28/05/2017 Sunday Politics Scotland


28/05/2017

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:36.:00:39.

New CCTV images are released showing suicide bomber, Salman Abedi,

:00:40.:00:43.

on the night he attacked Manchester Arena, killing 22 people.

:00:44.:00:46.

Are the politicians and the security services doing

:00:47.:00:48.

Theresa May says Britain needs to be "stronger and more resolute"

:00:49.:00:54.

in confronting extremist views, as she outlines plans

:00:55.:00:57.

for a new Commission to counter extremism.

:00:58.:01:01.

We'll be talking to the Security Minister.

:01:02.:01:05.

Jeremy Corbyn says a Labour government would recruit 1,000

:01:06.:01:07.

more staff at security and intelligence agencies.

:01:08.:01:14.

And on Sunday Politics, Scotland I'll be talking to two

:01:15.:01:16.

political leaders looking to make inroads into the SNP vote.

:01:17.:01:19.

Scottish Labour's Kezia Dugdale and the Scottish

:01:20.:01:21.

To help guide me through this morning, I'm joined by

:01:22.:01:35.

Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Tim Marshall.

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They'll be sharing their thoughts on Twitter and you can join

:01:38.:01:42.

So, with a week and a half to go, the election campaign

:01:43.:01:50.

And some recent polls suggest the race is just

:01:51.:01:53.

We'll be taking a closer look at that in just a moment but, first,

:01:54.:01:59.

here are some of the key events over the next 10 days or so:

:02:00.:02:03.

Tonight at 6pm will see the third of the party leader interviews.

:02:04.:02:08.

This time it's the SNP's Nicola Sturgeon facing questions

:02:09.:02:10.

While many across the UK will be enjoying tomorrow's bank holiday,

:02:11.:02:15.

there will be no break in campaigning for

:02:16.:02:17.

And in the evening it will be the turn of Ukip's Paul Nuttall

:02:18.:02:24.

On Tuesday the SNP publish their manifesto -

:02:25.:02:27.

the last of the major parties to do so - after last week's

:02:28.:02:30.

Then on Wednesday, the BBC's Election Debate will see

:02:31.:02:34.

representatives from the seven main parties debate in front

:02:35.:02:37.

On Thursday, Lib Dem leader Tim Farron will have his interview...

:02:38.:02:47.

Before Friday's Question Time special with Theresa May

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They won't debate each other, but will take questions

:02:50.:02:52.

consecutively from members of the audience.

:02:53.:02:54.

The final week of campaigning is a short one, with politicians

:02:55.:02:57.

cramming in three days of door-knocking before voters go

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We'll have an exit poll once voting has ended at 10pm,

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with the result expected early in the morning of June 9th.

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Well, it's Sunday, and that always means a spate of new opinion

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And they make for fascinating, if a tad confusing, reading.

:03:17.:03:20.

There are five new opinion polls today, which have

:03:21.:03:22.

the Conservative lead over Labour anywhere from six

:03:23.:03:24.

points to 14 points. So, what's going on?

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Professor John Curtice is the expert we always turn

:03:28.:03:29.

to at times like this, and he joins me from Glasgow.

:03:30.:03:38.

Take us through these polls. They seem to be all over the place? They

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may seem to be but there is a very consistent key message. Four of

:03:47.:03:50.

these five polls, if you compare them with what they were saying

:03:51.:03:53.

before the Conservative manifesto launch on the 18th, four say the

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Conservatives are down by two points. Four of them say the Labour

:03:59.:04:05.

vote is up by two points. A clear consistent message. The Conservative

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lead has narrowed. Why does this matter? It matters because we are

:04:12.:04:16.

now in a position where the leads are such that the Conservatives can

:04:17.:04:19.

no longer be sure of getting the landslide majority they want. Some

:04:20.:04:25.

posters suggesting they may be in trouble and it is going to get

:04:26.:04:28.

rather close. Others suggested is further apart. There are two major

:04:29.:04:39.

sources of... The Poles agree that young voters will vote Labour if

:04:40.:04:42.

they vote. Older voters will vote for the Conservatives. How many of

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those younger voters will turn out to vote? The second thing is whether

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the evidence in the opinion polls that the Conservatives are advancing

:04:54.:04:57.

more in the North of England and the Midlands is realised that the ballot

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box? If it is not realised, the Tories chances of getting a

:05:01.:05:04.

landslide look remote. If it is, they could still well indeed get a

:05:05.:05:10.

majority more than 80%. The Conservatives have lost some ground

:05:11.:05:14.

depending on which opinion poll you look at. What about the Labour

:05:15.:05:21.

Party? It is gaining ground. It has been gaining ground ever since week

:05:22.:05:25.

one. They started on 26, they now average 35. There were a lot of

:05:26.:05:31.

people out there at the beginning of the campaign who were saying, I

:05:32.:05:35.

usually vote Labour but the truth is I'm not sure about Jeremy Corbyn.

:05:36.:05:40.

They seem to have decided the Labour manifesto wasn't so bad. They have

:05:41.:05:44.

looked at Theresa May and have said, we will stick with Labour. Labour

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have managed to draw back into the fold some of their traditional

:05:51.:05:52.

voters who were disenchanted, together with, crucially, some of

:05:53.:05:57.

those younger voters who have never voted before, who have always been a

:05:58.:06:03.

particular target for Jeremy Corbyn. What is your reaction to previous

:06:04.:06:06.

opinion polls and elections weather has been a feeling that some of the

:06:07.:06:09.

Labour support has been overstated? This be a worry this time? That is

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one of the uncertainties that faces the opinion polls and the rest of

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us. We had a conference on Friday at which it was carefully explained

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that pollsters have been trying to correct the errors that resulted in

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an overestimation of Labour support a couple of years ago, particularly

:06:30.:06:33.

among younger voters. You shouldn't assume the opinion polls will be

:06:34.:06:36.

wrong this time because they were wrong the last time. We want in

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truth know whether or not the polls have got it right. Even if they are

:06:42.:06:49.

wrong in terms of the level, they are not wrong in terms of the trend.

:06:50.:06:53.

The trends have been dramatic so far. A big rise in Tory support

:06:54.:07:00.

early on at the expense of Ukip. And subsequently, a remarkable rise in

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Labour support, albeit from a low initial baseline. This election has

:07:06.:07:08.

already seen quite a lot of movement. We shouldn't rule out the

:07:09.:07:12.

possibility there will be yet more in the ten days to come.

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That is his analysis. Let's talk to the panel. Julia, how concerned

:07:21.:07:24.

should Conservative headquarters be at this particular point at what

:07:25.:07:31.

looks like an apparent surge by Labour? Depends if you want a

:07:32.:07:34.

massive landslide majority or might not. I assume the Tory party do.

:07:35.:07:39.

Whether anybody thinks that is a good idea is a different matter.

:07:40.:07:45.

Undoubtedly the manifesto league was a total disaster. Social care policy

:07:46.:07:51.

and the U-turn. Lots of stuff in the Labour manifesto was very appealing.

:07:52.:07:56.

The tactic from Sir Lynton Crosby was clear. It is all about Theresa

:07:57.:07:59.

May. Don't even mention the candidate or the party. The Labour

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Party, the candidates are on the moderate side are saying, don't

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mention Jeremy Corbyn. This has been a battle between two big people. The

:08:11.:08:13.

more we have seen of Theresa May, she has gone down. The more we have

:08:14.:08:18.

seen of Jeremy Corbyn, he has gone up. If you make it about strong and

:08:19.:08:23.

stable leadership and then you do something like a massive

:08:24.:08:26.

unprecedented U-turn on a key policy like social care, the knock is even

:08:27.:08:30.

greater. Do you think that is the reason for the change in the opinion

:08:31.:08:33.

greater. Do you think that is the polls or is Labour gaining some

:08:34.:08:37.

momentum? I think it is part of the reason. You can understand why the

:08:38.:08:40.

focus was on her at the beginning because her personal ratings were

:08:41.:08:44.

stratospheric. What is interesting is all successful leaders basically

:08:45.:08:47.

cast a spell over voters in the media. None of them are titans. All

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of them are flawed. It is a question of when the spell is broken. This is

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a first for a leader's spell to be broken during an election campaign.

:08:59.:09:03.

That was a moment of high significance. The fact the Labour

:09:04.:09:06.

Party campaign is more robust than many thought it would be is the

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other factor. I think it is the combination of the two, that the

:09:12.:09:15.

trend, as Professor John Curtis said, the trend has been this

:09:16.:09:21.

narrow. There has not been much campaigning. Local campaigning

:09:22.:09:24.

resumed on Thursday, national campaigning on Friday. Do you think,

:09:25.:09:29.

Tim Marshall, that the opinion polls are reflecting what happened in

:09:30.:09:32.

Manchester and people's thoughts about which party will keep them

:09:33.:09:37.

safe? No, I think that will come next week. I think it is too soon

:09:38.:09:40.

for that. It was quite understandable from the V -- the

:09:41.:09:47.

very beginning for Lynton Crosby to frame the campaign in terms of

:09:48.:09:53.

Theresa May and Brexit. The electorate can have its own view.

:09:54.:10:00.

You always have to go back to Clinton's it's the economy stupid

:10:01.:10:05.

for most of the electorate. It is framed in your electricity bill. It

:10:06.:10:09.

is framed in your jobs. Both manifestos have got more holes in

:10:10.:10:15.

them than Swiss cheese. It comes down to which manifesto you believe.

:10:16.:10:19.

The Labour manifesto makes more promises about things you care about

:10:20.:10:23.

like your electricity bill. Interesting, but in the end despite

:10:24.:10:29.

while we thought would be a Brexit election, it has been a lot about

:10:30.:10:33.

public services. It always comes down to bread-and-butter issues. I

:10:34.:10:36.

don't think we have quite seen how the terrorist you has played out. We

:10:37.:10:41.

had the Westminster attack only a couple of months ago. That was

:10:42.:10:44.

already factored in in terms of who you trust and who you don't trust.

:10:45.:10:49.

The IRA stuff from Jeremy Corbyn is already factored in. People actually

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care about how ordinary government policies affect their lives. Thank

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you very much. The election campaign was,

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of course, put on hold following the terrorist

:10:59.:11:00.

attack in Manchester But now that campaigning has

:11:01.:11:01.

resumed, it's hardly surprising that security

:11:02.:11:04.

is now a primary concern. The Labour Party has announced it

:11:05.:11:07.

would recruit 1,000 more Jeremy Corbyn, speaking on ITV at

:11:08.:11:20.

short while ago, says previous cuts have undermined security.

:11:21.:11:25.

It seems that the cuts in police numbers have led to some very

:11:26.:11:30.

dangerous situation is emerging. It is also a question of a community

:11:31.:11:37.

response as well. So that where, an imam, for example, lets the police

:11:38.:11:39.

he is concerned about a muddy, I would hope they would act. And I

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would hope we have -- and I would hope they would have the resources

:11:45.:11:45.

to act as well. Joining me now from Leeds

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is the Shadow Justice Good morning. You have announced a

:11:48.:11:57.

thousand more Security and Intelligence agency staff. That is

:11:58.:12:00.

in line with what the government has already announced and the Shadow

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Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, has said you would not be spending any

:12:05.:12:07.

more money. It doesn't amount to much, does it? That is just one of

:12:08.:12:12.

the parts of our pledge card on the safer communities. There is also

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10,000 extra police, because the Conservatives cut the police by

:12:20.:12:23.

20,000. That 10,000 extra police would mean in -- and extra police

:12:24.:12:27.

officer in each neighbourhood. There are 3000 extra put -- prison

:12:28.:12:32.

officers. Prison staff has been cut by 6000. That is a third. It is not

:12:33.:12:40.

helping keep communities safer. We are pledging 3000 extra

:12:41.:12:45.

firefighters. Also, a thousand extra security staff and 500 extra border

:12:46.:12:54.

guards. There have been 13 areas identified where our borders are not

:12:55.:12:58.

as secure as they should be. That is the list of numbers you have given.

:12:59.:13:03.

If we concentrate on the security services, because it was Jeremy

:13:04.:13:06.

Corbyn he said there will be more police on the streets under Labour.

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If the security sources need more resources they should get them. Why

:13:12.:13:17.

aren't you giving them more? We are committing to a thousand more

:13:18.:13:21.

police. The Godinet is doing that as well. You are not committing

:13:22.:13:28.

anything more. The government has not delivered on that promise. We

:13:29.:13:32.

will deliver on that promise is -- promise. What Jeremy has made very

:13:33.:13:36.

clear is that you can't do security on the cheap. Austerity has to stop

:13:37.:13:41.

at the police station door, and at the hospital door. But we will be

:13:42.:13:47.

giving the resources required to keep our communities safer. So you

:13:48.:13:50.

will give them the resources and more powers? Well, the police need

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to be empowered. But when you listen to what the Police Federation are

:13:58.:14:00.

saying, they have been speaking out for a long time about the danger

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caused by police cuts. And I'm talking not only about terrorism,

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not only about acts of extreme violence, but anything from

:14:13.:14:17.

anti-social behaviour to burglary. Use it more powers. What sort of

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powers are you thinking of giving the security services? We need to

:14:24.:14:27.

listen to them. That is not a power. We need to listen to the

:14:28.:14:30.

intelligence community and the security service, to the army and

:14:31.:14:36.

the police, about what they think and how they think our communities

:14:37.:14:40.

could be made safe. One thing is clear. Cutting the number of police

:14:41.:14:45.

by 20,000 makes our community is less safe, not more safe. You said

:14:46.:14:51.

you will listen to the security services. Can voters be reassured

:14:52.:14:55.

and guaranteed that Jeremy Corbyn will listen to the security services

:14:56.:15:00.

and the police in terms of more powers if that is what they want?

:15:01.:15:05.

Until now he has spent his whole political career voting against

:15:06.:15:09.

measures designed to tackle home-grown and international

:15:10.:15:14.

terrorism. Jeremy Corbyn's speech on safer communities earlier this week

:15:15.:15:18.

made clear he is listening to the security services. So he would grant

:15:19.:15:23.

those new powers. He voted against the terrorism Act in 2000, into

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thousands and six. In 2011. And in 2014, the data retention and

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investigatory Powers act. Which new powers will he be happy to enact?

:15:36.:15:40.

Just to say, Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and

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many Conservative MPs, voted against legislation where they thought it

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would be ill-advised, ineffective or actually counter-productive. It is a

:15:50.:15:52.

very complex situation. What we don't want to do is introduce

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hastily prepared laws with one eye to the newspaper headlines, which

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can act as recruiting sergeants for terrorism. And actually, when I said

:16:03.:16:06.

earlier that Jeremy Corbyn made clear in his speech this week that

:16:07.:16:08.

he has been listening to the security services, what he said

:16:09.:16:13.

about the international situation has also been said by the former

:16:14.:16:18.

head of MI5, Stella Rimington, and her predecessor. As well as

:16:19.:16:21.

president of back -- President Barack Obama.

:16:22.:16:27.

You say he will give the police and security services the resources and

:16:28.:16:33.

powers they need. If we look back at some of the legislation Jeremy

:16:34.:16:37.

Corbyn and others voted against in 2000, it gave the Secretary of State

:16:38.:16:47.

the -- new powers... Does Jeremy Corbyn still think that is a bad

:16:48.:16:53.

idea? Jeremy Corbyn along with Theresa May, David Davis and

:16:54.:16:58.

others... I know you want to bracket it with Conservatives but I'm

:16:59.:17:01.

interested in what Jeremy Corbyn will do when he says we are going to

:17:02.:17:05.

be smarter about fighting terrorism. If he's not prepared to vote in

:17:06.:17:09.

favour of those sorts of measures, or trying to impose restrictions on

:17:10.:17:14.

suspects, I'm trying to find out what he will do. It is a complex

:17:15.:17:21.

situation. With this legislation the devil is often in the detail. If it

:17:22.:17:25.

was a simple and stopping terrorism by voting a piece of legislation

:17:26.:17:28.

through Parliament, it would have been stopped a long time ago. Sadly

:17:29.:17:36.

there are no easy answers, and that is recognised by Barack Obama,

:17:37.:17:39.

Stella Rimington, the head of the MI5, by David Davis and other

:17:40.:17:44.

Conservative MPs. What is clear, as Jeremy made clear in his speech this

:17:45.:17:48.

week, is the way things are being done currently is not working. We

:17:49.:17:53.

have got to be tough on terrorism and the unforgivable acts of murder,

:17:54.:17:57.

but also tough on the causes of terrorism as well. The sad truth is

:17:58.:18:02.

there are no easy answers. If there were, the problem would have been

:18:03.:18:15.

solved a long time ago. If you more security and terrorism officers but

:18:16.:18:17.

your leader is still uncomfortable with giving them the powers they

:18:18.:18:20.

need to do their jobs because it is complicated legislation, they will

:18:21.:18:22.

want to know how you are going to do it. At another stop the War rally in

:18:23.:18:31.

2014, Jeremy Corbyn said the murder of a charity worker was jingoism. At

:18:32.:18:41.

the beginning of that speech he mentioned the importance of the

:18:42.:18:45.

one-minute silence for the memory of Alan Henning who was murdered. What

:18:46.:18:50.

he has also made clear is responsibility for acts of terrorism

:18:51.:18:54.

and murder lies with the murder, and something that's really disappointed

:18:55.:19:02.

me is that the Prime Minister said the other day that in Jeremy

:19:03.:19:05.

Corbyn's speech on this on Monday, he said... Whether she agrees with

:19:06.:19:19.

him on his politics, she knows he didn't say that in his speech, but

:19:20.:19:24.

what troubles me is you have got a Prime Minister who must have sat

:19:25.:19:27.

down with her advisers earlier that day and said, well I do know he

:19:28.:19:31.

didn't say that but if we say he did we might win some votes. I think

:19:32.:19:35.

that is shameful and it shows Theresa May cannot be trusted. These

:19:36.:19:39.

issues should transcend party politics. We need to pull together

:19:40.:19:40.

on this issue. Thank you very much. Well, the Conservatives have

:19:41.:19:45.

promised a new statutory commission The party says it will identify

:19:46.:19:47.

extremism, including the "non-violent" kind,

:19:48.:19:50.

and help communities stand up to it. Also this morning,

:19:51.:19:52.

the Security Minister, Ben Wallace, has attacked internet giants

:19:53.:19:54.

for failing to tackle terror online, and accused them

:19:55.:19:57.

of being ruthless money-makers. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:19:58.:20:10.

Those comments you have made about social media companies failing in

:20:11.:20:14.

their responsibility to take down extremist material, what will you do

:20:15.:20:19.

to compel them? I think we will look at the range of options. The Germans

:20:20.:20:23.

have proposed a fine, we are not sure whether that will work, but

:20:24.:20:28.

there are range of pressures we can put onto some of these companies.

:20:29.:20:34.

Some have complied. In the article in the Sunday Telegraph today I did

:20:35.:20:37.

say it is not all of them. They are not immune to pressure. We can do

:20:38.:20:43.

internationally, and the Prime Minister urged at the G7 and

:20:44.:20:46.

international response. I think there are a range of issues. We

:20:47.:20:53.

could change the law. You mentioned the G7, and rhetoric and warm words

:20:54.:20:57.

are fine to an extent but it is action people want. If you have made

:20:58.:21:01.

these impassioned remarks in the newspapers about them failing to do

:21:02.:21:07.

the job, people want to know what powers do you have now to say to

:21:08.:21:11.

social media companies take down this material? We have an act that

:21:12.:21:16.

was recently passed. In this area we have just finished consulting on one

:21:17.:21:22.

of the areas we could use but we cannot pre-empt the consultation. We

:21:23.:21:28.

have right now officials from my department over in the United States

:21:29.:21:31.

with American officials working with CSPs because what we see is that

:21:32.:21:36.

they do respond to pressure. The best example is we think they have

:21:37.:21:42.

the technology and the capability to change the algorithms they use that

:21:43.:21:49.

maximise profit over safety. But you are relying on these companies

:21:50.:21:52.

devoting more resources to this line of work that you would like to see

:21:53.:21:56.

they will do that? They said, only a they will do that? They said, only a

:21:57.:22:02.

few weeks ago before the election was called the Home Secretary hosted

:22:03.:22:06.

a Round Table with them. We have evidence they are trying to improve

:22:07.:22:12.

it. A few are refusing to or being difficult, and that's why the Prime

:22:13.:22:15.

Minister was right to step up not only the language she was using but

:22:16.:22:19.

to say we are not going to allow this to progress any more. People

:22:20.:22:23.

will be worried about who will make the judgment about what is

:22:24.:22:26.

unacceptable and what should be taken down. Let me show you this,

:22:27.:22:32.

which was shared widely across social media. If you read that quote

:22:33.:22:38.

you could argue it is at the same end if you like. The man in the

:22:39.:22:42.

picture is a terrorist hate preacher, the jihadist who was

:22:43.:22:47.

killed in Yemen by the Americans. Is this the sort of thing you would be

:22:48.:22:52.

demanding social media companies take down? You have to look at the

:22:53.:22:56.

context it was deployed in. I could show you some of the 270,000 pieces

:22:57.:23:03.

we have had removed since 2010 from internet sites that have been

:23:04.:23:07.

extreme. The big issue is not often the individual image, it is the way

:23:08.:23:11.

these companies set up the algorithms to link you. If you were

:23:12.:23:17.

watching that on Facebook delivered to you, perhaps you would like to

:23:18.:23:21.

look at this, because that's how they set it up. If you go onto

:23:22.:23:28.

YouTube, you can get let down the path from looking at Manchester... I

:23:29.:23:37.

understand your example, but from a practical level are you expecting

:23:38.:23:40.

media companies to take down that sort of posts if it appeared? Yes...

:23:41.:23:48.

You are? Who will make the decisions about what will radicalise young

:23:49.:23:51.

people that could lead someone down the path to let off a bomb? If I

:23:52.:23:58.

invite your viewers to look at the work the Guardian have done on

:23:59.:24:02.

Facebook guidance, to say for example it is OK to produce videos

:24:03.:24:07.

or broadcast videos of seven-year-olds being bullied as

:24:08.:24:11.

long as it wasn't accompanied by captions, I don't think you need to

:24:12.:24:15.

be an expert to say that is not acceptable. Something more worrying

:24:16.:24:20.

for you as a journalist and me as a politician, another set of guidance

:24:21.:24:26.

that says... I think this is quite menacing... That certain people

:24:27.:24:31.

don't deserve our protection. That includes journalists and politicians

:24:32.:24:35.

and people who are controversial. So I think there is more work to be

:24:36.:24:39.

done but at the end of the day it is the pathway this stuff leads to. It

:24:40.:24:44.

is more about examining how much progress you can make. The

:24:45.:24:49.

Government says there are up to 23,000 potential terrorist attackers

:24:50.:24:54.

in this country, 3000 of those posing a serious threat being

:24:55.:25:04.

monitored. That is pretty disturbing, these are big numbers.

:25:05.:25:10.

Yes, and the tragedy of Manchester shows this is not about failure, it

:25:11.:25:13.

is about the scale of the challenge we face and that is why it is

:25:14.:25:17.

important that alongside people is powers. Should you double the size

:25:18.:25:25.

of MI5 for example? We have increased year-on-year in real terms

:25:26.:25:28.

not only the money but the numbers of people in MI5. It is now 2000 we

:25:29.:25:33.

have committed to increased to... Before the attack. Before our

:25:34.:25:40.

manifesto we had recruited, we have increased the whole of government

:25:41.:25:43.

spending on counterterrorism from ?11.7 billion in 2015 up to 15.7

:25:44.:25:53.

billion. Would you expand the number of people in MI5? I have asked them

:25:54.:26:00.

on a regular basis if they have the resource if they are happy with it,

:26:01.:26:05.

and the answer comes back time and time again, yes we are. You have

:26:06.:26:10.

quite extensive powers at your disposal, the question is if you are

:26:11.:26:15.

using them. Measures were introduced in 2012 to replace control orders,

:26:16.:26:22.

but they have rarely been used. Only seven are currently in operation.

:26:23.:26:30.

Why? Because there are a whole... It is just one tool in the tool box.

:26:31.:26:35.

Other powers we use, we take away people's passports if we think they

:26:36.:26:44.

are about to travel. How many? I cannot comment, it is a sensitive

:26:45.:26:48.

issue. Plenty of people are finding their passport has been removed and

:26:49.:26:52.

at the same time we strip people of citizenship to make sure they don't

:26:53.:26:58.

come back. On top of that, because of the investment made in GCHQ, MI5

:26:59.:27:03.

and counterterrorism, we have more powers and more ability to monitor

:27:04.:27:09.

them. But are you using them enough? Only seven TPIMs are in operation.

:27:10.:27:17.

You won't give me any of the other measures at your disposal, but if

:27:18.:27:20.

they are only in single figures, that doesn't seem to compare with

:27:21.:27:26.

the numbers who are being monitored. Also, we have to strike a balance

:27:27.:27:31.

between... We have to satisfy the court so we have to make sure there

:27:32.:27:35.

is enough evidence to restrict people's freedoms. TPIMs do all

:27:36.:27:42.

sorts of good things to keep people safe. It sends people away from

:27:43.:27:49.

where they live, it tags them... I tell you why they are better. The

:27:50.:27:54.

control orders were on track to be struck down by the courts because

:27:55.:27:58.

one of the things we have to satisfy is the courts but we also have to

:27:59.:28:02.

satisfy, we have to make sure we get the balance between the community is

:28:03.:28:07.

right and the measures we take. If we alienate our communities, we

:28:08.:28:11.

won't get the intelligence that allows us to catch it. There is no

:28:12.:28:16.

point in having more police and intelligence services if you don't

:28:17.:28:22.

give them the powers to do the job. Jeremy Corbyn were licensed James

:28:23.:28:34.

Bond to do precisely nothing. And -- thank you.

:28:35.:28:36.

The revelation that the Manchester suicide bomber, 22-year-old

:28:37.:28:44.

Salman Abedi, was born in this country has raised fresh concerns

:28:45.:28:46.

about the effectiveness of the UK's counter-extremism policy.

:28:47.:28:48.

In a moment we'll be talking to two people who've spent their careers

:28:49.:28:52.

investigating radicalisation in the UK.

:28:53.:28:53.

Douglas Murray, of the Henry Jackson Society,

:28:54.:28:55.

and Sara Khan, author of The Battle for British Islam and CEO

:28:56.:28:57.

of the counter-extremism organisation Inspire.

:28:58.:28:59.

We asked both for a personal take on how to confront the problem

:29:00.:29:01.

of Islamist extremism. First up, here's Douglas Murray.

:29:02.:29:05.

Even after all these dead, all this mourning and defiance,

:29:06.:29:10.

We remain stuck in the John Lennon response to terrorism -

:29:11.:29:28.

Our politicians still refuse to accurately identify

:29:29.:29:31.

the sources of the problem, and polite society

:29:32.:29:33.

This country gave asylum to the Libyan parents of Salman Abedi.

:29:34.:29:40.

Their son repaid that generosity by killing 22 British people,

:29:41.:29:44.

one for each year of life this country had given him.

:29:45.:29:51.

We need to think far more deeply about all this.

:29:52.:29:55.

Eastern Europe doesn't have an Islamic terrorism problem

:29:56.:29:58.

France has the worst problem because it has the most Islam.

:29:59.:30:06.

Are we ever going to draw any lessons from this?

:30:07.:30:10.

For the time being, the game is to be as inoffensive as possible.

:30:11.:30:18.

The rot isn't just within the Muslim communities.

:30:19.:30:21.

Consider all those retired British officials and others who shill,

:30:22.:30:25.

and are in the pay of the Saudis and other foreign states,

:30:26.:30:29.

even while they pump the extreme versions of Islam into our country.

:30:30.:30:35.

It is high time we became serious too.

:30:36.:30:45.

Islamist extremism is flourishing in our country.

:30:46.:30:53.

We're failing to defeat it, so what can we do about it?

:30:54.:31:00.

Whenever I say we must counter those Muslim organisations

:31:01.:31:03.

who are promoting hatred, discrimination, and sometimes even

:31:04.:31:08.

violence, I'm often either ignored by some politicians out

:31:09.:31:12.

of a misplaced fear of cultural sensitivity, or I find myself

:31:13.:31:15.

experiencing abuse by some of my fellow Muslims.

:31:16.:31:18.

These groups and their sympathisers tour Muslim communities,

:31:19.:31:27.

hold events, and have hundreds of thousands of followers

:31:28.:31:30.

Yet there is little counter challenge to their toxic

:31:31.:31:34.

anti-Western narrative, which includes opposition

:31:35.:31:40.

I've seen politicians and charities partner

:31:41.:31:44.

with and support some of these voices and groups.

:31:45.:31:49.

Many anti-racist groups will challenge those on the far

:31:50.:31:55.

right but not Muslim hate preachers, in the erroneous belief that to do

:31:56.:31:59.

But it's Islamophobic not to challenge them because it implies

:32:00.:32:06.

Following the attack on Monday, it cannot be business as usual.

:32:07.:32:16.

We must counter those who seek to divide us.

:32:17.:32:25.

Sarah Karen Allen Douglas Murray join me know. You wrote a book,

:32:26.:32:31.

strange death of Europe. What did you mean in your film when you said,

:32:32.:32:37.

let's get serious? Several things. Let me give you one example. The

:32:38.:32:41.

young man who carried out this atrocious attack was a student at

:32:42.:32:46.

Salford University for two years. He was on a campus which is, from its

:32:47.:32:51.

leadership to its student leadership, opposes all aspects of

:32:52.:32:54.

the government's only counter extremism programme. They boast they

:32:55.:32:59.

are boycotting it. They always did this. The university he was at was

:33:00.:33:05.

against the only counter extremism policy this state has. This is just

:33:06.:33:11.

one example of a much bigger problem. What are you suggesting?

:33:12.:33:17.

Shut down the University? Force them to change their policies? I think in

:33:18.:33:26.

the case of Salford, which discourages students from reporting

:33:27.:33:34.

Islamic extremism... When you discover you have produced a suicide

:33:35.:33:38.

bomber in Manchester, you should be held responsible. What do you say to

:33:39.:33:42.

that? I think it is quite clear from I am experienced there have been

:33:43.:33:48.

politicians who have undermined Prevent, community organisations,

:33:49.:33:51.

Islamist groups who have been at the forefront of undermining and

:33:52.:33:56.

countering Prevent, but also wider counter extremism measures. Islamist

:33:57.:34:03.

-- Islamist extremes and has flourished in this country. If

:34:04.:34:07.

Summer Rae had given us a crystal ball ten years ago and said, look

:34:08.:34:11.

forward and you will see hundreds of people leave this country to join

:34:12.:34:15.

Isis, we will have hundreds of people convicted of Islamist

:34:16.:34:18.

offences, I think we would have been quite shocked that things have got

:34:19.:34:22.

worse as opposed to getting better. Douglas Murray, the essence of your

:34:23.:34:26.

argument when you made the comparison between the numbers of

:34:27.:34:28.

Muslims in other countries is that we have too much Islam in Britain?

:34:29.:34:34.

The aunt Tilly Muslim Brotherhood give is that the answer to

:34:35.:34:38.

absolutely everything is Islam. Less Islam is a good thing. Let me

:34:39.:34:44.

finish. The Islamic world is in the middle of a very serious problem. It

:34:45.:34:47.

has been going on since the beginning. I think it is not worth

:34:48.:34:51.

continuing to risk our own security simply in order to be politically

:34:52.:34:57.

correct. I would disagree with Douglas on that. Nobody is going to

:34:58.:35:01.

deny that since the end of the 20th century there has been a rise in

:35:02.:35:04.

Islamist extreme terror organisations. Yes, there is a

:35:05.:35:09.

crisis within contemporary Islam, but there is a class. There are

:35:10.:35:13.

competing claims about what the faith stands for. While we are

:35:14.:35:16.

seeing Islamist terror organisations, leading theologians

:35:17.:35:22.

are saying that the concept of a caliphate is outdated. Muslims

:35:23.:35:27.

should be adopting a human rights culture. I entirely agree with that.

:35:28.:35:32.

There are obviously people trying to counter that. I would urge us to

:35:33.:35:38.

take the long view. In the history of Islam there have been many

:35:39.:35:42.

reformers. Most of the time they have ended a up being the ones on

:35:43.:35:45.

the brunt of the violence. I deeply resent what you and others do in

:35:46.:35:49.

this country. I want you to win. But they are a Billy good minority. A

:35:50.:35:55.

poll last year found that two thirds of British Muslims found they would

:35:56.:35:58.

not report a family member they found to be involved in extremism to

:35:59.:36:05.

the police. You are proposing more Draconian measures. I wish they

:36:06.:36:13.

could win. We should do everything we can to support people like that.

:36:14.:36:17.

What we should recognise the scale of the problem is beyond our current

:36:18.:36:23.

understanding. You counter radicalisation on a university

:36:24.:36:26.

campus or online? Discussion we had with Ben Wallace about the material

:36:27.:36:31.

that is out there. If we pursue in a hard-line way perhaps the sort of

:36:32.:36:35.

thing Douglas Murray is suggesting, gone is freedom of speech, gone is

:36:36.:36:43.

freedom of debate and discussion? The best way to counter extremism is

:36:44.:36:47.

through the prism of human rights. We cannot abandon our human rights

:36:48.:36:54.

to fight extremism. Where I think we are going wrong, where there is a

:36:55.:36:58.

gap, is the lack of counter work to challenge Islamist ideals. How many

:36:59.:37:04.

people are going to say we need to counter that strict narrative? That

:37:05.:37:10.

is where we are not doing enough work. What about the human rights

:37:11.:37:16.

point, that you cannot take away people's human rights? I'm not

:37:17.:37:19.

suggesting that. I'm suggesting we do things that ensure that 22 people

:37:20.:37:26.

don't get blown up on an average Monday again, OK? Dissent to be

:37:27.:37:32.

opposed to people want to blow up our

:37:33.:37:39.

rights. If you're taking government money and you are an institution

:37:40.:37:41.

like Salford University you should be held responsible for not

:37:42.:37:45.

cooperating with standard security measures. You can challenge

:37:46.:37:49.

extremism without abandoning human rights. We have got to actually

:37:50.:37:56.

counter the Islamist narrative. We're not doing enough. This is not

:37:57.:38:00.

about closing down free speech. This is encouraging it. This is the most

:38:01.:38:04.

effective way of countering the Islamist narrative. Why isn't it

:38:05.:38:11.

doing better? A number of reasons. One is there is a denial taking

:38:12.:38:17.

place. A lot of apologetics. Part of it is the way we talk about Muslims

:38:18.:38:21.

in this country. We use the term Muslim community as if they are

:38:22.:38:25.

homogenous. There is a positive trend but there is a negative trend

:38:26.:38:29.

among British Muslims. We need to counter those promoting the idea

:38:30.:38:34.

that Muslims are part of a collective identity. I agree. It is

:38:35.:38:39.

also the case there is massive push back because a lot of Muslims are

:38:40.:38:43.

defending the faith in this country. We think we can push them down a

:38:44.:38:47.

better path but they are defending absolutely everything. We need to

:38:48.:38:50.

get real about that. Thank you very much.

:38:51.:38:51.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:38:52.:38:53.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:38:54.:39:00.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

:39:01.:39:02.

With 11 days to go and campaigning having resumed by all the parties,

:39:03.:39:09.

I'll be asking Labour's Kezia Dugdale and Ruth Davidson

:39:10.:39:12.

of the Conservatives to assess their prospects

:39:13.:39:13.

Well, we now know the details of all the party's general

:39:14.:39:22.

election pledges, bar one, the SNP who'll launch

:39:23.:39:23.

Shortly, I'll be speaking to Kezia Dugdale to see how

:39:24.:39:27.

she views Scottish Labour's prospects but first our reporter

:39:28.:39:30.

Andrew Black has been looking at some of Labour's promises.

:39:31.:39:40.

Labour's fight in this election with a key pledge to end austerity. It

:39:41.:39:48.

also says it is going to oppose a second referendum on Scottish

:39:49.:39:51.

independence at the same time as arguing for a more federalised

:39:52.:39:55.

country. On the economy, Labour wants to cut loopholes and increase

:39:56.:40:03.

business tax to end austerity and public services. It is time to

:40:04.:40:07.

accept the result of the referendum and strike a deal in the national

:40:08.:40:12.

interest, Labour says. That includes guaranteeing the rights of EU

:40:13.:40:16.

nationals living in Scotland as well as the rights of Scots living

:40:17.:40:21.

elsewhere in the EU. On energy, Labour wants to ban onshore fracking

:40:22.:40:26.

and cap energy prices to keep average bills under ?1000 a year.

:40:27.:40:31.

When it comes to transport, the party wants private rail companies

:40:32.:40:35.

brought back into public ownership, that would include the likes of

:40:36.:40:39.

ScotRail, and it wants the HS2 high-speed rail line to move beyond

:40:40.:40:44.

the North of England into Glasgow and Edinburgh. On the issue of

:40:45.:40:49.

welfare, Labour would scrap the benefits sanctions system, end the

:40:50.:40:53.

so-called bedroom tax, and bring back housing benefit for under 21s.

:40:54.:41:03.

On defence, Labour says it will continue to support the renewal of

:41:04.:41:05.

Trident nuclear weapons even though the party leader Jeremy Corbyn is a

:41:06.:41:07.

long-standing opponent. Well, joining me now

:41:08.:41:08.

is the Scottish Labour Let's start on Manchester and the

:41:09.:41:15.

speech on foreign policy Jeremy Corbyn made after it. You've been

:41:16.:41:19.

saying this morning it is reasonable to ask for an open debate and to

:41:20.:41:26.

have no issues, but what gave offence was when Mr Corbyn said many

:41:27.:41:30.

experts, including professionals in our security services have pointed

:41:31.:41:35.

to the connections between wars our government has fought in other

:41:36.:41:39.

countries, such as Libya, and terrorism at home. It is that

:41:40.:41:43.

implication that somehow we are to blame for what happened in

:41:44.:41:47.

Manchester that gave offence. Would you distance from that? That any one

:41:48.:41:57.

person to blame for the event in Manchester, and that is the

:41:58.:42:01.

terrorist, the man who strapped a suicide bomb at a pop concert,

:42:02.:42:06.

surrounded by young teenage girls, enjoying a music concert. There is

:42:07.:42:10.

no excuse for that, there is no explaining it away, he is 100%

:42:11.:42:14.

responsible for those actions. Jeremy Corbyn use the first day of

:42:15.:42:18.

the general election campaign resuming to make a serious speech

:42:19.:42:22.

about foreign policy... That particular statement, would you

:42:23.:42:25.

distance yourself from that? Could you read it to me again? Many

:42:26.:42:32.

experts have pointed to the connections between wars our

:42:33.:42:36.

governments have supported or fought in other countries, such as Libya,

:42:37.:42:40.

and terrorism at home. The implication that has been drawn from

:42:41.:42:44.

that is that Mr Corbyn is suggesting we are responsible for what has

:42:45.:42:48.

happened. He hasn't said that at all. I just read it to you. It is

:42:49.:42:54.

very clear Jeremy Corbyn and I and everyone across this country

:42:55.:42:57.

recognises the only person responsible for what happened in

:42:58.:43:01.

Manchester was that terrorist. What Jeremy said on Friday was that

:43:02.:43:05.

previous decisions around foreign policy have had an impact on the

:43:06.:43:08.

growth of terrorist organisations around the world and most people

:43:09.:43:12.

would recognise it has had an impact. Nobody is suggesting that as

:43:13.:43:16.

an excuse for the type of event we witnessed. When you asked why people

:43:17.:43:22.

should vote Labour in Scotland, the first reason you gave was to oppose

:43:23.:43:27.

another independence referendum. It seems to me the Tories are

:43:28.:43:31.

benefiting from that sentiment. Why do you think people are not turning

:43:32.:43:35.

to Labour when they want independence? That is what people

:43:36.:43:42.

tell me as I travel the length and breadth of this country. I'm the

:43:43.:43:46.

only leader who has travelled from Stornoway to Lockerbie, and I meet

:43:47.:43:49.

people everywhere that are distressed and worried about the

:43:50.:43:53.

instability that a second independence referendum would cause

:43:54.:43:56.

and the damage it would do, in the form of ?15 billion worth of cuts. I

:43:57.:44:02.

say we stand firmly against independence... The Tories are

:44:03.:44:06.

benefiting from that. I'm making an argument on how to invest in public

:44:07.:44:10.

services. You've been ambiguous on this. I don't accept that. You said

:44:11.:44:18.

in September 2015 that Labour MSPs should be free to campaign for

:44:19.:44:22.

independence and you said you might consider voting on independence

:44:23.:44:25.

should Scotland being forced out of the EU. I've been absolutely

:44:26.:44:32.

clear... So, would you like to say now you rather regret some of those

:44:33.:44:36.

statements he made earlier? I want to say the same thing I've said

:44:37.:44:41.

every single interview is I am opposed to independence and a second

:44:42.:44:45.

independence referendum as is the Labour party in the UK and Scotland.

:44:46.:44:49.

The cause of the damage it would do... So when you said Labour SNP 's

:44:50.:44:57.

should campaign for independence, did you miss beat? We are opposed to

:44:58.:45:00.

independence and a second independence referendum. You

:45:01.:45:05.

suggested there should be a new active union. It doesn't seem to be

:45:06.:45:10.

in the manifesto. What we have in the UK wide manifesto... It isn't in

:45:11.:45:14.

your Scottish manifesto. We are talking about a federal solution...

:45:15.:45:21.

Why doesn't it mention an active union cuisine you keep interrupting

:45:22.:45:29.

me. We can prevent a hard breaks it. You can oppose independence and you

:45:30.:45:37.

don't have to accept the status quo which is why want to see the vast

:45:38.:45:42.

majority of powers come to the Scottish Parliament. The phrase you

:45:43.:45:46.

see is a presumption of devolution. The direction of travel towards a

:45:47.:45:51.

federalised UK. I don't understand why your own Scottish manifesto

:45:52.:45:54.

doesn't mention the policy you've been promoting of a new active

:45:55.:46:00.

union. We've been promoting a Scottish Convention, Scotland's

:46:01.:46:03.

creation ship with the UK changing, having more powers in the Scottish

:46:04.:46:10.

Parliament. What we haven't had in the UK is a similar debate about

:46:11.:46:15.

devolution in England or Wales. Those words are not even in the

:46:16.:46:22.

Scottish manifesto. There is a presumption of devolution, all those

:46:23.:46:26.

powers coming back to the Scottish Parliament and that we need further

:46:27.:46:30.

powers from Westminster to Holyrood. Let me give you an example. Leaving

:46:31.:46:36.

the EU means an end to the social chapter, workers' rights, maternity

:46:37.:46:39.

leave, paternity leave, they are going to be coming back from

:46:40.:46:42.

Brussels and I'd like those pals to come to the Scottish Parliament so

:46:43.:46:46.

we can make different choices from the Tories which will require more

:46:47.:46:51.

devolution. These are complex issues that are not aided by is that

:46:52.:46:55.

general election. What there is is a clear commitment to the presumption

:46:56.:46:59.

of devolution and a radical reform in the UK so you can reject the

:47:00.:47:04.

extremes of the SNP and hard right Tory Brexit. The SNP say they want

:47:05.:47:09.

another referendum of independence, it was in the manifesto in 2016...

:47:10.:47:14.

People don't want another referendum. Are you saying the SNP

:47:15.:47:18.

have no mandate? I'm saying very clearly wherever I go, people... Are

:47:19.:47:24.

using the SNP have no mandate to call another referendum? The SNP

:47:25.:47:30.

told us the last referendum a once-in-a-lifetime opportunities.

:47:31.:47:36.

The particular culmination of circumstances that has arisen that

:47:37.:47:42.

was mentioned in the SNP manifesto last year, they say they have a

:47:43.:47:45.

mandate for another referendum. If it is in the manifesto, you'd

:47:46.:47:49.

normally agree they'd have a mandate. Are using they don't have a

:47:50.:47:53.

mandate for another referendum? It is clear that after the EU

:47:54.:48:01.

referendum Nicola Sturgeon used Brexit to fight for another

:48:02.:48:04.

referendum. I'm asking whether you accept they have a mandate. Once

:48:05.:48:09.

again you've not allowed me to provide a substantive answer. She's

:48:10.:48:13.

a Brexit was the excuse for another independence referendum but the

:48:14.:48:16.

problem the SNP have is they can't tellers whether Scotland stays,

:48:17.:48:21.

whether we have to reapply for the EU, or whether we will have a noise

:48:22.:48:25.

style arrangement. Her manifesto commitment for a referendum has

:48:26.:48:29.

fallen apart because she can't be clear on Europe. More importantly,

:48:30.:48:33.

the people of Scotland don't want to be dragged back to the arguments of

:48:34.:48:37.

the past. We have to leave it behind us. We were told it was

:48:38.:48:41.

once-in-a-lifetime and it should be respected. That's why I am opposed

:48:42.:48:45.

to a second referendum and why I'm also trying to get this debate to be

:48:46.:48:51.

about investment in public services. You've given a substantive answer.

:48:52.:48:56.

But you haven't answered the question. Are you saying the SNP

:48:57.:49:00.

have no mandate to call another referendum, yes or no? I don't want

:49:01.:49:05.

one... I know but do they have a mandate? The mandate I have is to

:49:06.:49:11.

oppose a second referendum. People will say that it might be reasonable

:49:12.:49:16.

to leave another independence referendum until that Brexit

:49:17.:49:23.

solution is worked out. I am not anti democratic but it was a

:49:24.:49:27.

once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. You then suggest Brexit gives us another

:49:28.:49:33.

referendum. The SNP have three different positions but they

:49:34.:49:36.

continue to bang on about independence when they can't be

:49:37.:49:39.

clear to the electorate which is why 70 people are angry at the SNP and

:49:40.:49:44.

it is going in a bad direction for them. Ie ruling it out? Yes, we are

:49:45.:49:50.

against a second independence referendum. It is annoying when

:49:51.:50:00.

people interrupt you, isn't it? Will Labour MPs voted against it? We have

:50:01.:50:05.

been very clear we are opposed to independence and a second

:50:06.:50:08.

referendum. In hypothetical scenario you are doing, we would be well into

:50:09.:50:12.

processes, the UK Government would have had to have gone into the

:50:13.:50:15.

detail, the franchise and the rest of it. The Tories would have to

:50:16.:50:18.

expect there will be a referendum. We are a far cry away from that.

:50:19.:50:22.

It's Ruth Davidson that accepted in that scenario that she would rocket.

:50:23.:50:24.

Our job to do now is to block a referendum the people of Scotland

:50:25.:50:40.

don't want it, nor do they want independence. In the UK Labour

:50:41.:50:42.

manifesto, they say they want to guarantee there will be no tax hikes

:50:43.:50:45.

to middle and low earners. Why are they wrong? I'm not suggesting there

:50:46.:50:47.

are wrong. Yes, you are. That's not true. Income tax is devolved

:50:48.:50:50.

Scottish parliament. That's why we have a different position in the

:50:51.:50:55.

Scottish Parliament, in the Scottish Labour Party. The tax proposals I

:50:56.:51:00.

put forward to the electorate last year released ?690 million. That's

:51:01.:51:03.

the amount of money we needed to be able to credibly say we could oppose

:51:04.:51:06.

any further cuts to local services, we could fulfil the commitment we

:51:07.:51:11.

made to increase child benefit, ?20 a month by 2020, raising 30,000

:51:12.:51:16.

children out of poverty, and to address things like the nurses'

:51:17.:51:22.

pick-up. If you apply the policies to Scotland, it would generate

:51:23.:51:26.

around ?330 million, so we'll be able to fulfil those commitments to

:51:27.:51:31.

be opposed to Tory austerities and pay for child benefit increases. The

:51:32.:51:34.

wealth in England and Wales resides in London in the south-east. We just

:51:35.:51:37.

don't have as many people in Scotland and whether a year. So I

:51:38.:51:42.

have to use the powers of the Scottish Parliament differently.

:51:43.:51:44.

What would you reply differently to people in middle incomes in

:51:45.:51:49.

Scotland. Hang on a minute, we spend 60% roughly per person more on

:51:50.:51:59.

public spending in Scotland. -- 16%. Some public services, particularly

:52:00.:52:01.

education, are doing better in England. Why should we have to pay

:52:02.:52:07.

more basic tax to pay for public services which we're already

:52:08.:52:11.

spending 16% more per person on? We have seen ?1.5 billion cut out of

:52:12.:52:16.

our local services. There has been much more cut in England. We are

:52:17.:52:20.

stealing that in the starting reality in the children of our

:52:21.:52:25.

schools, being failed by the SNP -- we are seeing that. Were already

:52:26.:52:31.

paying more, why should be taxed more? The median income is around

:52:32.:52:35.

?7,000 a year. In our proposals, someone earning that salary would

:52:36.:52:42.

pay around ?2.80 per week -- 20 ?7,000 a year. I'm not suggesting

:52:43.:52:46.

that that is insignificant. The price of doing that is increased

:52:47.:52:51.

cuts to public services, fewer teachers, support staff, the

:52:52.:52:54.

education record collapsing before our eyes and a failed generation. Is

:52:55.:52:59.

holding back our economy to not invest in public services. The

:53:00.:53:02.

Scottish parliament is immensely powerful, it has the power to make

:53:03.:53:08.

different decisions than Tories. If you want to invest in public

:53:09.:53:15.

services, grow the economy,... If you generated the same amount. Would

:53:16.:53:20.

you do that, what Jeremy Corbyn is suggesting? I would go for a

:53:21.:53:25.

progressive solution like that. Income tax is devolved to the

:53:26.:53:28.

Scottish parliament. I would introduce a 50p top rate and use the

:53:29.:53:32.

basic rate to generate the money we need to scrap the cats. We need to

:53:33.:53:36.

do that to raise the money we need to stop the cuts -- stop the cuts.

:53:37.:53:42.

When I produce proposals, assuming you were in power and Labour in

:53:43.:53:45.

power in the UK, they would pay an extra 1p in income tax, plus have a

:53:46.:53:50.

lower threshold for the 40p rate, now in force in Scotland. Plus

:53:51.:53:55.

whatever tax rises Jeremy Corbyn decides for people earning over

:53:56.:54:01.

?80,000. Plus a 50p rate for over 150,000? I pay less tax... I earn

:54:02.:54:09.

?60,000 a year, I pay less than I did in 2010 because of the tax cuts

:54:10.:54:12.

the Tories put in place. The price of that is community centres,

:54:13.:54:15.

libraries closing, teachers not having the resources they need. You

:54:16.:54:19.

can reject the programme from the Tories and choose Labour's instead,

:54:20.:54:22.

which is about investing in public services and helping grow the

:54:23.:54:26.

economy. Labour is committed to abolishing the so-called rape clause

:54:27.:54:31.

in the welfare system. Is Labour committed to abolishing the

:54:32.:54:44.

limitation of tax credits to two children? Yes. It's not clear in the

:54:45.:54:47.

UK manifesto whether you are committed to that. Is abundantly

:54:48.:54:50.

clear that Labour is going for additional investment in the

:54:51.:54:51.

security system. We would also reform it. We would introduce a real

:54:52.:54:54.

living wage of ?10 per hour, that would reduce the benefits bill. We

:54:55.:54:57.

are committed to ending that cap. We would have to leave it there.

:54:58.:54:59.

Well, in a moment, I'll be speaking to the leader

:55:00.:55:02.

of the Scottish Conservatives, Ruth Davidson but first Andrew Black

:55:03.:55:04.

takes a brief look at some of the key Tory election pledges.

:55:05.:55:08.

The Conservative manifesto points to what it calls the giant challenges

:55:09.:55:15.

facing the country. These include, says the party, strengthening the

:55:16.:55:22.

economy and adjusting to life in a post-Brexit Britain. On the economy,

:55:23.:55:25.

the Tories want to increase the amount of money you earn before

:55:26.:55:31.

paying income tax to ?12,500 by 2020. The party also wants to cut

:55:32.:55:35.

net migration to below 100,000 across the UK. On energy, the

:55:36.:55:42.

Scottish Conservatives want to boost support for Scotland's shale gas

:55:43.:55:47.

industry, that is essentially fracking. As well as support

:55:48.:55:50.

offshore wind projects. There would be fewer large-scale offshore wind

:55:51.:55:56.

farms. When it comes to welfare benefits, the Conservatives say they

:55:57.:56:00.

will ditch the pensions triple lock under which pension rises are

:56:01.:56:03.

calculated, opting instead for a double lock. The Scottish

:56:04.:56:07.

Conservatives want to protect universal winter fuel payments for

:56:08.:56:11.

all pensioners in Scotland with no means testing, unlike party policy

:56:12.:56:16.

south of the border. On the fishing industry, a pledge to support

:56:17.:56:21.

workers after Britain need the EU. And the Conservatives say the second

:56:22.:56:25.

Scottish independence referendum will not be held unless there is

:56:26.:56:29.

public consent for it to happen. And that there won't be a vote on the

:56:30.:56:32.

issue until the Brexit process has played out. Well, I'm joined by the

:56:33.:56:40.

leader of the Scottish Conservatives. Can we start with

:56:41.:56:48.

Manchester. Jeremy Corbyn 's speech was described by Boris Johnson as

:56:49.:56:52.

absolutely monstrous. He said it was absolutely extraordinary and

:56:53.:56:54.

inexplicable in this week of all weeks, that there should be any

:56:55.:56:58.

attempt to justify or register make the actions of terrorism in this

:56:59.:57:04.

way. Would you distance yourself from that? You know, having a

:57:05.:57:07.

sensible level-headed debate without that kind of language is arguably

:57:08.:57:12.

what we need at the moment. I think Isis said themselves what was behind

:57:13.:57:15.

this attack, they set themselves that Britain's foreign policy was

:57:16.:57:23.

secondary, they said it was attacked because this is not a Muslim

:57:24.:57:27.

country, not a country of believers. In terms of who perpetrated this,

:57:28.:57:31.

whose fault it is, this is the coward -- this is not a country of

:57:32.:57:38.

believers. Streams of teenage girls were leaving, and detonated a bomb.

:57:39.:57:41.

He is at fault for this. We can talk about foreign policy all we like,

:57:42.:57:44.

but to suggest that when such terror attacks have happened in countries

:57:45.:57:48.

like Belgium, like Sweden, who haven't shared the foreign policy

:57:49.:57:51.

Britain. Are you suggesting what Jeremy Corbyn is suggesting? You

:57:52.:57:54.

would say he didn't mean that at all. If you read the text and look

:57:55.:57:59.

at the very quote that you read out to Kezia Dugdale just a few moments

:58:00.:58:03.

ago, he is saying that it is part of the issue of why people are

:58:04.:58:07.

attacking us. We were not involved in Afghanistan or Iraq before the

:58:08.:58:12.

911 bombing. Sweden wasn't involved in these sorts of conflict either.

:58:13.:58:16.

Yet they have still been subject to the same attack. This is about a

:58:17.:58:20.

death cult that hate our freedoms, our democracy and the fact that we

:58:21.:58:23.

tell our young girls, it's all right to go to a pop concert, it's all

:58:24.:58:26.

right to dream that you can be the woman on the stage. The way we beat

:58:27.:58:29.

them is to continue to tell our young women that that's exactly what

:58:30.:58:32.

they can do. There's nothing to stop them. Independence, your number one

:58:33.:58:38.

issue this election. In your manifesto, you introduced new

:58:39.:58:41.

criteria for whether or not there could be another referendum. You

:58:42.:58:44.

said it would need public consent. What does that mean? It's not new.

:58:45.:58:49.

Nicola Sturgeon said she was forcing through in March this year this idea

:58:50.:58:52.

that she was going to Apennines Brexit to try and drag us back to

:58:53.:58:54.

another referendum on independence. another referendum on independence.

:58:55.:59:01.

-- going to use Brexit. There are two principles here. Scotland can be

:59:02.:59:04.

dragged back to another independence referendum when we don't know what

:59:05.:59:07.

the options look like, because we do not Brexit looks like, we don't know

:59:08.:59:10.

what independence looks like because she won't even tell as it should be

:59:11.:59:15.

in the art of the EU. Nor should we be dragged back there when the

:59:16.:59:19.

people of Scotland -- in or out of the EU. I have an ally on that,

:59:20.:59:25.

Nicola Sturgeon. Before the 2016 election, I was standing next to her

:59:26.:59:29.

on a platform during one of the TV debates and she said time and time

:59:30.:59:32.

again that if the people of Scotland didn't want a referendum, there

:59:33.:59:35.

would not be won. If they hadn't changed their mind, she wouldn't

:59:36.:59:38.

have a right to call one, and they haven't changed their minds. The S

:59:39.:59:42.

said they have it in their manifesto, they won the Scottish

:59:43.:59:48.

elections last year, -- the SNP. What are you saying? Are using the

:59:49.:59:50.

opinion polls have to go different way? They had conditional statement

:59:51.:59:55.

in the manifesto, they lost their majority. They also told the public

:59:56.:00:00.

that if there wasn't a change in public will for this, then they

:00:01.:00:05.

wouldn't drag us now. Also, we saw in 2011 what public consent looked

:00:06.:00:09.

like, we saw that there was broad agreement across all parties, even

:00:10.:00:12.

people like Kezia Dugdale and myself, recognise there was a

:00:13.:00:15.

mandate for a referendum and voted for it. You're not suggesting that

:00:16.:00:21.

the SNP don't have legitimacy in arguing for another referendum

:00:22.:00:24.

unless you agree with it? They will argue for another referendum until

:00:25.:00:27.

the cows come home. You as them any question at all, and their answers

:00:28.:00:34.

are always independence. They have a mandate for it. I don't accept when

:00:35.:00:38.

they do. When you lose your majority, when you have a

:00:39.:00:41.

conditional statement in your manifesto... They won the election.

:00:42.:00:46.

Not only did they sign an agreement that said, you know, we won't come

:00:47.:00:49.

back here, we will respect the result, there are clearly not

:00:50.:00:52.

respecting it. They also said, Nicola Sturgeon of the people of

:00:53.:00:55.

Scotland in the eye and said if there wasn't a change in public

:00:56.:00:59.

opinion, she wouldn't drag us back there. And she is dragging us back

:01:00.:01:02.

there, and I will stop out. People out there will help me stop by

:01:03.:01:06.

voting for my party. Let's say you achieved your dream, and you are in

:01:07.:01:13.

a position to become First Minister. Let's say the Scottish Conservatives

:01:14.:01:16.

got the number of seats and MSPs that the SNP got last year. And you

:01:17.:01:19.

had something in your manifesto that you wanted to implement, and

:01:20.:01:23.

everyone else turned round and said, "Even though you've won, almost an

:01:24.:01:27.

absolute but not quite majority, you've got no mandate for that." You

:01:28.:01:32.

before US, the first person saying that is attack Dhaka you would be

:01:33.:01:40.

furious. So attacks on democracy are OK? You have to have a variety of

:01:41.:01:46.

opinion, there has to be political and public consent. You said last

:01:47.:01:49.

year that if the Scottish parliament voted for another referendum, the UK

:01:50.:01:52.

Government should not stand on its way. I have never said it should be

:01:53.:01:56.

denied. That's a direct quote. I did and said the last time either in

:01:57.:02:00.

2014. Why have you changed your mind? The Prime Minister and myself

:02:01.:02:04.

and the Secretary of State have said exactly the same thing. This is the

:02:05.:02:08.

criteria... Had never said the UK Parliament should deny the Scottish

:02:09.:02:16.

parliament the right. You decide there's never going to be another

:02:17.:02:18.

referendum ever again. There cannot be one when the people of Scotland

:02:19.:02:22.

do not what the options look like. Nor should there be one when the

:02:23.:02:25.

people of Scotland don't want one. It is very clear that the people of

:02:26.:02:28.

Scotland don't want one, that's why you're seeing some of the panic

:02:29.:02:32.

reactions is become the SNP, because they are realising they started the

:02:33.:02:36.

campaign putting independence at the heart of it, but now they're talking

:02:37.:02:40.

about it less because they know the people of Scotland are telling them

:02:41.:02:43.

to fix our schools and hospitals, and stop dragging it appears we

:02:44.:02:47.

don't want to go. I accept this is not you, there cannot be another

:02:48.:02:51.

referendum until the Brexit prices have played out. What does that

:02:52.:02:55.

mean? Until we know how it works on the ground. There will be a primary

:02:56.:02:59.

transfer of powers as we leave the EU from Brussels to Westminster. But

:03:00.:03:06.

there's also then going to be secondary transfer of powers to the

:03:07.:03:09.

devolved administrations, and even to local authorities in England, to.

:03:10.:03:15.

It has played out. Does that mean to note the final Brexit deal is, or a

:03:16.:03:20.

period after that? And we know how it's working out in practice? This

:03:21.:03:24.

is in response to Nicola Sturgeon, who is promoting this. The day after

:03:25.:03:29.

the Brexit Road, she stood up and said she had already instructed

:03:30.:03:31.

civil servants to draw up the legislation for a referendum. She

:03:32.:03:39.

wants her initial ask, was to have it within 16 months' time. We will

:03:40.:03:44.

know that by 2019. We will know what the focus of the deal is, we won't

:03:45.:03:47.

know the secondary transfer of powers. I have to say, a lot of

:03:48.:03:52.

people out there agree with me that we need to make sure we get this

:03:53.:03:55.

right. One way about getting it right is having different nations

:03:56.:03:58.

within the United Kingdom pulling apart just at the point the country

:03:59.:04:04.

needs to pull together to get a good deal on Brexit. Can you see the

:04:05.:04:07.

conditions that the Conservative Party bows UK wide and in the

:04:08.:04:11.

Scottish manifesto had laid down for another Scottish referendum being

:04:12.:04:15.

met before the next Scottish elections in 2021? I'm not going to

:04:16.:04:20.

absolutely, I'm not going to advocate for this to be held, not

:04:21.:04:25.

within the next generation, which is what the people of this country were

:04:26.:04:29.

promised. You have accepted that the SNP have some sort of mandate,

:04:30.:04:35.

you're not just saying no. It's a weak mandate. Can you see the

:04:36.:04:38.

conditions you have laid down in your manifesto being met before

:04:39.:04:43.

2021? With the current trajectory of support in this country going down

:04:44.:04:50.

for an under per -- for another referendum, I don't see it. The

:04:51.:04:53.

people don't want it, I'm going to stand up for them. At the moment,

:04:54.:04:57.

with the trajectory have seen over the last two years, there is no

:04:58.:05:00.

support for another independence referendum, it doesn't look like

:05:01.:05:04.

there will be support for it. As we see from Nicola Sturgeon trying

:05:05.:05:07.

quietly this week to did independence, as a campaigning

:05:08.:05:13.

tool... And your critics, not just the SNP will say again, you are

:05:14.:05:16.

tampering with democracy. What you're trying to do is put things

:05:17.:05:19.

off until after the next Scottish election in the hope that the SNP

:05:20.:05:23.

mandate runs out and they don't have a majority from their position.

:05:24.:05:29.

People know where the parties stand. Jeremy Corbyn says he is fine with

:05:30.:05:35.

another independence referendum. We've spoken to the Labour party

:05:36.:05:39.

leader in Scotland who is blocking deals in local government with a

:05:40.:05:44.

tourist or she can prop up and put the SNP in power. She says it is

:05:45.:05:51.

fine for her MSPs to campaign for independence. If you want to stop

:05:52.:05:55.

this, help me. I'm telling people at home help me stop this. Kezia

:05:56.:06:00.

Dugdale did go back on that. Should Nicola Sturgeon be given a seat at

:06:01.:06:08.

the Brexit talks? I want there to be work putting from Scotland which is

:06:09.:06:11.

why I've been helping facilitate people... She wants to be in the

:06:12.:06:15.

talks. Nicola Sturgeon wants Scotland to be out of the UK but in

:06:16.:06:19.

Europe so if she wants to sit at the table, which side of the table does

:06:20.:06:23.

she want to sit out? If you does not the UK to exist and Scotland back

:06:24.:06:30.

in? You say you are open to a review of the week clause. And you faced

:06:31.:06:36.

criticism for not calling for such a review to take place would you like

:06:37.:06:40.

to take the opportunity to rectify that call for a review of how it

:06:41.:06:45.

operates in practice? We've got to see how it in practice. You'd call

:06:46.:06:50.

on Theresa May to institute such a review? We haven't seen it work

:06:51.:06:53.

because it's just been brought in but this is a system and we've got

:06:54.:06:58.

to make clear... So, how are you open to a review? People have made

:06:59.:07:02.

criticisms of this and let me address them because this is a

:07:03.:07:05.

sensitive issue. This is about making sure people who have had

:07:06.:07:10.

children in the worst of circumstances get extra help so that

:07:11.:07:13.

there is a policy that has been brought in that says for the first

:07:14.:07:23.

to make children you don't. So people within the benefit system,

:07:24.:07:26.

they face the same questions. They are right to be exceptions of that,

:07:27.:07:30.

people who have had children born out of rape, this is getting them

:07:31.:07:33.

extra help. The criticism has been about how that is done. The system

:07:34.:07:40.

adopted by the DWP is the same system of having a third-party

:07:41.:07:43.

professional fill out the form in the same way that has cross-party

:07:44.:07:47.

support for domestic violence victims. If that can be improved and

:07:48.:07:51.

people have suggested before it was ruled out but it could let's have a

:07:52.:07:55.

look at that. That is what I have said. So if we see there are

:07:56.:07:58.

problems and complications once it is rolled out, we can review that I

:07:59.:08:04.

am open to that. Why not just oppose the underlying policy of restricting

:08:05.:08:12.

benefits to two children? You've defied Theresa May on winter fuel

:08:13.:08:19.

payments. There are many pensioners who are getting the winter fuel

:08:20.:08:22.

payment who can afford it. There are strong arguments to giving benefits

:08:23.:08:26.

to people with extra children, especially when we have a declining

:08:27.:08:32.

population. It seems an anti-Tory policies. To be fair this isn't

:08:33.:08:36.

about child benefit. You get child benefit how many children you have.

:08:37.:08:40.

You get the same benefit for your tenth as for your first, this is

:08:41.:08:44.

about child tax credit services about the same decisions for

:08:45.:08:49.

people... Why not say it is wrong? It is about making a fair system...

:08:50.:08:56.

Why is it right to restrict tax credits to children but wrong to

:08:57.:09:00.

means test winter fuel benefits? Well, Gordon, there are questions

:09:01.:09:04.

you have to ask when you start a family and your income doesn't go up

:09:05.:09:07.

automatically if you have another child and some of the questions that

:09:08.:09:11.

are being asked are the same for people not in that situation. In

:09:12.:09:15.

terms of the choice I made on devolution of winter fuel payments,

:09:16.:09:18.

if you want to speak about that, this is about the envelope.

:09:19.:09:23.

Millionaires get winter fuel benefits but poor people with more

:09:24.:09:27.

than two children don't get tax credits with yellow no, the decision

:09:28.:09:31.

my colleagues down south have made is all people over a certain age

:09:32.:09:35.

have help with their heating and fuel. They're going to means test

:09:36.:09:39.

that the money saved will be reinvested into social care. I'm

:09:40.:09:44.

choosing to say that within that envelope, and there is no extra

:09:45.:09:47.

investment either side of the border, to keep that with people who

:09:48.:09:51.

are over certain age to have that what they always wanted and what

:09:52.:09:57.

I've had before. Income tax. You want the rates to be seen in

:09:58.:10:01.

Scotland as an England rather than messing about with them, don't you?

:10:02.:10:06.

Yes. Given there is no commitment to not raising income tax in the Tory

:10:07.:10:10.

manifesto, if they raise it, will you support a rise in income tax in

:10:11.:10:14.

Scotland? There are no plans to raise that in the Conservative

:10:15.:10:19.

manifesto. It is not ruled out. Saying we've designated the skies

:10:20.:10:24.

green is not ruled out, either. So, Tories pledging no new taxes is

:10:25.:10:32.

normal and it is not there. We have raised the threshold for the lowest

:10:33.:10:35.

earners, we have a situation where Scotland is a contracting economy

:10:36.:10:38.

one quarter of a from recession. We shouldn't have higher taxes here

:10:39.:10:41.

because it is bad for the Scottish economy is. Thank you very much,

:10:42.:10:43.

Ruth Davidson. Well, listening to those interviews

:10:44.:10:44.

with Kezia Dugdale and Ruth Davidson was our Political

:10:45.:10:47.

Editor Brian Taylor. What you make of the dynamic? The

:10:48.:10:55.

two elements coming from your interviews there, the Constitution,

:10:56.:10:59.

both independence and Brexit, and always the economy. You have a

:11:00.:11:03.

situation where you have the Labour Party and SNP competing as to who is

:11:04.:11:10.

the best to counter what they characterise as austerity policies

:11:11.:11:14.

and competing with the page they are putting forward to the electorate. I

:11:15.:11:19.

was struck by Ruth Davidson's remarks she didn't expect a

:11:20.:11:22.

referendum along any time soon, given that is at least partly in the

:11:23.:11:27.

hands of the UK Conservative leadership. She also said, didn't

:11:28.:11:32.

she, not before 2021, which is when the mandate the Scottish government

:11:33.:11:36.

have got runs out. Should try to avoid saying there's precise dates.

:11:37.:11:41.

She was saying allow Brexit to happen and then allow the roll-out

:11:42.:11:45.

of Brexit to happen. That is the return of domestic powers to

:11:46.:11:48.

Westminster in the first place and ultimately to Holyrood as well. That

:11:49.:11:53.

will take some time, that will really take quite some time. I cast

:11:54.:11:57.

my mind back to the period when this policy was launched by the Prime

:11:58.:12:01.

Minister, just a short time before that there was a short news

:12:02.:12:04.

conference with David Mundell and Ruth Davidson. David Mundell was

:12:05.:12:08.

keen to say we're not saying no, we're not saying never, we might get

:12:09.:12:15.

to this. He was stressing not now but he was not now, not never. Ruth

:12:16.:12:20.

Davidson was saying, I don't see this coming any time soon. Remember,

:12:21.:12:26.

also, in her introduction to the Scottish Labour manifesto, Kezia

:12:27.:12:29.

Dugdale use the phrase Labour would never be in favour of getting that

:12:30.:12:33.

way. What she was doing there was attempting to use a degree of

:12:34.:12:39.

certainty, whereas you rightly pointed out they had a fair degree

:12:40.:12:44.

of vacillation before that. The SNP are the only party to produce a

:12:45.:12:51.

manifesto. Everything has been dominated by security, because of

:12:52.:12:56.

Manchester. It has become Corbyn versus May and the SNP need to punch

:12:57.:12:59.

through that, breakthrough and get a hearing. I mean, we have in the

:13:00.:13:06.

coming week the Scottish Greens and the Scottish Liberal Democrats

:13:07.:13:09.

publishing their manifesto. The Scottish Greens standing in three

:13:10.:13:12.

constituencies, the Liberal Democrats are taking account of the

:13:13.:13:21.

devolved powers. The SNP due to publish their manifesto on Tuesday.

:13:22.:13:25.

They are fighting on a series of fronts, the primary one on the

:13:26.:13:29.

anti-austerity, anti-Tory pitch, they are the ones to stop...

:13:30.:13:33.

Presuming there is a Tory victory, they are the ones to defend

:13:34.:13:37.

Scotland's interests in those circumstances. Labour are seeking to

:13:38.:13:41.

remove that from their stance. Thank you very much indeed for that.

:13:42.:13:43.

I'll be back at the same time next week.

:13:44.:13:47.

As voters prepare to go to the polls to choose who represents them

:13:48.:14:07.

the SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon joins me for the Andrew Neil Interviews.

:14:08.:14:12.

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