30/03/2014 Sunday Politics South West


30/03/2014

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Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:36.:00:41.

Can Ed Davey keep the lights on? Can he ever deliver cheaper power? Or

:00:42.:00:45.

the investment our energy market badly needs? We'll be asking the

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Energy Secretary. Why has the anti-independence Better

:00:50.:00:52.

Together campaign suddenly got the jitters? We'll be quizzing Scottish

:00:53.:00:58.

Secretary Alistair Carmichael. And whatever happened to the BNP?

:00:59.:01:00.

In the South West: A possible They could be heading for

:01:01.:01:06.

In the South West: A possible setback for the policing of

:01:07.:01:09.

alcohol`related crimes. And anger about the Government campaign

:01:10.:01:10.

against full fat cheese. In London, changes to the authority

:01:11.:01:15.

which runs the capital's Fire Service. The Mayor has a political

:01:16.:01:18.

move designed to silence his critics.

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And with me, as always, the most useless political panel in the

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business, who we're contractually obliged to insult on a weekly basis.

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But not today, because they are our chosen ones. They are the brightest

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and the best, we've even hired a plane to prove it: Helen Lewis,

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Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

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Right, left and centre of the Westminster Establishment have been

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unanimous in saying there would be no chance of monetary union with the

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rest of the UK for an independent Scotland. Then an unnamed minister

:01:58.:02:02.

spoke to our Nick saying that wasn't necessarily so, and that made the

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Guardian's front page. The SNP were delighted and the anti-independence

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campaign rushed to limit the damage. The faux pas has come at a time when

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the Better Together side was already beginning to worry that things were

:02:16.:02:20.

going the Nationalists' way. Let's speak to a leading light in that

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campaign, Scottish Secretary Alistair Carmichael, who's in

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Aberdeen at the Scottish Liberal Democrat spring conference.

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Alistair Carmichael, why is there a sense of crisis now engulfing the no

:02:37.:02:42.

campaign? I think that is something of an overstatement. What you have

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got is, I am getting my own voice played back in my ear. What you have

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got here is one story from an unnamed source, a minister who we

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are told, we do not know for certain, who has speculated on the

:03:02.:03:05.

possibility of a currency union actually happening. I do not think

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that is helpful but it is not any big deal. You have to measure it

:03:10.:03:13.

against what we have got publicly named on the record. We have got a

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detailed intervention of the Governor of the Bank of England

:03:17.:03:20.

Mark Carney, outlining all the reasons why a currency union would

:03:21.:03:24.

not be a good idea. And then you have got independent advice from the

:03:25.:03:28.

permanent Secretary of the Treasury himself saying actually, this is

:03:29.:03:32.

such a bad idea, that I would never advise a chancellor to go ahead with

:03:33.:03:36.

it. You set one against the other and you see that pretty much the

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force of argument is very much against those of us who want to

:03:43.:03:46.

remain in the United Kingdom. All the minister was saying is come the

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day, if Westminster is negotiating with a new independent Scotland a

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deal is to be done, Faslane where the nuclear deterrent is, there is

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nowhere else in the UK to put that is, certainly not for the next 0

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years, a deal would be done, the nuclear weapons would stay in

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Faslane and Scotland would get a monetary union with the rest of the

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UK. That is perfectly plausible isn't it? No, I'm sorry, it is

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simply not plausible. The economy is more important than anything else.

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What you have had here is very clear advice from the treasury officials

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saying it is not in the economic best interests of the people of

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England Wales, Northern Ireland any more than it is in the interests of

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people in Scotland. Where do you put the nukes? The outcome will not

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change. Where do you put the nukes when the Nationalists kick you out?

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I do not believe that will be a problem because I do not believe

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Scotland will vote for independence. But you might be asking the Scottish

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Nationalists, who are apparently promoting this, are they then not

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sincere when they say they want to remove nuclear weapons from

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Scotland? It seems to be a curious mixed message. As you know, I have

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not got the Nationalists, I have got you, so let me ask you the

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questions. You are widely seen as running a campaign which is too

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negative. The Nationalists are narrowing the gap in the poll found

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you are squabbling among yourselves. This campaign is going pear shaped,

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isn't it? No, let's deal with the polls. All the polls show that the

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people of Scotland want to stay as part of the United Kingdom. Yes

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there were a couple of polls last week that said the gap was narrowing

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a little. The most recent poll of all, the poll on Wednesday which

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actually polled people's voting intentions on the question come

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September showed that only 28% of people in Scotland were prepared to

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say they were voting yes, as opposed to the 42% who were on our side of

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the argument saying they wish to remain part of the UK. That poll

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said women were skewing towards a yes vote and it showed that the

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don't knows were beginning to skew towards a yes vote. That is why you

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yourself wrote this morning that if your campaign does not get its act

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together, you would be sleepwalking into a split to quote yourself. No,

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to quote myself I said it was not impossible that the Nationalists

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could win that. That is absolutely the case. The biggest danger for the

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United Kingdom camp in this whole argument is people will look at the

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polls. They show us with a healthy lead consistently. As a consequence,

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they think this will not happen It can happen. I have got to tell

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everybody that it could, not least because the Nationalists have an

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enormous advantage in terms of the amount of money they have at their

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disposal to buy momentum. They will be advertising in cinemas, in

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football matches and on social media. We have got to realise what

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is coming and as a consequence, we have got to get our arguments in

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place and our campaign as sharp as theirs. Thank you for joining us.

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Nick, this unnamed minister who gave you the story, did he or she know

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what they were doing? I do not think they were sitting there wanting to

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blast this out there, because the agreed government position was there

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will not be a currency union, if there is a vote for independence.

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But what I was managing to get hold of whether thoughts that are in the

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deeper recesses of people's minds, when they are looking at the polls

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which have been narrowing, or there was Alistair Carmichael quite

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rightly says, the pro-UK vote is still ahead. People are looking down

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the line, what would happen after the 18th of September this year not

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just the next day but the next year, in those very lengthy

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negotiations that would take place, when there would be a lot of moving

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places on the table. You talked about Faslane, what would happen

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then and that is what I managed to get hold of, that there are thoughts

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about all those pieces that would be on the table. It is not surprising

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that some in Westminster think that. Let's take the Shadow

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Chancellor Danny Alexander at his word, they do not want a monetary

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union. But if they are faced with giving the Scots a monetary union in

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a post-independent Scotland, or having to remove the nuclear

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submarines from Faslane, where they have nowhere else to put them,

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probably except North America, there is a deal to be done. I think

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whatever minister gave Nick his story is probably onto something. If

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the Scots vote for independence of course a deal will be done about the

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currency because it is not in London's interests to have a

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rancorous relationship with Edinburgh. Even if the deal is not

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done, how does one country stop another country using its. That is

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different. All London can really do is prevent Scottish intervention on

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the monetary policy committee. The interest rate would be set without

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any regard to the Scottish interest. Even that is only a fatal problem if

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the Scottish economy becomes so out of sync with the UK economy. Except

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it is a problem for Scotland's financial system because if you go

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down that route there is no means of injecting liquidity into the

:09:50.:09:52.

financial system in the financial crisis. That is why they would

:09:53.:09:56.

rather have a monetary union. Is it not remarkable to hear the Secretary

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of State for Scotland here that the Nationalists are spending too much

:10:01.:10:03.

money, when he represents a campaign which brings together all the major

:10:04.:10:06.

parties in the UK and all the resources of the UK and he is

:10:07.:10:11.

bleating about the Nationalists having more to spend? I did think

:10:12.:10:14.

that was a funny line and it was in the Observer. It lays into Alex

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Salmond's plucky upstart idea that he's taking on this big

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establishment. I thought it was a bizarre open goal, I am losing my

:10:24.:10:30.

football metaphors, forgive me. The polls are so in favour of a no

:10:31.:10:38.

vote. But the trend has been going their way. We have six months left

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which is not enough to close the gap. They always tell you Alex

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Salmond is a strong finisher. The plucky upstarts have this funding

:10:47.:10:53.

from a millionaire. The Better Together campaign are being

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incredibly cautious about where they get their money from. They do not

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want to go to the City of London Police say, give us a couple of

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million. Being Energy Secretary used to be a

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bit of a dawdle, especially when North Sea oil was flowing. Now it's

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very much a hot potato as Ed Davey has been finding out the hard way.

:11:11.:11:18.

High household energy bills have been top of his inbox. The big six

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energy companies account for 95 of the market. Off Johnson -- Ofgem

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said there had been possible tacit coordination in the timing of price

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rises and ordered an investigation by the competition and markets

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authorities which will look at whether the big six should be broken

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up. Where does that leave investment? The boss of Centrica

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made the point that you would not spend money building an extension if

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you knew in two years time your home might be bulldozed. The spare

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margin, that is what is left in the generating system to cope with a

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surge in demand on a cold winter's night, is due to drop to

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historically low levels in 2016 according to Ofgem. Normally at

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around 15%, capacity could drop to 2% after the next election and that

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could lead to a surge in the sale of candles. Now where is that light

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switch? Energy Secretary Ed Davey, joins me

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now. Oh, we have found the light switch! The gap between a peak

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winter demand and generating capacity could possibly reach 2

:12:37.:12:41.

next winter or the winter after We will keep the lights on, that is for

:12:42.:12:47.

clear. When we came to power, energy investment had been relatively low.

:12:48.:12:50.

The Labour Party had failed to deal with the energy deficit. From day

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one we have been pushing up massively. Investment has been

:12:55.:13:02.

billion a year. Last year was a record. Spare capacity is now

:13:03.:13:06.

heading to 2%. Why are you allowing it to get that no? Because we have

:13:07.:13:11.

been increasing investment massively, last was a record level,

:13:12.:13:16.

we will be able to keep the lights on. Some of the figures you are

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showing suggests we are not doing anything. We have not only done

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enough in our last three years, we have put in measures to stimulate

:13:25.:13:30.

huge amounts of extra investment. We have the healthiest pipeline

:13:31.:13:33.

investment in our history. We will come onto investment in a minute.

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None of that change is the fact that we will be close to 2% next winter

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or the winter after that. We have one major power station shut down,

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or a cold winter away from having major problems with energy supply.

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It is still 2%. Let me explain. The figures assume we are not doing

:13:58.:14:01.

anything but we are doing something. Look at the National Grid. They are

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able to bring in energy from interconnector is because we are

:14:07.:14:10.

connected up to Europe. They are able to create a reserve so if we

:14:11.:14:16.

get to problems, they will have a mothballed plant they can bring on.

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You have not agreed with anybody on that. The decision was taken last

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July. But no supplier has agreed to under mothball its plant. We would

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not expect them to do that yet. Our plan is in place. On time, on

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schedule, as we already thought it would be. But you have not got a

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single agreement with a power supply who has mothballed plant to on the

:14:45.:14:51.

ball it. We did not expect to. Our plan is in me National Grid will do

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an election to allow those plants to come on. There is a huge amount of

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interest. There are gigawatts of power that can come in to come on.

:15:02.:15:04.

There is a huge amount of interest. There are gigawatts of power that

:15:05.:15:08.

can come into that auction and we are not other measures we can take

:15:09.:15:12.

and that is just in the short term. We have a plan for the medium-term.

:15:13.:15:17.

We will be running the first auction for new capacity. The final decision

:15:18.:15:33.

will be taken and we have learned lessons from what they do in North

:15:34.:15:35.

America and other European countries so we can stay minute mothballed

:15:36.:15:38.

plants and new plants to be built. I am absolutely clear there is not a

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problem. You only build 9000 megawatts of new capacity from

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2011-13. You have closed almost 22,000 megawatts. Why would you be

:15:55.:15:57.

so cavalier with a nation's power supply? The last Government was

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cavalier because we knew those figures are happening because we've

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known for a long time a lot of power plants were coming to the end of

:16:06.:16:09.

their life, coal power plants, nuclear power plants, and we had to

:16:10.:16:12.

increase the rate of investment but we... That shows clearly you are

:16:13.:16:20.

closing twice as much, you have to date, closed twice as much as you

:16:21.:16:23.

have opened, hence the lack of spare capacity. We knew a lot of them are

:16:24.:16:27.

coming back for the last Labour Government knew. We have increased

:16:28.:16:31.

the new so that's increasing significantly, far faster than under

:16:32.:16:34.

the last Government but also remember, you were very wrong at the

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beginning of your clip, margins at 15% are very own usual. They are

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historically high. The average margin was 25%. That was wasting a

:16:47.:16:51.

huge amount of money. But since privatisation, we've had margins

:16:52.:16:56.

between 5% and 10%. Normally, high margins historically, which is

:16:57.:17:02.

costly. Now we will have historically low margins. People

:17:03.:17:06.

have to pay for that, so we make sure the lights stay on, we have a

:17:07.:17:10.

short-term policy I have described to you, and medium-term policy and a

:17:11.:17:14.

long-term policy. The long-term policy comes huge investment between

:17:15.:17:15.

nuclear and optional, policy comes huge investment between

:17:16.:17:39.

on. Ofgem, Independent, says the chance of blackouts by 2016 has

:17:40.:17:47.

increased fourfold under your watch. What they say, if you read the

:17:48.:17:56.

report, if we did nothing, they would be problems. But we have been

:17:57.:17:59.

working with Ofgem. We have been working with National Grid, and we

:18:00.:18:04.

have agreed that there will be a reserve capacity which can come on

:18:05.:18:08.

if we get to the peak for the Best not just on the supply side but

:18:09.:18:14.

demand and into connectors. You talk about industry having to move to

:18:15.:18:18.

off-peak times. We say, they are prepared to that you paid for it,

:18:19.:18:22.

and it makes commercial sense for them, it's a sensible thing for the

:18:23.:18:26.

Wii will pay them to move to off-peak. You have huge diesel parks

:18:27.:18:30.

for the you talk as if that something new but it's been around

:18:31.:18:33.

for a long time for the 200 these contracts out there. We want to

:18:34.:18:39.

expand that. You have hundreds of diesel generators to click into

:18:40.:18:42.

haven't you? There's a whole range of generators. Diesel generation,

:18:43.:18:50.

dirty fuel. There's a of mothballed gas which can come. If you look at

:18:51.:18:55.

the increase of the independent generators, many companies, a range

:18:56.:19:05.

of power companies who are building a new power station and want to

:19:06.:19:10.

build new ones. This is a healthy situation. You say you made over 100

:19:11.:19:13.

billion new investment between now and the end of the decade to restore

:19:14.:19:17.

capacity and meet renewable targets. Now you have referred the

:19:18.:19:21.

Big Six to the competition commission, how much of that to

:19:22.:19:26.

expect to come from them? We will see what the market delivers. We

:19:27.:19:31.

have always expected independent generators to do a lot more than is

:19:32.:19:36.

happening in the past. How much from the Big Six? It's not for me to say

:19:37.:19:41.

it's going to be best from that company. The real interest is we

:19:42.:19:45.

have huge amounts of companies wanting to invest. If you look at

:19:46.:19:50.

independent analysis, they say Britain is one of the best places to

:19:51.:19:54.

invest in energy in the world. We are the worldly do in offshore

:19:55.:19:57.

wind, one of the best for renewables, one of the only

:19:58.:20:00.

countries getting nuclear power stations. Rather than the bleaker

:20:01.:20:05.

picture you're painting, the reverse is the case. We are seeing an

:20:06.:20:10.

investment renaissance. You say that. Let me give you some facts.

:20:11.:20:15.

Under this Government, only one gas plant has been under construction,

:20:16.:20:20.

only one started under your watch for the others were done under

:20:21.:20:23.

Labour. You have none in the pipeline. The Big Six has pulled

:20:24.:20:28.

back from further investment including new offshore wind

:20:29.:20:31.

investment and none of what you re talking about will come before 020

:20:32.:20:36.

anyway. That's simply not true. The balance reserves I've talked about,

:20:37.:20:40.

the reserve planned: Making sure the mothballed plant could come on, I

:20:41.:20:44.

capacity market incentivising new power, will happen way before 2 20,

:20:45.:20:51.

so that's not true. But doesn't answer the extra capacity. You have

:20:52.:20:54.

no answer between now and the end of this decade. We have three answers.

:20:55.:20:59.

Let me repeat them for you. I said permanent, not the short-term ones

:21:00.:21:04.

you are putting in place to try to do with spare capacity. We have a

:21:05.:21:08.

short-term plan, of course, that's very sensible. Medium-term plan

:21:09.:21:13.

auctioning for new power stations. That can lead to both mothballed

:21:14.:21:16.

plant and when you plant, permanent plant being built, and the long term

:21:17.:21:22.

plan, to stimulator long-term investment, some of which will be

:21:23.:21:26.

built and come online way before the end of the decade. I'm afraid, it's

:21:27.:21:30.

a far rosier picture than your painting. It's also far more

:21:31.:21:35.

expensive, too. Let's look at how you are replacing relatively cheap

:21:36.:21:38.

energy with much more expensive sources of energy. Wholesale prices

:21:39.:21:44.

is ?50 per megawatt. You have done a deal with EDF, nuclear, ?92 50. You

:21:45.:21:51.

have indexed it for 30 years at 2012 prices.

:21:52.:22:02.

All of that puts up our bills. First of all, the support of the low

:22:03.:22:11.

Carbon is just 4% on bills. What has been driving peoples bills over the

:22:12.:22:16.

last decade has been wholesale gas prices. No one knows what guys

:22:17.:22:19.

prices are going to be in the future -- gas prices. When you look at the

:22:20.:22:24.

Ukraine and other market indicators, many people are worried that by the

:22:25.:22:27.

time nuclear power stations come online for example, the price of gas

:22:28.:22:32.

could be significantly higher. You have indexed linked that for them by

:22:33.:22:35.

the time you get any power from this, it'll be up to ?125 per

:22:36.:22:41.

megawatt hour. The price of gas been going up far higher. Not recently.

:22:42.:22:50.

Despite Iran, Ukraine, Libya, not recently. The long-term forecast,

:22:51.:22:53.

Andrew, it's going to go higher but more importantly than that, this is

:22:54.:22:57.

an area we could disagree on but it's very important that power

:22:58.:23:01.

plants pay the cost of pollution. In those prizes, all of those prices

:23:02.:23:06.

except the wholesale out a steep price, you have those power stations

:23:07.:23:11.

paying the cost of air pollution. If gas and coal where paying the proper

:23:12.:23:15.

carbon price, you would see nuclear and renewables as competitive. It's

:23:16.:23:20.

very important that we ensure that power plants pay the cost of the

:23:21.:23:24.

pollution. When you were last on this programme to talk about this in

:23:25.:23:28.

May 2012, you said that the price of offshore wind was coming down fast.

:23:29.:23:34.

You told me it would be down by 30% in the next few years. That figure

:23:35.:23:39.

is 155, and for the deeper stuff, it's going to be ?165. That's the

:23:40.:23:45.

first year of a limit control framework which had it coming down.

:23:46.:23:53.

If you talk to many companies, Siemens had invested with their

:23:54.:23:58.

partners, ?310 million with two new factories. They are talking about

:23:59.:24:04.

lower prices because what they are saying to me is that, rather than

:24:05.:24:10.

the 30% cost reductions I talked about, I was wrong, they are

:24:11.:24:15.

targeting 40%. You said prices would come down 30% in two years for that

:24:16.:24:19.

that was 2012 and they have gone higher. I absolutely did not say

:24:20.:24:24.

that. Your exact quote was 30% in the next few years. Your exact few

:24:25.:24:28.

years. You said two years, I sell a few years. I haven't changed a

:24:29.:24:34.

single moment that you said two years, I said a few years. That s

:24:35.:24:38.

what we are projecting. They will come down. You have to invest in

:24:39.:24:43.

technology. Let me give you this example. When people invest in

:24:44.:24:46.

mobile phones to start off with they were expensive, and they were

:24:47.:24:55.

clunky and the costs were going down for the one final question. You put

:24:56.:25:00.

the Big Six into investigation because they made a 5% return on

:25:01.:25:04.

investment and you're done a deal with EDF, nuclear power, which will

:25:05.:25:10.

guarantee them a return of 10% 15% every year for 30 years. Doesn't

:25:11.:25:14.

that underline the shambles of your energy policy? You have mixed up two

:25:15.:25:19.

separate things. The 5% Ofgem are talking about is on the supply

:25:20.:25:23.

retail side. The percentage you quoted for EDF is in the wholesale

:25:24.:25:28.

side of two different markets. It's the same return. It's not. You are

:25:29.:25:32.

comparing apples and pears, dangerous thing to do. You have to

:25:33.:25:38.

do have a high return but in the retail market, with a 5% stake,

:25:39.:25:41.

there is less risk, says a low return. Ed Davey, I'm sorry we

:25:42.:25:49.

haven't got more time. Thank you. Have me back. We will. Whatever

:25:50.:25:54.

happened to the BNP? The far right party looked as if it was on the

:25:55.:25:58.

verge of a major breakthrough not so long ago. Now it seems to be going

:25:59.:26:02.

nowhere. In a moment we'll be speaking to the party's press

:26:03.:26:04.

officer, Simon Derby. But first here's Giles. His report contains

:26:05.:26:07.

some flash photography. For a moment in 2009 Nick Griffin and the BNP had

:26:08.:26:11.

a spring in their step, smiling at their success of winning two seats

:26:12.:26:14.

in the European Parliament. They already were the second largest

:26:15.:26:17.

party in a London council and had a London Assembly seat. Despite

:26:18.:26:21.

concerns from mainstream parties their vote was up. Our vote

:26:22.:26:32.

increased up to 943,000. Savouring success was brief that morning as

:26:33.:26:35.

anti-far right protestors invaded and egged the press conference and

:26:36.:26:38.

forced the BNP MEPs into a hasty retreat. What is more significant is

:26:39.:26:43.

that, in the years since, that retreat has been matched internally,

:26:44.:26:46.

electorally and in the minds of those who had given them that vote.

:26:47.:26:56.

For a number of years they were performing better than the UK

:26:57.:26:59.

Independence Party and other smaller parties like the Greens and respect.

:27:00.:27:02.

The problem for the BNP if they didn't make any inroads into other

:27:03.:27:06.

groups, they didn't go into the middle class, the young, they didn't

:27:07.:27:10.

go into women and ethnic minorities for obvious reasons. So the party

:27:11.:27:13.

was quickly handicapped from the outset. Not that you would have

:27:14.:27:19.

known that at the outset. In 20 6 in Barking and Dagenham, the party won

:27:20.:27:22.

12 council seats against a back drop of discontent with the ruling Labour

:27:23.:27:25.

council and Government and picking up on immigration and housing

:27:26.:27:34.

concerns in the borough. It's because of all the different

:27:35.:27:37.

nationality people moving in the area, they are taking over

:27:38.:27:41.

everything. My Nan and grandad lived there all their lives. I thought I

:27:42.:27:47.

would vote for BNP. Hopefully, yeah, they will get elected over here

:27:48.:27:53.

When I came to Barking, Dagenham and Redbridge in 2006, the BNP with a

:27:54.:27:57.

second largest party in one of the local councils. You can even find

:27:58.:28:02.

non-white people who voted BNP. Now they have no counsellors, and even

:28:03.:28:05.

though can when you talk to people, you will find among the older white

:28:06.:28:10.

working-class population concerned that the BNP claim to represent

:28:11.:28:14.

everyone says they are nowhere. So what happened to that about? On

:28:15.:28:21.

behalf of all the people in Britain, we in Barking have not just beaten,

:28:22.:28:26.

that we have smashed the attempt of extremist outsiders. The local

:28:27.:28:30.

Labour MP was as clear in 2010 as she is now. I always knew if we

:28:31.:28:38.

could manage to ensure that wasn't a single BNP councillor left on the

:28:39.:28:41.

council and I won my seat, it would stop the process of disintegration.

:28:42.:28:45.

But what beat the BNP here in 2 10 was a mobilisation of the Labour

:28:46.:28:48.

vote. And today it is not hard to find the same discontent over the

:28:49.:28:52.

same issues. It's just finding a new political home. A couple of years

:28:53.:29:00.

ago, I used to vote Labour. Obviously, they haven't done nothing

:29:01.:29:04.

around here as much now, with jobs and unemployment, and housing and

:29:05.:29:08.

stuff like that about, basically, BNP ain't around here no more. Now

:29:09.:29:12.

it's more about UKIP and I believe that these UKIP are saying are true.

:29:13.:29:17.

If I thought BNP would make the difference, I would vote but is not

:29:18.:29:22.

in the people behind them. They all get bandaged with the same brush.

:29:23.:29:26.

I'm going to vote UKIP because BNP didn't get anywhere. What they say

:29:27.:29:30.

in UKIP, with a bit of luck, they will get somewhere. It's not racist

:29:31.:29:34.

but it's just that our kids haven't got jobs. Nick Griffin's dislike of

:29:35.:29:39.

UKIP is mutual but his once fellow MEP Andrew Brons who's now left the

:29:40.:29:42.

party issued a statement to this programme saying BNP failure is

:29:43.:29:51.

closer to home post 2010. It was after that election discontent arose

:29:52.:29:53.

amongst sections of the membership. Those members who left or were

:29:54.:30:10.

thrown out by Nick Griffin had already felt let down by his

:30:11.:30:14.

appearance on Question Time. It was a national platform for the BNP

:30:15.:30:17.

something they felt they had the right to through electoral success.

:30:18.:30:27.

This was no big breakthrough moment for Griffin, unlike it was for John

:30:28.:30:33.

Marina pen when he appeared on national television in France. He

:30:34.:30:37.

went on to mobilise a national force. Despite there being some

:30:38.:30:40.

voters tuned to their message, for the BNP, becoming such a force here

:30:41.:30:44.

has never looked quite so difficult. And Simon Derby from the BNP joins

:30:45.:30:52.

me now. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It was not long ago you

:30:53.:30:56.

had 55 councillors up and down the land, you now have two. You are on

:30:57.:31:02.

the brink of extinction. That is not true. I have watched the film. It is

:31:03.:31:08.

very negative as I would expect The party has faced a few problems. The

:31:09.:31:13.

main thing to bear in mind is that the issues, the problems the country

:31:14.:31:19.

faces have gone away. We won nearly a million votes in the European

:31:20.:31:24.

elections. We brought that mandate to the establishment and we were

:31:25.:31:34.

denied. Let's face it, we would -- were denied any opportunity to take

:31:35.:31:39.

place in the political apparatus. You have been destroyed by a pincer

:31:40.:31:44.

movement. UKIP has taken away or more respectable voters and the EDL

:31:45.:31:52.

is better at anti-Muslim protests and street thuggery. The EDL is not

:31:53.:31:58.

a political party. I take your point about UKIP. The power structure took

:31:59.:32:02.

a look at us and so we were a threat to power. We were not making this

:32:03.:32:08.

stuff up, we meant it and they have co-opted our message. This shameless

:32:09.:32:13.

promotion of UKIP, you have evenly had him presenting the weather on

:32:14.:32:16.

this programme. That is unbelievable. That was a joke.

:32:17.:32:22.

Across Europe, in France, your sister party the National front will

:32:23.:32:27.

probably do very well. You can see the rise of the far right across

:32:28.:32:32.

Western Europe so why are you in decline? We are not far right, I

:32:33.:32:38.

reject that label. How would you describe yourselves nationalists and

:32:39.:32:56.

Patriots. Why are you in decline and other similar parties to yours are

:32:57.:33:01.

on the rise? You mentioned Barking and it is very interesting because I

:33:02.:33:05.

was involved in that campaign. What Margaret Hodge and her Labour Party

:33:06.:33:10.

did, they replaced the white indigenous population in Barking and

:33:11.:33:14.

Dagenham with Africans, that is how they won that election. For that was

:33:15.:33:17.

true, you would be doing well elsewhere. You have now got a leader

:33:18.:33:23.

who is declared bankrupt and your party is heading for bankruptcy

:33:24.:33:29.

No, it is not. It is over. You would like that. What I would like is

:33:30.:33:35.

irrelevant. Your membership is in deep decline. All parties have highs

:33:36.:33:41.

and lows. In 2009 they said it is no way you will win any seats in the

:33:42.:33:46.

European election. We did. And then you lost them. Parties win and lose

:33:47.:33:54.

seats. The Lib Dems will be annihilated. You deny you are far

:33:55.:34:00.

right. People used to say the BNP were neo-Nazis. Then Nick Griffin

:34:01.:34:11.

appeared with Golden Dawn. They are not neo-Nazis, they are Nazis. It is

:34:12.:34:16.

part and parcel of being in politics. You have to appear with

:34:17.:34:23.

them? Of course we do, we have to speak to ordinary people. I am

:34:24.:34:27.

perfectly happy speaking to you at the BBC, the BBC have a terrible

:34:28.:34:32.

reputation but I am happy to be here. Mr Griffin has asked me, when

:34:33.:34:36.

will the BBC apologised for trying to put him in prison twice, merely

:34:37.:34:43.

for exposing a Muslim scandal. Why can't Nick Griffin appear on TV and

:34:44.:34:51.

self? He would not appear. He was in Syria. He literally flew out to

:34:52.:34:56.

Damascus and prevented a war. We decided we would not interfere in

:34:57.:35:02.

Syria. The BBC never covered that. Please do not make out we are just

:35:03.:35:06.

an ordinary political party you cover like everybody else. It is

:35:07.:35:13.

completely different. All the signs are, membership, performance at the

:35:14.:35:17.

polls, performance at elections, the problem with your leadership is you

:35:18.:35:22.

are now going the way of the National front, heading for

:35:23.:35:26.

oblivion. As I said to you before, that may be the case, if all the

:35:27.:35:31.

problems we had not highlighted and how we got a huge vote so many years

:35:32.:35:36.

ago, six years ago now, five years ago, in 2009, if they were not

:35:37.:35:41.

around. These things are only going to get worse. We are looking at a

:35:42.:35:45.

prototype Islamic republic that is going to be set up in this country.

:35:46.:35:49.

That will lead to huge problems. Only the British National Party are

:35:50.:35:53.

prepared to say that and deal with it. Word leaked out that I was doing

:35:54.:35:58.

this interview with you before the weekend. Isn't it a sign of how

:35:59.:36:03.

irrelevant you now are that not a single person has turned up at New

:36:04.:36:08.

Broadcasting House this morning to protest? Used to be hundreds would

:36:09.:36:13.

turn up when we said the BNP were on. That is the left for you, they

:36:14.:36:17.

put the clocks forward and they could not be bothered to get out of

:36:18.:36:21.

bed. I think they are still in bed. Thank you.

:36:22.:36:24.

You're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in

:36:25.:36:27.

Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in

:36:28.:36:31.

20 minutes, the Hello, I'm Lucie Fisher. Coling up

:36:32.:36:46.

on the Sunday Politics in the South West: Full fat cheese and the new

:36:47.:36:50.

government campaign against it which is making local producers angry And

:36:51.:36:56.

for the next 20 minutes, I'l joined by the Labour MP Alison Seabeck and

:36:57.:36:59.

Lib Dem DEFRA Minister Dan Rogerson, welcome both of you to the

:37:00.:37:03.

programme. The High Speed R`il project was back on the agenda at

:37:04.:37:07.

Westminster this week and sdveral of our MPs jumped on the chancd to

:37:08.:37:10.

argue for more investment in the South West. My right honour`ble

:37:11.:37:22.

friend knows that in the sotth west we don't speak about High Speed

:37:23.:37:28.

Rail, other focuses on real in the first place, getting Beacon elected

:37:29.:37:32.

to London after the winter storms. At the same time as spending all of

:37:33.:37:38.

this money can he sure as there will be sufficient to invest in `n

:37:39.:37:42.

alternative route as soon as it has been identified by Network Rail

:37:43.:37:46.

Well, the Transport Secretary didn't make the commitment to fundhng an

:37:47.:37:49.

alternative line which Gary Streeter had asked for, but he did promise

:37:50.:37:53.

the old line was on course to re`open on the 4th of April. There

:37:54.:37:58.

is a risk here that once thhs line reopens we will all be forgotten

:37:59.:38:03.

about down here, the line rdopen and we can move on? Network Rail have to

:38:04.:38:09.

look at all the evidence put in front of them. We'll will come much

:38:10.:38:19.

closer to my constituency. H would be in favour of that. I am hn favour

:38:20.:38:25.

of the ideas we need to makd that evidence `based. You are

:38:26.:38:35.

seeing`macro a line past and, if all the MPs in the south`west are not

:38:36.:38:39.

agreeing it is not a good position to start from. You would like one

:38:40.:38:44.

somewhere else? You would expect we need the strong route to thd

:38:45.:38:50.

reconnected. See defences that will protect it. There could be `ny other

:38:51.:38:57.

form of accident or landslip, if there is only one line into a region

:38:58.:39:03.

that is the problem. To havd the second line look at the comlunities

:39:04.:39:07.

that do not have any real and then we can meet several objectives. A as

:39:08.:39:14.

in the hundreds of millions of pounds, RB being realistic? At the

:39:15.:39:22.

moment we have an East Coast rail line query you can travel at 92 mph

:39:23.:39:29.

on average. In the South waste it is down to 60 mph. We need the economic

:39:30.:39:37.

cases there for a line that will allow faster and more frequdnt and

:39:38.:39:42.

reliable services. We need improvement to the signalling which

:39:43.:39:46.

will make a significant difference and the diversionary route. We are

:39:47.:39:51.

running out of time on the subject but I wanted to ask why we could not

:39:52.:39:56.

get money from Europe to help build this line, the busy port th`t can go

:39:57.:40:02.

to help after some kind of natural disaster? The floods? There is a

:40:03.:40:15.

pot. Was this not our chancd? The government can access funds from

:40:16.:40:20.

outside the country or we c`n invest the money domestically. The issue is

:40:21.:40:24.

if we have the route that m`kes sense economically then we can find

:40:25.:40:30.

the money to do it. I spoke to another south`west MP who w`s

:40:31.:40:36.

instrumental in 2007 on bringing money from Europe and she thinks you

:40:37.:40:42.

should have done this. Given the money we get back to the rebate any

:40:43.:40:47.

money we got from Europe to deal with a flooding aftermath would have

:40:48.:40:54.

lost some of the rebate. But in the south`west it might have bedn worth

:40:55.:41:00.

it? Once all the various gr`ndson budgets have been announced... That

:41:01.:41:09.

is all out of our report. `` grants and budgets. I think she has the

:41:10.:41:16.

case. I am disappointed that the government have decided thex think

:41:17.:41:21.

they would be robbing Peter to pay Paul. I think we need more

:41:22.:41:25.

information on why we have not on with this option. OK, we will move

:41:26.:41:32.

on. Police efforts to bring down the number of violent crimes fudlled by

:41:33.:41:35.

alcohol abuse may have suffdred a set`back this week. Plymouth City

:41:36.:41:38.

Council has been deciding on a new licensing policy, and while

:41:39.:41:40.

councillors are making it more difficult for off`licenses to open

:41:41.:41:43.

where street drinking is a problem, they failed to agree on plans to

:41:44.:41:47.

make bars pay towards the costs of policing the streets at night. Jenny

:41:48.:41:55.

Kumah reports. Brian has bedn sober for more than 20 years but `t his

:41:56.:42:01.

lowest point he was drinking to bottles of vodka per day. I got the

:42:02.:42:11.

post, I was bankrupt in my business. Send me to prison, make me violent.

:42:12.:42:17.

All the things you do not w`nt to be, alcohol turned me into that

:42:18.:42:23.

person. He had to take conscious steps to avoid temptation. H would

:42:24.:42:31.

go to a shop that did not h`ve an off`licence. Anything to kedp me

:42:32.:42:35.

away from it especially in the early times. There were plans to stop

:42:36.:42:46.

shops selling drink near alcohol recovery programmes. The next door

:42:47.:42:55.

to a discount alcohol store and several supermarkets has its

:42:56.:43:00.

challenges. People come herd to get our help, the fact there is easier

:43:01.:43:05.

access to alcohol is the issue we are really dealing with. Th`t is

:43:06.:43:09.

what the new policy is tendhng to address. Feedback from charhties

:43:10.:43:16.

like this one has also highlighted the issue of street drinking in

:43:17.:43:23.

parts of Plymouth. Apart from the illicit side of it it is re`lly just

:43:24.:43:28.

anti`social. People do not like it at all. It can be really off`putting

:43:29.:43:34.

for people. Some retailers `re helping to tackle the probldm by not

:43:35.:43:40.

selling drink before 11am and refusing to serve known problem

:43:41.:43:46.

drinkers. They could have to agree not to sell single cans or

:43:47.:43:49.

high`strength drinks before being given a licence. I think it is a

:43:50.:43:56.

good idea. A lot of the problem is the low cost of drink but they have

:43:57.:44:01.

to find a way of actually controlling this. The appro`ch of

:44:02.:44:06.

Plymouth has been widely welcomed. This week the council has f`ced

:44:07.:44:13.

criticism for delaying the late`night levy. The charge could

:44:14.:44:19.

raise a from bars and clubs for policing and clean`up costs. The

:44:20.:44:25.

plans have been put on hold until the government changes its `

:44:26.:44:31.

announces its changes to license fees. I think Plymouth, and I have

:44:32.:44:37.

talked with the reader over this, in my view should move ahead whth any

:44:38.:44:41.

measures that curb the excesses of alcohol. It could cost some

:44:42.:44:50.

businesses up to ?4000 per xear The Labour leader of Plymouth chty

:44:51.:44:53.

council has warned this del`y is merely a postponement, not `

:44:54.:45:00.

cancellation. The council dhd not go far enough as far as the police are

:45:01.:45:05.

concerned, do you think thex were wrong? They have avoided a knee jerk

:45:06.:45:11.

reaction to a problem that does need resolution. The problem is `ctually

:45:12.:45:20.

that the government have put out an annual review into the way that

:45:21.:45:27.

licensing fees are structurdd. What Plymouth city council are doing is,

:45:28.:45:30.

rather than doing something now that will affect some retailers, then

:45:31.:45:35.

having to change it in a few weeks time, they are waiting to sde

:45:36.:45:40.

exactly what the government will propose and that is bigger on all

:45:41.:45:46.

retailers. The government h`s set a timescale for its consultathon and

:45:47.:45:49.

there are thoughts it will be delayed, if that is the casd I would

:45:50.:45:55.

certainly be concerned and `s a local MP would be harrying the

:45:56.:46:01.

government to come up with `n cancer. We do agree this is the way

:46:02.:46:07.

to go? Tony Hogg is disappohnted, he was hoping to get more reaction to

:46:08.:46:17.

counsel. `` come up with an answer. We need community pubs were

:46:18.:46:23.

responsible drinking is encouraged and will the atmosphere is lore

:46:24.:46:28.

appropriate. We do not want to see jobs `` shops using alcohol as a

:46:29.:46:34.

loss leader, selling it at ` discount price which is what we have

:46:35.:46:39.

seen in the past. The message we need is that we all need to work

:46:40.:46:45.

together to tackle it. It is tempting to look across the water to

:46:46.:46:51.

Europe and ask why we don't have the same problems `` why they do not

:46:52.:46:55.

have the same problems. Strdet brawls, domestic violence, ht does

:46:56.:47:00.

not view `` appear they havd the same problems. They perhaps eat and

:47:01.:47:08.

drink together rather than dat something and then go out drinking

:47:09.:47:15.

on its own, or worse just drink on its own. They do eat and drhnk

:47:16.:47:23.

together it is a different habit. We do not want people to be affected in

:47:24.:47:31.

an irresponsible way. We want to tackle this problem. We havd the

:47:32.:47:35.

problem of alcoholism. Figures out this week showed liver dise`se is up

:47:36.:47:43.

40% across the whole population in one decade. It is an import`nt

:47:44.:47:48.

issue. Should people have lhver function tests as routine? Perhaps

:47:49.:47:54.

this is more of the problem than we are making. I think it would give

:47:55.:47:58.

quite a few people a shock to have the liver function test and realise

:47:59.:48:04.

they are affected by increased alcohol consumption. In America it

:48:05.:48:11.

is not a problem. You do not drink until you are 21 in America, they

:48:12.:48:17.

are very hot on ID and also drunkenness is frowned upon. Is it

:48:18.:48:21.

possible we do need governmdnt action, a big campaign like smoking,

:48:22.:48:27.

like keep Britain tidy, there used to be bitter on the streets and now

:48:28.:48:32.

it is not such a big problel because the targeted children. Cert`inly

:48:33.:48:38.

binge drinking is not sensible and there were programmes and soap opera

:48:39.:48:43.

is that went down that path. I would rather see cheap alcohol done away

:48:44.:48:49.

with in supermarkets. Responsible drinking in pubs overseen bx

:48:50.:48:52.

responsible adults and therd are plenty of them out there, some

:48:53.:48:57.

lovely pubs will stop I think we have lost some of that. Sews support

:48:58.:49:05.

the good side of it? Now from wine to cheese. A Government healthy

:49:06.:49:10.

eating campaign urging us all to eat less saturated fat has been under

:49:11.:49:13.

attack this week. There was talk of a new fridge magnet from thd

:49:14.:49:16.

Department of Health's Change For Life team saying, "Reduced fat

:49:17.:49:19.

cheese, if you please." A mdssage which is angering the producers of

:49:20.:49:22.

full fat cheese here in the South West as Anna Varle reports. This is

:49:23.:49:27.

the amount of fat in that cold pizza. There are 17 cubes of sugar

:49:28.:49:34.

in that fizzy drink. This is the campaign which is causing so much

:49:35.:49:40.

controversy. One week to cut down on saturated fat is to switch to

:49:41.:49:48.

reduced fat cheese, skimmed milk and low`fat spread. This has not gone

:49:49.:49:54.

down with farmers like this woman. She says this is the last thing the

:49:55.:50:03.

daily industry needs. If people are saying let's eat less satur`ted fat,

:50:04.:50:09.

that is animal products and that is what this part of the world do so

:50:10.:50:14.

well. Farmers do not need any more burdens to carry after the flooding

:50:15.:50:19.

and everything else. We would like a government that is getting behind us

:50:20.:50:23.

and seeing`macro accurate information rather than this old

:50:24.:50:29.

news. Farmers are not the only ones unhappy with this campaign, there

:50:30.:50:34.

has been a campaign within the Tory party. Yes, people can look at what

:50:35.:50:41.

they are eating but we must make sure this is the wholesome product

:50:42.:50:46.

and everything that is in that cheese and milk. This is whx farmers

:50:47.:50:51.

will feel let down by this. The government campaign says if this is

:50:52.:50:56.

about advising people on sm`ll changes they can make to he`lthy

:50:57.:51:02.

eating. It does not say that DD is bad for you and it can be enjoyed as

:51:03.:51:13.

part of a healthy diet. `` daily. Currently I think there is ` role

:51:14.:51:19.

for improving diet overall. It is important that the message hs

:51:20.:51:23.

consistent to get across to the whole of the public. It is not just

:51:24.:51:29.

TV and healthy eating campahgns every time you go into a supermarket

:51:30.:51:36.

you are reminded about how luch saturated fat products cont`in. This

:51:37.:51:42.

is ruffling feathers in Europe. This is high in saturated fat and this

:51:43.:51:48.

traffic labelling system is done voluntarily by retailers but it has

:51:49.:51:55.

caused controversy in Europd. In Italy the say`macro it is unclear.

:51:56.:52:01.

This has spurred an enquiry. New rules are coming in at the dnd of

:52:02.:52:05.

the year which farmers like Mary are happy with. Anna Varle reporting,

:52:06.:52:11.

and joining us to discuss this is Victoria Taylor from the Brhtish

:52:12.:52:19.

Heart Foundation. Is she is bad for you? It is not. There are lots of

:52:20.:52:26.

important things we get frol meat and the products but we do have the

:52:27.:52:31.

problem with the amount of saturated fat we are eating. We have to start

:52:32.:52:36.

making small changes to redtce that. Is the government misleading people

:52:37.:52:42.

when it says we have to cut down on daily intake, low`fat products are

:52:43.:52:48.

good for hours in a way? Wh`t the change for life project did was look

:52:49.:52:55.

at where the saturated fat, salt and sugar was coming from in our diet.

:52:56.:53:01.

They have chosen the foods that make the biggest contribution so, in that

:53:02.:53:06.

sense, it is quite helpful for people to identify where it is

:53:07.:53:11.

coming from. Do you think the government has gone too far here? I

:53:12.:53:18.

think there is a rescue can become too prescriptive on this. You are

:53:19.:53:22.

probably asking the wrong pdrson because I am a huge fan of full fat

:53:23.:53:29.

cheese but it is all about ` properly balanced diet combhned with

:53:30.:53:34.

exercise and educating people to understand that if you want to live

:53:35.:53:38.

a healthy life you have to have those combinations of things going

:53:39.:53:46.

on. I take very much the pohnt the farmer made in the film abott the

:53:47.:53:50.

need for marking of products in a way that the public underst`nd that

:53:51.:53:57.

is not detrimental to busindss. Hopefully the new signage whll help

:53:58.:54:05.

both. This new traffic lights system that has come in, it brings me back

:54:06.:54:10.

to Europe and the French wotld they do not fancy this system we read is

:54:11.:54:15.

or foods that are bad with xou because when it comes down to it,

:54:16.:54:20.

things like olive oil and their famous cheeses are going to be in

:54:21.:54:26.

the red category. It is important for people to think about what they

:54:27.:54:31.

are eating. It is easy to jtst grab something. We have wonderful baby

:54:32.:54:36.

products in this country and what I welcome from the daily industry ``

:54:37.:54:57.

dairy industry is their inptt. Do you have sympathy with the farmer in

:54:58.:55:05.

the piece? I used to cheer the all`party group on cheese and the

:55:06.:55:17.

dairy industry. She says yot are telling her business. I do not think

:55:18.:55:21.

she was seeing`macro we are telling her business. We are working with

:55:22.:55:28.

creating new markets for dahly abroad as well and this is crucial

:55:29.:55:34.

to the future of the industry. The Italians have been saying they will

:55:35.:55:41.

try to get the traffic light system ruled out because they think it is

:55:42.:55:46.

unhelpful, with that be a b`d thing to get rid of our Liebling? We would

:55:47.:55:51.

be very concerned about anything that would change our systel. We

:55:52.:56:00.

know it is the format that lakes it easiest for people to make ` healthy

:56:01.:56:06.

choice and informing people and giving them that information so that

:56:07.:56:10.

they can make a healthy chohce is vital. Should that be on all food

:56:11.:56:16.

products? Should we go the other way from Europe and say this is

:56:17.:56:25.

important? We do not need to impose things on a sector which is

:56:26.:56:30.

responding and doing things. People want information not just on

:56:31.:56:35.

nutritional value but also on provenance and evil range of things.

:56:36.:56:39.

That is why labelling is so crucial. It is time for our regular

:56:40.:56:52.

round`up of the political wdek in 60 seconds. The police came under fire

:56:53.:56:59.

for failing to deal with dolestic abuse. They are producing lots of

:57:00.:57:06.

pieces of paper and lots of policies, not all of those things

:57:07.:57:10.

are actually being action. Concerns were raised that families struggling

:57:11.:57:16.

with heating costs are not getting the money available. About half of

:57:17.:57:22.

all eligible families do not receive it because they do not know about

:57:23.:57:27.

it. And the church of England trying to have its cake and eat it by

:57:28.:57:33.

accepting same`sex marriage for its members but not for its polhce ``

:57:34.:57:39.

priests. Is the church really serious about having this open and

:57:40.:57:46.

honest debate? And will be be a vote to overturn the hunting ban or not?

:57:47.:57:57.

It has come at an appropriate time. Let's look at the issue of

:57:58.:58:02.

overturning the hunting ban. What do you make of it? The governmdnt are

:58:03.:58:09.

all over the place, they do not know if they want to appeal to the core

:58:10.:58:15.

vote or UKIP voters. This is indicative of it. My constituents

:58:16.:58:28.

are clear they do not want ht. It was announced that there cotld still

:58:29.:58:35.

be a vote in this Parliament. Cameron said a few days earlier it

:58:36.:58:43.

was unlikely. Two separate hssues. Welsh farmers had a report `bout

:58:44.:58:51.

predation on lambs and they wanted to use more dogs to flush foxes out

:58:52.:58:58.

to guns. There is no agreemdnt between the parties so therd will be

:58:59.:59:03.

no change on that but on thd issue of whether there is a vote to

:59:04.:59:09.

overturn the whole band, th`t is in the coalition agreement. It is

:59:10.:59:12.

something that business man`gers and those that the top of the coalition

:59:13.:59:19.

will decide. There is a big range of opinions between those who would be

:59:20.:59:23.

in favour of keeping the ban and those who want to overturn ht. I

:59:24.:59:29.

have to stop you there. That is the end of the programme. Now b`ck to

:59:30.:59:32.

boundaries. Sorry, run out of time. Thanks very much indeed. Andrew,

:59:33.:59:35.

Thanks very much indeed. Andrew back to you.

:59:36.:59:42.

Now let's get more from our political panel. If the BNP

:59:43.:59:53.

finished? They were never spectacularly successful to begin

:59:54.:59:55.

with but one of my childhood memories was a huge fuss in London

:59:56.:59:58.

about the fact that they won a few council seat on the Isle of dogs

:59:59.:00:02.

back in 1993. That was enough to cause a panic. As if they are

:00:03.:00:05.

falling from a great tit and I think the big difference with the National

:00:06.:00:09.

front in France is that they are building on decades of successful

:00:10.:00:12.

that they finished second in the presence of elections in 2002, I

:00:13.:00:17.

think. And, even in the 60s, they were versions of their politics So

:00:18.:00:22.

they are building on a lot whereas the BNP are working with incredibly

:00:23.:00:31.

few raw materials in this country. It is interesting that the BNP does

:00:32.:00:35.

seem to be in decline in terms of its membership and financially, but

:00:36.:00:42.

in France, the far right party, not as far right as the BNP, but pretty

:00:43.:00:46.

far right, will probably do well in the second round of the French local

:00:47.:00:53.

elections. You could say the same about Golden Dawn in Greece. Parties

:00:54.:00:58.

prosper when the picture is pre-rolled for them. If mainstream

:00:59.:01:02.

parties talk endlessly about immigration, saying you cannot get a

:01:03.:01:06.

council house because it has gone to an immigrant instead of saying it is

:01:07.:01:09.

because there are not enough council houses, that creates the conditions

:01:10.:01:13.

in which the far right can thrive. We are lucky that all the members of

:01:14.:01:18.

the BNP fell out with each other. As extreme members of the far right and

:01:19.:01:25.

left do. You can see that with the comedian in France, he has got a lot

:01:26.:01:30.

of support from people on the left as well. I asked Simon Derby was

:01:31.:01:38.

here victim of a pincer movement that UKIP were taken away voters and

:01:39.:01:46.

EDL has captured the Street protest. Yes, and Giles still not mention

:01:47.:01:53.

that the Labour Party has got its act together. They got the act

:01:54.:01:58.

together in Dagenham. Margaret Hodge and Jon Cruddas did a very good job.

:01:59.:02:04.

I think UKIP would say, not a racist party but they are picking up votes

:02:05.:02:08.

from people who would once have voted BNP. But it is interesting the

:02:09.:02:11.

difference between Britain and France. Why is it that the Front

:02:12.:02:18.

Nationale came second in 2002 when they are not far right? I think they

:02:19.:02:27.

were on a five-year cycle because the next election was 2007. 200

:02:28.:02:33.

they came second when Jean-Marie Le Pen came second. They are not as far

:02:34.:02:47.

right as the BNP. Marine has put them -- cleaned them up a bit.

:02:48.:02:51.

Diplomatically there is a much harder vote which spreads further

:02:52.:02:55.

across the electorate in France than there is in this country. This is a

:02:56.:03:08.

much more tolerant country. If Marine Le Pen does well today, she

:03:09.:03:14.

will not win that many because the centre-right and centre-left will

:03:15.:03:17.

always gang up against terror in the second round, but it sets the tone

:03:18.:03:24.

for the European elections. It does and for the next French presidential

:03:25.:03:29.

election as well. I think what she's doing masterfully is combining a far

:03:30.:03:33.

right politics with what you might call a far left economic politics.

:03:34.:03:37.

She's not just picking up votes from xenophobes, she is picking up votes

:03:38.:03:41.

from who feel victimised from globalisation. They are people who

:03:42.:03:47.

would be voting for socialists but are put off by the current

:03:48.:03:51.

president. That is what I do not think the British far right parties

:03:52.:03:56.

have been able to do. You sort Simon Derby try to tell you that the BNP

:03:57.:04:00.

are not far right party. I think he was going to say if you look at

:04:01.:04:04.

issues of protectionism, standing up against globalisation, they are

:04:05.:04:10.

quite statist. That is where the phrase National Socialist comes

:04:11.:04:15.

from. That is why a little bit of electoral success is often a killer

:04:16.:04:19.

for far right parties. They get a few council seats and then they are

:04:20.:04:24.

rubbish. They are not getting people's bins collected so they

:04:25.:04:27.

become part of the system that people were voting against in the

:04:28.:04:32.

first place. Lets go on to the Labour Party. If you are a Labour

:04:33.:04:36.

Party supporter and you want to be cheered up, you pick up the Sunday

:04:37.:04:40.

Times where you see a poll where the leader is up to seven points. If you

:04:41.:04:45.

are Tory Lib Dem and you want to be cheered up, you pick up the

:04:46.:04:50.

Observer, the left-wing paper, where the Labour leader is still 1%. I

:04:51.:04:55.

have read in the paper that there is quite a lot of of the record

:04:56.:04:59.

briefings going on at the top of the Labour Party. Give us a sense of the

:05:00.:05:05.

mood. Clearly, they are unsettled. One pol looks OK but there has been

:05:06.:05:12.

a run of polls where there is a lead over the Tories which is closing.

:05:13.:05:19.

There are worrying number of people who are what are called the 35s and

:05:20.:05:26.

they are people who thought all the Labour Party needs to do is sit

:05:27.:05:30.

still because there are a number of Liberal Democrat voters who hate the

:05:31.:05:33.

coalition. Because the Conservatives did not get through the boundary

:05:34.:05:39.

changes they needed to win, we can sit tight and it will all be fine.

:05:40.:05:42.

What a few wise old heads are concerned about is they feel this

:05:43.:05:49.

has a feel of 1987 about it when the Labour Party was united. They had a

:05:50.:05:53.

very good leader. The leader was impressive, the party was united and

:05:54.:05:58.

then what happened? They met the British people and an election. The

:05:59.:06:03.

British people said, terribly sorry, you are not occupying the party

:06:04.:06:06.

political territory where we will vote for you. There are some people

:06:07.:06:12.

from the Blair era who say it feels a bit complacent and there may be a

:06:13.:06:16.

bit of a shock when they meet the voters. We talk about people being

:06:17.:06:22.

unsettled but Ed Miliband is not unsettled. His defining

:06:23.:06:26.

characteristic is you might call it steadiness or you might call it a

:06:27.:06:30.

lack of agility. He could not respond to the pension stuff in the

:06:31.:06:34.

budget which was thrown at him. But he's very good at separating the

:06:35.:06:37.

signal from the noise. They may think this will all change in me.

:06:38.:06:41.

The Tories may be on the back foot after the European elections. He has

:06:42.:06:47.

the ability to set the political weather. He did it with the price

:06:48.:06:53.

freeze. There is no doubt that Mr Davey would not be referring these

:06:54.:06:57.

energy companies to the competition authorities if it had not been for

:06:58.:07:01.

that speech by the Labour leader. And we read today he has come up

:07:02.:07:04.

with another policy which will be attention grabbing to cut student

:07:05.:07:11.

tuition fees. It is easy to forget that before he announced the price

:07:12.:07:14.

freeze he was in as much vertical trouble as he is now. I think the

:07:15.:07:19.

Labour poll lead will expand up to five or 6% by the summer, assuming

:07:20.:07:26.

the Tories do badly. The question is, is five or 6% enough? Nick

:07:27.:07:33.

through the analogy with 1987. This reminds me of the Conservatives in

:07:34.:07:39.

2009/10. You have a steadily sinking poll lead, differences in what

:07:40.:07:44.

campaign they should be running and personal animosity behind the

:07:45.:07:48.

scenes. It led to them throwing away an election which seemed to be

:07:49.:07:53.

winnable. There is an important difference with the 1980s which was

:07:54.:07:57.

because you did not know when the election would be. Will it be in 87

:07:58.:08:03.

or 88? They do not need to make up their mind until next year. What

:08:04.:08:06.

they are telling the pollsters now, we do not like this government

:08:07.:08:10.

because of course, you do not like the government. But next January or

:08:11.:08:14.

February they will be making up their minds. Is there a lot of

:08:15.:08:18.

animosity among the leading Labour figures behind-the-scenes? It must

:08:19.:08:24.

be personal or tactical because there are not big ideological

:08:25.:08:28.

differences between them, is there? Yes and no. What is striking is how

:08:29.:08:34.

little support Miliband gets from the shadow cabinet. He does not have

:08:35.:08:39.

outriders. That has been a continuous theme. Said he feels he

:08:40.:08:45.

is on his own? That they feel they do not get support from him. There

:08:46.:08:49.

was a column by Jenni Russell saying he is distant and detached. And

:08:50.:08:55.

Andrew Walmsley touched on this in the Observer. One of the divisions

:08:56.:09:03.

is Ed versus Ed. There is a terrible structural problem between those

:09:04.:09:08.

two. It is a real problem. Ed Miliband believes Ed Balls has not

:09:09.:09:11.

done enough to get economic red ability. Ed Balls believes Ed

:09:12.:09:16.

Miliband is making airy fairy speeches and it will not cut with

:09:17.:09:21.

the electorate. Neither Mr Cameron nor Mr Miller band took part in the

:09:22.:09:25.

debate which happened earlier this week between the Lib Dems and UKIP.

:09:26.:09:30.

We have got another one coming up on the BBC on Wednesday night. Let s

:09:31.:09:34.

remind ourselves of what happened in last week's debate.

:09:35.:09:42.

I will ask Nick to open the batting. We are better off in Europe...

:09:43.:09:50.

Frankly not working any more. A referendum on Europe. I agree with

:09:51.:09:57.

you. I agree with you. If you can read the small print. Pull up the

:09:58.:10:06.

drawbridge, pool drawbridge up. . We have 485 million people... It is

:10:07.:10:12.

simply not true! Not true. Not true. Not true. Identical with Nick. I

:10:13.:10:19.

don't agree with Nick. Based on facts, facts, the facts, facts, the

:10:20.:10:25.

facts... Thank God we did not listen to you. The food is getting better

:10:26.:10:31.

here. Jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs. You have never had a proper job. Great

:10:32.:10:41.

not little England. Good night. I think it is seven o'clock BBC Two.

:10:42.:10:46.

Helen, what was the outcome of that and how do we mark our card for this

:10:47.:10:52.

week? It was not a great time for pundits. Everybody called the debate

:10:53.:10:56.

for Nick and then they said actually, we think it has gone the

:10:57.:11:03.

other way. Consensus emerged later on that Nick Clegg made a difficult

:11:04.:11:08.

argument. I think the most important thing Nigel Farage said was he

:11:09.:11:11.

distinguished out the immigration policy by saying we're not just

:11:12.:11:15.

closing day over, we want people to come, we just do not want mass EU

:11:16.:11:19.

immigration. That is an important thing for him to say to get away

:11:20.:11:24.

from the echoes of the far right. I suspect Nick Clegg will not ask us

:11:25.:11:29.

to read the small print. That was 11 turn he took. It compounded his

:11:30.:11:35.

reputation for being sneaky. I slightly disagree about the pundits.

:11:36.:11:39.

I say this as someone who thought far it would win. -- Nigel Farage

:11:40.:11:46.

would win. The fact that the public disagree with you and the public

:11:47.:11:49.

favoured Nigel Farage does not mean the public were wrong. The question

:11:50.:11:58.

is, who is going to tune in for the second one? What is the answer to

:11:59.:12:04.

that? Phil Collins argument is a man who is on 8% is fantastic. It is a

:12:05.:12:10.

binary choice in this debate. Clearly they need to brush up on

:12:11.:12:14.

opposite areas. Nigel Farage needs to brush up on facts and Nick Clegg

:12:15.:12:18.

needs to brush up on the motions because he did not connect very

:12:19.:12:22.

well. Where Nick Clegg may go after Nigel Farage is when the -- when he

:12:23.:12:28.

said the EU has blood on its hands with Ukraine. He then came back to

:12:29.:12:33.

talk about the vanity of EU foreign policy and said European Union had

:12:34.:12:35.

made what was going on in Syria worse. It is one thing to say I do

:12:36.:12:41.

not think the UK should be part of the joint European foreign policy,

:12:42.:12:44.

it is part of another thing to say that Europe which will act with or

:12:45.:12:48.

without the UK is responsible for blood on the streets of Kiev and

:12:49.:12:52.

also responsible for exacerbating the Civil War in Syria. Maybe an

:12:53.:12:57.

hour is too long for Nigel Farage's shtick? That may be the case but

:12:58.:13:04.

Nick Clegg has precedence. He does that show and he has had to deal

:13:05.:13:08.

with the worst thing with dealing with what is thrown at him so he has

:13:09.:13:13.

honed his view consistently. We will see what happens in part two.

:13:14.:13:17.

That's all for this week. The Daily Politics is on BBC Two at lunchtime

:13:18.:13:21.

every day this week. I'll be here next week at the usual time of 1

:13:22.:13:25.

o'clock. Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:26.:13:32.

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