30/04/2017 Sunday Politics South West


30/04/2017

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It's Sunday Morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:35.:00:39.

Theresa May says she has no plans to increase tax levels,

:00:40.:00:42.

but refuses to repeat David Cameron's 2015 manifesto

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promise ruling out hikes in VAT, national insurance and income tax.

:00:47.:00:53.

The leaders of the EU's 27 member states unanimously

:00:54.:00:56.

agree their negotiating strategy for the upcoming Brexit talks, but

:00:57.:01:00.

And in the last of our series of interviews ahead of Thursday's

:01:01.:01:10.

In the South West: to the leader of Plaid Cymru Leanne

:01:11.:01:15.

A local election special, we put your questions to candidates.

:01:16.:01:24.

They hit an all-time low after coalition government,

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but are the Lib Dems poised to bounce back,

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And with me to analyse the week's politics,

:01:49.:01:54.

Isabel Oakeshott, Steve Richards, Tom Newton-Dunn.

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They'll be tweeting using the hashtag #bbcsp.

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So when Theresa May was interviewed just over an hour ago

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on The Andrew Marr Show, the Prime Minister was asked

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to confirm that she would repeat David Cameron's 2015 election

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promise not to raise VAT, national insurance and income tax

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We have absolutely no plans to increase the level of tax,

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but I'm also very clear that I don't want to make specific proposals

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on taxes unless I'm absolutely sure that I can deliver on those.

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But it is, would be my intention as a Conservative Government

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and a Conservative Prime Minister, to reduce the taxes

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The Tories like to have a clear tax message in elections, are they

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getting into a bit of a mess? That method wasn't clear, but does it

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mean, saying they have no plans to increase the level of tax? We are

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clear there will not be a rise in VAT, a lot of commentators will get

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overexcited about that, but there was no great expectations there

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would be a rise in VAT. Tempting as it is, because even one percentage

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point on VAT rate is 4.5 billion for the exchequer so it is tempting but

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there has been no speculation that would happen. We can see that she

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clearly wants to reiterate the language about hard-working families

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but I don't think we are that much the wiser. Even if she does not put

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up rates, according to projections the overall tax burden, as a

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percentage of GDP, is rising, will rise in the years ahead. That is why

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it was an odd phrase, I know she is doing it to be evasive but to say

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they have no plans to raise the general level of taxation, they do

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have. We also know they have specific plans because it was in the

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last budget, they had a tax rise which they had to revise, National

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Insurance rises, so very wisely in my view they are keeping options

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open, the 2015 tax-and-spend debate was a fantasy world, totally

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unrelated to the demands that would follow. They now have the

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flexibility, one of the arguments you had heard last time was Philip

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Hammond saying to her, we have to break away from the 2015 manifesto

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commitment and we can only do it this way, that is one of the better

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arguments. The Tories like to talk about tax cuts in elections, whether

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they do it is another matter, but they are not being allowed to talk

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about tax cuts, they are now on the defensive over whether they will

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raise taxes. That is not a healthy position for the campaign to be in.

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If you look at the numbers, quite frankly, if you will not do this at

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this election with eight 20 point lead over Labour, then when will you

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take these tough decisions? Reading between the lines of what Theresa

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May has said all over different broadcasters this morning, income

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tax will go down for low-income families, such as the threshold rise

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that microbes that was already factored in. She has had to commit

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to it again. VAT will be fat, national insurance contributions

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will go up. Do you think they will go up? I think so, she had plenty of

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opportunity to rule it out and she didn't. There was a terrible mess

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with the budget, it is a good tax argument but not a good electoral

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argument that you are eroding the base so heavily with people moving

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into self-employment that as you raise national insurance

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contributions for everybody but the self-employed, it is something the

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Treasury will have to look at. The other triple lock on pensions, we

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don't know if they will keep to that either? If they are sensible they

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will find a form of words to give them flexibility in that area as

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well. I would say there is no question over that, that has gone.

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As Mrs May would say, you will have to wait for the manifesto. That is

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what all the party leaders tell me! Labour have spent the weekend

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pushing their messages Speaking at a camapign rally

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in London yesterday, Jeremy Corbyn promised a Labour

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government would fix what he called People are fed up, fed up with not

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being able to get somewhere to live, fed up waiting for hospital

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appointments, fed up with 0-hours contracts, fed up with low pay, fed

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up with debt, fed up with not being able to get on in their lives

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because we have a system that is rigged against so many.

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I've been joined from Newcastle by Labour's elections

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and campaigns co-ordinator, Ian Lavery.

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Good morning. To deal with this rigged economy, as Mr Corbyn calls

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it, the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell has a 20 point plan for

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workers out today. When you add up everything he plans to do to help

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workers, how much will it cost? The full costings, one thing I need to

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say at the very beginning, the costings of any policy which we have

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already ruled out and any policy we will be ruling out in the next few

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days and weeks will be fully costed in the manifesto and in addition to

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the fact that it will be fully costed, we will see it in the

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manifesto how indeed it has been funded, so we are very clear,

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anything we have seen already, and there are some exciting policy

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releases and there will be more in the future, anything we are going to

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do will be fully costed and in the manifesto. You announced a 20 point

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plan but cannot tell me what the costs will be this morning so at the

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moment it is a menu without prices? It is not a menu without prices, it

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is a fantastic opportunity. This 20 point plan is something which will

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transform the lives of millions of millions of people in the

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workplace... But what is the cost? It will be welcomed by many people

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across the UK. The fact the costings have not been released, you will

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have to be patient, it will be released very clearly, it will

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identify that in the manifesto. Let me come down to one of the points,

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the end of the public sector pay freeze. Can you give us any idea how

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much that will cost? The end of the public sector pay freeze, so

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important to the future of the Labour Party, it is an massive

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policy decision. Let me say at this stage, Theresa May, the Prime

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Minister, this morning, on The Andrew Marr Show, did not have the

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common decency, courtesy all respect to condone the fact that nurses, the

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heroes of the NHS, have had a reduction of nearly 14% in their

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wages since 2010 and are using food banks to feed themselves! Does that

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not say everything that is wrong with today's society? So can you

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tell me what it will cost, which is what my question was? What I will

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say is everything the Labour Party pledges, everything that we come out

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with, what we will roll out between now and the 8th of June, will be

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fully costed, people will be very much aware of how much the costings

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will be, where the funding will come from, when the manifesto is

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published. What about doubling paternity leave, nu minimum wage,

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four new bank holidays, any idea what it will

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cost? These are exciting new proposals and of course today cost

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money but we are the sixth richest economy in the world. It is about

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redistribution of the wealth we create. We are seeing growth in the

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economy, it is how we utilise the finances in the best way we possibly

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can for a fairer society for the many and not the few. You just can't

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tell me how much it will cost? That is why I will repeat again that you

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need to be very patient. Do you know the cost yourself? You are the head

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of the campaign, do you know the cost of these things yourself? I am

:09:57.:10:00.

very much aware of how much the costings are likely to be, they have

:10:01.:10:04.

been identified, they will be published in the manifesto. You

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really do understand I would not be releasing today, live on your show,

:10:10.:10:14.

any costings or predictions with regards the manifesto. Why not? You

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have released the policy, why not the cost? Because there is a fine

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detail and we will identify it to the general public in the manifesto.

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We not only explain how much it will cost but we will explain where the

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funding comes from. Be patient. Will some of the costs be met by

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increasing taxes? I would think at this point in time there is not any

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indication to increase basic taxes and again the taxes and spending of

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the Labour Government with the proposals of the 20 point plan, the

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issues we have got, housing, the NHS, crime, education will all be

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identified with the costings in the publication. Can you tell us this

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morning, we'll tax for most people rise or not to finance this? We in

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the Labour Party are looking to a fair tax system which will be

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clearly identified in the manifesto. Mr McDonnell also wants to ban all

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0-hours contracts. Would that include those who actually like

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those contracts? There are nearly 1 million, depending on which figured

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you'd use, there are nearly 1 million people on zero-hours

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contract and the vast proportion of those want to be able to live a

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decent life, a secure life, they want to understand whether they will

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be at work the next day, they're included hours... I understand a lot

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of people don't like zero-hours contract and your proposal will

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address that, but there are those, I saw one survey where 65% of people

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on zero-hours contract like the flexibility it gives them. Will you

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force them off zero-hours contract or if they like them will they

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continue with them? We will discuss it with employee is to make sure

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individuals in the workplace have the right to negotiate hours in that

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workplace. Guaranteed hours is very, very important. Zero-hour contracts

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are an instrument in which employers abuse and exploit mainly young

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people, mainly female people in the workplace. We would be banning

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zero-hour contract. But there are those, students for example, who

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like them, would they be forced off zero-hour contracts in your

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proposal? Our proposal would be banning zero-hour contract and

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introducing contracts which have set hours in the workplace. You also say

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no company will be able to bid for a public contract unless the boss

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earns no more than 20 times the lowest paid, or the average wage,

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I'm not quite sure which. What would happen if British Aerospace bids to

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build more joint strike Fighters and the boss is paid more than 20 times?

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I understand the point you raise but we have an obscene situation in this

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country, Andrew, in which the bosses at the very top make an absolute

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fortune... But what would happen then? Who would build joint strike

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Fighters... The difference in wages between the top earners in the

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country and the people in the factories, in the workshops,

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producing the goods, is vast. I understand that is the reason you

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want a ratio. What I am saying is, what happens if the ratio is

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greater? Who gets the contract if not British Aerospace? Who else

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builds the planes? We are going to introduce a wage rate CEO of one to

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20. -- wage ratio. We want to close the gap between the people at the

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very top and people who produce the goods. Let me try one more Time, who

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would build the joint strike fighter? We would look at the issue

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as it came along but the policy is clear... Can you name a single

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defence contractor weather boss' salary is less than 20 times average

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earnings? We are not reducing, we have rolled that out as part of this

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fantastic plan to transform society to get rid of discrimination, to try

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and bring together our communities. We will introduce a pay ratio of one

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to 20. Fair enough, thank you very much.

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It's a month after the triggering of Article 50, and EU leaders -

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with the exception of Britain - met in Brussels this weekend

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to agree their opening negotiating stance, to get the divorce

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It is inside this psychedelic chamber where Britain's 'Grexit'

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future will be decided over the next two years, but there is a vast gulf

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in rhetoric coming from the UK and the EU. With parallel narratives

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emerging for both sides. There is broad agreement that an orderly

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withdrawal is in the interests of both sides. But Theresa May's

:15:33.:15:37.

position is that the terms of our future trade deal should be

:15:38.:15:40.

negotiated alongside the terms of our divorce. Meanwhile the EU says

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the terms of the UK's exit must be decided before any discussion on a

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future trade deal can begin. But don't forget that divorce

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settlement. Don't remind me. In Brussels, many think written should

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pay even more, while in the UK ministers said the divorce bill

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should be capped at 3 billion. After you. Thank you.

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For are you looking forward to it? Isn't that divorce bill a bit high?

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Isn't this about punishing Britain? We are very united, you all seem so

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surprised but it's a fact. How soon can we get a deal? We have to wait

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for the elections. It was the decision of Mrs May. It took over an

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hour for the leaders to make their entrances but once inside it's just

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a few minutes to agree the negotiating guidelines. They set out

:16:41.:16:46.

three main areas. The first phase of talks on the divorce settlement will

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deal with the existing financial commitments to the EU, the Northern

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Ireland border and the rights of EU citizens in the UK. They said a UK

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trade agreement can be discussed when the first phase of talks

:16:58.:17:02.

reaches significant progress. And that there must be unity in the

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negotiations, that individual EU members won't negotiate separately

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with the UK. They are quite good here at negotiating because they are

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used to it. They set a maximum and then they have to recede a little

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bit depending on what the other side is prepared to offer. I think there

:17:22.:17:27.

is room for manoeuvre in some issues, but I don't think some of

:17:28.:17:31.

the baseline things will change that much. For example I don't think the

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European Union will concede on the rights of citizens who are already

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in the UK. It will be very difficult for them to accept that they will

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not be any exit bill, and the question of Northern Ireland is very

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important as well, the hard order question. The baseline things are

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not going to move that much, then you have room for manoeuvring

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between. On security, defence and the fight against terrorism, the

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guidelines said the EU stands ready to work together. And after lunch,

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friendly signs from some EU leaders as they gave individual press

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conferences. Paul and said the talks should open doors to new

:18:14.:18:16.

opportunities and even German Chancellor Angela Merkel, who had

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earlier said some in Britain were deluded about Brexit, softened her

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tone saying there was no conspiracy against the UK. Unity was the

:18:26.:18:30.

buzzword at this summit and for once everybody seemed to be sticking to

:18:31.:18:35.

the script. That unity is not only amongst the 27 states, it's also

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among the institutions so many of the divisions we have seen in the

:18:40.:18:44.

past at European level do not exist. That is very important and it's not

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be unity that is directed somehow against the UK because I think we

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all want this to be an orderly process and part of that is that the

:18:53.:19:05.

EU side is unified. So although there are no surprises here, what

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took place in this room was a significant step towards the real

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Brexit negotiations which will begin soon after the general election in

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June, said to be the most complex the UK has faced in our lifetimes.

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Isabel, Steve and Tom are still with me.

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Isabel, doesn't the British media have to be a bit careful here? We

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would never take at face value anything a British politician tells

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us. We would question it, put it in context and wonder if they are

:19:41.:19:43.

bluffing, but we seem to take at face value anything a European

:19:44.:19:48.

politician says about these negotiations. You only have to look

:19:49.:19:52.

at the front page of the Sunday Times today to see that. They quoted

:19:53.:19:57.

at length Juncker, who didn't like the food at the reception and this

:19:58.:20:01.

and that, and I think the mood is very optimistic. The key thing is

:20:02.:20:06.

the EU trade Commissioner has said we will get a free trade deal and a

:20:07.:20:11.

lot of people seem to be wilfully ignoring that incredibly big

:20:12.:20:14.

concession. That is what will happen in their view. Everything that is

:20:15.:20:20.

said at the moment needs a slight rerun over. They are all in

:20:21.:20:25.

negotiating positions, plus we seem to be completely unaware that they

:20:26.:20:28.

all have their own domestic constituencies as well. Angela

:20:29.:20:34.

Merkel has an important election coming up in September,

:20:35.:20:37.

Euroscepticism is quite different from Britain of course, but there's

:20:38.:20:41.

a different kind of euro scepticism in Germany, she has got to deal with

:20:42.:20:46.

that. Of course she has, which is why you are right, nothing should be

:20:47.:20:50.

taken too seriously out of the mouths of British politicians or

:20:51.:20:55.

European politicians until October this year. We have got to wait for

:20:56.:21:00.

the French elections, then German elections, and if you look through

:21:01.:21:04.

this you can see a way forward. There's no trade talks until pay up,

:21:05.:21:09.

but what was actually written was no trade talks until we make

:21:10.:21:14.

significant progress on the money. You can define significant progress

:21:15.:21:17.

in a lot of ways but come December, fireworks over the summer, we all

:21:18.:21:23.

get very excited about it, in these chairs I'm sure, come December

:21:24.:21:27.

things will look a lot smoother. The German elections are at the end of

:21:28.:21:31.

September but I've seen reports in German press, depending how it goes

:21:32.:21:34.

it could take until Christmas before a new coalition government is put

:21:35.:21:41.

together. The Brussels long-standing negotiating tactic of nothing is

:21:42.:21:44.

agreed until everything is agreed, then I guess the British could say

:21:45.:21:49.

we agree a certain sum of money if that's what it takes but that

:21:50.:21:54.

depends on them, what good trade deal we get. If we don't get that,

:21:55.:21:59.

the sum of money is off the table. In that sense, the two are going

:22:00.:22:05.

parallel. However, I wouldn't entirely dismiss what people are

:22:06.:22:09.

saying in their pre-election periods to their own electorates because

:22:10.:22:15.

they have to some extent to deliver subsequently. Of course Angela

:22:16.:22:19.

Merkel is campaigning and electioneering, who wouldn't, she

:22:20.:22:22.

has a tough election to fight, but she is measured and thoughtful and

:22:23.:22:26.

when she says things like some of the British are delusional, that is

:22:27.:22:30.

unusually strong language for her. What was she referring to? I don't

:22:31.:22:38.

know, it wasn't specific. Have the cake and eat it perhaps the

:22:39.:22:42.

sequencing the British don't want. When they thought the British

:22:43.:22:45.

government was going to effectively demand membership of the single

:22:46.:22:48.

market, that's not going to happen now. Unless you sign up to the four

:22:49.:22:56.

pillars, that's the cake and eat it proposition, which they are right in

:22:57.:23:02.

saying Theresa May has made. But everybody has access, even with no

:23:03.:23:06.

deal you have access. The other side of it is I think there will be a

:23:07.:23:16.

united position from them. And so, as somebody pointed out in that

:23:17.:23:22.

report, they are experienced, tough negotiators, so I don't think it

:23:23.:23:29.

will be quite as easy as some think. I spoke to one of those who drew up

:23:30.:23:36.

Article 50 and they said to me they deliberately put this two year

:23:37.:23:39.

timetable in to make it impossible for anybody to think about leaving.

:23:40.:23:46.

This is really tight, this negotiation. Easy, it isn't.

:23:47.:23:49.

This coming Thursday, voters up and down the country

:23:50.:23:51.

will be going to the polls in this year's local elections.

:23:52.:23:54.

Over the past few weeks I've interviewed representatives

:23:55.:23:56.

of the Conservative Party, Labour, the Liberal Democrats,

:23:57.:23:57.

Today it's the turn of Plaid Cymru and the SNP.

:23:58.:24:01.

A little earlier I spoke Alex Salmond, who until 2014

:24:02.:24:03.

I started by asking him why Scots should vote SNP in local elections

:24:04.:24:08.

when the Scottish Government had just cut central Government funding

:24:09.:24:10.

It's actually a funding increase going into Scottish councils this

:24:11.:24:26.

year, and if you look at the funding position for example between

:24:27.:24:30.

Scottish councils and those in England, which are obviously

:24:31.:24:33.

directly related through the Barnett formula, the funding in Scotland has

:24:34.:24:37.

been incomparably better than that in England so there's a whole range

:24:38.:24:48.

of the -- of reasons... What's happening south of the border

:24:49.:24:51.

indicates the protection the Scottish Parliament has been able to

:24:52.:24:55.

put in that helps vital services in Scotland. But there hasn't been a

:24:56.:24:59.

funding increase, the block grant from Westminster to Edinburgh was

:25:00.:25:03.

increased by 1.5% in real terms but the grant to councils was cut by

:25:04.:25:11.

2.6%. It was going to be a cut of 330 million, the Greens got you to

:25:12.:25:15.

reduce it to 170 million but it is still a cut of 2.6%. Your own

:25:16.:25:26.

Aberdeenshire Council has had a cut to 391 million. You have cut the

:25:27.:25:30.

money to councils. Yes, but councils have available to them more

:25:31.:25:34.

resources this year, and as you say the budget increased that further

:25:35.:25:39.

which is why we put forward an excellent local government budget in

:25:40.:25:42.

Aberdeenshire and resisted a Tory attempts to knock ?3 million off...

:25:43.:25:48.

You asked me about Aberdeenshire, and Aberdeenshire has put forward a

:25:49.:25:53.

budget for investment expansion and resisted a Tory attempts to knock ?3

:25:54.:25:58.

million off the education budget, and I'm very grateful you have given

:25:59.:26:01.

me the opportunity to make that point. The Government in Edinburgh

:26:02.:26:07.

has cut the money to Aberdeenshire by ?11 million. It is a cut. But

:26:08.:26:14.

there is an investment budget in Aberdeenshire that has been made

:26:15.:26:17.

available by the ability to increase the council tax by 2.5% after a

:26:18.:26:23.

nine-year freeze in Scotland, and that has brought more resources into

:26:24.:26:26.

local government and that's why the butchered in Aberdeenshire has been

:26:27.:26:30.

an investment budget including protection of the education budget

:26:31.:26:35.

in the face of a Tory and liberal attempt to cut bit. You have to

:26:36.:26:39.

compare what is happening in Scotland and England, and there's no

:26:40.:26:42.

doubt Scottish local authorities have been much better funded than

:26:43.:26:48.

those in England over the last few years and that's been the ability of

:26:49.:26:51.

the Scottish Government to protect the services at local level. A good

:26:52.:26:57.

reason for voting SNP. If they have been so well funded, why after a

:26:58.:27:03.

decade of SNP rule do one in five Scottish pupils leave primary school

:27:04.:27:10.

functionally illiterate? You have got to take these things... Nicola

:27:11.:27:14.

Sturgeon has made it a top priority to address these challenges but

:27:15.:27:20.

let's take another statistic. 93% of Scottish kids are now emerging from

:27:21.:27:23.

school to positive destinations, that means to further education,

:27:24.:27:31.

apprenticeships or work. Why are one in five functionally illiterate? You

:27:32.:27:37.

argue one statistic, I'm arguing Scottish education is putting in

:27:38.:27:41.

some substantially good performances like the 93% going on to positive

:27:42.:27:46.

destinations. You can't have a failing education system if you have

:27:47.:27:51.

got that 93%, and incidentally a record low youth unemployment in

:27:52.:27:55.

Scotland without the second lowest unemployment rate in Europe. These

:27:56.:28:00.

pupils are being prepared by the Scottish education system. Let's

:28:01.:28:04.

take the figures in the round on education. It's so important. Under

:28:05.:28:08.

your watch, under your government, the Scottish schools in the most

:28:09.:28:14.

important global comparison have fallen from tenth to 19th in

:28:15.:28:24.

science, and 11 to 24th in maths, that is a record of decline and

:28:25.:28:32.

failure. That is by the OECD and first questions about that, but the

:28:33.:28:37.

OECD has also described Scotland is one of the best educated societies

:28:38.:28:41.

in the world. That was from the school system in previous years gone

:28:42.:28:47.

by. For those who are currently in Scottish schools, you have fallen

:28:48.:28:53.

from 11th to 24th in mathematics. The OECD was commenting on

:28:54.:28:56.

introduction of the new curriculum for excellence in which they have

:28:57.:29:00.

given a resounding thumbs up to it, and that's the same source as the

:29:01.:29:05.

rankings which you are comparing. Nicola Sturgeon has said there are

:29:06.:29:09.

challenges on Scottish education, particularly the access through the

:29:10.:29:12.

education system and the attainment gap but don't tell me it's failing

:29:13.:29:17.

when 55% of our pupils have gone on to higher education. That's one of

:29:18.:29:20.

the most impressive figures in the world. Why have you cut 4000

:29:21.:29:27.

teachers? The pupil numbers in Scotland have been falling over

:29:28.:29:31.

recent years as well and now of course we are increasing the number

:29:32.:29:34.

of people going through teachers training so we can make sure that

:29:35.:29:39.

number increases, but listen, the Scottish Government and Scottish

:29:40.:29:44.

Parliament, as you very well know, are subject to real terms spending

:29:45.:29:48.

cuts over the last few years and all public services have been under

:29:49.:29:52.

pressure. The main reason in terms of teacher numbers has been an

:29:53.:29:55.

attempt on the Scottish Government to protect the teacher pupil ratio,

:29:56.:30:00.

and that will now be enhanced by a further taker -- intake. You

:30:01.:30:08.

promised you would reduce primary class sizes to 18 and instead they

:30:09.:30:13.

are now 23.5 and rising. You broke that promise. You didn't mention

:30:14.:30:20.

where we started from. We have kept the teacher pupil ratio very solid

:30:21.:30:24.

in Scotland and that's been against a range of public expenditure cuts

:30:25.:30:28.

but the new intake of teachers into the new teacher training in Scotland

:30:29.:30:30.

I think will enhance the system. You have spent in the pasty in

:30:31.:30:41.

Hollywood 43 hours on Government time debating independence. How many

:30:42.:30:45.

hours have you debated education on Government time? I don't have that

:30:46.:30:51.

they get a hand... The answer is zero, you have spent zero-hours

:30:52.:30:54.

debating education on Government time. Isn't it time the SNP got back

:30:55.:31:00.

to concentrating on the day job? Andrew, as you very well know Nicola

:31:01.:31:05.

Sturgeon has identified a key priority, closing the attainment gap

:31:06.:31:08.

in Scottish education. That is exactly what she has done. Let me

:31:09.:31:14.

answer the question, it is difficult to be in a remote location, if you

:31:15.:31:19.

talk before I answer the question then the view was will not be able

:31:20.:31:25.

to listen. I let you answer that without saying a word. Is this

:31:26.:31:30.

general election about independence, as you say it is, or not about

:31:31.:31:34.

independence, as Mrs Sturgeon says it is? No, I have said exactly the

:31:35.:31:40.

same as Nicola Sturgeon on that. The issue what independence will be

:31:41.:31:44.

decided in a national referendum of the Scottish people. The mandate for

:31:45.:31:49.

that referendum was gained in last year's Scottish elections. What this

:31:50.:31:53.

election is about is backing the right of the Scottish parliament to

:31:54.:31:56.

exercise that mandate and also providing real opposition to this

:31:57.:31:59.

Tory Government and allowing the Scottish Parliament to reverse

:32:00.:32:04.

austerity and some of the public expenditure cutbacks you have been

:32:05.:32:08.

talking about, that is what this is about, backing our Scottish

:32:09.:32:09.

Parliament. Alex Salmond, speaking

:32:10.:32:11.

to me earlier. I'm now joined by the leader

:32:12.:32:13.

of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood. You accuse the Government of wanting

:32:14.:32:20.

an extreme Brexit, those are your words. What is the difference

:32:21.:32:24.

between hard Brexit and extreme Brexit? My concern is the way in

:32:25.:32:28.

which we leave the European Union could be very damaging to Wales if,

:32:29.:32:33.

for example, there are tariffs introduced then that would have a

:32:34.:32:37.

real impact in terms of Welsh jobs, and I want to make sure that we have

:32:38.:32:43.

a Brexit that doesn't cause the damage to Wales that could be

:32:44.:32:47.

caused. But what is the difference between extreme and hard? Anything

:32:48.:32:53.

that puts Welsh jobs at risk is either extreme or hard and

:32:54.:32:56.

unacceptable to Plaid Cymru, and we will do what we can to protect those

:32:57.:33:00.

jobs. You want Wales to remain a member of the single market even if

:33:01.:33:04.

the UK isn't, which would mean Wales having to accept the free movement

:33:05.:33:09.

of people, still being under the jurisdiction of the European Court,

:33:10.:33:20.

and you also want to stay in the customs union which means you could

:33:21.:33:23.

not do your own free trade deals. What is the difference between that

:33:24.:33:26.

and being a member of the European Union? We would be like Norway,

:33:27.:33:28.

outside the European Union and inside the single market. The key

:33:29.:33:30.

question is the issue of jobs and the ability to continue to trade.

:33:31.:33:35.

Wales exports, we are the biggest exporter in the whole of the UK, so

:33:36.:33:39.

there are many jobs reliant upon those goods being able to be sold to

:33:40.:33:47.

the single market. Is it central to the UK? Out of the four countries

:33:48.:33:53.

that make up the UK... Proportionally, yes. If you remain

:33:54.:34:00.

in the single market, it is hard to see how Wales could stay in the

:34:01.:34:04.

single market if the UK -- when the rest of the UK was not, you cite

:34:05.:34:09.

Norway, that has free movement, it has to be said, it effectively have

:34:10.:34:14.

to accept the jurisdiction of the European Court, it is not in the

:34:15.:34:18.

customs union so it can do some of its own free trade deals, but the

:34:19.:34:27.

Welsh people voted to leave. We have to accept the principle of free

:34:28.:34:31.

movement if there is not going to be a hard border between the north and

:34:32.:34:34.

south of Ireland. There is going to be free movement within Ireland and

:34:35.:34:39.

therefore freedom of movement, as we said in the referendum campaign,

:34:40.:34:44.

would be very, very difficult to rule out. You lost that campaign, as

:34:45.:34:50.

you know, Wales voted to leave, 17 Council areas voted to leave, only

:34:51.:34:56.

five voted to remain. Doesn't it explain why your party is going

:34:57.:35:00.

nowhere? A majority in Wales voted to leave but you effectively want to

:35:01.:35:06.

support that and de facto remain in the EU? I don't accept that, we

:35:07.:35:11.

accepted the result but Plaid Cymru now is about defending Wales. There

:35:12.:35:16.

are so many risks facing our people from the jobs perspective, the

:35:17.:35:20.

privatisation perspective, the cuts perspective, and from the fact that

:35:21.:35:24.

the Tories would like to grab power was back from our National Assembly,

:35:25.:35:29.

so the key point... If you look at the Wales bill that went through

:35:30.:35:33.

recently, the list of reserved powers there suggests there are some

:35:34.:35:36.

powers currently within the Welsh Assembly jurisdiction that would be

:35:37.:35:43.

dragged back. Which power was will Westminster take back? They could

:35:44.:35:48.

take powers back over the NHS, for example. There is no indication they

:35:49.:35:55.

want to do that. The Tories have attacked the Welsh NHS. That is my

:35:56.:36:04.

point! Quite viciously. If they increase their mandate, I wouldn't

:36:05.:36:07.

put it past them to try to take power was back over the NHS and then

:36:08.:36:12.

of course we risk our NHS being privatised though this election is

:36:13.:36:17.

all about defending Wales, protecting Welsh people from further

:36:18.:36:20.

privatisation and cuts and a power grab from the Tories. Why is there

:36:21.:36:24.

never a breakthrough for your party, Plaid Cymru? Labour dominated in

:36:25.:36:29.

Wales for years, the Tories do quite well, Ukip had a surge for a while,

:36:30.:36:33.

it looks like the Tories will have another surge, never you, always the

:36:34.:36:38.

bridesmaid, never the bride. Wait until Thursday and I think you will

:36:39.:36:42.

see that in many parts of Wales we will increase our representation at

:36:43.:36:45.

a local council level. In the Rhondda, where I am assembly member,

:36:46.:36:52.

we are looking to increase our representation... You are only 13%

:36:53.:37:00.

in the polls will stop which is half of even the Tories in Wales! If you

:37:01.:37:04.

don't breakthrough in the selection, if the real problem is going

:37:05.:37:11.

nowhere, do you think you will pack it in? Robert Green not, I have a

:37:12.:37:16.

job to do, a vision of Wales which is about building up our nation and

:37:17.:37:20.

standing on our own two feet and my job is not done yet. Thank you for

:37:21.:37:24.

being with us as part of your job, we will see how it goes on Thursday.

:37:25.:37:28.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:37:29.:37:30.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

:37:31.:37:33.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.

:37:34.:37:40.

Hello, I'm Lucie Fisher, coming up on the Sunday Politics

:37:41.:37:45.

Politicians standing in Thursday's local elections face

:37:46.:37:51.

I'd like to know what you're going to do about social care.

:37:52.:38:04.

And for the next 20 minutes, I'm joined by four candidates hoping

:38:05.:38:06.

to be elected to Devon County Council.

:38:07.:38:08.

The Conservative group leader and current leader

:38:09.:38:10.

of the council John Hart, if his party loses more than seven

:38:11.:38:13.

Lib Dem leader Alan Connett, one of ten Liberal Democrats.

:38:14.:38:18.

Ukip group leader Robin Julian, currently one of four

:38:19.:38:20.

And Labour's Rob Hannaford, the only one of Labour's seven Devon

:38:21.:38:24.

county councillors not retiring at these elections.

:38:25.:38:27.

OK. Rob, if we start with you before we go to questions. Let's get a

:38:28.:38:42.

sense of what you think is the most important issue of this election. I

:38:43.:38:49.

think it's the chronic underfunding of local government. Local

:38:50.:38:51.

government have taken the brunt of austerity measures that haven't

:38:52.:38:56.

worked. We've got to readdress that. Front line services are being cut

:38:57.:39:00.

and reduced and we can't go forward in this way anymore. John, that

:39:01.:39:05.

makes it difficult for you, doesn't it? You've got a Tory government is

:39:06.:39:10.

making these cards and you as a Tory have got to put them forward? In

:39:11.:39:16.

2009 when I took it control of this council I said the country had been

:39:17.:39:21.

spending money it hadn't got for ten years. Local government was going to

:39:22.:39:27.

get hurt. We've restructured and reorganised Devon County Council.

:39:28.:39:30.

We've reduced spending by 267 million pounds. It has meant a 5%

:39:31.:39:39.

hike, hasn't it? But the biggest problem in local government in my

:39:40.:39:43.

view is the care cost. Social care. Looking after the old. The

:39:44.:39:48.

vulnerable. That's very much what is going to be a very big Bill. A big

:39:49.:39:55.

Bill for local government and for Devon. As a Lib Dem would you agree

:39:56.:40:02.

that social care and is a key issue? It is at the top. As well as school

:40:03.:40:08.

budget, fixing roads, these are the things people talk about today in,

:40:09.:40:14.

day out. Robin, Ukip, are you hearing the same thing? Certainly.

:40:15.:40:17.

We've had underfunding. We started We've had underfunding. We started

:40:18.:40:21.

at a low ebb before cuts came in. The biggest problem we've got is

:40:22.:40:29.

hospitals and community hospitals. And part holds. It is a nightmare.

:40:30.:40:34.

it is panicking the people in our it is panicking the people in

:40:35.:40:37.

We will come back to these issues. We will come back to these issues.

:40:38.:40:43.

But first of all, Thursday's local elections are taking place in all

:40:44.:40:47.

four counties and our reporters have been out listening to the voters.

:40:48.:41:01.

These local elections across our four counties are your chance to

:41:02.:41:06.

have your say about the issues that matter to you. Not least here in

:41:07.:41:12.

Cornwall. Closing hospitals. Hospitals. Get some carers, get them

:41:13.:41:16.

fully trained and pay them what they deserve. Funding for schools. Stop

:41:17.:41:23.

building on every scrap of land available. Leave space for nature.

:41:24.:41:29.

What about Devon? Exeter, here we come. It's probably best not to take

:41:30.:41:39.

a megaphone in here. With cuts in funding the county council has had

:41:40.:41:41.

to make savings. One way to do that to make savings. One way to do that

:41:42.:41:45.

is give the responsibility of charities. We've been able to be

:41:46.:41:52.

more flexible. We've had friends we wouldn't have been able to access.

:41:53.:41:55.

You must consider building more You must consider building more

:41:56.:41:58.

hospitals before building more houses. Pot holes another talking

:41:59.:42:07.

point but another way the county council is saving money is by asking

:42:08.:42:10.

volunteers to fail in small roles like this one. The council do the

:42:11.:42:14.

big holes. We do them before they get big. It's the old story, a

:42:15.:42:21.

stitch in time, saves nine. Over to you in Dorset. This is Dorset's

:42:22.:42:29.

traditional Tory heartland. The traditional Tory heartland. The

:42:30.:42:34.

Conservatives are the largest voice in local democracy. Austerity

:42:35.:42:36.

budgets have seen the library service paid to the bone, and the

:42:37.:42:41.

rural bus network decimated. But the letters dominate the backdrop to

:42:42.:42:48.

this election. Elegy are. Local government reorganisation. The plans

:42:49.:42:52.

to merge into unitary authorities may not seem much to shout about,

:42:53.:42:56.

but it's a big issue here. There are too many councils. What matters to

:42:57.:43:04.

you locally? Funding for schools. If plans for the new structure get

:43:05.:43:08.

approval by the government it will mean new elections in two years'

:43:09.:43:12.

time. People here will have to go to the polls all over again. So, what

:43:13.:43:19.

about Somerset? People have been making their voices heard on key

:43:20.:43:24.

issues be a children's services, rated inadequate, superfast

:43:25.:43:28.

broadband or improvements to key roads in Somerset. The next voice we

:43:29.:43:32.

hear really will be yours, at the ballot box next week.

:43:33.:43:36.

So let's kick off the debate between these Devon councillors,

:43:37.:43:41.

with our first question from a voter...

:43:42.:43:48.

Hello, I'd like to know what you're going to do about social care. We

:43:49.:43:56.

have a friend who was having trouble with her hip, and she's having great

:43:57.:44:01.

difficulty getting any social care to give her a hand. OK, so as

:44:02.:44:08.

predicted, one of our first questions about social care. John,

:44:09.:44:13.

we come to you as leader of the council. What will you do about

:44:14.:44:17.

this? We've already reorganising lot of these social care. We've brought

:44:18.:44:23.

in islet work in Exeter, integrated care. We've got to work close with

:44:24.:44:28.

our partners in health and a voluntary sector in order to improve

:44:29.:44:32.

the opportunity for people. We put ?19 million into the budget this

:44:33.:44:38.

year. By putting up council tax. By putting up council tax we raised ?10

:44:39.:44:43.

million. We put ?19 million into the budget. Rob, is this enough? I think

:44:44.:44:52.

we've done some good work. In terms of paying carers, for example, but

:44:53.:44:56.

as John has said this was not enough. We should have had more

:44:57.:45:00.

money to make this workable. What would you have done though? You

:45:01.:45:05.

raise council tax to the maximum allowed to cope with social care,

:45:06.:45:10.

why should people vote Labour? I supported the rising council tax to

:45:11.:45:13.

support social care because that goes some way to help people. We

:45:14.:45:18.

need to readdress this balance between central and local government

:45:19.:45:22.

where they expect us to do a large number of services without adequate

:45:23.:45:26.

funding. This is a pure example of this. We are not having a realistic

:45:27.:45:31.

conversation in terms of integrated health and social care. The other

:45:32.:45:35.

big issue is getting the carers to see as a valid profession. Better

:45:36.:45:40.

training, seeing it as a vocation. Better paid? Better pay is also part

:45:41.:45:45.

of it. But bad money is got to come from somewhere. What is more

:45:46.:45:53.

important banking for people in their own homes. Allen, do you agree

:45:54.:45:58.

with Rob? For us this is about the fact that people are frightened of

:45:59.:46:04.

getting old. They are frightened of becoming unwell. Good work is

:46:05.:46:07.

happening but there is an issue about recruiting, keeping and caring

:46:08.:46:12.

staff. Carers do some incredibly personal tasks. And the issue is

:46:13.:46:18.

about raising money. But we need and nationally, to fix a broken system.

:46:19.:46:22.

In Devon I'd like to see a public enquiry bringing health and social

:46:23.:46:26.

get-together. There is an epidemic of loneliness and we are not finding

:46:27.:46:31.

a solution. Do you think John has a fair point, money is tight and be

:46:32.:46:36.

doing the best they can? No. There is a lot of waste. More money could

:46:37.:46:42.

be directed towards caring. The county are spending a lot of money,

:46:43.:46:47.

some of which could be redirected. John, you are spending money that

:46:48.:46:52.

could be redirected to social care? Allen is a spin doctor in the county

:46:53.:46:57.

council. He talks about ?2.8 million, ?2 million is payment. We

:46:58.:47:05.

have members of staff. We spent ?500,000 on communications which we

:47:06.:47:11.

have to do for all sorts of things including getting more care workers.

:47:12.:47:17.

So you refer to that suggestion? I referred to the suggestion that

:47:18.:47:23.

there is a waste. I will say that we can, and will, we go through this

:47:24.:47:28.

all the time, but the point is that ?2.8 million. I know I've got to

:47:29.:47:34.

take ?30 million over 2018 budget. We will be reviewing everything we

:47:35.:47:39.

spend money on. Robin, social care, is John making sense to you? We are

:47:40.:47:45.

starting from a low ebb before we had these cuts. Eight years. John

:47:46.:47:52.

has just said that in 2018 another ?30 million. You are looking at ?300

:47:53.:47:57.

million being cut out of this county. We should not be giving more

:47:58.:48:00.

money to central government. We should be asking them to leave

:48:01.:48:04.

the money where it is so we can work on it.

:48:05.:48:08.

I go round on the streets and the elderly are so worried that they

:48:09.:48:09.

might lose their homes. might lose their homes.

:48:10.:48:14.

Why should they vote Ukip? We are the local people in the party. Local

:48:15.:48:18.

issues. That's what I've been fighting. It's

:48:19.:48:23.

the United Kingdom Independence the United Kingdom Independence

:48:24.:48:29.

party. Why would they vote you? We are independent of Ukip. I am an

:48:30.:48:34.

independent person looking at local issues and working jolly hard. We've

:48:35.:48:38.

hospital. Also with other parties hospital. Also with other parties

:48:39.:48:42.

we've been fighting to keep out at hospital. It's vital we are...

:48:43.:48:50.

John, can you do anything about the closure of cottage hospitals?

:48:51.:48:54.

It's not the responsibility of local government. We supported a unanimous

:48:55.:48:59.

vote at the council: two tell the EJB to look at what they are doing.

:49:00.:49:03.

They need to put in place whatever they want to do before they start

:49:04.:49:06.

It is time for a second question It is time for a second question

:49:07.:49:11.

from the voters. We have a question from Ivybridge this time. What will

:49:12.:49:16.

you do about the housing situation for young working families. We

:49:17.:49:19.

managed to get onto the housing market but it was a struggle. It's a

:49:20.:49:24.

bigger struggle for a lot of young families in Devon.

:49:25.:49:27.

Alan, I know that Devon County Council doesn't have authority

:49:28.:49:40.

over planning applications, but you do think about housing numbers. Is

:49:41.:49:43.

this something that should be in your control? Should there be a

:49:44.:49:45.

regional to make sure Devon County Council does have influence over

:49:46.:49:49.

housing? Ie personally favour a change in the way local government

:49:50.:49:53.

is set up. We have to deal with the reality now. If we are going to

:49:54.:50:01.

create jobs for people, we need to create the housing that is available

:50:02.:50:07.

and local. Here is the issue. So many of our council set out to

:50:08.:50:13.

developments, 20, 25, 30%, but trade developments, 20, 25, 30%, but trade

:50:14.:50:18.

it's not viable. I think the role it's not viable. I think the role

:50:19.:50:22.

the county can play is to take an overview and look at the land it's

:50:23.:50:26.

got. The buildings it got to make that available. Although John says

:50:27.:50:31.

there is no waste, there is waste at County Hall, believe me. I've seen

:50:32.:50:43.

it. I know it. We need to do a better job. All of this plays into a

:50:44.:50:45.

much more positive and vibrant approach will get in Devon back on

:50:46.:50:49.

its feet. John, what are you going to do about this? We are no longer

:50:50.:50:53.

responsible for housing numbers as we used to be. Is that a shame?

:50:54.:51:03.

Should you have responsibility? We put the housing into the devolution

:51:04.:51:08.

bid. The issue we have at the moment is money, price, Carr house, land.

:51:09.:51:13.

If the land is cheap, the price of how should become cheaper. It

:51:14.:51:16.

doesn't work like that. doesn't work like that.

:51:17.:51:20.

We have a cohort of developers who are building for the private sector.

:51:21.:51:26.

There is a small demand for the public sector, we need more money

:51:27.:51:29.

into the public sector... I have to move on, because, Rob, is

:51:30.:51:35.

this something you would agree with? The devolution bid to be looking at

:51:36.:51:39.

bringing housing into the remit of the county council?

:51:40.:51:43.

I would be happy to do anything that would alleviate the housing crisis.

:51:44.:51:47.

It's the biggest domestic political issue we've got and it's a scandal

:51:48.:51:51.

that the government is not doing something about it.

:51:52.:51:55.

We need a mass building programme. A lot of families we spoke to said

:51:56.:52:01.

that affordable isn't affordable. Yes, affordable does not mean

:52:02.:52:05.

affordable. We need social houses, better regulation and thousands of

:52:06.:52:10.

people in Devon having secure tenancies and poor conditions. This

:52:11.:52:13.

needs to be at the top of the agenda both locally and centrally.

:52:14.:52:19.

Briefly, are you happy with the progress of the devolution bid, the

:52:20.:52:22.

idea of more powerful unitary authority? We are not moving in

:52:23.:52:30.

Devon to a unitary authority. What we are doing is bespoke bits of work

:52:31.:52:35.

on issues such as transport, housing growth and economic growth. You

:52:36.:52:38.

wouldn't like it to be a unitary authority? I don't support that. I

:52:39.:52:41.

didn't last time and wouldn't this time. The issue is not the

:52:42.:52:47.

structures, it's the funding coming into local government so that we can

:52:48.:52:51.

do the job we need to do. Robin, is this fast enough for you? I feel

:52:52.:52:59.

that when you get property perspective is going in for housing

:53:00.:53:04.

they say they will build X amount of thousands of homes, 500 homes, then

:53:05.:53:09.

they start backtracking. They backtrack. And in the end there's

:53:10.:53:14.

very little social housing. I would like to see council houses back.

:53:15.:53:18.

I think we should reverse the whole thing. Is that something that the

:53:19.:53:23.

county council or to be able to... They should be looking at it. We

:53:24.:53:29.

really should be starting to demand, people can't afford it.

:53:30.:53:32.

They are still at home at 45. It's ridiculous. John, something that you

:53:33.:53:38.

could deal with? There needs to be more involvement in social housing,

:53:39.:53:42.

more pressure to find social housing. Low-cost housing is not low

:53:43.:53:51.

cost, and it is a problem. It's a problem in a low-wage authority led

:53:52.:53:55.

Devon. We have more questions. Third, final question. My concern is

:53:56.:54:05.

pot holes. I got my car damaged, it they did pay for me to get it fixed

:54:06.:54:10.

but I've noticed there are pot holes around on the road and they want to

:54:11.:54:13.

know when this is going to be resolved?

:54:14.:54:16.

Robin, you mentioned this at the start of the programme. What are you

:54:17.:54:22.

won't do about pot holes? I'd like to see more money invested. Not have

:54:23.:54:25.

the cut central government are imposing so we would have more

:54:26.:54:31.

money. We are eight point 5000 miles of road, we are billions of pounds

:54:32.:54:37.

short looking after the roads. People's cars are getting damaged.

:54:38.:54:42.

Half ?1 million of the people that actually reported it, and even more

:54:43.:54:48.

on doorstep to haven't even bothered.

:54:49.:54:53.

Alan, is this ridiculous? People are claiming to mend their cars and Rob

:54:54.:54:57.

Hannaford was being filled back in. Increasingly people have their cars

:54:58.:55:02.

damaged. But even when the pot holes are fixed, it is shoddy. So what is

:55:03.:55:10.

the solution? This comes down to the fact that the Conservatives have

:55:11.:55:14.

taken a ride off the ball. We would have put more money into pot holes.

:55:15.:55:21.

But where is the money coming from? John is quite right the council have

:55:22.:55:26.

had to deal with a budget. But there is waste. I will show you an

:55:27.:55:31.

example. This envelope sent to me by county Hall yesterday.

:55:32.:55:35.

First class. This envelope with another envelope inside and only

:55:36.:55:38.

five bits of paper for an event in May.

:55:39.:55:43.

This is a simple one or ?2, but there are thousands going out at

:55:44.:55:48.

County Hall which wasted. We can put about money where it is really

:55:49.:55:50.

needed. John, if you stopped sending out

:55:51.:55:55.

things like this mail you could fix the pot holes. We put our own money

:55:56.:56:00.

into the pot holes. We got ?3.1 million from the government fought

:56:01.:56:08.

pot holes. And patching. That's on top of the standard budget. It's

:56:09.:56:13.

still not enough. I was going to ask Rob here is it enough and is

:56:14.:56:18.

volunteer is the answer? I'm not sure that volunteers are the answer.

:56:19.:56:22.

At a time of our study the best thing any government can do is

:56:23.:56:26.

invest in infrastructure such as roads and pavements. The issue we

:56:27.:56:30.

also have here is the directive which covers these issues is in

:56:31.:56:33.

competition with the people side of it which is demand led. Vulnerable

:56:34.:56:38.

children and elderly people are always competing against pot holes.

:56:39.:56:43.

You will put money in? From where? Pot holes is the number-1 issue in

:56:44.:56:48.

our postbag but that doesn't mean we can't child protection issues. We

:56:49.:56:54.

should have managers inspecting these holes when they finished and

:56:55.:56:59.

they should have look at them. That would cost money. We have two move

:57:00.:57:07.

on. It's not being done properly! There are a full list of candidates

:57:08.:57:11.

on the elections on Council websites.

:57:12.:57:12.

In Devon they include representatives of the East Devon

:57:13.:57:15.

Independent Alliance, the Liberal Party, 18

:57:16.:57:17.

Independents and 43 candidates representing the Green Party.

:57:18.:57:25.

party because they will hold the party because they will hold the

:57:26.:57:32.

Tories to account on the worst excesses of austerity. People quite

:57:33.:57:40.

often say that we can't afford these policies. But often there is a

:57:41.:57:45.

question of priorities. What Green councillors will do is not be afraid

:57:46.:57:49.

to ask the awkward questions and challenge the Tories on their

:57:50.:57:50.

priorities. Now our regular round-up

:57:51.:57:51.

of the political week Devon's Conservative MPs write to

:57:52.:58:08.

the PM asking her to put more money into the county's schools in the

:58:09.:58:14.

manifesto. Meanwhile Devon's Lib Dem councillors called for a local

:58:15.:58:17.

public enquiry into the state of the NHS. Callers submits its bid to

:58:18.:58:29.

become the UK's first spaceport. It happens in other countries, in

:58:30.:58:33.

America and Russia. We are confident that it could happen right year. Why

:58:34.:58:40.

the government has asked to save the county's post opposites. Can I ask

:58:41.:58:44.

the Minister to take account of rural post office services in places

:58:45.:58:48.

like Cornwall to make sure people get the they want. And the Seagull

:58:49.:58:55.

menace to bring new twist this week as one bird bit off more than he

:58:56.:58:58.

could chew in stealing some false teeth in Torquay. All the fun things

:58:59.:59:09.

happening Torquay! School funding, Rob, if I come to you first. Devon's

:59:10.:59:15.

served MPs have asked the PM to put more money for the county's schools

:59:16.:59:22.

in the manifesto, is that fair? I think the question that needs to be

:59:23.:59:28.

asked is at the moment, all of the region's MPs are conservatives.

:59:29.:59:33.

Apart from one. If we lose that and more are elected naturally the

:59:34.:59:36.

attraction to get fit funding could be last in a huge majority.

:59:37.:59:42.

In terms of school funding the consulting needs to stop. We know

:59:43.:59:45.

our schools are dreadfully underfunded.

:59:46.:59:48.

We need action. Alan, what do you make of the politics? The politics

:59:49.:59:55.

is quite cynical. The government has been underfunded for years. Add to

:59:56.:59:58.

that the Conservatives putting a further 2.2 million in. They have a

:59:59.:00:05.

big down on education in Devon and we need to put that right. John,

:00:06.:00:09.

this is cynical of the Tories, can they say we need more funding? I was

:00:10.:00:14.

one of the founders of the group complaining about underfunding.

:00:15.:00:20.

Devon did get ?160 million extra for schools. I'm delighted BMPs are

:00:21.:00:24.

fighting with us this time instead of sitting on the fans.

:00:25.:00:29.

OK. Thank you all very much, sorry Robin to cut you off there.

:00:30.:00:31.

That's the Sunday Politics in the South West.

:00:32.:00:33.

Now back to Andrew with the Week Ahead.

:00:34.:00:35.

we will take the mandate that we want. To all three of you, thank

:00:36.:00:40.

you. Andrew, back to you. So, how will Thursday's local

:00:41.:00:52.

election results affect Who's winning the

:00:53.:00:54.

election ground war? And as he celebrates 100

:00:55.:00:56.

days in the White House, We have the local elections, Metro

:00:57.:01:14.

elections in Liverpool, greater Birmingham, West Midlands, how will

:01:15.:01:19.

they play into the general election? Significantly, it is very unusual.

:01:20.:01:22.

People keep comparing this with the election in 83, not! Margaret

:01:23.:01:27.

Thatcher was nervous and to wait until after the local elections to

:01:28.:01:31.

call the election to see the result. We are getting these result in the

:01:32.:01:35.

middle of an election campaign so it will be important, whoever does

:01:36.:01:41.

badly will suffer a dent in confidence in terms of how they

:01:42.:01:44.

approach the election and we are also going to have mayoral figures

:01:45.:01:49.

as a reminder of another big difference with the 80s that however

:01:50.:01:54.

big, say, the Conservatives win in Westminster, there are now sectors

:01:55.:01:57.

of power in other parts of the United Kingdom which were not there

:01:58.:02:01.

in the 80s. One of the reasons niches that are rated in 83 was

:02:02.:02:06.

memories were still alive in political circles of 1970, Wilson

:02:07.:02:11.

saw the local election results and thought, I can win, he was told he

:02:12.:02:16.

would win by the Economist magazine, who had done the analysis, and of

:02:17.:02:20.

course he lost, so that is why she waited, Mrs May does not need to

:02:21.:02:28.

wait for that at all now, and on the Metro elections, the one she will be

:02:29.:02:31.

looking at is the West Midlands, that is the one that is a

:02:32.:02:34.

competition. I think she can really lose on Thursday in the local

:02:35.:02:38.

elections, governing parties are supposed to take effect again,

:02:39.:02:42.

losing lots of council seats. She is projected to put on 100 or so seats,

:02:43.:02:48.

Labour projected to lose around 200, the first time the main opposition

:02:49.:02:53.

party has shed seats since something like 83 so clearly the local

:02:54.:02:56.

elections give Mrs May great momentum going into the general

:02:57.:03:00.

election campaign but there is a downside in that, which is what we

:03:01.:03:03.

have already heard fighting about this morning, if it looks like it is

:03:04.:03:08.

going too well for the Tories, it says to voters, why bother turning

:03:09.:03:13.

up? Sushi comes up with totally unbelievable sound bites this

:03:14.:03:16.

morning that this is the most important general election in her

:03:17.:03:22.

lifetime. Really?! For her it is! It always is until the next one! I

:03:23.:03:28.

wonder if voter turnout is a problem? Tory voters are more likely

:03:29.:03:33.

to vote than Labour voters. If there is a sense that it is all over bar

:03:34.:03:39.

the shouting, the overall turnout will be low that Tory voters are

:03:40.:03:43.

still likely to turn out more than Labour voters so she would still win

:03:44.:03:47.

some. I don't think she needs to be too worried, I think there will be a

:03:48.:03:52.

significantly low turnout, even I am finding it hard to be that excited

:03:53.:03:59.

about this general election. Really, the policies, we have spent a lot of

:04:00.:04:03.

time talking about them today and we have to examine them, but all this

:04:04.:04:07.

is about is, do you want Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn in Number Ten?

:04:08.:04:12.

Those are the only question is, apart from possibly how strong do

:04:13.:04:15.

you feel about Brexit, that will be on the voters' minds. You may say

:04:16.:04:21.

that but I will not be put off from going through a list of policies

:04:22.:04:25.

that we have already had in the last 24 hours. On the Conservatives, more

:04:26.:04:31.

powers to stop company bosses under pensions, of course Philip Green was

:04:32.:04:39.

in mind there. Labour has come up with quite a few policies, actually,

:04:40.:04:44.

give all work of equal rights, whether part-time or full-time,

:04:45.:04:53.

temporary or permanent. Ukip, scrap VAT or takeaway -- on takeaway food

:04:54.:04:58.

and end the BBC licence fee. The Liberal Democrats have come out

:04:59.:05:04.

posed to the runway at Heathrow. I thought I knew that already? Will

:05:05.:05:11.

any of these policies make a difference? They are all nice handy

:05:12.:05:17.

things that people quite liked but probably not, is the answer. They

:05:18.:05:21.

are an awful way away from polling day now for people to remember and

:05:22.:05:25.

latch onto. I don't think you make your mind up on small issues like

:05:26.:05:31.

Heathrow, unless you live in Richmond-upon-Thames, maybe, but the

:05:32.:05:34.

problem Labour have got with unfailing a lot of these retail type

:05:35.:05:38.

policies which, in themselves, are very popular, is no one will listen

:05:39.:05:43.

to them until they get over the leadership credibility issue. Jeremy

:05:44.:05:47.

Corbyn could the world on a stick, but if no one believes he can

:05:48.:05:50.

deliver it then he will not be listened to and he has not done much

:05:51.:05:53.

apart from a speech yesterday in which is claim to fame was getting

:05:54.:05:56.

arrested, I don't see how that would work for him getting to Number Ten.

:05:57.:06:03.

They are not making progress on it. Labour has rolled out a number of

:06:04.:06:09.

policies which, taken individually, would have certain traction in

:06:10.:06:14.

normal times, quite interesting ideas, this sense of unfairness, a

:06:15.:06:17.

feeling that ordinary workers have not done well out of the recovery,

:06:18.:06:22.

those who caused the crash have, 20 points, I went through some of them

:06:23.:06:26.

earlier, putting aside they are not costed, we are assured they will be.

:06:27.:06:31.

The problem I suggest is not the costing but the cut through? Every

:06:32.:06:37.

election has a context which is determined by opinion polls, however

:06:38.:06:41.

sceptical we are these days, and if one party is way ahead it is

:06:42.:06:44.

difficult for the other party to appear relevant, because if people

:06:45.:06:49.

assume they are not going to win, even some of its own MPs are saying,

:06:50.:06:54.

we are not going to win this, so you can vote for us, it is very hard to

:06:55.:07:01.

get attention and relevance. Where I think all the parties are bad with

:07:02.:07:05.

their current leaders is framing arguments, so those policies you

:07:06.:07:11.

have highlighted makes sense. The best leaders are brilliant framers

:07:12.:07:14.

of an argument and neither Theresa Maynor Jeremy Corbyn R. They have

:07:15.:07:21.

been campaigning, their manifestos are not out yet, both sides have

:07:22.:07:25.

been telling us we have to wait for costings, but it has not stopped

:07:26.:07:28.

them campaigning. Let's remind you of where they have been and what

:07:29.:07:34.

they have been doing so far. Let's start with Jeremy Corbyn, his

:07:35.:07:39.

first official visit was in the ultra-marginal Conservative seat of

:07:40.:07:42.

Croydon Central where the MP Gavin Barwell has a lead of just 165. That

:07:43.:07:48.

is not the only Conservative seat he has visited, along the way he popped

:07:49.:07:52.

in on Bristol North West, a Conservative majority of nearly

:07:53.:07:59.

5000. The Tory seat of Cardiff North, a lead of just over 2000,

:08:00.:08:06.

Warrington South, just over 2700, and Crewe and Nantwich, Tory

:08:07.:08:10.

majority of three and a half thousand. Yesterday he visited

:08:11.:08:16.

Bethnal greed and Bob, a Labour lead of 20 4000. Theresa May kicked off

:08:17.:08:21.

her campaign in Bolton, Labour majority of over 4000. On her way

:08:22.:08:26.

round the UK she had a comfy stop in her own maidenhead seat, where she

:08:27.:08:31.

is defending a majority of nearly 30,000, before travelling to other

:08:32.:08:34.

Labour marginals including Dudley North, a Labour lead of 4000.

:08:35.:08:41.

Bridgend, a lead of just under 2004 Labour, before becoming ambitious

:08:42.:08:43.

and visiting shadow minister Richard Bergen's Leeds East seat, which he

:08:44.:08:59.

won by over 12,500 votes. Yesterday she went north of the border to

:09:00.:09:01.

Aberdeenshire, where amongst other places she visited the SNP seat of

:09:02.:09:04.

West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine, where the Tories would have to gain

:09:05.:09:05.

over 7000 votes to unseat the NP. What do you make of it all so far?

:09:06.:09:13.

It is remarkable she is doing these visits in Scotland. Past but even

:09:14.:09:16.

five years and the idea of a Tory Prime Minister going round Scotland

:09:17.:09:20.

would be utterly counter-productive, and actually they are ambitious for

:09:21.:09:25.

Scotland now under with Davidson, a prospect of multiple seats, and that

:09:26.:09:29.

would be a real genuine shift in Scottish politics, the likes of

:09:30.:09:32.

which we have not seen for 15 or 20 years. If she gets that, that helps

:09:33.:09:42.

towards 100 seats, because if she wins ten in Scotland, it is

:09:43.:09:47.

effectively 20, the SNP lose ten, she gains ten, she wants to do that

:09:48.:09:51.

in the Midlands with Labour, and the North. To get the 100 majority,

:09:52.:09:57.

other than Scotland, she has to win Labour seats, that is all that is

:09:58.:10:02.

there. And clearly she has been told, it is obvious, that she has a

:10:03.:10:05.

chance of doing so, otherwise you don't go to these parts of the

:10:06.:10:09.

country in the first few days of the campaign. All logic points to her

:10:10.:10:14.

being able to pull it off as well. The opinion polls, the state of the

:10:15.:10:19.

Labour Party. The only qualification I have in this is that politics is

:10:20.:10:23.

so wild and free Braille at the moment, it doesn't feel like

:10:24.:10:30.

landslide to rain. That is true, it doesn't. It is early days, we

:10:31.:10:36.

haven't yet had the manifestos, the campaign is yet to gather momentum.

:10:37.:10:39.

It doesn't feel like landslide territory. I disagree, look at every

:10:40.:10:48.

single poll, the Tory lead is 10% in Wales, you can see her picking up 20

:10:49.:10:52.

seat there. Put this together, I am told by the way she is going into

:10:53.:10:57.

traditional Labour heartland again tomorrow, the key is the Ukip vote.

:10:58.:11:02.

That will implode... Crumble towards Tories? If she can hoover that up

:11:03.:11:22.

and retain the Tory vote, she will have a majority of 150.

:11:23.:11:22.

I cannot let you go without reminding you that it is Donald

:11:23.:11:23.

Trump's 100 days. He's not making a lot of it now, this is what he said

:11:24.:11:23.

last night. We are just beginning in our fight

:11:24.:11:26.

to make America great again. Now, before we talk about my first

:11:27.:11:29.

100 days, which has been very exciting and very productive,

:11:30.:11:38.

let's rate the media's 100 days. Because, as you know,

:11:39.:11:43.

they are a disgrace. There you go, still bashing the

:11:44.:12:02.

media, that was at a rally in Virginia, the 100 days was last

:12:03.:12:08.

night. He seems happier campaigning than running the country. You each

:12:09.:12:11.

have 20 seconds to give me your board on the first 100 days.

:12:12.:12:20.

Remarkable, he will not stop slagging off the media but America

:12:21.:12:25.

first has not meant America first in terms of national policy, he has

:12:26.:12:28.

reneges on what he said about Nato being obsolete. He is moving from

:12:29.:12:33.

the old right to the centre because that is where you get things done,

:12:34.:12:41.

he is a pragmatist, also is about's friend Nigel Parrott is no longer

:12:42.:12:47.

welcome, we read this morning! Allegedly! He loves campaigning but

:12:48.:12:52.

finds governing much more difficult. Who would have thought being

:12:53.:12:56.

president of the United States was a difficult job?! He loves rallies but

:12:57.:12:59.

being president and politics is a very difficult thing indeed. Thank

:13:00.:13:05.

you, there we go, Mr Trump's 100 days, we will see what the next 100

:13:06.:13:07.

brings. The Daily Politics is back

:13:08.:13:10.

on BBC Two after the bank holiday on Tuesday at midday,

:13:11.:13:13.

with all the latest And I'll be back here

:13:14.:13:15.

on BBC One next Sunday Remember - if it's Sunday,

:13:16.:13:19.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:20.:13:29.

Andrew Neil and Lucie Fisher are joined by Labour elections coordinator Ian Lavery MP and Plaid Cymru leader Leanne Wood AM. The Political Panel consists of journalist Isabel Oakeshott, Tom Newton-Dunn of The Sun and journalist Steve Richards.


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