30/04/2017 Sunday Politics South West

It's Sunday Morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

Theresa May says she has no plans to increase tax levels,

but refuses to repeat David Cameron's 2015 manifesto

promise ruling out hikes in VAT, national insurance and income tax.

The leaders of the EU's 27 member states unanimously

agree their negotiating strategy for the upcoming Brexit talks, but

And in the last of our series of interviews ahead of Thursday's

In the South West: to the leader of Plaid Cymru Leanne

A local election special, we put your questions to candidates.

They hit an all-time low after coalition government,

but are the Lib Dems poised to bounce back,

And with me to analyse the week's politics,

Isabel Oakeshott, Steve Richards, Tom Newton-Dunn.

They'll be tweeting using the hashtag #bbcsp.

So when Theresa May was interviewed just over an hour ago

on The Andrew Marr Show, the Prime Minister was asked

to confirm that she would repeat David Cameron's 2015 election

promise not to raise VAT, national insurance and income tax

We have absolutely no plans to increase the level of tax,

but I'm also very clear that I don't want to make specific proposals

on taxes unless I'm absolutely sure that I can deliver on those.

But it is, would be my intention as a Conservative Government

and a Conservative Prime Minister, to reduce the taxes

The Tories like to have a clear tax message in elections, are they

getting into a bit of a mess? That method wasn't clear, but does it

mean, saying they have no plans to increase the level of tax? We are

clear there will not be a rise in VAT, a lot of commentators will get

overexcited about that, but there was no great expectations there

would be a rise in VAT. Tempting as it is, because even one percentage

point on VAT rate is 4.5 billion for the exchequer so it is tempting but

there has been no speculation that would happen. We can see that she

clearly wants to reiterate the language about hard-working families

but I don't think we are that much the wiser. Even if she does not put

up rates, according to projections the overall tax burden, as a

percentage of GDP, is rising, will rise in the years ahead. That is why

it was an odd phrase, I know she is doing it to be evasive but to say

they have no plans to raise the general level of taxation, they do

have. We also know they have specific plans because it was in the

last budget, they had a tax rise which they had to revise, National

Insurance rises, so very wisely in my view they are keeping options

open, the 2015 tax-and-spend debate was a fantasy world, totally

unrelated to the demands that would follow. They now have the

flexibility, one of the arguments you had heard last time was Philip

Hammond saying to her, we have to break away from the 2015 manifesto

commitment and we can only do it this way, that is one of the better

arguments. The Tories like to talk about tax cuts in elections, whether

they do it is another matter, but they are not being allowed to talk

about tax cuts, they are now on the defensive over whether they will

raise taxes. That is not a healthy position for the campaign to be in.

If you look at the numbers, quite frankly, if you will not do this at

this election with eight 20 point lead over Labour, then when will you

take these tough decisions? Reading between the lines of what Theresa

May has said all over different broadcasters this morning, income

tax will go down for low-income families, such as the threshold rise

that microbes that was already factored in. She has had to commit

to it again. VAT will be fat, national insurance contributions

will go up. Do you think they will go up? I think so, she had plenty of

opportunity to rule it out and she didn't. There was a terrible mess

with the budget, it is a good tax argument but not a good electoral

argument that you are eroding the base so heavily with people moving

into self-employment that as you raise national insurance

contributions for everybody but the self-employed, it is something the

Treasury will have to look at. The other triple lock on pensions, we

don't know if they will keep to that either? If they are sensible they

will find a form of words to give them flexibility in that area as

well. I would say there is no question over that, that has gone.

As Mrs May would say, you will have to wait for the manifesto. That is

what all the party leaders tell me! Labour have spent the weekend

pushing their messages Speaking at a camapign rally

in London yesterday, Jeremy Corbyn promised a Labour

government would fix what he called People are fed up, fed up with not

being able to get somewhere to live, fed up waiting for hospital

appointments, fed up with 0-hours contracts, fed up with low pay, fed

up with debt, fed up with not being able to get on in their lives

because we have a system that is rigged against so many.

I've been joined from Newcastle by Labour's elections

and campaigns co-ordinator, Ian Lavery.

Good morning. To deal with this rigged economy, as Mr Corbyn calls

it, the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell has a 20 point plan for

workers out today. When you add up everything he plans to do to help

workers, how much will it cost? The full costings, one thing I need to

say at the very beginning, the costings of any policy which we have

already ruled out and any policy we will be ruling out in the next few

days and weeks will be fully costed in the manifesto and in addition to

the fact that it will be fully costed, we will see it in the

manifesto how indeed it has been funded, so we are very clear,

anything we have seen already, and there are some exciting policy

releases and there will be more in the future, anything we are going to

do will be fully costed and in the manifesto. You announced a 20 point

plan but cannot tell me what the costs will be this morning so at the

moment it is a menu without prices? It is not a menu without prices, it

is a fantastic opportunity. This 20 point plan is something which will

transform the lives of millions of millions of people in the

workplace... But what is the cost? It will be welcomed by many people

across the UK. The fact the costings have not been released, you will

have to be patient, it will be released very clearly, it will

identify that in the manifesto. Let me come down to one of the points,

the end of the public sector pay freeze. Can you give us any idea how

much that will cost? The end of the public sector pay freeze, so

important to the future of the Labour Party, it is an massive

policy decision. Let me say at this stage, Theresa May, the Prime

Minister, this morning, on The Andrew Marr Show, did not have the

common decency, courtesy all respect to condone the fact that nurses, the

heroes of the NHS, have had a reduction of nearly 14% in their

wages since 2010 and are using food banks to feed themselves! Does that

not say everything that is wrong with today's society? So can you

tell me what it will cost, which is what my question was? What I will

say is everything the Labour Party pledges, everything that we come out

with, what we will roll out between now and the 8th of June, will be

fully costed, people will be very much aware of how much the costings

will be, where the funding will come from, when the manifesto is

published. What about doubling paternity leave, nu minimum wage,

four new bank holidays, any idea what it will

cost? These are exciting new proposals and of course today cost

money but we are the sixth richest economy in the world. It is about

redistribution of the wealth we create. We are seeing growth in the

economy, it is how we utilise the finances in the best way we possibly

can for a fairer society for the many and not the few. You just can't

tell me how much it will cost? That is why I will repeat again that you

need to be very patient. Do you know the cost yourself? You are the head

of the campaign, do you know the cost of these things yourself? I am

very much aware of how much the costings are likely to be, they have

been identified, they will be published in the manifesto. You

really do understand I would not be releasing today, live on your show,

any costings or predictions with regards the manifesto. Why not? You

have released the policy, why not the cost? Because there is a fine

detail and we will identify it to the general public in the manifesto.

We not only explain how much it will cost but we will explain where the

funding comes from. Be patient. Will some of the costs be met by

increasing taxes? I would think at this point in time there is not any

indication to increase basic taxes and again the taxes and spending of

the Labour Government with the proposals of the 20 point plan, the

issues we have got, housing, the NHS, crime, education will all be

identified with the costings in the publication. Can you tell us this

morning, we'll tax for most people rise or not to finance this? We in

the Labour Party are looking to a fair tax system which will be

clearly identified in the manifesto. Mr McDonnell also wants to ban all

0-hours contracts. Would that include those who actually like

those contracts? There are nearly 1 million, depending on which figured

you'd use, there are nearly 1 million people on zero-hours

contract and the vast proportion of those want to be able to live a

decent life, a secure life, they want to understand whether they will

be at work the next day, they're included hours... I understand a lot

of people don't like zero-hours contract and your proposal will

address that, but there are those, I saw one survey where 65% of people

on zero-hours contract like the flexibility it gives them. Will you

force them off zero-hours contract or if they like them will they

continue with them? We will discuss it with employee is to make sure

individuals in the workplace have the right to negotiate hours in that

workplace. Guaranteed hours is very, very important. Zero-hour contracts

are an instrument in which employers abuse and exploit mainly young

people, mainly female people in the workplace. We would be banning

zero-hour contract. But there are those, students for example, who

like them, would they be forced off zero-hour contracts in your

proposal? Our proposal would be banning zero-hour contract and

introducing contracts which have set hours in the workplace. You also say

no company will be able to bid for a public contract unless the boss

earns no more than 20 times the lowest paid, or the average wage,

I'm not quite sure which. What would happen if British Aerospace bids to

build more joint strike Fighters and the boss is paid more than 20 times?

I understand the point you raise but we have an obscene situation in this

country, Andrew, in which the bosses at the very top make an absolute

fortune... But what would happen then? Who would build joint strike

Fighters... The difference in wages between the top earners in the

country and the people in the factories, in the workshops,

producing the goods, is vast. I understand that is the reason you

want a ratio. What I am saying is, what happens if the ratio is

greater? Who gets the contract if not British Aerospace? Who else

builds the planes? We are going to introduce a wage rate CEO of one to

20. -- wage ratio. We want to close the gap between the people at the

very top and people who produce the goods. Let me try one more Time, who

would build the joint strike fighter? We would look at the issue

as it came along but the policy is clear... Can you name a single

defence contractor weather boss' salary is less than 20 times average

earnings? We are not reducing, we have rolled that out as part of this

fantastic plan to transform society to get rid of discrimination, to try

and bring together our communities. We will introduce a pay ratio of one

to 20. Fair enough, thank you very much.

It's a month after the triggering of Article 50, and EU leaders -

with the exception of Britain - met in Brussels this weekend

to agree their opening negotiating stance, to get the divorce

It is inside this psychedelic chamber where Britain's 'Grexit'

future will be decided over the next two years, but there is a vast gulf

in rhetoric coming from the UK and the EU. With parallel narratives

emerging for both sides. There is broad agreement that an orderly

withdrawal is in the interests of both sides. But Theresa May's

position is that the terms of our future trade deal should be

negotiated alongside the terms of our divorce. Meanwhile the EU says

the terms of the UK's exit must be decided before any discussion on a

future trade deal can begin. But don't forget that divorce

settlement. Don't remind me. In Brussels, many think written should

pay even more, while in the UK ministers said the divorce bill

should be capped at 3 billion. After you. Thank you.

For are you looking forward to it? Isn't that divorce bill a bit high?

Isn't this about punishing Britain? We are very united, you all seem so

surprised but it's a fact. How soon can we get a deal? We have to wait

for the elections. It was the decision of Mrs May. It took over an

hour for the leaders to make their entrances but once inside it's just

a few minutes to agree the negotiating guidelines. They set out

three main areas. The first phase of talks on the divorce settlement will

deal with the existing financial commitments to the EU, the Northern

Ireland border and the rights of EU citizens in the UK. They said a UK

trade agreement can be discussed when the first phase of talks

reaches significant progress. And that there must be unity in the

negotiations, that individual EU members won't negotiate separately

with the UK. They are quite good here at negotiating because they are

used to it. They set a maximum and then they have to recede a little

bit depending on what the other side is prepared to offer. I think there

is room for manoeuvre in some issues, but I don't think some of

the baseline things will change that much. For example I don't think the

European Union will concede on the rights of citizens who are already

in the UK. It will be very difficult for them to accept that they will

not be any exit bill, and the question of Northern Ireland is very

important as well, the hard order question. The baseline things are

not going to move that much, then you have room for manoeuvring

between. On security, defence and the fight against terrorism, the

guidelines said the EU stands ready to work together. And after lunch,

friendly signs from some EU leaders as they gave individual press

conferences. Paul and said the talks should open doors to new

opportunities and even German Chancellor Angela Merkel, who had

earlier said some in Britain were deluded about Brexit, softened her

tone saying there was no conspiracy against the UK. Unity was the

buzzword at this summit and for once everybody seemed to be sticking to

the script. That unity is not only amongst the 27 states, it's also

among the institutions so many of the divisions we have seen in the

past at European level do not exist. That is very important and it's not

be unity that is directed somehow against the UK because I think we

all want this to be an orderly process and part of that is that the

EU side is unified. So although there are no surprises here, what

took place in this room was a significant step towards the real

Brexit negotiations which will begin soon after the general election in

June, said to be the most complex the UK has faced in our lifetimes.

Isabel, Steve and Tom are still with me.

Isabel, doesn't the British media have to be a bit careful here? We

would never take at face value anything a British politician tells

us. We would question it, put it in context and wonder if they are

bluffing, but we seem to take at face value anything a European

politician says about these negotiations. You only have to look

at the front page of the Sunday Times today to see that. They quoted

at length Juncker, who didn't like the food at the reception and this

and that, and I think the mood is very optimistic. The key thing is

the EU trade Commissioner has said we will get a free trade deal and a

lot of people seem to be wilfully ignoring that incredibly big

concession. That is what will happen in their view. Everything that is

said at the moment needs a slight rerun over. They are all in

negotiating positions, plus we seem to be completely unaware that they

all have their own domestic constituencies as well. Angela

Merkel has an important election coming up in September,

Euroscepticism is quite different from Britain of course, but there's

a different kind of euro scepticism in Germany, she has got to deal with

that. Of course she has, which is why you are right, nothing should be

taken too seriously out of the mouths of British politicians or

European politicians until October this year. We have got to wait for

the French elections, then German elections, and if you look through

this you can see a way forward. There's no trade talks until pay up,

but what was actually written was no trade talks until we make

significant progress on the money. You can define significant progress

in a lot of ways but come December, fireworks over the summer, we all

get very excited about it, in these chairs I'm sure, come December

things will look a lot smoother. The German elections are at the end of

September but I've seen reports in German press, depending how it goes

it could take until Christmas before a new coalition government is put

together. The Brussels long-standing negotiating tactic of nothing is

agreed until everything is agreed, then I guess the British could say

we agree a certain sum of money if that's what it takes but that

depends on them, what good trade deal we get. If we don't get that,

the sum of money is off the table. In that sense, the two are going

parallel. However, I wouldn't entirely dismiss what people are

saying in their pre-election periods to their own electorates because

they have to some extent to deliver subsequently. Of course Angela

Merkel is campaigning and electioneering, who wouldn't, she

has a tough election to fight, but she is measured and thoughtful and

when she says things like some of the British are delusional, that is

unusually strong language for her. What was she referring to? I don't

know, it wasn't specific. Have the cake and eat it perhaps the

sequencing the British don't want. When they thought the British

government was going to effectively demand membership of the single

market, that's not going to happen now. Unless you sign up to the four

pillars, that's the cake and eat it proposition, which they are right in

saying Theresa May has made. But everybody has access, even with no

deal you have access. The other side of it is I think there will be a

united position from them. And so, as somebody pointed out in that

report, they are experienced, tough negotiators, so I don't think it

will be quite as easy as some think. I spoke to one of those who drew up

Article 50 and they said to me they deliberately put this two year

timetable in to make it impossible for anybody to think about leaving.

This is really tight, this negotiation. Easy, it isn't.

This coming Thursday, voters up and down the country

will be going to the polls in this year's local elections.

Over the past few weeks I've interviewed representatives

of the Conservative Party, Labour, the Liberal Democrats,

Today it's the turn of Plaid Cymru and the SNP.

A little earlier I spoke Alex Salmond, who until 2014

I started by asking him why Scots should vote SNP in local elections

when the Scottish Government had just cut central Government funding

It's actually a funding increase going into Scottish councils this

year, and if you look at the funding position for example between

Scottish councils and those in England, which are obviously

directly related through the Barnett formula, the funding in Scotland has

been incomparably better than that in England so there's a whole range

of the -- of reasons... What's happening south of the border

indicates the protection the Scottish Parliament has been able to

put in that helps vital services in Scotland. But there hasn't been a

funding increase, the block grant from Westminster to Edinburgh was

increased by 1.5% in real terms but the grant to councils was cut by

2.6%. It was going to be a cut of 330 million, the Greens got you to

reduce it to 170 million but it is still a cut of 2.6%. Your own

Aberdeenshire Council has had a cut to 391 million. You have cut the

money to councils. Yes, but councils have available to them more

resources this year, and as you say the budget increased that further

which is why we put forward an excellent local government budget in

Aberdeenshire and resisted a Tory attempts to knock ?3 million off...

You asked me about Aberdeenshire, and Aberdeenshire has put forward a

budget for investment expansion and resisted a Tory attempts to knock ?3

million off the education budget, and I'm very grateful you have given

me the opportunity to make that point. The Government in Edinburgh

has cut the money to Aberdeenshire by ?11 million. It is a cut. But

there is an investment budget in Aberdeenshire that has been made

available by the ability to increase the council tax by 2.5% after a

nine-year freeze in Scotland, and that has brought more resources into

local government and that's why the butchered in Aberdeenshire has been

an investment budget including protection of the education budget

in the face of a Tory and liberal attempt to cut bit. You have to

compare what is happening in Scotland and England, and there's no

doubt Scottish local authorities have been much better funded than

those in England over the last few years and that's been the ability of

the Scottish Government to protect the services at local level. A good

reason for voting SNP. If they have been so well funded, why after a

decade of SNP rule do one in five Scottish pupils leave primary school

functionally illiterate? You have got to take these things... Nicola

Sturgeon has made it a top priority to address these challenges but

let's take another statistic. 93% of Scottish kids are now emerging from

school to positive destinations, that means to further education,

apprenticeships or work. Why are one in five functionally illiterate? You

argue one statistic, I'm arguing Scottish education is putting in

some substantially good performances like the 93% going on to positive

destinations. You can't have a failing education system if you have

got that 93%, and incidentally a record low youth unemployment in

Scotland without the second lowest unemployment rate in Europe. These

pupils are being prepared by the Scottish education system. Let's

take the figures in the round on education. It's so important. Under

your watch, under your government, the Scottish schools in the most

important global comparison have fallen from tenth to 19th in

science, and 11 to 24th in maths, that is a record of decline and

failure. That is by the OECD and first questions about that, but the

OECD has also described Scotland is one of the best educated societies

in the world. That was from the school system in previous years gone

by. For those who are currently in Scottish schools, you have fallen

from 11th to 24th in mathematics. The OECD was commenting on

introduction of the new curriculum for excellence in which they have

given a resounding thumbs up to it, and that's the same source as the

rankings which you are comparing. Nicola Sturgeon has said there are

challenges on Scottish education, particularly the access through the

education system and the attainment gap but don't tell me it's failing

when 55% of our pupils have gone on to higher education. That's one of

the most impressive figures in the world. Why have you cut 4000

teachers? The pupil numbers in Scotland have been falling over

recent years as well and now of course we are increasing the number

of people going through teachers training so we can make sure that

number increases, but listen, the Scottish Government and Scottish

Parliament, as you very well know, are subject to real terms spending

cuts over the last few years and all public services have been under

pressure. The main reason in terms of teacher numbers has been an

attempt on the Scottish Government to protect the teacher pupil ratio,

and that will now be enhanced by a further taker -- intake. You

promised you would reduce primary class sizes to 18 and instead they

are now 23.5 and rising. You broke that promise. You didn't mention

where we started from. We have kept the teacher pupil ratio very solid

in Scotland and that's been against a range of public expenditure cuts

but the new intake of teachers into the new teacher training in Scotland

I think will enhance the system. You have spent in the pasty in

Hollywood 43 hours on Government time debating independence. How many

hours have you debated education on Government time? I don't have that

they get a hand... The answer is zero, you have spent zero-hours

debating education on Government time. Isn't it time the SNP got back

to concentrating on the day job? Andrew, as you very well know Nicola

Sturgeon has identified a key priority, closing the attainment gap

in Scottish education. That is exactly what she has done. Let me

answer the question, it is difficult to be in a remote location, if you

talk before I answer the question then the view was will not be able

to listen. I let you answer that without saying a word. Is this

general election about independence, as you say it is, or not about

independence, as Mrs Sturgeon says it is? No, I have said exactly the

same as Nicola Sturgeon on that. The issue what independence will be

decided in a national referendum of the Scottish people. The mandate for

that referendum was gained in last year's Scottish elections. What this

election is about is backing the right of the Scottish parliament to

exercise that mandate and also providing real opposition to this

Tory Government and allowing the Scottish Parliament to reverse

austerity and some of the public expenditure cutbacks you have been

talking about, that is what this is about, backing our Scottish

Parliament. Alex Salmond, speaking

to me earlier. I'm now joined by the leader

of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood. You accuse the Government of wanting

an extreme Brexit, those are your words. What is the difference

between hard Brexit and extreme Brexit? My concern is the way in

which we leave the European Union could be very damaging to Wales if,

for example, there are tariffs introduced then that would have a

real impact in terms of Welsh jobs, and I want to make sure that we have

a Brexit that doesn't cause the damage to Wales that could be

caused. But what is the difference between extreme and hard? Anything

that puts Welsh jobs at risk is either extreme or hard and

unacceptable to Plaid Cymru, and we will do what we can to protect those

jobs. You want Wales to remain a member of the single market even if

the UK isn't, which would mean Wales having to accept the free movement

of people, still being under the jurisdiction of the European Court,

and you also want to stay in the customs union which means you could

not do your own free trade deals. What is the difference between that

and being a member of the European Union? We would be like Norway,

outside the European Union and inside the single market. The key

question is the issue of jobs and the ability to continue to trade.

Wales exports, we are the biggest exporter in the whole of the UK, so

there are many jobs reliant upon those goods being able to be sold to

the single market. Is it central to the UK? Out of the four countries

that make up the UK... Proportionally, yes. If you remain

in the single market, it is hard to see how Wales could stay in the

single market if the UK -- when the rest of the UK was not, you cite

Norway, that has free movement, it has to be said, it effectively have

to accept the jurisdiction of the European Court, it is not in the

customs union so it can do some of its own free trade deals, but the

Welsh people voted to leave. We have to accept the principle of free

movement if there is not going to be a hard border between the north and

south of Ireland. There is going to be free movement within Ireland and

therefore freedom of movement, as we said in the referendum campaign,

would be very, very difficult to rule out. You lost that campaign, as

you know, Wales voted to leave, 17 Council areas voted to leave, only

five voted to remain. Doesn't it explain why your party is going

nowhere? A majority in Wales voted to leave but you effectively want to

support that and de facto remain in the EU? I don't accept that, we

accepted the result but Plaid Cymru now is about defending Wales. There

are so many risks facing our people from the jobs perspective, the

privatisation perspective, the cuts perspective, and from the fact that

the Tories would like to grab power was back from our National Assembly,

so the key point... If you look at the Wales bill that went through

recently, the list of reserved powers there suggests there are some

powers currently within the Welsh Assembly jurisdiction that would be

dragged back. Which power was will Westminster take back? They could

take powers back over the NHS, for example. There is no indication they

want to do that. The Tories have attacked the Welsh NHS. That is my

point! Quite viciously. If they increase their mandate, I wouldn't

put it past them to try to take power was back over the NHS and then

of course we risk our NHS being privatised though this election is

all about defending Wales, protecting Welsh people from further

privatisation and cuts and a power grab from the Tories. Why is there

never a breakthrough for your party, Plaid Cymru? Labour dominated in

Wales for years, the Tories do quite well, Ukip had a surge for a while,

it looks like the Tories will have another surge, never you, always the

bridesmaid, never the bride. Wait until Thursday and I think you will

see that in many parts of Wales we will increase our representation at

a local council level. In the Rhondda, where I am assembly member,

we are looking to increase our representation... You are only 13%

in the polls will stop which is half of even the Tories in Wales! If you

don't breakthrough in the selection, if the real problem is going

nowhere, do you think you will pack it in? Robert Green not, I have a

job to do, a vision of Wales which is about building up our nation and

standing on our own two feet and my job is not done yet. Thank you for

being with us as part of your job, we will see how it goes on Thursday.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.

Hello, I'm Lucie Fisher, coming up on the Sunday Politics

Politicians standing in Thursday's local elections face

I'd like to know what you're going to do about social care.

And for the next 20 minutes, I'm joined by four candidates hoping

to be elected to Devon County Council.

The Conservative group leader and current leader

of the council John Hart, if his party loses more than seven

Lib Dem leader Alan Connett, one of ten Liberal Democrats.

Ukip group leader Robin Julian, currently one of four

And Labour's Rob Hannaford, the only one of Labour's seven Devon

county councillors not retiring at these elections.

OK. Rob, if we start with you before we go to questions. Let's get a

sense of what you think is the most important issue of this election. I

think it's the chronic underfunding of local government. Local

government have taken the brunt of austerity measures that haven't

worked. We've got to readdress that. Front line services are being cut

and reduced and we can't go forward in this way anymore. John, that

makes it difficult for you, doesn't it? You've got a Tory government is

making these cards and you as a Tory have got to put them forward? In

2009 when I took it control of this council I said the country had been

spending money it hadn't got for ten years. Local government was going to

get hurt. We've restructured and reorganised Devon County Council.

We've reduced spending by 267 million pounds. It has meant a 5%

hike, hasn't it? But the biggest problem in local government in my

view is the care cost. Social care. Looking after the old. The

vulnerable. That's very much what is going to be a very big Bill. A big

Bill for local government and for Devon. As a Lib Dem would you agree

that social care and is a key issue? It is at the top. As well as school

budget, fixing roads, these are the things people talk about today in,

day out. Robin, Ukip, are you hearing the same thing? Certainly.

We've had underfunding. We started We've had underfunding. We started

at a low ebb before cuts came in. The biggest problem we've got is

hospitals and community hospitals. And part holds. It is a nightmare.

it is panicking the people in our it is panicking the people in

We will come back to these issues. We will come back to these issues.

But first of all, Thursday's local elections are taking place in all

four counties and our reporters have been out listening to the voters.

These local elections across our four counties are your chance to

have your say about the issues that matter to you. Not least here in

Cornwall. Closing hospitals. Hospitals. Get some carers, get them

fully trained and pay them what they deserve. Funding for schools. Stop

building on every scrap of land available. Leave space for nature.

What about Devon? Exeter, here we come. It's probably best not to take

a megaphone in here. With cuts in funding the county council has had

to make savings. One way to do that to make savings. One way to do that

is give the responsibility of charities. We've been able to be

more flexible. We've had friends we wouldn't have been able to access.

You must consider building more You must consider building more

hospitals before building more houses. Pot holes another talking

point but another way the county council is saving money is by asking

volunteers to fail in small roles like this one. The council do the

big holes. We do them before they get big. It's the old story, a

stitch in time, saves nine. Over to you in Dorset. This is Dorset's

traditional Tory heartland. The traditional Tory heartland. The

Conservatives are the largest voice in local democracy. Austerity

budgets have seen the library service paid to the bone, and the

rural bus network decimated. But the letters dominate the backdrop to

this election. Elegy are. Local government reorganisation. The plans

to merge into unitary authorities may not seem much to shout about,

but it's a big issue here. There are too many councils. What matters to

you locally? Funding for schools. If plans for the new structure get

approval by the government it will mean new elections in two years'

time. People here will have to go to the polls all over again. So, what

about Somerset? People have been making their voices heard on key

issues be a children's services, rated inadequate, superfast

broadband or improvements to key roads in Somerset. The next voice we

hear really will be yours, at the ballot box next week.

So let's kick off the debate between these Devon councillors,

with our first question from a voter...

Hello, I'd like to know what you're going to do about social care. We

have a friend who was having trouble with her hip, and she's having great

difficulty getting any social care to give her a hand. OK, so as

predicted, one of our first questions about social care. John,

we come to you as leader of the council. What will you do about

this? We've already reorganising lot of these social care. We've brought

in islet work in Exeter, integrated care. We've got to work close with

our partners in health and a voluntary sector in order to improve

the opportunity for people. We put ?19 million into the budget this

year. By putting up council tax. By putting up council tax we raised ?10

million. We put ?19 million into the budget. Rob, is this enough? I think

we've done some good work. In terms of paying carers, for example, but

as John has said this was not enough. We should have had more

money to make this workable. What would you have done though? You

raise council tax to the maximum allowed to cope with social care,

why should people vote Labour? I supported the rising council tax to

support social care because that goes some way to help people. We

need to readdress this balance between central and local government

where they expect us to do a large number of services without adequate

funding. This is a pure example of this. We are not having a realistic

conversation in terms of integrated health and social care. The other

big issue is getting the carers to see as a valid profession. Better

training, seeing it as a vocation. Better paid? Better pay is also part

of it. But bad money is got to come from somewhere. What is more

important banking for people in their own homes. Allen, do you agree

with Rob? For us this is about the fact that people are frightened of

getting old. They are frightened of becoming unwell. Good work is

happening but there is an issue about recruiting, keeping and caring

staff. Carers do some incredibly personal tasks. And the issue is

about raising money. But we need and nationally, to fix a broken system.

In Devon I'd like to see a public enquiry bringing health and social

get-together. There is an epidemic of loneliness and we are not finding

a solution. Do you think John has a fair point, money is tight and be

doing the best they can? No. There is a lot of waste. More money could

be directed towards caring. The county are spending a lot of money,

some of which could be redirected. John, you are spending money that

could be redirected to social care? Allen is a spin doctor in the county

council. He talks about ?2.8 million, ?2 million is payment. We

have members of staff. We spent ?500,000 on communications which we

have to do for all sorts of things including getting more care workers.

So you refer to that suggestion? I referred to the suggestion that

there is a waste. I will say that we can, and will, we go through this

all the time, but the point is that ?2.8 million. I know I've got to

take ?30 million over 2018 budget. We will be reviewing everything we

spend money on. Robin, social care, is John making sense to you? We are

starting from a low ebb before we had these cuts. Eight years. John

has just said that in 2018 another ?30 million. You are looking at ?300

million being cut out of this county. We should not be giving more

money to central government. We should be asking them to leave

the money where it is so we can work on it.

I go round on the streets and the elderly are so worried that they

might lose their homes. might lose their homes.

Why should they vote Ukip? We are the local people in the party. Local

issues. That's what I've been fighting. It's

the United Kingdom Independence the United Kingdom Independence

party. Why would they vote you? We are independent of Ukip. I am an

independent person looking at local issues and working jolly hard. We've

hospital. Also with other parties hospital. Also with other parties

we've been fighting to keep out at hospital. It's vital we are...

John, can you do anything about the closure of cottage hospitals?

It's not the responsibility of local government. We supported a unanimous

vote at the council: two tell the EJB to look at what they are doing.

They need to put in place whatever they want to do before they start

It is time for a second question It is time for a second question

from the voters. We have a question from Ivybridge this time. What will

you do about the housing situation for young working families. We

managed to get onto the housing market but it was a struggle. It's a

bigger struggle for a lot of young families in Devon.

Alan, I know that Devon County Council doesn't have authority

over planning applications, but you do think about housing numbers. Is

this something that should be in your control? Should there be a

regional to make sure Devon County Council does have influence over

housing? Ie personally favour a change in the way local government

is set up. We have to deal with the reality now. If we are going to

create jobs for people, we need to create the housing that is available

and local. Here is the issue. So many of our council set out to

developments, 20, 25, 30%, but trade developments, 20, 25, 30%, but trade

it's not viable. I think the role it's not viable. I think the role

the county can play is to take an overview and look at the land it's

got. The buildings it got to make that available. Although John says

there is no waste, there is waste at County Hall, believe me. I've seen

it. I know it. We need to do a better job. All of this plays into a

much more positive and vibrant approach will get in Devon back on

its feet. John, what are you going to do about this? We are no longer

responsible for housing numbers as we used to be. Is that a shame?

Should you have responsibility? We put the housing into the devolution

bid. The issue we have at the moment is money, price, Carr house, land.

If the land is cheap, the price of how should become cheaper. It

doesn't work like that. doesn't work like that.

We have a cohort of developers who are building for the private sector.

There is a small demand for the public sector, we need more money

into the public sector... I have to move on, because, Rob, is

this something you would agree with? The devolution bid to be looking at

bringing housing into the remit of the county council?

I would be happy to do anything that would alleviate the housing crisis.

It's the biggest domestic political issue we've got and it's a scandal

that the government is not doing something about it.

We need a mass building programme. A lot of families we spoke to said

that affordable isn't affordable. Yes, affordable does not mean

affordable. We need social houses, better regulation and thousands of

people in Devon having secure tenancies and poor conditions. This

needs to be at the top of the agenda both locally and centrally.

Briefly, are you happy with the progress of the devolution bid, the

idea of more powerful unitary authority? We are not moving in

Devon to a unitary authority. What we are doing is bespoke bits of work

on issues such as transport, housing growth and economic growth. You

wouldn't like it to be a unitary authority? I don't support that. I

didn't last time and wouldn't this time. The issue is not the

structures, it's the funding coming into local government so that we can

do the job we need to do. Robin, is this fast enough for you? I feel

that when you get property perspective is going in for housing

they say they will build X amount of thousands of homes, 500 homes, then

they start backtracking. They backtrack. And in the end there's

very little social housing. I would like to see council houses back.

I think we should reverse the whole thing. Is that something that the

county council or to be able to... They should be looking at it. We

really should be starting to demand, people can't afford it.

They are still at home at 45. It's ridiculous. John, something that you

could deal with? There needs to be more involvement in social housing,

more pressure to find social housing. Low-cost housing is not low

cost, and it is a problem. It's a problem in a low-wage authority led

Devon. We have more questions. Third, final question. My concern is

pot holes. I got my car damaged, it they did pay for me to get it fixed

but I've noticed there are pot holes around on the road and they want to

know when this is going to be resolved?

Robin, you mentioned this at the start of the programme. What are you

won't do about pot holes? I'd like to see more money invested. Not have

the cut central government are imposing so we would have more

money. We are eight point 5000 miles of road, we are billions of pounds

short looking after the roads. People's cars are getting damaged.

Half ?1 million of the people that actually reported it, and even more

on doorstep to haven't even bothered.

Alan, is this ridiculous? People are claiming to mend their cars and Rob

Hannaford was being filled back in. Increasingly people have their cars

damaged. But even when the pot holes are fixed, it is shoddy. So what is

the solution? This comes down to the fact that the Conservatives have

taken a ride off the ball. We would have put more money into pot holes.

But where is the money coming from? John is quite right the council have

had to deal with a budget. But there is waste. I will show you an

example. This envelope sent to me by county Hall yesterday.

First class. This envelope with another envelope inside and only

five bits of paper for an event in May.

This is a simple one or ?2, but there are thousands going out at

County Hall which wasted. We can put about money where it is really

needed. John, if you stopped sending out

things like this mail you could fix the pot holes. We put our own money

into the pot holes. We got ?3.1 million from the government fought

pot holes. And patching. That's on top of the standard budget. It's

still not enough. I was going to ask Rob here is it enough and is

volunteer is the answer? I'm not sure that volunteers are the answer.

At a time of our study the best thing any government can do is

invest in infrastructure such as roads and pavements. The issue we

also have here is the directive which covers these issues is in

competition with the people side of it which is demand led. Vulnerable

children and elderly people are always competing against pot holes.

You will put money in? From where? Pot holes is the number-1 issue in

our postbag but that doesn't mean we can't child protection issues. We

should have managers inspecting these holes when they finished and

they should have look at them. That would cost money. We have two move

on. It's not being done properly! There are a full list of candidates

on the elections on Council websites.

In Devon they include representatives of the East Devon

Independent Alliance, the Liberal Party, 18

Independents and 43 candidates representing the Green Party.

party because they will hold the party because they will hold the

Tories to account on the worst excesses of austerity. People quite

often say that we can't afford these policies. But often there is a

question of priorities. What Green councillors will do is not be afraid

to ask the awkward questions and challenge the Tories on their

priorities. Now our regular round-up

of the political week Devon's Conservative MPs write to

the PM asking her to put more money into the county's schools in the

manifesto. Meanwhile Devon's Lib Dem councillors called for a local

public enquiry into the state of the NHS. Callers submits its bid to

become the UK's first spaceport. It happens in other countries, in

America and Russia. We are confident that it could happen right year. Why

the government has asked to save the county's post opposites. Can I ask

the Minister to take account of rural post office services in places

like Cornwall to make sure people get the they want. And the Seagull

menace to bring new twist this week as one bird bit off more than he

could chew in stealing some false teeth in Torquay. All the fun things

happening Torquay! School funding, Rob, if I come to you first. Devon's

served MPs have asked the PM to put more money for the county's schools

in the manifesto, is that fair? I think the question that needs to be

asked is at the moment, all of the region's MPs are conservatives.

Apart from one. If we lose that and more are elected naturally the

attraction to get fit funding could be last in a huge majority.

In terms of school funding the consulting needs to stop. We know

our schools are dreadfully underfunded.

We need action. Alan, what do you make of the politics? The politics

is quite cynical. The government has been underfunded for years. Add to

that the Conservatives putting a further 2.2 million in. They have a

big down on education in Devon and we need to put that right. John,

this is cynical of the Tories, can they say we need more funding? I was

one of the founders of the group complaining about underfunding.

Devon did get ?160 million extra for schools. I'm delighted BMPs are

fighting with us this time instead of sitting on the fans.

OK. Thank you all very much, sorry Robin to cut you off there.

That's the Sunday Politics in the South West.

Now back to Andrew with the Week Ahead.

we will take the mandate that we want. To all three of you, thank

you. Andrew, back to you. So, how will Thursday's local

election results affect Who's winning the

election ground war? And as he celebrates 100

days in the White House, We have the local elections, Metro

elections in Liverpool, greater Birmingham, West Midlands, how will

they play into the general election? Significantly, it is very unusual.

People keep comparing this with the election in 83, not! Margaret

Thatcher was nervous and to wait until after the local elections to

call the election to see the result. We are getting these result in the

middle of an election campaign so it will be important, whoever does

badly will suffer a dent in confidence in terms of how they

approach the election and we are also going to have mayoral figures

as a reminder of another big difference with the 80s that however

big, say, the Conservatives win in Westminster, there are now sectors

of power in other parts of the United Kingdom which were not there

in the 80s. One of the reasons niches that are rated in 83 was

memories were still alive in political circles of 1970, Wilson

saw the local election results and thought, I can win, he was told he

would win by the Economist magazine, who had done the analysis, and of

course he lost, so that is why she waited, Mrs May does not need to

wait for that at all now, and on the Metro elections, the one she will be

looking at is the West Midlands, that is the one that is a

competition. I think she can really lose on Thursday in the local

elections, governing parties are supposed to take effect again,

losing lots of council seats. She is projected to put on 100 or so seats,

Labour projected to lose around 200, the first time the main opposition

party has shed seats since something like 83 so clearly the local

elections give Mrs May great momentum going into the general

election campaign but there is a downside in that, which is what we

have already heard fighting about this morning, if it looks like it is

going too well for the Tories, it says to voters, why bother turning

up? Sushi comes up with totally unbelievable sound bites this

morning that this is the most important general election in her

lifetime. Really?! For her it is! It always is until the next one! I

wonder if voter turnout is a problem? Tory voters are more likely

to vote than Labour voters. If there is a sense that it is all over bar

the shouting, the overall turnout will be low that Tory voters are

still likely to turn out more than Labour voters so she would still win

some. I don't think she needs to be too worried, I think there will be a

significantly low turnout, even I am finding it hard to be that excited

about this general election. Really, the policies, we have spent a lot of

time talking about them today and we have to examine them, but all this

is about is, do you want Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn in Number Ten?

Those are the only question is, apart from possibly how strong do

you feel about Brexit, that will be on the voters' minds. You may say

that but I will not be put off from going through a list of policies

that we have already had in the last 24 hours. On the Conservatives, more

powers to stop company bosses under pensions, of course Philip Green was

in mind there. Labour has come up with quite a few policies, actually,

give all work of equal rights, whether part-time or full-time,

temporary or permanent. Ukip, scrap VAT or takeaway -- on takeaway food

and end the BBC licence fee. The Liberal Democrats have come out

posed to the runway at Heathrow. I thought I knew that already? Will

any of these policies make a difference? They are all nice handy

things that people quite liked but probably not, is the answer. They

are an awful way away from polling day now for people to remember and

latch onto. I don't think you make your mind up on small issues like

Heathrow, unless you live in Richmond-upon-Thames, maybe, but the

problem Labour have got with unfailing a lot of these retail type

policies which, in themselves, are very popular, is no one will listen

to them until they get over the leadership credibility issue. Jeremy

Corbyn could the world on a stick, but if no one believes he can

deliver it then he will not be listened to and he has not done much

apart from a speech yesterday in which is claim to fame was getting

arrested, I don't see how that would work for him getting to Number Ten.

They are not making progress on it. Labour has rolled out a number of

policies which, taken individually, would have certain traction in

normal times, quite interesting ideas, this sense of unfairness, a

feeling that ordinary workers have not done well out of the recovery,

those who caused the crash have, 20 points, I went through some of them

earlier, putting aside they are not costed, we are assured they will be.

The problem I suggest is not the costing but the cut through? Every

election has a context which is determined by opinion polls, however

sceptical we are these days, and if one party is way ahead it is

difficult for the other party to appear relevant, because if people

assume they are not going to win, even some of its own MPs are saying,

we are not going to win this, so you can vote for us, it is very hard to

get attention and relevance. Where I think all the parties are bad with

their current leaders is framing arguments, so those policies you

have highlighted makes sense. The best leaders are brilliant framers

of an argument and neither Theresa Maynor Jeremy Corbyn R. They have

been campaigning, their manifestos are not out yet, both sides have

been telling us we have to wait for costings, but it has not stopped

them campaigning. Let's remind you of where they have been and what

they have been doing so far. Let's start with Jeremy Corbyn, his

first official visit was in the ultra-marginal Conservative seat of

Croydon Central where the MP Gavin Barwell has a lead of just 165. That

is not the only Conservative seat he has visited, along the way he popped

in on Bristol North West, a Conservative majority of nearly

5000. The Tory seat of Cardiff North, a lead of just over 2000,

Warrington South, just over 2700, and Crewe and Nantwich, Tory

majority of three and a half thousand. Yesterday he visited

Bethnal greed and Bob, a Labour lead of 20 4000. Theresa May kicked off

her campaign in Bolton, Labour majority of over 4000. On her way

round the UK she had a comfy stop in her own maidenhead seat, where she

is defending a majority of nearly 30,000, before travelling to other

Labour marginals including Dudley North, a Labour lead of 4000.

Bridgend, a lead of just under 2004 Labour, before becoming ambitious

and visiting shadow minister Richard Bergen's Leeds East seat, which he

won by over 12,500 votes. Yesterday she went north of the border to

Aberdeenshire, where amongst other places she visited the SNP seat of

West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine, where the Tories would have to gain

over 7000 votes to unseat the NP. What do you make of it all so far?

It is remarkable she is doing these visits in Scotland. Past but even

five years and the idea of a Tory Prime Minister going round Scotland

would be utterly counter-productive, and actually they are ambitious for

Scotland now under with Davidson, a prospect of multiple seats, and that

would be a real genuine shift in Scottish politics, the likes of

which we have not seen for 15 or 20 years. If she gets that, that helps

towards 100 seats, because if she wins ten in Scotland, it is

effectively 20, the SNP lose ten, she gains ten, she wants to do that

in the Midlands with Labour, and the North. To get the 100 majority,

other than Scotland, she has to win Labour seats, that is all that is

there. And clearly she has been told, it is obvious, that she has a

chance of doing so, otherwise you don't go to these parts of the

country in the first few days of the campaign. All logic points to her

being able to pull it off as well. The opinion polls, the state of the

Labour Party. The only qualification I have in this is that politics is

so wild and free Braille at the moment, it doesn't feel like

landslide to rain. That is true, it doesn't. It is early days, we

haven't yet had the manifestos, the campaign is yet to gather momentum.

It doesn't feel like landslide territory. I disagree, look at every

single poll, the Tory lead is 10% in Wales, you can see her picking up 20

seat there. Put this together, I am told by the way she is going into

traditional Labour heartland again tomorrow, the key is the Ukip vote.

That will implode... Crumble towards Tories? If she can hoover that up

and retain the Tory vote, she will have a majority of 150.

I cannot let you go without reminding you that it is Donald

Trump's 100 days. He's not making a lot of it now, this is what he said

last night. We are just beginning in our fight

to make America great again. Now, before we talk about my first

100 days, which has been very exciting and very productive,

let's rate the media's 100 days. Because, as you know,

they are a disgrace. There you go, still bashing the

media, that was at a rally in Virginia, the 100 days was last

night. He seems happier campaigning than running the country. You each

have 20 seconds to give me your board on the first 100 days.

Remarkable, he will not stop slagging off the media but America

first has not meant America first in terms of national policy, he has

reneges on what he said about Nato being obsolete. He is moving from

the old right to the centre because that is where you get things done,

he is a pragmatist, also is about's friend Nigel Parrott is no longer

welcome, we read this morning! Allegedly! He loves campaigning but

finds governing much more difficult. Who would have thought being

president of the United States was a difficult job?! He loves rallies but

being president and politics is a very difficult thing indeed. Thank

you, there we go, Mr Trump's 100 days, we will see what the next 100

brings. The Daily Politics is back

on BBC Two after the bank holiday on Tuesday at midday,

with all the latest And I'll be back here

on BBC One next Sunday Remember - if it's Sunday,

it's the Sunday Politics.