

:05:44.:05:47.

not a certainty or probability, but at least more of a chance that with

:05:48.:05:52.

Mr Juncker in that position of Britain leaving the EU? I don't

:05:53.:05:58.

think we can say that at the moment. I think we can say that the task of

:05:59.:06:02.

reform looks harder than it did a couple of weeks ago. But we have do

:06:03.:06:11.

put Mr Juncker to the test. I do think he would want his commission

:06:12.:06:23.

to be marked and I think that there is, and I find this in numbers

:06:24.:06:28.

around Europe, and there is a growing recognition that things

:06:29.:06:31.

cannot go on as they have been. Europe, economically, is in danger

:06:32.:06:35.

of losing a lot of ground will stop millions of youngsters are out of

:06:36.:06:39.

work already that reform. There is real anxiety and a number of

:06:40.:06:43.

countries now about the extent to which opinion polls and election

:06:44.:06:45.

results are showing a shift of support to both left and right wing

:06:46.:06:50.

parties, sometimes outright neofascist movements, expressing

:06:51.:06:52.

real content and resentment at Howard in touch -- how out of touch

:06:53.:07:01.

decisions have become. You say you are sensing anxiety about the

:07:02.:07:04.

condition of Europe, so why did they choose Mr Juncker then? You would

:07:05.:07:10.

have to put that question to some of the heads of European government.

:07:11.:07:16.

Clearly there were a number for whom domestic politics played a big role

:07:17.:07:20.

in the eventual decision that they took. There were some who had signed

:07:21.:07:28.

up to the lead candidate process and felt they could not back away from

:07:29.:07:32.

that, whatever their private feelings might have been, but I

:07:33.:07:36.

think the PM was right to say that this was a matter of principle and

:07:37.:07:39.

it shouldn't just be left as a stitch up by the European Parliament

:07:40.:07:45.

to tell us what they do. He said, I can't agree to pretend to acquiesce.

:07:46.:07:50.

They have to make the opposition clear that go on with reform. Are

:07:51.:07:54.

the current terms of membership for us unacceptable? The current terms

:07:55.:08:01.

of the membership are very far from perfect. Are they unacceptable? The

:08:02.:08:08.

current terms are certainly not ones that I feel comfortable with. The

:08:09.:08:14.

Prime Minister described them as unacceptable. Do you think they are?

:08:15.:08:19.

We look at the views of the British people at the moment. If you look at

:08:20.:08:24.

the polling at the moment, the evidence is that people are split on

:08:25.:08:27.

whether they think membership is a good thing. I'm asking what you

:08:28.:08:37.

think. David Cameron wants to in -- endorse changes in our interest, but

:08:38.:08:41.

also because the biggest market is going to suffer if they don't

:08:42.:08:45.

challenge -- grasp the challenge of political and economic reform.

:08:46.:08:50.

Newsnight, Friday night, Malcolm Rifkind the former Secretary of

:08:51.:08:55.

State said to me that even if the choice was to stay in on the

:08:56.:08:58.

existing terms, he would vote to stay in on the existing terms. He

:08:59.:09:01.

doesn't necessarily like them, but he would vote to stay in. That is

:09:02.:09:05.

the authentic voice of the Foreign Office, isn't it? That is the

:09:06.:09:09.

position of your department. Is it your position? Malcolm Rifkind is a

:09:10.:09:16.

distinguished and independent minded backbencher. He's not in government

:09:17.:09:21.

now. But that is your position. No, the position of the government and

:09:22.:09:24.

the Conservative Party in the government is that we believe that

:09:25.:09:28.

important changes, both economic and political reforms, are necessary and

:09:29.:09:33.

that they are attainable in our interest and those of Europe as a

:09:34.:09:37.

whole. Would you vote to stay in on the existing terms? That's not going

:09:38.:09:43.

to be a question that the referendum. Really? I know that in

:09:44.:09:49.

2017 Europe is going to look rather different to how it looks today. For

:09:50.:09:53.

one thing our colleagues in the Eurozone will want and need to press

:09:54.:09:56.

ahead with closer integration. That, in our view, needs to be done

:09:57.:10:00.

in a way that fully respects the rights of those of us who remain

:10:01.:10:05.

outside. Variable geometry, tackling things like the abuse of freedom of

:10:06.:10:09.

migration. Those are all in the conclusions from the leader this

:10:10.:10:13.

week and we should welcome that. Very briefly, finally, when will

:10:14.:10:17.

you, as a government, give us the negotiating position of the

:10:18.:10:20.

government? Will you give us what you hope to achieve before the

:10:21.:10:24.

election or not? David Cameron set out very clearly in his Bloomberg

:10:25.:10:30.

speech that he wanted a Europe that was more democratically accountable,

:10:31.:10:36.

more flexible, more at it -- economically competitive. That is

:10:37.:10:39.

all very general. When will you lay out the negotiating position? It's

:10:40.:10:43.

not general. It is very far from general. We have seen evidence in

:10:44.:10:48.

the successful cut of the European budget, the reform of fisheries,

:10:49.:10:54.

those reforms have started to take effect. We have won some victories

:10:55.:10:58.

and I'm sure the Prime Minister, as we get towards the general election,

:10:59.:11:02.

will want to make clear what the Conservative Party position is, and

:11:03.:11:04.

perhaps other political leaders will do the same for their party. Thank

:11:05.:11:12.

you for joining us this morning. The harsh reality of this is that there

:11:13.:11:16.

is a yawning gap between what the Prime Minister can hope to bring

:11:17.:11:20.

back and what will satisfy his Conservative backbenchers. Yes, I

:11:21.:11:25.

think the Parliamentary Conservative Party is divided into three parts,

:11:26.:11:29.

those who would vote to leave the EU regardless, those who would stay

:11:30.:11:32.

regardless, and a huge middle ground of people who want to stay in on

:11:33.:11:36.

renegotiated terms. These are not three equal parts. Those who would

:11:37.:11:40.

vote to stay in regardless are smaller and smaller. Compared to 20

:11:41.:11:44.

years ago, tiny. But the people in the middle, generally, would only

:11:45.:11:49.

stay in if you secure a renegotiation that will not be

:11:50.:11:52.

re-secured. In other words, they are de facto, out by 2017 and the

:11:53.:11:59.

referendum. This whole saga of the recent weeks has been the single

:12:00.:12:02.

biggest economy in foreign policy under this government. That's not

:12:03.:12:07.

what the voters think. -- single biggest ignominy. I mean the failure

:12:08.:12:12.

to secure the target. The opinion polls show that standing up against

:12:13.:12:17.

Mr Juncker has proved rather popular. I suggest that is not Mr

:12:18.:12:21.

Cameron's problem. His problem is that, if in the end he gets only

:12:22.:12:24.

because Medic changes, and if he says he still thinks that with these

:12:25.:12:30.

changes -- cosmetic changes. And he says that they should stay in, that

:12:31.:12:33.

would split the Tory party wide open. Eurosceptics say would be the

:12:34.:12:38.

biggest split since the corn laws. He wants to protect the position of

:12:39.:12:44.

coming out, and you might get that. He wants to crack down on abuse of

:12:45.:12:51.

benefits, and he might get that. He wants to restrict freedom of

:12:52.:12:53.

movement for future member states, and that's difficult, because it is

:12:54.:12:57.

a treaty change. And he wants to deal with closer union, but that is

:12:58.:13:02.

also treaty change. In the Council conclusions, David Cameron was

:13:03.:13:05.

encouraged because it said, let's look at closer union, but it did not

:13:06.:13:10.

say it would reform. All it said was ever closer union can be interpreted

:13:11.:13:14.

in different ways. In other words, we're not going to change it. The

:13:15.:13:17.

fundamental problem the David Cameron was that two years ago, when

:13:18.:13:28.

he vetoed the fiscal compact, that showed Angela Merkel was unwilling

:13:29.:13:30.

to help them and what happened in the last two weeks was that Angela

:13:31.:13:33.

Merkel was unable to help him. There is not a single leader of the

:13:34.:13:36.

European Union that once Juncker as president, and he doesn't want it,

:13:37.:13:39.

he wants the note take a job at the European Council. But there was this

:13:40.:13:41.

basic stitch up by the European basic stitch up by the European

:13:42.:13:44.

Parliament that meant he was presented, and when Angela Merkel

:13:45.:13:48.

put the question over his head there was a huge backlash in Germany and

:13:49.:13:52.

she was unable to deliver. I understand that, but I'm looking

:13:53.:13:57.

forward to Mr Cameron's predicament. I don't know how he squares the

:13:58.:14:01.

circle. It seems inconceivable that he can bring back enough from

:14:02.:14:06.

Brussels to satisfy his backbenchers. No, you can't. Most of

:14:07.:14:11.

them fundamentally want out. They don't want to be persuaded by

:14:12.:14:15.

renegotiations. Where it's hard to draw conclusions from the polling is

:14:16.:14:18.

that if you ask people question that sounds like, do you like the fact

:14:19.:14:22.

that our Prime Minister has gone to Brussels and stuck it to the man,

:14:23.:14:25.

they say yes, but how many people will go to the voting booths and put

:14:26.:14:30.

their cross in the box based on Europe? We know mostly voters care

:14:31.:14:34.

about Europe as a proxy for immigration fears. In ten people in

:14:35.:14:41.

this country could not tell you who John Claude Juncker is Angela Weir

:14:42.:14:44.

is replacing. -- and who he is replacing.

:14:45.:14:47.

And I'm joined in the studio now by arch-Eurosceptic Conservative MEP,

:14:48.:14:50.

Daniel Hannan and from Strasbourg by staunch European and former Liberal

:14:51.:14:53.

war? His declared objectives would leave Britain still in the common

:14:54.:15:14.

agricultural policy, the common foreign policy, the European arrest

:15:15.:15:20.

warrant, so the negotiating aims which we just heard Nick setting out

:15:21.:15:24.

wouldn't fundamentally change anything. It would be easy for the

:15:25.:15:29.

Government to declare war on any of these things. The danger from your

:15:30.:15:36.

point of view as someone who wants to stay in is that if David Cameron

:15:37.:15:41.

only gets cosmetic changes, the chance of getting the vote to leave

:15:42.:15:45.

the European Union increases, doesn't it? Hypothetically it

:15:46.:15:54.

probably does but we have two big things to get through first in

:15:55.:15:58.

domestic politics before we even reach a negotiation. One is are we

:15:59.:16:04.

going to have the United Kingdom this time next year following the

:16:05.:16:11.

referendum in Scotland? Secondly, are the Conservatives after the

:16:12.:16:15.

general election next year going to be in a position to pursue a

:16:16.:16:19.

negotiation? In other words are they going to be a majority government or

:16:20.:16:25.

even a minority government? For the sake of this morning let's assume

:16:26.:16:30.

the answer to both is yes, the UK stays intact and against the polls

:16:31.:16:35.

they were saying this morning, David Cameron forms an overall majority

:16:36.:16:39.

after the election. There is a danger, if he doesn't bring much

:16:40.:16:45.

back, that people will vote yes, correct? There is that danger and I

:16:46.:16:52.

see a lot of the British press comment this morning saying this

:16:53.:16:56.

could be a rerun of the Harold Wilson like negotiation of the

:16:57.:17:01.

1970s, a bit cosmetic but enough to say we have got new terms and you

:17:02.:17:06.

should go with it. I think what is different however, and this is

:17:07.:17:11.

really an appeal if you like, it cannot just be left to the Liberal

:17:12.:17:13.

Democrats and coalition government cannot just be left to the Liberal

:17:14.:17:18.

to make this case on our Rome. A lot of interest groups across the land

:17:19.:17:24.

will have to start being prepared to put their head above the parapet on

:17:25.:17:27.

the fundamental - do you want Britain to remain in the European

:17:28.:17:33.

Union? Yes or no? Are you willing to put your public reputations on the

:17:34.:17:37.

line? We are not getting enough of that at the moment and it is getting

:17:38.:17:42.

dangerously close to closing time. Daniel Hannan, David Cameron will

:17:43.:17:53.

not get away with this, will he? It will be an acceptable to his party.

:17:54.:17:59.

If it is an acceptable to Tory backbenchers it is because it is

:18:00.:18:04.

working and they are reflecting what their constituents say. A majority

:18:05.:18:09.

of people in the country are unhappy with the present terms. They can see

:18:10.:18:13.

there is a huge wide world beyond the oceans and we have confined

:18:14.:18:19.

ourselves to this small trade bloc. There is a huge debate to be had

:18:20.:18:24.

about whether we could be doing better outside. It is not danger, it

:18:25.:18:30.

is democracy, trusting people. If the only person offering a

:18:31.:18:34.

referendum at the moment is the Prime Minister, it has serious

:18:35.:18:39.

consequences for his party, your party, that's what I'm talking

:18:40.:18:45.

about. I am very proud of being part of the party that is trusting people

:18:46.:18:50.

to offer this. If he only gets cosmetic changes he cannot carry his

:18:51.:18:56.

party. But ultimately it will not be his party, it is the electorate as a

:18:57.:19:01.

whole that has to decide whether the changes are substantive. Everything

:19:02.:19:05.

we have been hearing just now is about staying out of future

:19:06.:19:10.

integration, protecting the role of the non-euro countries. People are

:19:11.:19:14.

upset about what is going on today with the EU. They can see laws being

:19:15.:19:20.

passed by people they cannot vote for, friendships overseas are

:19:21.:19:24.

prejudiced, and they conceive that the European Union has just put in

:19:25.:19:29.

charge in the top slot somebody who wants a United States of Europe into

:19:30.:19:33.

which we will eventually be dragged into as some kind of Providence.

:19:34.:19:39.

Jean-Claude Juncker is a Federalist, you are Federalist, why did the Lib

:19:40.:19:49.

Dems oppose him? We shared the view that whilst you take account of what

:19:50.:19:54.

the members of the European Parliament say, ultimately the

:19:55.:19:57.

choice of the presidency in the commission should be the political

:19:58.:20:02.

leaders, the governmental leaders at a national level, and that's why we

:20:03.:20:07.

went down the route we did. It was more to do with the system than the

:20:08.:20:11.

individual. Although I would say that you need to bear in mind, I

:20:12.:20:16.

mean Daniel, I respect him personally and the integrity of his

:20:17.:20:21.

views, as I think he does mine, but to dismiss the European Union as a

:20:22.:20:29.

small trading block globally, when you have got the United States of

:20:30.:20:33.

America, China and other countries acknowledging its importance, it is

:20:34.:20:43.

really Walter Mitty land. Are we closer than... Daniel Hannan, are we

:20:44.:20:56.

closer to an exit after what happened last week? Yes, because the

:20:57.:21:01.

idea that we could get substantive reforms, gets a mythic and powers

:21:02.:21:11.

back and be within a looser, more flexible European Union has plainly

:21:12.:21:19.

been closed off. We have to face up to the actual European Union that

:21:20.:21:24.

has taken shape on our doorstep. Are we going to be part of that or are

:21:25.:21:29.

we going to have a much more semidetached, looser relationship

:21:30.:21:33.

with it which we can either achieve via a unilateral system of power or

:21:34.:21:45.

another way. This debate is never-ending, it is going on and on

:21:46.:21:50.

and has bedevilled British prime ministers for as long as I can

:21:51.:21:53.

remember. Shouldn't the Lib Dems change their stance on the

:21:54.:21:58.

referendum yet again let's just have this in-out referendum and have it

:21:59.:22:04.

sided one way or another? Our position remains clear. If there is

:22:05.:22:09.

a constitutional issue put before us in terms of treaty changes then we

:22:10.:22:17.

will have a referendum. Why not now? I am probably the wrong person to

:22:18.:22:27.

ask because I argued and voted for a referendum on Maastricht because I

:22:28.:22:32.

thought that was a constitutional treaty. Anything that makes the

:22:33.:22:35.

Queen a citizen of the European Union surely has constitutional

:22:36.:22:42.

implications. Anyway, 20 years on we are where we are and we need to

:22:43.:22:47.

established common vocabulary. You talk about federalism. What do we

:22:48.:22:55.

mean? Most of the people operating in the European Parliament and the

:22:56.:22:58.

institution across the road, the Council of Europe, they mean by

:22:59.:23:03.

federalism decentralisation of powers, not a Brussels superstate

:23:04.:23:10.

but actually the kind of decentralisation that maintains

:23:11.:23:13.

national characteristics and pools resources and sovereignty where it

:23:14.:23:23.

makes sense. Mr Juncker, who is now going to be in charge of the

:23:24.:23:26.

Brussels commission, he believes in a single EU reform policy, an EU

:23:27.:23:37.

wide minimum wage and EU wide taxes. You said this week that you

:23:38.:23:41.

liked the sound of Juncker federalism. Does that sound good to

:23:42.:23:48.

you? No, and I think the new president of the commission will be

:23:49.:23:52.

disappointed if he puts forward these views because although we only

:23:53.:23:58.

had Hungary voting with us, I think if you go to other countries,

:23:59.:24:03.

France, Poland, Scandinavia, they are not going to buy that kind of

:24:04.:24:09.

menu. What they mean by federalism is the continental concept, also the

:24:10.:24:15.

North American concept, that we can sit very happily... They have an

:24:16.:24:23.

army, a federal police force, federal taxation. Yes, but in terms

:24:24.:24:32.

of the political institutions which is what we are discussing here, you

:24:33.:24:36.

can have the supranational, the European level, whilst still having

:24:37.:24:41.

the very vibrant national, and indeed as we are practising in the

:24:42.:24:46.

United Kingdom the subnational. A very brief final word from you,

:24:47.:24:52.

Daniel. That is ultimately going to be the choice. The European Union is

:24:53.:24:58.

an evolving dynamic, we can see the direction it is going in. Do we want

:24:59.:25:02.

to be part of that? I suspect Charles Kennedy would have loved a

:25:03.:25:07.

referendum. I cannot help but notice his party is going downhill since he

:25:08.:25:22.

was running it. It is illegal to light up in the workplace, pubs and

:25:23.:25:27.

restaurants. Now the British Medical Association has voted to outlaw

:25:28.:25:30.

everywhere but not everybody at once. It would apply to anyone born

:25:31.:25:36.

after the year 2000. In a moment we will debate the merits of those

:25:37.:25:41.

plans but first he is Adam. There was a time when to be British

:25:42.:25:47.

was to be a smoker. 1948 was the year off peak fag with 82% of men

:25:48.:25:52.

smoking mainly cigarettes but it was a pipe that Harold Wilson used as a

:25:53.:25:57.

political prop to help with the hard-hitting interviews they did in

:25:58.:26:01.

those days. The advertisements make out pipe smokers to be more virile,

:26:02.:26:12.

more fascinating men than anybody else. Do you thought -- have that

:26:13.:26:17.

thought anywhere in your mind? No. It changed in 2006 when smoking in

:26:18.:26:28.

enclosed places was banned. I would rather be inside but unfortunately

:26:29.:26:31.

we have got to do what this Government tells us to do. I think

:26:32.:26:38.

it is good, it is calm and you can breathe. Research suggests it has

:26:39.:26:43.

improved the health of bar workers no end and reduced childhood asthma.

:26:44.:26:48.

Now just one in five adults is a smoker. Coming next, crackdowns on

:26:49.:26:53.

those newfangled e-cigarettes, smoking in cars and possibly the

:26:54.:26:58.

introduction of plain packaging. There is still those who take pride

:26:59.:27:05.

in smoking and see it as a war on freedom.

:27:06.:27:18.

We're joined now by Dr Vivienne Nathanson

:27:19.:27:21.

from the British Medical Association who voted for a graduated ban

:27:22.:27:24.

on smoking at their conference last week, and Simon Clark

:27:25.:27:28.

They're here to go head-to-head. There are plenty of things which are

:27:29.:27:37.

bad for our health, why single out cigarettes? We need some sugar in

:27:38.:27:47.

our diets but the fact is that we need to stop people smoking as

:27:48.:27:51.

children because if we can do that, the likelihood that they will start

:27:52.:27:56.

smoking is very small. In no circumstances is smoking good for

:27:57.:28:01.

you. There are lots of smokers who live long, healthy lives but we

:28:02.:28:06.

totally accept smoking is a risk to your health and adults have to make

:28:07.:28:11.

that decision, just as you make the decision about drinking alcohol,

:28:12.:28:16.

eating fatty foods and drinking sugary drinks. This proposal is

:28:17.:28:19.

totally impractical. It will create a huge black market in cigarettes

:28:20.:28:24.

which will get bigger every year. They say this is about stopping

:28:25.:28:27.

children smoking but there is already a law in place that stops

:28:28.:28:34.

shopkeepers from selling cigarettes to children. This target adults so

:28:35.:28:39.

you could have the bizarre situation in the year 3035 for example where a

:28:40.:28:45.

36-year-old can go into shops to buy cigarettes but if you are 35 you

:28:46.:28:49.

will be denied that, which is ludicrous. The point is that the

:28:50.:28:54.

younger you start smoking the more likely you will become heavily

:28:55.:28:58.

addicted. I take the point, but the point he is saying is that if this

:28:59.:29:03.

becomes law, down the road, if you go into shops to buy cigarettes you

:29:04.:29:08.

would have to take your birth certificate, wouldn't you? We have

:29:09.:29:13.

no idea how the legislation would be written but the key point is that if

:29:14.:29:17.

we can stop young people from starting to smoke, we will in 20

:29:18.:29:22.

years have a whole group of people who have never smoked so you won't

:29:23.:29:27.

have that problem of people who are smokers and they are now in their

:29:28.:29:31.

20s and 30s. Or you will have a lot of younger people who get cigarettes

:29:32.:29:35.

the way they currently get illegal drugs now. They are already getting

:29:36.:29:39.

cigarettes illegally and we have to deal with that. We have got to get

:29:40.:29:45.

better. The Government has not been able to stop it. We know this is

:29:46.:29:56.

going to kill 50%... When you are 15 you think you will live for ever.

:29:57.:30:00.

Indeed but they also do it as rebellion and because they see

:30:01.:30:04.

adults and it is remarkably easy to buy cigarettes. Whatever the case is

:30:05.:30:09.

for individual choice, won't most people agree that if you could stop

:30:10.:30:13.

young people smoking, so that through the rest of their lives they

:30:14.:30:17.

never smoked, that would be worth doing? You get 16 or 17-year-olds

:30:18.:30:27.

who already do that. Is it worth trying? When the government

:30:28.:30:33.

increased the age at which shopkeepers could sell from 16 to

:30:34.:30:37.

18, we supported it. We don't support a ban on proxy purchasing,

:30:38.:30:42.

we support reasonable measures, but this is unreasonable. This proposal

:30:43.:30:45.

says a lot about the BMA, because this week the BMA also passed a

:30:46.:30:51.

motion to ban the use of E cigarettes in public places. There

:30:52.:30:54.

is no evidence that they are dangerous to health, so why are they

:30:55.:30:58.

doing that? They are becoming a temperance society. This is not

:30:59.:31:02.

about public health, it's an old-fashioned temperance society and

:31:03.:31:05.

they have to get their act together because they are bringing the

:31:06.:31:09.

medical profession into disrepute. We were having argument is about

:31:10.:31:14.

things that people buy large accept, smoking in bars or public places,

:31:15.:31:19.

but the real aim of the BMA was the total banning of cigarettes

:31:20.:31:21.

altogether. This would suggest that that was true to claim that. It's

:31:22.:31:28.

not about a ban, it's about a move to a country where nobody wants to

:31:29.:31:32.

smoke and no one is a smoker. But it would be illegal to smoke. It would

:31:33.:31:37.

be illegal to buy, not smoke, and there's a difference between two. So

:31:38.:31:43.

even if I am born in the year 2000, it would still be illegal to smoke,

:31:44.:31:47.

just illegal to buy the cigarettes? Indeed. The point being that the

:31:48.:31:53.

habit of smoking is very strongly linked to your ability to buy, so

:31:54.:31:57.

that is why things like Price and availability and marketing are so

:31:58.:32:02.

important. People will flood across the Channel with the cigarettes. One

:32:03.:32:06.

thing you will find is that throughout the world people is

:32:07.:32:08.

looking at -- people are looking at the same kind of measures, and

:32:09.:32:13.

different countries like Australia, they were the first with a

:32:14.:32:16.

standardised packaging. Other countries will follow, because all

:32:17.:32:19.

of us are facing the fact that we can't afford to pay for the

:32:20.:32:25.

tragedy. There will be people waiting to flood the market with

:32:26.:32:29.

cigarettes. This is nonsense. Thanks for both coming and going

:32:30.:32:32.

"Unless we have more equal head-to-head.

:32:33.:32:35.

"Unless we have more equal representation, our politics won't

:32:36.:32:38.

be half as good as it should be." So said David Cameron back in 2009.

:32:39.:32:41.

So how's it going? Well, you can judge the quality

:32:42.:32:44.

of the politics for yourself, but we've been crunching

:32:45.:32:46.

the numbers to find out what parliament might look like after

:32:47.:32:49.

the next year's general election. Here's Giles.

:32:50.:32:53.

Politicians are elected to Parliament to represent their

:32:54.:32:57.

constituents, but the make-up of Parliament does not reflect society

:32:58.:33:03.

well at all the parties it. In 2010 more women and ethnic minority

:33:04.:33:05.

candidates entered Westminster but not significantly more inner chamber

:33:06.:33:15.

still dominated by white males. Looking at the current make-up of

:33:16.:33:20.

the Commons, Labour has 83 female MPs, the Conservative have 47 women

:33:21.:33:26.

MPs, which is just over 47% -- and the Lib Dems have 12% of the

:33:27.:33:31.

parties. All of the parties have selected parliaments in those seats

:33:32.:33:35.

where existing MPs are retiring and to fight seats at the next

:33:36.:33:38.

election, and they've all been trying to up the number of women and

:33:39.:33:41.

ethnic minorities because discounts and can be capitalised on. A picture

:33:42.:33:46.

tells a thousand words. Look at the all-male front bench before us. And

:33:47.:33:51.

he says he wants to represent the whole country. Despite the jibe, the

:33:52.:33:56.

Labour Party know they have a long way to go on the issue of being

:33:57.:33:58.

representative. So we way to go on the issue of being

:33:59.:34:09.

look at this particular area of lack of women and ethnic minorities.

:34:10.:34:10.

In the most marginal, 40 have women candidates, that would mean if they

:34:11.:34:42.

got just enough to win power, they would have 133 women, which is 41%

:34:43.:34:49.

The Conservatives currently have 305 MPs and their strategy

:34:50.:34:50.

at the next election is to concentrate on their 40 most

:34:51.:34:53.

marginal seats, and the 40 seats most mathematically likely to turn

:34:54.:34:56.

In those 40, 29 candidates have been selected

:34:57.:34:59.

If they kept hold of their existing seats and won those 29 new ones,

:35:00.:35:05.

they would have 56 women MPs, around 17%, and up 2% from last time.

:35:06.:35:08.

The Liberal Democrats are fighting to hold on to the 57 seats they won

:35:09.:35:31.

One Conservative peer who thinks the party needs to look at all options

:35:32.:35:37.

in its female -- if its female numbers go down says element is

:35:38.:35:43.

simply missing trick. If 50% of our population is not being looked at,

:35:44.:35:49.

even, are we really using the best of our talent? Yes, women's life

:35:50.:35:56.

experiences are different, they are not superior, or inferior. They are

:35:57.:36:00.

different. But surely, those experiences need to be represented

:36:01.:36:05.

here at Westminster. That is the Parliamentary projection for

:36:06.:36:08.

gender, what about ethnicity? According to the last census in

:36:09.:36:14.

2011, 13% of people in the UK describe themselves as non-white.

:36:15.:36:19.

Labour currently has 16 MPs from black, Asian or minority

:36:20.:36:23.

backgrounds, with just over 6%. If they get the extra 60 seats, that

:36:24.:36:28.

figure goes up to 26, it was sent off their party. The Tories

:36:29.:36:31.

currently have 11 black ethic minority candidates, or 4% of the

:36:32.:36:37.

party. The biggest and next 29 seats, it would mean 14 black and

:36:38.:36:41.

ethnic minority MPs, again putting them on for percent. The Lib Dems do

:36:42.:36:47.

not have any black or ethic minority MPs, if they managed to cling on to

:36:48.:36:50.

the current number of seats they would have two, giving them a

:36:51.:36:56.

proportion of 4%. If they lost the 20 most vulnerable seats, it would

:36:57.:37:02.

go back down to zero. But even if you change the mix of gender and

:37:03.:37:06.

ethnicity in Parliament, would it solve the problem? Probably not.

:37:07.:37:10.

Only 10% of us have gone to a private, fee-paying school. 33% of

:37:11.:37:16.

new MPs in 2010 dead. A quarter of all MPs went to Oxford or

:37:17.:37:20.

Cambridge. Only a fifth of us went to any university. There is a huge

:37:21.:37:26.

disillusion in this place which has summoning people -- so many people

:37:27.:37:32.

who do not look like us. They cannot communicate in a way that we can

:37:33.:37:37.

relate to. If you look at turnout, at the moment, if you are an

:37:38.:37:41.

unskilled worker, you are 20 times less likely to turn out and vote.

:37:42.:37:45.

That is getting worse and worse at every election. That is the key,

:37:46.:37:49.

evidence does suggest that if a party reflects the society it exists

:37:50.:37:54.

within, it is more likely to get the votes they also badly need. -- they

:37:55.:38:00.

all so badly need. It is just about time for Sunday

:38:01.:38:07.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

:38:08.:38:13.

An official investigation into a head-on collision of

:38:14.:38:17.

two RAF Tornados over the Moray Firth in 2012 concludes that

:38:18.:38:22.

an on-board collision warning system would have saved lives.

:38:23.:38:28.

A sledgehammer to crack a nut - that's how one critic describes

:38:29.:38:31.

the Government's policy to give each youngster a named person

:38:32.:38:33.

We have a look at the history of the TV political debate.

:38:34.:38:49.

Air accident investigators have concluded that if

:38:50.:38:52.

an on-board collision warning system had been fitted to the RAF's fleet

:38:53.:38:55.

of Tornados, it would have saved lives when two of the jets crashed

:38:56.:38:59.

The BBC understands the finding is contained in

:39:00.:39:04.

a highly critical and long awaited report into the accident, due to be

:39:05.:39:08.

published tomorrow by the Military Aviation Authority ahead of the

:39:09.:39:11.

Our Westminster correspondent Tim Reid has this exclusive report.

:39:12.:39:23.

Being brought ashore, the wreckage of a collision between two Tornado

:39:24.:39:30.

jets over the Moray Firth in July 2012. The accident happened in misty

:39:31.:39:34.

conditions but investigators believe fatalities would have been avoided

:39:35.:39:38.

if the collision warning system, for years delayed or cancelled by the

:39:39.:39:44.

MOD, had been fitted. The aircrew died in the accident and the fourth

:39:45.:39:50.

was seriously injured. A long-awaited report by the Military

:39:51.:39:53.

Aviation Authority makes 50 recommendations, it says a new

:39:54.:39:55.

on-board one in system which was only approved months after the crash

:39:56.:40:00.

must be operational as soon as possible. Campaigners say they will

:40:01.:40:03.

step up their calls for a fatal accident enquiries to get to the

:40:04.:40:06.

full truth. The report is particularly critical of the

:40:07.:40:10.

procurement processes within the MOD, it talks of smoke and mirrors

:40:11.:40:15.

over costs of delaying and cancelling the system, which is only

:40:16.:40:18.

due to become operational in the Tornado fleet by the end of the

:40:19.:40:22.

year, but which is still not fitted the Typhoon aircraft, which are also

:40:23.:40:23.

based at RAF Lossiemouth. I'm joined now by the SNP defence

:40:24.:40:27.

spokesman, Angus Robertson, the House of Commons Defence Select

:40:28.:40:29.

Committee, and joins us from London. And as Robertson, this report is

:40:30.:40:41.

expected to say that lives could have been saved, had a collision

:40:42.:40:47.

warning system been installed. What is your reaction to that? Well, I

:40:48.:40:54.

think that has long been the view of experts, people who understand their

:40:55.:40:59.

worthiness, but for it to be confirmed this report, and we are

:41:00.:41:05.

still waiting for the final text, it would be a damning indictment on the

:41:06.:41:08.

approach that the Ministry of Defence takes to the safety of

:41:09.:41:13.

service personnel. It raises very serious questions about the

:41:14.:41:17.

decision-making process, which recommended the installation of a

:41:18.:41:20.

collision warning system in Tornado aircraft in the 1990s, yet they are

:41:21.:41:26.

still not installed. It also raises questions about why no

:41:27.:41:30.

recommendations have yet been made for the installation of a collision

:41:31.:41:34.

warning system on board Typhoon aircraft, which are operating at

:41:35.:41:40.

present in Scotland. This is not new, we lost far too many people in

:41:41.:41:46.

that accident and serious issues were raised about MOD airworthiness

:41:47.:41:52.

management then. This is not a new story, and it really does make a

:41:53.:41:57.

case or a fatal accident enquiry, so the MOD and people who make

:41:58.:42:02.

decisions within the MOD, like Liam Fox, have to answer for the delays

:42:03.:42:07.

in installation of collision warning system is, indeed for its

:42:08.:42:10.

cancellation at one stage. Our service personnel's lives, their

:42:11.:42:14.

safety, must come first, always. It does seem extraordinary that the

:42:15.:42:20.

installation of a collision one exist on Tornados was recommended 14

:42:21.:42:25.

years before this accident happened. Yet, based on her not been

:42:26.:42:32.

installed. That is right, they should have been installed. And it

:42:33.:42:35.

should have happened a long time ago. The big problem is, people have

:42:36.:42:43.

to make decisions on what they can afford. I would love to see far more

:42:44.:42:49.

money spent on defence. Too much of our defence policy is done sort of

:42:50.:42:54.

on the cheap. I would very much like to have seen a collision warning

:42:55.:42:59.

system put on the Tornado and indeed on the Typhoon. We have not had the

:43:00.:43:02.

result of this report yet, so I assume that what you see may be the

:43:03.:43:07.

truth, but I have not read it. But if it is someone who points the

:43:08.:43:12.

finger and says, if we had a collision warning system on this

:43:13.:43:16.

aircraft, this might not have happened, I totally endorse that. We

:43:17.:43:21.

require a collision avoidance system on all our aircraft. But Tornados is

:43:22.:43:28.

one thing, it seems one thing -- it seems extraordinary that the Typhoon

:43:29.:43:35.

aircraft, the next generation aircraft, they are not even

:43:36.:43:42.

installed on that. They are not just desirable on civilian aircraft, they

:43:43.:43:46.

are Monday on civil in aircraft that carry more than 20 passengers, yet

:43:47.:43:49.

we have these multi-million pound fighter aircraft that have not

:43:50.:43:57.

bothered to put them on. I agree. All I am saying is, frankly, we are

:43:58.:44:03.

in a martial profession in the Royal Belfast, and sometimes risks are

:44:04.:44:08.

taken. The people in the RAF do what they can with the equipment they

:44:09.:44:13.

have. It is a political decision, as do resources. And I agree with

:44:14.:44:18.

Angus, perhaps we should have put these collision warning systems on

:44:19.:44:22.

our craft a long time ago. But then my question is, what do we not put

:44:23.:44:26.

on the aeroplanes? Someone in the RAF who understands it much better

:44:27.:44:30.

than us next the decision on priorities. I do not know what the

:44:31.:44:37.

priorities were. Angus Robertson, I presume there is an economic case

:44:38.:44:40.

for these things, because there is the tragic loss of life in the 2012

:44:41.:44:44.

incident, but without sounding callous, these particular

:44:45.:44:52.

Eurofighter is, these cost millions of pounds each, it would surely be

:44:53.:44:55.

cheaper to put something in them that would stop losing that

:44:56.:45:01.

multi-million pound investment. I think it needs context, we must

:45:02.:45:04.

understand that there are families, friends and colleagues who are

:45:05.:45:08.

watching programmes like this, they have not seen the report but what

:45:09.:45:11.

they are about to be able to read is a detailed account of how their

:45:12.:45:15.

loved ones died. It is going to be extremely distressing for them. And

:45:16.:45:19.

everybody was my first thoughts need to be in that context. The point you

:45:20.:45:24.

raised about the value, the cost, both of equipment for the Tornado or

:45:25.:45:30.

the Typhoon, and the crew who have gone through years of training and

:45:31.:45:35.

have experience, that has cost a lot as well. All of this does beg the

:45:36.:45:39.

question, why is it that we would send some of our most highly trained

:45:40.:45:43.

service men and women, using some of the most expensive equipment that

:45:44.:45:49.

the RAF has at its disposal, regularly into exercises and

:45:50.:45:55.

low-flying, into operations, without a collision warning system, when we

:45:56.:45:58.

know it has been recommended for such a long time? Bob raises a

:45:59.:46:02.

question about the decisions that are made, and he is right, it would

:46:03.:46:07.

be very difficult decisions. I completely agree. But when it comes

:46:08.:46:11.

down to people's lives and people's lives being put at risk, or when we

:46:12.:46:15.

know that air proximity examples, when planes come close enough to

:46:16.:46:24.

collide, they happen on a very regular, they occur very regularly

:46:25.:46:27.

in Scottish airspace and the rest of the UK, when we know there are

:46:28.:46:30.

issues about the amount of engineering personnel who maintain

:46:31.:46:34.

the highest safety standards, given we know all this, and we also know

:46:35.:46:39.

that the recommendation to install a collision warning system was

:46:40.:46:43.

followed by decisions that slowed that down and at one stage stopped

:46:44.:46:48.

it, that was on Liam Fox's watch, all of this makes the case

:46:49.:46:55.

overwhelmingly for a fatal accident enquiry so the conclusions of this

:46:56.:47:00.

military and the -- military of poverty report are to conduct --

:47:01.:47:06.

Military Aviation Authority report are taken in detail. I should point

:47:07.:47:13.

out, we did ask Liam Fox to appear on the programme today, but he was

:47:14.:47:18.

unavailable. Angus Robertson,, you talked about the need for a fatal

:47:19.:47:22.

accident enquiry, think one of the organ as you will face, possibly

:47:23.:47:28.

tomorrow, is that -- one of the arguments you will face, if this is

:47:29.:47:33.

as critical as we are led to believe of procurement policy in the Royal

:47:34.:47:38.

Air Force, people will say, there is no need for a fatal accident

:47:39.:47:42.

enquiry, we have already got it, in effect. If that were the case, there

:47:43.:47:49.

would have been no need for justice -- for the judge to conduct a

:47:50.:47:54.

coroner's inquest into the loss of the Nimrod aircraft. There are many

:47:55.:47:58.

other examples that we know of. The loss in the Mull of Kintyre of the

:47:59.:48:05.

helicopter, which was followed by a fatal accident enquiry. We need to

:48:06.:48:09.

get to the bottom of this, people's lives were lost, millions of pounds

:48:10.:48:15.

worth of equivalent was lost and the decision-making systems in the MOD,

:48:16.:48:20.

it appears, have broken down. We need to understand this so it never

:48:21.:48:24.

happens again. We cannot ask our service personnel to put the lights

:48:25.:48:29.

on the line then lose it, because basic safety equipment was not

:48:30.:48:34.

installed in aircraft. Bob Stuart, would you agree that there needs to

:48:35.:48:38.

be a fatal accident enquiry following the publication of the

:48:39.:48:42.

report? I do not know, to be honest. I have not seen the report or the

:48:43.:48:46.

recommendations. But I do know one thing, the Royal Air Force and the

:48:47.:48:53.

Ministry of Defence will be taking note of what it says. The idea that

:48:54.:48:59.

we would not try and put urgently collision avoiding systems on all

:49:00.:49:03.

our fast jets seems to me strange will stop if it is not immediately

:49:04.:49:08.

done. But the problem is, we have got to make decisions on priorities.

:49:09.:49:13.

Can I point out that these very gallant young men, all of them, were

:49:14.:49:19.

doing their very best to fly as well as they could, to man their

:49:20.:49:23.

equipment as well as they could, but the equipment they had, they had to

:49:24.:49:30.

fly. They do not have a choice. No blame on them whatsoever. We all

:49:31.:49:33.

feel, as Angus and myself and everyone watching this programme

:49:34.:49:39.

does, how tragic the result was. But everyone, like myself and everyone

:49:40.:49:45.

in Parliament, really wants us to fly as safely as we can, but these

:49:46.:49:51.

aeroplanes and these aircrew are there to defend our country and

:49:52.:49:55.

sometimes they have to take risks in training, which is what they were

:49:56.:49:57.

doing. How A key support for families or big

:49:58.:50:08.

brother gone too far? That's the debate surrounding the Scottish

:50:09.:50:11.

Government's named person policy. Brought in under the Children and

:50:12.:50:15.

Young People Bill earlier this year, the policy gives every Scot under 18

:50:16.:50:18.

a designated person responsible for their well being. That person isn't

:50:19.:50:23.

a parent or relative but someone from the public sector. Some

:50:24.:50:26.

charities have welcomed the move as a step towards greater child

:50:27.:50:29.

protection, others feel parents' human rights are being infringed.

:50:30.:50:34.

Next month opponents will see a judicial review of the measure.

:50:35.:50:38.

Megan Paterson has been exploring the debate. The visit from the

:50:39.:50:49.

health visitor finds this baby happy, healthy and progressing well.

:50:50.:50:55.

But his health visitor serves another purpose, she is his named

:50:56.:51:01.

person, assigned by the government to monitor his well-being. Every

:51:02.:51:07.

family is different, every family dynamic is different as well. It is

:51:08.:51:12.

really a matter of making relationships and building on that.

:51:13.:51:17.

There is trust each way between the families and hoping you are giving

:51:18.:51:24.

them the help they are looking for in their child's's development up to

:51:25.:51:33.

the age of five. It has made a great difference. In the hospital he was

:51:34.:51:38.

taken to special care, we were in longer and when we came home it was

:51:39.:51:44.

good to have somebody. I was nervous because he had been encamped,

:51:45.:51:49.

special Kier that I was doing everything right. The decision was

:51:50.:52:01.

taken to roll out this system across the whole country. The Christian

:52:02.:52:06.

Institute have mounted a judicial review funded by members of the

:52:07.:52:13.

public. It gives huge powers to named persons to advise and talk to

:52:14.:52:17.

children without the parents even knowing about it or without their

:52:18.:52:25.

consent. The same state bodies will be involved in looking for all these

:52:26.:52:31.

families where there is no issue at all. Instead of actually finding

:52:32.:52:37.

that needle in the haystack actually making the haystack much bigger.

:52:38.:52:43.

That will find it much more difficult to get to that vulnerable

:52:44.:52:49.

child. They still have to respect family rights. Health visitors or

:52:50.:52:52.

teachers will usually take on the role of named person, people the

:52:53.:53:00.

families already know but some people feel it will be to the

:53:01.:53:08.

conflict of interests especially when children get ill. We saw our

:53:09.:53:15.

son's health decline quite rapidly and he was being forced to attend to

:53:16.:53:21.

school, we took the health professionals at their word that

:53:22.:53:26.

this was the thing to do, to keep him any routine, get him up and not

:53:27.:53:32.

let him rest. When we saw his health deteriorate rapidly we stepped in.

:53:33.:53:37.

The named person makes that extremely difficult for parents to

:53:38.:53:41.

do now because you have an extra layer of bureaucracy that makes it

:53:42.:53:45.

difficult for the parents to have the final word on the ear of their

:53:46.:53:57.

children. -- care of their children. At the moment people already have

:53:58.:54:03.

information where there are concerns about a child. This is about

:54:04.:54:08.

coordinating it and making sure the best use is made of the information

:54:09.:54:15.

for the care of the child. Most people will not need to use the

:54:16.:54:20.

named person in the way we go to the doctor. We do not use the doctor

:54:21.:54:26.

every day or every week but we go when we need them. We do not know

:54:27.:54:32.

when children or families may become vulnerable and need extra help but

:54:33.:54:36.

it is important that when this happens the children have a named

:54:37.:54:40.

person to go to to get the extra help or advice they need. With the

:54:41.:54:46.

campaign against named person stepping up over the summer the

:54:47.:54:51.

roll-out seems far from trouble-free. I am joined by the

:54:52.:54:59.

Minister for young people and the Conservative Gavin Brown. Proponents

:55:00.:55:10.

of this legislation are seeking a judicial view. -- review. They have

:55:11.:55:18.

asked you not to finalise the bill until a decision is made on the

:55:19.:55:23.

legal probe cess, are you prepared to do that? We are very clear we

:55:24.:55:31.

want to give children the best start in life. We are confident this goes

:55:32.:55:38.

through all the requirements to go through Parliament, it has already

:55:39.:55:42.

had royal assent as well. We see no reason to delay unless any good

:55:43.:55:49.

reason comes forward which we do not believe their Es. So you will go

:55:50.:55:59.

ahead? Implementation is in 2016. It has received support through the

:56:00.:56:03.

consultation and we are absolutely clear this complies with all the

:56:04.:56:06.

legal requirements that legislation needs. The argument for having a

:56:07.:56:14.

named person for every child, it is the every that seems to be the bone

:56:15.:56:19.

of contention, is that you never know which child will need help,

:56:20.:56:28.

that has some force, does it not? If you have universal provision for

:56:29.:56:32.

every person in Scotland between the age of zero and 18 it means you are

:56:33.:56:37.

expending resources on people who do not want it and do not need it. The

:56:38.:56:43.

money cannot be spent twice. The money that could be targeted on our

:56:44.:56:47.

most vulnerable is being spent on people who do not want it so I think

:56:48.:56:53.

it has the danger of being very inefficient. It is bending money on

:56:54.:56:58.

an enormous bureaucracy that does not help every single child. --

:56:59.:57:07.

spending money. I do not agree. It is about getting help for a family

:57:08.:57:16.

or child as early as possible. A named person could have access to

:57:17.:57:21.

the medical records of a child, isn't that correct? This does not

:57:22.:57:31.

interfere with parents rights at all. Couldn't they have that access

:57:32.:57:35.

without the rights of the parents being considered? It is help for

:57:36.:57:41.

families with everyone being brought on board. If the named person is not

:57:42.:57:48.

satisfied with the response of the parent they could have access to the

:57:49.:57:52.

medical records of the child without the parent's consent, is that

:57:53.:57:59.

correct? We are sharing information in a proportionate way that makes

:58:00.:58:05.

sure we have the best interests of children at the very heart of

:58:06.:58:10.

decision-making. Be honest and is to the question I have just asked is

:58:11.:58:15.

yes, in certain circumstances the named person could have access to

:58:16.:58:20.

information like that. Where the person feels that the children's

:58:21.:58:33.

safety is at risk they may have access but they live their robust

:58:34.:58:36.

framework to make sure this sharing of information is done in a robust

:58:37.:58:42.

and appropriate way. It could be access to private information about

:58:43.:58:45.

a child without the consent of the parent of that child. It provides a

:58:46.:58:53.

consistent framework. Do you think there is a question of parental

:58:54.:58:59.

rights here? Of course there is. These are the fundamental

:59:00.:59:03.

practicality issue. You are disrupting the autonomy of the

:59:04.:59:08.

family, moving the balance towards the state and away from parents. In

:59:09.:59:13.

many circumstances parents know best, the state does not know best,

:59:14.:59:20.

it does not have an unblemished record in this area. Responses came

:59:21.:59:23.

back from many organisations that their was very little consultation

:59:24.:59:37.

with parents. That is not true. There are a huge number of people

:59:38.:59:43.

and organisations already responsible for children in

:59:44.:59:48.

Scotland. What precisely is added by having a named person for every

:59:49.:59:54.

Child? It is about embedding good practice. If you are correct that it

:59:55.:00:00.

is not the gross infringement of the rights of parents, what does it do?

:00:01.:00:08.

The leader of the Conservative group in the Borders said this does not

:00:09.:00:15.

interfere with parental rights. If you have the teacher who is a named

:00:16.:00:22.

person, that teacher could have access to private medical records of

:00:23.:00:28.

the Child. The parent of that child is concerned and if that teacher at

:00:29.:00:36.

the child another named person could have access to private information

:00:37.:00:43.

on their child in an infinite gene, isn't there something slightly east

:00:44.:00:50.

German about this? Though, because it is about embedding good

:00:51.:00:55.

practice. This reduces bureaucracy, allows professionals to intervene

:00:56.:01:00.

where families most that need require additional support. It saves

:01:01.:01:05.

money. It is about wider reform to make sure we get help to families

:01:06.:01:09.

who need it and require it, with children who require it in a timely

:01:10.:01:14.

way because the cost to the public purse of not doing these things is

:01:15.:01:20.

if problems escalate into crises. That is something we want to avoid.

:01:21.:01:26.

This supports parents. In response to what parents have to what parents

:01:27.:01:29.

have told as they want through this parenting strategy. It has been very

:01:30.:01:33.

much done in consultation with parents. Thank you very much indeed.

:01:34.:01:39.

In a moment we will be looking at the history of TV political debate

:01:40.:01:50.

but first, the news. Good afternoon. Air accident investigators have

:01:51.:01:53.

concluded that if an onboard collision warning system had been

:01:54.:01:56.

fitted to the RAF's fleet of Tornados, it could have saved lives.

:01:57.:01:59.

Three airmen died when two jets crashed off the Caithness coast in

:02:00.:02:02.

July 2012. The Military Aviation Authority is due to publish a long

:02:03.:02:06.

awaited report into the accident tomorrow. The BBC understands the

:02:07.:02:10.

report is highly critical of the Ministry of Defence, which for years

:02:11.:02:13.

repeatedly delayed and cancelled the fitting of a collision warning

:02:14.:02:22.

system to the aircraft. The Treasury has claimed that Scottish Government

:02:23.:02:25.

plans to increase borrowing under independence would be incompatible

:02:26.:02:36.

with retaining the pound. The First Minister said initial borrowing

:02:37.:02:39.

would boost the economy and allow a sustainable cut in the deficit. He

:02:40.:02:45.

added that Scotland would start out being more prosperous per head than

:02:46.:02:50.

the UK, France or Japan. Danny Alexander said that boosting

:02:51.:02:52.

borrowing to fund higher spending would set Scotland on a different

:02:53.:03:03.

path from the rest of the UK. You cannot both have massive extra

:03:04.:03:09.

borrowing and ensure that currency union will take place. We have to

:03:10.:03:15.

accept that they will not be a currency union. They are not being

:03:16.:03:21.

transparent and open with the people of Scotland about their alternative

:03:22.:03:26.

plan. And, it's the second day of the Bannockburn Live festival,

:03:27.:03:28.

marking the 700th anniversary of the famous battle. Hundreds of actors

:03:29.:03:31.

are recreating the 1314 military encounter in which Robert the Bruce

:03:32.:03:34.

defeated the forces of Edward the Second. Musicians and comedians are

:03:35.:03:37.

performing over two days with more than 40 clans gathering for the

:03:38.:03:40.

occasion. Despite initial concern over slow ticket sales, organisers

:03:41.:03:48.

said yesterday's event sold out. The weather forecast now with

:03:49.:03:58.

Christopher. Generally a better day today compared with yesterday. Some

:03:59.:04:02.

sunshine developing but also the risk of one or two showers, and

:04:03.:04:06.

regularly down the south of the country. Feeling cooler where clouds

:04:07.:04:15.

are thicker. This evening and overnight the showers will tend to

:04:16.:04:18.

feed. And when exactly do you do it,

:04:19.:04:25.

if you decide to do it? TV debates are a big worry

:04:26.:04:30.

for politicians and the scrutiny is even more intense and instantaneous

:04:31.:04:33.

in the age of social media. Just when your campaign is going

:04:34.:04:37.

well, one clanger can give Timing is crucial too - when do

:04:38.:04:42.

you decide to meet for battle, and Andrew Kerr takes a look back

:04:43.:04:48.

at debates of the past. And this was a common 1960, when

:04:49.:05:10.

campaigning changed for ever. More than 60 million Americans tuned

:05:11.:05:13.

in to watch the first ever televised debate between the two tank --

:05:14.:05:19.

candidates running for presidency. I know what it means to be caught, I

:05:20.:05:23.

know what it means to see people who are unemployed. This party has

:05:24.:05:31.

produced Harry Truman, which supports and sustains these

:05:32.:05:35.

programmes I discussed tonight. Tanned and relaxed, JFK looked

:05:36.:05:40.

confident, compared to the shifty looking Nixon. TV viewers thought

:05:41.:05:44.

Kennedy had one, the radio listeners thought it was a close call in the

:05:45.:05:50.

race for the White House. In the last presidential election, there

:05:51.:05:54.

were three debates of varying formats. We welcome President Obama

:05:55.:06:02.

and Governor Romney. President Obama lost the first one, it was probably

:06:03.:06:09.

a draw in the second, and he won the final. These were key staging posts

:06:10.:06:12.

in the campaign. Popular with voters, even more popular with the

:06:13.:06:15.

media. These debates are embedded in popular culture. The renowned

:06:16.:06:26.

presidential series the West When she was the effort that goes into

:06:27.:06:34.

reparation. Why did you nominate him? Bite me, that's why. So, these

:06:35.:06:43.

debates are part and parcel of political life in the US. And even

:06:44.:06:53.

Scottish campaigns. In 2011, the main party leaders gathered in Perth

:06:54.:06:58.

ahead of the Holyrood election. Voters had their say and the rough

:06:59.:07:03.

idea was given when a possible referendum could be held. Tonight,

:07:04.:07:08.

who do you want to be your next Prime Minister? It was not until

:07:09.:07:18.

2010 that the UK party leaders could show off their wares in this type of

:07:19.:07:24.

forum. All tracked by the so-called war as voters expressed their views.

:07:25.:07:29.

These dates can so often provide an unexpected boost to those struggling

:07:30.:07:33.

to make a challenge. -- so-called war. -- worm. A word to the wise, it

:07:34.:07:48.

was not the debate, but there was an audience. And DV cameras were

:07:49.:07:56.

running. All right! We're all right! After that performance, act

:07:57.:08:05.

normally, don't be overconfident, and do wear a decent tie.

:08:06.:08:12.

Now it's time to have a look at what's happening in the week ahead.

:08:13.:08:16.

the Political editor of the Herald, Magnus Gardham,

:08:17.:08:19.

and Stephen McGinty from the Scotsman.

:08:20.:08:24.

Let's start with this story about Danny Alexander having written a

:08:25.:08:35.

letter, very stern one, but plans the Scottish Government have for

:08:36.:08:38.

increasing spending, should they get a Yes vote in a referendum and

:08:39.:08:43.

saying, hang on, that is not the same as the austerity programme,

:08:44.:08:48.

therefore not only can you not have a currency union, but it sure was

:08:49.:08:52.

you that you don't really believe you're going to get one. It is

:08:53.:08:56.

interesting that Danny Alexander has picked up on this. The SNP set out

:08:57.:09:05.

their borrowing plans, it is the case that they would burrow billions

:09:06.:09:09.

of pounds between 2016 and 2019, would amount to 2.4 billion alone,

:09:10.:09:15.

in order to boost the economy and move away from austerity. Danny

:09:16.:09:19.

Alexander has said, that is exactly the kind of policy divergence which

:09:20.:09:25.

took -- which would put some pressure on a currency union that it

:09:26.:09:28.

would be unsustainable. You might ask, why has he written a letter,

:09:29.:09:34.

given he has already ruled it out? But I think it is a sign that a

:09:35.:09:38.

currency union is not going to go away, the issue is not going to go

:09:39.:09:42.

away throughout this referendum campaign. Magnus is saying why did

:09:43.:09:48.

he write the letter? I suspect the politics of this is the dimension

:09:49.:09:53.

that he was to say, hang on, it only is this incompatible with a currency

:09:54.:09:56.

union, but in my view as Danny Alexander, you realise that, or you

:09:57.:10:01.

would not be saying this. He is effectively trying to make the point

:10:02.:10:05.

that the currency union has not been agreed, it is a major problem for

:10:06.:10:12.

the SNP, though -- that is the way it is being viewed by many people

:10:13.:10:15.

and he is time to drive that point home. Scottish Government would say

:10:16.:10:19.

that a better economic strategy than anything you whatever, with. The

:10:20.:10:25.

Treasury are constantly saying this is our predicted spending, this is

:10:26.:10:29.

what we're going to do, and then the future happens and you revise it. It

:10:30.:10:34.

will be interesting to see in the future whether this will invariably

:10:35.:10:39.

change. And whether it is on a par with what the SNP want to do anyway.

:10:40.:10:44.

A quick comment on the Tornados story. It does seem, it surprised me

:10:45.:10:50.

on a looked into this, that even the most advanced next generation

:10:51.:10:56.

aircraft in the RAF, as of now, do not have these collision warning

:10:57.:11:00.

system is installed. It is a very alarming finding. Clearly we will

:11:01.:11:06.

have to wait until tomorrow to hear more from the MOD to see what they

:11:07.:11:10.

are saying in response to that. In the meantime, I think it is hard to

:11:11.:11:15.

say a lot more than it is good that the report has finally been

:11:16.:11:17.

published, it is good for the families, obviously, and I think

:11:18.:11:22.

taking up from what we heard Angus Robertson saying, I can see pressure

:11:23.:11:26.

for a fatal accident enquiry beginning to grow. I think it is

:11:27.:11:33.

tragic that it happened and it must be very galling for the families.

:11:34.:11:37.

The fact that a collision warning system was suggested in the 1990s

:11:38.:11:43.

and nothing happens, the loved ones are now dead, it could have been

:11:44.:11:48.

avoided. I think it is tragic for them, and it is crucial that the MOD

:11:49.:11:55.

continue the roll-out of the system. The Armed Forces are featured in a

:11:56.:11:59.

very different way on the front pages of the papers. This is

:12:00.:12:05.

allegations that David Cameron was politicising Armed Forces Day by his

:12:06.:12:11.

speech and so allegations that leaflets are being circulate it by

:12:12.:12:15.

the MOD through the services which take a position on the referendum.

:12:16.:12:22.

It is interesting. He clearly said he was not going to politicise the

:12:23.:12:27.

day, it should be a neutral day, but politics will invariably come into

:12:28.:12:35.

this. This could be one of the last ones, and he used the opportunity to

:12:36.:12:41.

make a point. I think there was criticism of it, I was at the event

:12:42.:12:44.

yesterday and this book is an ex-soldiers afterwards and one of

:12:45.:12:48.

them wait -- made the point that this was the one day people come

:12:49.:12:51.

together and celebrate the Armed Forces and it was wrong for the

:12:52.:12:56.

Prime Minister to play politics with that day. What did you make of it? I

:12:57.:13:02.

am in two minds. Given the weight of symbolism around Armed Forces Day,

:13:03.:13:06.

out of me thinks it would be rather odd if the Prime Minister had not

:13:07.:13:09.

made a passing reference to the referendum. Another part of me

:13:10.:13:14.

thinks, given the weight of symbolism around Armed Forces Day,

:13:15.:13:18.

was it really necessary? What it does show is the heightened

:13:19.:13:22.

sensitivity around the referendum issue, and woke the type any

:13:23.:13:27.

politician who is contemplating politicising the Commonwealth Games.

:13:28.:13:31.

This thing about the leaflets, there are allegations from both sides that

:13:32.:13:34.

the Government is being used inappropriately. If Government is

:13:35.:13:40.

being used in a properly, both of them, we are seeing huge spending on

:13:41.:13:46.

the White Paper, huge spending on the Scotland Office leaflets. We

:13:47.:13:50.

will have to leave it there. That's all we have time for, I will be back

:13:51.:13:54.

at the same time next week. Until then, goodbye.

:13:55.:13:58.

With Gordon Brewer. Andrew Neil is joined by Europe Minister David Lidington, Conservative MEP Daniel Hannan and Lib Dem Charles Kennedy to discuss David Cameron's EU defeat. Also should there be a complete ban on smoking?


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS