23/04/2017 Sunday Politics South West


23/04/2017

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It's Sunday afternoon - this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:35.:00:37.

Jeremy Corbyn wants to give everyone in Britain four

:00:38.:00:40.

extra bank holidays - but is the Labour leader up

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to being Prime Minister if he wins the election in just

:00:44.:00:45.

Theresa May says she wants a stronger hand to deliver Brexit -

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how will the Conservatives go about getting the bigger

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I'll be asking Party Chairman, Patrick McLoughlin.

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And I've been in Paris where voters are going to the polls in first

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round of the French Presidential election - what could be the impact

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on the EU and Brexit of this most unpredictable of contests?

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In the South West, the region's army of Conservative MPs face

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invasion from an alliance of Lib Dems and Greens who say

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Will the Remain majority punish the Tories for the decision?

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Or feel they may not like it but the Tories

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And with me has always ready for the marathon task of covering a snap

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general election, even working on bank holidays, the best and

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brightest political panel in the business. David Wooding, Polly

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Toynbee and Toby Young. So Labour's big announcement this

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morning was a crowd pleaser. Four more rainy bank

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holidays to enjoy - one for each of the patron saints

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of England, Scotland, But Mr Corbyn probably won't be

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getting the time off work if he wins And on The Andrew Marr Show this

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morning he was asked what he would do as Prime Minister

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if the security services asked him to authorise a drone strike

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on the leader of Islamic State. What I'd tell them is,

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give me the information you've got, tell me how accurate that is,

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tell me what you I'm asking you about decisions you

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would take as Prime Minister. Can I take you back

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to the whole point? Is the objective

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to start more strikes that may kill many innocent

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people, as has happened? Do you think killing

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the leader of Isis would be I think the leader of Isis not

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being around would be helpful, and I'm no supporter or defender

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in any way of Isis. But I would also argue that

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the bombing campaign has killed a of whom were virtually prisoners of

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Isis. So you've got to think

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about these things. Mr Corbyn earlier. David, is his

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reply refreshing damaging? It is damaging. He has clearly been

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freaked to the fire already in the first week, there will be lots of

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questions on his suitability as a leader and the damage it could cause

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to our national security over the weeks ahead and Andrew Marr has cut

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straight to the chase here. The other thing, of course, is the

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letters of last resort, one of the first duties of a Prime Minister

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when he walks into No 10 is to sign these letters on his own, on or --

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or on her own in a room, a very lonely moment, to decide whether he

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should press the nuclear button and that goes in the Vanguard submarines

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and is opened in the event of a strike and he has dodged a question

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so many times. One must wonder what he would do that. He has to make

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these decisions as Prime Minister. On the Isis point, refreshing or

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damaging? It sure is his base, the people who support him, that's the

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sort of thing they support info and maybe his tactic is that's all he's

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going to get, that is what the polls seem to suggest, in which case they

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will be pleased, and say yes, the man is a man for these who doesn't

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press buttons and shoot people down. But if you want to win you have to

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deal with your own weaknesses and reach out to other people. I think

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most people would say that's not somebody who could defend the

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country. I wonder if he was being totally honest in saying he would

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consider it he would ask for more information. He has previously been

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on the record as being against drone strikes in principle, he's

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campaigned against them, he wants to abolish drones. I think Andrew Marr

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let him off saying it was a drone strike rather than a Navy SEAL or

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SAS operation and he had the fact that they could be collateral

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damage. We that's not his position because he condemned the

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assassination of Osama Bin Laden even though there was no collateral

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damage. David is right on the Trident point, he fetched the

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question. We heard Niall Griffiths on this very show saying Trident,

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the renewal of Trident, would be in the next Labour Party manifesto. It

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turns out now we don't know and when he was asked he said that remains to

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be seen, his re-opened a can of worms. What he has said about

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Trident which was extraordinary was, we will rebuild the submarines but

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not have any nukes on them which is expensive and useless. And of course

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the Labour Party were forced soon after that interview to put out a

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statement saying it is Labour Party policy to renew Trident. So where

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are we? Do we know what the party's policy is? It is to renew Trident

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but he has started this review which involves looking at it all again. We

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know he is a unilateralist to start with but whether he can force this

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through is dubious. Does it matter, though, if the party policy is in

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favour of Trident, if the leader is not? The potential Prime Minister is

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not? They split three ways when they went to vote on it in the Commons.

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The party agreed they were pro-Trident and when it came to the

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vote they split three ways. I think it's difficult for them, it's always

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been a really difficult issue for Labour. The question is whether you

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want to seal off your negatives, whether you really want to try and

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reach out to people. There are an awful lot of people who will like

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what he said, there are an awful lot of people that think we have been

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involved in terrible wars, we have wasted a lot of money and blood and

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let's just get back from the whole thing, let's retreat from the world

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and not try punching above our weight. There is something to be

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said for that and it is a reasonable argument. He's been true to himself

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on this. I think he is and Polly is right, lots of people will agree

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with him, not enough to win a general election, the latest ComRes

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poll shows Tories on 50% and Labour on 25 and as my colleague James

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Forsyth in the Spectator said if this was a boxing match it would

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have been stopped by now by the revelry. We are not stopping, we are

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going on. So the political parties have had

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to move into election mode Stand by for battle buses,

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mail shots and your social media timeline being bombarded

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by political propoganda. But none of this comes cheap -

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Adam's been doing his sums. Democracy is priceless but those

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planes, trains and automobiles used in the last election cost money

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and we know exactly how much, thanks to the Electoral

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Commission database. The Conservatives flew David Cameron

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to every part of the UK in one day on a private plane costing ?29,000,

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in-flight meals extra. They shelled out ?1.2 million

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for adverts on Facebook. The most expensive item was their

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election guru Lynton Crosby. They bought ?2.4 million worth

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of advice and research from his firm Labour's biggest expenditure

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was on good old-fashioned leaflets, costing ?7.4 million

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to print and deliver. Hope they didn't go straight

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into the recycling. Cheap for all the

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enjoyment it gave us. To turn a normal minibus

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into Harriet Harman's pink bus Nick Clegg toured the country doing

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all manner of stunts transported although the party got a grand's

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discount when it broke down. Ukip's then leader Nigel Farage

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was accompanied by bodyguards Nicola Sturgeon's chopper

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cost the SNP ?35,450. Plaid Cymru spent just over

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?1,000 on media training And the Greens spent ?6,912

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promoting their tweets. It adds up to a grand total

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for all the parties of ?37,560,039. Jabbing at my calculator that works

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out at less than ?1 per voter. Adam Fleming there -

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and joining me now is the man responsible for the Conservative

:09:08.:09:12.

election campaigns - for the locals next month

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and the general election in June - Welcome to the programme. The Crown

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Prosecution Service is reviewing evidence from 14 police forces that

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your party breached election spending rules on multiple occasions

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in the last election. What are you going to do differently this time?

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Well, the battle buses are part of the National campaign spend. You saw

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them just on the shot that you did, all three parties had those battle

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buses so that's why we believe they were part of the national spend and

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it was declared that way. At least 30 people in your party, MPs and

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agents, being investigated because they may not have been right to

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include it in the national spend. Are you saying you are going to do

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nothing differently this time? You asked me about last time and the way

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the position is... Was. I asked you about this time. We will take a

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careful count and make sure that everything that we do is within the

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law. But as I say, the last election, all three parties had

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battle buses. It is your party that above all has been investigated by

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14 police forces. You must surely be taking stock of that and working out

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how to do some things differently. You are being investigated because

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you put stuff on the National Ledger which should have been on the local

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constituency ledger. Are you looking at that again? All of the parties

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had battle buses and they all put them on their national spend. I

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don't think any of the parties put them on the local spend. The other

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battle buses were not full of their party activists. Your party stuffed

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these battle buses with activists and took them to constituencies.

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That's the difference. And I ask again, what is different this time?

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Are you going to run the risk of being investigated yet again? We

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believe that we fully compliant with the electoral law as it was. What

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will happen if one of these, or two or three or four or five of these 30

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people, Tory MPs, or agents running campaigns are charged during the

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campaign? As I say I believe we properly declared our election

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expenses. What happens if they are charged? You asking me a

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hypothetical question, the importance of this election is about

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who is in Downing Street in seven weeks' time. Let me clarify this,

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you maintain that in 2015 you did nothing wrong with how you allocated

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the cost and the activities of the battle buses and you would do

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exactly the same this time round? What we did at the last election we

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believe fully complied with the law. So the battle buses this time,

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stocked full of activists, will still be charged to the national

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campaign even when they go to local constituencies? Will they? We will

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be looking at the way we do it, there is new guidance from the

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Electoral Commission out and we will look at that guidance. It is not the

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guidance, it is the lawful stop the Electoral Commission said that, if

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you look at the report they did on us, they said there was one area

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where we had over claimed, over declared, and another area we had

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and declared. We haven't worked out what to do

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yet, have you? We will get on with the campaign and

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start the campaign and I'm looking forward to the campaign.

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I'm trying to work out of the campaign is going to be legal or not

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because last time it seems it could have been illegal.

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I am sure the campaign will be legal.

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You started the campaign warning about the prospect of, the coalition

:12:47.:12:51.

of chaos. Mr Corbyn has ruled out a post-election coalition with the SNP

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and so have the Lib Dems so who is going to be in this coalition?

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Vince Cable said he was looking towards a possible coalition trying

:13:02.:13:03.

to stop a Conservative government. Is not the leader of the Lib Dems.

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He's an important voice in the Lib Dems. Who will be in it? Let's see

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because of the Conservative Party is not re-elected with a strong

:13:14.:13:16.

majority, what will happen? There will be a coalition stopping us

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doing the things we need to do. Who will be in it? It will be a

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coalition of the Labour Party, the SNP and the Liberal party. They have

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ruled it out. I think they would not rule it out if that was the

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situation. Like Theresa May not ruling out an election and then

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changing her mind? The things the Prime Minister said were very clear,

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once she had served Article 50 there was an opportunity, as we know

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today, there is going to be the start of a new government formed in

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France and in September we have the German elections. So it was quite

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right that we didn't get ourselves boxed into a timetable. That is why

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the Prime Minister took the view that they should be a general

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election to give her full strength of an electoral mandate when it

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comes to those negotiations. What about Mr Corbyn's plan for four new

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bank holidays, good idea? I'm not... If we get Corbyn in No 10 Downing St

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we will have a permanent bank holiday of the United Kingdom. We

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will have fewer bank holidays of most other major nations, most about

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major wealthy nations. What about at least one more? Well, look, he's

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talked about four bank holidays. Today would be a bank holiday and

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next Monday would be a bank holiday and the other week was a bank

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holiday too. I don't think it's very well thought out. It sounded more to

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me something like you get in school mock elections rather than proper

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elections. Your party is the self-styled party of the workers and

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you have no plans to give the workers even one extra bank holiday?

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What we want to do is ensure Britain is a strong economy and building on

:14:53.:14:57.

the jobs that we have created since 2010. We were told that by reducing

:14:58.:15:01.

public expenditure unemployment in this country would go up,

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unemployment has gone down and the number of jobs have gone up

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substantially. But no more bank holidays? Well, we will make our

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manifesto in due course but I don't think four bank holidays held in

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April, March and November are very attractive to people. When Ed

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Miliband as leader of the Labour Party suggested the government

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should control energy prices by capping them, the Conservatives

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described that as almost Communist and central planning. Do still take

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that view? You'll see what we have to say on energy prices. I didn't

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you about that, I asked you if you take the view... The Prime Minister

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made a speech at the Conservative Spring conference in which she

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outlined her dissatisfaction about people who are kept locked on a

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standard tariff and those are the issues we will address in the next

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few weeks when the manifesto was published.

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Would that be an act of communism? You will need to see what we say

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when we set out the policies. It could be. You could put a Communist

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act into your manifesto? I don't think you'll find a Communist

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manifesto in a Conservative manifesto which will be launched...

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You are planning to control prices? We will address what we think is

:16:24.:16:28.

unfairness in the energy market. Mr Jeremy Corbyn was reluctant this

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morning to sanction a drone strike. You heard us talking about it

:16:33.:16:38.

earlier against the leader of Islamic State if our intelligence

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services identified him. What would it achieve? When the Prime Minister

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gets certain advice in the national interests, she has to act been that.

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We've seen with Theresa May in her time as Home Secretary and Prime

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Minister, she's not afraid to take those very difficult decisions. What

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we say this morning from Jeremy Corbyn was a his tans, a reluctance.

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I don't think that serves the country well. What would it achieve

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if we take out the head of Islamic State he's replaced by somebody

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else. It brings their organisation into difficulties. It undermines

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their organisation. It shows we'll take every measure to undo an

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organisation which has organised terrorism in different parts of

:17:24.:17:26.

Europe, the UK. I think it is absolutely right the Prime Minister

:17:27.:17:29.

is prepared to take those kind of measures. Jeremy Corbyn said he

:17:30.:17:34.

wasn't prepared to take that. Because he wasn't sure what it would

:17:35.:17:39.

achieve. The Obama administration launched hundreds of drone strikes

:17:40.:17:44.

in various war zones and we in the west are still under attack on a

:17:45.:17:50.

regular basis. Mr Corbyn's basis was what would it achieve? It would

:17:51.:17:56.

achieve a safer position for the UK overall. The war on terrorists. But

:17:57.:18:00.

the Westminster attack, Paris has just been attacked again? There's

:18:01.:18:05.

been attacks which have been stopped by the intelligence services. We

:18:06.:18:09.

must do all we can to support them. The question was about drone

:18:10.:18:13.

strikes. Whether it is drone strikes or other action, we have to be

:18:14.:18:18.

prepared to act. Let's move on to Brexit. It is the major reason the

:18:19.:18:21.

Prime Minister's called the election? Not the only within but

:18:22.:18:26.

the main reason? It is one of the reasons. Now we start the two-year

:18:27.:18:30.

negotiations and then a year afterwards. Also the way in which

:18:31.:18:35.

certain people said they would try to use in the House of Lords or

:18:36.:18:38.

House of Commons to prevent us making progress. I think you'll put

:18:39.:18:45.

in your manifesto, it is the Government's policy, the Brexit

:18:46.:18:51.

negotiating position will be no more freedom of movement. Leave the

:18:52.:18:58.

single market and no longer under the jurisdiction Europe. You expect

:18:59.:19:01.

every Tory MP to fight on that manifesto. What will you do with Ken

:19:02.:19:07.

Clarke and Anna? They will have fought on their manifesto. They will

:19:08.:19:11.

understand the Prime Minister has the authority of the ballot box

:19:12.:19:14.

behind them. Will they fight the election on these positions? I'm

:19:15.:19:20.

sure they'll fight the election supporting the election of a

:19:21.:19:24.

Conservative Government and it's manifesto will quite clearly set

:19:25.:19:28.

out... You know they're against these positions. Ken Clarke has a

:19:29.:19:33.

prod tradition of expressing a certain view. Overall, the party's

:19:34.:19:37.

manifesto, it is not just individuals like Ken Clarke, it is

:19:38.:19:41.

what happens as far as the House of Lords are concerned, people said

:19:42.:19:45.

they'd use the House of Lords to prevent certain measures. You're the

:19:46.:19:49.

party chairman, will it be possible for people like Ken Clarke to fight

:19:50.:19:54.

this election under the Conservative ticket without sub describing to all

:19:55.:19:59.

-- subscribing to all of these Brexit conditions? Ken Clarke will

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fight as Conservative candidates. That wasn't my question. I know

:20:06.:20:10.

that. Will they be allowed to fight it on their own ticket and not

:20:11.:20:14.

subscribe to what is in your manifesto? The manifesto will be

:20:15.:20:18.

what the Conservative Party fights the General Election on. There will

:20:19.:20:22.

always be cases where people have had different views on different

:20:23.:20:28.

parts of the manifesto. That will be the guiding principles for the

:20:29.:20:34.

party. Philip Hammond says your election promises in 2015, in your

:20:35.:20:39.

manifesto not to raise taxes tied his hands when it came to managing

:20:40.:20:43.

the economy. Do you agree with him? No. The simple fact is we have to do

:20:44.:20:47.

the best things for the economy. We'll set out in our manifesto in a

:20:48.:20:52.

few weeks' time, what the policies will be for the next Parliament. Can

:20:53.:20:57.

I clarify, you don't agree with your Chancellor? What Philip was saying

:20:58.:21:03.

was some of the areas we wants to address as Chancellor, what the

:21:04.:21:08.

party will do, it will set out all the issues we're fighting on. It

:21:09.:21:11.

will set out clearly the choice we have in this country. That's the

:21:12.:21:15.

important thing. Let me put the question to you again. Philip

:21:16.:21:19.

Hammond said this week your election promise in 2015 not to raise taxes

:21:20.:21:23.

had tied his hands when it came to managing the economy. I ask you, do

:21:24.:21:29.

you agree with him? You said no. Philip expressed his view as to what

:21:30.:21:34.

he would like. What I'm saying is in a few weeks' time we'll set the

:21:35.:21:39.

manifesto which will set the policies, agreed with the the

:21:40.:21:43.

Cabinet. He's Chancellor. Doesn't he determine what the economic part of

:21:44.:21:46.

the manifesto is? We'll talk about that in due course. Will you have a

:21:47.:21:52.

lock on the taxes that you locked in 2015 on income tax, VAT, national

:21:53.:21:57.

insurance? That will be decided. You'll see that when we publish the

:21:58.:22:04.

manifesto in a few weeks' time. Will you rule out the possibility taxes

:22:05.:22:08.

may have to rise under a future Conservative Party? Conservative

:22:09.:22:13.

Government. We've taken four million people out of tax. Now, on average,

:22:14.:22:19.

people are paying ?1200 less tax than they were on the same salaries

:22:20.:22:25.

in 2010. I'm very provide of that. I can assure you, the Conservative

:22:26.:22:27.

Party will want to see taxes reduced. It is the Labour Party

:22:28.:22:31.

which will put up taxes. We have the evidence where this he did so.

:22:32.:22:37.

Council tax went up by over 100%. You haven't reduced the tax burden

:22:38.:22:43.

as a percentage of the GDP is now going to reach its highest level

:22:44.:22:48.

since the mid-180s which was when Conservatives were in power. The tax

:22:49.:22:54.

burden in this country under your Government is rising? We've more

:22:55.:22:57.

people paying taxes which is something, because we've a growing

:22:58.:23:00.

economy and more people... What about the tax band? You said you

:23:01.:23:05.

reduced the tax burden on your own Government's figures is rising? We

:23:06.:23:10.

have reduced the tax burden. The threshold at which people start

:23:11.:23:15.

paying. These are tax rates not the tax burden. It is rising. The tax

:23:16.:23:21.

rates have been reduced. You said tax burden. Perhaps I misspoke. Tax

:23:22.:23:26.

rates have been reduced. We'll leave it there. No doubt we'll speak again

:23:27.:23:34.

between now and June Is France now about to make it

:23:35.:23:35.

a hat-trick of shocks The prospect terrifies

:23:36.:23:40.

the governing elite in Paris. But they're no less scared

:23:41.:23:43.

in Brussels and Berlin, given what it could mean

:23:44.:23:45.

for the whole EU project, never mind the huge potential impact

:23:46.:23:48.

on our own Brexit negotiations. 11 candidates are contesting

:23:49.:24:07.

the first round of the presidential Only the top two will go forward

:24:08.:24:10.

to the run-off on May 7th. For the first time since General De

:24:11.:24:16.

Gaulle created the fifth Republic in 1958, it's perfectly possible that

:24:17.:24:21.

no candidate from the ruling parties of the centre-left or the

:24:22.:24:25.

centre-right will even make it The election has been dominated by

:24:26.:24:28.

the hard right in the shape of the who's never been elected

:24:29.:24:35.

to anything and only started his own party

:24:36.:24:42.

a few months ago. And the far left in the form

:24:43.:24:44.

of Jean-Luc Melenchon, a former Trotskyite who has surged

:24:45.:24:47.

in the final weeks of the campaign. The only candidate left from the

:24:48.:24:51.

traditional governing parties is the centre-right's

:24:52.:24:54.

Francois Fillon and he's been struggling to stay in

:24:55.:24:57.

the race ever since it was revealed that his Welsh wife was being paid

:24:58.:25:00.

at generous public expense for a job I've just come across

:25:01.:25:05.

this magazine cover and it kind of sums up the mood

:25:06.:25:20.

of the French people. It's got the five main candidates

:25:21.:25:23.

for President here but it calls them the biggest liar, the biggest cheat,

:25:24.:25:26.

the biggest traitor, the most paranoid, the biggest demagogue,

:25:27.:25:29.

and it says they are the winners The four leading candidates,

:25:30.:25:32.

Le Pen, Melenchon, Macron and Fillon, or in with a chance

:25:33.:25:43.

of making it to the second round. Only a couple of points separates

:25:44.:25:46.

them in the polls, Frankly, no one has a clue what's

:25:47.:25:48.

going to happen. Of the four, there is a feeling that

:25:49.:25:54.

two of them may be President But the two of them may not find

:25:55.:26:00.

themselves in the second round. Somebody said to me that the man or

:26:01.:26:13.

woman on the Paris Metro has as much a chance of knowing

:26:14.:26:26.

who will win as the greatest experts Because the more expert you are

:26:27.:26:30.

the more you may be wrong. The country has largely

:26:31.:26:37.

stagnated for over a decade. One in ten are unemployed,

:26:38.:26:42.

one in four if you are unlucky Like Britain in the '70s there is

:26:43.:26:45.

the pervasive stench There are three keywords that come

:26:46.:26:49.

to mind. Anger, anger at the elite, and in

:26:50.:26:56.

particular the political elite. And an element of

:26:57.:27:03.

nostalgia for the past. These three words were decisive

:27:04.:27:09.

in the Brexit referendum. They are decisive in

:27:10.:27:13.

the French election. Identity and security has been

:27:14.:27:24.

as important in this election France is a proud nation, it worries

:27:25.:27:28.

about its future in Europe It seems bereft of ideas about how

:27:29.:27:35.

to deal with its largely Muslim migrant population, huge chunks of

:27:36.:27:39.

which are increasingly divorced It is quite simply exhausted by

:27:40.:27:43.

the never-ending Islamist terrorist attacks, the latest only days before

:27:44.:27:54.

voting in the iconic heart of this If Fillon or Macron emerge

:27:55.:27:57.

victorious then there will be continuity of sorts, though Fillon

:27:58.:28:08.

will struggle to implement his Thatcherite agenda and Macron will

:28:09.:28:12.

not be able to count on the support of the French parliament, the

:28:13.:28:16.

National Assembly, for his reforms. But if it's Le Pen or Jean-Luc

:28:17.:28:19.

Melenchon then all bets are off. Both are hardline French

:28:20.:28:25.

nationalists, anti the euro, anti the European Union, anti-fiscal

:28:26.:28:28.

discipline, anti the market, Either in the Elysee Palace

:28:29.:28:31.

would represent an existential Brexit would simply become

:28:32.:28:40.

a sideshow, the negotiations could just peter out as Brussels

:28:41.:28:49.

and Berlin had bigger fish to fry. We're joined now from

:28:50.:28:53.

Paris by the journalist 8th Welcome to the programme.

:28:54.:29:05.

Overshadowing the voting today was yet another appalling terrorist

:29:06.:29:09.

attack in Paris on Thursday night. Do we have any indications of how

:29:10.:29:15.

that's playing into the election? That initially people thought this

:29:16.:29:19.

has been almost foiled in that the police were there as a ramp up. One

:29:20.:29:25.

policeman was killed. But the terrorist did not spray the crowd

:29:26.:29:29.

with bullets. It was seen as not having much of an effect on the

:29:30.:29:34.

election. This has changed. We now know the policeman who was killed, a

:29:35.:29:41.

young man about to the promoted, he was at the Bataclan the night of the

:29:42.:29:46.

terror attack. He was a fighter for LGBT rights. The fact he was

:29:47.:29:53.

promoted, happy within his job, he has this fresh face. Sudden, he's

:29:54.:29:59.

one of us. It took perhaps 48 hours for the French to process this. But

:30:00.:30:05.

now they're angry and this may actually change the game, at least

:30:06.:30:11.

at the margins. To whose advantage? I would say the two who might

:30:12.:30:18.

benefit from this are Marine Le Pen, she's been absolutely

:30:19.:30:22.

anti-immigration, anti-anything. And made no bones about it as she

:30:23.:30:27.

immediately made rather strange announcement in which she'd said if

:30:28.:30:30.

she'd been president none of the terror attacks which happened in

:30:31.:30:34.

France would have happened. Francois Fillon has written a book two years

:30:35.:30:42.

ago called Combating Islamic Terrorism he's has an organised plan

:30:43.:30:46.

in his manifesto. Unlike Emmanuel Macron who stumbled when he was

:30:47.:30:50.

asked the evening this happened what he thought, he said, I can't dream

:30:51.:30:54.

up an anti-terror programme overnight. The question, of course,

:30:55.:30:58.

that arrows was this is not the sort of thing that's just happened

:30:59.:31:02.

overnight. It's been unfortunately the fate of France for many years.

:31:03.:31:08.

Let me ask you this finally, what ever the outcome on May 7th in the

:31:09.:31:13.

second round, who ever wins, would it be fair to say French politics

:31:14.:31:19.

will never be the same again? Yes. Absolutely it's a very strange

:31:20.:31:22.

thing. People have no become really excited about this. You cannot go

:31:23.:31:26.

anywhere without people discussing heatedly this election. The anger

:31:27.:31:31.

that was described is very accurate. Very true. There was this feeling as

:31:32.:31:37.

for the Brexit voters and the Trump voters, vast parts of the people

:31:38.:31:42.

were being talked down to by people who despised them. This has to

:31:43.:31:48.

change. If it doesn't change, we cannot predict what the future will

:31:49.:31:53.

be. We'll know the results or at least the ex-the Poll London time

:31:54.:31:58.

tonight at 8.00pm. Thank for joining us from the glorious heart of your

:31:59.:32:00.

city. Now, the Green Party currently has

:32:01.:32:04.

one MP and they'll be contesting many more seats in June

:32:05.:32:07.

as well as hoping to increase their presence on councils in

:32:08.:32:10.

the local elections on 4th May. Launching their campaign

:32:11.:32:12.

on Thursday, co-leader Caroline Lucas made

:32:13.:32:14.

a pitch to younger voters. When it comes to young

:32:15.:32:16.

people they've been But one crucial way they've been

:32:17.:32:18.

betrayed is by what this generation and this government and the previous

:32:19.:32:23.

ones have been doing when it comes We know we had the hottest year

:32:24.:32:26.

on record last year, you know, you almost think what else does

:32:27.:32:31.

the environment need to be doing All the signs are there

:32:32.:32:34.

and it is young people who are going to be bearing

:32:35.:32:37.

the brunt of a wrecked environment and that's why it's so important

:32:38.:32:40.

that when we come to making that pitch to, yes, the country at large

:32:41.:32:44.

but to young people in particular, I think climate change,

:32:45.:32:46.

the environment, looking after our precious resources,

:32:47.:32:48.

has to be up there. And I'm joined now by the Green

:32:49.:32:53.

MEP, Molly Scott Cato. Welcome back to the programme.

:32:54.:33:07.

Promised to scrap university tuition fees, increase NHS funding, rollback

:33:08.:33:11.

cuts to local councils spending, how much would that cost and how would

:33:12.:33:15.

you pay for it? Like the other parties we haven't got a costed

:33:16.:33:18.

manifesto yet, it's only a few days since the election was announced so

:33:19.:33:21.

I will come back and explain the figures. You don't know? Like every

:33:22.:33:25.

party we have not produced accosted manifesto yet, we produced one last

:33:26.:33:31.

time but public spending figures have changed so we're not in a

:33:32.:33:34.

position to do that but we will be in a week or so. What taxes would

:33:35.:33:39.

you like to consider raising? We would consider having higher taxes

:33:40.:33:43.

for the better off in society. I think we need to increase the amount

:33:44.:33:48.

of tax wealthier people pay. How do you define better off? I'm not

:33:49.:33:51.

entirely clear what the precise number would be but I think 100,000

:33:52.:33:57.

people would pay a bit more, 150,000 quite considerably more but the real

:33:58.:34:01.

focus needs to be on companies avoiding paying taxes. I work on

:34:02.:34:04.

that a lot in my role in the European Parliament, we see an

:34:05.:34:07.

enormous amount of tax avoidance by companies moving profits from

:34:08.:34:10.

country to country and we need European corporation to make that

:34:11.:34:14.

successful. It has not made much difference yet. We have made lots of

:34:15.:34:20.

changes. Google turned over $1 billion and only paid 25 million in

:34:21.:34:23.

taxes last year. There was a significant fine introduced by the

:34:24.:34:28.

competition commission on Apple and in the case of Google we must change

:34:29.:34:32.

the laws so that people cannot move profits from country to country.

:34:33.:34:38.

Everybody wants to do it. But you couldn't face a big spending

:34:39.:34:41.

programme on the ability to do that. You'd have to increase other taxes.

:34:42.:34:45.

If you look at the cost of free student tuition, tuition fees and

:34:46.:34:48.

also maintenance grants to students, that would come in at about 10

:34:49.:34:51.

billion a year. One way of paying for that would be to remove the

:34:52.:34:55.

upper threshold on National Insurance, bringing in 20 billion a

:34:56.:34:58.

year, that's the order of magnitude we are talking about. It is not

:34:59.:35:03.

vast, and some of the proposals we have... That would be an increase on

:35:04.:35:07.

the better of tax? National Insurance on people earning...

:35:08.:35:14.

People earning above 42,000. You would have another 10% tax above

:35:15.:35:18.

42,000? I can't remember exactly how much the National Insurance rate

:35:19.:35:24.

changes by. But in government figures it would be 28 billion

:35:25.:35:28.

raised. I think it is up to 45, a bit more you pay a marginal rate of

:35:29.:35:31.

40%, you would have them pay a marginal rate of over 50%? We would

:35:32.:35:36.

put the National Insurance rate on higher incomes the same as it is on

:35:37.:35:40.

lower incomes. If you are a school head of an English department on 50,

:35:41.:35:44.

60,000 a year you would face a marginal rate under U of over 50%?

:35:45.:35:50.

It is not useful to do this as a mental maths exercise but if you

:35:51.:35:55.

look at other proposals would could have a landlord licensing system,

:35:56.:35:59.

longer term leases on properties, so young people particularly, but also

:36:00.:36:02.

older people who rent, could have more security which needn't cost

:36:03.:36:05.

anything. We could insist on landlords paying for that. The

:36:06.:36:09.

mental arithmetic seems clear but we will come back to that. How is the

:36:10.:36:13.

Progressive Alliance coming? It is going well, I have heard of a lot of

:36:14.:36:18.

interest at local level. Winterset this in contest, context, lots of

:36:19.:36:23.

progressives are concerned about the crisis in public services, prisons,

:36:24.:36:27.

social care system, and also about the Tories' hard extreme Brexit they

:36:28.:36:31.

are threatening. You want the left to come together? Theresa May has

:36:32.:36:36.

given us opportunity, she has taken a risk because she has problems with

:36:37.:36:39.

backbenchers, she doesn't think she can get through Brexit with a small

:36:40.:36:42.

majority so there is an opportunity and we are saying progressives must

:36:43.:36:46.

come together to corporate, Conservatives are effective at using

:36:47.:36:48.

the first-past-the-post system and we have to become effective as well.

:36:49.:36:54.

Do you accept this Progressive Alliance cannot become the

:36:55.:36:57.

government and Mr Corbyn is the Prime Minister? How could it happen

:36:58.:37:01.

otherwise? I think that is a secondary question. For me the

:37:02.:37:05.

primary question is who do people choose to vote for? Aluminium

:37:06.:37:08.

government afterwards comes after the election. In most countries that

:37:09.:37:12.

is the case. I understand that but we have the system we have and you

:37:13.:37:15.

accept this Progressive Alliance cannot be in power and thus mystical

:37:16.:37:19.

Burmese Prime Minister? Personally I think Mr Corbyn is less of a threat

:37:20.:37:22.

to the country than Theresa May, she has shown herself to be an

:37:23.:37:25.

authoritarian leader and she has said she doesn't want to have

:37:26.:37:31.

dissidents, which I would say is reasonable opposition, and what we

:37:32.:37:34.

are suggesting at the moment is there is a way of avoiding that very

:37:35.:37:36.

hard Brexit and damage to public services. You'd be happy to pay the

:37:37.:37:39.

price of having Mr Corbyn as Prime Minister? I do not see that as a

:37:40.:37:44.

price. People have the choice of Jeremy Corbyn or Theresa May as

:37:45.:37:47.

Prime Minister, that's the system that works. You would prefer Mr

:37:48.:37:52.

Corbyn? I would but votes are translated into seats and the

:37:53.:37:54.

Progressive Alliance is a step towards that.

:37:55.:37:56.

It's just gone 3:50pm, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:37:57.:37:58.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, Wales

:37:59.:38:00.

and Northern Ireland who leave us now.

:38:01.:38:02.

Hello, I'm Martyn Oates. minutes, the Week Ahead.

:38:03.:38:15.

Coming up on the Sunday Politics here in the South West:

:38:16.:38:18.

Will Labour's new pro-Corbyn members in Plymouth get out

:38:19.:38:22.

on the doorstep for a candidate from the centre-left?

:38:23.:38:26.

I want people who are real, I don't want people who are fake.

:38:27.:38:29.

They're not faking it, they're actually

:38:30.:38:31.

believing it, they're living it, they want to be a Labour candidate

:38:32.:38:34.

and they want to be part of a Labour government led by Jeremy Corbyn.

:38:35.:38:38.

And for the next 20 minutes, I'm joined by the Lib Dem

:38:39.:38:41.

peer Judith Jolly, and by Ernie Warrender,

:38:42.:38:43.

who's hoping to stand for Ukip in June's general election.

:38:44.:38:46.

Welcome, both of you, to the programme.

:38:47.:38:51.

To kick things off, should this election be all about Brexit, Ernie?

:38:52.:39:01.

It's probably going to be but it's virtually a cynical hijacking of

:39:02.:39:06.

democracy. I feel terribly sorry for Northern Ireland because they will

:39:07.:39:10.

have to vote again. This isn't about electing a government. In my view

:39:11.:39:14.

that is pretty much done deal. This is about electing an effective

:39:15.:39:19.

opposition, and what you have is 17.3 million people who voted for

:39:20.:39:24.

Brexit, Brexit, Lead, exit, they knew what they were voting for

:39:25.:39:30.

clearly, and there are serious concerns that Theresa May will not

:39:31.:39:34.

deliver on immigration, people are worried about fisheries. By putting

:39:35.:39:40.

Ukip MPs in Parliament to counter the virtually 100% Remain, has to be

:39:41.:39:48.

done. Judith, you and your leader want to make this about Brexit as

:39:49.:39:52.

well from the opposing sides. We were watching something about

:39:53.:39:54.

manifestos earlier and our manifesto will not be all about Brexit. There

:39:55.:40:01.

is a whole issue around health and social care. It looks like it has

:40:02.:40:06.

been knocked into the long grass but it is a disaster waiting to happen.

:40:07.:40:11.

It is not just about Brexit. We have a distinctive view on Brexit,

:40:12.:40:15.

clearly, and you Anae so far seriously disagree, but... There

:40:16.:40:23.

will be More Of That, I suspect. There will be More Of That. As the

:40:24.:40:25.

programme wears on. Once again, the South West looks

:40:26.:40:29.

like playing a central role in the election,

:40:30.:40:31.

with particular focus here on the traditional tussle

:40:32.:40:33.

between the Conservatives The former will be fighting to keep

:40:34.:40:35.

all the seats they gained The latter will be equally

:40:36.:40:39.

determined to get them back. And, keen not to be left out,

:40:40.:40:42.

some of the other parties in the fray are already talking

:40:43.:40:45.

about pre-election deals Tim Farron rolled into Truro

:40:46.:40:47.

on local election business just an hour after Theresa May

:40:48.:40:59.

called the snap election, but the Lib Dems, the party of pavement

:41:00.:41:03.

politics, say they are The Liberal Democrats have been

:41:04.:41:06.

calling for an early election, and we've been ready

:41:07.:41:11.

for an early election, The party machine is

:41:12.:41:13.

already up and running, local elections, but with a June

:41:14.:41:19.

the 8th poll, familiar faces are encouraging tactical voting,

:41:20.:41:23.

where the Lib Dems are in a strong In those seats, we would

:41:24.:41:26.

clearly be encouraging, indeed, even members

:41:27.:41:32.

of parties that came third, fourth, fifth last time,

:41:33.:41:36.

to perhaps think carefully about whether they want to have an MP

:41:37.:41:39.

who maybe isn't entirely to their liking, but at least firstly is not

:41:40.:41:44.

a Conservative, and secondly is someone who at least

:41:45.:41:48.

is on the progressive centre-left. There is one place

:41:49.:41:54.

in Cornwall where the Green vote alone would have been

:41:55.:41:55.

enough to get the Lib Dems over This is Andrew George's

:41:56.:41:58.

old constituency, where the Conservatives beat

:41:59.:42:03.

him by 2,500 votes. The maths is simple,

:42:04.:42:06.

but for now, cards are being Certainly there are places,

:42:07.:42:13.

St Ives and others around the country, where Greens

:42:14.:42:17.

can make a difference. In other constituencies,

:42:18.:42:19.

the Lib Dems themselves can make a difference to the outcome,

:42:20.:42:21.

so what we want to be able to do is to have talks,

:42:22.:42:24.

to look at this as fast as possible, given the very short time

:42:25.:42:27.

we have before the election, to see But as in any battle,

:42:28.:42:30.

it's not all one-sided. Some in Ukip are keen to keep Brexit

:42:31.:42:35.

top of the agenda, and are considering playing

:42:36.:42:39.

a similar card. My opinion is that we need to be

:42:40.:42:42.

very clever, and not necessarily stand wherever we can,

:42:43.:42:45.

like we have done in the past. In the referendum,

:42:46.:42:49.

George Eustice was superb. He led from the front,

:42:50.:42:53.

as did Cheryl Murray and Scott Mann, so I don't see why

:42:54.:42:55.

we would want to consider getting And while the Greens

:42:56.:42:58.

this week made an offer to step aside in Plymouth,

:42:59.:43:04.

where the race is traditionally Labour

:43:05.:43:06.

versus Tory, the question is, should

:43:07.:43:07.

the Lib Dems be doing the same? There will be places

:43:08.:43:11.

in the country where Liberal Democrat supporters would be

:43:12.:43:15.

wise to vote Labour if they want to Parties of all colours

:43:16.:43:20.

will be holding talks this week, with any deals needed

:43:21.:43:26.

to be decided on very soon, amid warnings by some Conservatives that

:43:27.:43:30.

electoral pacts are undemocratic. And to discuss this,

:43:31.:43:36.

we're joined by the MP for Camborne and Redruth,

:43:37.:43:40.

George Eustice. He was mentioned in the report and

:43:41.:43:51.

joins us from London. We heard there from Bob Smith, your Ukip opponent

:43:52.:43:56.

in 2015. I think the number of votes they garnered was the size of your

:43:57.:44:00.

majority. Presumably would be delighted if he stood aside this

:44:01.:44:05.

time. The reality is, I was a former Ukip candidate in 1999, but their

:44:06.:44:10.

job is done. This country voted to leave the EU, Ukip was a single

:44:11.:44:14.

issue party set up to campaign for that, and what we

:44:15.:44:27.

need to be Theresa May, which is why we need this general election to

:44:28.:44:33.

clear the air so we have strong and stable leadership going into these

:44:34.:44:37.

vital negotiations. I want to come to this issue of electoral pacts and

:44:38.:44:43.

parties standing aside. Ernie, you heard your Ukip colleague Bob Smith

:44:44.:44:46.

saying in three seats in Cornwall they shouldn't stand. You hope you

:44:47.:44:52.

will and can stand. I have to say I would sooner stick my sensitive

:44:53.:44:55.

places in the mouth of a hungry lion than do a pact with the Tories. We

:44:56.:45:00.

saw what they did to the Lib Dems, they destroyed them. Your job is

:45:01.:45:02.

done, George, it's a reasonable point,

:45:03.:45:22.

isn't it? The job isn't done, because when you look at the papers

:45:23.:45:24.

and all the comments, Theresa May was a Remainer, her Chancellor was a

:45:25.:45:26.

Remainer, the Brexit committee is 11-7 remain, chaired by Hilary Benn,

:45:27.:45:30.

the job is not done in any way, and you need Ukip MPs. Plus it is not a

:45:31.:45:33.

single issue party. When you look at our manifesto, suddenly, the Tories

:45:34.:45:35.

have had a Damascene change on grammar schools, the NHS, respect

:45:36.:45:37.

for the Armed Forces, it is not single issue any more. Will George

:45:38.:45:42.

Eustice face a Ukip challenge? Paul Nuttall was suggesting they could

:45:43.:45:46.

have him. My view, and we are all inputting into the manifesto at the

:45:47.:45:50.

moment, if you must give four million people the opportunity to

:45:51.:45:54.

take a purple and yellow box. It is hijacking democracy if you don't.

:45:55.:45:59.

Judith, in terms of pacts, Andrew George also said this week that he

:46:00.:46:03.

would consider it wise for Lib Dem supporters in some constituencies to

:46:04.:46:10.

vote Labour. This is nothing new. People voted tactically, but it is

:46:11.:46:15.

new to have parties actually saying, vote for an opposing party.

:46:16.:46:19.

Certainly, the Green Party were very helpful to us when we won Richmond

:46:20.:46:28.

recently. I am not party to any deals or conversations about deals

:46:29.:46:32.

in Cornwall, but I wouldn't be surprised if conversations were

:46:33.:46:35.

happening. Whether there will be deals or not, I really don't know,

:46:36.:46:41.

but again, we are very keen to give the country an opportunity to vote

:46:42.:46:46.

Lib Dem in the same way Ernie has described. Sorry to interject, can I

:46:47.:46:51.

just say that at the end of the day, when you say a deal, a deal as a two

:46:52.:46:56.

way event, and it won't be with the Tory party or the Labour Party or

:46:57.:47:01.

the Lib Dems. Can I come in and say, let the other parties talk about

:47:02.:47:05.

pacts and coalitions. This is not a time for some coalition between

:47:06.:47:15.

Ukip, labour, the Green Party and the Lib Dems, to try and do

:47:16.:47:18.

negotiation. This is a time for strong and stable leadership which

:47:19.:47:20.

is why we need Theresa May. Do you think the Lib Dems would going to

:47:21.:47:24.

four way packed? This is not a tie for some chaotic coalition and pact,

:47:25.:47:27.

-- not a time, this is a time for clarity of leadership to get the

:47:28.:47:32.

negotiations right, which needs to be Theresa May negotiating. George,

:47:33.:47:36.

it looks and sounds as if you are cutting to the chase in terms of

:47:37.:47:39.

what might be one of the main messages from the Tory campaign,

:47:40.:47:43.

which is you risk getting this coalition of chaos. Of course, last

:47:44.:47:55.

time you push the line that there was a risk of Ed Miliband's Labour

:47:56.:47:57.

ruling the country with the SNP. Isn't there a problem that with the

:47:58.:48:00.

polls as they are, if people think the Conservatives are likely to get

:48:01.:48:03.

a majority, places like Cornwall and Devon might say, if that will happen

:48:04.:48:05.

anyway, we would rather have an opposition MP and not give the

:48:06.:48:08.

government this overwhelming documents at Westminster? I know and

:48:09.:48:13.

safe seats in the West Country, and safe seats in the West Country, and

:48:14.:48:18.

it is always hotly contested. I was first elected with a majority of

:48:19.:48:22.

just 66 and understand the volatility of the West Country. We

:48:23.:48:26.

take nothing for granted and will be campaigning day in, day out, getting

:48:27.:48:29.

the message across that this country needs strong, stable leadership but

:48:30.:48:33.

also the record the Conservatives have delivered as MPs. When we had

:48:34.:48:37.

Lib Dems they used a point out problems and solve nothing. Since we

:48:38.:48:43.

have Conservative MPs, local Conservative candidates elected,

:48:44.:48:47.

they have delivered, getting investment in hospitals and

:48:48.:48:49.

infrastructure, creating jobs. That's what we need. Judith. I would

:48:50.:48:57.

take issue with that. Certainly it is the role of an MP, we were having

:48:58.:49:02.

this discussion earlier, to talk to ministers and put things on, but to

:49:03.:49:07.

suggest Lib Dems never do that is very disingenuous. Isn't this the

:49:08.:49:11.

case, and if this is the key message from the Conservatives, but at the

:49:12.:49:17.

last election, the message that voting Lib Dem could facilitate

:49:18.:49:23.

labour - SNP coalition was deadly to use. Yes. So this time you should be

:49:24.:49:29.

worried talking about a coalition of chaos. Yes and no Mac, I am not

:49:30.:49:34.

worried. We are going out and explaining what our policies are.

:49:35.:49:39.

Our manifesto will be out in the next week I would imagine along with

:49:40.:49:43.

the others, and we will do that. In fact we have just had to say to all

:49:44.:49:47.

those campaigning for local councils, thank you very much but

:49:48.:49:50.

you can have a day off after the election and we are back on the

:49:51.:49:55.

doors, so that is what we shall do. Can I just say, George is saying

:49:56.:49:59.

what a great job the Tories have done, I remember them campaigning

:50:00.:50:04.

very strongly on getting broadband, communication systems, going in the

:50:05.:50:07.

West Country. It is better in parts of Africa. It is appalling. That is

:50:08.:50:18.

a simple nonsense. Cornwall have high-speed broadband... Big problems

:50:19.:50:23.

in Devon and Somerset, to be fair. They had European money, but that is

:50:24.:50:30.

another debate! 10 million has gone into piloting broadband in the most

:50:31.:50:33.

remote areas and we are constantly putting money into rolling out

:50:34.:50:37.

broadband in moral areas. George Eustice, thank you for joining us.

:50:38.:50:39.

If the last election was disastrous for the Lib Dems,

:50:40.:50:41.

it wasn't great for Labour either - Exeter's Ben Bradshaw is the party's

:50:42.:50:45.

In June, Labour will be hoping to regain at least

:50:46.:50:48.

one seat in Plymouth, but the selection of candidates

:50:49.:50:50.

is still to be finalised, and opinion as to whether

:50:51.:50:53.

the present leadership offers a glorious opportunity or a massive

:50:54.:50:55.

You have got 50 days between now and possibly changing

:50:56.:51:06.

A rare insight into the ranks of Corbyn's footsoldiers.

:51:07.:51:09.

No covert operations here, they say, just passionate politics.

:51:10.:51:12.

How about we have a session where we start to

:51:13.:51:14.

But there are a few thorny questions, chiefly,

:51:15.:51:21.

who fronts up and leads the charge in Plymouth?

:51:22.:51:24.

Whose name will be spelt out on the ballot paper?

:51:25.:51:28.

And I hereby declare that Oliver Colville

:51:29.:51:30.

is duly elected to serve as the member of Parliament for the said

:51:31.:51:33.

The Plymouth Sutton and Devonport seat is number eight on

:51:34.:51:39.

Labour's national target list, and at number 14 is the neighbouring

:51:40.:51:41.

constituency of Moor View, lost by Alison Seabeck in 2015.

:51:42.:51:48.

She is a Corbyn sceptic, who this week said she

:51:49.:51:51.

wouldn't be going over the top this time round.

:51:52.:51:55.

For those leading Corbyn's ever-loyal brigade in

:51:56.:51:57.

Plymouth, a vacancy for one of their own?

:51:58.:52:01.

I'm going to say to you fairly clearly that if somebody doesn't

:52:02.:52:04.

feel it's right for them to campaign as a candidate

:52:05.:52:08.

with Jeremy Corbyn as leader, then I don't want them to.

:52:09.:52:13.

I want people who are real, I don't want people who are fake.

:52:14.:52:16.

They are not faking it, they're actually

:52:17.:52:17.

believing it, they're living it, they want to be

:52:18.:52:20.

a Labour candidate, and they want to be part of a Labour

:52:21.:52:23.

they will campaign for whoever is selected, but this grassroots

:52:24.:52:28.

organisation that backs Jeremy Corbyn has been likened to Nazi

:52:29.:52:30.

stormtroopers by one of Labour's own.

:52:31.:52:34.

Michael Foster ran for the party in Camborne and Redruth in 2015.

:52:35.:52:40.

He now says traditional party members in Cornwall are being frozen

:52:41.:52:42.

What is very very clear is that Momentum, who are

:52:43.:52:49.

now the majority of members, only support their own.

:52:50.:52:52.

There was no support, when I went out a couple of

:52:53.:52:55.

times with candidates, at all, from those Momentum members.

:52:56.:52:58.

The region's only Labour MP has also had well-catalogued disagreements

:52:59.:53:00.

In one instance, Mr Bradshaw described the leadership as "A

:53:01.:53:08.

destructive combination of incompetence, deceit and menace."

:53:09.:53:12.

I think a lot of my colleagues, as you

:53:13.:53:15.

have seen today, have taken a good, hard look at themselves and their

:53:16.:53:18.

consciences and have come out and said they just don't think Jeremy

:53:19.:53:21.

has got the right qualities to take us into an election, and in fact

:53:22.:53:24.

Unsurprisingly, that's not how they see it

:53:25.:53:31.

Unsurprisingly, that's not how they see it at the Momentum

:53:32.:53:33.

The buzz I'm getting from the meeting is enthusiasm - people

:53:34.:53:37.

are excited by the upcoming election.

:53:38.:53:39.

Like I said in that room tonight, some of us never thought we

:53:40.:53:41.

would get the opportunity to do this in our lives,

:53:42.:53:45.

and suddenly for that moment to arrive, it's like, it

:53:46.:53:47.

The decision on who fights for Labour and where

:53:48.:53:52.

now rests with the top brass, who say they'll have their men or

:53:53.:53:55.

To discuss this, we're joined by Labour MP Ben Bradshaw,

:53:56.:54:05.

who increased his majority back in 2015.

:54:06.:54:10.

Welcome to the programme, Ben. Do you not now find yourself

:54:11.:54:14.

position you predicted a few months position you predicted a few months

:54:15.:54:19.

ago of being led into a disaster? That was during a leadership

:54:20.:54:22.

election. But what's changed in terms of your assessment of Jeremy

:54:23.:54:27.

Corbyn? Let's get a reality check. We are currently more than 20

:54:28.:54:31.

percentage points behind the Conservatives in the polls. That

:54:32.:54:33.

landslide territory for the Tories, landslide territory for the Tories,

:54:34.:54:37.

so anybody, for the sake of our democracy, who doesn't want a

:54:38.:54:41.

the sake of our schools and the sake of our schools and

:54:42.:54:53.

hospitals, or who is worried about the extreme version of Brexit the

:54:54.:54:55.

Tories are pursuing, will do everything they can in this

:54:56.:54:57.

election, wherever they live, to support the candidate with the

:54:58.:54:59.

best chance of leading a conservative. Can your party change

:55:00.:55:04.

radically in the next few months? It cannot but what I have been

:55:05.:55:06.

campaigning on yesterday, we have more than twice the support in

:55:07.:55:11.

Exeter on the first day of the campaign yesterday as on my local

:55:12.:55:15.

record. People in Exeter will vote for the candidate they want to be

:55:16.:55:19.

their MP for the next five years, they are not voting for a party

:55:20.:55:22.

leader or a government. The result in Exeter will not affect the

:55:23.:55:26.

national result, and Labour supporters and members across our

:55:27.:55:30.

region will do their best to maximise the Labour vote and avoid

:55:31.:55:35.

the terrible prospect of a landslide Conservative government completely

:55:36.:55:38.

unchecked, taking its acts to our public services, our schools and

:55:39.:55:43.

NHS, and pushing this extreme form of Brexit outside the single market

:55:44.:55:46.

and the customs union, which would be extremely bad for prosperity,

:55:47.:55:51.

jobs and investment in our region. Do you accept there is no prospect

:55:52.:55:55.

of a Labour government would Jeremy Corbyn as Prime Minister? I am

:55:56.:56:00.

asking you to get real. The reality is we are 20 points behind in the

:56:01.:56:04.

polls. Don't forget some people may say opinion polls may be wrong, the

:56:05.:56:09.

problem is in the past when they have been wrong, they have

:56:10.:56:11.

underestimated the Conservative lead. That is where we are. We are

:56:12.:56:17.

in a fight against the Tory landslide, and in the south-west we

:56:18.:56:20.

are in a fight against a 1-party state. I think it would be terrible

:56:21.:56:24.

for our democracy and the country and for all those people who need

:56:25.:56:26.

some sort of scrutiny and challenge for what would be the most

:56:27.:56:43.

right wing Conservative government in our country's history. Just

:56:44.:56:45.

quickly, we were talking earlier about the idea of Progressive

:56:46.:56:47.

Alliance, Greens standing in favour of Labour or Lib Dem candidates, do

:56:48.:56:50.

you have sympathy with this? I don't know what is happening about that

:56:51.:56:52.

but I have more faith in the intelligence of the British people

:56:53.:56:55.

to do the right thing. In Exeter and Plymouth, if you don't want a hard

:56:56.:56:58.

Brexiteer right wing Tory you vote for me or the Labour candidates in

:56:59.:57:00.

Plymouth. Elsewhere the public are able to make up their own judgment

:57:01.:57:03.

as to who has the best chance of beating the Conservatives, and I am

:57:04.:57:07.

sure they will. Judith and Ernie, you are both in different ways

:57:08.:57:11.

fishing potentially for Labour voters.

:57:12.:57:23.

Just generally, I think Labour voters are not happy with Jeremy

:57:24.:57:31.

Corbyn as leader. We are knocking on doors at the moment on the Cornwall

:57:32.:57:35.

Council campaign and Labour voters are saying they will support us.

:57:36.:57:41.

Quickly, Ernie, you are in a similar position with this ambition from the

:57:42.:57:46.

Prime Minister to gain Labour voters in the north, Eurosceptic Labour

:57:47.:57:49.

voters in the north, you are about the same thing? Not just in the

:57:50.:57:54.

north to be honest. I did a couple of years on the Assembly line at

:57:55.:58:10.

Ford in Dagenham. This has become not the Labour Party I knew as

:58:11.:58:14.

El-Abd. Yes, Ben is right, there needs to be credible and strong

:58:15.:58:16.

opposition. As I said earlier, the government is a done deal. You are

:58:17.:58:19.

voting for a strong, credible opposition, checks and balances, and

:58:20.:58:21.

if the vote Labour, Lib Dem, SNP, you will get us another referendum.

:58:22.:58:23.

Quickly, Ben, do you have preferences for candidates in

:58:24.:58:27.

Plymouth, which of course is generally in contention for labour?

:58:28.:58:31.

I understand the excellent Luke Pollard has already been confirmed

:58:32.:58:35.

as our candidate. He had a great result, came very close last time,

:58:36.:58:38.

and I am sure I candidate in the other Plymouth seat will be of

:58:39.:58:42.

equally high calibre and will work extremely hard. Ben, thank you very

:58:43.:58:44.

much. Now our regular round-up

:58:45.:58:45.

of the political week in 60 seconds. The Prime Minister says she'll

:58:46.:58:54.

be visiting Cornwall ...but I recognise the importance

:58:55.:58:56.

of small businesses in Cornwall, and I look forward to visiting

:58:57.:59:02.

Cornwall in the next few weeks and being able to talk to him

:59:03.:59:05.

and others about the importance A scrappage scheme for diesel cars

:59:06.:59:08.

is in order, according to Devon MP and EFRA Committee chairman Neil

:59:09.:59:15.

Parish. This is a policy with

:59:16.:59:19.

significant public support, especially as we move,

:59:20.:59:21.

dare I say, towards a general election,

:59:22.:59:23.

although that's not in my speech. Calls for the law to allow Cornish

:59:24.:59:25.

flags on numberplates I believe it would be a great way

:59:26.:59:29.

to serve the new Great Britain that we want post-membership

:59:30.:59:36.

of the EU. And North Cornwall MP Scott Mann

:59:37.:59:39.

runs his first London Marathon. I'm hoping to raise ?3,000

:59:40.:59:44.

so I can give ?1,000 to each of my cottage hospitals,

:59:45.:59:47.

so please sponsor me, Judith, you are a Cornish pier,

:59:48.:00:07.

would you like a Cornish flag on your number plate? There are loads!

:00:08.:00:13.

I have noticed this! I don't think you need a law to do this. It is the

:00:14.:00:18.

debate on whether it is legal at the moment. I don't think it. The

:00:19.:00:23.

Cornish people doing it! Ernie, to be fair, a couple of people were

:00:24.:00:28.

interested in Cornish flags but the point was made by those who tabled

:00:29.:00:33.

the debate that regional flags of counties, the White Rose of

:00:34.:00:36.

Yorkshire for instance, any sympathy for that? As the only national party

:00:37.:00:41.

spokesman for small business for Brexiteer -- who is a Brexiteer, the

:00:42.:00:45.

rest are in the past, it would be a great boost for the number plate

:00:46.:00:49.

industry. They would have to change them all. They do it in Australia

:00:50.:00:54.

with different states. That sounds like government intervention.

:00:55.:01:02.

Certainly not! LAUGHTER. Small-business. I can tell you Scott

:01:03.:01:06.

Mann has completed the London Marathon. We must

:01:07.:01:07.

on issues like the NHS. Run out of time. Andrew, back to you.

:01:08.:01:16.

Now, Ukip have made their first significant policy announcement

:01:17.:01:22.

of the election campaign today with a call for a ban on wearing

:01:23.:01:27.

But is it a policy that will meet with the approval of the man

:01:28.:01:34.

who bankrolled the party's last general election campaign?

:01:35.:01:35.

Hello, Andrew. Let me see if I can clarify some things, are you a

:01:36.:01:43.

member of Ukip? I a patron of Ukip so I don't stop being a member. So

:01:44.:01:49.

you are still a member? I am, apparently for life. Are you still

:01:50.:01:53.

hoping to bankroll Ukip? Not at the moment. Why is that? The internal

:01:54.:02:00.

problems we have had in Ukip have been aired, and a lot needs to

:02:01.:02:05.

happen in the party in terms of professionalising it and I think it

:02:06.:02:09.

is ill-prepared for this general election. Are you going to run in

:02:10.:02:14.

Clacton? I will be if selected. For Ukip? Yes. Have you been to Clacton?

:02:15.:02:21.

I've been with Nigel Mansell on the campaign. You will run for a

:02:22.:02:25.

constituency you've only been in once? Yes, why does that surprise

:02:26.:02:31.

you? You know nothing about it. I've just recently decided to become the

:02:32.:02:36.

candidate there. Did you know where it is? Of course I do, your piece

:02:37.:02:40.

the other night was completely wrong. I said I knew where it was

:02:41.:02:44.

but I didn't know much about it. Maybe the people of Clacton will

:02:45.:02:51.

regard you as a carpetbagger? Why? Because you have never been there.

:02:52.:02:57.

Most politicians are carpetbaggers and I will be there for the right

:02:58.:03:01.

reasons. I thought it was because of your visceral hatred of Douglas

:03:02.:03:06.

Carswell. He only lasted 24 hours after I announced my candidacy so we

:03:07.:03:10.

will see what happens. The main thing I am going to Clacton on

:03:11.:03:13.

Monday to meet the Ukip councillors, see what the issues are and see if

:03:14.:03:16.

they want me as a candidate. They may not want me. Who do you think

:03:17.:03:23.

you will be up against? The potential Conservative candidate.

:03:24.:03:29.

Who in Ukip? I don't suppose anyone in Ukip will stand against me, I

:03:30.:03:34.

wouldn't have thought. Really? I would have thought. Money talks! Why

:03:35.:03:41.

do you say that? You talked about having a pirate radio station to

:03:42.:03:45.

blast into Clacton so it is not covered by the election rules.

:03:46.:03:47.

You've been talking about financing a sort of right-wing Momentum

:03:48.:03:53.

movement. I just wonder, has politics now just become a

:03:54.:03:58.

Richmond's hobby? From my perspective the reason I'm

:03:59.:04:01.

interested in it is if you have looked at what has happened in the

:04:02.:04:04.

country, it's clear the Conservatives will have a massive

:04:05.:04:08.

majority. -- has politics become a rich man's hobby. Only putting up

:04:09.:04:15.

candidates not against Brexit MPs. Is Ukip over? I don't think so. The

:04:16.:04:22.

electoral maths is interesting because first-past-the-post

:04:23.:04:23.

effectively could help Ukip in this example. Ukip got one MP with 4

:04:24.:04:34.

million votes. What we are seeing is the total collapse of Labour. In

:04:35.:04:38.

that situation there are certain seats up north in Hartlepool and

:04:39.:04:41.

other seats like that, the total collapse of the Labour Party could

:04:42.:04:45.

help Ukip to win a few seats. Is Ukip over? It looks that way, yes.

:04:46.:04:51.

They haven't made much of a dent in Labour's vote in the north, they

:04:52.:04:54.

don't really have a defining issue anymore and all the polls we have

:04:55.:04:58.

seen published since the election was called show Ukip vote is going

:04:59.:05:03.

to the Conservatives. Is Ukip over? It always happens when the

:05:04.:05:07.

Conservative Party goes far to the right, really hard Brexit, there is

:05:08.:05:11.

no space for BMP, Ukip and all of that. Are you associating the BNP

:05:12.:05:17.

with Ukip? Or that, movements to the right of the Conservatives get eaten

:05:18.:05:21.

up one the Conservatives move as far right as Theresa May has done. I

:05:22.:05:26.

think what your enterprise shows is how it's really time to reform

:05:27.:05:31.

funding of political parties. It is disgraceful that very rich people

:05:32.:05:36.

can move in and bankroll the Brexit campaigned to the extent that they

:05:37.:05:39.

did. We need proper state funding of parties. The union is bankrolling

:05:40.:05:46.

Labour. I assume the reform would include trade unions? Indeed. Ukip

:05:47.:05:53.

has lost its talisman in Nigel Farage, it was a one-man party, I

:05:54.:05:57.

have to say, people like Tim. Having voted for Brexit its reason to be

:05:58.:06:02.

has gone. It will still take votes from Labour and the Conservatives

:06:03.:06:06.

but probably only from the don't knows. There are seats in certain

:06:07.:06:10.

places where if enough Tories back Ukip dated when. Hartlepool is an

:06:11.:06:16.

example. Were the Tories will never win. The demise of Ukip has been

:06:17.:06:19.

forecasted many times before but I don't see a Tory candidate winning

:06:20.:06:23.

in a place like Hartlepool. So we could see, and I think we will see,

:06:24.:06:27.

the total collapse of the Labour vote. We shall see. The leader of

:06:28.:06:32.

the party of which you say you are still a patron, Paul Nuttall, said

:06:33.:06:36.

he would ban the Burcea and the niqab in public, what is your view?

:06:37.:06:44.

-- the niqab and the Burcea? I'm not in agreement with that. If it is a

:06:45.:06:49.

security issue at airports or public transport it could be acceptable but

:06:50.:06:53.

I'm not in favour of curtailing people's writes. You have gone

:06:54.:06:56.

further than him, haven't you? You tweeted you wanted to ban Muslim

:06:57.:07:01.

immigration. In my view the problem we have had with the lack of

:07:02.:07:04.

integration in certain communities has come about through mass

:07:05.:07:08.

open-door immigration. If you are a must win you wouldn't be allowed in?

:07:09.:07:12.

What I said in the tweet was I think they should be a ban on

:07:13.:07:17.

immigration... You said Muslim immigration. That's what I believe.

:07:18.:07:23.

If you are a world famous doctor coming to help one of our big

:07:24.:07:26.

teaching hospitals in this country because you are a Muslim you could

:07:27.:07:29.

not get in? We have to start somewhere, there are huge problems

:07:30.:07:33.

in areas where 20% of the population don't speak the language, they

:07:34.:07:38.

haven't integrated. You should read the rest of the tweet, it is control

:07:39.:07:44.

of immigration from a 10-year ban on unskilled immigration. The first

:07:45.:07:47.

thing you said was to ban Muslim immigration, it is in black and

:07:48.:07:51.

white. I have said that, I do not dispute that. I was questioning

:07:52.:07:55.

that. There is my answer, you cannot tell somebody's will adjust freedoms

:07:56.:07:59.

but what you can do is stop adding to the problem. Doesn't that sound a

:08:00.:08:05.

bit like the BNP? It's as like BNP and like Trump. Its, we hate

:08:06.:08:09.

Muslims, fine, if that is what you are standing for, that is clear. The

:08:10.:08:14.

final word is we have had open-door mass immigration from the

:08:15.:08:16.

Conservative Party, we've had it from the Labour Party and its fine

:08:17.:08:19.

if you are in north London to say these things, if you live in Oldham

:08:20.:08:23.

and your community has been radically changed and you have a

:08:24.:08:27.

whole population not integrating in, not speaking the language, something

:08:28.:08:30.

has got to be done. We had better leave it there. Thank you for coming

:08:31.:08:35.

in. I am en route to Clacton. We will see how you get on there.

:08:36.:08:38.

Now, Lib Dem leader Tim Farron was on TV earlier today

:08:39.:08:40.

and he was asked again about an issue that he's been

:08:41.:08:43.

asked about repeatedly - his attitude to homosexuality.

:08:44.:08:45.

when they asked you whether gay sex was a sin.

:08:46.:08:55.

Come on, Robert, I've been asked this question loads

:08:56.:08:57.

few days and I have been clear, even in the House of Commons,

:08:58.:09:01.

It's possible I'm not the only person getting tired

:09:02.:09:11.

Probably, but then why don't you just close it down?

:09:12.:09:15.

Toby Young, why does he get into such a mess over this? I mean, he is

:09:16.:09:27.

leader of the Liberal Democrats. Its 2017. I guess the reason he keeps

:09:28.:09:31.

refusing to answer that question is because what the implication is that

:09:32.:09:35.

he does think that homosexual acts are sinful, and he cannot bring

:09:36.:09:42.

himself not to say that, or to say what Robert Peston and others want

:09:43.:09:45.

him to say because he is an evangelical Christian who converted

:09:46.:09:50.

at the age of 20, 21, and clearly he really struggles with this issue and

:09:51.:09:52.

I think it will be really difficult for the Lib Dems to promote, or even

:09:53.:09:57.

Lib Dem candidates like Vince Cable, to promote the idea of the

:09:58.:10:00.

Progressive Alliance even though Tim has ruled it out, if he is not

:10:01.:10:04.

prepared to say I don't think homosexual acts are sinful. What is

:10:05.:10:13.

your view? It is disastrous if that is what he really thinks but Preston

:10:14.:10:16.

did not push the hard. I'm not sure he understood the difference about

:10:17.:10:18.

the question between gay sex and being gay. I think he just thought

:10:19.:10:21.

he was going on saying I'm not anti-gay. He needs to command

:10:22.:10:25.

immediately and clarify it. If you are right and he does actually think

:10:26.:10:29.

it is a sin he is in real trouble. There is a slight parallel with what

:10:30.:10:33.

police said before about Jeremy Corbyn, how his unilateral nuclear

:10:34.:10:37.

policy would appeal to the hard core of the left. The problem for Tim

:10:38.:10:42.

Farron with what he is saying here, while he is an evangelical

:10:43.:10:47.

Christian, this will not appeal to traditional Liberal Democrats. An

:10:48.:10:54.

LGBT community member cannot possibly vote for an MP who believes

:10:55.:10:59.

that a sexual act between homosexuals is sinful. He has not

:11:00.:11:02.

made that clear. Of course, he wants to stop Brexit as well so he is

:11:03.:11:06.

neither liberal nor democratic. He will have seven weeks to make it

:11:07.:11:09.

clear because I am sure he will be asked again. We have the chairman of

:11:10.:11:14.

the Conservative Party on earlier, Polly. An important figure for the

:11:15.:11:18.

Tory campaign. What did you make of what he said? I don't think he will

:11:19.:11:23.

have him on very often, he didn't do brilliantly. I think they will bring

:11:24.:11:26.

back chemical Ali, Michael Fallon, he can say anything with a straight

:11:27.:11:31.

face, he can say black is white. Michael Fallon, chemical Ali? Why do

:11:32.:11:36.

you say that? He can absolutely say black is white. For instance if you

:11:37.:11:42.

look back at what he said, you challenged him about the energy

:11:43.:11:49.

policy, when Ed Miliband came out with it, he said any kind of freeze

:11:50.:11:54.

would stop investment, the lights will go out. You have him on, he

:11:55.:11:58.

will say the exact opposite. He is magic at that. But I don't think

:11:59.:12:04.

your guy today was up to the job. If Michael Fallon was chemical Ali, or

:12:05.:12:11.

we should say chemical Fally, Patrick was more like comical Ali.

:12:12.:12:17.

The whole Iraq war is rushing back at me. He is the warm up comedian,

:12:18.:12:21.

there is another six weeks to go, just getting things started. What

:12:22.:12:26.

did you think? I don't think he was too bad, it was difficult for him to

:12:27.:12:30.

say exactly what was in the 2050 manifesto is going to be replicated

:12:31.:12:34.

in the Conservatives' manifesto during this general election, he

:12:35.:12:37.

doesn't want to be seen rowing back on stuff but on the other hand I

:12:38.:12:40.

don't think he can conceal the fact they will be far fewer commitments

:12:41.:12:44.

in this Conservative manifesto than in the last one, as you and I know,

:12:45.:12:48.

it was full of rash promises last time because they thought they would

:12:49.:12:56.

have to trade a lot of them away in the negotiations with the Liberal

:12:57.:12:59.

Democrats to form a second coalition so they are saddled with policies

:13:00.:13:01.

they don't particularly want to be hemmed in by. The forthcoming

:13:02.:13:03.

Conservative manifesto will be much lighter and shorter with fewer

:13:04.:13:06.

commitments. Different? Some stuff jumped from the 2050 manifesto? I

:13:07.:13:10.

think so but we will see a commitment to run schools to

:13:11.:13:13.

overcome that hurdle in the next parliament and I don't think, in

:13:14.:13:16.

spite of what you think, Polly, that it will be a hard tack to the right.

:13:17.:13:20.

I think if anything the mood music of the Conservative manifesto will

:13:21.:13:25.

be a centrist inclusive one. The mood music will be because the

:13:26.:13:29.

specifics would be there. She is good at saying governing for

:13:30.:13:32.

everybody and the many and not the few but when you look at the hard

:13:33.:13:37.

facts of what her and Hammond's budget looks like, you look at her

:13:38.:13:40.

hard Brexit, it's a very different story. Or that, the music has

:13:41.:13:48.

stopped for this week! Thank you. I will be back next week at the normal

:13:49.:13:55.

time of 11am on Sunday morning. On BBC One The Daily Politics is back

:13:56.:13:59.

at midday tomorrow and we will be on every day next week on BBC Two.

:14:00.:14:03.

Remember, if it's Sunday, it is The Sunday Politics.

:14:04.:14:33.

There'll be a couple of hours of just fantastic music, really,

:14:34.:14:35.

all the Ella classics, as well as some very special guests,

:14:36.:14:38.

we have Mica Paris, Imelda May, Dame Cleo Laine

:14:39.:14:41.

'There's a side to Rory that the public doesn't see.

:14:42.:14:47.

'Rory has suspected for some time that he may have ADHD.

:14:48.:14:50.

Here we have the first hydrogen bomb that went into service with

:14:51.:15:00.

Andrew Neil and Lucie Fisher with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Andrew is joined by Conservative Party chairman Patrick McLoughlin and Green Party MEP Molly Scott Cato to discuss the forthcoming local and general elections. Plus the latest from the French presidential race. On the political panel are the Financial Times' Janan Ganesh, The Guardian's Polly Toynbee and Toby Young from The Spectator.


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