29/01/2017 Sunday Politics South West


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29/01/2017

Andrew Neil and Lucie Fisher are joined by Nigel Farage, MEP. The Political Panel consists of Janan Ganesh, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Steve Richards.


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Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees and citizens of seven

:01:09.:01:13.

Battling the Blues in Cornwall. protests at several US airports.

:01:14.:01:18.

The Lib Dem fightback begins, but can the party of the 48%

:01:19.:01:21.

Should she have spoken out more strongly?

:01:22.:01:27.

We'll ask former Ukip leader and Trump confidant Nigel Farage

:01:28.:01:30.

what he makes of the travel ban and the Prime Minister's

:01:31.:01:32.

In London this week, the mayor, Sadiq Khan,

:01:33.:01:35.

has been coming under pressure to explain his fares freeze

:01:36.:01:38.

and why it doesn't apply to everybody.

:01:39.:01:39.

And with me, the best and brightest political

:01:40.:01:41.

panel in the business - Steve Richards, Julia

:01:42.:01:43.

They'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

:01:44.:01:46.

It was soon after Theresa May left the White House on Friday that

:01:47.:01:49.

Donald Trump signed the executive order banning citizens from seven

:01:50.:01:51.

President Trump's 90-day ban covers Iran, Iraq,

:01:52.:01:57.

Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen and Syria, from

:01:58.:02:01.

where refugees are banned from until further notice.

:02:02.:02:05.

Donald Trump's executive order also imposes a complete ban

:02:06.:02:08.

on all refugees coming to the US for the next 120 days.

:02:09.:02:13.

Mr Trump said that the ban would keep radical Islamic terrorists out

:02:14.:02:17.

But the ban has sparked protests across the US,

:02:18.:02:25.

as people affected and already in the air were detained

:02:26.:02:28.

US laws have begun legal action to challenge the ban, which many

:02:29.:02:31.

At a press conference in Ankara, Turkey, Theresa May was asked

:02:32.:02:37.

about the refugee ban three times before giving this response...

:02:38.:02:42.

Well, the United States is responsible for the United States'

:02:43.:02:44.

The United Kingdom is responsible for the United Kingdom's policy

:02:45.:02:51.

on refugees, and our policy on refugees is to have a number

:02:52.:02:53.

of voluntary schemes to bring Syrian refugees into the country.

:02:54.:02:56.

Downing Street later issued a statement saying:

:02:57.:03:11.

This morning, the Treasury Minister, David Gauke, was asked why

:03:12.:03:13.

Theresa May had refused to condemn the travel ban at yesterday's

:03:14.:03:16.

The Prime Minister is not a shoot-from-the-hip

:03:17.:03:22.

She wants to see the evidence, she wants

:03:23.:03:26.

to understand precisely what the implications are.

:03:27.:03:31.

She'd been in a series of very lengthy meetings with

:03:32.:03:33.

President Erdogan, and she's someone who wants to see the briefing and

:03:34.:03:37.

understand it, and then will respond to that.

:03:38.:03:41.

I think there are times where, you know, there's always

:03:42.:03:43.

pressure to respond within a news cycle and so on.

:03:44.:03:47.

The important thing is, we are saying we disagree with it

:03:48.:03:49.

We're joined now from North London by the Conservative

:03:50.:03:53.

Should the Government in general and Theresa May in particular be more

:03:54.:04:05.

vocal in their criticism of Donald Trump's travel bans? Well, as David

:04:06.:04:13.

just said, it is obviously right that Theresa has now said this is an

:04:14.:04:17.

appropriate and not something we agree with in our Government, but I

:04:18.:04:21.

wish she had said something at the time, not least because it affects

:04:22.:04:28.

our own citizens. One of our own MPs, Nadhim, for example, because it

:04:29.:04:32.

is also a global crisis. She had clearly built an excellent with

:04:33.:04:39.

Donald Trump -- she had built an excellent relationship with him, but

:04:40.:04:42.

she could have been firmer. Mrs May hasn't said any word of criticism

:04:43.:04:47.

about the travel bans. She refused to say anything three times in

:04:48.:04:53.

Ankara, and it is merely an anonymous Downing Street

:04:54.:04:55.

spokesperson that has issued the subsequent mild criticism. We have

:04:56.:04:58.

not heard from the Prime Minister at all on this matter in terms of

:04:59.:05:03.

criticism. No, but the spokesperson will be speaking with her blessing,

:05:04.:05:07.

so it is clearly something she has acknowledged. As I said before, I

:05:08.:05:11.

wish she had said something at the time. The global climate at the

:05:12.:05:15.

moment is delicate and we need our leaders to work together to address

:05:16.:05:20.

things like the refugee crisis. Potentially, this plays into the

:05:21.:05:24.

hands of Daesh. It is absolutely not the right message. What would you

:05:25.:05:32.

like the Prime Minister to say? As with any new relationship, it is

:05:33.:05:35.

about testing the boundaries. They had clearly got on well, so she

:05:36.:05:38.

should have felt braver to say something there and then. I would

:05:39.:05:42.

have preferred her to say, for example, I need to talk to Donald

:05:43.:05:45.

Trump about this. It is not something I support and I want to

:05:46.:05:47.

understand why because I believe there is a better way to deal with

:05:48.:05:52.

the terrorist threat. I would have liked her to suggest that she would

:05:53.:05:56.

engage with him to do that. The president has instituted a 90 day

:05:57.:06:00.

temporary ban on people coming from seven mainly Muslim majority

:06:01.:06:06.

population countries. The seven were on President Obama's list of the

:06:07.:06:11.

biggest terrorist threats to the United States. Mr Trump wants this

:06:12.:06:15.

temporary ban until he puts tougher vetting procedures in place. What is

:06:16.:06:21.

wrong with that? Because it appeared to me that it wasn't thought through

:06:22.:06:25.

and it was affecting ordinary citizens and some British citizens.

:06:26.:06:29.

It can't be right that a president in that position of power can

:06:30.:06:33.

arbitrarily come up with executive powers like that. It has already

:06:34.:06:38.

been challenged by his own courts. So it is not the considered approach

:06:39.:06:43.

I want to see in a global leader. Who do you believe will be hurt by

:06:44.:06:47.

this, given that there can be exceptions on a case-by-case basis?

:06:48.:07:01.

I think potentially, our global reputation is going to be hurt by

:07:02.:07:06.

this. I have been to the refugee camps in Europe myself. There are

:07:07.:07:10.

desperate people trying to free persecution who will be hurt by

:07:11.:07:13.

this. We are trying to heal the wounds in this country not only

:07:14.:07:17.

because of Brexit. This is a time of coming together, not about saying it

:07:18.:07:20.

is located discriminatory against race and religion in this way. Do

:07:21.:07:25.

you believe that Mr Trump's state visit should go ahead? Well, he is

:07:26.:07:31.

the leader of America, so it does need to go ahead and we need to work

:07:32.:07:34.

with him. I believe Theresa has started in a positive manner was

:07:35.:07:39.

that she just needs to continue in that vein. If he comes to our

:07:40.:07:42.

country, he needs to respect the way we feel about things. But yes, he is

:07:43.:07:48.

the president, so he does need to come to the UK. There is some debate

:07:49.:07:51.

within Westminster as to where it is appropriate for him to speak to MPs,

:07:52.:07:56.

but it is right that he comes. But if he does come on a state visit,

:07:57.:08:00.

should he be granted what this country has always thought of as a

:08:01.:08:03.

great honour, which is a joint address to both Houses of

:08:04.:08:09.

Parliament? I haven't been an MP long enough to understand the

:08:10.:08:12.

protocol of where is the right location for him to do that, but I

:08:13.:08:17.

believe in the past, it has been the greatest leaders, when they have

:08:18.:08:22.

achieved great things globally, it is Westminster Hall. But there are a

:08:23.:08:26.

number of MPs saying that is not the most appropriate place and I am

:08:27.:08:29.

inclined to agree. You don't think he should be accorded the privilege

:08:30.:08:32.

of speaking to a joint session of Parliament? I think there are places

:08:33.:08:38.

where he can do that, but Westminster Hall is not yet the

:08:39.:08:41.

right place. Thank you for joining us.

:08:42.:08:51.

Steve, within 24 hours, we have seen the difficulty of becoming Donald

:08:52.:08:58.

Trump's best friend. On the one hand, it could have huge advantages,

:08:59.:09:02.

particularly for a Brexit Britain. On the other hand, if you are going

:09:03.:09:07.

to be his best friend, you don't have to give a running commentary on

:09:08.:09:12.

every major thing he does. Yeah. We have learned a bit about Theresa

:09:13.:09:17.

May, that when she has to produce a set piece speech which she has time

:09:18.:09:22.

to prepare, she can get it totally right and sometimes more than right.

:09:23.:09:27.

When she is faced with a fast-moving story, she is leaden footed and

:09:28.:09:36.

can't think quickly on her feet. We know, did she regret not saying

:09:37.:09:40.

more? Evidently she did, because we got a statement from the Downing

:09:41.:09:44.

Street spokesperson saying more. So she can't think quickly. She's going

:09:45.:09:48.

to have to think very quickly in response to some of the things he's

:09:49.:09:51.

going to be doing, because she will be asked about it all the time. It

:09:52.:09:56.

does highlight the wider danger that the assumption that the special

:09:57.:10:01.

relationship is always a safe and fertile place to be has been proven

:10:02.:10:04.

wrong before and I think it will be proven wrong big-time in this case.

:10:05.:10:10.

You're shaking your head. I don't see why we are responsible for

:10:11.:10:14.

American domestic policy. I am as appalled as the next person by what

:10:15.:10:18.

Donald Trump has done. He said he was going to do this, which was why

:10:19.:10:24.

I did not want Americans to vote for him. In fact, what he has

:10:25.:10:27.

implemented is much less than what he said he would do when he was

:10:28.:10:32.

campaigning. I have always felt that the campaigning Trump was the real

:10:33.:10:38.

Trump. But what he has done is actually constitutional. He has the

:10:39.:10:41.

executive power to issue this order. It is within the rules in terms of a

:10:42.:10:46.

class of aliens deemed to be a risk to the United States. It is a 90 day

:10:47.:10:51.

limited ban. The last president who did this was a Democrat president,

:10:52.:10:57.

President Carter. He did it in the aftermath of the Iranian crisis.

:10:58.:11:01.

Well, given the spate of terror attacks on American territory in

:11:02.:11:04.

recent years, you could argue that he meant well. I don't agree with

:11:05.:11:12.

Donald Trump. But have people from these countries that he has banned

:11:13.:11:16.

been involved in terrorist attacks? That is the absurdity. He has not

:11:17.:11:21.

included Egypt or Pakistan. But I don't remove everyone getting in

:11:22.:11:25.

such a state about President Carter. The reality is that it is a legal

:11:26.:11:28.

thing for him to do. I don't like it. But it is not my territory. It

:11:29.:11:38.

is illegal, because they have been given a right to remain by a judge

:11:39.:11:43.

in Brooklyn and another judging Alexandra. That is a different issue

:11:44.:11:47.

for people who have already gone through the vetting. I don't agree

:11:48.:11:53.

with this. However, I don't think it's reasonable to say that Theresa

:11:54.:11:57.

May, because she wants to do a deal with Donald Trump, I don't give is

:11:58.:12:03.

reasonable to say she have to agree with each of his policies. It is

:12:04.:12:09.

nonsense. But the issue, Janan, is not whether she needs to agree with

:12:10.:12:13.

him. The question is that she will be questioned about him all the time

:12:14.:12:19.

now. And although these are matters of domestic policy, the refugee

:12:20.:12:22.

policy is international. They speak to issues that affect Britain as

:12:23.:12:28.

well, and I would suggest that she will not get away with this

:12:29.:12:33.

anonymous statement from Downing Street. People will demand a she

:12:34.:12:37.

says something on the record. She would get away with it indefinitely.

:12:38.:12:40.

These situations will recur every time Donald Trump says or does

:12:41.:12:45.

something contentious. She will be pressed to this associate her

:12:46.:12:49.

administration from his. She will probably be in a better logistical

:12:50.:12:54.

situation to do so. She has spent a big chunk of the past 72 hours in

:12:55.:12:58.

the air. She flew from Washington to Ankara, than from Ankara to London.

:12:59.:13:03.

We don't have Air Force One, we don't have those frictionless

:13:04.:13:05.

communications with the ground. She would have been incommunicado for

:13:06.:13:10.

large periods of time when this story was breaking. That doesn't

:13:11.:13:14.

excuse the stiff response when she landed and issued a statement via

:13:15.:13:18.

Downing Street. But during that delay, she did have a plausible

:13:19.:13:22.

excuse. She has also got a much more tricky geopolitical situation than

:13:23.:13:26.

many other world leaders. She has to strike a favourable trade deal with

:13:27.:13:31.

the new US president. It is all very well people saying Justin Trudeau of

:13:32.:13:34.

Canada was much more vociferous in his criticism of Donald Trump. He is

:13:35.:13:38.

already in Nafta, he is not striking a new deal. For how long, we don't

:13:39.:13:44.

know. Exactly, he's trying to stay in Nafta, but he is in a less tricky

:13:45.:13:46.

situation than she is. Now, Theresa May's was the first

:13:47.:13:50.

foreign leader to meet President Trump and the visit

:13:51.:13:53.

was seen as quite a coup for the Prime Minister,

:13:54.:13:55.

keen for a new trading relationship with the United States

:13:56.:13:58.

in the wake of Brexit. The Prime Minister congratulated

:13:59.:14:00.

the new US President for his "stunning election victory"

:14:01.:14:02.

but might not have intended to be pictured walking

:14:03.:14:04.

through the White House with him That picture of Donald Trump helping

:14:05.:14:07.

Theresa May down the steps through the White House colonnade

:14:08.:14:11.

will be the enduring image Mrs May said the President

:14:12.:14:14.

told her he was "100% behind Nato". And for her part, the Prime Minister

:14:15.:14:22.

said she would work hard to make sure other Nato countries

:14:23.:14:25.

increased their defence spending It's been announced

:14:26.:14:29.

that there will be a new trade negotiation agreement,

:14:30.:14:35.

with high-level talks The hope is that this will lead

:14:36.:14:36.

to a new trade deal between the two countries as soon as

:14:37.:14:42.

Britain leaves the EU. Mr Trump said he believed "Brexit's

:14:43.:14:46.

going to be a wonderful thing". On Russia, Theresa May made clear

:14:47.:14:49.

to Donald Trump her continued

:14:50.:14:52.

backing for sanctions. And following the controversy over

:14:53.:14:57.

the President's support for torture, Mr Trump said he would defer

:14:58.:15:00.

to his Secretary of Defense, General James Mattis, who argues

:15:01.:15:02.

that the practice doesn't work. And I'm joined now by the former

:15:03.:15:06.

Ukip leader, Nigel Farage. Do you agree with Mr Trump's

:15:07.:15:22.

decision to ban Syrian refugees indefinitely from entering the

:15:23.:15:26.

United States? I agree with the concept of democracy, a point which

:15:27.:15:30.

appears to be missed by almost all commentators including the BBC. He

:15:31.:15:35.

was elected to get tough and say he would do everything in his power to

:15:36.:15:38.

protect America from infiltration by ISIS terrorists. There are seven

:15:39.:15:46.

countries on that list. He's entitled to do this. I didn't ask if

:15:47.:15:52.

he was entitled, I asked if agree with it. I do, because if you just

:15:53.:15:58.

look at what's happening in France and Germany, if you look at Angela

:15:59.:16:02.

Merkel's policy which was to allow virtually anyone in from anywhere,

:16:03.:16:08.

look what it led to. You said in 2013 there's a responsibility on all

:16:09.:16:11.

of us in the free west to help some of those people fleeing Syria

:16:12.:16:17.

literally in fear of their lives. That's the Christian community in

:16:18.:16:22.

virtually all of those country, it is almost too late because many have

:16:23.:16:25.

been wiped out but if you are looking for a genuine definition of

:16:26.:16:30.

a refugee, going back to 1951, it is someone in direct fear of

:16:31.:16:35.

persecution of their life because of their race, religion or beliefs. But

:16:36.:16:39.

you didn't talk about only Christians, and in January 2014 you

:16:40.:16:43.

said, I seem to recall it was Ukip who started the debate on allowing

:16:44.:16:47.

Syrian refugees, you seem to be in favour of allowing proper refugees

:16:48.:16:54.

into this country. If they can be defined. Mr Trump won't let any in.

:16:55.:17:02.

He is running American policy, not British policy. Since I made those

:17:03.:17:06.

comments, we have had the Angela Merkel madness and I think Trump's

:17:07.:17:11.

policy in many ways has been shaped by what Angela Merkel did. He is

:17:12.:17:16.

fully entitled to do this, and as far as we are concerned in this

:17:17.:17:19.

country, I would like to see extreme vetting. Since 9/11 can you name any

:17:20.:17:29.

terrorist event in the United States that has involved refugees that have

:17:30.:17:33.

been allowed into the country? No, in fact the terrorist events have

:17:34.:17:38.

been US citizens radicalised. When you have a problem already, why

:17:39.:17:43.

would you wish to add to it? I would remind you that of the eight people

:17:44.:17:46.

that committed those atrocities in Paris, five of them had got into

:17:47.:17:50.

Europe posing as refugees so there is an issue here. But perhaps not

:17:51.:17:56.

for America because it has the most rigorous and lengthy screening

:17:57.:17:59.

process in the world, especially for Syrians. You have to register with

:18:00.:18:04.

the UN agency for refugees, which then recommend certain names to

:18:05.:18:09.

America, they then go through biometric screening, database

:18:10.:18:13.

screening, intelligent screenings, including four separate intelligence

:18:14.:18:23.

agencies screening you. How more rigorous would you want it to be? It

:18:24.:18:31.

is much more rigorous than we are or the rest of Europe. This is why we

:18:32.:18:35.

have elections, so voters can make choices and they voted for Donald

:18:36.:18:38.

Trump to become president and he said he would put bans in place and

:18:39.:18:44.

then move towards extreme vetting. As far as the Syrians are concerned

:18:45.:18:47.

he's made that decision but that's what he was voted in fourth. Since

:18:48.:18:54.

you know him, you have met him, you are confident of his, I'm testing

:18:55.:18:59.

you on the logic of it. Not that he's democratically elected, I'm not

:19:00.:19:03.

asking about that, I'm trying to get the case, particularly since if you

:19:04.:19:06.

take the seven countries of which the ban applies for 19 days, again,

:19:07.:19:13.

of these seven countries, its citizens have not been involved in

:19:14.:19:16.

terrorist attacks in the United States. It would be a mistake to say

:19:17.:19:20.

it is just Muslim countries because the biggest Muslim countries in the

:19:21.:19:23.

world have not been included in this. The point is they have made

:19:24.:19:27.

this assessment, they bought themselves 90 days to think about

:19:28.:19:32.

the policy. This is exactly what Trump's voters would have wanted him

:19:33.:19:39.

to do. You said the President's rhetoric on immigrants made even you

:19:40.:19:43.

feel very uncomfortable. Because he started by saying there was a total

:19:44.:19:47.

ban, then amended it to say there would be vetting. My guess is that

:19:48.:19:52.

what he will do is try to genuinely help Syrian people and he will be

:19:53.:19:56.

talking about the creation of some safe zones. Let's see. He hasn't. We

:19:57.:20:04.

will see. I suspect something like that is coming down the trap. What

:20:05.:20:10.

advice did you give to the president and his advisers ahead of Theresa

:20:11.:20:16.

May's visit? That I wanted us to talk about trade and to give the

:20:17.:20:20.

Prime Minister the impression that actually... When she has been

:20:21.:20:24.

surrounded by her whole career by civil servants and politicians who

:20:25.:20:29.

say that everything takes five years or seven years or ten years, to make

:20:30.:20:33.

it clear to the Prime Minister that if there is will, these things can

:20:34.:20:36.

be done quickly. Isn't there a danger of a British Prime Minister

:20:37.:20:40.

who has to deal with the president of the United States, to Ally

:20:41.:20:46.

herself so closely with such an unpredictable, controversial

:20:47.:20:51.

president, banning Muslims in certain ways and refugees, building

:20:52.:20:56.

a war with Mexico, threatening trade was with other countries, thinking

:20:57.:21:00.

of ending sanctions against Russia? I missing something here, what is

:21:01.:21:05.

controversial about defending the Mexican border? Bill Clinton spoke

:21:06.:21:10.

in tough terms, George Bush built six miles of fence, and because it

:21:11.:21:14.

is Donald Trump there is uproar. So you think there is no risk of the

:21:15.:21:18.

British by Minister being the best friend of this type of president? I

:21:19.:21:22.

think there is no risk in putting together a trade deal and no risk in

:21:23.:21:26.

her being the bridge between America and the rest of Nato to say to Nato

:21:27.:21:30.

members if you don't pay your 2% he is serious so on those things there

:21:31.:21:36.

is no risk at all. It was clear from her Lancaster house speech that the

:21:37.:21:41.

Brexiteers in the Government had won pretty much every argument in terms

:21:42.:21:45.

of negotiations to come out. What you want from her? She was very good

:21:46.:21:53.

as Home Secretary, Tory party conferences, the Tory press saying

:21:54.:21:56.

this was the new Thatcher and she failed. She even failed to control

:21:57.:22:01.

immigration from outside the European Union so yes, it was a good

:22:02.:22:04.

speech and for many on the Eurosceptic side of the argument, I

:22:05.:22:09.

could scarcely believe that a British Prime Minister was saying

:22:10.:22:12.

things which I had been roundly abused and vilified for. But I have

:22:13.:22:19.

a feeling we may be in for a very frustrating 2017. The mood as I can

:22:20.:22:22.

see it in Brussels is that negotiating with Britain is not a

:22:23.:22:27.

priority, they are far more worried about Dutch elections, French

:22:28.:22:31.

elections, German elections and possibly even Italian elections. I

:22:32.:22:36.

worry that by the end of this year we may not have made much progress

:22:37.:22:39.

and that's why the Trump visit suddenly things brings into focus.

:22:40.:22:46.

What if by the middle of June, for argument 's sake, the Americans say

:22:47.:22:50.

OK we reached this position with the British, compromised on the tough

:22:51.:22:53.

stuff, food standards and things like that, we are ready to sign a

:22:54.:23:00.

deal now, and Theresa May is to say actually Mr Juncker says I cannot

:23:01.:23:04.

sign this until we leave. What will they do? They cannot throw us out,

:23:05.:23:09.

we are living anyway. But everybody agrees you can talk about the deal,

:23:10.:23:14.

maybe even do the heads of agreement but you cannot sign a treaty until

:23:15.:23:18.

we have left the EU. Let me predict that at the end of this year we will

:23:19.:23:22.

find a European Union who frankly don't want to talk to us and

:23:23.:23:26.

countries around the world that want to get on and do things and that

:23:27.:23:30.

will be the big tension for Mrs May over the course of this year. If the

:23:31.:23:35.

Prime Minister is giving you everything you want on Brexit, you

:23:36.:23:39.

agree that she's trying to get from your point of view the right things.

:23:40.:23:43.

If she delivers on that and get Brexit on the terms of which you

:23:44.:23:48.

approve, what's the point of Ukip? You could argue that about any

:23:49.:23:52.

political party. If we have achieved the goal that we set out to achieve,

:23:53.:23:58.

there are right now out there 4 million people who are Ukip

:23:59.:24:01.

loyalists. They are delighted that by voting Ukip we got a referendum,

:24:02.:24:07.

they will be even happier if they seek us leave the European Union and

:24:08.:24:11.

I think there is still a gap in British politics for a party that

:24:12.:24:15.

says it as it sees it, is not afraid by political correctness and is seen

:24:16.:24:18.

to be on the side of the little people, and that's why, with the

:24:19.:24:23.

Labour Party is fundamentally split, and it really is totally split over

:24:24.:24:28.

this European question, I think Ukip is in good shape. That proposition

:24:29.:24:33.

will be put to test at the Stoke Central by-election, one of Ukip's

:24:34.:24:38.

best prospects in the country. Some people call it the capital of

:24:39.:24:42.

Brexit. Labour is in chaos over Article 50, is picked a candidate to

:24:43.:24:48.

fight Stoke Central who has described Brexit is a pile of notes.

:24:49.:24:57.

If your successor, Paul Nuttall, cannot win the Stoke by-election,

:24:58.:25:01.

there's not much hope for you, is there? I think he will. I've always

:25:02.:25:05.

been told don't make predictions but I think he will win. If you doesn't

:25:06.:25:12.

it will be tough, we will still have our 4 million loyalists, but if it

:25:13.:25:17.

does we can actually see Labour are beatable in their heartlands and

:25:18.:25:21.

Ukip will be off to the second big stage. Nigel Farage, thank you for

:25:22.:25:23.

being with us. It's just gone 11.25,

:25:24.:25:25.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:25:26.:25:27.

in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 15 minutes, I'll

:25:28.:25:29.

be talking to our political panel. Coming up on Sunday Politics

:25:30.:25:41.

here in the South-West: Why has he just spent

:25:42.:25:45.

three days in Cornwall? And, for the next 20 minutes,

:25:46.:25:50.

I'm joined by the Conservative MP Steve Double, and by the Lib Dem

:25:51.:25:54.

peer Robin Teverson. The region's only Labour MP says

:25:55.:25:57.

he will defy his leader and vote against triggering Article 50

:25:58.:26:03.

and the official process I can't vote to destroy jobs

:26:04.:26:05.

and prosperity in Exeter Theresa May says she wants a hard

:26:06.:26:11.

Brexit, outside the Customs unit, outside the single market,

:26:12.:26:17.

and if we don't get that, we fall back on what are called

:26:18.:26:20.

big WTO rules. Either way, absolutely disastrous

:26:21.:26:23.

for our economy, and there is no Meanwhile, one of our leading

:26:24.:26:25.

Brexit-backing Tories demanded reassurance there would be no second

:26:26.:26:32.

referendum on the deal the government finally

:26:33.:26:34.

thrashes out with Brussels. There has been a lot of talk

:26:35.:26:38.

of second referendums on Article 50, from some on the opposite side

:26:39.:26:41.

of the House. Will my honourable friend please

:26:42.:26:44.

reassure my constituents, the majority of whom voted to leave,

:26:45.:26:49.

that he will categorically rule out Steve, what is wrong with the idea

:26:50.:26:52.

of having a referendum, putting it to the people,

:26:53.:27:05.

when the government thrashes out whatever form of Brexit it

:27:06.:27:08.

finally arrives at? Maybe they could just

:27:09.:27:11.

make a decision on it? The British people made a clear

:27:12.:27:14.

decision last year to leave, But there are forms of Brexit,

:27:15.:27:16.

nobody could deny that. But I think the Prime Minister has

:27:17.:27:25.

made it clear, we are going to negotiate the very best deal

:27:26.:27:28.

we can get. If we put it to a second referendum,

:27:29.:27:32.

and people voted no, It has just been said,

:27:33.:27:35.

the reality is that we would go back on world trade organisation tariffs,

:27:36.:27:43.

and I don't see the point We will get a positive deal

:27:44.:27:45.

and it is for Parliament to implement what the British

:27:46.:27:51.

people have decided. Some people say the WTO

:27:52.:27:54.

rules are fine... Some people say that's fine,

:27:55.:27:59.

I think we can get a much better deal than that from the EU,

:28:00.:28:02.

and that's what we Isn't there a big problem in terms

:28:03.:28:05.

of people on the remain side, arguing that people did not vote

:28:06.:28:12.

to leave the single market, in that leading remain campaigners

:28:13.:28:16.

said, if you vote to leave the EU, you will be voting to leave

:28:17.:28:19.

the single market. I wasn't one of those

:28:20.:28:21.

and I don't recall that... People like the former

:28:22.:28:24.

Prime Minister! The Prime Minister then is no longer

:28:25.:28:27.

the Prime Minister now, and he got a lot of things wrong -

:28:28.:28:30.

the result of the referendum was to exit and I agree absolutely,

:28:31.:28:35.

but it was only just, and it was not a clear result

:28:36.:28:38.

in the normal meaning of the word. But you have to have the huge

:28:39.:28:42.

spectrum of outcomes possible. The Prime Minister has now focused

:28:43.:28:51.

on coming out of the single market, almost certainly coming out

:28:52.:28:55.

of the Customs Union. That is a huge shift

:28:56.:28:57.

in terms of where we might Fundamentally difficult

:28:58.:29:00.

for the South-West, and that is why we need to bring the people back

:29:01.:29:04.

into saying yes or no They say the early bird catches

:29:05.:29:07.

the worm, and Lib Dem leader Tim Farron has been in Cornwall this

:29:08.:29:12.

week, making a very early start to campaigning

:29:13.:29:16.

for the local elections in May. The party, which was wiped out

:29:17.:29:20.

in Cornwall at the last general election, is currently the largest

:29:21.:29:22.

group on Cornwall Council. It has also won six out of seven

:29:23.:29:26.

recent by-elections there. But, can the so-called "party

:29:27.:29:29.

of the 48%" really hope for serious Tamsin Melville has been

:29:30.:29:32.

pounding the pavements But it is said time is a healer,

:29:33.:29:36.

and while the Lib Dems fell hard from the dizzy heights of coalition

:29:37.:29:52.

power, on a recent visit to launch the local election

:29:53.:29:58.

campaign in Cornwall, the leader, Tim Farron,

:29:59.:30:00.

is very much on message. The evidence is that the Lib Dems

:30:01.:30:03.

are growing by the day. The Westminster troops may have

:30:04.:30:06.

faced near wipe-out, but there are hopes the party's

:30:07.:30:13.

traditional brand of pavement politics is paying off again,

:30:14.:30:17.

with a string of council by-election wins under their belts

:30:18.:30:20.

here in Cornwall, Devon, It might be a way to

:30:21.:30:22.

start the fightback. We have been Conservative

:30:23.:30:37.

all our lives. And there is nothing

:30:38.:30:39.

to be done about it? But it is time to take

:30:40.:30:41.

a call from Radio 2, interested in Brexit and the party's

:30:42.:30:48.

call for a second referendum. Are you allowed to do

:30:49.:30:51.

that as party leader? From time to time I take the view

:30:52.:30:59.

that it is a better thing to get out there and talk to and listen

:31:00.:31:05.

to normal people. Brexit does loom large

:31:06.:31:07.

on the doorstep. It is a public vote,

:31:08.:31:11.

that's what it should be. So we lose an election, as we do

:31:12.:31:14.

sometimes, what would you do? Just go away and never

:31:15.:31:17.

fight another election? Or respect that result,

:31:18.:31:20.

but keep fighting. Banging the pro-EU drum might be

:31:21.:31:22.

seen as a risky strategy in a place You say the appetite is huge

:31:23.:31:30.

for a Liberal revival. What are you basing that on,

:31:31.:31:36.

these by-election results? You can only go off the results

:31:37.:31:39.

in front of you, and the election results are staggeringly

:31:40.:31:43.

encouraging for us. I was just knocking on doors myself,

:31:44.:31:45.

and people are just open They understand, across Cornwall

:31:46.:31:53.

people kind of know that the battle is between conservatives and

:31:54.:32:02.

Liberal Democrats. Those who lost their seats that

:32:03.:32:03.

night in 2015 know all about not Mr Farron rejects calls from those

:32:04.:32:10.

who say only a rainbow alliance with other parties would see

:32:11.:32:18.

the Lib Dems back in power, and he does not mind the joke

:32:19.:32:20.

he is so unrecognisable a comedian Everyone feels sorry for him,

:32:21.:32:23.

but no-one has a clue who he is. Two or three years of

:32:24.:32:29.

Spitting Image, a relentless assault on Paddy Ashdown -

:32:30.:32:39.

that nobody knows who you are. Everyone knows who he is now,

:32:40.:32:41.

and that is a good thing. It seems to me that you have got

:32:42.:32:44.

to keep going, don't give up, my view is that what makes a good

:32:45.:32:47.

Liberal is that you just keep Lambs to the slaughter

:32:48.:32:51.

maybe, in coalition, but keeping the faith,

:32:52.:32:54.

with a target for now more seats I'm joined by Professor John Moloney

:32:55.:32:57.

from Exeter University's Business School, who has been working

:32:58.:33:04.

on a project looking at the economics of

:33:05.:33:07.

the way people vote. Just to begin with,

:33:08.:33:10.

are the Lib Dems across the region right to be optimistic

:33:11.:33:15.

going into these elections? They won six of the seven

:33:16.:33:20.

last local by-elections. In a sense that is out of date

:33:21.:33:26.

after their spectacular wins They took three Conservative

:33:27.:33:29.

seats, their share of went up 20% in Bovey Tracey,

:33:30.:33:45.

40% in Chudleigh, If you project that to Cornwall,

:33:46.:33:48.

I don't see why that should not happen there as well,

:33:49.:33:52.

I think they should be optimistic. This is the interesting

:33:53.:33:55.

thing with this project you are involved with,

:33:56.:33:56.

the economic reasons I don't think it is about

:33:57.:33:58.

economics at the moment. The Lib Dems are just

:33:59.:34:01.

coming back to the norm It wasn't a cycle, in 2015 it went

:34:02.:34:04.

down to 8% because of the coalition, and they alienated those

:34:05.:34:10.

who preferred Labour. The memory of the coalition

:34:11.:34:13.

is begin to fade already, surprisingly quickly,

:34:14.:34:15.

which is a reason why The Lib Dems have been criticised

:34:16.:34:17.

by some for stridently taking this Do you think that is damaging

:34:18.:34:22.

them, or more likely I don't think it is doing as much

:34:23.:34:28.

damage as some people think. Polls suggest only half

:34:29.:34:36.

of the main voters, if that, Even if they do, it is not

:34:37.:34:39.

top of their agenda. Even if it was, it would not

:34:40.:34:43.

necessarily sway their vote. The only way to find out

:34:44.:34:46.

is if there was a kind of inverse Ukip, if you like,

:34:47.:34:50.

and see how many votes that gap. Robin, on the face of it this

:34:51.:34:53.

all looks very encouraging. John is suggesting you are just

:34:54.:35:04.

getting back to basics to where you were before,

:35:05.:35:08.

where you would expect I think also, in terms

:35:09.:35:10.

of the coalition, some people may disagree that the memory is fading,

:35:11.:35:17.

but people realise that the Lib Dems are a serious party of government

:35:18.:35:20.

these days, and that can be true nationally, and it

:35:21.:35:23.

can be true locally. We actually do things,

:35:24.:35:24.

so they are far clearer Whether this wave of changes

:35:25.:35:27.

and improvement and great results will continue into May,

:35:28.:35:32.

that is very much up No way are we complacent about that,

:35:33.:35:34.

but we expect to do well, The Labour Party doesn't

:35:35.:35:39.

know where it stands, It is very much between us

:35:40.:35:43.

and the Conservatives and how the government will be perceived

:35:44.:35:50.

at that time. Steve, clearly whatever

:35:51.:35:52.

is happening nationally, here in the South-West the Lib Dems

:35:53.:35:56.

are your traditional rivals. You must be feeling some disquiet

:35:57.:35:59.

looking at these by-elections where they are taking seat

:36:00.:36:01.

after seat from the Tories. By-elections are one thing

:36:02.:36:08.

and local government elections Back in 2013, the Lib Dems got

:36:09.:36:10.

the biggest number of seats It bore no relevance whatsoever come

:36:11.:36:15.

the general election of 2015. So I think you have to be able

:36:16.:36:19.

to take it with a pinch of salt, the local government results,

:36:20.:36:23.

and I am happy to stand on our record as Conservatives

:36:24.:36:25.

delivering for Cornwall. Things that Lib Dem MPs had

:36:26.:36:30.

campaigned on and talked about for donkeys years,

:36:31.:36:32.

we are now delivering. Funding for schools, investment

:36:33.:36:40.

in transport infrastructure, so I'm happy as a Conservative

:36:41.:36:42.

to stand up and save the Conservatives are

:36:43.:36:45.

delivering for Cornwall. But isn't it reasonable to surmise

:36:46.:36:46.

that the coalition effect, this line which every Tory candidate

:36:47.:36:49.

in the South-West trotted out, "You vote for Ed Miliband you get

:36:50.:36:56.

the coalition with the SMP", We are under no illusion

:36:57.:36:59.

that the 2020 election will be very The European question will be taken

:37:00.:37:04.

out of the equation. Who knows where Ukip

:37:05.:37:12.

will be, come 2020. The 2020 election will be

:37:13.:37:14.

completely different, but I am confident that,

:37:15.:37:17.

as Conservative MPs in Cornwall, and across the whole

:37:18.:37:20.

of the South-West, we can stand on our record of standing up,

:37:21.:37:24.

representing the South-West The key issue is housing,

:37:25.:37:27.

and housing is getting worse. You have got right to buy

:37:28.:37:31.

on rural properties Parents are concerned

:37:32.:37:33.

about their children. We have just given ?5 million

:37:34.:37:40.

to Cornwall to invest in local needs housing from the levy

:37:41.:37:48.

on second homes, which the Lib Dems talked about for years,

:37:49.:37:51.

and we have actually put Time now for our regular

:37:52.:37:53.

round-up of the political Plans which include cutting

:37:54.:38:00.

the number of police community support officers in Devon

:38:01.:38:11.

and Cornwall Police get the thumbs down from the former

:38:12.:38:14.

Labour candidate for There are going to be

:38:15.:38:15.

about 150 less uniforms out on the streets at the end of it,

:38:16.:38:21.

and they are being replaced The closure of these Devon

:38:22.:38:24.

hospitals isn't just That makes no sense to me or anybody

:38:25.:38:31.

else involved in this process. Fighting talk from Somerset County

:38:32.:38:47.

Council over illegal disputes surrounding the building of a relief

:38:48.:38:49.

road, which could cost I have a duty to defend

:38:50.:38:51.

the taxpayers' pounds And, could Truro become the European

:38:52.:38:54.

capital of culture in 2023? Cornwall Council is spending

:38:55.:39:01.

?500,000 bidding for the title. Steve, you have been critical

:39:02.:39:11.

of this European capital of culture bid from Truro,

:39:12.:39:14.

but it is your government which is encouraging

:39:15.:39:17.

people to apply for it, despite the fact the same government

:39:18.:39:25.

wants to make sure we are well Local people in Cornwall

:39:26.:39:28.

are angry about this. Cornwall Council keep telling us

:39:29.:39:32.

they have got no money. No money to fill potholes or cut

:39:33.:39:34.

the grass or keep our toilets open, but suddenly they have found

:39:35.:39:38.

?500,000 on a speculative bid. Why is your government

:39:39.:39:41.

encouraging them to do it? It is a local decision

:39:42.:39:50.

by Cornwall Council. It is nonsense that they are

:39:51.:39:56.

doing this at a time they have got no money

:39:57.:39:59.

for the things people really want. Isn't it a nonsense to be applying

:40:00.:40:06.

for this when we will almost I am pleased that Steve admits that

:40:07.:40:09.

Cornwall Council has no money because of the central

:40:10.:40:16.

funding going down... But Truro deserves to be

:40:17.:40:17.

the centre of culture. It is the centre of culture

:40:18.:40:19.

in the west of Europe, but the price tag should be less

:40:20.:40:22.

than it is. We need to tell Donald

:40:23.:40:24.

Trump that as well. That is it from the Sunday Politics

:40:25.:40:30.

in the south-west. Welcome back and let's get back

:40:31.:40:39.

to Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees and citizens from seven

:40:40.:40:44.

mainly Muslim countries. Earlier, the Labour leader,

:40:45.:40:49.

Jeremy Corbyn, told ITV that a state visit by President Trump to the UK

:40:50.:40:52.

should not go ahead I think it would be totally wrong

:40:53.:41:05.

for him to be coming here while that situation is going on. He has to be

:41:06.:41:11.

challenged on this. So until the ban is lifted, you don't think he should

:41:12.:41:14.

come? I am not happy about him coming here until the ban is lifted.

:41:15.:41:19.

Look at what is happening with those countries. What will be the long

:41:20.:41:23.

term effect of this on the rest of the world? Is this state visit going

:41:24.:41:28.

to become a matter of huge political debate in this country? It would be

:41:29.:41:35.

anyway, but it is a temporary ban, so Jeremy Corbyn is on safe

:41:36.:41:38.

territory. It will be over by April and he is not due to come until

:41:39.:41:42.

summer. But there are three bands. There is the 90 day ban on people

:41:43.:41:47.

coming from the southern countries. There is the 120 day ban on refugees

:41:48.:41:51.

from anywhere in the world, and there is the indefinite ban on

:41:52.:41:55.

Syrian refugees. So there may still be some bans in place. But bear in

:41:56.:42:02.

mind the number of Syrian refugees and refugees from around the world

:42:03.:42:05.

that President Obama took over his eight years. There were years when

:42:06.:42:09.

it was not even up to 50 Syrian refugees that were taken since the

:42:10.:42:14.

civil war has started. This is an ongoing American policy. 12,500

:42:15.:42:19.

Syrian refugees have come in the last year. Before that, it was a

:42:20.:42:28.

hundred and sometimes under 50. But they are reasonable numbers now,

:42:29.:42:31.

although not something America couldn't absorb. Donald Trump is

:42:32.:42:38.

discovering that being a president is different from being a business

:42:39.:42:41.

man. And Jeremy Corbyn has to learn the art of leadership, having been a

:42:42.:42:45.

backbench MP, and has struggled to do it, as we are about to discuss

:42:46.:42:50.

with article 50. With this, you have to dramatise the politics of this,

:42:51.:42:54.

and this is what he has done with that statement. Most controversial

:42:55.:42:58.

ever state visit now? I would imagine so. Even regardless of any

:42:59.:43:03.

opposition from the opposition to trump's physical presence in the

:43:04.:43:09.

streets, the presence of demonstrators will be an

:43:10.:43:13.

international new story. If trump's demands for the details of the visit

:43:14.:43:17.

are quite as extreme and as picky as some of the Sunday papers have

:43:18.:43:20.

suggested, that could also be the source of controversy. What do you

:43:21.:43:24.

have in mind? Isn't he anxious that only certain members of the Royal

:43:25.:43:30.

Family turn up? He doesn't want a one-on-one with Prince Charles. Who

:43:31.:43:35.

would, though! Some people may be sympathetic on that. It is the one

:43:36.:43:42.

subject where he is in line with British opinion. Playing golf in

:43:43.:43:46.

front of the Queen may be a higher priority. We have to be realistic.

:43:47.:43:51.

Given the other people from around the world that the Queen has played

:43:52.:43:54.

host to, like the Chinese president and Saudi kings and the like, we

:43:55.:43:57.

have had a lot worse come to visit than Donald Trump. Brexit - how

:43:58.:44:03.

serious our neighbour's problems on this? Very serious, but they often

:44:04.:44:07.

are with Europe. Labour were splits when we joined in the 70s, and still

:44:08.:44:15.

won general elections, in 1974 and 1975. There were all over the place

:44:16.:44:17.

in terms of the single currency. Blair said one thing one day and the

:44:18.:44:21.

opposite the next day. Brown did the same.

:44:22.:44:27.

Brown usually set the opposite of what Blair said! They won landslide

:44:28.:44:36.

because they have the political skills to put all of the pressure on

:44:37.:44:40.

the major government, even though their position on the single

:44:41.:44:44.

currency was the same as major's. It is about with Europe the art of

:44:45.:44:49.

leadership. You have to be a political conjuror, you have to

:44:50.:44:53.

dissemble authoritative leak when you lead a divided party over

:44:54.:44:57.

Europe, and Jeremy Corbyn to his personal credit cannot dissemble,

:44:58.:45:02.

but he's not an individual person on this. He's leading a split party in

:45:03.:45:06.

danger of falling apart, and you need the skills of a political

:45:07.:45:12.

conjurer. Clearly self-evidently he's not displaying it because we

:45:13.:45:16.

are talking about the chaotic split which will manifest itself in that

:45:17.:45:20.

vote on Article 50. Labour and the SNP and the Lib Dems too I would

:45:21.:45:25.

have thought will all put amendments down to the short Article 50 piece

:45:26.:45:29.

of legislation. Do they have any chance of succeeding? No substantial

:45:30.:45:35.

world is changing amendments. I don't think Theresa May has much to

:45:36.:45:39.

worry about actually. I think if anything the reason she's pushed the

:45:40.:45:43.

legal appeal is that it helps her to have a big chunk of the media and a

:45:44.:45:48.

big chunk of public opinion worrying that the popular will of last year

:45:49.:45:53.

is in danger of being overturned and so even if it was a completely

:45:54.:45:56.

hopeless legal appeal, it generated headlines for a week that as an

:45:57.:46:01.

incumbent Prime Minister trying to execute believe vote suits you

:46:02.:46:05.

politically. I think it is a much bigger problem for Labour, we've

:46:06.:46:10.

already seen some Shadow Cabinet issues in the previous week. You

:46:11.:46:14.

have got to remember it's not just a majority of Labour MPs that want to

:46:15.:46:19.

stay in the European Union, but a majority of Labour constituencies,

:46:20.:46:24.

and a majority of labour macro voters wanted to stay as well so we

:46:25.:46:29.

have three lines of division. One amendment that might get through if

:46:30.:46:32.

it was called, and it is in the hands of the Deputy speaker who will

:46:33.:46:35.

be chairing these debates, and that will be an amendment that said

:46:36.:46:40.

regardless of how the Europeans treat our citizens in Europe, all EU

:46:41.:46:46.

citizens here will be afforded full rights to remain. That might get

:46:47.:46:52.

through. It may indeed and lots of backbench MPs would backpack. We all

:46:53.:46:58.

know there will not be mass deportations, it is not legal, it

:46:59.:47:04.

won't happen, it is simply a negotiating tactic. I agree with

:47:05.:47:07.

those who say you shouldn't be using people as a negotiating tactic, but

:47:08.:47:11.

the reality as it is the EU leaders that are doing that because it's

:47:12.:47:16.

already been offered. The remain as should be attacking the EU

:47:17.:47:21.

governments for not offering that in return. Article 50 is the easy bit

:47:22.:47:25.

for her. I agree with other members of the panel that she will get it

:47:26.:47:29.

through and the court case almost helps her by getting an easy journey

:47:30.:47:33.

through Parliament, then it gets really difficult. All of this has

:47:34.:47:37.

been a preamble and once she begins that nightmarish negotiation, there

:47:38.:47:43.

will be opportunities for a smart opposition to make quite a lot of

:47:44.:47:49.

the turmoil to come. Whether Labour are capable of that, let's wait and

:47:50.:47:55.

see. The divisions in Labour are nightmarish for them but by no means

:47:56.:47:59.

unprecedented. Arguably it was much more complicated in the early 1970s

:48:00.:48:04.

when you had Titans on either side, big ex-cabinet ministers... Tony

:48:05.:48:12.

Benn... Michael Foot, they were all at it. The fundamental issue of in

:48:13.:48:18.

or out, and they won two elections, so you have got to be really clever.

:48:19.:48:25.

But also how money more Labour MPs will resign. We shall find out this

:48:26.:48:26.

week. The Daily Politics is back

:48:27.:48:28.

tomorrow at midday and all I'll be back here

:48:29.:48:32.

on BBC one next week. Remember - if it's Sunday,

:48:33.:48:35.

it's the Sunday Politics. a free five-a-side tournament

:48:36.:49:09.

that's for everyone.

:49:10.:49:23.

Andrew Neil and Lucie Fisher are joined by Nigel Farage, MEP. The Political Panel consists of Janan Ganesh of the Financial Times, Julia Hartley-Brewer of talkRADIO and journalist Steve Richards.