09/06/2013 Sunday Politics South East

And in the South East. Government stepped in to save struggling pubs

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2141 seconds

who big breweries and driving them fracking company is about to start

exploratory drilling, will politicians hold their nerve against

competition? I will ask the energy minister. Joining me to discuss this

on my guests. -- are my guests. An end to winter fuel payments to

pensioners would have a large impact in the South East. Figures show that

we have the highest number of wealthy pensioners in the country.

The Labour party has committed itself to removing some from those

who pay top rate income tax. How would those households cope with the

change? I am sure that you yourself agree with that policy. Did they

have it to good before? I think in this particular issue, you were

talking about people who earn �42,000 and up words, the fuel

pension support the was to deal with fuel poverty, those pensioners

making the choice between heating and eating. People who are in that

amount do not have that dilemma. In Hastings, I do not think it will

have a large impact. But you do not have to go far to find those who

will have problems with it. Now, but this is an area which I would

support. Why shouldn't wealthy pensioners remaking a contribution

in a time of recession? The myth is that it's only wealthy pensioners

affected. There will be a lot who are penalised by it. One in five

pensioners in the South East. Not everyone who pays the top rate of

income tax is rolling around wealthy. You could also be living in

a mansion, but if you do not have much income, you will still get

winter fuel allowance. There is a lack of credibility in this policy.

Pubs are closing at a rate of four week. Big breweries are said to be

making it impossible for pub landlords to make a decent wage.

Nearly all pubs are tied into large contracts with big breweries. The

Government is consulting on the relationship between pubs and

brewery owners, but do they need to step in and take action?

The great British pub. Its industry is worth �3 billion a year to the

South East economy. It makes our region more dependent than any other

in its success. We have one of the highest concentrations of pubs in

the country, but for close every week. It is a problem made worse,

say campaigners, because they are owned by a tenant licensees. They

say that there are inflated rates and drink prices, and without

regulation, they have them over a barrel. It is simply unfair. They

have had it the way for too long. That is one of the main reasons we

are losing so many pubs. It is supposed to mean that a tenant pays

a lower rent in exchange for buying beer from the company for a slightly

higher than normal price. But this publican says it does not always

work like that point He and his partner on this pub, but they used

to be licensees of two tied pubs in Brighton. Then the rent trebled in

11 years to �79,000. At the worst points, between the two pubs we

returning over 1 million each quarter and losing a huge amount --

huge amount of money on that point why was that? Because of the high

rents. That in addition to the tied beer prices. The beer selection was

also the same as everybody else had, so we were being undercut. The

pub across the road had a rental of �30,000 and was completely free.

Apparently it is too risky for tied tenants to speak out. In a house

like this you can buy any beer you want from any supplier, in a tied

house licensees have two by the drinks through the pub company.

Licensees say that the companies charge sometimes up to twice the

market rate for the beer, landlords say that is exploitative. Pub

companies say they have a voluntary code of practice that they have

adopted in the last three years and that things are improving. But

campaigners say it is not happening fast enough. We are trying to save

the great British pub quicker -- public commission might this week

they took their fight to Westminster. Government is proposing

a new adjudicator and legal framework. But campaigners want

tenants to have the option of printing at market rate without

being tied into buying drinks from the owners. There is market

dominance. In many cases, there has been bullying of the licensees. We

know that they are indebted, we know that the money extracted from the

pub schools to pay their creditors. It is a disaster for the UK economy

as well as for licensees and local pubs. The question is, will the new

statutory code includes a measure that. The overcharging? The only one

that well as the market rent only option. Some critics fear that the

power and wealth of companies is enough to lobby politicians. At

least two companies have decided they want to sue the Government over

the proposals. There are very good arguments for having lobbying reform

more generally for transparency. I have met with pub companies just

like I have met with licensees. But they should not be any undue

influence taken place. I can at least give assurance that I will

listen to all of the evidence when it comes to deciding on the next

steps that we take. Well the Government had to force the issue or

the pub companies change their village and licensees? If

regulations are introduced, will pub companies comply?

Lucinda Adams reporting will stop -- reporting. Never have another guest.

From outside the industry or you can see is that it seems unfair.

tied model system is a great system to run a business at a small amount

of capital. If you are someone who owns a free house you need �250,000

upwards to run your own pub. You can run your own pub tied to a pub

company or brewery for as little as �30,000. That is why it is a great

system. I do not think the tide landlords would agree when 60% of

them according to figures out this week earn less than the minimum

wage, �10,000. We have asked for the details. The big companies I

represent do not recognise those figures and until we see the detail,

we are talking about a small business, you cannot compare with

the gross salary. At the end of the day, the tied system allows

breweries in this country to exist. Some are owned by larger breweries.

It is essential that they have a way of selling beer beer. But those

owned by pub companies, I do not understand the issue over a choice.

They have more choice and those pub companies... They do not!But they

cannot... They are tied into these contracts plus the rents are going

up. No one apart from using is to think this is a good idea. I don't

think that's right. The Government has had to admit that the

consultation is wrong. They said over 400 complaints when they were

400 enquiries. This is a very well organised campaign. And as far as we

are concerned, the vast majority actually benefit from the tied

system. You seem to argue that nothing needs to change. What needs

to happen then? We have self-regulation, we are in version

six of the cord. There are many things, like having a transparent

and fear system. -- the code. There are some things in the consultation

that we can do. The self evaluation system is evolving. You can look at

a low-cost arbitration scheme, you can complain if your rent is too

high and anything else that is in the statutory code. It is legally

binding on the companies will stop but there is a danger that you would

get rid of our tied system. -- the companies. There is disagreement.

There are many high street shops closing. There is no one between an

untyped licensee and the bank. If you think that banks will step in

and buy the investment, that is a large revenue, 206 to �5 million to

provide new kitchens etc, I do not think so. Do you think that

statutory regulation would decline pubs? That is because of removing

the tie. Pub companies are really interested, it is not in the

interest for pubs to close. It costs them thousands of pounds. We have

had vast economic problems in this country. We have had a 42% increase

in beer taxation, which luckily, we got a small decrease in from the

Chancellor. We have to bring our guests in.

Does it matter if pubs shut? We are in a recession, changing cultural

habit is, should we be trying to keep them open at all costs? Amateur

about at all costs is, but I welcome the regulation. -- I am not sure. We

need an adjudicator who can step in. Public and is that I know

continually complain that the cost of the alcohol is too high that they

have to buy. They cannot bring guest beers as they would like to do. And

the cost of rent has gone up. A lot of businesses are in trouble. We do

one small businesses to survive, we know that they are part of the

community. If statutory late regulation does come in, it might

not work. -- statutory regulation. Something clearly has two change. We

cannot carry on as we are right now with pubs closing at an alarming

rate. It does seem bizarre that the entire arrangement can disadvantage.

You would not go into a supermarket and except -- and expect to only see

one brand. You should not only see one type of beer in a pub. We want

more freedom in our public houses, and I think that will see less pubs

closing. The fracking company that is

scheduled to start the exporting mission planned to go down 3,000

feet to take samples of underground rock in order to test for shill gas.

-- shale gas. There is a proposal that local communities should be

compensated. How firm is the Government's backing for fracking.

You were quoted last week in saying that you wanted to inject more pace

into shale gas. We want to see what the potential is. It has reduced the

cost of energy in the United States quite dramatically, helping

consumers and industry. If it turns out there is a lot of shale gas

underneath us in the UK, and if it can be extracted economically and

technically, then I think it would be irresponsible not to go down and

have a look. I am sure there were two enquiries, one was a select

committee, one was an organisation, they concluded that we are unlikely

to have cheaper fuel costs in this country because that gas is we find

it will be exported for higher costs abroad. We do not know about that

yet. First of all we need to know how much is down the -- down there.

We are a long way off looking at the potential prices. It only

indications are that there is quite a lot of it. -- early indications. I

will be publishing a report this month. There will be an official

estimate in that. That does not mean that you are able to recover that

gas. Geography is different here than the United States. There are

lots of potential sites here in the South East, including your

constituency. I am sure you are aware how much people are concerned

about the safety issues involved in exploration and extraction. How much

does that concern you? They do concern us and that is why we have a

robust regulatory system in place. There are licenses that you have to

have, then you have to ensure that you have notified the health and

safety executive, you have to have a permit from the environment agency,

and the water and methane emissions have to be fully controlled, and

finally, you have to have consent from my department. There is a whole

system of permissions and permits. Should local communities be given a

say in where the drill? They are, because each company needs planning

permission. Learning permission needs to come from each local

authority. That is the local authority, but will you gave

go-ahead for the latest exploration, ETA but to present -- 82% were

against the exploration. It sounds as though you are forcing it on

people. Now, they have planning permission from the local authority

there. We put the license out there and then it is up to the companies

to get planning permission and other permissions that are necessary. We

recognise that there is public concern about this. There has been

hydraulic fracking in this country prolonged time. It is well used and

recovering oil and gas. -- for a long time. We need to work with the

industry to ensure that when any production takes place there is a

benefit for the local community. must be concerned about the

political risk you are taking. It is interesting that you changed your

policy on wind farms lately to allow people the power to veto them that

not with shale gas exploration. are not directly the same. We say

that wind farms can still go ahead but must be appropriately sited. And

they must consult the local community properly. If they go

ahead, the local community has two benefit. That will be the same with

shale gas. We're looking at packages community benefits. We have to give

them discounts off their bells or provide the community with some kind

of benefit. -- of the bills. I do not think that your seat is

quite as safe as Michael Fallon's you concerned about losing

Conservative voters here in the South East? We need to bring people

with us on this. There is very little evidence that fracking has

polluted the environment. Think that the potential for shale gas is huge

in this country. At the moment, only 60% of the gas that we use is

produced by ourselves. The rest is imported. This would enhance our

energy security. What we are seeing with shale gas in America is that

prices can be driven down. Whether that applies to the UK is another

point. It is not definite. How do you persuade conservative voters who

are anti-best, -- who are against this that this is good and they

should go with its. We have been fracking for shale gas in this

country for years. The track record is pretty good. We often find that

those who are the sufferers against shale gas are also the same way

about nuclear, oil and coal. Wind farms will not generate all the

energy that we need in this country. We need to diversify. Some areas

have called themselves and of rack is on. Will you do the same? We have

a cross-party unhappiness about the idea of fracking. We are concerned.

I think the Government has a big problem, they are not reassuring

people. There is a reassurance on the impact geologically or the

impact of chemicals leaking into water causeways. Charles Hendry, a

previous Government environmental Minister, led a review that said

that as a result of the prices being hired abroad it would make no

difference to the price of shale gas here. Where has the greenest

Government in history gone? Where is the support for renewables? That is

my concern. There is no report on wind turbines. It is quite right

that you ask Michael Fallon about the encouragement of the Government

to speak to locals about wind farms. We will now have a round-up.

Local campaigners in holes have battled the Government and one.

There was plans for a new free school but protest was held the

plans at bay. Some changes need to be made at the

Royal Sussex in Brighton, according to a report the hospital is failing

in many areas. The hospital said they are working hard to make

improvements. Designer Wayne Hemingway is working

with this council to re-grade and abandoned theme park. He thinks he

has what it takes to make it a success. Without that bedrock it

would be difficult to deliver a financial success in this place.

Feast your eyes on her and they. In a Guardian tourism advert this area

got no mention and that has ruffled local feathers. The Guardian said it

was less likely to catch the attention of the readers.

The hardened bay. Let us go back to the free school in Brighton. --

Heron Bay. The... The local council voted let alone residents. With any

sort of educational establishment we have to bring the community with us.

It comes down to the popularity of the schools. In my constituency we

had the most described school in the whole county. -- the most overs per

described. You can satisfy the traditional needs of the area with

this plan. We need extra school places? Yes, but let us manage it.