15/01/2017 Sunday Politics Scotland


15/01/2017

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:37.:00:39.

Is the Prime Minister prepared to end Britain's membership

:00:40.:00:43.

of the EU's single market and its customs union?

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We preview Theresa May's big speech, as she seeks to unite the country

:00:47.:00:49.

Is the press a force for good or a beast that needs taming?

:00:50.:00:56.

As the Government ponders its decision, we speak to one

:00:57.:00:59.

of those leading the campaign for greater regulation.

:01:00.:01:03.

Just what kind of President will Donald Trump be?

:01:04.:01:09.

Piers Morgan, a man who knows him well, joins us live.

:01:10.:01:14.

In London this week: With the rail and Tube strikes bringing

:01:15.:01:15.

I'll ask the deputy leader of Scottish Labour whether there's

:01:16.:01:20.

any future for his party north of the border - or south.

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And to help me make sense of all that, three of the finest

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hacks we could persuade to work on a Sunday - Steve Richards,

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They'll be tweeting throughout the programme, and you can join

:01:38.:01:45.

So, Theresa May is preparing for her big Brexit speech on Tuesday,

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in which she will urge people to give up on "insults"

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and "division" and unite to build, quote, a "global Britain".

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Some of the Sunday papers report that the Prime Minister will go

:02:00.:02:02.

The Sunday Telegraph splashes with the headline: "May's big

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gamble on a clean Brexit", saying the Prime Minister

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will announce she's prepared to take Britain out of membership

:02:10.:02:12.

of the single market and customs union.

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The Sunday Times has a similar write-up -

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they call it a "clean and hard Brexit".

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The Brexit Secretary David Davis has also written a piece in the paper

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hinting that a transitional deal could be on the cards.

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And the Sunday Express says: "May's Brexit Battle Plan",

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explaining that the Prime Minister will get tough with Brussels

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and call for an end to free movement.

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Well, let's get some more reaction on this.

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I'm joined now from Cumbria by the leader

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of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.

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Mr Farron, welcome back to the programme. The Prime Minister says

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most people now just want to get on with it and make a success of it.

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But you still want to stop it, don't you? Well, I certainly take the view

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that heading for a hard Brexit, essentially that means being outside

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the Single Market and the customs union, is not something that was on

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the ballot paper last June. For Theresa May to adopt what is

:03:12.:03:15.

basically the large all Farage vision of Britain's relationship

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with Europe is not what was voted for last June. It is right for us to

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stand up and say that a hard Brexit is not the democratic choice of the

:03:25.:03:27.

British people, and that we should be fighting for the people to be the

:03:28.:03:30.

ones who have the Seat the end of this process, not have it forced

:03:31.:03:35.

upon them by Theresa May and David Davis. When it comes though dual

:03:36.:03:39.

position that we should remain in the membership of the Single Market

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and the customs union, it looks like you are losing the argument, doesn't

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it? My sense is that if you believe in being in the Single Market and

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the customs union are good things, I think many people on the leave site

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believe that, Stephen Phillips, the Conservative MP until the autumn who

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resigned, who voted for Leave but believe we should be in the Single

:04:02.:04:05.

Market, I think those people believe that it is wrong for us to enter the

:04:06.:04:10.

negotiations having given up on the most important part of it. If you

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really are going to fight Britain's corner, then you should go in there

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fighting the membership of the Single Market, not give up and

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whitefly, as Theresa May has done before we even start. -- and wave

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the white flag. Will you vote against regret Article 50 in the

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Commons? We made it clear that we want the British people to have the

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final Seat -- vote against triggering. Will you vote against

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Article 50. Will you encourage the House of Lords to vote against out

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Article 50? I don't think they will get a chance to vote. They will have

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a chance to win the deuce amendments. One amendment we will

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introduce is that there should be a referendum in the terms of the deal.

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It is not right that Parliament on Government, and especially not civil

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servants in Brussels and Whitehall, they should stitch-up the final

:05:01.:05:04.

deal. That would be wrong. It is right that the British people have

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the final say. I understand that as your position. You made it clear

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Britain to remain a member of the Single Market on the customs union.

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You accept, I assume, that that would mean remaining under the

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jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, continuing free movement

:05:21.:05:23.

of people, and the free-trade deals remained in Brussels' competence. So

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it seems to me that if you believe that being in the Single Market is a

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good thing, then you should go and argue for that. Whilst I believe

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that we're not going to get a better deal than the one we currently have,

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nevertheless it is up to the Government to go and argue for the

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best deal possible for us outside. You accept your position would mean

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that? It would mean certainly being in the Single Market and the customs

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union. It's no surprise to you I'm sure that the Lib Dems believe the

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package we have got now inside the EU is going to be of the Nutley

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better than anything we get from the outside, I accept the direction of

:06:01.:06:03.

travel -- is going to be the Nutley better. At the moment, what the

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Government are doing is assuming that all the things you say Drew,

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and there is no way possible for us arguing for a deal that allows in

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the Single Market without some of those other things. If they really

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believed in the best for Britain, you would go and argue for the best

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for Britain. Let's be clear, if we remain under the jurisdiction of the

:06:24.:06:29.

ECJ, which is the court that governs membership of the Single Market,

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continued free movement of people, the Europeans have made clear, is

:06:34.:06:38.

what goes with the Single Market. And free-trade deals remaining under

:06:39.:06:42.

Brussels' competence. If we accepted all of that is the price of

:06:43.:06:46.

membership of the Single Market, in what conceivable way with that

:06:47.:06:48.

amount to leaving the European Union? Well, for example, I do

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believe that being a member of the Single Market is worth fighting for.

:06:55.:06:58.

I personally believe that freedom of movement is a good thing. British

:06:59.:07:02.

people benefit from freedom of movement. We will hugely be hit as

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individuals and families and businesses. Mike I understand, but

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your writing of leaving... There the butt is that if you do except that

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freedom of movement has to change, I don't, but if you do, and if you are

:07:17.:07:20.

Theresa May, and the problem is to go and fight for the best deal,

:07:21.:07:25.

don't take it from Brussels that you can't be in the Single Market

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without those other things as well, you don't go and argue the case. It

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depresses me that Theresa May is beginning this process is waving the

:07:35.:07:37.

white flag, just as this morning Jeremy Corbyn was waving the white

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flag when it comes to it. We need a Government that will fight Britain's

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corner and an opposition that will fight the Government to make sure

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that it fights. Just explain to our viewers how we could remain members,

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members of the Single Market, and not be subject to the jurisdiction

:07:56.:08:01.

of the European court? So, first of all we spent over the last many,

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many years, the likes of Nigel Farage and others, will have argued,

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you heard them on this very programme, that Britain should

:08:09.:08:11.

aspire to be like Norway and Switzerland for example, countries

:08:12.:08:15.

that are not in the European Union but aren't the Single Market. It is

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very clear to me that if you want the best deal for Britain -- but are

:08:19.:08:23.

in the Single Market. You go and argue for the best deal. What is the

:08:24.:08:27.

answer to my question, you haven't answered it

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the question is, how does the Prime Minister go and fight for the best

:08:34.:08:37.

deal for Britain. If we think that being in the Single Market is the

:08:38.:08:42.

right thing, not Baxter -- not access to it but membership of it,

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you don't wave the white flag before you enter the negotiating room. I'm

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afraid we have run out of time. Thank you, Tim Farron.

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The leaks on this speech on Tuesday we have seen, it is interesting that

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Downing Street has not attempted to dampen them down this morning, in

:09:01.:09:08.

the various papers, do they tell us something new? Do they tell us more

:09:09.:09:12.

of the Goverment's aims in the Brexit negotiations? I think it's

:09:13.:09:15.

only a confirmation of something which has been in the mating really

:09:16.:09:18.

for the six months that she's been in the job. The logic of everything

:09:19.:09:25.

that she's said since last July, the keenness on re-gaining control of

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migration, the desire to do international trade deals, the fact

:09:30.:09:32.

that she is appointed trade Secretary, the logic of all of that

:09:33.:09:36.

is that we are out of the Single Market, quite probably out of the

:09:37.:09:39.

customs union, what will happen this week is a restatement of a fairly

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clear position anyway. I think Tim Farron is right about one thing, I

:09:44.:09:45.

don't think she will go into the Farron is right about one thing, I

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speech planning to absolutely definitively say, we are leaving

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those things. Because even if there is a 1% chance of a miracle deal,

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where you stay in the Single Market, somehow get exempted from free

:10:00.:10:01.

movement, it is prudent to keep hopes on that option as a Prime

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Minister. -- to keep open that option. She is being advised both by

:10:06.:10:10.

the diplomatic corps and her personal advisers, don't concede on

:10:11.:10:12.

membership of the Single Market yet. We know it's not going to happen,

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but let them Europeans knock us back on that,... That is probably the

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right strategy for all of the reasons that Jarlan outlined there.

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What we learned a bit today is the possibility of some kind of

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transition or arrangements, which David Davies has been talking about

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in a comment piece for one of the Sunday papers. My sense from

:10:37.:10:39.

Brexiteers aborting MPs is that they are very happy with 90% of the

:10:40.:10:46.

rhetoric -- Brexit sporting MPs. The rhetoric has not been dampened down

:10:47.:10:51.

by MPs, apart from this transitional arrangement, which they feel and two

:10:52.:10:55.

France, on the one front will encourage the very dilatory EU to

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spend longer than ever negotiating a deal, and on the other hand will

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also be exactly what our civil service looks for in stringing

:11:04.:11:07.

things out. What wasn't explained this morning is what David Davies

:11:08.:11:10.

means by transitional is not that you negotiate what you can in two

:11:11.:11:14.

years and then spend another five years on the matter is that a lot of

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the soul. He thinks everything has to be done in the two years, -- of

:11:18.:11:24.

the matter are hard to solve. But it would include transitional

:11:25.:11:28.

arrangements over the five years. What we are seeing in the build-up

:11:29.:11:31.

is the danger of making these kind of speeches. In a way, I kind of

:11:32.:11:37.

admired her not feeding the media machine over the autumn and the end

:11:38.:11:41.

of last year cars, as Janan has pointed out in his columns, she has

:11:42.:11:46.

actually said quite a lot from it, you would extrapolate quite a lot.

:11:47.:11:50.

We won't be members of the Single Market? She said that in the party

:11:51.:11:54.

conference speech, we are out of European court. Her red line is the

:11:55.:12:00.

end of free movement, so we are out of the Single Market. Why has she

:12:01.:12:05.

sent Liam Fox to negotiate all of these other deals, not that he will

:12:06.:12:09.

succeed necessarily, but that is the intention? We are still in the

:12:10.:12:13.

customs union. You can extrapolate what she will say perhaps more

:12:14.:12:16.

cautiously in the headlines on Tuesday. But the grammar of a big

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speech raises expectations, gets the markets worked up. So she is doing

:12:21.:12:24.

it because people have said that she doesn't know what she's on about.

:12:25.:12:27.

But maybe she should have resisted it. Very well, and she hasn't. The

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speech is on Tuesday morning. Now, the public consultation

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on press regulation closed this week, and soon ministers will have

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to decide whether to enact a controversial

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piece of legislation. Section 40 of the Crime

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and Courts Act, if implemented, could see newspapers forced to pay

:12:40.:12:41.

legal costs in libel and privacy If they don't sign up to an

:12:42.:12:44.

officially approved regulator. The newspapers say it's

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an affront to a free press, while pro-privacy campaigners say

:12:55.:12:57.

it's the only way to ensure a scandal like phone-hacking

:12:58.:12:59.

can't happen again. Ellie Price has been

:13:00.:13:01.

reading all about it. It was the biggest news

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about the news for decades, a scandal that involved household

:13:08.:13:11.

names, but not just celebrities. They've even hacked the phone

:13:12.:13:16.

of a murdered schoolgirl. It led to the closure

:13:17.:13:19.

of the News Of The World, a year-long public inquiry headed up

:13:20.:13:21.

by the judge Lord Justice Leveson, and in the end, a new press watchdog

:13:22.:13:31.

set up by Royal Charter, which could impose, among other

:13:32.:13:34.

things, million-pound fines. If this system is implemented,

:13:35.:13:36.

the country should have confidence that the terrible suffering

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of innocent victims like the Dowlers, the McCanns

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and Christopher Jefferies should To get this new plan rolling,

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the Government also passed the Crime and Courts Act,

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Section 40 of which would force publications who didn't sign up

:13:50.:13:53.

to the new regulator to pay legal costs in libel and privacy

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cases, even if they won. It's waiting for sign-off

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from the Culture Secretary. We've got about 50 publications

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that have signed up... This is Impress, the press regulator

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that's got the backing of the Royal Charter,

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so its members are protected from the penalties that would be

:14:10.:14:15.

imposed by Section 40. It's funded by the Formula One

:14:16.:14:18.

tycoon Max Mosley's I think the danger if we don't

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get Section 40 is that you have an incomplete

:14:24.:14:29.

Leveson project. I think it's very, very likely that

:14:30.:14:31.

within the next five or ten years there will be a scandal,

:14:32.:14:34.

there'll be a crisis in press standards, everyone will be

:14:35.:14:37.

saying to the Government, "Why on Earth didn't you sort things

:14:38.:14:39.

out when you had the chance?" Isn't Section 40 essentially

:14:40.:14:42.

just a big stick to beat We hear a lot about the stick part,

:14:43.:14:44.

but there's also a big juicy carrot for publishers and their journalists

:14:45.:14:52.

who are members of an They get huge new protections

:14:53.:14:55.

from libel threats, from privacy actions,

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which actually means they've got a lot more opportunity to run

:14:59.:15:00.

investigative stories. Impress has a big image problem -

:15:01.:15:09.

not a single national Instead, many of them

:15:10.:15:11.

are members of Ipso, the independent regulator set up

:15:12.:15:16.

and funded by the industry that doesn't seek the recognition

:15:17.:15:19.

of the Royal Charter. The male cells around 22,000 each

:15:20.:15:25.

day... There are regional titles too, who,

:15:26.:15:29.

like the Birmingham Mail, won't sign up to Impress,

:15:30.:15:31.

even if they say the costs are associated with Section 40

:15:32.:15:34.

could put them out of business. Impress has an umbilical cord that

:15:35.:15:38.

goes directly back to Government through the recognition setup

:15:39.:15:40.

that it has. Now, we broke free of the shackles

:15:41.:15:42.

of the regulated press when the stamp duty was revealed

:15:43.:15:45.

150 years ago. If we go back to this level

:15:46.:15:48.

of oversight, then I think we turn the clock back,

:15:49.:15:55.

150 years of press freedom. The responses from the public have

:15:56.:16:00.

been coming thick and fast since the Government

:16:01.:16:02.

launched its consultation In fact, by the time

:16:03.:16:04.

it closed on Tuesday, And for that reason alone,

:16:05.:16:07.

it could take months before a decision on what happens

:16:08.:16:11.

next is taken. The Government will also be minded

:16:12.:16:16.

to listen to its own MPs, One described it to me as Draconian

:16:17.:16:19.

and hugely damaging. So, will the current

:16:20.:16:25.

Culture Secretary's thinking be I don't think the Government

:16:26.:16:27.

will repeal section 40. What I'm arguing for is not

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to implement it, but it will remain on the statute book and if it then

:16:36.:16:39.

became apparent that Ipso simply was failing to work,

:16:40.:16:43.

was not delivering effective regulation and the press

:16:44.:16:46.

were behaving in a way which was wholly unacceptable,

:16:47.:16:50.

as they were ten years ago, then there might be an argument

:16:51.:16:55.

at that time to think well in that case we are going to have

:16:56.:16:58.

to take further measures, The future of section 40 might not

:16:59.:17:01.

be so black and white. I'm told a compromise could be met

:17:02.:17:06.

whereby the punitive parts about legal costs are dropped,

:17:07.:17:09.

but the incentives to join a recognised

:17:10.:17:13.

regulator are beefed up. But it could yet be some time

:17:14.:17:16.

until the issue of press freedom I'm joined now by Max Mosley -

:17:17.:17:18.

he won a legal case against the News Of The World after it revealed

:17:19.:17:29.

details about his private life, and he now campaigns

:17:30.:17:32.

for more press regulation. Are welcome to the programme. Let me

:17:33.:17:41.

ask you this, how can it be right that you, who many folk think have a

:17:42.:17:47.

clear vendetta against the British press, can bankroll a government

:17:48.:17:52.

approved regulator of the press? If we hadn't done it, nobody would,

:17:53.:17:56.

section 40 would never have come into force because there would never

:17:57.:18:00.

have been a regulator. It is absolutely wrong that a family trust

:18:01.:18:04.

should have to finance something like this. It should be financed by

:18:05.:18:09.

the press or the Government. If we hadn't done it there would be no

:18:10.:18:13.

possibility of regulation. But it means we end up with a

:18:14.:18:37.

regulator financed by you, as I say many people think you have a clear

:18:38.:18:41.

vendetta against the press. Where does the money come from? From a

:18:42.:18:44.

family trust, it is family money. You have to understand that somebody

:18:45.:18:46.

had to do this. I understand that. People like to know where the money

:18:47.:18:49.

comes from, I think you said it came from Brixton Steyn at one stage.

:18:50.:18:52.

Ages ago my father had a trust there but now all my money is in the UK.

:18:53.:18:56.

We are clear about that, but this is money that was put together by your

:18:57.:19:01.

father. Yes, my father inherited it from his father and his father. The

:19:02.:19:05.

whole of Manchester once belonged to the family, that's why there is a

:19:06.:19:10.

Mosley Street. That is irrelevant because as we have given the money,

:19:11.:19:15.

I have no control. If you do the most elementary checks into the

:19:16.:19:19.

contract between my family trust, the trust but finances Impress, it

:19:20.:19:29.

is impossible for me to exert any influence. It is just the same as if

:19:30.:19:34.

it had come from the National lottery. People will find it ironic

:19:35.:19:40.

that the money has come from historically Britain's best-known

:19:41.:19:48.

fascist. No, it has come from my family, the Mosley family. This is

:19:49.:19:53.

complete drivel because we have no control. Where the money comes from

:19:54.:19:57.

doesn't matter, if it had come from the national lottery it would be

:19:58.:20:03.

exactly the same. Impress was completely independent. But it

:20:04.:20:07.

wouldn't exist without your money, wouldn't it? But that doesn't give

:20:08.:20:11.

you influence. It might exist because it was founded before I was

:20:12.:20:17.

ever in contact with them. Isn't it curious then that so many leading

:20:18.:20:22.

light show your hostile views of the press? I don't think it is because I

:20:23.:20:27.

don't know a single member of the Impress board. The chairman I have

:20:28.:20:32.

met months. The only person I know is Jonathan Hayward who you had on

:20:33.:20:40.

just now. In one recent months he tweeted 50 attacks on the Daily

:20:41.:20:44.

Mail, including some calling for an advertising boycott of the paper. He

:20:45.:20:51.

also liked a Twitter post calling me Daily Mail and neofascist rag. Are

:20:52.:20:58.

these fitting for what is meant to be impartial regulator? The person

:20:59.:21:01.

you should ask about that is the press regulatory panel and they are

:21:02.:21:04.

completely independent, they reviewed the whole thing. You have

:21:05.:21:09.

probably produced something very selective, I have no idea but I am

:21:10.:21:13.

certain that these people are absolutely trustworthy and

:21:14.:21:17.

independent. It is not just Mr Hayward, we have a tonne of things

:21:18.:21:22.

he has tweeted calling for boycotts, remember this is the man that would

:21:23.:21:26.

be the regulator of these papers. He's the chief executive, that is a

:21:27.:21:32.

separate thing. The administration, the regulator. Many leading light

:21:33.:21:41.

show your vendetta of the press. I do not have a vendetta. Let's take

:21:42.:21:49.

another one. This person is on the code committee. Have a look at this.

:21:50.:22:03.

As someone with these views fit to be involved in the regulation of the

:22:04.:22:09.

press? You said I have a vendetta against the press, I do not, I

:22:10.:22:13.

didn't say that and it is completely wrong to say I have a vendetta. What

:22:14.:22:19.

do you think of that? I don't agree, I wouldn't ban the Daily Mail, I

:22:20.:22:25.

think it's a dreadful paper but I wouldn't ban it. Another Impress

:22:26.:22:37.

code committee said I hate the Daily Mail, I couldn't agree more, others

:22:38.:22:42.

have called for a boycott. Other people can say what they want and

:22:43.:22:46.

many people may think they are right but surely these views make them

:22:47.:22:52.

unfit to be partial regulators? I have no influence over Impress

:22:53.:22:57.

therefore I cannot say anything about it. You should ask them, not

:22:58.:23:04.

me. All I have done is make it possible for Impress to exist and

:23:05.:23:09.

that was the right thing to do. I'm asking you if people with these kind

:23:10.:23:14.

of views are fit to be regulators of the press. You would have to ask

:23:15.:23:19.

about all of their views, these are some of their views. A lot of people

:23:20.:23:25.

have a downer on the Daily Mail and the Sun, it doesn't necessarily make

:23:26.:23:30.

them party pre-. Why would newspapers sign up to a regulator

:23:31.:23:37.

run by what they think is run by enemies out to ruin them. If they

:23:38.:23:41.

don't like it they should start their own section 40 regulator. They

:23:42.:23:47.

could make it so recognised, if only they would make it independent of

:23:48.:23:52.

the big newspaper barons but they won't -- they could make Ipso

:23:53.:24:04.

recognised. Is the Daily Mail fascist? It certainly was in the

:24:05.:24:11.

1930s. Me and my father are relevant, this whole section 40

:24:12.:24:15.

issue is about access to justice. The press don't want ordinary people

:24:16.:24:20.

who cannot afford to bring an action against the press, don't want them

:24:21.:24:24.

to have access to justice. I can understand that but I don't

:24:25.:24:29.

sympathise. What would happen to the boss of Ofcom, which regulates

:24:30.:24:33.

broadcasters, if it described Channel 4 News is a Marxist scum? If

:24:34.:24:41.

the press don't want to sign up to Impress they can create their own

:24:42.:24:55.

regulator. If you were to listen we would get a lot further. The press

:24:56.:25:00.

should make their own Levenson compliant regulator, then they would

:25:01.:25:04.

have no complaints at all. Even papers like the Guardian, the

:25:05.:25:08.

Independent, the Financial Times, they show your hostility to tabloid

:25:09.:25:14.

journalism. They have refused to be regulated by Impress. I will say it

:25:15.:25:20.

again, the press could start their own regulator, they do not have to

:25:21.:25:25.

sign... Yes, but Levenson compliant one giving access to justice so

:25:26.:25:29.

people who cannot afford an expensive legal action have a proper

:25:30.:25:34.

arbitration service. The Guardian, the Independent, the Financial

:25:35.:25:38.

Times, they don't want to do that either. That would suggest there is

:25:39.:25:42.

something fatally flawed about your approach. Even these kind of papers,

:25:43.:25:53.

the Guardian, Impress is hardly independent, the head of... Andrew,

:25:54.:26:00.

I am sorry, you are like a dog with a bone. The press could start their

:26:01.:26:08.

own regulator, then people like the Financial Times, the Guardian and so

:26:09.:26:11.

one could decide whether they wanted to join or not but what is

:26:12.:26:15.

absolutely vital is that we should have a proper arbitration service so

:26:16.:26:19.

that people who cannot afford an expensive action have somewhere to

:26:20.:26:24.

go. This business of section 40 which you want to be triggered which

:26:25.:26:28.

would mean papers that didn't sign up to Impress could be sued in any

:26:29.:26:32.

case and they would have to pay potentially massive legal costs,

:26:33.:26:40.

even if they win. Yes. This is what the number of papers have said about

:26:41.:26:44.

this, if section 40 was triggered, the Guardian wouldn't even think of

:26:45.:26:51.

investigation. The Sunday Times said it would not have even started to

:26:52.:26:56.

expose Lance Armstrong. The Times journalist said he couldn't have

:26:57.:26:58.

done the Rotherham child abuse scandal. What they all come it is a

:26:59.:27:05.

full reading of section 40 because that cost shifting will only apply

:27:06.:27:12.

if, and I quote, it is just and equitable in all the circumstances.

:27:13.:27:16.

I cannot conceive of any High Court judge, for example the Lance

:27:17.:27:20.

Armstrong case or the child abuse, saying it is just as equitable in

:27:21.:27:24.

all circumstances the newspaper should pay these costs. Even the

:27:25.:27:30.

editor of index on censorship, which is hardly the Sun, said this would

:27:31.:27:35.

be oppressive and they couldn't do what they do, they would risk being

:27:36.:27:42.

sued by warlords. No because if something unfortunate, some really

:27:43.:27:46.

bad person sues them, what would happen is the judge would say it is

:27:47.:27:49.

just inequitable normal circumstances that person should

:27:50.:27:53.

pay. Section 40 is for the person that comes along and says to a big

:27:54.:27:57.

newspaper, can we go to arbitration because I cannot afford to go to

:27:58.:28:02.

court. The big newspaper says no. That leaves less than 1% of the

:28:03.:28:07.

population with any remedy if the newspapers traduce them. It cannot

:28:08.:28:13.

be right. From the Guardian to the Sun, and including Index On

:28:14.:28:18.

Censorship, all of these media outlets think you are proposing a

:28:19.:28:23.

charter for conmen, warlords, crime bosses, dodgy politicians,

:28:24.:28:26.

celebrities with a grievance against the press. I will give you the final

:28:27.:28:36.

word to address that. It is pure guff and the reason is they want to

:28:37.:28:40.

go on marking their own homework. The press don't want anyone to make

:28:41.:28:44.

sure life is fair. All I want is somebody who has got no money to be

:28:45.:28:48.

able to sue in just the way that I can. All right, thanks for being

:28:49.:28:51.

with us. The doctors' union,

:28:52.:28:55.

the British Medical Association, has said the Government

:28:56.:28:56.

is scapegoating GPs in England The Government has said GP surgeries

:28:57.:28:58.

must try harder to stay open from 8am to 8pm,

:28:59.:29:02.

or they could lose out on funding. The pressure on A services

:29:03.:29:05.

in recent weeks has been intense. It emerged this week that 65

:29:06.:29:08.

of the 152 Health Trusts in England had issued an operational pressure

:29:09.:29:11.

alert in the first At either level three,

:29:12.:29:13.

meaning major pressures, or level four, indicating

:29:14.:29:20.

an inability to deliver On Monday, Health Secretary Jeremy

:29:21.:29:22.

Hunt told the Commons that the number of people using A

:29:23.:29:27.

had increased by 9 million But that 30% of those

:29:28.:29:31.

visits were unnecessary. He said that the situation

:29:32.:29:39.

at a number of Trusts On Tuesday, the Royal College

:29:40.:29:41.

of Physicians wrote to the Prime Minister saying

:29:42.:29:46.

the health service was being paralysed by spiralling demand,

:29:47.:29:48.

and urging greater investment. On Wednesday, the Chief Executive

:29:49.:29:54.

of NHS England, Simon Stevens, told a Select Committee that NHS

:29:55.:29:57.

funding will be highly constrained. And from 2018, real-terms spending

:29:58.:30:03.

per person would fall. The Prime Minister described

:30:04.:30:07.

the Red Cross's claim that A was facing a "humanitarian crisis"

:30:08.:30:11.

as "irresponsible and overblown". And the National Audit Office issued

:30:12.:30:15.

a report that found almost half, 46%, of GP surgeries closed at some

:30:16.:30:18.

point during core hours. Yesterday, Mrs May signalled her

:30:19.:30:25.

support for doctors' surgeries opening from 8am to 8pm every day

:30:26.:30:29.

of the week, in order to divert To discuss this, I'm joined

:30:30.:30:32.

now by the Conservative MP Maria Caulfield -

:30:33.:30:39.

she was an NHS nurse in a former life - and Clare Gerada,

:30:40.:30:42.

a former chair of the Royal College Welcome to you both. So, Maria

:30:43.:30:53.

Caulfield, what the Government is saying, Downing Street in effect is

:30:54.:30:57.

saying that GPs do not work hard enough and that's the reason why A

:30:58.:31:01.

was under such pressure? No, I don't think that is the message, I think

:31:02.:31:05.

that is the message that the media have taken up. That is not the

:31:06.:31:08.

expression that we want to give. I still work as a nurse, I know how

:31:09.:31:14.

hard doctors work in hospitals and GP practices. When the rose 30% of

:31:15.:31:18.

people turning up at A for neither an accident or an emergency, we do

:31:19.:31:23.

need to look at alternative. Where is the GPs' operability in this? We

:31:24.:31:28.

know from patients that if they cannot get access to GPs, they will

:31:29.:31:31.

do one of three things. They will wait two or three weeks until they

:31:32.:31:34.

can get an appointment, they will forget about the problem altogether,

:31:35.:31:39.

which is not good, we want patients to be getting investigations at

:31:40.:31:42.

early stages, or they will go to A And that is a problem. I'm not

:31:43.:31:51.

quite sure what the role that GPs play in this. What is your response

:31:52.:31:54.

in that? I think about 70% of patients that I see should not be

:31:55.:31:57.

seen by me but should still be seen by hospital consultants. If we look

:31:58.:32:01.

at it from GPs' eyes and not from hospital's eyes, because that is

:32:02.:32:06.

what it is, we might get somewhere. Tomorrow morning, every practice in

:32:07.:32:10.

England will have about 1.5 GPs shot, that's not even counting if

:32:11.:32:14.

there is traffic problems, sickness or whatever. -- GPs shot. We cannot

:32:15.:32:19.

work any harder, I cannot physically, emotionally work any

:32:20.:32:26.

harder. We are open 12 hours a day, most of us, I run practices open 365

:32:27.:32:29.

days per year 24 hours a day. I don't understand this. It is one

:32:30.:32:34.

thing attacking me as a GP from working hard enough, but it is

:32:35.:32:38.

another thing saying that GPs as a profession and doing what they

:32:39.:32:41.

should be doing. Let me in National Audit Office has coming up with

:32:42.:32:46.

these figures showing that almost half of doctors' practices are not

:32:47.:32:53.

open during core hours at some part of the week. That's where the

:32:54.:32:57.

implication comes, that they are not working hard enough. What do you say

:32:58.:33:02.

to that? I don't recognise this. I'm not being defensive, I'm just don't

:33:03.:33:06.

recognise it. There are practices working palliative care services,

:33:07.:33:09.

practices have to close home visits if they are single-handed, some of

:33:10.:33:13.

us are working in care homes during the day. They may shot for an hour

:33:14.:33:16.

in the middle of the data will sort out some of the prescriptions and

:33:17.:33:23.

admin -- they may shot. My practice runs a number of practices across

:33:24.:33:25.

London. If we shut during our contractual hours we would have NHS

:33:26.:33:30.

England coming down on us like a tonne of bricks. Maria Caulfield,

:33:31.:33:33.

I'm struggling to understand, given the problems the NHS faces,

:33:34.:33:37.

particularly in our hospitals, what this has got to do with the

:33:38.:33:42.

solution? Obviously there are GP practices that are working, you

:33:43.:33:46.

know, over and above the hours. But there are some GP practices, we know

:33:47.:33:49.

from National Audit Office, there are particular black sports --

:33:50.:33:54.

blackspots in the country that only offer services for three hours a

:33:55.:33:57.

week. That's causing problems if they cannot get to see a GP they

:33:58.:34:02.

will go and use A Nobody is saying that this measure would solve

:34:03.:34:06.

problems at A, it would address one small part of its top blog we

:34:07.:34:09.

shouldn't be starting this, as I keep saying, please to this from

:34:10.:34:15.

solving the problems at A We should be starting it from solving

:34:16.:34:18.

the problems of the patients in their totality, the best place they

:34:19.:34:23.

should go, not from A This really upsets me, as a GP I am there to be

:34:24.:34:29.

a proxy A doctor. I am a GP, a highly skilled doctor, looking after

:34:30.:34:33.

patients from cradle to grave across the physical, psychological and

:34:34.:34:39.

social, I am not an A doctor. I don't disagree with that, nobody is

:34:40.:34:42.

saying that GPs are not working hard enough. You just did, actually,

:34:43.:34:47.

about some of them. In some practices, what we need to see, it's

:34:48.:34:53.

not just GPs in GP surgeries, it is advanced nurse practitioners,

:34:54.:34:55.

pharmacists. It doesn't necessarily need to be all on the GPs. I think

:34:56.:35:00.

advanced nurse practitioners are in short supply. Position associate or

:35:01.:35:05.

go to hospital, -- physician associates. We have very few

:35:06.:35:09.

trainees, junior doctors in general practice, unlike hospitals, which

:35:10.:35:12.

tend to have some slack with the junior doctor community and

:35:13.:35:17.

workforce. This isn't an argument, this is about saying, let's stop

:35:18.:35:20.

looking at the National health system as a National hospital

:35:21.:35:26.

system. GPs tomorrow will see about 1.3 million patients. That is a lot

:35:27.:35:30.

of thoughtful. A lot of activity with no resources. If you wanted the

:35:31.:35:36.

GPs to behave better, in your terms, when you allocated more money to

:35:37.:35:40.

GPs, part of the reforms, because that's where it went, shouldn't you

:35:41.:35:43.

have targeted it more closely to where they want to operate? That is

:35:44.:35:47.

exactly what the Prime Minister is saying, extra funding is being made

:35:48.:35:52.

available by GPs to extend hours and services. If certain GP practices

:35:53.:35:55.

cannot do that, the money will follow the patient to where they

:35:56.:35:59.

move onto. We have no doctors to do it. I was on a coach last week, the

:36:00.:36:03.

coach driver stopped in the service station for an hour, they were

:36:04.:36:06.

stopping for a rest. We cannot do it. Even if you gave us millions

:36:07.:36:15.

more money, and thankfully NHS is recognising that we need a solution

:36:16.:36:17.

through the five-day week, we haven't got the doctors to deliver

:36:18.:36:20.

this. It would take a while to get them? That's my point, that's why we

:36:21.:36:23.

need to be using all how care professional. Even if you got this

:36:24.:36:27.

right, would it make a difference to what many regard as the crisis in

:36:28.:36:31.

our hospitals? I think it would. If you look at patients, they just want

:36:32.:36:35.

to go to a service that will address the problems. In Scotland for

:36:36.:36:39.

example, pharmacists have their own patient list. Patients go and see

:36:40.:36:43.

the pharmacists first. There are lots of conditions, for example if

:36:44.:36:47.

you want anticoagulants, you don't necessarily need to see a doctor, a

:36:48.:36:51.

pharmacist can manage that and free up the doctor in other ways. The

:36:52.:36:56.

Prime Minister has said that if things do not change she is

:36:57.:36:58.

threatening to reduce funding to things do not change she is

:36:59.:37:01.

doctors who do not comply. Can you both agree, that is probably an

:37:02.:37:04.

empty threat, that's not going to happen? I hope it's an empty threat.

:37:05.:37:09.

We're trying our best. People like me in my profession, the seniors in

:37:10.:37:13.

our profession, are really trying to pull up morale and get people into

:37:14.:37:17.

general practice, which is a wonderful profession, absolutely

:37:18.:37:21.

wonderful place to be. But slapping us off and telling us that we are

:37:22.:37:25.

lazy really doesn't help. I really don't think anybody is doing that.

:37:26.:37:29.

We have run out of time, but I'm certain that we will be back to the

:37:30.:37:32.

subject before this winter is out. It's just gone 11:35am,

:37:33.:37:34.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:37:35.:37:37.

in Scotland, who leave us now Good morning and welcome

:37:38.:37:43.

to Sunday Politics Scotland. Both Kezia Dugdale and Jeremy Corbyn

:37:44.:37:44.

want to relaunch their respective bits of the Labour Party -

:37:45.:37:49.

but will the public I'll be speaking to

:37:50.:37:51.

the deputy leader of The head of the BMA tells us the NHS

:37:52.:37:56.

is approaching system breakdown. And new rules to stop

:37:57.:38:03.

the concentration of betting shops But is it enough to stop

:38:04.:38:06.

problem gambling? After being relegated to the third

:38:07.:38:13.

party in the Scottish Parliament, Labour have been looking

:38:14.:38:16.

to rebuild their support. But with the negative headlines

:38:17.:38:18.

about the party down south and the party up here struggling

:38:19.:38:21.

to gain a hearing from its former supporters, is there a future

:38:22.:38:24.

for Scottish Labour? With council elections coming up,

:38:25.:38:27.

it's rather an urgent I'm joined now by the Deputy leader

:38:28.:38:30.

of Scottish Labour, Alex Rowley. Can I just ask you something quickly

:38:31.:38:43.

about this Constitutional Convention idea that you'd got -

:38:44.:38:50.

is this going to be set up now? Yeah, Jeremy Corbyn is in Scotland

:38:51.:38:55.

this week, it he will be setting out his view in terms of a UK

:38:56.:39:00.

constitutional convention. The Scottish Labour Party will input

:39:01.:39:02.

constitutional convention. The into that. We've said we need to

:39:03.:39:06.

look at, not Scotland, but the rest of the United Kingdom, so yes, that

:39:07.:39:10.

will come forward. He did an interview with Andrew Marr

:39:11.:39:16.

this morning, and he said, we're going to be continuing with

:39:17.:39:19.

discussions in Scotland next Friday, we're setting up a constitutional

:39:20.:39:24.

convention, is that when we get towards the general election, we

:39:25.:39:31.

will be in some degree of consensus. It was Labour who set up their

:39:32.:39:35.

Constitutional Convention in Scotland which led to the Scottish

:39:36.:39:38.

parliament. What is clear is that the UK constitution is no longer in

:39:39.:39:45.

line with where Government right across the UK is.

:39:46.:39:48.

I thought it was an idea that you might do a few won an election. But

:39:49.:39:53.

you say this is great to be set up in your starting to plan for it?

:39:54.:39:59.

Absolutely, we will be asking other political parties, and Jeremy Corbyn

:40:00.:40:01.

will say some thing about that. This is the approach that Labour took to

:40:02.:40:04.

set up a Scottish parliament, to set is the approach that Labour took to

:40:05.:40:09.

up and all Haydn party convention and for the wider society.

:40:10.:40:17.

This would be up in morning when? Jeremy Corbyn will speak for himself

:40:18.:40:21.

later in the week, the discussions within Scottish Labour is that we

:40:22.:40:25.

need to get that convention up and running as soon as possible.

:40:26.:40:31.

OK. Jeremy Corbyn said this week he was not wedded to free movement of

:40:32.:40:36.

labour, something you don't seem to agree with? Emily Thornley said this

:40:37.:40:43.

morning, Labour wouldn't die in a ditch for it?

:40:44.:40:48.

There is concern right across the United Kingdom in terms of

:40:49.:40:51.

immigration. What politicians should learn is that we should not run away

:40:52.:40:56.

from that discussion or debate. What I and Scottish Labour has said is

:40:57.:41:00.

that, in Scotland, economic migration has been good for

:41:01.:41:05.

Scotland. Looking ahead, we need to have economic migration in Scotland.

:41:06.:41:10.

Having that discussion about post-Brexit, what is the best way

:41:11.:41:14.

forward, what we're saying, the migration for Scotland is actually

:41:15.:41:20.

something our economy needs. So if Nicola Sturgeon and the

:41:21.:41:24.

Scottish Government try to get some sort of control over immigration as

:41:25.:41:28.

part of a deal in Brexit, you would support them?

:41:29.:41:31.

We need to see what Theresa may has to say this week. We need to see

:41:32.:41:34.

what the Brexit deal will be on the table. Scotland had input into that

:41:35.:41:39.

discussion. In principle, it you wouldn't mind

:41:40.:41:45.

Scotland having some sort of control over immigration?

:41:46.:41:48.

We know we're going to be leaving the European Union, we don't know

:41:49.:41:51.

what that deal will mean, it may mean there is some kind of

:41:52.:41:55.

immigration policy. We need to look at what Scotland's interests were,

:41:56.:42:00.

and how best Scotland but that our interests of forward in terms of

:42:01.:42:04.

economic migrations, which we need in Scotland.

:42:05.:42:08.

You wouldn't, in principle, be against Scotland having some sort of

:42:09.:42:11.

control over immigration? We can look at that. There was a

:42:12.:42:16.

group of MPs last week suggested that may be possible. We need to be

:42:17.:42:26.

clear that, in Scotland, we do need to have more people coming to work

:42:27.:42:28.

in Scotland. Economic migration has been good for Scotland. It is a

:42:29.:42:31.

necessary step, moving forward. We need to have up policy which best

:42:32.:42:35.

suits Scotland within the United Kingdom.

:42:36.:42:38.

The news agenda has been dominated by the speech from Theresa May where

:42:39.:42:43.

it is said she's good at wind policy that means that Britain leads the

:42:44.:42:46.

single market and customs union. Do you support the Scottish

:42:47.:42:50.

Government's efforts to get some, I don't UK deal to get the UK to stay

:42:51.:42:55.

in the single market, or failing that, Scotland to remain?

:42:56.:43:00.

I feel in the best interests of the United Kingdom we need to remain in

:43:01.:43:04.

the single market. Failing that, we need to look at the options for

:43:05.:43:09.

Scotland. We need to recognise that our biggest market is the rest of

:43:10.:43:13.

the United Kingdom. Sure, but I'm not arguing about

:43:14.:43:19.

independence, I'm asking you whether you support the efforts to get a

:43:20.:43:24.

deal for Scotland? It would be best have a balance we

:43:25.:43:32.

can achieve both. We have said to the Scottish Government we will work

:43:33.:43:35.

alongside them to get the best deal possible for Scotland within the

:43:36.:43:39.

United Kingdom. You said in July last year, you

:43:40.:43:46.

wouldn't be opposed to having another independence referendum. If

:43:47.:43:51.

that still your view? We get caught up too much in the

:43:52.:43:55.

question of referendum. We just had Brexit, we need to regret the best

:43:56.:43:59.

deal, going forward, for Scotland in the United Kingdom.

:44:00.:44:04.

But the Scottish Government has said it is highly likely?

:44:05.:44:09.

We need to listen to the Scottish people, since Brexit, poll after

:44:10.:44:12.

poll has shown the Scottish people don't want another referendum now.

:44:13.:44:18.

I use an you've change your mind? No, what're singers we need the best

:44:19.:44:23.

possible deal for Brexit, and we can do that by ruling out the

:44:24.:44:24.

possibility of a referendum within do that by ruling out the

:44:25.:44:27.

the lifetime of this Parliament, so you can see what the best deal for

:44:28.:44:29.

Scotland, coming out of the European Union.

:44:30.:44:34.

Let me reiterate to you what you said, you said, I would not oppose

:44:35.:44:38.

another independence referendum. I accept that the SNP were clear and

:44:39.:44:43.

there is manifesto that the Scottish parliament would have the right to

:44:44.:44:48.

hold one it was a change in circumstances since 2014, such as

:44:49.:44:53.

Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will?

:44:54.:44:55.

And I accept that the majority of people in Scotland had made clear

:44:56.:44:58.

time and time again since that referendum, since the European

:44:59.:45:02.

referendum, that we should take another referendum off the table for

:45:03.:45:06.

now, and should be looking at getting the best deal possible for

:45:07.:45:12.

Scotland within the United Kingdom. But you don't contradict that the

:45:13.:45:16.

SNP have the right to hold one? Not a contradiction, but we should

:45:17.:45:22.

listen to the people of Scotland. Poll after poll, and indeed on the

:45:23.:45:27.

doorsteps, I was on the doorsteps of Fife yesterday, campaigning, and

:45:28.:45:29.

people are saying that we should not have another referendum. We should

:45:30.:45:33.

find out what the best way forward is for Scotland as part of the

:45:34.:45:36.

Brexit deal. Kezia Dugdale said on this programme

:45:37.:45:40.

in September 2015 that she didn't want to shut down debate in the and

:45:41.:45:47.

collected Labour members and is politicians should be able to

:45:48.:45:50.

campaign for independence there is another referendum. Is that still

:45:51.:45:53.

the case? What the Labour Party in Scotland

:45:54.:45:57.

are saying is that we should take the question of referendum off the

:45:58.:46:01.

table for this Parliament. But there is another one, and Nicola

:46:02.:46:06.

Sturgeon says it is highly likely. If I'm a Labour MSP, can I campaign

:46:07.:46:11.

for independence? What we're saying is that there are

:46:12.:46:14.

two polar opposite is being presented. The SNP want

:46:15.:46:17.

independence, which we don't believe would be in Scotland's best

:46:18.:46:22.

interests. But Kezia Dugdale says Webber MSPs

:46:23.:46:27.

will be able to campaign for it? If I'm Labour Party member, will I be

:46:28.:46:32.

allowed to campaign for independence?

:46:33.:46:34.

In February, we will go to conference and put forward an

:46:35.:46:37.

alternative to both those point of use, which will be that we need to

:46:38.:46:40.

move forward and Scotland needs to remain part of the United Kingdom,

:46:41.:46:45.

reject independence, reject the status quo in Westminster and go for

:46:46.:46:48.

a more federal system. We're going to be asking our conference...

:46:49.:46:56.

But if I'm a Labour MSP remember, can I campaign for independence?

:46:57.:47:01.

I would expect Labour members and MSPs to support the position our

:47:02.:47:04.

conference takes on fabric. So they don't come to favour

:47:05.:47:09.

independence, you're not allowed to campaign for its?

:47:10.:47:12.

I would expect MSPs to endorse the position our conference takes in

:47:13.:47:20.

February. We're Democratic party. You've had dozens of positions on

:47:21.:47:23.

independence, both you and Kezia Dugdale, over the past 12 months. At

:47:24.:47:28.

one point, Kezia Dugdale said you might even vote for independence.

:47:29.:47:32.

You're oh over the place. What we need is an alternative to

:47:33.:47:40.

the status quo in Westminster. Can you understand the public

:47:41.:47:43.

thinking you aren't part of the debate?

:47:44.:47:46.

We are looking towards a position on as federal setup. I would expect

:47:47.:47:54.

that if that's Labour Party policy is decided on their break, that MSPs

:47:55.:47:58.

would support that policy. So they can to campaign for

:47:59.:48:02.

independence. Would expect them to support party

:48:03.:48:08.

policy. We will put forward a proposal, in fabric, for a federal

:48:09.:48:12.

approach to the United Kingdom. If you want to get back on the

:48:13.:48:16.

agenda for Labour in Scotland, there are things you to sort out. The

:48:17.:48:21.

Scottish Secretary, David Anderson, wonderful chap I'm surely years,

:48:22.:48:26.

represent a constituency in Newcastle. Is that a satisfactory

:48:27.:48:28.

state of affairs? The first thing we need to do is

:48:29.:48:31.

have a clear policy on the constitution.

:48:32.:48:37.

Is it acceptable that Labour's shadow Scottish Secretary is from

:48:38.:48:40.

Newcastle? As the result of a general election

:48:41.:48:46.

will be lost all but one seat in Scotland, we don't have that

:48:47.:48:49.

position. We are in that position because we have not been consistent

:48:50.:48:53.

on policy on the constitution. That is the first and we need to address,

:48:54.:48:57.

and we will address it at our conference and debris, where we set

:48:58.:49:00.

out very clearly our position on the constitution.

:49:01.:49:06.

But if you're all going to come together, wouldn't be more sensible

:49:07.:49:10.

for Ian Murray to rejoin Jeremy Corbyn's team?

:49:11.:49:13.

That is the matter for those two gentlemen. We are where we are and

:49:14.:49:20.

in a situation we are in. We've got one MP in Scotland, and it is for

:49:21.:49:24.

that MP and the leader of the party at UK level to decide if he is bound

:49:25.:49:28.

to be part of that Shadow Cabinet. Banca very much.

:49:29.:49:36.

This week the Health Secretary Shona Robison will make a statement

:49:37.:49:39.

to MSPs about the delay in the opening of a network

:49:40.:49:41.

The issue prompted some lively exchanges at last week's

:49:42.:49:44.

But, after weeks of headlines detailing problems at NHS

:49:45.:49:48.

hospitals in England, what is the state of

:49:49.:49:49.

Just before we came on air, I spoke to Dr Peter Bennie, who's the chair

:49:50.:49:54.

You have spoken about how spending on the health service has stagnated

:49:55.:50:08.

since the financial crash. Politicians say it has increased in

:50:09.:50:12.

real terms. I assume what you mean is that that may be true but it is

:50:13.:50:15.

not increasing in a way that the demand of the services increasing?

:50:16.:50:22.

Yes. The requirement that health service has is at least 4% increase

:50:23.:50:28.

just a standstill, that is primarily because of the cost of drugs and the

:50:29.:50:32.

cost of new technology. Factoring also that as each year goes by, the

:50:33.:50:37.

population grows and multiple illnesses and we do not have the to

:50:38.:50:44.

keep doing everything we are doing now. But realistically in current

:50:45.:50:47.

times, 4% per annum increase is just not going to happen. That is at

:50:48.:50:51.

least the case that since the austerity policies from the UK

:50:52.:50:58.

Government came into place in 2010, health service across the UK has

:50:59.:51:01.

felt the brunt of that, yes. What is the solution to this? If you give

:51:02.:51:06.

focus to the health service and its current situation, and where other

:51:07.:51:13.

services are being cut more than the health service even further. First

:51:14.:51:16.

and foremost we want politicians across all parties to be honest

:51:17.:51:21.

about this. If you look at the recruitment position, we're running

:51:22.:51:26.

vacancies right across the country, urban, rural, GP and we are fed up

:51:27.:51:33.

with a mantra that says coming from the government we have more doctors

:51:34.:51:37.

than ever before. The point is we need more again in order for people

:51:38.:51:39.

to provide the service that people require. So why are you fed up? It

:51:40.:51:45.

is true that there are more doctors than ever before. Because that court

:51:46.:51:49.

is not relevant. The relevant question is do we have enough

:51:50.:51:55.

doctors? Do we have enough nurses, do we have enough staff out of the

:51:56.:52:04.

health service to provide the care that people need? At present we do

:52:05.:52:07.

not. Because that goes up year on year. Is the problem that we are not

:52:08.:52:13.

training enough doctors and nurses to get the numbers even if the money

:52:14.:52:13.

was there or what? Training in some areas of the health service

:52:14.:52:18.

need to improve. But for doctors we are training enough and we are going

:52:19.:52:20.

to train more and their own initiatives to try and increase the

:52:21.:52:26.

intake from the poorer sectors of society as well. All of that is

:52:27.:52:30.

good. But the jobs themselves need to be more attractive than they are

:52:31.:52:37.

at present. What does that mean? It means if you take general practice

:52:38.:52:40.

for instance, right now general practitioners are stretched to

:52:41.:52:42.

breaking point and a lot of what they're doing is work that could and

:52:43.:52:49.

should be done by other members of the community staff, but that staff

:52:50.:52:52.

isn't there. Now the government is working with the BMA with no real be

:52:53.:52:56.

casting of primary care so that general practitioners are doing much

:52:57.:53:03.

more of the complex care for patients in the community and the

:53:04.:53:05.

more basic tasks are being done others. But the funding has to flow

:53:06.:53:09.

to provide those extra staff in order to do it will stop that makes

:53:10.:53:14.

the GP job far more rewarding and effective and we think it will

:53:15.:53:21.

improve recruitment. Ayew simply saying, give us more money. Order

:53:22.:53:24.

using money coming into the NHS could be spent on a better way? What

:53:25.:53:29.

using money coming into the NHS we are saying is if there isn't

:53:30.:53:33.

substantially more money then we want all politicians to open up an

:53:34.:53:40.

honest debate with the public about what the hell services going to be

:53:41.:53:44.

doing, because it cannot be doing everything it is trying to do now.

:53:45.:53:47.

We simply do not have the resources in terms of the people and the money

:53:48.:53:51.

in order to do that. So there will have to be some treatments could not

:53:52.:53:58.

be carried out on the NHS? There are various different ways to look at

:53:59.:54:01.

it. And the first step is to move away from the impression that the

:54:02.:54:04.

government tries to give that things are OK just now. Because they are

:54:05.:54:12.

not. And where are they not? As I missing earlier, we simply do not

:54:13.:54:14.

have enough staffing and enough financing. To do everything the

:54:15.:54:22.

health service needs to do. We are stretched pretty much to breaking

:54:23.:54:24.

point just trying to keep things going. If you take the situation

:54:25.:54:31.

with consultant vacancies, we have consultant posts vacant for over six

:54:32.:54:34.

months that are advertised that cannot be filled. What happens when

:54:35.:54:40.

that is that all of the other staffs, consultants another doctors

:54:41.:54:43.

and nurses, are taking on more work to trying keep things going. The

:54:44.:54:47.

majority of staff in the health service are working way beyond what

:54:48.:54:50.

they're supposed to be doing just to keep things running. And that reads

:54:51.:54:58.

to personal breakdown and eventually leads to system breakdown. What does

:54:59.:54:59.

that mean? If you say you are leads to system breakdown. What does

:55:00.:55:03.

stretched to breaking point. What a system mean in the NHS? In effect

:55:04.:55:10.

what we are concerned about is that we will not real to recruit to the

:55:11.:55:15.

vacancies that we have. In fact the opposite, doctors will choose not to

:55:16.:55:17.

work in the health service and go abroad. It means that the system

:55:18.:55:22.

cannot do what it has to do, we cannot look after patients in a safe

:55:23.:55:26.

way. We are not at that point at the moment, but it is moving towards

:55:27.:55:32.

that. We have to leave it there. Thank you very much indeed.

:55:33.:55:33.

Here to discuss are two MSPs from Holyrood's Health Committee.

:55:34.:55:36.

For the SNP, Ivan McKee, and in our Edinburgh

:55:37.:55:38.

studio is Miles Briggs, from the Scottish Conservatives.

:55:39.:55:42.

Ivan, system breakdown sounds pretty alarming. Yes. You also heard the

:55:43.:55:53.

doctor saying the government is working with the BMA to move forward

:55:54.:55:56.

to resolve issues. The whole premise is that health expenditure has to

:55:57.:56:03.

rise to keep in pace with demand. The SNP Government has committed

:56:04.:56:08.

?500 million more than inflation over this government which more than

:56:09.:56:11.

any other government has committed to than in the election. That is the

:56:12.:56:17.

reality, we putting resources. So he is wrong to say that? We are putting

:56:18.:56:24.

more resources than. We recognise that as part of the issue. He says

:56:25.:56:28.

but as things stand at the moment, things are stretched to breaking

:56:29.:56:32.

point and could be a system breaking point in the NHS, so they cannot

:56:33.:56:40.

take care of patients safely. The government is working with the BMA.

:56:41.:56:46.

You are not addressing the point. Let me finish. We have put more

:56:47.:56:51.

resources and, we have committed ?500 million more than inflation

:56:52.:56:53.

more than any other party. We are also addressing the issues round

:56:54.:57:03.

about the health of the Seo/ Raqqa service. Which is what the BMA asked

:57:04.:57:06.

for us, to prevent that preventative side of things to be more effective.

:57:07.:57:12.

The shift to primary care which is imported and the integration of

:57:13.:57:16.

health and social is critically aborted. There are a number of

:57:17.:57:20.

things that are happening as well to make it more effective. System

:57:21.:57:25.

breakdown, do you find that alarming. What we have heard from

:57:26.:57:28.

Ivan is what the BMA have been complaining about, ministers are

:57:29.:57:31.

dictating what they think they should be doing. We need to have a

:57:32.:57:38.

wider discussion here. It is clear our health service in Scotland is

:57:39.:57:42.

struggling. Last week the city that Ivan represents, they had to turn

:57:43.:57:49.

away expectant mothers. We should be working across Parliament to resolve

:57:50.:57:52.

these. That is why we are forcing ministers to come to Parliament next

:57:53.:57:55.

week to tell us why trauma centres across Scotland have been delayed

:57:56.:57:58.

for three years. Nothing you are saying addresses Peter Bennie's

:57:59.:58:06.

point about system breakdown. You are not proposing to put any more

:58:07.:58:13.

money in by the Conservatives than the SNP are. We have said that we

:58:14.:58:24.

want to see that commitment. GPs are the first line in the health service

:58:25.:58:27.

and for two long they have been undervalued. You are talking about

:58:28.:58:32.

diverting existing money. While both of you are saying sounds like

:58:33.:58:35.

fiddling at the margins, whereas Doctor Bennie is saying is there is

:58:36.:58:40.

a potential serious crisis. If we'll look at the facts around this, since

:58:41.:58:48.

2010 the UK Government have increased health spending around the

:58:49.:58:52.

health service. Yes, what you're doing what Ivan dead. Peter Bennie

:58:53.:58:56.

said he was fed up about hearing about what politicians were doing.

:58:57.:59:09.

-- Ivan did.. We know we have an ageing population. That should not

:59:10.:59:19.

be a problem but an asset. How we look at redesigning services across

:59:20.:59:21.

Scotland to meet that challenge. That is something we have been

:59:22.:59:27.

putting ideas forward. The Scottish Government is not taking those on

:59:28.:59:33.

board. Do we need to have at some point, we put significant income tax

:59:34.:59:35.

significantly to pay for the needs of the NHS, or we say, look, we

:59:36.:59:44.

cannot do, the NHS cannot do everything it is expected to do. The

:59:45.:59:48.

debate is going all the time, there is lots going on to reshape the

:59:49.:59:52.

health service and move it forward. The SNP committed to fit ?500

:59:53.:59:59.

million. It is the fact that we have committed to increase the 11% then

:00:00.:00:03.

spend on primary care is all GPs have got that money. We have already

:00:04.:00:07.

committed to do that. We have done those things. In terms of reshaping

:00:08.:00:11.

the health service, that debate is going all the time. The reshaping of

:00:12.:00:21.

health and social is moving apace in Scotland. The refocus on primary

:00:22.:00:26.

care. The agenda around preventative Scotland. The refocus on primary

:00:27.:00:29.

spend which we talk about every week is critically important. From both

:00:30.:00:36.

of you, Peter Bennie said that the system are stretched to breaking

:00:37.:00:40.

point and that if this continues, he says we're not there but we could

:00:41.:00:44.

have a system breakdown. He says that what that means that the NHS

:00:45.:00:47.

will not be to care of patients safely. It is more money which we

:00:48.:00:54.

are doing. It is more doctors and nurses, which we are doing. And it

:00:55.:00:57.

is reshaping the health service. There is no magic one tier. There

:00:58.:01:00.

are a number of things that need to be done here. What are the BMA

:01:01.:01:08.

worried about? You pressed him on that. He said yes the government is

:01:09.:01:11.

working with the BMA to move this forward. We have agreed and signed

:01:12.:01:16.

up to 11% that we asked for. We are taking significant steps to recruit

:01:17.:01:25.

more doctors and nurses. In the last ten years since the SNP in

:01:26.:01:28.

government, numbers have troubled. You have just given us a number of

:01:29.:01:33.

what the Tories in London have been doing. Do you think the BMA are just

:01:34.:01:39.

Daft and do not understand all these wonderful things that politicians

:01:40.:01:42.

are doing further? Not at all. This is where the debate should start.

:01:43.:01:47.

Our health service does not depend on the SNP government. It depends on

:01:48.:01:51.

the people who work day in, day out to deliver it. We want to make their

:01:52.:01:54.

life easier. That is crisis point that the BMA are warning about is

:01:55.:02:01.

coming about because of the demands in health service and how our health

:02:02.:02:04.

services are managing to court. We are finding out every single week

:02:05.:02:08.

units which are not performing as well as they should be. Across

:02:09.:02:13.

Scotland how our health service and our workforce planning has been

:02:14.:02:17.

designed. Have not had a work force plan for ten years under this

:02:18.:02:21.

government, so how can we work out what health professionals we need

:02:22.:02:22.

and how we deliver health across what health professionals we need

:02:23.:02:26.

Scotland? We will need to leave it there. Thank you both very much.

:02:27.:02:29.

Councils are about to get new powers from Parliament to tackle concerns

:02:30.:02:32.

about betting shops opening multiple outlets and

:02:33.:02:34.

The rule change aims to make it easier for local authorities

:02:35.:02:38.

to reject future applications if they want.

:02:39.:02:39.

But the bookmakers body says the industry operates responsibly,

:02:40.:02:41.

under tough regulation, and supports local economies.

:02:42.:02:43.

Our reporter Andrew Black has been to West Dunbartonshire,

:02:44.:02:45.

which has Scotland's highest concentration of betting shops.

:02:46.:02:56.

Gambling became my be all and end all and it was the most important

:02:57.:03:04.

thing in my life. I gambled all my money and it was my mother's

:03:05.:03:10.

birthday and I could not buy her a gift. The guilt and remorse really

:03:11.:03:15.

hit home. Bob is gambling addict. It started off with the odd punt on the

:03:16.:03:18.

football and horses became something started off with the odd punt on the

:03:19.:03:22.

much worse serious. I ran my own business at the time and I should

:03:23.:03:25.

have been there since eight o'clock in the morning. But I had not left

:03:26.:03:29.

work until six o'clock that morning. I would sleep till 12 in the day and

:03:30.:03:31.

at 12 o'clock I would go to the I would sleep till 12 in the day and

:03:32.:03:37.

bookmakers again. I would be there until closing time or until I lost

:03:38.:03:41.

my money. Then I would go back to work and work through the night. And

:03:42.:03:43.

then the same routine perpetuated itself. So, yeah, it got bad. In

:03:44.:03:55.

Clydebank, there is concern is about bookmakers. This town is an West

:03:56.:03:58.

Dunbartonshire which has the highest number of betting shops per person

:03:59.:04:05.

in Scotland. Here we are in Clydebank town centre. To give you

:04:06.:04:08.

an idea of the concentration of bookmakers shops in the area, here

:04:09.:04:10.

is one of my shoulder. A second one just ran the corner,

:04:11.:04:30.

another just round the road. Up all of these within 100m of each other.

:04:31.:04:36.

The local planning chairman says that makers target less well off

:04:37.:04:39.

areas. I don't doubt that areas like

:04:40.:04:45.

Clydebank that have highly levels of deprivation are not able to say that

:04:46.:04:51.

they aren't feeding on the honourable. That's my opinion.

:04:52.:04:56.

Traditionally, bookmakers have found it easy to open a location at a

:04:57.:05:03.

premises previously used by a bank on the grounds that provide a

:05:04.:05:09.

financial service. Councils are considering new powers for

:05:10.:05:12.

applications in their own right. West Dunbartonshire Council says it

:05:13.:05:14.

will use those powers to stop bookmakers opening up, whether a lot

:05:15.:05:20.

they wanted. Each application will be taken on

:05:21.:05:27.

its merits, the likelihood is that there is a good likelihood that they

:05:28.:05:32.

would not be allowed within town centres.

:05:33.:05:36.

Are a betting shop starting poor areas?

:05:37.:05:43.

Betting shops open in areas with high footfall undermanned. Since the

:05:44.:05:47.

2008 crash, where we had a lot of High Street names go bust, we had a

:05:48.:05:51.

situation where bookmakers made from secondary locations into prime, town

:05:52.:05:58.

centre, High Street locations. In doing so, they brought a vibrancy to

:05:59.:06:02.

our town centres, they brought jobs and investment into error

:06:03.:06:04.

communities. They are providing business rates. The number of

:06:05.:06:08.

bookmakers across Scotland has actually been a decline in recent

:06:09.:06:12.

years. If you look at the estate today, computer 1970s, it has almost

:06:13.:06:17.

halved. With lost 300 shops across the UK in the last year. Many of

:06:18.:06:22.

them small operators. The betting industry says it's

:06:23.:06:27.

already heavily regulate it and promotes responsible gambling.

:06:28.:06:31.

Meanwhile, councils like West Dunbartonshire says they're not

:06:32.:06:34.

opposed to betting shops out right, but say there's an important balance

:06:35.:06:36.

to be struck. If you're affected by gambling

:06:37.:06:37.

and would like more information, you can contact the Gamblers

:06:38.:06:40.

Anonymous Scotland helpline It's time to look back at the events

:06:41.:06:42.

of the past week and see what's And my guests this week

:06:43.:06:51.

are the political editor of the Press Association Scotland,

:06:52.:07:02.

Katrine Bussey and Tom Gordon who's Scottish political

:07:03.:07:04.

editor at the Herald. Let's start with Labour. Katrine,

:07:05.:07:15.

the idea that Kezia Dugdale, that you can be a Labour MSP or a member

:07:16.:07:20.

and campaign for independence as there's another referendum, that

:07:21.:07:23.

since gone out the window? It does with Alex Rowley's comments,

:07:24.:07:29.

yes. Basically, you'll do what we decide at party conference. In a

:07:30.:07:34.

way, it's good to see a clarity of message coming from Labour. I'm

:07:35.:07:39.

thinking about how they've had also serve opinions on independence in

:07:40.:07:44.

the last year or so, and recently Jackie Smith tweeting about the

:07:45.:07:48.

importance of clarity, saying it's like a good underwear. You don't

:07:49.:07:52.

want to wave it around, but you miss it when it's not there.

:07:53.:07:57.

I think the idea, when Kezia Dugdale may the initial proposal, was to say

:07:58.:07:59.

I think the idea, when Kezia Dugdale we want to be open to everyone and

:08:00.:08:05.

we realise that a lot of were people who vote Labour, voted yeah to

:08:06.:08:15.

independence. We might have the benefit of clarity, but the media

:08:16.:08:18.

price to pay as well. There might be, and it is a work in

:08:19.:08:23.

progress for Labour at the moment. They're putting together this

:08:24.:08:27.

constitutional framework together, and progress will continue in that

:08:28.:08:34.

quite quickly. Maybe, as Jeremy Corbyn says, by the time the next

:08:35.:08:37.

election comes around, they will have a package to pitch to voters.

:08:38.:08:44.

What are you policy of you will do what you are told?

:08:45.:08:48.

It is difficult for Labour, a number of the candidates they had in the

:08:49.:08:52.

election openly voted for Yes at the election, and they were slapped

:08:53.:08:57.

down, as part of the Broadchurch that Labour had. Since then, there

:08:58.:09:01.

been a problem with so many people freelancing.

:09:02.:09:08.

If that is the case that the party conference decides against test

:09:09.:09:12.

welcome he didn't suggest that, but let's assume it will,

:09:13.:09:20.

-, will Labour candidates Bay that instruction, do you think?

:09:21.:09:25.

It won't be long before the next Holyrood or general election comes

:09:26.:09:31.

to the test. Labour are groping their way towards a position. The

:09:32.:09:37.

SNP and Conservatives are unified on their possessions. Labour, with

:09:38.:09:40.

people and virtually every camp, or trying to arrive at a solution.

:09:41.:09:46.

The problem they have is that it would involve devolution in England.

:09:47.:09:50.

John Prescott tried that, not the wanted it. Jeremy Corbyn was talking

:09:51.:09:55.

about this morning. You need that English bets, to get a

:09:56.:09:57.

constitutional settlement for the entire UK?

:09:58.:10:02.

Libertad Gotze been banging on about it for decades and it hasn't come to

:10:03.:10:09.

pass. -- Liberal Democrats have been. The solution may never come to

:10:10.:10:16.

pass, but it may satisfy them politically in the short term.

:10:17.:10:20.

The problem they have, when it comes to nationalists, you can do better

:10:21.:10:24.

than the Scottish Nationalists. When it comes to unionism, the Tories

:10:25.:10:27.

have that stitched up. The Tories have defined themselves

:10:28.:10:30.

as the party of the union. The cool as the party of the union. The cool

:10:31.:10:35.

-- the clue is in the name, as Ruth Davidson would say. Labour have

:10:36.:10:44.

flip-flopped a bit. Brexit, Tom, if any of the stuff

:10:45.:10:48.

we're been hearing about all morning is true, about what Theresa May is

:10:49.:10:53.

going to say, this is not been focused on, but she's effectively

:10:54.:10:56.

saying to Nicola Sturgeon, you can just forget it?

:10:57.:11:03.

It does sound like that. She said the Conservative conference she

:11:04.:11:06.

wouldn't sign up to the ECG, she would prioritise immigration control

:11:07.:11:12.

over freedom of movement. All those things are the last thing that

:11:13.:11:21.

Nicola Sturgeon once to hear. So it looks like Theresa May, the small

:11:22.:11:25.

quotes we have from the speech, are talking about one nation will stop

:11:26.:11:29.

and people who were on the Remain side coming together and putting

:11:30.:11:37.

that behind them. So what do you do? Do you say we'll

:11:38.:11:45.

have a second referendum or do you fudge it a bit?

:11:46.:11:50.

It makes it very hard for Nicola Sturgeon to avoid having a second

:11:51.:11:54.

referendum. He had this very specific example in the SNP

:11:55.:11:59.

manifesto about what would trigger a second referendum. Theresa May is

:12:00.:12:02.

going to deliver an effectively big slap in the face to her plan, the

:12:03.:12:06.

colour sturgeon and around and say, the conditions were met from our

:12:07.:12:13.

manifesto, the conditions we have two endured are intolerable, and a

:12:14.:12:15.

thinker and troops want it to happen.

:12:16.:12:20.

This is getting tighter and tighter happen.

:12:21.:12:25.

issue, isn't it? The other side is presumably the SNP aren't

:12:26.:12:30.

entirely... There was talk last year they wanted 60 present in the polls

:12:31.:12:36.

for six months or so. The old line, you don't have a referendum in less

:12:37.:12:40.

you're absolutely certain you can win it. But like they can't be

:12:41.:12:44.

certain? Nicola Sturgeon might find herself

:12:45.:12:48.

painted into a corner. She came at very strongly and quickly after the

:12:49.:12:52.

European referendum and said, this makes another independence

:12:53.:12:56.

referendum highly likely. But since then, there has not been the shift

:12:57.:12:59.

in the polls she might perhaps have hoped to have seen.

:13:00.:13:05.

Let's briefly mention section 40, Andrew Neil was talking to Max

:13:06.:13:10.

Mosley, are you concerned about it? We have very little time.

:13:11.:13:16.

TA are very concerned about it, they have made a submission to the UK

:13:17.:13:21.

Government warning about the chilling threat this poses, it is an

:13:22.:13:26.

expensive unnecessary injustice. All journalists have to be concerned.

:13:27.:13:33.

The Herald not taking part? Where are not for it. It is a

:13:34.:13:39.

charlatan's charger, you get punished for telling the truth. It's

:13:40.:13:42.

outrageous. And they would convince the Herald

:13:43.:13:45.

to change its mind. We are very firmly against it.

:13:46.:13:47.

Thank you. I'll be back at the

:13:48.:13:52.

same time next week.

:13:53.:13:56.

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