Browse content similar to 30/03/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
Can Ed Davey keep the lights on? Can he ever deliver cheaper power? Or | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
the investment our energy market badly needs? We'll be asking the | :00:46. | :00:49. | |
Energy Secretary. Why has the anti-independence Better | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
Together campaign suddenly got the jitters? We'll be quizzing Scottish | :00:53. | :00:58. | |
Secretary Alistair Carmichael. And whatever happened to the BNP? | :00:59. | :01:00. | |
In the South West: A possible They could be heading for | :01:01. | :01:06. | |
In the South West: A possible setback for the policing of | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
alcohol`related crimes. And anger about the Government campaign | :01:10. | :01:10. | |
against full fat cheese. In London, changes to the authority | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
which runs the capital's Fire Service. The Mayor has a political | :01:16. | :01:18. | |
move designed to silence his critics. | :01:19. | :01:24. | |
And with me, as always, the most useless political panel in the | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
business, who we're contractually obliged to insult on a weekly basis. | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
But not today, because they are our chosen ones. They are the brightest | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
and the best, we've even hired a plane to prove it: Helen Lewis, | :01:38. | :01:45. | |
Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt who'll be tweeting throughout the programme. | :01:46. | :01:51. | |
Right, left and centre of the Westminster Establishment have been | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
unanimous in saying there would be no chance of monetary union with the | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
rest of the UK for an independent Scotland. Then an unnamed minister | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
spoke to our Nick saying that wasn't necessarily so, and that made the | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
Guardian's front page. The SNP were delighted and the anti-independence | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
campaign rushed to limit the damage. The faux pas has come at a time when | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
the Better Together side was already beginning to worry that things were | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
going the Nationalists' way. Let's speak to a leading light in that | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
campaign, Scottish Secretary Alistair Carmichael, who's in | :02:24. | :02:25. | |
Aberdeen at the Scottish Liberal Democrat spring conference. | :02:26. | :02:36. | |
Alistair Carmichael, why is there a sense of crisis now engulfing the no | :02:37. | :02:42. | |
campaign? I think that is something of an overstatement. What you have | :02:43. | :02:50. | |
got is, I am getting my own voice played back in my ear. What you have | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
got here is one story from an unnamed source, a minister who we | :02:56. | :03:01. | |
are told, we do not know for certain, who has speculated on the | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
possibility of a currency union actually happening. I do not think | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
that is helpful but it is not any big deal. You have to measure it | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
against what we have got publicly named on the record. We have got a | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
detailed intervention of the Governor of the Bank of England | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
Mark Carney, outlining all the reasons why a currency union would | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
not be a good idea. And then you have got independent advice from the | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
permanent Secretary of the Treasury himself saying actually, this is | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
such a bad idea, that I would never advise a chancellor to go ahead with | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
it. You set one against the other and you see that pretty much the | :03:37. | :03:42. | |
force of argument is very much against those of us who want to | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
remain in the United Kingdom. All the minister was saying is come the | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
day, if Westminster is negotiating with a new independent Scotland a | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
deal is to be done, Faslane where the nuclear deterrent is, there is | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
nowhere else in the UK to put that is, certainly not for the next 0 | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
years, a deal would be done, the nuclear weapons would stay in | :04:05. | :04:07. | |
Faslane and Scotland would get a monetary union with the rest of the | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
UK. That is perfectly plausible isn't it? No, I'm sorry, it is | :04:12. | :04:18. | |
simply not plausible. The economy is more important than anything else. | :04:19. | :04:21. | |
What you have had here is very clear advice from the treasury officials | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
saying it is not in the economic best interests of the people of | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
England Wales, Northern Ireland any more than it is in the interests of | :04:30. | :04:36. | |
people in Scotland. Where do you put the nukes? The outcome will not | :04:37. | :04:43. | |
change. Where do you put the nukes when the Nationalists kick you out? | :04:44. | :04:50. | |
I do not believe that will be a problem because I do not believe | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
Scotland will vote for independence. But you might be asking the Scottish | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
Nationalists, who are apparently promoting this, are they then not | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
sincere when they say they want to remove nuclear weapons from | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
Scotland? It seems to be a curious mixed message. As you know, I have | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
not got the Nationalists, I have got you, so let me ask you the | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
questions. You are widely seen as running a campaign which is too | :05:16. | :05:27. | |
negative. The Nationalists are narrowing the gap in the poll found | :05:28. | :05:29. | |
you are squabbling among yourselves. This campaign is going pear shaped, | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
isn't it? No, let's deal with the polls. All the polls show that the | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
people of Scotland want to stay as part of the United Kingdom. Yes | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
there were a couple of polls last week that said the gap was narrowing | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
a little. The most recent poll of all, the poll on Wednesday which | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
actually polled people's voting intentions on the question come | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
September showed that only 28% of people in Scotland were prepared to | :06:00. | :06:02. | |
say they were voting yes, as opposed to the 42% who were on our side of | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
the argument saying they wish to remain part of the UK. That poll | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
said women were skewing towards a yes vote and it showed that the | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
don't knows were beginning to skew towards a yes vote. That is why you | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
yourself wrote this morning that if your campaign does not get its act | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
together, you would be sleepwalking into a split to quote yourself. No, | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
to quote myself I said it was not impossible that the Nationalists | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
could win that. That is absolutely the case. The biggest danger for the | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
United Kingdom camp in this whole argument is people will look at the | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
polls. They show us with a healthy lead consistently. As a consequence, | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
they think this will not happen It can happen. I have got to tell | :06:51. | :07:05. | |
everybody that it could, not least because the Nationalists have an | :07:06. | :07:07. | |
enormous advantage in terms of the amount of money they have at their | :07:08. | :07:10. | |
disposal to buy momentum. They will be advertising in cinemas, in | :07:11. | :07:12. | |
football matches and on social media. We have got to realise what | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
is coming and as a consequence, we have got to get our arguments in | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
place and our campaign as sharp as theirs. Thank you for joining us. | :07:22. | :07:29. | |
Nick, this unnamed minister who gave you the story, did he or she know | :07:30. | :07:35. | |
what they were doing? I do not think they were sitting there wanting to | :07:36. | :07:42. | |
blast this out there, because the agreed government position was there | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
will not be a currency union, if there is a vote for independence. | :07:47. | :07:53. | |
But what I was managing to get hold of whether thoughts that are in the | :07:54. | :07:56. | |
deeper recesses of people's minds, when they are looking at the polls | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
which have been narrowing, or there was Alistair Carmichael quite | :08:01. | :08:03. | |
rightly says, the pro-UK vote is still ahead. People are looking down | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
the line, what would happen after the 18th of September this year not | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
just the next day but the next year, in those very lengthy | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
negotiations that would take place, when there would be a lot of moving | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
places on the table. You talked about Faslane, what would happen | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
then and that is what I managed to get hold of, that there are thoughts | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
about all those pieces that would be on the table. It is not surprising | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
that some in Westminster think that. Let's take the Shadow | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
Chancellor Danny Alexander at his word, they do not want a monetary | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
union. But if they are faced with giving the Scots a monetary union in | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
a post-independent Scotland, or having to remove the nuclear | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
submarines from Faslane, where they have nowhere else to put them, | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
probably except North America, there is a deal to be done. I think | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
whatever minister gave Nick his story is probably onto something. If | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
the Scots vote for independence of course a deal will be done about the | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
currency because it is not in London's interests to have a | :09:10. | :09:12. | |
rancorous relationship with Edinburgh. Even if the deal is not | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
done, how does one country stop another country using its. That is | :09:17. | :09:27. | |
different. All London can really do is prevent Scottish intervention on | :09:28. | :09:30. | |
the monetary policy committee. The interest rate would be set without | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
any regard to the Scottish interest. Even that is only a fatal problem if | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
the Scottish economy becomes so out of sync with the UK economy. Except | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
it is a problem for Scotland's financial system because if you go | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
down that route there is no means of injecting liquidity into the | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
financial system in the financial crisis. That is why they would | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
rather have a monetary union. Is it not remarkable to hear the Secretary | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
of State for Scotland here that the Nationalists are spending too much | :10:01. | :10:03. | |
money, when he represents a campaign which brings together all the major | :10:04. | :10:06. | |
parties in the UK and all the resources of the UK and he is | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
bleating about the Nationalists having more to spend? I did think | :10:12. | :10:14. | |
that was a funny line and it was in the Observer. It lays into Alex | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
Salmond's plucky upstart idea that he's taking on this big | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
establishment. I thought it was a bizarre open goal, I am losing my | :10:24. | :10:30. | |
football metaphors, forgive me. The polls are so in favour of a no | :10:31. | :10:38. | |
vote. But the trend has been going their way. We have six months left | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
which is not enough to close the gap. They always tell you Alex | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
Salmond is a strong finisher. The plucky upstarts have this funding | :10:47. | :10:53. | |
from a millionaire. The Better Together campaign are being | :10:54. | :10:56. | |
incredibly cautious about where they get their money from. They do not | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
want to go to the City of London Police say, give us a couple of | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
million. Being Energy Secretary used to be a | :11:04. | :11:06. | |
bit of a dawdle, especially when North Sea oil was flowing. Now it's | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
very much a hot potato as Ed Davey has been finding out the hard way. | :11:11. | :11:18. | |
High household energy bills have been top of his inbox. The big six | :11:19. | :11:26. | |
energy companies account for 95 of the market. Off Johnson -- Ofgem | :11:27. | :11:33. | |
said there had been possible tacit coordination in the timing of price | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
rises and ordered an investigation by the competition and markets | :11:39. | :11:40. | |
authorities which will look at whether the big six should be broken | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
up. Where does that leave investment? The boss of Centrica | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
made the point that you would not spend money building an extension if | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
you knew in two years time your home might be bulldozed. The spare | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
margin, that is what is left in the generating system to cope with a | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
surge in demand on a cold winter's night, is due to drop to | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
historically low levels in 2016 according to Ofgem. Normally at | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
around 15%, capacity could drop to 2% after the next election and that | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
could lead to a surge in the sale of candles. Now where is that light | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
switch? Energy Secretary Ed Davey, joins me | :12:23. | :12:28. | |
now. Oh, we have found the light switch! The gap between a peak | :12:29. | :12:36. | |
winter demand and generating capacity could possibly reach 2 | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
next winter or the winter after We will keep the lights on, that is for | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
clear. When we came to power, energy investment had been relatively low. | :12:48. | :12:50. | |
The Labour Party had failed to deal with the energy deficit. From day | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
one we have been pushing up massively. Investment has been | :12:55. | :13:02. | |
billion a year. Last year was a record. Spare capacity is now | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
heading to 2%. Why are you allowing it to get that no? Because we have | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
been increasing investment massively, last was a record level, | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
we will be able to keep the lights on. Some of the figures you are | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
showing suggests we are not doing anything. We have not only done | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
enough in our last three years, we have put in measures to stimulate | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
huge amounts of extra investment. We have the healthiest pipeline | :13:31. | :13:33. | |
investment in our history. We will come onto investment in a minute. | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
None of that change is the fact that we will be close to 2% next winter | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
or the winter after that. We have one major power station shut down, | :13:43. | :13:50. | |
or a cold winter away from having major problems with energy supply. | :13:51. | :13:57. | |
It is still 2%. Let me explain. The figures assume we are not doing | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
anything but we are doing something. Look at the National Grid. They are | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
able to bring in energy from interconnector is because we are | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
connected up to Europe. They are able to create a reserve so if we | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
get to problems, they will have a mothballed plant they can bring on. | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
You have not agreed with anybody on that. The decision was taken last | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
July. But no supplier has agreed to under mothball its plant. We would | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
not expect them to do that yet. Our plan is in place. On time, on | :14:34. | :14:40. | |
schedule, as we already thought it would be. But you have not got a | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
single agreement with a power supply who has mothballed plant to on the | :14:45. | :14:51. | |
ball it. We did not expect to. Our plan is in me National Grid will do | :14:52. | :14:57. | |
an election to allow those plants to come on. There is a huge amount of | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
interest. There are gigawatts of power that can come in to come on. | :15:02. | :15:04. | |
There is a huge amount of interest. There are gigawatts of power that | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
can come into that auction and we are not other measures we can take | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
and that is just in the short term. We have a plan for the medium-term. | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
We will be running the first auction for new capacity. The final decision | :15:18. | :15:33. | |
will be taken and we have learned lessons from what they do in North | :15:34. | :15:35. | |
America and other European countries so we can stay minute mothballed | :15:36. | :15:38. | |
plants and new plants to be built. I am absolutely clear there is not a | :15:39. | :15:47. | |
problem. You only build 9000 megawatts of new capacity from | :15:48. | :15:54. | |
2011-13. You have closed almost 22,000 megawatts. Why would you be | :15:55. | :15:57. | |
so cavalier with a nation's power supply? The last Government was | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
cavalier because we knew those figures are happening because we've | :16:03. | :16:05. | |
known for a long time a lot of power plants were coming to the end of | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
their life, coal power plants, nuclear power plants, and we had to | :16:10. | :16:12. | |
increase the rate of investment but we... That shows clearly you are | :16:13. | :16:20. | |
closing twice as much, you have to date, closed twice as much as you | :16:21. | :16:23. | |
have opened, hence the lack of spare capacity. We knew a lot of them are | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
coming back for the last Labour Government knew. We have increased | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
the new so that's increasing significantly, far faster than under | :16:32. | :16:34. | |
the last Government but also remember, you were very wrong at the | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
beginning of your clip, margins at 15% are very own usual. They are | :16:40. | :16:46. | |
historically high. The average margin was 25%. That was wasting a | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
huge amount of money. But since privatisation, we've had margins | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
between 5% and 10%. Normally, high margins historically, which is | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
costly. Now we will have historically low margins. People | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
have to pay for that, so we make sure the lights stay on, we have a | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
short-term policy I have described to you, and medium-term policy and a | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
long-term policy. The long-term policy comes huge investment between | :17:15. | :17:15. | |
nuclear and optional, policy comes huge investment between | :17:16. | :17:39. | |
on. Ofgem, Independent, says the chance of blackouts by 2016 has | :17:40. | :17:47. | |
increased fourfold under your watch. What they say, if you read the | :17:48. | :17:56. | |
report, if we did nothing, they would be problems. But we have been | :17:57. | :17:59. | |
working with Ofgem. We have been working with National Grid, and we | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
have agreed that there will be a reserve capacity which can come on | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
if we get to the peak for the Best not just on the supply side but | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
demand and into connectors. You talk about industry having to move to | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
off-peak times. We say, they are prepared to that you paid for it, | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
and it makes commercial sense for them, it's a sensible thing for the | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
Wii will pay them to move to off-peak. You have huge diesel parks | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
for the you talk as if that something new but it's been around | :18:31. | :18:33. | |
for a long time for the 200 these contracts out there. We want to | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
expand that. You have hundreds of diesel generators to click into | :18:40. | :18:42. | |
haven't you? There's a whole range of generators. Diesel generation, | :18:43. | :18:50. | |
dirty fuel. There's a of mothballed gas which can come. If you look at | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
the increase of the independent generators, many companies, a range | :18:56. | :19:05. | |
of power companies who are building a new power station and want to | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
build new ones. This is a healthy situation. You say you made over 100 | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
billion new investment between now and the end of the decade to restore | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
capacity and meet renewable targets. Now you have referred the | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
Big Six to the competition commission, how much of that to | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
expect to come from them? We will see what the market delivers. We | :19:27. | :19:31. | |
have always expected independent generators to do a lot more than is | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
happening in the past. How much from the Big Six? It's not for me to say | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
it's going to be best from that company. The real interest is we | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
have huge amounts of companies wanting to invest. If you look at | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
independent analysis, they say Britain is one of the best places to | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
invest in energy in the world. We are the worldly do in offshore | :19:55. | :19:57. | |
wind, one of the best for renewables, one of the only | :19:58. | :20:00. | |
countries getting nuclear power stations. Rather than the bleaker | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
picture you're painting, the reverse is the case. We are seeing an | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
investment renaissance. You say that. Let me give you some facts. | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
Under this Government, only one gas plant has been under construction, | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
only one started under your watch for the others were done under | :20:21. | :20:23. | |
Labour. You have none in the pipeline. The Big Six has pulled | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
back from further investment including new offshore wind | :20:29. | :20:31. | |
investment and none of what you re talking about will come before 020 | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
anyway. That's simply not true. The balance reserves I've talked about, | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
the reserve planned: Making sure the mothballed plant could come on, I | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
capacity market incentivising new power, will happen way before 2 20, | :20:45. | :20:51. | |
so that's not true. But doesn't answer the extra capacity. You have | :20:52. | :20:54. | |
no answer between now and the end of this decade. We have three answers. | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
Let me repeat them for you. I said permanent, not the short-term ones | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
you are putting in place to try to do with spare capacity. We have a | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
short-term plan, of course, that's very sensible. Medium-term plan | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
auctioning for new power stations. That can lead to both mothballed | :21:14. | :21:16. | |
plant and when you plant, permanent plant being built, and the long term | :21:17. | :21:22. | |
plan, to stimulator long-term investment, some of which will be | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
built and come online way before the end of the decade. I'm afraid, it's | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
a far rosier picture than your painting. It's also far more | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
expensive, too. Let's look at how you are replacing relatively cheap | :21:36. | :21:38. | |
energy with much more expensive sources of energy. Wholesale prices | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
is ?50 per megawatt. You have done a deal with EDF, nuclear, ?92 50. You | :21:45. | :21:51. | |
have indexed it for 30 years at 2012 prices. | :21:52. | :22:02. | |
All of that puts up our bills. First of all, the support of the low | :22:03. | :22:11. | |
Carbon is just 4% on bills. What has been driving peoples bills over the | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
last decade has been wholesale gas prices. No one knows what guys | :22:17. | :22:19. | |
prices are going to be in the future -- gas prices. When you look at the | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
Ukraine and other market indicators, many people are worried that by the | :22:25. | :22:27. | |
time nuclear power stations come online for example, the price of gas | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
could be significantly higher. You have indexed linked that for them by | :22:33. | :22:35. | |
the time you get any power from this, it'll be up to ?125 per | :22:36. | :22:41. | |
megawatt hour. The price of gas been going up far higher. Not recently. | :22:42. | :22:50. | |
Despite Iran, Ukraine, Libya, not recently. The long-term forecast, | :22:51. | :22:53. | |
Andrew, it's going to go higher but more importantly than that, this is | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
an area we could disagree on but it's very important that power | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
plants pay the cost of pollution. In those prizes, all of those prices | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
except the wholesale out a steep price, you have those power stations | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
paying the cost of air pollution. If gas and coal where paying the proper | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
carbon price, you would see nuclear and renewables as competitive. It's | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
very important that we ensure that power plants pay the cost of the | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
pollution. When you were last on this programme to talk about this in | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
May 2012, you said that the price of offshore wind was coming down fast. | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
You told me it would be down by 30% in the next few years. That figure | :23:35. | :23:39. | |
is 155, and for the deeper stuff, it's going to be ?165. That's the | :23:40. | :23:45. | |
first year of a limit control framework which had it coming down. | :23:46. | :23:53. | |
If you talk to many companies, Siemens had invested with their | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
partners, ?310 million with two new factories. They are talking about | :23:59. | :24:04. | |
lower prices because what they are saying to me is that, rather than | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
the 30% cost reductions I talked about, I was wrong, they are | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
targeting 40%. You said prices would come down 30% in two years for that | :24:16. | :24:19. | |
that was 2012 and they have gone higher. I absolutely did not say | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
that. Your exact quote was 30% in the next few years. Your exact few | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
years. You said two years, I sell a few years. I haven't changed a | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
single moment that you said two years, I said a few years. That s | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
what we are projecting. They will come down. You have to invest in | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
technology. Let me give you this example. When people invest in | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
mobile phones to start off with they were expensive, and they were | :24:47. | :24:55. | |
clunky and the costs were going down for the one final question. You put | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
the Big Six into investigation because they made a 5% return on | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
investment and you're done a deal with EDF, nuclear power, which will | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
guarantee them a return of 10% 15% every year for 30 years. Doesn't | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
that underline the shambles of your energy policy? You have mixed up two | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
separate things. The 5% Ofgem are talking about is on the supply | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
retail side. The percentage you quoted for EDF is in the wholesale | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
side of two different markets. It's the same return. It's not. You are | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
comparing apples and pears, dangerous thing to do. You have to | :25:33. | :25:38. | |
do have a high return but in the retail market, with a 5% stake, | :25:39. | :25:41. | |
there is less risk, says a low return. Ed Davey, I'm sorry we | :25:42. | :25:49. | |
haven't got more time. Thank you. Have me back. We will. Whatever | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
happened to the BNP? The far right party looked as if it was on the | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
verge of a major breakthrough not so long ago. Now it seems to be going | :25:59. | :26:02. | |
nowhere. In a moment we'll be speaking to the party's press | :26:03. | :26:04. | |
officer, Simon Derby. But first here's Giles. His report contains | :26:05. | :26:07. | |
some flash photography. For a moment in 2009 Nick Griffin and the BNP had | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
a spring in their step, smiling at their success of winning two seats | :26:12. | :26:14. | |
in the European Parliament. They already were the second largest | :26:15. | :26:17. | |
party in a London council and had a London Assembly seat. Despite | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
concerns from mainstream parties their vote was up. Our vote | :26:22. | :26:32. | |
increased up to 943,000. Savouring success was brief that morning as | :26:33. | :26:35. | |
anti-far right protestors invaded and egged the press conference and | :26:36. | :26:38. | |
forced the BNP MEPs into a hasty retreat. What is more significant is | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
that, in the years since, that retreat has been matched internally, | :26:44. | :26:46. | |
electorally and in the minds of those who had given them that vote. | :26:47. | :26:56. | |
For a number of years they were performing better than the UK | :26:57. | :26:59. | |
Independence Party and other smaller parties like the Greens and respect. | :27:00. | :27:02. | |
The problem for the BNP if they didn't make any inroads into other | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
groups, they didn't go into the middle class, the young, they didn't | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
go into women and ethnic minorities for obvious reasons. So the party | :27:11. | :27:13. | |
was quickly handicapped from the outset. Not that you would have | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
known that at the outset. In 20 6 in Barking and Dagenham, the party won | :27:20. | :27:22. | |
12 council seats against a back drop of discontent with the ruling Labour | :27:23. | :27:25. | |
council and Government and picking up on immigration and housing | :27:26. | :27:34. | |
concerns in the borough. It's because of all the different | :27:35. | :27:37. | |
nationality people moving in the area, they are taking over | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
everything. My Nan and grandad lived there all their lives. I thought I | :27:42. | :27:47. | |
would vote for BNP. Hopefully, yeah, they will get elected over here | :27:48. | :27:53. | |
When I came to Barking, Dagenham and Redbridge in 2006, the BNP with a | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
second largest party in one of the local councils. You can even find | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
non-white people who voted BNP. Now they have no counsellors, and even | :28:03. | :28:05. | |
though can when you talk to people, you will find among the older white | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
working-class population concerned that the BNP claim to represent | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
everyone says they are nowhere. So what happened to that about? On | :28:15. | :28:21. | |
behalf of all the people in Britain, we in Barking have not just beaten, | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
that we have smashed the attempt of extremist outsiders. The local | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
Labour MP was as clear in 2010 as she is now. I always knew if we | :28:31. | :28:38. | |
could manage to ensure that wasn't a single BNP councillor left on the | :28:39. | :28:41. | |
council and I won my seat, it would stop the process of disintegration. | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
But what beat the BNP here in 2 10 was a mobilisation of the Labour | :28:46. | :28:48. | |
vote. And today it is not hard to find the same discontent over the | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
same issues. It's just finding a new political home. A couple of years | :28:53. | :29:00. | |
ago, I used to vote Labour. Obviously, they haven't done nothing | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
around here as much now, with jobs and unemployment, and housing and | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
stuff like that about, basically, BNP ain't around here no more. Now | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
it's more about UKIP and I believe that these UKIP are saying are true. | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
If I thought BNP would make the difference, I would vote but is not | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
in the people behind them. They all get bandaged with the same brush. | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
I'm going to vote UKIP because BNP didn't get anywhere. What they say | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
in UKIP, with a bit of luck, they will get somewhere. It's not racist | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
but it's just that our kids haven't got jobs. Nick Griffin's dislike of | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
UKIP is mutual but his once fellow MEP Andrew Brons who's now left the | :29:40. | :29:42. | |
party issued a statement to this programme saying BNP failure is | :29:43. | :29:51. | |
closer to home post 2010. It was after that election discontent arose | :29:52. | :29:53. | |
amongst sections of the membership. Those members who left or were | :29:54. | :30:10. | |
thrown out by Nick Griffin had already felt let down by his | :30:11. | :30:14. | |
appearance on Question Time. It was a national platform for the BNP | :30:15. | :30:17. | |
something they felt they had the right to through electoral success. | :30:18. | :30:27. | |
This was no big breakthrough moment for Griffin, unlike it was for John | :30:28. | :30:33. | |
Marina pen when he appeared on national television in France. He | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
went on to mobilise a national force. Despite there being some | :30:38. | :30:40. | |
voters tuned to their message, for the BNP, becoming such a force here | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
has never looked quite so difficult. And Simon Derby from the BNP joins | :30:45. | :30:52. | |
me now. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It was not long ago you | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
had 55 councillors up and down the land, you now have two. You are on | :30:57. | :31:02. | |
the brink of extinction. That is not true. I have watched the film. It is | :31:03. | :31:08. | |
very negative as I would expect The party has faced a few problems. The | :31:09. | :31:13. | |
main thing to bear in mind is that the issues, the problems the country | :31:14. | :31:19. | |
faces have gone away. We won nearly a million votes in the European | :31:20. | :31:24. | |
elections. We brought that mandate to the establishment and we were | :31:25. | :31:34. | |
denied. Let's face it, we would -- were denied any opportunity to take | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
place in the political apparatus. You have been destroyed by a pincer | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
movement. UKIP has taken away or more respectable voters and the EDL | :31:45. | :31:52. | |
is better at anti-Muslim protests and street thuggery. The EDL is not | :31:53. | :31:58. | |
a political party. I take your point about UKIP. The power structure took | :31:59. | :32:02. | |
a look at us and so we were a threat to power. We were not making this | :32:03. | :32:08. | |
stuff up, we meant it and they have co-opted our message. This shameless | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
promotion of UKIP, you have evenly had him presenting the weather on | :32:14. | :32:16. | |
this programme. That is unbelievable. That was a joke. | :32:17. | :32:22. | |
Across Europe, in France, your sister party the National front will | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
probably do very well. You can see the rise of the far right across | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
Western Europe so why are you in decline? We are not far right, I | :32:33. | :32:38. | |
reject that label. How would you describe yourselves nationalists and | :32:39. | :32:56. | |
Patriots. Why are you in decline and other similar parties to yours are | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
on the rise? You mentioned Barking and it is very interesting because I | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
was involved in that campaign. What Margaret Hodge and her Labour Party | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
did, they replaced the white indigenous population in Barking and | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
Dagenham with Africans, that is how they won that election. For that was | :33:15. | :33:17. | |
true, you would be doing well elsewhere. You have now got a leader | :33:18. | :33:23. | |
who is declared bankrupt and your party is heading for bankruptcy | :33:24. | :33:29. | |
No, it is not. It is over. You would like that. What I would like is | :33:30. | :33:35. | |
irrelevant. Your membership is in deep decline. All parties have highs | :33:36. | :33:41. | |
and lows. In 2009 they said it is no way you will win any seats in the | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
European election. We did. And then you lost them. Parties win and lose | :33:47. | :33:54. | |
seats. The Lib Dems will be annihilated. You deny you are far | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
right. People used to say the BNP were neo-Nazis. Then Nick Griffin | :34:01. | :34:11. | |
appeared with Golden Dawn. They are not neo-Nazis, they are Nazis. It is | :34:12. | :34:16. | |
part and parcel of being in politics. You have to appear with | :34:17. | :34:23. | |
them? Of course we do, we have to speak to ordinary people. I am | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
perfectly happy speaking to you at the BBC, the BBC have a terrible | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
reputation but I am happy to be here. Mr Griffin has asked me, when | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
will the BBC apologised for trying to put him in prison twice, merely | :34:37. | :34:43. | |
for exposing a Muslim scandal. Why can't Nick Griffin appear on TV and | :34:44. | :34:51. | |
self? He would not appear. He was in Syria. He literally flew out to | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
Damascus and prevented a war. We decided we would not interfere in | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
Syria. The BBC never covered that. Please do not make out we are just | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
an ordinary political party you cover like everybody else. It is | :35:07. | :35:13. | |
completely different. All the signs are, membership, performance at the | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
polls, performance at elections, the problem with your leadership is you | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
are now going the way of the National front, heading for | :35:23. | :35:26. | |
oblivion. As I said to you before, that may be the case, if all the | :35:27. | :35:31. | |
problems we had not highlighted and how we got a huge vote so many years | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
ago, six years ago now, five years ago, in 2009, if they were not | :35:37. | :35:41. | |
around. These things are only going to get worse. We are looking at a | :35:42. | :35:45. | |
prototype Islamic republic that is going to be set up in this country. | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
That will lead to huge problems. Only the British National Party are | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
prepared to say that and deal with it. Word leaked out that I was doing | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
this interview with you before the weekend. Isn't it a sign of how | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
irrelevant you now are that not a single person has turned up at New | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
Broadcasting House this morning to protest? Used to be hundreds would | :36:09. | :36:13. | |
turn up when we said the BNP were on. That is the left for you, they | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
put the clocks forward and they could not be bothered to get out of | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
bed. I think they are still in bed. Thank you. | :36:22. | :36:24. | |
You're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in | :36:25. | :36:27. | |
Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in | :36:28. | :36:31. | |
20 minutes, the Hello, I'm Lucie Fisher. Coling up | :36:32. | :36:46. | |
on the Sunday Politics in the South West: Full fat cheese and the new | :36:47. | :36:50. | |
government campaign against it which is making local producers angry And | :36:51. | :36:56. | |
for the next 20 minutes, I'l joined by the Labour MP Alison Seabeck and | :36:57. | :36:59. | |
Lib Dem DEFRA Minister Dan Rogerson, welcome both of you to the | :37:00. | :37:03. | |
programme. The High Speed R`il project was back on the agenda at | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
Westminster this week and sdveral of our MPs jumped on the chancd to | :37:08. | :37:10. | |
argue for more investment in the South West. My right honour`ble | :37:11. | :37:22. | |
friend knows that in the sotth west we don't speak about High Speed | :37:23. | :37:28. | |
Rail, other focuses on real in the first place, getting Beacon elected | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
to London after the winter storms. At the same time as spending all of | :37:33. | :37:38. | |
this money can he sure as there will be sufficient to invest in `n | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
alternative route as soon as it has been identified by Network Rail | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
Well, the Transport Secretary didn't make the commitment to fundhng an | :37:47. | :37:49. | |
alternative line which Gary Streeter had asked for, but he did promise | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
the old line was on course to re`open on the 4th of April. There | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
is a risk here that once thhs line reopens we will all be forgotten | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
about down here, the line rdopen and we can move on? Network Rail have to | :38:04. | :38:09. | |
look at all the evidence put in front of them. We'll will come much | :38:10. | :38:19. | |
closer to my constituency. H would be in favour of that. I am hn favour | :38:20. | :38:25. | |
of the ideas we need to makd that evidence `based. You are | :38:26. | :38:35. | |
seeing`macro a line past and, if all the MPs in the south`west are not | :38:36. | :38:39. | |
agreeing it is not a good position to start from. You would like one | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
somewhere else? You would expect we need the strong route to thd | :38:45. | :38:50. | |
reconnected. See defences that will protect it. There could be `ny other | :38:51. | :38:57. | |
form of accident or landslip, if there is only one line into a region | :38:58. | :39:03. | |
that is the problem. To havd the second line look at the comlunities | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
that do not have any real and then we can meet several objectives. A as | :39:08. | :39:14. | |
in the hundreds of millions of pounds, RB being realistic? At the | :39:15. | :39:22. | |
moment we have an East Coast rail line query you can travel at 92 mph | :39:23. | :39:29. | |
on average. In the South waste it is down to 60 mph. We need the economic | :39:30. | :39:37. | |
cases there for a line that will allow faster and more frequdnt and | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
reliable services. We need improvement to the signalling which | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
will make a significant difference and the diversionary route. We are | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
running out of time on the subject but I wanted to ask why we could not | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
get money from Europe to help build this line, the busy port th`t can go | :39:57. | :40:02. | |
to help after some kind of natural disaster? The floods? There is a | :40:03. | :40:15. | |
pot. Was this not our chancd? The government can access funds from | :40:16. | :40:20. | |
outside the country or we c`n invest the money domestically. The issue is | :40:21. | :40:24. | |
if we have the route that m`kes sense economically then we can find | :40:25. | :40:30. | |
the money to do it. I spoke to another south`west MP who w`s | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
instrumental in 2007 on bringing money from Europe and she thinks you | :40:37. | :40:42. | |
should have done this. Given the money we get back to the rebate any | :40:43. | :40:47. | |
money we got from Europe to deal with a flooding aftermath would have | :40:48. | :40:54. | |
lost some of the rebate. But in the south`west it might have bedn worth | :40:55. | :41:00. | |
it? Once all the various gr`ndson budgets have been announced... That | :41:01. | :41:09. | |
is all out of our report. `` grants and budgets. I think she has the | :41:10. | :41:16. | |
case. I am disappointed that the government have decided thex think | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
they would be robbing Peter to pay Paul. I think we need more | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
information on why we have not on with this option. OK, we will move | :41:26. | :41:32. | |
on. Police efforts to bring down the number of violent crimes fudlled by | :41:33. | :41:35. | |
alcohol abuse may have suffdred a set`back this week. Plymouth City | :41:36. | :41:38. | |
Council has been deciding on a new licensing policy, and while | :41:39. | :41:40. | |
councillors are making it more difficult for off`licenses to open | :41:41. | :41:43. | |
where street drinking is a problem, they failed to agree on plans to | :41:44. | :41:47. | |
make bars pay towards the costs of policing the streets at night. Jenny | :41:48. | :41:55. | |
Kumah reports. Brian has bedn sober for more than 20 years but `t his | :41:56. | :42:01. | |
lowest point he was drinking to bottles of vodka per day. I got the | :42:02. | :42:11. | |
post, I was bankrupt in my business. Send me to prison, make me violent. | :42:12. | :42:17. | |
All the things you do not w`nt to be, alcohol turned me into that | :42:18. | :42:23. | |
person. He had to take conscious steps to avoid temptation. H would | :42:24. | :42:31. | |
go to a shop that did not h`ve an off`licence. Anything to kedp me | :42:32. | :42:35. | |
away from it especially in the early times. There were plans to stop | :42:36. | :42:46. | |
shops selling drink near alcohol recovery programmes. The next door | :42:47. | :42:55. | |
to a discount alcohol store and several supermarkets has its | :42:56. | :43:00. | |
challenges. People come herd to get our help, the fact there is easier | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
access to alcohol is the issue we are really dealing with. Th`t is | :43:06. | :43:09. | |
what the new policy is tendhng to address. Feedback from charhties | :43:10. | :43:16. | |
like this one has also highlighted the issue of street drinking in | :43:17. | :43:23. | |
parts of Plymouth. Apart from the illicit side of it it is re`lly just | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
anti`social. People do not like it at all. It can be really off`putting | :43:29. | :43:34. | |
for people. Some retailers `re helping to tackle the probldm by not | :43:35. | :43:40. | |
selling drink before 11am and refusing to serve known problem | :43:41. | :43:46. | |
drinkers. They could have to agree not to sell single cans or | :43:47. | :43:49. | |
high`strength drinks before being given a licence. I think it is a | :43:50. | :43:56. | |
good idea. A lot of the problem is the low cost of drink but they have | :43:57. | :44:01. | |
to find a way of actually controlling this. The appro`ch of | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
Plymouth has been widely welcomed. This week the council has f`ced | :44:07. | :44:13. | |
criticism for delaying the late`night levy. The charge could | :44:14. | :44:19. | |
raise a from bars and clubs for policing and clean`up costs. The | :44:20. | :44:25. | |
plans have been put on hold until the government changes its ` | :44:26. | :44:31. | |
announces its changes to license fees. I think Plymouth, and I have | :44:32. | :44:37. | |
talked with the reader over this, in my view should move ahead whth any | :44:38. | :44:41. | |
measures that curb the excesses of alcohol. It could cost some | :44:42. | :44:50. | |
businesses up to ?4000 per xear The Labour leader of Plymouth chty | :44:51. | :44:53. | |
council has warned this del`y is merely a postponement, not ` | :44:54. | :45:00. | |
cancellation. The council dhd not go far enough as far as the police are | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
concerned, do you think thex were wrong? They have avoided a knee jerk | :45:06. | :45:11. | |
reaction to a problem that does need resolution. The problem is `ctually | :45:12. | :45:20. | |
that the government have put out an annual review into the way that | :45:21. | :45:27. | |
licensing fees are structurdd. What Plymouth city council are doing is, | :45:28. | :45:30. | |
rather than doing something now that will affect some retailers, then | :45:31. | :45:35. | |
having to change it in a few weeks time, they are waiting to sde | :45:36. | :45:40. | |
exactly what the government will propose and that is bigger on all | :45:41. | :45:46. | |
retailers. The government h`s set a timescale for its consultathon and | :45:47. | :45:49. | |
there are thoughts it will be delayed, if that is the casd I would | :45:50. | :45:55. | |
certainly be concerned and `s a local MP would be harrying the | :45:56. | :46:01. | |
government to come up with `n cancer. We do agree this is the way | :46:02. | :46:07. | |
to go? Tony Hogg is disappohnted, he was hoping to get more reaction to | :46:08. | :46:17. | |
counsel. `` come up with an answer. We need community pubs were | :46:18. | :46:23. | |
responsible drinking is encouraged and will the atmosphere is lore | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
appropriate. We do not want to see jobs `` shops using alcohol as a | :46:29. | :46:34. | |
loss leader, selling it at ` discount price which is what we have | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
seen in the past. The message we need is that we all need to work | :46:40. | :46:45. | |
together to tackle it. It is tempting to look across the water to | :46:46. | :46:51. | |
Europe and ask why we don't have the same problems `` why they do not | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
have the same problems. Strdet brawls, domestic violence, ht does | :46:56. | :47:00. | |
not view `` appear they havd the same problems. They perhaps eat and | :47:01. | :47:08. | |
drink together rather than dat something and then go out drinking | :47:09. | :47:15. | |
on its own, or worse just drink on its own. They do eat and drhnk | :47:16. | :47:23. | |
together it is a different habit. We do not want people to be affected in | :47:24. | :47:31. | |
an irresponsible way. We want to tackle this problem. We havd the | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
problem of alcoholism. Figures out this week showed liver dise`se is up | :47:36. | :47:43. | |
40% across the whole population in one decade. It is an import`nt | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
issue. Should people have lhver function tests as routine? Perhaps | :47:49. | :47:54. | |
this is more of the problem than we are making. I think it would give | :47:55. | :47:58. | |
quite a few people a shock to have the liver function test and realise | :47:59. | :48:04. | |
they are affected by increased alcohol consumption. In America it | :48:05. | :48:11. | |
is not a problem. You do not drink until you are 21 in America, they | :48:12. | :48:17. | |
are very hot on ID and also drunkenness is frowned upon. Is it | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
possible we do need governmdnt action, a big campaign like smoking, | :48:22. | :48:27. | |
like keep Britain tidy, there used to be bitter on the streets and now | :48:28. | :48:32. | |
it is not such a big problel because the targeted children. Cert`inly | :48:33. | :48:38. | |
binge drinking is not sensible and there were programmes and soap opera | :48:39. | :48:43. | |
is that went down that path. I would rather see cheap alcohol done away | :48:44. | :48:49. | |
with in supermarkets. Responsible drinking in pubs overseen bx | :48:50. | :48:52. | |
responsible adults and therd are plenty of them out there, some | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
lovely pubs will stop I think we have lost some of that. Sews support | :48:58. | :49:05. | |
the good side of it? Now from wine to cheese. A Government healthy | :49:06. | :49:10. | |
eating campaign urging us all to eat less saturated fat has been under | :49:11. | :49:13. | |
attack this week. There was talk of a new fridge magnet from thd | :49:14. | :49:16. | |
Department of Health's Change For Life team saying, "Reduced fat | :49:17. | :49:19. | |
cheese, if you please." A mdssage which is angering the producers of | :49:20. | :49:22. | |
full fat cheese here in the South West as Anna Varle reports. This is | :49:23. | :49:27. | |
the amount of fat in that cold pizza. There are 17 cubes of sugar | :49:28. | :49:34. | |
in that fizzy drink. This is the campaign which is causing so much | :49:35. | :49:40. | |
controversy. One week to cut down on saturated fat is to switch to | :49:41. | :49:48. | |
reduced fat cheese, skimmed milk and low`fat spread. This has not gone | :49:49. | :49:54. | |
down with farmers like this woman. She says this is the last thing the | :49:55. | :50:03. | |
daily industry needs. If people are saying let's eat less satur`ted fat, | :50:04. | :50:09. | |
that is animal products and that is what this part of the world do so | :50:10. | :50:14. | |
well. Farmers do not need any more burdens to carry after the flooding | :50:15. | :50:19. | |
and everything else. We would like a government that is getting behind us | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
and seeing`macro accurate information rather than this old | :50:24. | :50:29. | |
news. Farmers are not the only ones unhappy with this campaign, there | :50:30. | :50:34. | |
has been a campaign within the Tory party. Yes, people can look at what | :50:35. | :50:41. | |
they are eating but we must make sure this is the wholesome product | :50:42. | :50:46. | |
and everything that is in that cheese and milk. This is whx farmers | :50:47. | :50:51. | |
will feel let down by this. The government campaign says if this is | :50:52. | :50:56. | |
about advising people on sm`ll changes they can make to he`lthy | :50:57. | :51:02. | |
eating. It does not say that DD is bad for you and it can be enjoyed as | :51:03. | :51:13. | |
part of a healthy diet. `` daily. Currently I think there is ` role | :51:14. | :51:19. | |
for improving diet overall. It is important that the message hs | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
consistent to get across to the whole of the public. It is not just | :51:24. | :51:29. | |
TV and healthy eating campahgns every time you go into a supermarket | :51:30. | :51:36. | |
you are reminded about how luch saturated fat products cont`in. This | :51:37. | :51:42. | |
is ruffling feathers in Europe. This is high in saturated fat and this | :51:43. | :51:48. | |
traffic labelling system is done voluntarily by retailers but it has | :51:49. | :51:55. | |
caused controversy in Europd. In Italy the say`macro it is unclear. | :51:56. | :52:01. | |
This has spurred an enquiry. New rules are coming in at the dnd of | :52:02. | :52:05. | |
the year which farmers like Mary are happy with. Anna Varle reporting, | :52:06. | :52:11. | |
and joining us to discuss this is Victoria Taylor from the Brhtish | :52:12. | :52:19. | |
Heart Foundation. Is she is bad for you? It is not. There are lots of | :52:20. | :52:26. | |
important things we get frol meat and the products but we do have the | :52:27. | :52:31. | |
problem with the amount of saturated fat we are eating. We have to start | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
making small changes to redtce that. Is the government misleading people | :52:37. | :52:42. | |
when it says we have to cut down on daily intake, low`fat products are | :52:43. | :52:48. | |
good for hours in a way? Wh`t the change for life project did was look | :52:49. | :52:55. | |
at where the saturated fat, salt and sugar was coming from in our diet. | :52:56. | :53:01. | |
They have chosen the foods that make the biggest contribution so, in that | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
sense, it is quite helpful for people to identify where it is | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
coming from. Do you think the government has gone too far here? I | :53:12. | :53:18. | |
think there is a rescue can become too prescriptive on this. You are | :53:19. | :53:22. | |
probably asking the wrong pdrson because I am a huge fan of full fat | :53:23. | :53:29. | |
cheese but it is all about ` properly balanced diet combhned with | :53:30. | :53:34. | |
exercise and educating people to understand that if you want to live | :53:35. | :53:38. | |
a healthy life you have to have those combinations of things going | :53:39. | :53:46. | |
on. I take very much the pohnt the farmer made in the film abott the | :53:47. | :53:50. | |
need for marking of products in a way that the public underst`nd that | :53:51. | :53:57. | |
is not detrimental to busindss. Hopefully the new signage whll help | :53:58. | :54:05. | |
both. This new traffic lights system that has come in, it brings me back | :54:06. | :54:10. | |
to Europe and the French wotld they do not fancy this system we read is | :54:11. | :54:15. | |
or foods that are bad with xou because when it comes down to it, | :54:16. | :54:20. | |
things like olive oil and their famous cheeses are going to be in | :54:21. | :54:26. | |
the red category. It is important for people to think about what they | :54:27. | :54:31. | |
are eating. It is easy to jtst grab something. We have wonderful baby | :54:32. | :54:36. | |
products in this country and what I welcome from the daily industry `` | :54:37. | :54:57. | |
dairy industry is their inptt. Do you have sympathy with the farmer in | :54:58. | :55:05. | |
the piece? I used to cheer the all`party group on cheese and the | :55:06. | :55:17. | |
dairy industry. She says yot are telling her business. I do not think | :55:18. | :55:21. | |
she was seeing`macro we are telling her business. We are working with | :55:22. | :55:28. | |
creating new markets for dahly abroad as well and this is crucial | :55:29. | :55:34. | |
to the future of the industry. The Italians have been saying they will | :55:35. | :55:41. | |
try to get the traffic light system ruled out because they think it is | :55:42. | :55:46. | |
unhelpful, with that be a b`d thing to get rid of our Liebling? We would | :55:47. | :55:51. | |
be very concerned about anything that would change our systel. We | :55:52. | :56:00. | |
know it is the format that lakes it easiest for people to make ` healthy | :56:01. | :56:06. | |
choice and informing people and giving them that information so that | :56:07. | :56:10. | |
they can make a healthy chohce is vital. Should that be on all food | :56:11. | :56:16. | |
products? Should we go the other way from Europe and say this is | :56:17. | :56:25. | |
important? We do not need to impose things on a sector which is | :56:26. | :56:30. | |
responding and doing things. People want information not just on | :56:31. | :56:35. | |
nutritional value but also on provenance and evil range of things. | :56:36. | :56:39. | |
That is why labelling is so crucial. It is time for our regular | :56:40. | :56:52. | |
round`up of the political wdek in 60 seconds. The police came under fire | :56:53. | :56:59. | |
for failing to deal with dolestic abuse. They are producing lots of | :57:00. | :57:06. | |
pieces of paper and lots of policies, not all of those things | :57:07. | :57:10. | |
are actually being action. Concerns were raised that families struggling | :57:11. | :57:16. | |
with heating costs are not getting the money available. About half of | :57:17. | :57:22. | |
all eligible families do not receive it because they do not know about | :57:23. | :57:27. | |
it. And the church of England trying to have its cake and eat it by | :57:28. | :57:33. | |
accepting same`sex marriage for its members but not for its polhce `` | :57:34. | :57:39. | |
priests. Is the church really serious about having this open and | :57:40. | :57:46. | |
honest debate? And will be be a vote to overturn the hunting ban or not? | :57:47. | :57:57. | |
It has come at an appropriate time. Let's look at the issue of | :57:58. | :58:02. | |
overturning the hunting ban. What do you make of it? The governmdnt are | :58:03. | :58:09. | |
all over the place, they do not know if they want to appeal to the core | :58:10. | :58:15. | |
vote or UKIP voters. This is indicative of it. My constituents | :58:16. | :58:28. | |
are clear they do not want ht. It was announced that there cotld still | :58:29. | :58:35. | |
be a vote in this Parliament. Cameron said a few days earlier it | :58:36. | :58:43. | |
was unlikely. Two separate hssues. Welsh farmers had a report `bout | :58:44. | :58:51. | |
predation on lambs and they wanted to use more dogs to flush foxes out | :58:52. | :58:58. | |
to guns. There is no agreemdnt between the parties so therd will be | :58:59. | :59:03. | |
no change on that but on thd issue of whether there is a vote to | :59:04. | :59:09. | |
overturn the whole band, th`t is in the coalition agreement. It is | :59:10. | :59:12. | |
something that business man`gers and those that the top of the coalition | :59:13. | :59:19. | |
will decide. There is a big range of opinions between those who would be | :59:20. | :59:23. | |
in favour of keeping the ban and those who want to overturn ht. I | :59:24. | :59:29. | |
have to stop you there. That is the end of the programme. Now b`ck to | :59:30. | :59:32. | |
boundaries. Sorry, run out of time. Thanks very much indeed. Andrew, | :59:33. | :59:35. | |
Thanks very much indeed. Andrew back to you. | :59:36. | :59:42. | |
Now let's get more from our political panel. If the BNP | :59:43. | :59:53. | |
finished? They were never spectacularly successful to begin | :59:54. | :59:55. | |
with but one of my childhood memories was a huge fuss in London | :59:56. | :59:58. | |
about the fact that they won a few council seat on the Isle of dogs | :59:59. | :00:02. | |
back in 1993. That was enough to cause a panic. As if they are | :00:03. | :00:05. | |
falling from a great tit and I think the big difference with the National | :00:06. | :00:09. | |
front in France is that they are building on decades of successful | :00:10. | :00:12. | |
that they finished second in the presence of elections in 2002, I | :00:13. | :00:17. | |
think. And, even in the 60s, they were versions of their politics So | :00:18. | :00:22. | |
they are building on a lot whereas the BNP are working with incredibly | :00:23. | :00:31. | |
few raw materials in this country. It is interesting that the BNP does | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
seem to be in decline in terms of its membership and financially, but | :00:36. | :00:42. | |
in France, the far right party, not as far right as the BNP, but pretty | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
far right, will probably do well in the second round of the French local | :00:47. | :00:53. | |
elections. You could say the same about Golden Dawn in Greece. Parties | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
prosper when the picture is pre-rolled for them. If mainstream | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
parties talk endlessly about immigration, saying you cannot get a | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
council house because it has gone to an immigrant instead of saying it is | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
because there are not enough council houses, that creates the conditions | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
in which the far right can thrive. We are lucky that all the members of | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
the BNP fell out with each other. As extreme members of the far right and | :01:19. | :01:25. | |
left do. You can see that with the comedian in France, he has got a lot | :01:26. | :01:30. | |
of support from people on the left as well. I asked Simon Derby was | :01:31. | :01:38. | |
here victim of a pincer movement that UKIP were taken away voters and | :01:39. | :01:46. | |
EDL has captured the Street protest. Yes, and Giles still not mention | :01:47. | :01:53. | |
that the Labour Party has got its act together. They got the act | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
together in Dagenham. Margaret Hodge and Jon Cruddas did a very good job. | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
I think UKIP would say, not a racist party but they are picking up votes | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
from people who would once have voted BNP. But it is interesting the | :02:09. | :02:11. | |
difference between Britain and France. Why is it that the Front | :02:12. | :02:18. | |
Nationale came second in 2002 when they are not far right? I think they | :02:19. | :02:27. | |
were on a five-year cycle because the next election was 2007. 200 | :02:28. | :02:33. | |
they came second when Jean-Marie Le Pen came second. They are not as far | :02:34. | :02:47. | |
right as the BNP. Marine has put them -- cleaned them up a bit. | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
Diplomatically there is a much harder vote which spreads further | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
across the electorate in France than there is in this country. This is a | :02:56. | :03:08. | |
much more tolerant country. If Marine Le Pen does well today, she | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
will not win that many because the centre-right and centre-left will | :03:15. | :03:17. | |
always gang up against terror in the second round, but it sets the tone | :03:18. | :03:24. | |
for the European elections. It does and for the next French presidential | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
election as well. I think what she's doing masterfully is combining a far | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
right politics with what you might call a far left economic politics. | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
She's not just picking up votes from xenophobes, she is picking up votes | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
from who feel victimised from globalisation. They are people who | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
would be voting for socialists but are put off by the current | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
president. That is what I do not think the British far right parties | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
have been able to do. You sort Simon Derby try to tell you that the BNP | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
are not far right party. I think he was going to say if you look at | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
issues of protectionism, standing up against globalisation, they are | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
quite statist. That is where the phrase National Socialist comes | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
from. That is why a little bit of electoral success is often a killer | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
for far right parties. They get a few council seats and then they are | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
rubbish. They are not getting people's bins collected so they | :04:25. | :04:27. | |
become part of the system that people were voting against in the | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
first place. Lets go on to the Labour Party. If you are a Labour | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
Party supporter and you want to be cheered up, you pick up the Sunday | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
Times where you see a poll where the leader is up to seven points. If you | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
are Tory Lib Dem and you want to be cheered up, you pick up the | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
Observer, the left-wing paper, where the Labour leader is still 1%. I | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
have read in the paper that there is quite a lot of of the record | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
briefings going on at the top of the Labour Party. Give us a sense of the | :05:00. | :05:05. | |
mood. Clearly, they are unsettled. One pol looks OK but there has been | :05:06. | :05:12. | |
a run of polls where there is a lead over the Tories which is closing. | :05:13. | :05:19. | |
There are worrying number of people who are what are called the 35s and | :05:20. | :05:26. | |
they are people who thought all the Labour Party needs to do is sit | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
still because there are a number of Liberal Democrat voters who hate the | :05:31. | :05:33. | |
coalition. Because the Conservatives did not get through the boundary | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
changes they needed to win, we can sit tight and it will all be fine. | :05:40. | :05:42. | |
What a few wise old heads are concerned about is they feel this | :05:43. | :05:49. | |
has a feel of 1987 about it when the Labour Party was united. They had a | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
very good leader. The leader was impressive, the party was united and | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
then what happened? They met the British people and an election. The | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
British people said, terribly sorry, you are not occupying the party | :06:04. | :06:06. | |
political territory where we will vote for you. There are some people | :06:07. | :06:12. | |
from the Blair era who say it feels a bit complacent and there may be a | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
bit of a shock when they meet the voters. We talk about people being | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
unsettled but Ed Miliband is not unsettled. His defining | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
characteristic is you might call it steadiness or you might call it a | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
lack of agility. He could not respond to the pension stuff in the | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
budget which was thrown at him. But he's very good at separating the | :06:35. | :06:37. | |
signal from the noise. They may think this will all change in me. | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
The Tories may be on the back foot after the European elections. He has | :06:42. | :06:47. | |
the ability to set the political weather. He did it with the price | :06:48. | :06:53. | |
freeze. There is no doubt that Mr Davey would not be referring these | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
energy companies to the competition authorities if it had not been for | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
that speech by the Labour leader. And we read today he has come up | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
with another policy which will be attention grabbing to cut student | :07:05. | :07:11. | |
tuition fees. It is easy to forget that before he announced the price | :07:12. | :07:14. | |
freeze he was in as much vertical trouble as he is now. I think the | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
Labour poll lead will expand up to five or 6% by the summer, assuming | :07:20. | :07:26. | |
the Tories do badly. The question is, is five or 6% enough? Nick | :07:27. | :07:33. | |
through the analogy with 1987. This reminds me of the Conservatives in | :07:34. | :07:39. | |
2009/10. You have a steadily sinking poll lead, differences in what | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
campaign they should be running and personal animosity behind the | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
scenes. It led to them throwing away an election which seemed to be | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
winnable. There is an important difference with the 1980s which was | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
because you did not know when the election would be. Will it be in 87 | :07:58. | :08:03. | |
or 88? They do not need to make up their mind until next year. What | :08:04. | :08:06. | |
they are telling the pollsters now, we do not like this government | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
because of course, you do not like the government. But next January or | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
February they will be making up their minds. Is there a lot of | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
animosity among the leading Labour figures behind-the-scenes? It must | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
be personal or tactical because there are not big ideological | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
differences between them, is there? Yes and no. What is striking is how | :08:29. | :08:34. | |
little support Miliband gets from the shadow cabinet. He does not have | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
outriders. That has been a continuous theme. Said he feels he | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
is on his own? That they feel they do not get support from him. There | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
was a column by Jenni Russell saying he is distant and detached. And | :08:50. | :08:55. | |
Andrew Walmsley touched on this in the Observer. One of the divisions | :08:56. | :09:03. | |
is Ed versus Ed. There is a terrible structural problem between those | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
two. It is a real problem. Ed Miliband believes Ed Balls has not | :09:09. | :09:11. | |
done enough to get economic red ability. Ed Balls believes Ed | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
Miliband is making airy fairy speeches and it will not cut with | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
the electorate. Neither Mr Cameron nor Mr Miller band took part in the | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
debate which happened earlier this week between the Lib Dems and UKIP. | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
We have got another one coming up on the BBC on Wednesday night. Let s | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
remind ourselves of what happened in last week's debate. | :09:35. | :09:42. | |
I will ask Nick to open the batting. We are better off in Europe... | :09:43. | :09:50. | |
Frankly not working any more. A referendum on Europe. I agree with | :09:51. | :09:57. | |
you. I agree with you. If you can read the small print. Pull up the | :09:58. | :10:06. | |
drawbridge, pool drawbridge up. . We have 485 million people... It is | :10:07. | :10:12. | |
simply not true! Not true. Not true. Not true. Identical with Nick. I | :10:13. | :10:19. | |
don't agree with Nick. Based on facts, facts, the facts, facts, the | :10:20. | :10:25. | |
facts... Thank God we did not listen to you. The food is getting better | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
here. Jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs. You have never had a proper job. Great | :10:32. | :10:41. | |
not little England. Good night. I think it is seven o'clock BBC Two. | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
Helen, what was the outcome of that and how do we mark our card for this | :10:47. | :10:52. | |
week? It was not a great time for pundits. Everybody called the debate | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
for Nick and then they said actually, we think it has gone the | :10:57. | :11:03. | |
other way. Consensus emerged later on that Nick Clegg made a difficult | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
argument. I think the most important thing Nigel Farage said was he | :11:09. | :11:11. | |
distinguished out the immigration policy by saying we're not just | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
closing day over, we want people to come, we just do not want mass EU | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
immigration. That is an important thing for him to say to get away | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
from the echoes of the far right. I suspect Nick Clegg will not ask us | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
to read the small print. That was 11 turn he took. It compounded his | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
reputation for being sneaky. I slightly disagree about the pundits. | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
I say this as someone who thought far it would win. -- Nigel Farage | :11:40. | :11:46. | |
would win. The fact that the public disagree with you and the public | :11:47. | :11:49. | |
favoured Nigel Farage does not mean the public were wrong. The question | :11:50. | :11:58. | |
is, who is going to tune in for the second one? What is the answer to | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
that? Phil Collins argument is a man who is on 8% is fantastic. It is a | :12:05. | :12:10. | |
binary choice in this debate. Clearly they need to brush up on | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
opposite areas. Nigel Farage needs to brush up on facts and Nick Clegg | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
needs to brush up on the motions because he did not connect very | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
well. Where Nick Clegg may go after Nigel Farage is when the -- when he | :12:23. | :12:28. | |
said the EU has blood on its hands with Ukraine. He then came back to | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
talk about the vanity of EU foreign policy and said European Union had | :12:34. | :12:35. | |
made what was going on in Syria worse. It is one thing to say I do | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
not think the UK should be part of the joint European foreign policy, | :12:42. | :12:44. | |
it is part of another thing to say that Europe which will act with or | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
without the UK is responsible for blood on the streets of Kiev and | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
also responsible for exacerbating the Civil War in Syria. Maybe an | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
hour is too long for Nigel Farage's shtick? That may be the case but | :12:58. | :13:04. | |
Nick Clegg has precedence. He does that show and he has had to deal | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
with the worst thing with dealing with what is thrown at him so he has | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
honed his view consistently. We will see what happens in part two. | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
That's all for this week. The Daily Politics is on BBC Two at lunchtime | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
every day this week. I'll be here next week at the usual time of 1 | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
o'clock. Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics. | :13:26. | :13:32. |