11/06/2017 Sunday Politics Scotland


11/06/2017

With guests Dominic Raab, Jon Ashworth, Anna Soubry and Graham Brady. Journalists Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Tom Newton Dunn are on the political panel.


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Transcript


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But stay with us for more drama as we can now go straight

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to the Sunday Politics with Andrew Neil who's

:00:00.:00:00.

We are indeed in the sunshine. Welcome from the heart of

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Westminster. Theresa May reappointing key figures

:00:14.:00:26.

to the Cabinet, sacking had to closest aides, Nick Timothy and

:00:27.:00:31.

Fiona Hill. After Conservative MPs demanded their removal in the

:00:32.:00:35.

Conservative failure to win an overall majority in the House of

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Commons. Over the next hour and a bit we'll continue to take stock on

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the remarkable events of the last 72 hours and try to work out where we

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go from here. First though, here's Adam Fleming

:00:45.:00:48.

with a reminder of the high octane I was going to say this

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chair is quite warm. Michael Fallon's bum

:00:52.:00:57.

was on this chair. Bums on seats, its election

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night at the BBC, hosted This is David Dimbleby's

:01:05.:01:07.

actual seat! Look, he's got four pencils,

:01:08.:01:11.

stopwatch and a calculator. And what we are saying

:01:12.:01:16.

is the Conservatives Note, they don't have an overall

:01:17.:01:23.

majority at this stage. 314 for the Conservatives,

:01:24.:01:31.

that's down 17. Luckily there were plenty

:01:32.:01:34.

of politicians who never are. What does this exit

:01:35.:01:43.

poll actually mean? Well, if it's accurate it means

:01:44.:01:50.

Theresa May has just presided over the greatest catastrophe that I can

:01:51.:01:53.

think of in the Conservative We haven't seen a seat change hands

:01:54.:01:56.

and we are hearing about possible Conservative gains in the Midlands

:01:57.:02:02.

and losses in London, People will write Ph.D.s about the

:02:03.:02:05.

2017 election Labour candidates were winning

:02:06.:02:10.

in unexpected places. Tories were losing in unexpected

:02:11.:02:17.

places, including eight members of the Government,

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like Treasury minister The Home Secretary, Amber Rudd,

:02:22.:02:22.

held on in Hastings...just. OK, the former Deputy Prime Minister

:02:23.:02:30.

and former leader of the Liberal Democrats,

:02:31.:02:33.

Nick Clegg, has been beaten I've always sought to stand

:02:34.:02:35.

by the liberal values I believe in, but I, of course, have encountered

:02:36.:02:41.

this evening something many people have encountered before tonight,

:02:42.:02:44.

and I suspect many people will encounter after tonight,

:02:45.:02:49.

which is - in politics you live by the sword, and you

:02:50.:02:51.

die by the sword. Lib Dem leader Tim Farron

:02:52.:02:54.

was narrowly re-elected in Cumbria, unlike the SNP's Westminster

:02:55.:03:00.

leader Angus Robertson, who lost his seat, former First

:03:01.:03:05.

Minister Alex Salmond defeated too. The Scottish National Party have

:03:06.:03:07.

lost many fine parliamentarians this evening, and that is a grievous blow

:03:08.:03:11.

to the SNP. But overall the results in Scotland

:03:12.:03:16.

show the SNP will have won a majority of the seats in this

:03:17.:03:20.

country and a majority of the vote. Paul Nuttall failed to get

:03:21.:03:23.

elected in Skegness So, the green room looking a bit

:03:24.:03:30.

ruined, a bit like Ukip I think we are doing

:03:31.:03:37.

better than the SNP. We deliberately didn't stand in some

:03:38.:03:41.

seats to try to give Brexit I think it's quite interesting

:03:42.:03:48.

the main leading Brexit candidates in this election

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are getting their seat back. Right, it's dawn in the real world

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and I found a pub that has been open What state are they going

:03:57.:04:17.

to be in, in there? And was it young people

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who had seen Corbyn, voted, and got the T-shirt who helped

:04:25.:04:27.

the Labour leader to Right, five past five

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in the morning, we are outside Jeremy Corbyn's house in Islington

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in north London. Surprisingly small press pack

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for the man who's destroyed Jeremy!

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Jeremy! If there is a message from

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tonight's result, it's this - the Prime Minister called

:04:44.:04:49.

the election because Well, the mandate she's got is lost

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Conservative seats, lost votes, I would have thought that's enough

:04:53.:04:59.

to go actually and make way for a government that will be truly

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representative of all Theresa May did the opposite,

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popping to the palace, What the country needs more

:05:10.:05:16.

than ever is certainty, and having secured the largest

:05:17.:05:24.

number of votes and the greatest number of seats in the general

:05:25.:05:27.

election, it is clear that only the Conservatives and Unionist Party

:05:28.:05:32.

have the legitimacy and ability to provide that certainty

:05:33.:05:36.

by commanding a majority As we do, we will continue to work

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with our friends and allies, in the Democratic Unionist Party

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in particular. 15 hours after election night

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started, it's all over. And joined by Tom Newton Dunn, Julia

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Hartley-Brewer and Steve Richards. Julia, why did it go so wrong for

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the Conservatives? You can't run a presidential campaign if you have a

:06:31.:06:33.

candidate with less than the charisma of this desk. If you're not

:06:34.:06:37.

going to put her out to debate, if she's not coming to the people and

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selling herself, which she studiously didn't do, you can't run

:06:41.:06:45.

that campaign. There was the possibility another leader could

:06:46.:06:48.

have walked that with 800 majority against Jeremy Corbyn. Another

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campaign, we will never know, could have delivered a majority of 30 or

:06:53.:06:59.

40, without the deal with the DUP. I'm not saying it was fundamentally

:07:00.:07:07.

wrong to call the election at this time, but it was the wrong candidate

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and the wrong campaign. The third election in a row that Labour has

:07:13.:07:17.

failed to win. It was still a substantial and historic achievement

:07:18.:07:21.

for Jeremy Corbyn. If you consider the context in which this election

:07:22.:07:26.

was called, Theresa May, on her honeymoon to die for, politically,

:07:27.:07:30.

with Labour voters split over Brexit, suddenly calling an election

:07:31.:07:36.

when most Labour MPs were not willing to cooperate with whatever

:07:37.:07:39.

campaign was being held by Labour, for them to do as well as they have

:07:40.:07:43.

done is an extraordinary achievement. They got no more seats

:07:44.:07:47.

than Gordon Brown in 2010, roughly the same. But the context couldn't

:07:48.:07:52.

have been more daunting, and to wipe out a majority of this figure, who

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six weeks ago was walking on water and appeared to have Brexit as part

:07:57.:08:03.

of her ammunition against the split Labour vote, remains astonishing.

:08:04.:08:05.

One of the errors she made and so many others she made and probably

:08:06.:08:16.

all of us, was to underestimate the potency of Corbyn and the relatively

:08:17.:08:20.

modest social Democrat manifesto. Doesn't it take stupidity bordering

:08:21.:08:24.

on genius to turn a 20 point lead at the start of the campaign into a

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hung parliament? It does and it did. That's what happened. I think the

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lead was soft, largely because Theresa May was unknown. We know her

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because we have been having lunch and interviews with her for years on

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end. The public didn't know her. They got to know her and they

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discovered she was the Maybot, which is the term that will stick after

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this campaign. I differ from my two colleagues here, it wasn't the

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amazing right of Corbyn, it was a complete failure to remember that

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people wanted a revolution when they voted for Brexit, and she came

:09:02.:09:04.

across as the party and candidate of continuity. As things stand, we are

:09:05.:09:12.

where we are. Where are we?! Where do we go from here? I was with

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College Green with you in the early hours of Friday morning and I didn't

:09:18.:09:21.

see anybody that said, see you back here in October. A second election?

:09:22.:09:27.

God forbid, nobody wants a second election, but I can't see the Tories

:09:28.:09:32.

being able to stay in power with the DUP and I'm personally very unhappy

:09:33.:09:37.

with a lot of DUP policies, their stance on gay rights, capital

:09:38.:09:40.

punishment, abortion rights, and there will be an awful lot of

:09:41.:09:43.

people, floating voters, who will recoil in horror at that, even on

:09:44.:09:50.

unofficial lines. I get the sense Jeremy Corbyn will be up for a

:09:51.:09:54.

second election, as quick as it comes. I'm sure he is, and if there

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was one company might well win it, which is why there won't be. All

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logic points to another election but I don't think there will be one,

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because I don't think any Conservative Prime Minister will

:10:06.:10:10.

feel strong and confident enough after the trauma of this. They would

:10:11.:10:14.

have to be 50 points ahead in the polls to take the risk. I think

:10:15.:10:19.

rather like between 74 and 79 we will have a frail and fragile House

:10:20.:10:22.

of Commons with a minority government for quite a long time,

:10:23.:10:26.

simply because whoever is Prime Minister will not have the

:10:27.:10:30.

confidence to call an election. So the Tories fear of a quick second

:10:31.:10:34.

election could well result in them going more leniently on Mrs May than

:10:35.:10:38.

they really want to. We have seen already, Miss Mrs May is still Prime

:10:39.:10:45.

Minister. That wouldn't have happened by now if they thought they

:10:46.:10:50.

could win a second snap election. I think they will stabilise. They are

:10:51.:10:55.

also desperate to get Brexit negotiations underway. That's

:10:56.:10:57.

another reason she is still there. She is the one who needs to pull the

:10:58.:11:01.

trigger. Most of the Tory party are aching to have the trigger pulled.

:11:02.:11:06.

When that is bold, when I have stabilised, and when Jeremy Corbyn

:11:07.:11:09.

is back the House of Commons, where remember he's not very good, I think

:11:10.:11:15.

they might your right. Lots more to talk about. Thank you for being with

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me in the open air, the Westminster penthouse, open to the world. I just

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need to find the cocktail bar. Although it is early.

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So, let's take a look at the election results

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Here's how the parties fared in the election on Thursday.

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And here's how they got on in the previous general

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As you can see, the Labour vote is up dramatically, by ten points.

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But the Conservative vote also rose quite significantly, by five points.

:11:39.:11:41.

The SNP and the Liberal Democrats both saw declines in their support.

:11:42.:11:44.

And Ukip's vote has almost completely collapsed,

:11:45.:11:45.

from 13% in 2015 to just 2% this time around.

:11:46.:11:48.

So the resurgence of two-party politics is one of the key

:11:49.:11:57.

The combined vote share of the two main parties is now 82%,

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the highest it's been since the election in 1970.

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And it's more if you exclude Northern Ireland.

:12:12.:12:16.

That's partly explained by the collapse of Ukip.

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According to one estimate, the Conservatives may have got 57%

:12:19.:12:22.

It's also thought that last year's EU referendum has helped to polarise

:12:23.:12:29.

support along the traditional Labour and Conservative lines.

:12:30.:12:32.

In polls carried out before the election,

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it was estimated that 50% of remain voters supported Labour and nearly

:12:36.:12:40.

two-thirds of leave voters supported the Conservatives.

:12:41.:12:43.

There's also speculation that a rise in the number of young voters may be

:12:44.:12:48.

behind the boost in Labour's support - but we don't yet have

:12:49.:12:51.

But it's notable that Labour did well in certain constituencies

:12:52.:13:01.

For example, it's thought that the large number of students

:13:02.:13:04.

in Canterbury helped Labour win the seat for the first time

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ever, with a 9% swing from the Conservatives.

:13:10.:13:13.

The two main parties have also seen changes in their number of seats.

:13:14.:13:17.

Labour lost six seats but gained 36, giving them a net gain of 30 seats.

:13:18.:13:21.

Most of those Labour gains were in England,

:13:22.:13:25.

where the party took 27 seats, mainly from the Conservatives.

:13:26.:13:28.

They also gained three seats in Wales and six

:13:29.:13:30.

As for the Conservatives, they lost a total of 33

:13:31.:13:38.

seats but also gained 20, giving them a net loss of 13 seats.

:13:39.:13:42.

Most of those 20 Conservative gains came in Scotland,

:13:43.:13:48.

where the party took 12 seats from the SNP.

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Meaning the Scottish Tories are allowing Mrs May to try to form a

:13:55.:13:59.

government this week! Who would have thought!

:14:00.:14:01.

In England, the Conservatives won

:14:02.:14:02.

Joining me now from Glasgow is the brains behind Thursday

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night's astoundingly accurate exit poll, the polling expert

:14:07.:14:08.

And John, the Tories saw a 5-point rise in the share of the votes to

:14:09.:14:26.

42%, very high by recent historical standards, but still lost over a

:14:27.:14:33.

dozen seats, why? Under our first past the post electoral system, the

:14:34.:14:37.

share of the vote you get is almost irrelevant. What is crucial is how

:14:38.:14:43.

you do relative to your opponents. In particular so far as Conservative

:14:44.:14:47.

and Labour are concerned, what determines the fate is the gap

:14:48.:14:55.

between them. In the 2015 election, the Conservatives had a 7-point

:14:56.:14:59.

lead, that only got them a majority of 12, and somebody should have said

:15:00.:15:04.

to the Prime Minister before she pulled the trigger, you do realise

:15:05.:15:07.

you have to be a long way ahead of the Labour Party in order to

:15:08.:15:11.

increase your majority. The opinion polls say you are at that point now

:15:12.:15:16.

but if they fall you are in trouble. In the end of the Conservative lead

:15:17.:15:23.

is 2.5 points, which is not enough to secure a majority given that

:15:24.:15:28.

Northern Ireland is out of the frame, Scotland still has a majority

:15:29.:15:33.

of third party MPs, and there are still Liberal Democrats and greens.

:15:34.:15:41.

This now looks like a two party race once again. We have still got much

:15:42.:15:49.

more in the House of Commons than in 1970 which makes a hung parliament

:15:50.:15:54.

much more likely. Meanwhile there weren't that many marginal seats. It

:15:55.:15:59.

is the relative standing of the parties that's crucial. And how do

:16:00.:16:05.

we explain the 10% rise in Labour's share of the vote? There's a lot of

:16:06.:16:11.

anecdotal evidence of a youth Surge, and I'd like to know if we can nail

:16:12.:16:17.

that down, but also the work of the swings too. Some green voters moved

:16:18.:16:23.

into Labour, some Liberal Democrats, even perhaps some Ukip voters moved

:16:24.:16:29.

into Labour, what do we know? I think we can pick up three crucial

:16:30.:16:33.

patterns. The first is a lot of people who at the beginning of the

:16:34.:16:38.

campaign said are usually vote Labour but cannot imagine doing so

:16:39.:16:43.

under Jeremy Corbyn, he so hopeless. Because of his relatively strong

:16:44.:16:46.

performance they came back into the fold so by the time we got to

:16:47.:16:54.

polling day there was many 2015 voters who said they would vote

:16:55.:16:59.

Labour again. That was the crucial point, getting the faithful back on

:17:00.:17:03.

board. It is certainly clear there was a substantial swing to young

:17:04.:17:09.

voters during the campaign. Labour started off well in that group, the

:17:10.:17:14.

opinion polls had it around 65% by the time the election came. We don't

:17:15.:17:19.

know exactly the turnout amongst young people, but certainly the

:17:20.:17:24.

pattern of the results suggests the turnout was going up more in places

:17:25.:17:28.

where there were young people so probably somewhat more of them did

:17:29.:17:32.

turn out to vote. The third crucial patent is that this was an election

:17:33.:17:37.

which to some degree voters did polarise around the issue of the

:17:38.:17:43.

shape of Brexit, weather you are a Remain or Leave voter. Labour's

:17:44.:17:55.

progress during the campaign was disproportionately amongst Remain

:17:56.:17:58.

voters so although the parties were not thought to be that far apart on

:17:59.:18:04.

the shape of Brexit, they seem to be sufficiently far apart that Labour

:18:05.:18:07.

was more attractive for those less keen on the kind of Brexit Theresa

:18:08.:18:15.

May had in mind. John Curtice, thank you as always. We are now going to

:18:16.:18:25.

Salford. Graham Brady, you think Mrs May should soldier on, why? There's

:18:26.:18:33.

no other party in a position to form a government. Clearly these aren't

:18:34.:18:41.

the circumstances that either the Prime Minister nor I nor my

:18:42.:18:44.

colleagues would want to be dealing with at the moment but this is what

:18:45.:18:47.

we are presented with and it's our duty to make the best of it and try

:18:48.:18:54.

to offer government as resilient as it can be an quite difficult times.

:18:55.:18:59.

But is she ever going to be more than a caretaker leader now? I think

:19:00.:19:03.

one of the odd things about the experience of the last 12 months is

:19:04.:19:08.

Theresa May performed well as Prime Minister and the public rather liked

:19:09.:19:12.

her as Prime Minister. I think few people would say the campaign

:19:13.:19:15.

succeeded in projecting her qualities as strongly as it could

:19:16.:19:21.

to government, albeit in difficult to government, albeit in difficult

:19:22.:19:25.

circumstances and dependent on support from other parties, I think

:19:26.:19:30.

we will see people once again seeing the steady, calm, thoughtful Theresa

:19:31.:19:36.

May as Prime Minister. Do you fear a leadership election might lead to a

:19:37.:19:41.

second general election, and that prospect terrifies you, doesn't it?

:19:42.:19:46.

I'm not sitting here terrified, but I think there is zero appetite

:19:47.:19:51.

amongst the public for another general election at the moment, and

:19:52.:19:55.

I don't detect any great appetite amongst my colleagues for presenting

:19:56.:20:00.

the public with a massive additional dose of uncertainty by getting

:20:01.:20:05.

involved in a rather self-indulgent Conservative Party internal election

:20:06.:20:09.

campaign. That's because they are frightened they might lose, that's

:20:10.:20:16.

why they don't want another one. I think most of us are motivated by a

:20:17.:20:21.

belief in the national interest and we are responsible people who want

:20:22.:20:25.

to try to offer that responsible, steady government, especially at

:20:26.:20:28.

this point as we know it's just a matter of days until those important

:20:29.:20:33.

negotiations on leaving the European Union begins. It's a time when we

:20:34.:20:37.

need experience and responsible people in Government, and I think

:20:38.:20:43.

it's our duty to try to offer that. Many Tories have said to me that Mrs

:20:44.:20:47.

May must never be allowed to leave your party into another general

:20:48.:20:51.

election, do you agree with that? No, these are judgments that will be

:20:52.:20:55.

made in the fullness of time by the Prime Minister and by colleagues, as

:20:56.:21:00.

is always the case with any Prime Minister and leader of the party,

:21:01.:21:04.

but at the moment we are resolutely focused on trying to make sure the

:21:05.:21:07.

country can have the responsible study government that it really

:21:08.:21:12.

needs at this point, and that should be our focus too. In what way should

:21:13.:21:22.

Mrs May change? I think there are all sorts of lessons we can pick up

:21:23.:21:26.

from the campaign and the reaction to it, even from the thing that

:21:27.:21:31.

surprised most of us, the way in which Jeremy Corbyn, in spite of all

:21:32.:21:36.

of his manifest failings, in particular his extreme political

:21:37.:21:41.

views, was able to present himself in a rather avuncular way. I didn't

:21:42.:21:48.

ask about Mr Corbyn. I'm saying I think there are some lessons there,

:21:49.:21:53.

in terms of relaxing little bit into communicating with the electorate.

:21:54.:21:56.

It is something she does very well in person, increasingly so since she

:21:57.:22:04.

became Prime Minister. That's not the experience of the campaign, the

:22:05.:22:08.

more people saw her the more they didn't like the colour of her gym.

:22:09.:22:14.

It didn't communicating the campaign, but also I think we need

:22:15.:22:18.

to see a much more open and inclusive approach within

:22:19.:22:22.

government, within Parliament as well. That's not just a kind of

:22:23.:22:28.

desirable outcome, which I think always would have been desirable and

:22:29.:22:34.

I've had this conversation with previous prime ministers as well.

:22:35.:22:38.

It's a necessity in the circumstances, trying to make a hung

:22:39.:22:43.

parliament and minority government work really requires a much more

:22:44.:22:48.

inclusive approach. You are being brought into the decision taking

:22:49.:22:53.

process on the deal being done with the DUP? I have said to the Prime

:22:54.:22:58.

Minister I think it is important she speaks to colleagues as soon as

:22:59.:23:03.

possible. I'm hoping to bring it forward to tomorrow so she can

:23:04.:23:11.

talk... But are you being involved in this more inclusive process? I am

:23:12.:23:16.

not on a negotiating team but I saw the Prime Minister very early after

:23:17.:23:20.

the election had taken place, I went to London on Friday afternoon and

:23:21.:23:24.

met with her and we had a discussion about all sorts of things that need

:23:25.:23:29.

to be addressed over the coming days and weeks. When Mrs May spoke in

:23:30.:23:33.

Downing Street after she'd gone to see the Queen, it was another

:23:34.:23:38.

robotic performance. It didn't even express any regrets for the Tories

:23:39.:23:44.

that had lost. You had to into being to get her to make a second

:23:45.:23:48.

statement, didn't you? No, she was already going to give the interview

:23:49.:23:55.

she gave. You urged her to do so. She was already scheduled to give

:23:56.:23:59.

the interview. I happen to see her in between the statement and

:24:00.:24:03.

interview, and I was keen to press home that in the past Conservative

:24:04.:24:08.

Party that has been very poor in its communications with colleagues who

:24:09.:24:11.

have lost their seats in the general election, that is something none of

:24:12.:24:16.

my colleagues likes to see so I certainly did say that I think it's

:24:17.:24:20.

important we do better this time. What bits of the manifesto will you

:24:21.:24:29.

now have to jumk for the Queen 's speech? That will be an interesting

:24:30.:24:33.

process to witness. I don't think it will just be the Queen 's speech, it

:24:34.:24:40.

will be the whole experience of government. There's no point in

:24:41.:24:44.

sailing ahead with items that were in the manifesto which we won't get

:24:45.:24:51.

through Parliament so I think we will have to work very carefully. No

:24:52.:24:58.

doubt we will slim down the Queen's speech. So tell me, which bits will

:24:59.:25:06.

you have to junk? Back to the triple lock on pensioners and no grammar

:25:07.:25:12.

schools? How about that? I would be upset if we couldn't make any

:25:13.:25:15.

progress on allowing people to have a choice of grammar schools if they

:25:16.:25:23.

wanted. Are you hoping they will drop it? If we cannot get things

:25:24.:25:28.

through Parliament, we cannot do them so I certainly would suggest

:25:29.:25:32.

that we can look for instance at a rather modest sort of pilots,

:25:33.:25:36.

opening some state grammar schools in inner urban areas, especially

:25:37.:25:41.

where education at the moment is not offering great opportunities to

:25:42.:25:44.

people of lower income backgrounds. I think that is something that could

:25:45.:25:51.

command quite broad support. I have heard from friends on the Labour

:25:52.:25:54.

ventures quietly that they would like that approach to be taken. We

:25:55.:25:59.

will certainly have to trim our policies carefully according to what

:26:00.:26:04.

we think Parliament will support. Graham Brady in Salford, thank you.

:26:05.:26:11.

Let's go to Nottingham where I am joined by Anna Soubry. In the early

:26:12.:26:15.

hours of Thursday morning you called on Theresa May to consider her

:26:16.:26:21.

position. Is that still your view? Yes, she obviously has considered

:26:22.:26:26.

her position and she is set to go in due course, but I very much agree

:26:27.:26:31.

with Graham, we don't want her to go now. We want a period of stability

:26:32.:26:36.

and she has got to reach out and form a consensus and she has got to

:26:37.:26:40.

form a consensus in particular on Brexit. She has now got to make sure

:26:41.:26:46.

she understands that the British people have rejected a hard Brexit.

:26:47.:26:51.

We are leaving the EU, I don't think there's any change there but we are

:26:52.:26:55.

not going to be leaving the EU in some irresponsible weights that will

:26:56.:26:59.

damage future generations in our country and there's a big lesson to

:27:00.:27:02.

be learned as you've already identified in your programme, about

:27:03.:27:07.

younger people and the message they have sent out in this election. I

:27:08.:27:11.

will come onto Brexit in the moment, but you have said she is set to go

:27:12.:27:16.

in due course, what does that mean? I don't know. After the summer,

:27:17.:27:24.

before the end of the year? I would have thought so. She is flawed,

:27:25.:27:32.

she's in a desperate situation. Her position is untenable and I think

:27:33.:27:36.

she knows that and she is doing the right thing, which is she's got rid

:27:37.:27:41.

of these special advisers, she's brought in Gavin Barwell, and she's

:27:42.:27:44.

listening to people from all parts of not just the party but the

:27:45.:27:48.

country. She has got to reach out more and broaden the base within her

:27:49.:27:53.

Cabinet, and she's got to include people from all parts of my party as

:27:54.:27:58.

well as all points of view across Parliament. So what impact in your

:27:59.:28:04.

view will, as you describe it, Mrs May's much more weakened position,

:28:05.:28:10.

what impact will that have on her current Brexit stance? Will she have

:28:11.:28:16.

to change it and water it down? Yes, absolutely. The country did not vote

:28:17.:28:22.

for a hard Brexit. This is based on my experience of having knocked on

:28:23.:28:26.

the literally thousands of dollars, actually since February. I have

:28:27.:28:31.

listened to a lot of people, and the idea of a hard Brexit, people didn't

:28:32.:28:40.

like that. It's one of the reasons we haven't won this election. They

:28:41.:28:44.

accept we are leaving, I accept it, but we want to get the best deal and

:28:45.:28:48.

she must not turn her back on British business as I'm afraid she

:28:49.:28:54.

has. She's got to listen to British business and Philip Hammond, she's

:28:55.:28:58.

got to listen to Greg Clark. Wise owls who know what British business

:28:59.:29:02.

once and they want that single market and they also wanted proper

:29:03.:29:07.

immigration policy that recognises we need immigrants and free movement

:29:08.:29:11.

in order for British business to continue to flourish.

:29:12.:29:16.

She has to at least listen to these things, and she hasn't in the past.

:29:17.:29:24.

Is that what Ruth Davidson, leader of the Scottish Conservatives, about

:29:25.:29:28.

the only Conservative to emerge with credit on Thursday, is that what she

:29:29.:29:34.

means? We should remain members of the single market, remain in the

:29:35.:29:38.

customs union and put the economy before immigration. Is that what you

:29:39.:29:42.

are talking about? Absolutely. And I always have. And in my literature I

:29:43.:29:47.

made it very clear I would continue to make the case for the single

:29:48.:29:51.

market and positive benefits of immigration. Although my majority

:29:52.:29:57.

was reduced, I put on 1800 more votes. It's not about me, obviously,

:29:58.:30:02.

it's about me being a Conservative, but I made my position clear and I

:30:03.:30:06.

have not faulted on that. Turning our back on the customs union in

:30:07.:30:10.

particular is the stuff of madness. The single market sees off the

:30:11.:30:15.

Nationalists and their desire for a second referendum, although the

:30:16.:30:18.

mighty Ruth Davidson is already done that with her remarkable result in

:30:19.:30:22.

Scotland, but it would also solve the problem with Ireland. Don't you

:30:23.:30:27.

risk reopening all those Tory divisions over Europe on this? I

:30:28.:30:33.

haven't. You have held these views for a long time. There are 20 of

:30:34.:30:38.

other, probably more Tories, who want what you call a hard Brexit. --

:30:39.:30:45.

plenty of other. It's what the people want. But you don't have a

:30:46.:30:50.

majority. At this election the people have spoken and they have

:30:51.:30:53.

rejected the hard Brexit. I think we can all agree on that. That doesn't

:30:54.:30:58.

mean to say we are not leaving the EU, we will leave the EU, and I

:30:59.:31:03.

believe even people who voted to remain accept we are leaving. I

:31:04.:31:08.

found very few angry Remainers on the doorsteps. People accept the

:31:09.:31:14.

result, but they do not want a hard Brexit. That's the message coming

:31:15.:31:18.

out from this and I hope Theresa May gets that. If she does, then she has

:31:19.:31:23.

to build the con census. There's nothing to stop her working with

:31:24.:31:29.

sensible people in the Labour Party, who also accept the referendum

:31:30.:31:33.

result, no we will be leaving the EU, and know we have to get the best

:31:34.:31:37.

deal, and we can't close our minds on the single market and Customs

:31:38.:31:42.

union. What are the bits of the Tory manifesto you will now have to drop

:31:43.:31:46.

to keep your new bedfellows happy in the DUP? I don't think we have

:31:47.:31:50.

reached a deal yet with the DUP. But that is the aim. Apparently it's the

:31:51.:31:56.

aim. I will tell you now, Andrew, you probably know far more than I

:31:57.:32:02.

do. I get on well with a number of members of the DUP. I don't like a

:32:03.:32:09.

lot of their policies on abortion, gay and lesbian issues, I completely

:32:10.:32:13.

disagree with them, but if we can put those issues aside and put the

:32:14.:32:18.

focus on making a stable government and putting the national interest

:32:19.:32:25.

first, we might well make strides forward. Many people have been

:32:26.:32:32.

talking about public services and public sector pay, but we have to do

:32:33.:32:38.

recognise that at the same time we are going into choppy economic

:32:39.:32:42.

waters, and that's why I think it's so important Theresa May listens to

:32:43.:32:47.

Philip Hammond and puts him much more at the core and front of this

:32:48.:32:51.

government. It's the economy that matters more than anything else.

:32:52.:32:54.

That's one of the spectacular failings of the campaign. The issue

:32:55.:32:59.

that was hardly mentioned during the campaign. Never mentioned it. Anna

:33:00.:33:04.

Soubry, we will leave it there. After Theresa May had been to see

:33:05.:33:08.

the Queen at Buckingham Palace on Friday she made a brief statement on

:33:09.:33:11.

Friday. We can remind ourselves what she said.

:33:12.:33:15.

We will continue to work with our friends and allies,

:33:16.:33:17.

in the Democratic Unionist Party in particular.

:33:18.:33:19.

Our two parties have enjoyed a strong relationship over many

:33:20.:33:22.

years, and this gives me the confidence to believe

:33:23.:33:24.

that we will be able to work together in the interests

:33:25.:33:26.

This will allow us to come together as a country

:33:27.:33:30.

and channel our energies towards a successful

:33:31.:33:35.

Brexit deal that works for everyone in this country.

:33:36.:33:39.

Securing a new partnership with the EU that guarantees our

:33:40.:33:43.

That's what people voted for last June, that's what we will deliver.

:33:44.:33:48.

I've been joined by the Conservative MP Dominic Raab -

:33:49.:34:03.

a former government minister who's been tipped for a return in Theresa

:34:04.:34:05.

We shall see. Welcome to the programme. Her two most senior

:34:06.:34:14.

advisers have fallen on their swords. Most of the Cabinet has gone

:34:15.:34:19.

to ground since the result. Could Theresa May be any more isolated? I

:34:20.:34:24.

don't think that's true. You have three Cabinet ministers doing

:34:25.:34:26.

television this morning. We are in the middle of a reshuffle, so you

:34:27.:34:30.

wouldn't expect them all to be out on the airwaves, and we also in the

:34:31.:34:33.

business of hammering out the detail on the supply and confidence

:34:34.:34:38.

arrangement with the DUP. Where are we on that? On the question of Chief

:34:39.:34:43.

of staff, a new appointment has been made, Gavin Barwell, I know him

:34:44.:34:48.

well, a smart policy guide and also very sensitive on the political

:34:49.:34:51.

radar and that shows we are moving forward. It was forced on her. I

:34:52.:34:57.

think they did the honourable thing. The two aids that fell on their

:34:58.:35:04.

sword? Yes. The key point is, looking forward, which we have to

:35:05.:35:08.

do, we had the outcome of the election and the people have spoken

:35:09.:35:11.

and we have to make the best of it. Gavin Barwell is an important

:35:12.:35:18.

appointment. Conservative MPs across-the-board know, respect and

:35:19.:35:21.

trust him. Nobody in the country has heard of him, but maybe that doesn't

:35:22.:35:25.

matter. How many had heard of Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill before they

:35:26.:35:30.

were appointed? They do now. Do you agree with Anna Soubry that Theresa

:35:31.:35:34.

May is no more than a caretaker Prime Minister now? I don't.

:35:35.:35:40.

Emotions are way up. But we still won the most votes and most seats.

:35:41.:35:45.

My reading from talking to MPs across-the-board is the overwhelming

:35:46.:35:50.

majority want to see Theresa May continue in office. As a matter of

:35:51.:35:53.

necessity, the people have spoken, and we have to respect what the

:35:54.:35:57.

people have decided, so we will do this supply and confidence

:35:58.:36:01.

arrangement with the DUP. There are strong areas of overlap but we don't

:36:02.:36:04.

agree on everything. The key thing is to give the country certainty and

:36:05.:36:07.

direction moving forward. That's the only viable option and people are

:36:08.:36:11.

rallying behind that. Not all. George Osborne said this morning on

:36:12.:36:15.

the BBC that Mrs May was a dead woman walking. He has made the

:36:16.:36:25.

transition from Conservative MP to mischievous journalist with ease.

:36:26.:36:28.

Most MPs when they listen to that will think it's disloyal,

:36:29.:36:32.

unprofessional and frankly pretty self-indulgent. In reality I think

:36:33.:36:35.

it will shore up support among a lot of MPs for Theresa May. What went

:36:36.:36:42.

wrong? I'm not going to candy coat, sugar-coat the result here. We did

:36:43.:36:45.

far worse than expected and we need to figure out the lessons to learn.

:36:46.:36:54.

I know it went wrong, but why? There isn't anyone thing. You have to take

:36:55.:36:58.

time to learn the lessons. We need to show some humility about the

:36:59.:37:01.

result. Nick Timothy has written a column that touches on some of the

:37:02.:37:05.

issues from his perspective. To be honest with you, I'm focused now, I

:37:06.:37:08.

missed all the drama and disappointment of not getting the

:37:09.:37:13.

result we wanted, focus on the facts. We got 56 more seats than the

:37:14.:37:17.

Labour Party and we are the only ones who can put together a

:37:18.:37:20.

legitimate parliament that can also be affected, passing a judgment and

:37:21.:37:22.

legitimate parliament that can also pass legislation, however tricky it

:37:23.:37:26.

may be. That remains to be seen, you might not be able to do that. We are

:37:27.:37:31.

the only ones, with the DUP, who could form a viable and effective

:37:32.:37:35.

government that would reflect legitimately the outcome of the

:37:36.:37:41.

election and we will focus 100% on that. Let's do that. Mrs May

:37:42.:37:43.

promised strength and stability. We now have a hung parliament and she

:37:44.:37:48.

is dependent on the DUP for the slimmest of majorities. There is

:37:49.:37:51.

nothing strong and stable about that. I have said to you, I will not

:37:52.:37:57.

tell you this result is the one we wanted. We are disappointed. It's

:37:58.:38:02.

not strong and stable. It can still be effective. It's also the only

:38:03.:38:06.

outcome that can respect and be legitimate of the outcome of the

:38:07.:38:10.

election. At the end of the day, we had campaigning, we can differ on

:38:11.:38:14.

the opinions, but the facts and parliamentary arithmetic is there.

:38:15.:38:16.

The only way we can have an effective government of any time

:38:17.:38:18.

that Del Paso budget is the Conservatives with the support of

:38:19.:38:22.

the DUP. To do that you'll have to make compromises you would not have

:38:23.:38:27.

to do make if you had won a substantial majority. What part of

:38:28.:38:30.

the manifesto will have to go to get a budget and a confidence motion

:38:31.:38:35.

through? 48 hours after the election I can't answer that definitively.

:38:36.:38:39.

What we do have to do, every MP, whatever part of the country they

:38:40.:38:43.

were elected, has to deliver as best can be manifesto commitments. At the

:38:44.:38:48.

same time, that's what the country expects. At the same time we had

:38:49.:38:51.

forced on us the need to be flexible. The people didn't vote for

:38:52.:38:55.

your manifesto in the end. Something has to go. The triple lock for

:38:56.:38:59.

pensioners that you were going to change, the DUP is in favour of the

:39:00.:39:03.

triple lock. Does that bit of the manifesto go? You can ask me any

:39:04.:39:09.

aspect of the manifesto, we'll know more answers the detail next week.

:39:10.:39:14.

You were on our programmes more than any Cabinet minister. You will be

:39:15.:39:19.

drafted back in. You should know. I don't bet too much money on the

:39:20.:39:25.

tittle tattle in the media. We have the outline of the supply and

:39:26.:39:28.

confidence arrangement with the DUP. We are hammering out the details.

:39:29.:39:32.

Next week we will publish the details. What about social care? You

:39:33.:39:38.

asking me about different points in a manifesto but you know I can't

:39:39.:39:42.

answer that question until... I want to deliver as much of the manifesto

:39:43.:39:46.

as possible. You don't have a mandate to do that. That's because

:39:47.:39:51.

we've got... The Queen's speech is only a week away, a week tomorrow.

:39:52.:39:59.

You are trying to work out what parts, Labour lost, but you didn't

:40:00.:40:02.

win, and I'm trying to work out how you just said we will have to

:40:03.:40:06.

comprise and make changes. It's legitimate to ask which parts... I'm

:40:07.:40:10.

explaining I don't have the answers on the detail because until we have

:40:11.:40:13.

formed the supply and confidence arrangement with the DUP, we will

:40:14.:40:18.

not have those details. My starting point is that we deliver as much of

:40:19.:40:21.

the manifesto as we conceivably can. That's what the country expects

:40:22.:40:24.

because that's what they are elected us to do. They have given us their

:40:25.:40:28.

verdict, we need to respect the outcome of the election and we will

:40:29.:40:32.

not do it in the same way will as if we had a stonking majority,

:40:33.:40:35.

obviously. The result has given a kind of new spring in the step of

:40:36.:40:41.

politicians who wanted to remain in the European Union. What do you

:40:42.:40:47.

make, and we heard Anna Soubry, and many others have said it as well,

:40:48.:40:50.

that you need to reconsider your Brexit stands, and in their language

:40:51.:40:56.

community soften your Brexit stands. Whether you are a Scottish, Welsh or

:40:57.:41:00.

English MP, elected to Parliament behind me on the basis of a

:41:01.:41:03.

manifesto that sets out in great detail, a 75 page white Paper, the

:41:04.:41:09.

approach to Brexit. All this talk of hard Brexit, our ambition is to get

:41:10.:41:13.

the best possible deal we can with our EU partners. Do you change your

:41:14.:41:18.

stands because you didn't get a majority for your Brexit position.

:41:19.:41:22.

Do you follow the advice of Ruth Davidson, who talked of an open

:41:23.:41:26.

Brexit, framing a new Brexit strategy? Hard and soft Brexit, I

:41:27.:41:31.

don't know exactly what Ruth means by that. But she did a great job in

:41:32.:41:37.

Scotland. But every MP was elected on our manifesto. We will deliver

:41:38.:41:41.

the plans of that manifesto as best we can, including and especially on

:41:42.:41:45.

Brexit. Just a point of fact, obviously be Conservative number of

:41:46.:41:51.

votes went up, Labour effectively... The vote share went up, but we lost

:41:52.:41:56.

seats, but we are 56 seats ahead of the Labour Party. The Labour Party

:41:57.:42:00.

effectively endorsed the leave the EU strategy we set out and they

:42:01.:42:04.

didn't offer a alternative. So no change on the Brexit strategy? And

:42:05.:42:11.

the anti-Brexit parties, the SNP and Lib Dem, both suffered a fall in

:42:12.:42:15.

their vote share. The country has said they want us to make a success

:42:16.:42:19.

of Brexit. So no change? The plans in the White Paper set out are the

:42:20.:42:25.

right ones and the voters expect us to deliver on the manifesto we ran

:42:26.:42:29.

on, whether you are a Scottish, English or Welsh MP. I can hear your

:42:30.:42:34.

helicopter arriving to whisk you off to the wry ministerial meeting. Let

:42:35.:42:36.

us know to the wry ministerial meeting. Let

:42:37.:42:37.

u? know what Good morning and welcome

:42:38.:42:46.

to Sunday Politics Scotland. With nine days to go before

:42:47.:42:47.

Brexit negotiations begin, I'll be asking Scottish Government

:42:48.:42:52.

minister Mike Russell how a diminished SNP presence

:42:53.:42:55.

at Westminster plans And all smiles for the Tories here,

:42:56.:42:57.

but why the reluctance Nothing is certain in life,

:42:58.:43:03.

and especially not in the life When this election was called,

:43:04.:43:18.

many commentators were confidently predicting that the Conservatives

:43:19.:43:26.

would increase their majority - Now, they're rushing to explain

:43:27.:43:28.

why they got it wrong - and why Theresa May got

:43:29.:43:32.

it VERY wrong. What do the results mean

:43:33.:43:34.

for Scotland's parties though - They have a lot to celebrate but on

:43:35.:43:42.

Friday morning there was a sombre tone. The SNP was happy about

:43:43.:43:54.

sending the most Scottish MPs to Westminster but reflecting on the

:43:55.:44:02.

loss of some big beasts. I want to pay tribute to Angus Robertson. I

:44:03.:44:06.

also want to make particular mention of Alex Salmond. Where does this

:44:07.:44:18.

leave our second independence referendum? Nicola Sturgeon said,

:44:19.:44:27.

watch this space. I will reflect on the result. Would it be wise to roll

:44:28.:44:33.

back from the Independence Lane and listen to a different message from

:44:34.:44:40.

voters? The SNP has had a track record of being a very competent

:44:41.:44:44.

government and being able to manage policy well. Part of their problem

:44:45.:44:53.

is they've been challenged on health care and education and have not been

:44:54.:44:59.

delivering with the same degree of competence that they were

:45:00.:45:06.

previously. It's very clear, the evidence shows that people support

:45:07.:45:10.

the SNP because of the way they govern, not independence. Meanwhile,

:45:11.:45:15.

the Scottish Conservatives chose the shadow of Stirling Castle to

:45:16.:45:20.

introduce their MPs. Ruth Davidson has been cast as green maker. Now,

:45:21.:45:35.

she must look on as the distinctly gay-unfriendly again to work with

:45:36.:45:42.

the Tories. I sort of categoric reassurance there would be no

:45:43.:45:47.

rollback of rights in the UK. We are the party of equal marriage. We

:45:48.:45:53.

brought it forward in England and Wales. I wanted reassurances that we

:45:54.:45:56.

would use our influence to advance those rates in Northern Ireland. The

:45:57.:46:04.

speed with which Ruth Davidson moves could signal a shift in power. The

:46:05.:46:09.

fact that came out as a public matter so quickly goes to show many

:46:10.:46:17.

conservatives will be looking to assert themselves in Westminster

:46:18.:46:25.

matters. She's already a fairly well-known figure across the UK and

:46:26.:46:33.

I think that will only increase. Rutherglen town hall and Kezia

:46:34.:46:37.

Dugdale was celebrating worth her six new MPs. But who was responsible

:46:38.:46:47.

for this? Kezia Dugdale or her maligned boss, Jeremy Corbyn?

:46:48.:46:50.

They've not always been in step and she did not want him to be leader.

:46:51.:46:56.

I've done nothing but been behind Jeremy Corbyn all through this

:46:57.:47:01.

campaign. There is a combined message of being a prounion party,

:47:02.:47:06.

talking up the benefits of the United Kingdom but also showing how

:47:07.:47:13.

we can do different. It may not be a case of Kezia Dugdale tucking into

:47:14.:47:18.

humble pie. They may have concocted a successful formula. Between the

:47:19.:47:24.

two of them they made a perfect pairing. On the question of

:47:25.:47:30.

independence, it benefited them. She was saying they will not have

:47:31.:47:33.

another, but in London he was saying, and sometimes in Scotland,

:47:34.:47:45.

the door is open. The message got over, they were looking for the

:47:46.:47:53.

final nudge. The Scottish Liberal Democrats have jumped from one MP3

:47:54.:48:06.

format. They want a second referendum on Brexit. But under

:48:07.:48:10.

Charles Kennedy they had dozens more MPs across the UK saw how much

:48:11.:48:16.

difference can they make? We've quadrupled our representation from

:48:17.:48:19.

Scotland in Westminster. We are back on track and making progress and

:48:20.:48:23.

people were very clear, they want are a positive agenda on mental

:48:24.:48:29.

health. They want to say no to another divisive independence

:48:30.:48:32.

referendum and the right to reject a bad deal on Brexit. They are the

:48:33.:48:36.

only party calling for a second referendum on the Brexit deal. I

:48:37.:48:42.

wonder why that did not play better? I don't think it played better

:48:43.:48:46.

because I think most parties have said, this is a done deal, let's

:48:47.:48:54.

make the most of it. At a time when you've got continuing political

:48:55.:48:58.

flux, we don't know where politics will be this time next week never

:48:59.:49:03.

mind next year. It is difficult for any party to say we should have

:49:04.:49:08.

another referendum in Scotland, particularly where they've not been

:49:09.:49:09.

getting a good press. Alison Rowat finishing that

:49:10.:49:14.

report by John McManus. Well, joining me from Colintraive

:49:15.:49:16.

is the man charged with looking after Scotland's Brexit

:49:17.:49:19.

negotiations, Mike Russell. Given there is now a minority

:49:20.:49:31.

government, do you see a role for the SNP at Westminster in trying to

:49:32.:49:38.

have some influence over a softer Brexit than we saw a few days ago?

:49:39.:49:46.

It is important that the entire Brexit policy is scrapped and they

:49:47.:49:50.

start again. The first part of that is to persuade Theresa May that

:49:51.:49:55.

clinging to Downing Street is not a sensible idea. She is presided over

:49:56.:50:00.

chaos over the last year. This election shows people don't trust

:50:01.:50:05.

her. I don't think her position is tenable. There needs to be a look at

:50:06.:50:09.

everything and that includes the Brexit policy. There a committee

:50:10.:50:13.

established which is not dependent on there being a Tory government. It

:50:14.:50:20.

needs to meet urgently. It has not met since February. That needs to

:50:21.:50:24.

look at the way that Brexit goes forward. First, we need some

:50:25.:50:33.

stability. People everywhere are crying out for stability and they've

:50:34.:50:39.

had nothing but chaos and instability. It is continuing this

:50:40.:50:42.

weekend with the announcement that there was a deal with the DUP and

:50:43.:50:47.

there was not ideal. This is just nonsense. You produced a detailed

:50:48.:50:54.

plan for a Scottish form of Brexit which you claim was dismissed by the

:50:55.:51:00.

previous government and David Davis in particular. Will you be

:51:01.:51:06.

contacting the new government to put that back on the table? We believe

:51:07.:51:18.

it is still on the table. It started with the premise that the whole of

:51:19.:51:23.

the UK should start in the single market. In Scotland, Ruth Davidson

:51:24.:51:29.

and her Tories voted against that on every occasion. Her manifesto was

:51:30.:51:41.

exactly the same as Theresa May. In reality, it is changed

:51:42.:51:46.

circumstances. Let's move forward. What do you plan to do as a

:51:47.:51:52.

government? That is a key political point. As a government we intend to

:51:53.:51:57.

continue to promote Scotland's place in Europe. If others wish to join us

:51:58.:52:03.

they would be very welcome. If the Tories have genuinely changed their

:52:04.:52:06.

view on Brexit, I will be very pleased that is the case. But the

:52:07.:52:12.

forum to take this forward is the joint ministerial committee. I don't

:52:13.:52:16.

think Theresa May can stay as Prime Minister. There is potential for a

:52:17.:52:21.

progressive Alliance in the House of Commons and I'm sure the SNP would

:52:22.:52:24.

like to see that but we need to sit down this week. The reality is we

:52:25.:52:30.

need to sit down this week and look at the Brexit situation and the

:52:31.:52:36.

initial documents from the European Union. We need to devise a new

:52:37.:52:43.

approach. Theresa May has tried to make all the decisions and look at

:52:44.:52:54.

the mess. Did you say in a formal way your proposals have never been

:52:55.:53:04.

rejected? We've had one paragraph in a 4-page letter from Davis Davis --

:53:05.:53:14.

David Davis but that they were not feasible. This was on the day of the

:53:15.:53:17.

Article 50 letter. There was a huge amount of work done by civil

:53:18.:53:21.

servants. The conclusion did not arise out of that work. That work

:53:22.:53:25.

was continuing. That document is still there and it starts with the

:53:26.:53:30.

easiest solution of all. If the UK stays in the single market, the

:53:31.:53:40.

negotiations change. They become negotiations about how that takes

:53:41.:53:45.

place. There is a way to do that. Those things are available and on

:53:46.:53:53.

the table and it seems to me to be a good starting point. You're still

:53:54.:54:06.

the biggest party in Scotland but you lost a lot of seats. Both John

:54:07.:54:17.

Swinney and Nicola Sturgeon accepted this. Would you drop an idea of an

:54:18.:54:28.

independence referendum any time soon? They are right to say we need

:54:29.:54:39.

to focus on this. We have lost seats and I deeply regret that. We've lost

:54:40.:54:46.

good people. There is a group of people we would like to have seen

:54:47.:54:49.

there. That requires a period of reflection. The priority is to

:54:50.:54:57.

achieve some stability because it has been utterly chaotic and has

:54:58.:55:02.

been led by Theresa May saw the first priority is to do that. We

:55:03.:55:07.

must do that this week. 60% of the electorate have voted for parties

:55:08.:55:12.

who had, on the front page of the appeal to the public, no

:55:13.:55:19.

independence referendum. You say you want stability and I'm sure a lot of

:55:20.:55:22.

the people watching will be shouting at the TV set that they want

:55:23.:55:30.

stability from you, not to have a period of reflection, stop this

:55:31.:55:41.

right now. Take it off the table. I don't think people are shouting,

:55:42.:55:48.

don't have a period of reflection. They want stability you want. We

:55:49.:55:52.

need to move forward to get that stability. Reflecting on the detail

:55:53.:55:57.

of this is important but the first thing we've got to do is sit round

:55:58.:56:02.

the table and talk about Brexit and what is going to take place. As you

:56:03.:56:07.

pointed out, the negotiations are meant to start a week tomorrow.

:56:08.:56:11.

We've got to get a position in place this week that says, this is what is

:56:12.:56:16.

going to happen. If Theresa May tries to put her position on the

:56:17.:56:20.

table she will be in deep trouble. Would you honestly trust that women

:56:21.:56:23.

to read these negotiations after what you've seen, what we've all

:56:24.:56:29.

seen over the last 12 months? Surely not. You keep going on about Theresa

:56:30.:56:37.

May. I come back to IndyRef2. A lot of people say the SNP claims to

:56:38.:56:41.

represent Scotland but now has a ten represent Scotland but now has a ten

:56:42.:56:51.

-- now is taking the Michael. You've been told in no uncertain terms what

:56:52.:56:57.

people think of your proposal. You need to say that you will take it

:56:58.:57:01.

off the table until the next Scottish elections. The First

:57:02.:57:08.

Minister has said she will reflect on that. The reality is, I'm not one

:57:09.:57:14.

of these politicians that blank things but we won 35 seats out of

:57:15.:57:19.

59. We have an overall majority of those seats. The best result was 56

:57:20.:57:26.

but before that we only had six. Hang on a second here. We won this

:57:27.:57:34.

election but of course we will reflect on it. The First Minister

:57:35.:57:40.

said absolutely immediately. Your policy was to overturn the results

:57:41.:57:44.

of a referendum with an extremely high turnout. You say you won the

:57:45.:57:54.

majority of the seats. You did that in a system which skews the result,

:57:55.:58:00.

is unfair and unjust according to SNP policy. If you ran an election

:58:01.:58:06.

on the basis you support, you would have 37% of the seats.

:58:07.:58:14.

We are now into hypotheses built on hypothesis. The proposal for the

:58:15.:58:21.

referendum was based on one set of circumstances only in the election

:58:22.:58:26.

we won in 2016, and that was if Scotland was to be dragged out of

:58:27.:58:30.

Europe against its will, that would be the circumstances. That is

:58:31.:58:34.

exactly the circumstances we find ourselves in. Now we go forward and

:58:35.:58:39.

say, what is going to happen with Brexit? To some extent everything is

:58:40.:58:43.

off the table in the sense that Brexit has to start to be sorted

:58:44.:58:48.

this week. That is the urgent priority. There is a way to do it,

:58:49.:58:54.

which is to get the J MC meeting. But you have a problem with

:58:55.:58:59.

credibility even on that. Everyone knows the more there is a move

:59:00.:59:04.

towards a soft Brexit, the more it undermines your case for another

:59:05.:59:08.

independence referendum, so you are caught in a contradiction. If you

:59:09.:59:12.

get your way on Brexit, no indyref2. It might even seem better if there

:59:13.:59:18.

was a hard Brexit. The Scottish government brought to the table in

:59:19.:59:22.

December the most comprehensive plan of how to move forward with a

:59:23.:59:26.

compromise. I have not spent the last six months

:59:27.:59:41.

trying to make that work with people who simply were not listening to it

:59:42.:59:45.

to abandon it. That document is still there and it contains

:59:46.:59:47.

compromise proposals. It starts with the UK staying in the single market

:59:48.:59:50.

and that is a very good step forward. The Scottish government is

:59:51.:59:52.

committed to that still. I am sure there is a seaplane behind you ready

:59:53.:59:55.

to whisk you back home. Thank you very much indeed.

:59:56.:59:56.

Now in case you're wondering, we did try to get a Scottish

:59:57.:00:01.

Tory on the programme, but despite their remarkable

:00:02.:00:03.

election performance here, we were unable to find

:00:04.:00:04.

a Conservative politician willing to come on the programme.

:00:05.:00:07.

Well Labour's performance also improved on Thursday and they're

:00:08.:00:09.

being slightly less reticent so I'm joined by Scottish Labour's election

:00:10.:00:11.

First of all, on indyref2, is what Mike Russell said acceptable? It is

:00:12.:00:28.

clear the SNP have not listened to the result of the election on

:00:29.:00:33.

Thursday. Look at what happened. They are down nearly 500,000 votes

:00:34.:00:39.

from 2015 and the reason for that is that people are fed up with the SNP,

:00:40.:00:45.

not only obsessing about indyref2, but failing to tackle the issues

:00:46.:00:49.

they are responsible for in Scotland. What do you think they

:00:50.:00:54.

should do on that issue? They need to make it absolutely clear that

:00:55.:00:59.

indyref2 is off the table, but more importantly they need to take

:01:00.:01:03.

responsibility for the issues that matter in Scotland. For example,

:01:04.:01:10.

child poverty has gone up 40,000 to 260,000, and the SNP approach for

:01:11.:01:16.

that. I think we know Labour wants them to concentrate on domestic

:01:17.:01:19.

issues, but I want to put this to you. I know we have a pre-recorded

:01:20.:01:26.

interview with Christine Jardin of the Liberal Democrats and she says

:01:27.:01:30.

what they want is for the SNP to bring forward legislation to the

:01:31.:01:33.

Scottish Parliament, in effect cancelling the vote for indyref2 and

:01:34.:01:40.

to take it off the table until at least the next Scottish elections in

:01:41.:01:45.

2021. Is that something you would support? I have seen that Liberal

:01:46.:01:48.

Democrat proposal, it is interesting. If I vote comes to the

:01:49.:01:54.

Parliament, we will obviously oppose indyref2. But the clear thing that

:01:55.:02:02.

the SNP need to start doing is getting responsible. Last year in

:02:03.:02:09.

the budget they underspent the housing budget by ?20 million and

:02:10.:02:13.

there are homeless people dying on our streets and they do not seem

:02:14.:02:19.

able to tackle that. It went under the radar but you said yesterday,

:02:20.:02:23.

and please tell me if I misinterpret you, you said it was important that

:02:24.:02:28.

the new and unexpectedly large Scottish Labour group in Parliament

:02:29.:02:33.

was represented in Jeremy Corbyn's Parliament and that at the very

:02:34.:02:38.

least there had to be a Secretary of State for Scotland or a shadow

:02:39.:02:41.

Secretary of State for Scotland who was a Scottish MP. Am I interpreting

:02:42.:02:47.

what you said correctly? We return to Westminster next week and we are

:02:48.:02:51.

a group of seven MPs who will play an active role in Jeremy Corbyn's

:02:52.:02:55.

team and at the forefront of that there needs to be a leap person

:02:56.:02:58.

speaking for Scotland in the shadow cabinet. And that has to be a

:02:59.:03:09.

Scottish MP? Yes. Presumably if asked, perhaps some of the Scottish

:03:10.:03:13.

MPs in Parliament could play a role in Parliament other than that one

:03:14.:03:19.

post, but there could be more? We are delighted with the team we are

:03:20.:03:23.

sending down there. There is some real depth and experience and we

:03:24.:03:28.

think we can contribute in the Parliament, but also contribute as

:03:29.:03:33.

part of the Labour team, as part of Jeremy Corbyn's team in Westminster.

:03:34.:03:37.

I am not sure that you would necessarily agree with what you

:03:38.:03:43.

would say with what Alison was saying and the mixed messages

:03:44.:03:48.

between Kezia Dugdale and Jeremy Corbyn in Scotland. He was a bit

:03:49.:03:52.

more ambiguous. Is that something you would want to have talks about

:03:53.:03:55.

and make sure there was one line coming out? Jeremy Corbyn made clear

:03:56.:04:02.

during the campaign that the prospect of Independence would mean

:04:03.:04:08.

turbo-charged austerity. He said he would talk to the Scottish

:04:09.:04:11.

government about it and you do not want him to do that? We need to

:04:12.:04:19.

tackle the budget of 15 million. The prospect of indyref2 takes us away

:04:20.:04:22.

from the real issues and the prospect of independence would be a

:04:23.:04:26.

disaster for Scotland and Jeremy Corbyn understands that. RUC Labour

:04:27.:04:31.

policy now, whether in Westminster or Holyrood, is no second

:04:32.:04:38.

independence referendum until there is at least some sign in another

:04:39.:04:41.

election there has been a mass support from the Scottish people?

:04:42.:04:48.

You can see the SNP are starting to roll back from a second independence

:04:49.:04:52.

referendum, so I do not see them bringing back forward any time soon.

:04:53.:04:57.

They have acknowledged it cost them hundreds of thousands of votes on

:04:58.:05:00.

Thursday and they need to reflect on that and get back to the issues that

:05:01.:05:06.

matter. Is there a lesson for the Scottish Labour Party in what Jeremy

:05:07.:05:10.

Corbyn did against everyone's expectations? First of all the mass

:05:11.:05:14.

membership Labour have achieved in England. I know you have more

:05:15.:05:21.

members here, but nothing like what he has managed to achieve. Also the

:05:22.:05:24.

different way he went about campaigning. Will you be sitting

:05:25.:05:26.

down and learning the lessons and trying to replicate in Scotland some

:05:27.:05:33.

of the things he did in England? We will look closely at this going for

:05:34.:05:38.

it. Six of the seats in Scotland had majorities of less than 400. Six of

:05:39.:05:50.

you or a Labour sees? Exceeds of SNP majorities of less than 400, so

:05:51.:05:53.

there is a chance of us moving forward to take those seeds and

:05:54.:05:57.

others. But you will be looking to see what they were doing in South

:05:58.:06:03.

and replicating it up here? The lesson of the election is talking

:06:04.:06:09.

about what matters to people. No, the lesson is mobilising young

:06:10.:06:15.

people and going to rock concerts like Jeremy Corbyn did, and you can

:06:16.:06:19.

do much better than people think you would. But ultimately you need to

:06:20.:06:25.

think about what matters to people like ?10 minimum wage. We have all

:06:26.:06:30.

heard that, we do not want to hear your manifesto again. Thank you very

:06:31.:06:32.

Well, earlier this morning I spoke with one of the Scottish Liberal

:06:33.:06:37.

Democrats' new intake at Westminster, Christine Jardine.

:06:38.:06:41.

What, in your view, does the Scottish government have to do now

:06:42.:06:46.

about another independence referendum? They have to make it

:06:47.:06:52.

clear it is off the table and they have to bring forward legislation to

:06:53.:06:55.

say they will not be another independence referendum. It was

:06:56.:07:01.

clear on the doors from day one in the general election that there is

:07:02.:07:05.

no will amongst the public, even amongst SNP supporters we spoke to.

:07:06.:07:12.

There was a reticence to go ahead with another independence

:07:13.:07:16.

referendum, perhaps for different reasons, thinking it would be a no

:07:17.:07:22.

vote again, people did not want it. You say they need to bring forward

:07:23.:07:26.

legislation to cancel the current position of the Scottish Parliament.

:07:27.:07:32.

You cannot ask the SNP to give up on independence, it is the nature of

:07:33.:07:36.

the SNP. Is it your argument they need to take it off table until the

:07:37.:07:42.

next Scottish election? We want them to make a clear statement to the

:07:43.:07:47.

people of Scotland they will not be another independence referendum in

:07:48.:07:51.

this Parliament. I am confident when we come to another Scottish election

:07:52.:07:55.

we may get another different result. But this time round it is clear.

:07:56.:08:01.

When I say a different result, the SNP may not be in a position to have

:08:02.:08:06.

a referendum after the next Scottish election, but for the time being

:08:07.:08:09.

they have to make it absolutely clear that they have listened, they

:08:10.:08:13.

have heard people are not happy with the idea of going through another

:08:14.:08:17.

divisive debate and put it to one side. And your view would be what?

:08:18.:08:23.

Saying they reflect on this might get them through the next few days,

:08:24.:08:29.

but that is not good enough? That is not good enough because we have seen

:08:30.:08:34.

so often over the past two years Nicola Sturgeon say it is off the

:08:35.:08:39.

table. The other thing that is clear from this general election result

:08:40.:08:43.

and two years ago is that two years ago people thought it was off the

:08:44.:08:47.

table and this time it was not. Nicola saying we will reflect on it

:08:48.:08:53.

will not be enough for people. They will want something that the SNP can

:08:54.:08:57.

be held to, that they can I say after another few months that the

:08:58.:09:02.

situation has changed and they will call for another independence

:09:03.:09:06.

referendum. It has to be off until the next election? Yes. Their

:09:07.:09:12.

argument is they got a majority of seats in this election and they have

:09:13.:09:17.

a triple lock. What do you make of that? They lost seats, they went

:09:18.:09:23.

down by 13%. They still have a majority. They lost seats at the

:09:24.:09:28.

Scottish election and they have a minority in the Scottish Parliament

:09:29.:09:32.

and the Green Party will be thinking people obviously are not in favour

:09:33.:09:37.

of an independence referendum. The SNP need the support of the Green

:09:38.:09:40.

Party in the Scottish Parliament if they are to have it. Your argument

:09:41.:09:47.

is 60% voted for parties which clearly do not want another

:09:48.:09:51.

independence referendum. By the same token can we look forward to in the

:09:52.:09:56.

next few days the Liberal Democrats withdrawing their demand for another

:09:57.:10:00.

referendum on Europe? The vast majority of the electorate

:10:01.:10:03.

throughout the UK have voted for parties which do not want another

:10:04.:10:09.

referendum. What we are seeing is two very different dynamics in

:10:10.:10:13.

Scotland and England. Brexit was not as much of an issue up here. By the

:10:14.:10:21.

very same argument you have made about the SNP, the Liberal Democrats

:10:22.:10:24.

need to say right now within the next few days, we withdraw our

:10:25.:10:31.

policy of having a second referendum in Europe. What we need to know is

:10:32.:10:35.

exactly now what the government policy on Brexit is. It is not clear

:10:36.:10:40.

exactly what will happen with Brexit. Hang on a second. You work

:10:41.:10:46.

telling me a minute ago we have to know what the Scottish government

:10:47.:10:51.

policy is on indyref2, you said they had to withdraw it. By the same

:10:52.:11:00.

token you need an overwhelming idea that the majority of people in Great

:11:01.:11:05.

Britain have voted for parties who do not want another referendum. You

:11:06.:11:10.

need to withdraw it right now. I made it clear, the Liberal Democrats

:11:11.:11:17.

who won, made it clear on the doorsteps that we would be

:11:18.:11:20.

campaigning to keep the UK at the heart of Europe. We were elected on

:11:21.:11:25.

that platform and we will not go back on it and we will continue to

:11:26.:11:30.

campaign and push for the best possible relationship with the

:11:31.:11:32.

European Union. I take what you are saying. Thank you very much. As an

:11:33.:11:41.

SNP MP you will continue to campaign? As the SNP, I would never

:11:42.:11:51.

hear them say they will give up on independence. I would like to hear

:11:52.:11:54.

them say that, but I accept that will never happen, but you are never

:11:55.:11:58.

hear a Liberal Democrats say they have given up on Europe.

:11:59.:11:59.

Well joining me now is Professor John Curtice.

:12:00.:12:05.

A week ago you said, my takeaway line from the polls was that Jeremy

:12:06.:12:11.

Corbyn could do as well as Tony Blair did in 2005, but you can top

:12:12.:12:19.

that takeaway line today. Yes, Jeremy Corbyn one is slightly bigger

:12:20.:12:24.

share of the vote than Tony Blair managed in 2001 as well. There is no

:12:25.:12:28.

doubt as compared to where the Labour Party started this election,

:12:29.:12:32.

which according to the opinion polls were 26%, no party had ever started

:12:33.:12:39.

an election in so bad a position. The turnaround for the Labour Party

:12:40.:12:44.

was truly remarkable. However, we need to remember that in the end the

:12:45.:12:48.

Labour Party in terms of seats they'd hardly any better than Gordon

:12:49.:12:54.

Brown did in 2010. What we can say is Jeremy Corbyn has demonstrated

:12:55.:12:59.

that you can fight and effective election campaign standing from the

:13:00.:13:03.

left, you do not have to follow the New Labour line of tracing the

:13:04.:13:07.

centre, and that does not lead to disaster. What Jeremy Corbyn now

:13:08.:13:12.

needs to demonstrate is that his strategy can actually push the

:13:13.:13:16.

parties such that it could win a general election. Winning a general

:13:17.:13:21.

election will not be easy. It will be very difficult unless the party

:13:22.:13:25.

can regain much more ground in Scotland than it has been capturing

:13:26.:13:30.

so far. It would still need to be five or six points ahead of the

:13:31.:13:35.

Conservatives to have some chance of a majority. There is an awful lot

:13:36.:13:38.

that the Labour Party needs to do before it would look like a majority

:13:39.:13:49.

government. How does the conservative vote compared to David

:13:50.:13:56.

Cameron? They got the highest since 1979. They both did relatively well

:13:57.:14:02.

but the crucial thing is what matters under first past the post is

:14:03.:14:10.

not the sheer of the vote. What matters is how well you do relative

:14:11.:14:16.

to your principal opponents. Failure to appreciate that has led a number

:14:17.:14:21.

of conservative politicians to say, hang on, we did better than we've

:14:22.:14:27.

ever done. But it's also a failure to appreciate that means Labour

:14:28.:14:31.

politicians are overestimating how well they've done because they were

:14:32.:14:40.

beaten by the Conservatives, by 2.5 percentage points. The Labour Party

:14:41.:14:42.

must demonstrate they can beat the Conservatives. There is a

:14:43.:14:51.

probability of boundary changes that will disadvantage Labour. They've

:14:52.:14:56.

got to demonstrate they can beat the Conservatives handsomely. What

:14:57.:15:01.

happened in Scotland? Do we know why the SNP lost a lot of seats? Are

:15:02.:15:07.

people voting tactically, buying into the line Labour and the

:15:08.:15:13.

Conservatives were saying, stop independence referendum to? It was a

:15:14.:15:24.

factor, of the dozen seats, it is perfectly clear in nine of them that

:15:25.:15:29.

either Labour or the Lib Dems were squeezed. It may have been tactical

:15:30.:15:35.

in some places. In Berwickshire people are going for who they

:15:36.:15:41.

prefer. There is an element of tactical voting. What we should

:15:42.:15:44.

remember in the rhetoric, the problem was not it could not

:15:45.:15:53.

appreciate -- appealed to people, but it failed to get those who are

:15:54.:15:59.

in favour of independence to vote for it. Only 75% of them voted for

:16:00.:16:11.

the SNP this time. People say, hang on, we should not hold a referendum

:16:12.:16:16.

now. It is clear there is not the kind of enthusiasm. But there are

:16:17.:16:31.

other explanations. Some supporters are disappointed with their domestic

:16:32.:16:38.

record. And the SNP never did particularly well in Westminster

:16:39.:16:43.

elections before now and it may be that some of that has kicked back

:16:44.:16:49.

in. One of the things that happened towards the end is the rise of the

:16:50.:16:54.

Labour Party donor so that one over young voters and probably damaged

:16:55.:17:00.

the SNP. The truth is there were a number of explanations. It is not

:17:01.:17:06.

simply the question of in the rest to dash of IndyRef2. We should not

:17:07.:17:13.

assume it is wholly off the table for the next three years. Thank you.

:17:14.:17:19.

Time for a look at the week ahead. Joining me here in Glasgow

:17:20.:17:27.

are freelance journalist Kathleen Nutt and Severin Carrell

:17:28.:17:29.

who's Scotland Editor And in Edinburgh, Political

:17:30.:17:31.

commentator David Torrance. David, let us start with the

:17:32.:17:42.

question of IndyRef. If you were the SNP, what would you do? I don't envy

:17:43.:17:48.

them. It is a fiendishly difficult circle to square. On the one hand,

:17:49.:18:01.

if Nicola Sturgeon says it is often dash off the table, she has a

:18:02.:18:06.

problem with the independence wing who are impatient, they want a

:18:07.:18:10.

referendum regardless of the outcome. If she says it is on the

:18:11.:18:20.

table, the fuel that propelled them to those gains is left burning. She

:18:21.:18:32.

is between a rock and a hard place. She needs to neuter the backlash and

:18:33.:18:43.

at the same time keep the dream alive for that section of her own

:18:44.:18:48.

party. It is not clear how she does that. I think Nicola Sturgeon will

:18:49.:18:56.

be working carefully at UK politics, and what will happen in terms of

:18:57.:19:04.

Brexit. It seems there will be a chance of a soft Brexit, if that

:19:05.:19:17.

continues, which is not a given, that could be the way out of it. The

:19:18.:19:26.

only reason she puts IndyRef on the table is because Theresa May had

:19:27.:19:32.

rejected the proposals for a soft Brexit. Those proposals were

:19:33.:19:45.

published by the Scottish Government but Theresa May did not respond

:19:46.:19:50.

until Article 50 was triggered at the end of March. David Davis said

:19:51.:19:57.

it was not feasible. Then Nicola Sturgeon pushed ahead and announced

:19:58.:20:06.

she would go ahead with the second referendum but that was the

:20:07.:20:11.

situation that faced her. If it is a hard Brexit then it will be on the

:20:12.:20:18.

table but soft Brexit, she was not suggesting it. Is that way out? Do

:20:19.:20:29.

remember Angus Robertson said, I asked him on this programme, if

:20:30.:20:33.

there is not a hard Brexit, would that mean in the -- IndyRef is not

:20:34.:20:42.

on the table and he said yes. Yes, Nicola Sturgeon is an onlooker. The

:20:43.:20:50.

outcome of the machinations at Westminster, the questions about the

:20:51.:20:55.

DUP, whether or not to reason may survive is, they are the critical

:20:56.:20:59.

questions. It is those outcomes which will shape Nicola Sturgeon's

:21:00.:21:04.

reaction. She has another problem. She needs to reassert herself on the

:21:05.:21:09.

domestic agenda. It is fine to start talking about Brexit and more

:21:10.:21:16.

conversation to happen in the SNP. Do you agree with David that they

:21:17.:21:21.

have to find some way of parking IndyRef? Yes. This is the

:21:22.:21:28.

opportunity. She can save face. The instability and uncertainty is so

:21:29.:21:33.

great that... She will say, we will park this, maybe we will not have

:21:34.:21:40.

the hard Brexit. They sort of leave it and then they can fight it in

:21:41.:21:46.

2021. It is more to do with the fact that there is so much fluidity in

:21:47.:21:51.

the way the UK Government will respond to Brexit, it gives them an

:21:52.:21:55.

opportunity. They now have an opportunity to get back into the

:21:56.:21:59.

conversation. I'm not sure how meaningful the SNP's insertion into

:22:00.:22:04.

the debate is going to be because they were decapitated on Thursday.

:22:05.:22:09.

It was a seriously difficult outcome. Having said that, one of

:22:10.:22:16.

the things that is unclear is what the Parliamentary involvement is

:22:17.:22:19.

going to be in the Brexit negotiations. Nobody seems very

:22:20.:22:24.

clear about it. Nobody seems to know the answer. You might be wrong,

:22:25.:22:34.

maybe the SNP group, the opposition would only need Kenneth Clarke and

:22:35.:22:39.

half a dozen of his mates and they would be in business. That is what

:22:40.:22:47.

awaits Nicola Sturgeon. If Jeremy Corbyn brings together an alliance,

:22:48.:22:56.

then the SNP are in a significant position. They are still the third

:22:57.:23:01.

biggest party at Westminster. Nicola Sturgeon needs to make a huge

:23:02.:23:05.

strategic decision, perhaps the most difficult, whether she decides in

:23:06.:23:13.

the rest -- IndyRef is off the table to give a coherent alliance down so.

:23:14.:23:20.

Labour will expect a concession on that if they are to start

:23:21.:23:26.

collaborating. David, we should remind everyone, the SNP are still

:23:27.:23:31.

winning, it is just in the last Scottish elections, the local

:23:32.:23:34.

elections and now this general election, support has been going

:23:35.:23:40.

down. Do you think leaving aside Brexit, they need to relaunch

:23:41.:23:44.

themselves as the Scottish Government, say, we have some fresh

:23:45.:23:48.

ideas and we really are going to genuinely try to sort out issues

:23:49.:23:52.

like the health service and education and this is what we are

:23:53.:23:58.

going to do? Yes, one former adviser said was, reset. There's a feeling

:23:59.:24:05.

within some sections of the party that they need to push to be set

:24:06.:24:10.

button on all that. Even they are it is kind of difficult. Education is

:24:11.:24:14.

fiendishly difficult to sort out over ten years, it has obviously

:24:15.:24:19.

declined on certain measurements. It is a push to think by the next

:24:20.:24:24.

election that will have been Karen Brown significantly. Another problem

:24:25.:24:32.

is a narrative one. The predominant tropes over the past few years,

:24:33.:24:39.

Scotland is implicitly anti-Tory and does not vote for conservatives and

:24:40.:24:42.

the Scottish Labour Party is right wing, neither of those attack claims

:24:43.:24:56.

can work. It hinges on Brexit. That is the only opportunity left. Let's

:24:57.:25:11.

talk about narratives. You get the feeling, people are so outraged at

:25:12.:25:15.

being dragged out of the European Union that even people who were

:25:16.:25:20.

against independence will say, we would rather be a separate country.

:25:21.:25:24.

There is no evidence of that happening. The SNP did not run a

:25:25.:25:35.

great campaign, I'm not sure I agree that it was all about opposition to

:25:36.:25:42.

a second independence referendum. Perhaps not and John Curtis made

:25:43.:25:48.

that point. I think the SNP did not put a very positive message in this

:25:49.:25:55.

campaign. It is not just Europe, the narratives are not attached to

:25:56.:26:00.

anything, the idea Scotland is different to England looks less

:26:01.:26:06.

credible when 30% of the population faltered for the Conservatives. If

:26:07.:26:14.

you say that the Tories are toxic you are insulting a third of the

:26:15.:26:20.

electorate. There was a clear difference, apart from

:26:21.:26:22.

anti-independence there was nothing else in the Tory manifesto. Are

:26:23.:26:28.

people really voting Tory to get tuition fees? Do they really know

:26:29.:26:35.

the consequences of what a Tory government would be at Holyrood?

:26:36.:26:42.

David said it was a reset. Do they need to do that? Absolutely crucial.

:26:43.:26:47.

Nicola Sturgeon needs to find a way of bringing the Scottish electorate

:26:48.:26:53.

back into love with the Scottish National Party. She will need to

:26:54.:26:58.

make a speech fairly quickly when she offers something that allows the

:26:59.:27:01.

SNP to get back on top of the agenda. I would agree with that. She

:27:02.:27:11.

needs to refresh the message and bring some new policies that will

:27:12.:27:19.

win over these yes supporters that have moved to Labour. That is all

:27:20.:27:21.

from us. Goodbye.

:27:22.:27:26.

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer are joined by Dominic Raab, Jon Ashworth, Anna Soubry and Graham Brady.

Journalists Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Tom Newton Dunn are on the political panel.


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