07/05/2017 Sunday Politics South West

It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

The local election results made grim reading for Labour.

With just a month to go until the general election,

will promising to rule out tax rises for all but the well off help

The Conservatives have their own announcement on mental health,

as they strain every sinew to insist they don't think they've got

But is there still really all to play for?

And tonight we will find out who is the next

President of France - Emmanuel Macron or Marine Le Pen -

In the South West: ended with a hack attack

We may be in a general election campaign, but that's not

stopping a Tory revolt against the Government's plan

potential impact in marginals next month. If Ukip support continues to

evaporate... And joining me for all of that,

three journalists ready to analyse the week's politics

with all the forensic focus of Diane Abbott

preparing for an interview, and all the relaxed,

slogan-free banter of Theresa May It's Janan Ganesh, Isabel Oakeshott

and Steve Richards. So, the Conservatives are promising,

if re-elected, to change mental health laws in England and Wales

to tackle discrimination, and they're promising 10,000 more

staff working in NHS mental health treatment in England by 2020 -

although how that's to be Here's Health Secretary

Jeremy Hunt speaking There is a lot of new

money going into it. In January, we said we were going

to put an extra ?1 billion Does this come from other parts

of the NHS, or is it No, it is new money

going into the NHS It's not just of course money,

it's having the people who deliver these jobs,

which is why we need Well, we're joined now from Norwich

by the Liberal Democrat health This weekend, they've launched

their own health announcement, promising a 1% rise on every income

tax band to fund the NHS. Do you welcome the Conservatives

putting mental health onto the campaign agenda in the way that they

have? I welcome it being on the campaign agenda but I do fear that

the announcement is built on thin air. You raised the issue at the

start about the 10,000 extra staff, and questions surrounding how it

would be paid for. There is no additional money on what they have

already announced for the NHS. We know it falls massively short on the

expectation of the funding gap which, by 2020, is likely to be

about 30 billion. That is not disputed now. Anyone outside of the

government, wherever you are on the political spectrum, knows the money

going in is simply not enough. So, rather like the claim that they

would add 5000 GPs to the workforce by 2020, that is not on target.

Latest figures show a fall in the number of GPs. They make these

claims, but I'm afraid they are without substance, unless they are

prepared to put money behind it. Your party's solution to the money

problem is to put a 1% percentage point on all of the bands of income

tax to raise more money 20-45. Is that unfair? Most pensioners who

consume 40% of NHS spending, but over 65s only pay about 20% of

income tax. Are you penalising the younger generations for the health

care of an older generation? It is the first step in what we are

describing as a 5-point recovery plan for the NHS and care system.

So, for what is available to us now, it seems to be the fairest way of

bringing in extra resources, income tax is progressive, and is based on

your ability to pay for your average British worker. It would be ?3 per

week which is the cost of less than two cups of coffee per week. In the

longer run, we say that by the end of the next Parliament, we would be

able to introduce a dedicated NHS and care tax. Based, probably,

around a reformed national insurance system, so it becomes a dedicated

NHS and care tax. Interestingly, the former permanent secretary of the

Treasury, Nick MacPherson, said clearly that this idea merits

further consideration which is the first time anyone for the Treasury

has bought into the idea of this. Let me ask you this. You say it is a

small amount of tax that people on average incomes will have to pay

extra. We are talking about people who have seen no real increases to

their income since 2007. They have been struggling to stand still in

terms of their own pay, but you are going to add to their tax, and as I

said earlier, most of the health care money will then go to

pensioners whose incomes have risen by 15%. I'm interested in the

fairness of this redistribution? Bearing in mind first of all,

Andrew, that the raising of the tax threshold that the Liberal Democrats

pushed through in the coalition increased the effective pay in your

pocket for basic rate taxpayers by about ?1000. We are talking about a

tiny fraction of that. I suppose that you do have to ask, all of us

in this country need to ask ourselves this question... Are we

prepared to pay, in terms of the average worker, about ?3 extra per

week to give us a guarantee that when our loved ones need that care,

in their hour of need, perhaps suspected cancer, that care will be

available for them? I have heard two cases recently brought my attention.

An elderly couple, the wife has a very bad hip. They could not allow

the weight to continue. She was told that she would need to wait 26

weeks, she was in acute pain. They then deduct paying ?20,000 for

private treatment to circumvent waiting time. They hated doing it,

because they did not want to jump the queue. But that is what is

increasingly happening. Sorry to interrupt, Norman Lamb comedy make

very good points but we are short on time today. One final question, it

looks like you might have the chance to do any of this, I'm told the best

you can hope to do internally is to double the number of seats you have,

which would only take you to 18. Do you think that promising to raise

people's income tax, even those on average earnings, is a vote winner?

I think the people in this country are crying out for politicians to be

straight and tenet as it is. At the moment we heading towards a

Conservative landslide... -- tell it as it is. But do we want a 1-party

state? We are electing a government not only to deal with the crucial

Brexit negotiations, but oversee the stewardship of the NHS and funding

of our schools, all of these critical issues. We need an

effective opposition and with the Labour Party having taken itself off

stage, the Liberal Democrats need to provide an effective opposition.

Norman Lamb, thank you for joining us this morning. Thank you.

Labour and Tories are anxious to stress the general election

result is not a foregone conclusion, whatever the polls say.

Order you just heard Norman Lamb say there that he thought the

Conservatives were heading for a landslide...

But did Thursday's dramatic set of local election results

in England, Scotland and Wales give us a better idea of how the country

Here's Emma Vardy with a behind-the-scenes look at how

Good morning, it's seven o'clock on Friday, May 5th...

The dawn of another results day. Anticipation hung in the air.

Early results from the local elections in England suggest

there's been a substantial swing from Labour to the Conservatives.

While the pros did their thing, I needed breakfast.

Don't tell anyone, but I'm going to pinch a sausage.

The overnight counts had delivered successes for the Tories.

But with most councils only getting started,

there was plenty of action still to come.

It's not quite the night of Labour's nightmares.

There's enough mixed news in Wales, for example -

looks like they're about to hold Cardiff - that they'll try and put

But in really simple terms, four weeks from a general election,

the Tories are going forward and Labour are going backwards.

How does it compare being in here to doing the telly?

Huw, how do you prepare yourself for a long day of results, then?

We're not even on air yet, as you can see, and already

in Tory HQ this morning, there's a kind of, "Oh,

I'm scared this will make people think the election's just

I think leave it like that - perfect.

I want the Laura look. This is really good, isn't it?

Usually, we're in here for the Daily Politics.

But it's been transformed for the Election Results programme.

But hours went by without Ukip winning a single seat.

The joke going around Lincolnshire County Council today

from the Conservatives is that the Tories have eaten

We will rebrand and come back strong.

Morale, I think, is inevitably going to take a bit of a tumble.

Particularly if Theresa May starts backsliding on Brexit.

And then I think we will be totally reinvigorated.

There are a lot of good people in Ukip and I wouldn't

want to say anything unkind, but we all know it's over.

Ukip press officer. Difficult job.

Ukip weren't the only ones putting a brave face on it.

Labour were experiencing their own disaster day too,

losing hundreds of seats and seven councils.

If the result is what these results appear to indicate,

Can we have a quick word for the Sunday Politics?

A quick question for Sunday Politics - how are you feeling?

Downhearted or fired up for June? Fired up, absolutely fired up.

He's fired up. We're going to go out there...

We cannot go on with another five years of this.

How's it been for you today? Tiring.

It always is, but I love elections, I really enjoy them.

Yes, you know, obviously we're disappointed at some of the results,

it's been a mixed bag, but some opinion polls

and commentators predicted we'd be wiped out - we haven't.

As for the Lib Dems, not the resurgence they hoped for,

After a dead heat in Northumberland, the control of a whole council came

The section of England in which we had elections yesterday

was the section of England that was most likely to vote Leave.

When you go to sleep at night, do you just have election results

The answer is if that's still happening, I don't get to sleep.

There we go. Maybe practice some yoga...

Thank you very much but I have one here.

With the introduction of six regional mayors,

Labour's Andy Burnham became Mr Manchester.

But by the time Corbyn came to celebrate, the new mayor

We want you to stay for a second because I've got some

I used to present news, as you probably know.

I used to present BBC Breakfast in the morning.

The SNP had notable successes, ending 40 years of Labour

What did you prefer - presenting or politics?

And it certainly had been a hard day at the office for some.

Ukip's foothold in local government was all but wiped out,

leaving the Conservatives with their best local

So another election results day draws to a close.

But don't worry, we'll be doing it all again in five weeks' time.

For now, though, that's your lot. Off you go.

Now let's look at some of Thursday's results in a little more detail,

and what they might mean for the wider fortunes

In England, there were elections for 34 councils.

The Conservatives took control of ten of them,

gaining over 300 seats, while Labour sustained

While the Lib Dems lost 28 seats, Ukip came close to extinction,

and can now boast of only one councillor in the whole of England.

In Scotland, the big story was Labour losing

a third of their seats, and control of three councils -

while the Tories more than doubled their number of councillors.

In Wales, both the Conservatives and Plaid Cymru made gains,

There was some encouraging news for Jeremy Corbyn's party

after Liverpool and Manchester both elected Labour mayors,

although the Tories narrowly won the West Midlands mayoral race.

We're joined now by who else but elections expert John Curtice.

You saw him in Emma's film, he's now back in Glasgow.

In broad terms, what do these local election results tell us about the

general election result? First we have to remember what Theresa May

wants to achieve in the general election is a landslide, and winning

a landslide means you have to win big in terms of votes. The local

election results certainly suggest Theresa May is well on course to win

the general election, at least with four weeks to go, and of course

people could change their minds. We all agree the Conservatives were

double-digit figures ahead of Labour in these elections. However, whereas

the opinion polls on average at the moment suggest there is a 17 point

Conservative lead, and that definitely would deliver a

landslide, it seems the local election figures, at least in

England, are pointing to something close to an 11 point Conservative

lead. That increase would not necessarily deliver a landslide that

she wants. The truth is, the next four weeks are probably not about

who wins this election unless something dramatic changes, but

there is still a battle as to whether or not Theresa May achieves

her objective of winning a landslide. She has to win big. The

local elections as she is not sure to be there, and therefore she is

going to have to campaign hard. Equally, while Labour did have most

prospect of winning, they still at least at the goal of trying to keep

the conservative majority relatively low, and therefore the Parliamentary

Labour Party are alive and kicking. Interesting that the local election

results don't produce a landslide if replicated on June 8th, but when I

looked at when local elections had taken place a month before the

general election, it was in 1983 and 1987. The Tories did well in both

local elections in these years, but come the general election, they

added five points to their share of the vote. No reason it should happen

again, but if it did, that would take them into landslide territory.

Absolutely right, if they do five points better than the local

elections, they are in landslide territory. We have to remember, in

1983, the Labour Party ran an inept campaign and their support ballet.

In 1987, David Owen and David Steele could not keep to the same lines. --

their support fell away. That underlines how well the opposition

campaign in the next four weeks does potentially matter in terms of

Theresa May's ability to achieve their objective. It is worth

noticing in the opinion polls, two things have happened, first, Ukip

voters, a significant slice going to the Conservatives, which helped to

increase the Conservative leader in the bowels. But in the last week,

the Labour vote seems to have recovered. -- in the polls. So the

party is not that far short of what Ed Miliband got in 2015, so the

Conservative leader is back down to 16 or 17, as we started. So we

should not necessarily presume Labour are going to go backwards in

the way they did in 1983. I want to finish by asking if there are deeper

forces at work? Whether the referendum in this country is

producing a realignment in British politics. The Scottish referendum

has produced a kind of realignment in Scotland. And in a different way,

the Brexit referendum has produced a realignment in England and Wales. Do

you agree? You are quite right. Referendums are potentially

disruptive in Scotland, they helped to ensure the constitutional

question became the central issue, and the 45% who voted yes our been

faithful to the SNP since. Although the SNP put in a relatively

disappointing performance in Scotland on Thursday. Equally, south

of the border, on the leave side, in the past 12 months and particularly

the last few weeks, the Conservatives have corralled the

leave vote, about two thirds of those who voted leave now say they

will vote Conservative. Last summer, the figure was only 50%. On the

remain side, the vote is still fragmented. The reason why Theresa

May is in the strong position she is is not simply because the leave vote

has been realigned, but the remain vote has not. Thank you for joining

us. You can go through polls and wonder who is up and down, but I

wonder whether the Scottish and Brexit referendums have produced

fundamental changes. In Scotland, the real division now is between the

centre-left Nationalist party and the centre-right Unionist party.

That has had the consequence of squeezing out Labour in the

argument, never mind the Greens and the Lib Dems. In London, England,

Wales, the Brexit referendum seems to have produced a realignment of

the right to the Tories' advantage, and some trouble for the Labour blue

vote -- blue-collar vote. It works for the pro Brexit end of the

spectrum but not the other half. In the last century, we had people like

Roy Jenkins dreaming of and writing about the realignment of British

politics as though it could be consciously engineered, and in fact

what made it happen was just the calling of a referendum. It's not

something you can put about as a politician, it flows from below,

when the public begin to think of politics in terms of single issues,

dominant issues, such as leaving the European Union. Rather than a broad

spectrum designed by a political class. I wonder whether now Remain

have it in them to coalesce behind a single party. It doesn't look like

they can do it behind Labour. The Liberal Democrats are frankly too

small in Parliament to constitute that kind of force. The closest

thing to a powerful Remain party is the SNP which by definition has

limited appeal south of the border. It is hard. The realignment. We

don't know if it is permanent or how dramatic it will be, but there is

some kind of realignment going on. At the moment, it seems to be a

realignment that by and large is to the benefit of the Conservatives.

Without a doubt, and that can be directly attributed to the

disappearance of Ukip from the political landscape. I have been

saying since the referendum that I thought Ukip was finished. They

still seem to be staggering on under the illusion... Some people may have

picked up on Nigel Farage this morning saying that Ukip still had a

strong role to play until Brexit actually happens. But I think it's

very, very hard to convince the voters of that, because they feel

that, with the result of the referendum, that was Ukip's job

done. And those votes are not going to delay the party -- to the Labour

Party because of the flaws with Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, they are

shifting to the Tories. I agree. The key issue was the referendum. It has

produced a fundamental change that few predicted at the time it was

called. Most fundamental of all, it has brought about a unity in the

Conservative Party. With some exceptions, but they are now off

editing the Evening Standard and other things! This is now a party

united around Brexit. Since 1992, the Tories have been split over

Europe, at times fatally so. The referendum, in ways that David

Cameron did not anticipate, has brought about a united front for

this election. In a way, this is a sequel to the referendum, because

it's about Brexit but we still don't know what form Brexit is going to

take. By calling it early, Theresa May has in effect got another go at

a kind of Brexit referendum without knowing what Brexit is, with a

united Tory party behind her. We shall see if it is a blip or a

long-term trend in British politics. Now let's turn to Labour's big

campaign announcement today, and that was the promise of no

income tax rise for those earning less than ?80,000 -

which of course means those earning more than that could

face an increase. Here's Shadow Chancellor John

McDonell on the BBC earlier. What we are saying today, anyone

earning below ?80,000, we will guarantee you will not have an

increase in income tax, VAT or national insurance contributions.

For those above 80,000, we are asking them to pay a modest bit more

to fund our public services. A modest bit. You will see it will be

a modest increase. Talking about modest increases, so we can have a

society which we believe everyone shares the benefits of.

We're joined now by Shadow Justice Secretary Richard Burgon, in Leeds.

Mr McDonnell stressed that for those earning over 80,000, they would be

paying more but it would be modest. He used the word modest 45 times.

But there is only 1.2 million of them. -- 4-5 times. So that would

not raise much money. This is about the key part of this tax policy for

the many, not the few. We are saying that low earners and middle earners

won't be paying more tax under a Labour government, which is not a

policy the Conservatives have committed to yet. As John McDonnell

also said in his interview earlier, if there is a tax rise on the top 5%

of earners, earning over ?80,000, it would be a modest rise. I am trying

to work out what that would mean in terms of money. If it is too modest,

you don't raise much. What will happen is the Labour Party's

manifesto, published in the next couple of weeks, wilfully set out

and cost it. I can't make an announcement now. -- will fully set

out and cost it. Moving on to the local elections, Mr Corbyn says he

is closing the gap with the Tories. What evidence is there? John Curtis

just said there was an 11% gap in the results, Labour 11% behind. The

polls before that suggested Labour were anything up to 20% behind. Was

it a great day for Labour? Certainly not. Is there a lot to do between

now and June? Sure, but we are relishing every moment of that.

Comparing equivalent elections in 2013, the Tories increased their

share of the vote by 13%. You lost 2%. That's a net of 15%. In what way

is that closing the gap? We have gone down to 11 points behind. Am I

satisfied? Certainly not. Is Labour satisfied? Certainly not. A week is

a long time in politics, 4-5 weeks is even longer. The local elections

are over, the general election campaign is starting, and we want to

put out there the policies that will improve the lives of low and middle

income earners. And also many people looking to be well off as well. You

lost 133 seats in Scotland. Are you closing the gap in Scotland? The

journey back for Labour in Scotland, I always thought, wouldn't be an

easy one. Since the council election results and Scotland that we are

comparing this to, there has been an independence referendum and the

terrible results for Labour in the 2015 general election. So it is a

challenge, but one hundreds of thousands of Labour members are

determined to meet. That is why we're talking about bread and butter

policies to make people's lives better. These local elections took

place midtown. Normally mid-term was the worst time for a government. --

took place midterm. And the best for an opposition. That is a feature of

British politics. So why did you lose 382 councillors in a midterm

election? As Andy Burnham said when he gave his acceptance speech after

his terrific first ballot result win in Manchester, it was an evening of

mixed results for Labour. Generally bad, wasn't it? Why did you lose all

of these councillors midterm? It is not a welcome result for Labour, I

am not going to be deluded. But what I and the Labour Party are focused

on is the next four weeks. And how we are going to put across policies

like free school meals for primary school children, ?10 an hour minimum

wage, the pledge not to increase tax for low and middle earners, 95% of

earners in this country. And saving the NHS from privatisation and

funding it properly. These are just some of the policies, including by

the way a boost in carers' allowance, that will make the lives

of people in Britain better off. Labour are for the many, not for the

few. But people like from political parties aspiring to government is to

be united and to be singing from the same song sheet among the leaders.

You mentioned Andy Burnham. Why did he not join Mr Corbyn when Jeremy

Corbyn went to the rally in Manchester on Friday to celebrate

his victory? First of all, Andy Burnham did a radio interview

straight after his great victory in which he said Jeremy Corbyn helped

him to win votes in that election. Why didn't he turn up? As to the

reason Andy Burnham wasn't there at the meeting Jeremy was doing in

Manchester, it was because, I understand, Andy was booked into

celebrate his victory with his family that night. I don't begrudge

him that and hopefully you don't. The leader has made the effort to

travel to Manchester to celebrate one of the few victories you enjoyed

on Thursday, surely you would join the leader and celebrate together?

Well, I don't regard, and I am sure you don't, Andy Burnham a nice time

with his family... -- I don't begrudge. He made it clear Jeremy

Corbyn assisted him. I can see you are not convinced yourself. I am

convinced. The outgoing Labour leader in Derbyshire lost his seat

on Thursday, you lost Derbyshire, which was a surprise in itself... He

said that genuine party supporters said they were not voting Labour

while you have Jeremy Corbyn as leader. Are you hearing that on the

doorstep too? I have been knocking on hundreds of doors this week in my

constituency and elsewhere. And of course, you never get every single

voter thinking the leader of any political party is the greatest

thing since sliced bread. But it's only on a minority of doorsteps that

people are criticising the Labour leader. Most people aren't even

talking about these questions. Most people are talking about Jeremy

Corbyn's policies, free primary school meals, ?10 an hour minimum

wage. Also policies such as paternity pay, maternity pay and

sickness pay for the self-employed, that have been hard-pressed under

this government. So I don't recognise that pitch of despondency,

but I understand that in different areas, in local elections,

perspectives are different. That was Derbyshire. The outgoing Labour

leader of Nottinghamshire County Council said there was concern on

the doorstep about whether Jeremy Corbyn was the right person to lead

the Labour Party, and even Rotherham, loyal to Mr Corbyn, won

the mail contest in Liverpool, he said that the Labour leader was more

might on the doorstep. -- the mayor contest. Does that explain some of

the performance on Thursday? I am confident that in the next four

weeks, when we get into coverage on television, that people will see

further the kind of open leadership Jeremy provides. In contrast to

Theresa May's refusal to meet ordinary people. She came to my

constituency and I don't think that a single person who lives here. And

also she is ducking the chance to debate with Jeremy Corbyn on TV. She

should do it and let the people decide. I don't know why she won't.

Finally, the Labour mantra is that you are the party of the ordinary

people, why is it the case that among what advertisers call C2s, D

and E', how can you on the pulse of that social group, how can you do

that? Our policy is to assist, protect and improve the living

standards of people in those groups and our policy is to protect the

living standards of the majority... They do not seem to be convinced? We

have four weeks to convince them and I believe that we will. Thank you

for coming onto the programme. But the wooden spoon from Thursday's

elections undoubtedly went to Ukip. Four years ago the party

won its best ever local government performance,

but this time its support just Ukip's share of the vote

plunging by as much as 18 points, most obviously

benefiting the Conservatives. So is it all over for

the self-styled people's army? Well we're joined now

by the party's leader in the Welsh Assembly,

Neil Hamilton, he's in Cardiff. Neil Hamilton, welcome. Ukip

finished local elections gaining the same number of councillors as the

Rubbish Party, one. That sums up your prospects, doesn't

it? Rubbish? We have been around a long time and seemed that I'd go

out, go in again, we will keep calm and carry on. We are in a phoney

war, negotiations on Brexit have not started but what we know from

Theresa May is that in seven years, as Home Secretary and Prime

Minister, she has completely failed to control immigration which was one

of the great driving forces behind the Brexit result. I'm not really

looking for any great success in immigration from the Tories, and a

lot of people who have previously voted for Ukip will be back in our

part of the field again. They don't seem to care about that at the

moment, your party lost 147 council seats. You gain one. It is time to

shut up shop, isn't it? You are right, the voters are not focusing

on other domestic issues at the moment. They have made up their

minds going into these negotiations in Brussels, Theresa May, as Prime

Minister, needs as much support as she can get. I think they are wrong

in this respect, it would be better to have a cohort of Ukip MPs to back

her up. She was greatly helped by the intervention of Mr Juncker last

week as well, the stupidity in how the European Commission has tried to

bully the British government, in those circumstances the British

people will react in one way going the opposite way to what the

Brussels establishment one. She has been fortunate as an acute tactician

in having the election now. I struggle to see the way back for

your party. You aren't a threat to the Tories in the south. Ukip voters

are flocking to the Tories in the south. You don't threaten Labour in

the north. It is the Tories who threaten Labour now in the north.

There is no room to progress, is there? The reality will be is that

once we are back on the domestic agenda again, and the Brexit

negotiations are concluded, we will know what the outcome is. And the

focus will be on bread and butter issues. We have all sorts of

policies in our programme which other parties cannot match us on.

The talk is putting up taxes to help the health service, we would scrap

the foreign aid budget and put another ?8 billion in the health

service, no other party says that. These policies would be popular with

the ordinary working person. Is Paul Nuttall to blame on the meltdown of

what happened, no matter who is leader? These are cosmic forces

beyond the control of any individual at the moment, it is certainly not

Paul Nuttall's .com he's been in the job for six months and in half that

time he was fighting a by-election -- certainly not Paul Nuttall's

fault. We have two become more professional than we have been

recently. It has not been a brilliant year for Ukip one way or

another, as you know, but there are prospects, in future, that are very

rosy. I do not believe that the Tories will deliver on other

promises that they are now making. The Welsh assembly elections are not

until 2021, you are a member of that, but at that point you will not

have any MEPs, because we will be out on the timetable. With this

current showing he will have no end', you could be Ukip's most

senior elected representative. That would be a turnout for the books! --

no elected MPs. The Tories are not promoting the policies that I

believe them. You will see that in the Ukip manifesto when it is

shortly publish... Leaders talk mainly about the male genital

mutilation and is -- female and burqas. No, when the manifesto

launched, we have a lot of policies, I spoke moments ago about it, but

also on foreign aid. Scrapping green taxes, to cut people's electricity

bills by ?300 per year on average. There are a lot of popular policies

that we have. We will hear more from that in the weeks to come.

Paul Nuttall said "If the price of written leaving the year is a Tory

advance after taking up this patriarch course, it is a price that

Ukip is prepared to pay". That sounds like a surrender statement?

It is a statement of fact, the main agenda is to get out of the EU and

have full Brexit. That is why Ukip came into existence 20 years ago.

When it is achieved, we go back to the normal political battle lines.

Niall Hamilton in Cardiff, thank you very much for joining us.

It's just gone 11.35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

Hello, I'm Martyn Oates. we'll be talking about the French

Coming up on the Sunday Politics here in the South West: We may be

in a general election campaign, but that's not stopping a Tory

revolt against their own government's plan

We have every Conservative member of Parliament in Devon writing

to the Prime Minister saying something has to happen

And for the next 20 minutes, I'm joined by Labour Parliamentary

candidate Ben Bradshaw and Conservative

Welcome both of you to the programme.

On Tuesday, the Prime Minister was campaigning

I asked her whether a Conservative Government would replace

the hundreds of millions of pounds of EU funding Cornwall would have

received from 2020 on, if Britain were still a member.

Well, this is a really important election, it's the most crucial

election I think the country has faced in my lifetime,

because it is about how we take this country through Brexit and beyond,

how we ensure that we are building a stronger...

Yes, I'm going to come onto the funding issue.

But it is not just about the issue of funding, it is about a modern

industrial strategy, it is about ensuring

we are promoting and encouraging the growth of the economy

across the whole of the United Kingdom, including Cornwall.

As somebody said on twitter, that is in no then. We have guaranteed the

European funding... And tell 2020? Yes. The EU haven't guaranteed that

it continues beyond that date. If you look at the state of the Cornish

economy, and economic miracle aside... We are than a third tranche

of EU funding, and I am actually really angry about people talking

Cornwall down. Every sect to the Government's industrial strategy, we

will see the economy grow, and we can actually stand up for ourselves

in Carmel, rather than expecting hand-outs are the time. We will be

free of the shackles of the European union rules, money will be able to

be spent in Carmel that will actually enable the economy to come

up to the rest of the country. The Government presumably has the option

to say, we don't need Brussels to send money to Connell, we will do

it. I noticed the Prime Minister avoided your question. You weren't

one of their journalist locked out of the room and what was a calamity

is's calamitous visit for this by Minister. We know what the Tories

will face. With Labour invested the equivalent sum of money? The Tories

are heading for a landslide. If anybody in this country cares about

having decent book's decent opposition. They have to do whatever

they can. So that is in no as well. Thursday's local election results

made comforting reading for the Conservatives in all four

south west counties. The Tories retained control

of Dorset, Somerset and Devon county councils and replaced the Lib Dems

as the biggest party In a moment we'll be joined

by a Lib Dem to discuss what all this means for the General Election,

but first here's Ben Woolvin On his way up, but tinged

with disappointment. I just been told I'm

second, not first. The Conservative leader

of Devon County Council, miffed he didn't top

the winners' table. But his 2000-odd votes were more

than enough to secure his seat, and he sits supreme

with an increased majority. John Hart's personal victory

the envy of his fellow Conservative council leaders

in Dorset and Somerset... I ran a positive county

council campaign. ..who both lost their

seats to the Lib Dems. I leave a positive

legacy for Somerset. But elsewhere in Somerset

and Dorset, more gains for the Tories, leaving the party

in control of both counties. The Conservatives replaced

the Lib Dems as the biggest party in Cornwall and fancy their chances

of leading a coalition here. We are going to have to wait

for everyone to sit down, for the Conservative Party to sit

down, discuss where our numbers are, and just look at what is going

to be best for Cornwall, and who we are going to be

doing business with, if we are going to be

doing with anyone. Back in Devon, the fall

of another big name, this time a Lib Dem,

the former MP Richard Younger-Ross, who says his defeat in these local

elections means he won't be There was little sign of the fight

back the Lib Dems had hoped for, but for those in Cornwall

who remember the pain of 2015, I just can't believe

it, to be honest. I got 580-something

last time in 2013. Optimism in the Ukip ranks too,

despite the party's total wipe-out. I honestly don't believe

Ukip is finished. We will bounce back, but at

the moment the priority is Brexit. But a party that delivers

on its promise - we'll still be As for Labour, its Exeter stronghold

remained impregnable, a successful blends those

in Cornwall are desperate to taste. Of course, it is in the tea

room that you hear And plenty of talk today

about what this all this means I even overheard some Labour

activists saying they reckon they are in with a chance in St

Ives. I have been a Labour MP in Cornwall,

and we have a history, Is that going to happen

this time, though? I'll be honest, I think that is

unlikely, but you never know. But it's the Lib Dems who really

fancy their chances in west Cornwall, though these local results

projected onto the St Ives constituency don't give

the Lib Dems enough on an MP. Their fate could rest

in the hands of the Greens. And still rumours here of a deal

between the two parties. To discuss as we are joined by the

Lib Dem parliamentary candidate for a Yeovil Jo Roundell Green. He said

there is little sign of a Lib Dem revival. The reality as it was

pretty disastrous. An overall loss of eight seats. If I looked a

Yeovil, we really did very well. We went and with six and became it with

six. We have lost a leader, we have very pleased that John Osman has

been replaced, and that is good for Somerset. In Yeovil in itself, we

haven't really had any change. It doesn't make much difference. I can

see it as a bitter pill to see the leader goal, but the reality as it

was a great deal of anticipation, you saw the Lib Dem leader in the

south-east a lot. This could be a resurgence. Nothing like it. It is

neck and neck at the moment. The difference in the vote is 1% in

favour, and really feel we are idea to one. We are going to a nest

general election, and voting last week was a very good indicator that

people beginning to realise that the Lib Dems are still here, we are

fighting back. We are very very strong. Yeovil has always been a

very strong Liberal Democrat, with Paddy Ashdown and endeavoured laws,

we really strongly believe with our fantastic new candidates and county

council... How many seats do you think you will take in the

south-west? I think we could easily take three and possibly more. I

think people are very unsure, just talking to them on the doorstep you

can tell that they don't know what will happen. In the local election,

people aren't necessarily focused on the national picture. And the

general election the lobby, so if the go this way even and the local,

it bodes very badly. I don't think it does. I know we have a very good

chance in Yeovil, where we work extremely hard, and we need to fight

for what we have locally. Our for what we have locally. Our

aerospace engineer, R schools and NHS. Exeter again produced very good

Labour result. The party seems to Labour result. The party seems to

have a better the Midas touch there. Elsewhere, it was a terrible night

for Labour. I was delighted that we held all of our seats in Exeter,

although there was a swing to the although there was a swing to the

Conservatives so we are not at all, pleasing given the results elsewhere

were so bad fellas. Also, the results confirm what the opinion

polls show, which is that the Conservatives are heading for up

probable landslide. I think everybody fears that prospect. This

extreme hard Brexit, outside the EU, people need to do what ever they can

if they want a decent opposition after this election should be

rallying to those opposition parties. Sheryll will say, all, nor

we are not romping to victory. This is all about who covers the country

on the basis of these results, it is a mountain. I agree and that is what

I have just said. As you conceding defeat then? Do you think there is

little prospect... There is one opposition member of Parliament at

the moment. It is me and my seat is at risk. People have to vote for MPs

who can be an opposition in parliament. It is very bad for

democracy and by the health of our democracy given a huge challenge we

face of a Brexit, over school funding, not to have a single

opposition MP. It would be a disaster. The local election results

were encouraging, but we don't take anything for granted. This is why

you're talking it down... In message as if you want Theresa May and tag

team to have a strong and stable Government and to be fighting a

corner and getting the strongest possible deal for Brexit, you have

to vote for the Conservative Party. Don't leave it for others. Everyone

has to go out there to make sure we have a strong negotiator. It is so

important. This election is so important for our country, and we

can either have an strong negotiator in Brussels and Theresa May Jamie

Caven who will come away with a few crumbs that the EU are prepared to

offer those. -- Jeremy Corbin, who will come away. Everyone knows the

Conservatives are heading for a landslide. As you happy you that

Jeremy Corbyn will go to Brussels and negotiate follows? Are you

saying you have confidence and your leader. You have spoken up against

them for so long. You happy that time firing, his whole M is to

become an opposition leader. Isn't this the problem of the last

election. The Conservatives said if you vote for anyone else you will

get Ed Miliband. A pupil at focused on the national picture, and this is

the message that is pushing again. As like the record got stuck. Tim

Farron just wants to be an opposition. I think one has to be

realistic. There has to be a strong opposition, because every don't have

somebody else scrutinised in what Theresa May is doing, and I worry

very much. Can I finish? You need somebody to be watching what is

happening to scrutinise the checks and balances. We cannot have Theresa

May negotiating and not coming back, and other people watching what she

is doing to make sure this is what is best for our country. I also feel

very strongly behalf to do the day job. There are still gone to be

people who need their benefits, housing. We need to make sure our

schools and hospitals are getting the right amount of funding and that

rockets fell been continued. I want to move the discussion on to a more

specific issue. A reminder at the Bobby if the list of general

election candidates... candidates in Yeovil,

Exeter, South East Cornwall, and indeed every constituency,

on the BBC website. And if you're interested

in standing yourself, you've got until Thursday

when nominations close. The Government's controversial plans

to change school funding has aroused huge opposition

within the Conservative Party. Now, in the general election

campaign itself, Tory candidates, including seven hoping to be

re-elected as MPs in Devon, have attacked the policy and are calling

on the Prime Minister I do hereby declare that

Tony Inch is duly elected. After all the gladhanding,

payback time. If we're going to do

a formula that makes sense, we've got to have money that

actually increases in Devon, not that two thirds of the children

in Devon lose their funding. It's shaping up to be

one of the big issues. For years, councils in the region

have moaned about how little dosh A new school funding formula

that the Government was at pains to stress was fairer promised much,

but in reality many schools are now facing a far harder cash crisis.

If these proposals are adopted, we're going to have 15 primary

schools gaining, 20 losing out, and all the secondary schools

in East Devon losing out. This is clearly neither

fair nor acceptable. So, fresh from delivering

a local Tory landslide, grassroots Conservatives want

something in return. I think we will get more money

for schools, but how long it is going to take,

I don't know. It depends on the Secretary

of State for Education, and we understand there's a good

chance that that may change. Some think the scale of the Tory

victory in Thursday's local elections could

lead to complacency... Was a Remainer, and now

she is a Brexiteer. ..reducing the chances

of any extra school cash I think, really, in County,

the people have taken They haven't seen what's coming yet,

and the Conservatives don't even But they were rumours

last week of a U-turn, with 60 conservative backbench MPs

threatening a rebellion. We have every Conservative member

of Parliament in Devon writing to the Prime Minister

saying something has The formula that was produced,

the national formula, It's tough talk, but it

doesn't end there. In the hours after the local

landslide, another letter from a Devon headteacher urging

parents to put pressure on Tories I think Labour had made an

announcement, they will put more money into schools. I think it is 3

haul schools are suffering. I don't haul schools are suffering. I don't

think you addressing the issue of redistribution. The funding issue is

pretty marginal one compared with the overall cuts. Overall cuts are

7% at. My skills in Exeter are losing hundreds of thousands of

pounds a year now. There haven't they are teachers and classroom

assistants. The Conservatives in Parliament have had several

opportunities to vote against us. We have had debates and vote against

it, they have never done anything. Now that as an election, they are

may do something. Not about the overall cuts, just about before

Miller. There are 300,000 more pupils and good understanding

schools in the south-west and they were in 2010. ?3 billion has gone

into schools in the south-west through the pupil premium. You

saying they don't deserve any money? 3 million more apprenticeships have

been found since the Conservatives came in to Government. And Ben's

party could have done something to party could have done something to

address the failure of funding as you when they were in Government and

they didn't act. Somebody has to grasp the nettle. Somebody,... There

was a port in the Evening Standard that George Osborne treated out.

Tory candidates everywhere and unhappy. I have to say to you that I

met with Justin Greening and the last Parliament, we all met with a.

She hasn't made any firm announcement yet. There

consultation, and she wants to take consultation, and she wants to take

it very seriously before she makes an announcement. Do you agree with

the Devon candidate and former MPs who say this needs to change? I am

waiting to see what the announcement adds. But we know what it means. She

has consulted on their present proposals and hasn't made any

announcement. It is all about fairness. It is wrong that skills

and Westminster get twice as much as children and my constituency at the

moment. Something has to happen and when you realign something, you

always get winners and losers. You always get winners and losers. But

despite rejigging the funding formula when you are cutting the

budget is madness. By 300,000 pupils... Please let me and set

Martyn's question. They Conservative MPs at Westminster have had numerous

virginity is to stop this. They could have voted with us but never

has. They are pretending it is an issue because it as an election on.

It is actually the overall cuts to our schools. We invested and schools

and that is what they should be doing. Yes I know, at the present

proposals you right or wrong? I can't say yes or no because I

haven't seen the final proposals. We will have to leave it there.

Now our regular round-up of the political week in 60 seconds.

Parts of north and south-east Cornwall joined St Ives in voting

for new restrictions on second homes.

It would be nice to see families back in the village again.

Devon City Council moves forward with plans to give fishermen free

GPS-equipped life jackets, and the EU is been asked to put up

the hundreds and thousands of pounds needed to buy the next batch.

If we could take that pain away from everything by keeping

the fishermen alive, then the benefits are long-reaching

Labour's candidate in Camborne and Redruth at the last general

election, Michael Foster, threatens to stand against party

leader Jeremy Corbyn as an independent on June 8th.

Seagulls watching the PM's chips are hungry for some limelight...

The Conservatives really pushed back and destroyed the Liberal Democrats.

..while those feeding seagulls in parts of East Devon

There definitely needs to be something more stringent to stop

You're obviously both delighted to hear about the Seagull fine, but I

am keen to talk about the second homes issue. To be clear, this is

restricting new-build homes to permanent residents. Do you agree

with that? Very sensible in pockets when there's a problem, but of

course the main prizes as affordability. People cannot afford

to get on the property ladder, they can't afford the high level of

private rents. We need a much better housing market so local people can

afford both to buy and to rent. It is a problem and holiday areas, and

that is a good solution, but it has not gone to solve the overall

problem. I am really pleased that the neighbourhood plans have started

to come forward. It has taken too long. They were introduced in 2011,

I think it is right that we start looking at new belt so that people

aren't building second homes as new-builds and that will hopefully

help people to get on the housing ladder. The one thing that we must

do, which is where we started this discussion, is make sure the economy

in places like Connell improves so that wages improve and young people

can actually afford to get. You would need a massive improvement in

the economy to start closing the gap. Because we have gone for the

last 12 years relying on European hand-outs. Just quickly, then, do

you have any advice for Michael Foster standing against Jeremy

Corbyn? No. None at all. You wouldn't welcome the development?

People have got to do what they think is right and left, that is

what I always try to do. That's the Sunday Politics

in the South West. housing associations and investment,

but we have run out of time, thank you. Andrew.

Four weeks to go until polling day on the 8th of June, what will the

party strategies be for the remaining four weeks? Let's begin

with the Conservatives. Do they just try to continue to play it safe for

four weeks? Yes, with this important qualification. Theresa May Corp this

election to get her own personal mandate partly, partly because she

thought she would win big but to get her own personal mandate. Therefore,

she needs to define it. In her own interests and to do with

accountability to the country. So clearly, they will not take risks

when they are so far ahead in the polls. What they do say in the

manifesto matters in terms of the space that she has in

the coming years to define her leadership against David Cameron 's.

She is a free figure, partly on the basis of what she says as to how big

she wins. They cannot just play it safe and repeat their mantra of

strong and stable leadership, if she is going to claim her own mandate,

they need the top policy? Yes, and what is unusual about this is that

the manifesto matters far more because of what they need to do with

it afterwards, than in terms of whether it is going to win anybody

over now. Clearly, the strategy is yes, we do have two layout out a few

things, there are interesting debates as to whether, for example,

they will still commit to this ambition of reducing immigration to

the tens of thousands, we do not know the answer yet. It is a

question on whether she is setting herself up for difficulties later

on. It will be a short manifesto, I would venture to guess? It is in her

interests to be as noncommittal as possible, that argues for a short

manifesto but what does strike me about the Conservative campaign,

aside from the ambiguity on policy, is how personal it is. I think

Theresa May, in her most recent speech, referred to "My local

candidates", rather than Parliamentary candidates, very much

framing it as a presidential candidate in France or the USA. Not

a rational on her part. Everything I hear from the MPs on the ground and

the focus groups being done by the parties, is that a big chunk of the

population personally identify with her. If you can wrap up Middle

England into a physical object and embody it in a person, it would be

her. Although Jeremy Corbyn's unpopularity accounts for a big

slice of her popularity, she has done a good job of bonding with the

public. We never saw that coming! But you may well be right. That is

happening now. Labour say it wants the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell

to play a more prominent role in the Labour campaign, he was on The

Andrew Marr Show this morning and he was asked if he was a Marxist, he

denied that he was. It surprised me as I had seen tape from before

saying that he was proud of it. Let's look now and then. Are you a

Marxist? I believe that there is a lot to learn... Yes or no? I believe

that there is a lot to learn from reading capital, that is recommended

not only by me but measuring economists as well. I also believe

that in the long tradition of the Labour Party... We need to demand

systemic change. I am a Marxist. This is a classic crisis of the

economy. A capitalist crisis. I've been waiting for this for a

generation! That was from about four years ago. No, I'm not a Marxist,

yes, I am a Marxist... I've been waiting for the Marxist revolution

my whole life... Does this kind of thing matter? Yes, but in fairness,

I think he is a really good interviewee. The Shadow Cabinet have

untested figures in a national campaign. None have ever been

exposed at any level to a national media campaign that they are about

to experience. He is the best interviewee. In fairness to him,

when he gave that clip four years ago, I bet he never dream that he

would be in a senior front bench position. But the background is

clear. They are of the left, and I think they would all have described

it. Jeremy Corbyn would have done, he is close to being like Tony Benn.

There are about four Labour campaign is being fought in this election.

Their campaign, the old Shadow Cabinet, campaigning in

constituencies, but not identifying with that campaign. There is the

former Labour leader Tony Blair. Is it damaging? I think so, if they

could be damaged any further, I could see all of the Labour MPs with

their heads in their hands. What I am hearing from Labour MPs is that

there is not one of them who do not feel that they have a horrendous

battle on their hands. These will be very individual local campaigns,

where local MPs are winning despite the party leadership and not because

of it. Already, talk is turning to what happens next. Is there anyway

that Jeremy Corbyn, giving a horrendous set of general election

results as many anticipate, may stay on all the same? It is not clear

that even if the polls are right, that Mr Corbyn will go? John

McDonnell implied it might not be the case but previously, he said it

would be. What do you make of reports that the Labour strategy is

not, I cannot quite believe I am saying this, not to win seats but

maximise a share of the vote. If they do better than Ed Miliband with

30.5% of the vote, they believe they live to fight another day? Yes, it

reminded me of Tony Benn's speech after the 1983 election where they

said as bad as the Parliamentary defeat was there were 8 million

votes for socialism. A big section of public opinion voted for that

manifesto. I wonder whether that is Corbyn's supporters best chance of

holding onto power. Whether they can say that those votes are a platform

on which we can build. That said, even moderate Labour MPs and

desperate for a quick leadership contest. I hear a lot of them say

that they would like to leave it for one year. Maybe have Tom Watson as

an acting Labour leader. He would still have a mandate. Give the top

party a chance to regroup and get rid of some of its problems and

decide where it stands on policy. Most importantly, for potential

candidates to show what they are made of, rather than lurching

straight into an Yvette Cooper Coronation. 30 seconds on the

Liberal Democrats, their strategy was to mop up the Remain vote.

Uncertain about the Brexit party in demise. Ukip. The remain as have a

dilemma, the little Democrats are not a strong enough vessel with 89

MPs to risk all ongoing for them -- the Liberal Democrats. Labour do not

know where they stand on Brexit. There is not a robust alternative

vessel for what is now a pro-Brexit Conservative Party. At the moment.

Four weeks to go, but not for France...

France has been voting since early this morning, and we should get

a first estimate of who will be the country's next President

Just to warn you there are some flashing images coming up.

The choice in France is between a centre-left liberal

reformer Emmanuel Macron and a right-wing nationalist

Marine Le Pen - both have been casting their votes this morning.

The two candidates topped a field of 11 presidential

hopefuls in the first round of elections last month.

The campaign has been marked by its unpredictability,

and in a final twist on Friday evening, just before

campaigning officially ended, Mr Macron's En Marche! group said

it had been the victim of a "massive" hack,

with a trove of documents released online.

The Macron team said real documents were mixed up with fake ones,

and electoral authorities warned media and the public that spreading

details of the leaks would breach strict election rules.

I'm joined now from Paris by the journalist

As I left Paris recently, everybody told me that there was the consensus

that Mr Macron would win, and win pretty comfortable you. Is there any

reason to doubt that? -- pretty comfortably. I don't think so, there

have been so many people left and right, former candidates who have

decided that it was more important to vote for Macron, even if it was

agreed with him, then run the risk of having Marine Le Pen as

president. I think the spread is now 20 points, 60% to Macron, 40% to Le

Pen. So outside of the margin of error that it would take something

huge for this to be observed. If the polls are right and Mr Macron wins,

he has to put together a government, and in May there is a Coronation,

then he faces parliamentary elections in June and could face a

fractured parliament where he does not have a clear majority for his

reforms. He could then faced difficulties in getting his

programme through? I think that right now, with how things are

looking, considering you have one half of the Republican party, the

Conservative Party, they are making clear sides, not only that they want

to support Macron but are supporting him actively. It means looking at

the equivalent of the German party, the great coalition. Depending on

how many seats established parties keep in the house committee may very

well have a Republican Prime Minister, rather than having an

adversarial MP, he may have someone who is relatively unknown outside of

France, and a young woman. Contended that lost the Parez mayorship three

years ago. She is a scientist and has been secretary of state. She

would be an interesting coalition Prime Minister. Finally, Marine Le

Pen, if she goes down to defeat a night, does she have the stomach and

ambition, and the energy, to try it all again in 2022? She has all of

that. The question is, would they let her? How badly would she lose?

Her niece, now 27, a hard-working and steady person, unlike Marine Le

Pen, who flunked her do paid -- debate, her niece may decide that

2022 is her turn. Yet another Le Pen! All right, we will see. Just

five years to wait, but only a few hours until the results of the

election tonight. And we will get the exit polls here

on the BBC. Given the exit polls will give as a pretty fair

indication of what the result is going to be tonight. That will be on

BBC news. That's all for today. The Daily Politics will cover every

turn of this election campaign, And we're back here on BBC One

at our usual time Next Sunday. Remember - if it's Sunday,

it's the Sunday Politics. Our crack team of experts

use pioneering research ..to how to help your pet

lose weight. She's got right dangly earrings

with sausages on them. Celebrate one of Britain's

greatest comedy heroes with Oh, what a lovely thing to say!

I'm filling up again now. Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!

Ooh, in't she wonderful? If you're not careful, you'll end up

playing this sexy little blonde The East End girl who became the

nation's favourite. We don't know what it is,

but she definitely has... Something.