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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
The local election results made grim reading for Labour.
With just a month to go until the general election,
will promising to rule out tax rises for all but the well off help
The Conservatives have their own announcement on mental health,
as they strain every sinew to insist they don't think they've got
But is there still really all to play for?
And tonight we will find out who is the next
President of France - Emmanuel Macron or Marine Le Pen -
In the South West: ended with a hack attack
We may be in a general election campaign, but that's not
stopping a Tory revolt against the Government's plan
potential impact in marginals next month. If Ukip support continues to
evaporate... And joining me for all of that,
three journalists ready to analyse the week's politics
with all the forensic focus of Diane Abbott
preparing for an interview, and all the relaxed,
slogan-free banter of Theresa May It's Janan Ganesh, Isabel Oakeshott
and Steve Richards. So, the Conservatives are promising,
if re-elected, to change mental health laws in England and Wales
to tackle discrimination, and they're promising 10,000 more
staff working in NHS mental health treatment in England by 2020 -
although how that's to be Here's Health Secretary
Jeremy Hunt speaking There is a lot of new
money going into it. In January, we said we were going
to put an extra ?1 billion Does this come from other parts
of the NHS, or is it No, it is new money
going into the NHS It's not just of course money,
it's having the people who deliver these jobs,
which is why we need Well, we're joined now from Norwich
by the Liberal Democrat health This weekend, they've launched
their own health announcement, promising a 1% rise on every income
tax band to fund the NHS. Do you welcome the Conservatives
putting mental health onto the campaign agenda in the way that they
have? I welcome it being on the campaign agenda but I do fear that
the announcement is built on thin air. You raised the issue at the
start about the 10,000 extra staff, and questions surrounding how it
would be paid for. There is no additional money on what they have
already announced for the NHS. We know it falls massively short on the
expectation of the funding gap which, by 2020, is likely to be
about 30 billion. That is not disputed now. Anyone outside of the
government, wherever you are on the political spectrum, knows the money
going in is simply not enough. So, rather like the claim that they
would add 5000 GPs to the workforce by 2020, that is not on target.
Latest figures show a fall in the number of GPs. They make these
claims, but I'm afraid they are without substance, unless they are
prepared to put money behind it. Your party's solution to the money
problem is to put a 1% percentage point on all of the bands of income
tax to raise more money 20-45. Is that unfair? Most pensioners who
consume 40% of NHS spending, but over 65s only pay about 20% of
income tax. Are you penalising the younger generations for the health
care of an older generation? It is the first step in what we are
describing as a 5-point recovery plan for the NHS and care system.
So, for what is available to us now, it seems to be the fairest way of
bringing in extra resources, income tax is progressive, and is based on
your ability to pay for your average British worker. It would be ?3 per
week which is the cost of less than two cups of coffee per week. In the
longer run, we say that by the end of the next Parliament, we would be
able to introduce a dedicated NHS and care tax. Based, probably,
around a reformed national insurance system, so it becomes a dedicated
NHS and care tax. Interestingly, the former permanent secretary of the
Treasury, Nick MacPherson, said clearly that this idea merits
further consideration which is the first time anyone for the Treasury
has bought into the idea of this. Let me ask you this. You say it is a
small amount of tax that people on average incomes will have to pay
extra. We are talking about people who have seen no real increases to
their income since 2007. They have been struggling to stand still in
terms of their own pay, but you are going to add to their tax, and as I
said earlier, most of the health care money will then go to
pensioners whose incomes have risen by 15%. I'm interested in the
fairness of this redistribution? Bearing in mind first of all,
Andrew, that the raising of the tax threshold that the Liberal Democrats
pushed through in the coalition increased the effective pay in your
pocket for basic rate taxpayers by about ?1000. We are talking about a
tiny fraction of that. I suppose that you do have to ask, all of us
in this country need to ask ourselves this question... Are we
prepared to pay, in terms of the average worker, about ?3 extra per
week to give us a guarantee that when our loved ones need that care,
in their hour of need, perhaps suspected cancer, that care will be
available for them? I have heard two cases recently brought my attention.
An elderly couple, the wife has a very bad hip. They could not allow
the weight to continue. She was told that she would need to wait 26
weeks, she was in acute pain. They then deduct paying ?20,000 for
private treatment to circumvent waiting time. They hated doing it,
because they did not want to jump the queue. But that is what is
increasingly happening. Sorry to interrupt, Norman Lamb comedy make
very good points but we are short on time today. One final question, it
looks like you might have the chance to do any of this, I'm told the best
you can hope to do internally is to double the number of seats you have,
which would only take you to 18. Do you think that promising to raise
people's income tax, even those on average earnings, is a vote winner?
I think the people in this country are crying out for politicians to be
straight and tenet as it is. At the moment we heading towards a
Conservative landslide... -- tell it as it is. But do we want a 1-party
state? We are electing a government not only to deal with the crucial
Brexit negotiations, but oversee the stewardship of the NHS and funding
of our schools, all of these critical issues. We need an
effective opposition and with the Labour Party having taken itself off
stage, the Liberal Democrats need to provide an effective opposition.
Norman Lamb, thank you for joining us this morning. Thank you.
Labour and Tories are anxious to stress the general election
result is not a foregone conclusion, whatever the polls say.
Order you just heard Norman Lamb say there that he thought the
Conservatives were heading for a landslide...
But did Thursday's dramatic set of local election results
in England, Scotland and Wales give us a better idea of how the country
Here's Emma Vardy with a behind-the-scenes look at how
Good morning, it's seven o'clock on Friday, May 5th...
The dawn of another results day. Anticipation hung in the air.
Early results from the local elections in England suggest
there's been a substantial swing from Labour to the Conservatives.
While the pros did their thing, I needed breakfast.
Don't tell anyone, but I'm going to pinch a sausage.
The overnight counts had delivered successes for the Tories.
But with most councils only getting started,
there was plenty of action still to come.
It's not quite the night of Labour's nightmares.
There's enough mixed news in Wales, for example -
looks like they're about to hold Cardiff - that they'll try and put
But in really simple terms, four weeks from a general election,
the Tories are going forward and Labour are going backwards.
How does it compare being in here to doing the telly?
Huw, how do you prepare yourself for a long day of results, then?
We're not even on air yet, as you can see, and already
in Tory HQ this morning, there's a kind of, "Oh,
I'm scared this will make people think the election's just
I think leave it like that - perfect.
I want the Laura look. This is really good, isn't it?
Usually, we're in here for the Daily Politics.
But it's been transformed for the Election Results programme.
But hours went by without Ukip winning a single seat.
The joke going around Lincolnshire County Council today
from the Conservatives is that the Tories have eaten
We will rebrand and come back strong.
Morale, I think, is inevitably going to take a bit of a tumble.
Particularly if Theresa May starts backsliding on Brexit.
And then I think we will be totally reinvigorated.
There are a lot of good people in Ukip and I wouldn't
want to say anything unkind, but we all know it's over.
Ukip press officer. Difficult job.
Ukip weren't the only ones putting a brave face on it.
Labour were experiencing their own disaster day too,
losing hundreds of seats and seven councils.
If the result is what these results appear to indicate,
Can we have a quick word for the Sunday Politics?
A quick question for Sunday Politics - how are you feeling?
Downhearted or fired up for June? Fired up, absolutely fired up.
He's fired up. We're going to go out there...
We cannot go on with another five years of this.
How's it been for you today? Tiring.
It always is, but I love elections, I really enjoy them.
Yes, you know, obviously we're disappointed at some of the results,
it's been a mixed bag, but some opinion polls
and commentators predicted we'd be wiped out - we haven't.
As for the Lib Dems, not the resurgence they hoped for,
After a dead heat in Northumberland, the control of a whole council came
The section of England in which we had elections yesterday
was the section of England that was most likely to vote Leave.
When you go to sleep at night, do you just have election results
The answer is if that's still happening, I don't get to sleep.
There we go. Maybe practice some yoga...
Thank you very much but I have one here.
With the introduction of six regional mayors,
Labour's Andy Burnham became Mr Manchester.
But by the time Corbyn came to celebrate, the new mayor
We want you to stay for a second because I've got some
I used to present news, as you probably know.
I used to present BBC Breakfast in the morning.
The SNP had notable successes, ending 40 years of Labour
What did you prefer - presenting or politics?
And it certainly had been a hard day at the office for some.
Ukip's foothold in local government was all but wiped out,
leaving the Conservatives with their best local
So another election results day draws to a close.
But don't worry, we'll be doing it all again in five weeks' time.
For now, though, that's your lot. Off you go.
Now let's look at some of Thursday's results in a little more detail,
and what they might mean for the wider fortunes
In England, there were elections for 34 councils.
The Conservatives took control of ten of them,
gaining over 300 seats, while Labour sustained
While the Lib Dems lost 28 seats, Ukip came close to extinction,
and can now boast of only one councillor in the whole of England.
In Scotland, the big story was Labour losing
a third of their seats, and control of three councils -
while the Tories more than doubled their number of councillors.
In Wales, both the Conservatives and Plaid Cymru made gains,
There was some encouraging news for Jeremy Corbyn's party
after Liverpool and Manchester both elected Labour mayors,
although the Tories narrowly won the West Midlands mayoral race.
We're joined now by who else but elections expert John Curtice.
You saw him in Emma's film, he's now back in Glasgow.
In broad terms, what do these local election results tell us about the
general election result? First we have to remember what Theresa May
wants to achieve in the general election is a landslide, and winning
a landslide means you have to win big in terms of votes. The local
election results certainly suggest Theresa May is well on course to win
the general election, at least with four weeks to go, and of course
people could change their minds. We all agree the Conservatives were
double-digit figures ahead of Labour in these elections. However, whereas
the opinion polls on average at the moment suggest there is a 17 point
Conservative lead, and that definitely would deliver a
landslide, it seems the local election figures, at least in
England, are pointing to something close to an 11 point Conservative
lead. That increase would not necessarily deliver a landslide that
she wants. The truth is, the next four weeks are probably not about
who wins this election unless something dramatic changes, but
there is still a battle as to whether or not Theresa May achieves
her objective of winning a landslide. She has to win big. The
local elections as she is not sure to be there, and therefore she is
going to have to campaign hard. Equally, while Labour did have most
prospect of winning, they still at least at the goal of trying to keep
the conservative majority relatively low, and therefore the Parliamentary
Labour Party are alive and kicking. Interesting that the local election
results don't produce a landslide if replicated on June 8th, but when I
looked at when local elections had taken place a month before the
general election, it was in 1983 and 1987. The Tories did well in both
local elections in these years, but come the general election, they
added five points to their share of the vote. No reason it should happen
again, but if it did, that would take them into landslide territory.
Absolutely right, if they do five points better than the local
elections, they are in landslide territory. We have to remember, in
1983, the Labour Party ran an inept campaign and their support ballet.
In 1987, David Owen and David Steele could not keep to the same lines. --
their support fell away. That underlines how well the opposition
campaign in the next four weeks does potentially matter in terms of
Theresa May's ability to achieve their objective. It is worth
noticing in the opinion polls, two things have happened, first, Ukip
voters, a significant slice going to the Conservatives, which helped to
increase the Conservative leader in the bowels. But in the last week,
the Labour vote seems to have recovered. -- in the polls. So the
party is not that far short of what Ed Miliband got in 2015, so the
Conservative leader is back down to 16 or 17, as we started. So we
should not necessarily presume Labour are going to go backwards in
the way they did in 1983. I want to finish by asking if there are deeper
forces at work? Whether the referendum in this country is
producing a realignment in British politics. The Scottish referendum
has produced a kind of realignment in Scotland. And in a different way,
the Brexit referendum has produced a realignment in England and Wales. Do
you agree? You are quite right. Referendums are potentially
disruptive in Scotland, they helped to ensure the constitutional
question became the central issue, and the 45% who voted yes our been
faithful to the SNP since. Although the SNP put in a relatively
disappointing performance in Scotland on Thursday. Equally, south
of the border, on the leave side, in the past 12 months and particularly
the last few weeks, the Conservatives have corralled the
leave vote, about two thirds of those who voted leave now say they
will vote Conservative. Last summer, the figure was only 50%. On the
remain side, the vote is still fragmented. The reason why Theresa
May is in the strong position she is is not simply because the leave vote
has been realigned, but the remain vote has not. Thank you for joining
us. You can go through polls and wonder who is up and down, but I
wonder whether the Scottish and Brexit referendums have produced
fundamental changes. In Scotland, the real division now is between the
centre-left Nationalist party and the centre-right Unionist party.
That has had the consequence of squeezing out Labour in the
argument, never mind the Greens and the Lib Dems. In London, England,
Wales, the Brexit referendum seems to have produced a realignment of
the right to the Tories' advantage, and some trouble for the Labour blue
vote -- blue-collar vote. It works for the pro Brexit end of the
spectrum but not the other half. In the last century, we had people like
Roy Jenkins dreaming of and writing about the realignment of British
politics as though it could be consciously engineered, and in fact
what made it happen was just the calling of a referendum. It's not
something you can put about as a politician, it flows from below,
when the public begin to think of politics in terms of single issues,
dominant issues, such as leaving the European Union. Rather than a broad
spectrum designed by a political class. I wonder whether now Remain
have it in them to coalesce behind a single party. It doesn't look like
they can do it behind Labour. The Liberal Democrats are frankly too
small in Parliament to constitute that kind of force. The closest
thing to a powerful Remain party is the SNP which by definition has
limited appeal south of the border. It is hard. The realignment. We
don't know if it is permanent or how dramatic it will be, but there is
some kind of realignment going on. At the moment, it seems to be a
realignment that by and large is to the benefit of the Conservatives.
Without a doubt, and that can be directly attributed to the
disappearance of Ukip from the political landscape. I have been
saying since the referendum that I thought Ukip was finished. They
still seem to be staggering on under the illusion... Some people may have
picked up on Nigel Farage this morning saying that Ukip still had a
strong role to play until Brexit actually happens. But I think it's
very, very hard to convince the voters of that, because they feel
that, with the result of the referendum, that was Ukip's job
done. And those votes are not going to delay the party -- to the Labour
Party because of the flaws with Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, they are
shifting to the Tories. I agree. The key issue was the referendum. It has
produced a fundamental change that few predicted at the time it was
called. Most fundamental of all, it has brought about a unity in the
Conservative Party. With some exceptions, but they are now off
editing the Evening Standard and other things! This is now a party
united around Brexit. Since 1992, the Tories have been split over
Europe, at times fatally so. The referendum, in ways that David
Cameron did not anticipate, has brought about a united front for
this election. In a way, this is a sequel to the referendum, because
it's about Brexit but we still don't know what form Brexit is going to
take. By calling it early, Theresa May has in effect got another go at
a kind of Brexit referendum without knowing what Brexit is, with a
united Tory party behind her. We shall see if it is a blip or a
long-term trend in British politics. Now let's turn to Labour's big
campaign announcement today, and that was the promise of no
income tax rise for those earning less than ?80,000 -
which of course means those earning more than that could
face an increase. Here's Shadow Chancellor John
McDonell on the BBC earlier. What we are saying today, anyone
earning below ?80,000, we will guarantee you will not have an
increase in income tax, VAT or national insurance contributions.
For those above 80,000, we are asking them to pay a modest bit more
to fund our public services. A modest bit. You will see it will be
a modest increase. Talking about modest increases, so we can have a
society which we believe everyone shares the benefits of.
We're joined now by Shadow Justice Secretary Richard Burgon, in Leeds.
Mr McDonnell stressed that for those earning over 80,000, they would be
paying more but it would be modest. He used the word modest 45 times.
But there is only 1.2 million of them. -- 4-5 times. So that would
not raise much money. This is about the key part of this tax policy for
the many, not the few. We are saying that low earners and middle earners
won't be paying more tax under a Labour government, which is not a
policy the Conservatives have committed to yet. As John McDonnell
also said in his interview earlier, if there is a tax rise on the top 5%
of earners, earning over ?80,000, it would be a modest rise. I am trying
to work out what that would mean in terms of money. If it is too modest,
you don't raise much. What will happen is the Labour Party's
manifesto, published in the next couple of weeks, wilfully set out
and cost it. I can't make an announcement now. -- will fully set
out and cost it. Moving on to the local elections, Mr Corbyn says he
is closing the gap with the Tories. What evidence is there? John Curtis
just said there was an 11% gap in the results, Labour 11% behind. The
polls before that suggested Labour were anything up to 20% behind. Was
it a great day for Labour? Certainly not. Is there a lot to do between
now and June? Sure, but we are relishing every moment of that.
Comparing equivalent elections in 2013, the Tories increased their
share of the vote by 13%. You lost 2%. That's a net of 15%. In what way
is that closing the gap? We have gone down to 11 points behind. Am I
satisfied? Certainly not. Is Labour satisfied? Certainly not. A week is
a long time in politics, 4-5 weeks is even longer. The local elections
are over, the general election campaign is starting, and we want to
put out there the policies that will improve the lives of low and middle
income earners. And also many people looking to be well off as well. You
lost 133 seats in Scotland. Are you closing the gap in Scotland? The
journey back for Labour in Scotland, I always thought, wouldn't be an
easy one. Since the council election results and Scotland that we are
comparing this to, there has been an independence referendum and the
terrible results for Labour in the 2015 general election. So it is a
challenge, but one hundreds of thousands of Labour members are
determined to meet. That is why we're talking about bread and butter
policies to make people's lives better. These local elections took
place midtown. Normally mid-term was the worst time for a government. --
took place midterm. And the best for an opposition. That is a feature of
British politics. So why did you lose 382 councillors in a midterm
election? As Andy Burnham said when he gave his acceptance speech after
his terrific first ballot result win in Manchester, it was an evening of
mixed results for Labour. Generally bad, wasn't it? Why did you lose all
of these councillors midterm? It is not a welcome result for Labour, I
am not going to be deluded. But what I and the Labour Party are focused
on is the next four weeks. And how we are going to put across policies
like free school meals for primary school children, ?10 an hour minimum
wage, the pledge not to increase tax for low and middle earners, 95% of
earners in this country. And saving the NHS from privatisation and
funding it properly. These are just some of the policies, including by
the way a boost in carers' allowance, that will make the lives
of people in Britain better off. Labour are for the many, not for the
few. But people like from political parties aspiring to government is to
be united and to be singing from the same song sheet among the leaders.
You mentioned Andy Burnham. Why did he not join Mr Corbyn when Jeremy
Corbyn went to the rally in Manchester on Friday to celebrate
his victory? First of all, Andy Burnham did a radio interview
straight after his great victory in which he said Jeremy Corbyn helped
him to win votes in that election. Why didn't he turn up? As to the
reason Andy Burnham wasn't there at the meeting Jeremy was doing in
Manchester, it was because, I understand, Andy was booked into
celebrate his victory with his family that night. I don't begrudge
him that and hopefully you don't. The leader has made the effort to
travel to Manchester to celebrate one of the few victories you enjoyed
on Thursday, surely you would join the leader and celebrate together?
Well, I don't regard, and I am sure you don't, Andy Burnham a nice time
with his family... -- I don't begrudge. He made it clear Jeremy
Corbyn assisted him. I can see you are not convinced yourself. I am
convinced. The outgoing Labour leader in Derbyshire lost his seat
on Thursday, you lost Derbyshire, which was a surprise in itself... He
said that genuine party supporters said they were not voting Labour
while you have Jeremy Corbyn as leader. Are you hearing that on the
doorstep too? I have been knocking on hundreds of doors this week in my
constituency and elsewhere. And of course, you never get every single
voter thinking the leader of any political party is the greatest
thing since sliced bread. But it's only on a minority of doorsteps that
people are criticising the Labour leader. Most people aren't even
talking about these questions. Most people are talking about Jeremy
Corbyn's policies, free primary school meals, ?10 an hour minimum
wage. Also policies such as paternity pay, maternity pay and
sickness pay for the self-employed, that have been hard-pressed under
this government. So I don't recognise that pitch of despondency,
but I understand that in different areas, in local elections,
perspectives are different. That was Derbyshire. The outgoing Labour
leader of Nottinghamshire County Council said there was concern on
the doorstep about whether Jeremy Corbyn was the right person to lead
the Labour Party, and even Rotherham, loyal to Mr Corbyn, won
the mail contest in Liverpool, he said that the Labour leader was more
might on the doorstep. -- the mayor contest. Does that explain some of
the performance on Thursday? I am confident that in the next four
weeks, when we get into coverage on television, that people will see
further the kind of open leadership Jeremy provides. In contrast to
Theresa May's refusal to meet ordinary people. She came to my
constituency and I don't think that a single person who lives here. And
also she is ducking the chance to debate with Jeremy Corbyn on TV. She
should do it and let the people decide. I don't know why she won't.
Finally, the Labour mantra is that you are the party of the ordinary
people, why is it the case that among what advertisers call C2s, D
and E', how can you on the pulse of that social group, how can you do
that? Our policy is to assist, protect and improve the living
standards of people in those groups and our policy is to protect the
living standards of the majority... They do not seem to be convinced? We
have four weeks to convince them and I believe that we will. Thank you
for coming onto the programme. But the wooden spoon from Thursday's
elections undoubtedly went to Ukip. Four years ago the party
won its best ever local government performance,
but this time its support just Ukip's share of the vote
plunging by as much as 18 points, most obviously
benefiting the Conservatives. So is it all over for
the self-styled people's army? Well we're joined now
by the party's leader in the Welsh Assembly,
Neil Hamilton, he's in Cardiff. Neil Hamilton, welcome. Ukip
finished local elections gaining the same number of councillors as the
Rubbish Party, one. That sums up your prospects, doesn't
it? Rubbish? We have been around a long time and seemed that I'd go
out, go in again, we will keep calm and carry on. We are in a phoney
war, negotiations on Brexit have not started but what we know from
Theresa May is that in seven years, as Home Secretary and Prime
Minister, she has completely failed to control immigration which was one
of the great driving forces behind the Brexit result. I'm not really
looking for any great success in immigration from the Tories, and a
lot of people who have previously voted for Ukip will be back in our
part of the field again. They don't seem to care about that at the
moment, your party lost 147 council seats. You gain one. It is time to
shut up shop, isn't it? You are right, the voters are not focusing
on other domestic issues at the moment. They have made up their
minds going into these negotiations in Brussels, Theresa May, as Prime
Minister, needs as much support as she can get. I think they are wrong
in this respect, it would be better to have a cohort of Ukip MPs to back
her up. She was greatly helped by the intervention of Mr Juncker last
week as well, the stupidity in how the European Commission has tried to
bully the British government, in those circumstances the British
people will react in one way going the opposite way to what the
Brussels establishment one. She has been fortunate as an acute tactician
in having the election now. I struggle to see the way back for
your party. You aren't a threat to the Tories in the south. Ukip voters
are flocking to the Tories in the south. You don't threaten Labour in
the north. It is the Tories who threaten Labour now in the north.
There is no room to progress, is there? The reality will be is that
once we are back on the domestic agenda again, and the Brexit
negotiations are concluded, we will know what the outcome is. And the
focus will be on bread and butter issues. We have all sorts of
policies in our programme which other parties cannot match us on.
The talk is putting up taxes to help the health service, we would scrap
the foreign aid budget and put another ?8 billion in the health
service, no other party says that. These policies would be popular with
the ordinary working person. Is Paul Nuttall to blame on the meltdown of
what happened, no matter who is leader? These are cosmic forces
beyond the control of any individual at the moment, it is certainly not
Paul Nuttall's .com he's been in the job for six months and in half that
time he was fighting a by-election -- certainly not Paul Nuttall's
fault. We have two become more professional than we have been
recently. It has not been a brilliant year for Ukip one way or
another, as you know, but there are prospects, in future, that are very
rosy. I do not believe that the Tories will deliver on other
promises that they are now making. The Welsh assembly elections are not
until 2021, you are a member of that, but at that point you will not
have any MEPs, because we will be out on the timetable. With this
current showing he will have no end', you could be Ukip's most
senior elected representative. That would be a turnout for the books! --
no elected MPs. The Tories are not promoting the policies that I
believe them. You will see that in the Ukip manifesto when it is
shortly publish... Leaders talk mainly about the male genital
mutilation and is -- female and burqas. No, when the manifesto
launched, we have a lot of policies, I spoke moments ago about it, but
also on foreign aid. Scrapping green taxes, to cut people's electricity
bills by ?300 per year on average. There are a lot of popular policies
that we have. We will hear more from that in the weeks to come.
Paul Nuttall said "If the price of written leaving the year is a Tory
advance after taking up this patriarch course, it is a price that
Ukip is prepared to pay". That sounds like a surrender statement?
It is a statement of fact, the main agenda is to get out of the EU and
have full Brexit. That is why Ukip came into existence 20 years ago.
When it is achieved, we go back to the normal political battle lines.
Niall Hamilton in Cardiff, thank you very much for joining us.
It's just gone 11.35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
Hello, I'm Martyn Oates. we'll be talking about the French
Coming up on the Sunday Politics here in the South West: We may be
in a general election campaign, but that's not stopping a Tory
revolt against their own government's plan
We have every Conservative member of Parliament in Devon writing
to the Prime Minister saying something has to happen
And for the next 20 minutes, I'm joined by Labour Parliamentary
candidate Ben Bradshaw and Conservative
Welcome both of you to the programme.
On Tuesday, the Prime Minister was campaigning
I asked her whether a Conservative Government would replace
the hundreds of millions of pounds of EU funding Cornwall would have
received from 2020 on, if Britain were still a member.
Well, this is a really important election, it's the most crucial
election I think the country has faced in my lifetime,
because it is about how we take this country through Brexit and beyond,
how we ensure that we are building a stronger...
Yes, I'm going to come onto the funding issue.
But it is not just about the issue of funding, it is about a modern
industrial strategy, it is about ensuring
we are promoting and encouraging the growth of the economy
across the whole of the United Kingdom, including Cornwall.
As somebody said on twitter, that is in no then. We have guaranteed the
European funding... And tell 2020? Yes. The EU haven't guaranteed that
it continues beyond that date. If you look at the state of the Cornish
economy, and economic miracle aside... We are than a third tranche
of EU funding, and I am actually really angry about people talking
Cornwall down. Every sect to the Government's industrial strategy, we
will see the economy grow, and we can actually stand up for ourselves
in Carmel, rather than expecting hand-outs are the time. We will be
free of the shackles of the European union rules, money will be able to
be spent in Carmel that will actually enable the economy to come
up to the rest of the country. The Government presumably has the option
to say, we don't need Brussels to send money to Connell, we will do
it. I noticed the Prime Minister avoided your question. You weren't
one of their journalist locked out of the room and what was a calamity
is's calamitous visit for this by Minister. We know what the Tories
will face. With Labour invested the equivalent sum of money? The Tories
are heading for a landslide. If anybody in this country cares about
having decent book's decent opposition. They have to do whatever
they can. So that is in no as well. Thursday's local election results
made comforting reading for the Conservatives in all four
south west counties. The Tories retained control
of Dorset, Somerset and Devon county councils and replaced the Lib Dems
as the biggest party In a moment we'll be joined
by a Lib Dem to discuss what all this means for the General Election,
but first here's Ben Woolvin On his way up, but tinged
with disappointment. I just been told I'm
second, not first. The Conservative leader
of Devon County Council, miffed he didn't top
the winners' table. But his 2000-odd votes were more
than enough to secure his seat, and he sits supreme
with an increased majority. John Hart's personal victory
the envy of his fellow Conservative council leaders
in Dorset and Somerset... I ran a positive county
council campaign. ..who both lost their
seats to the Lib Dems. I leave a positive
legacy for Somerset. But elsewhere in Somerset
and Dorset, more gains for the Tories, leaving the party
in control of both counties. The Conservatives replaced
the Lib Dems as the biggest party in Cornwall and fancy their chances
of leading a coalition here. We are going to have to wait
for everyone to sit down, for the Conservative Party to sit
down, discuss where our numbers are, and just look at what is going
to be best for Cornwall, and who we are going to be
doing business with, if we are going to be
doing with anyone. Back in Devon, the fall
of another big name, this time a Lib Dem,
the former MP Richard Younger-Ross, who says his defeat in these local
elections means he won't be There was little sign of the fight
back the Lib Dems had hoped for, but for those in Cornwall
who remember the pain of 2015, I just can't believe
it, to be honest. I got 580-something
last time in 2013. Optimism in the Ukip ranks too,
despite the party's total wipe-out. I honestly don't believe
Ukip is finished. We will bounce back, but at
the moment the priority is Brexit. But a party that delivers
on its promise - we'll still be As for Labour, its Exeter stronghold
remained impregnable, a successful blends those
in Cornwall are desperate to taste. Of course, it is in the tea
room that you hear And plenty of talk today
about what this all this means I even overheard some Labour
activists saying they reckon they are in with a chance in St
Ives. I have been a Labour MP in Cornwall,
and we have a history, Is that going to happen
this time, though? I'll be honest, I think that is
unlikely, but you never know. But it's the Lib Dems who really
fancy their chances in west Cornwall, though these local results
projected onto the St Ives constituency don't give
the Lib Dems enough on an MP. Their fate could rest
in the hands of the Greens. And still rumours here of a deal
between the two parties. To discuss as we are joined by the
Lib Dem parliamentary candidate for a Yeovil Jo Roundell Green. He said
there is little sign of a Lib Dem revival. The reality as it was
pretty disastrous. An overall loss of eight seats. If I looked a
Yeovil, we really did very well. We went and with six and became it with
six. We have lost a leader, we have very pleased that John Osman has
been replaced, and that is good for Somerset. In Yeovil in itself, we
haven't really had any change. It doesn't make much difference. I can
see it as a bitter pill to see the leader goal, but the reality as it
was a great deal of anticipation, you saw the Lib Dem leader in the
south-east a lot. This could be a resurgence. Nothing like it. It is
neck and neck at the moment. The difference in the vote is 1% in
favour, and really feel we are idea to one. We are going to a nest
general election, and voting last week was a very good indicator that
people beginning to realise that the Lib Dems are still here, we are
fighting back. We are very very strong. Yeovil has always been a
very strong Liberal Democrat, with Paddy Ashdown and endeavoured laws,
we really strongly believe with our fantastic new candidates and county
council... How many seats do you think you will take in the
south-west? I think we could easily take three and possibly more. I
think people are very unsure, just talking to them on the doorstep you
can tell that they don't know what will happen. In the local election,
people aren't necessarily focused on the national picture. And the
general election the lobby, so if the go this way even and the local,
it bodes very badly. I don't think it does. I know we have a very good
chance in Yeovil, where we work extremely hard, and we need to fight
for what we have locally. Our for what we have locally. Our
aerospace engineer, R schools and NHS. Exeter again produced very good
Labour result. The party seems to Labour result. The party seems to
have a better the Midas touch there. Elsewhere, it was a terrible night
for Labour. I was delighted that we held all of our seats in Exeter,
although there was a swing to the although there was a swing to the
Conservatives so we are not at all, pleasing given the results elsewhere
were so bad fellas. Also, the results confirm what the opinion
polls show, which is that the Conservatives are heading for up
probable landslide. I think everybody fears that prospect. This
extreme hard Brexit, outside the EU, people need to do what ever they can
if they want a decent opposition after this election should be
rallying to those opposition parties. Sheryll will say, all, nor
we are not romping to victory. This is all about who covers the country
on the basis of these results, it is a mountain. I agree and that is what
I have just said. As you conceding defeat then? Do you think there is
little prospect... There is one opposition member of Parliament at
the moment. It is me and my seat is at risk. People have to vote for MPs
who can be an opposition in parliament. It is very bad for
democracy and by the health of our democracy given a huge challenge we
face of a Brexit, over school funding, not to have a single
opposition MP. It would be a disaster. The local election results
were encouraging, but we don't take anything for granted. This is why
you're talking it down... In message as if you want Theresa May and tag
team to have a strong and stable Government and to be fighting a
corner and getting the strongest possible deal for Brexit, you have
to vote for the Conservative Party. Don't leave it for others. Everyone
has to go out there to make sure we have a strong negotiator. It is so
important. This election is so important for our country, and we
can either have an strong negotiator in Brussels and Theresa May Jamie
Caven who will come away with a few crumbs that the EU are prepared to
offer those. -- Jeremy Corbin, who will come away. Everyone knows the
Conservatives are heading for a landslide. As you happy you that
Jeremy Corbyn will go to Brussels and negotiate follows? Are you
saying you have confidence and your leader. You have spoken up against
them for so long. You happy that time firing, his whole M is to
become an opposition leader. Isn't this the problem of the last
election. The Conservatives said if you vote for anyone else you will
get Ed Miliband. A pupil at focused on the national picture, and this is
the message that is pushing again. As like the record got stuck. Tim
Farron just wants to be an opposition. I think one has to be
realistic. There has to be a strong opposition, because every don't have
somebody else scrutinised in what Theresa May is doing, and I worry
very much. Can I finish? You need somebody to be watching what is
happening to scrutinise the checks and balances. We cannot have Theresa
May negotiating and not coming back, and other people watching what she
is doing to make sure this is what is best for our country. I also feel
very strongly behalf to do the day job. There are still gone to be
people who need their benefits, housing. We need to make sure our
schools and hospitals are getting the right amount of funding and that
rockets fell been continued. I want to move the discussion on to a more
specific issue. A reminder at the Bobby if the list of general
election candidates... candidates in Yeovil,
Exeter, South East Cornwall, and indeed every constituency,
on the BBC website. And if you're interested
in standing yourself, you've got until Thursday
when nominations close. The Government's controversial plans
to change school funding has aroused huge opposition
within the Conservative Party. Now, in the general election
campaign itself, Tory candidates, including seven hoping to be
re-elected as MPs in Devon, have attacked the policy and are calling
on the Prime Minister I do hereby declare that
Tony Inch is duly elected. After all the gladhanding,
payback time. If we're going to do
a formula that makes sense, we've got to have money that
actually increases in Devon, not that two thirds of the children
in Devon lose their funding. It's shaping up to be
one of the big issues. For years, councils in the region
have moaned about how little dosh A new school funding formula
that the Government was at pains to stress was fairer promised much,
but in reality many schools are now facing a far harder cash crisis.
If these proposals are adopted, we're going to have 15 primary
schools gaining, 20 losing out, and all the secondary schools
in East Devon losing out. This is clearly neither
fair nor acceptable. So, fresh from delivering
a local Tory landslide, grassroots Conservatives want
something in return. I think we will get more money
for schools, but how long it is going to take,
I don't know. It depends on the Secretary
of State for Education, and we understand there's a good
chance that that may change. Some think the scale of the Tory
victory in Thursday's local elections could
lead to complacency... Was a Remainer, and now
she is a Brexiteer. ..reducing the chances
of any extra school cash I think, really, in County,
the people have taken They haven't seen what's coming yet,
and the Conservatives don't even But they were rumours
last week of a U-turn, with 60 conservative backbench MPs
threatening a rebellion. We have every Conservative member
of Parliament in Devon writing to the Prime Minister
saying something has The formula that was produced,
the national formula, It's tough talk, but it
doesn't end there. In the hours after the local
landslide, another letter from a Devon headteacher urging
parents to put pressure on Tories I think Labour had made an
announcement, they will put more money into schools. I think it is 3
haul schools are suffering. I don't haul schools are suffering. I don't
think you addressing the issue of redistribution. The funding issue is
pretty marginal one compared with the overall cuts. Overall cuts are
7% at. My skills in Exeter are losing hundreds of thousands of
pounds a year now. There haven't they are teachers and classroom
assistants. The Conservatives in Parliament have had several
opportunities to vote against us. We have had debates and vote against
it, they have never done anything. Now that as an election, they are
may do something. Not about the overall cuts, just about before
Miller. There are 300,000 more pupils and good understanding
schools in the south-west and they were in 2010. ?3 billion has gone
into schools in the south-west through the pupil premium. You
saying they don't deserve any money? 3 million more apprenticeships have
been found since the Conservatives came in to Government. And Ben's
party could have done something to party could have done something to
address the failure of funding as you when they were in Government and
they didn't act. Somebody has to grasp the nettle. Somebody,... There
was a port in the Evening Standard that George Osborne treated out.
Tory candidates everywhere and unhappy. I have to say to you that I
met with Justin Greening and the last Parliament, we all met with a.
She hasn't made any firm announcement yet. There
consultation, and she wants to take consultation, and she wants to take
it very seriously before she makes an announcement. Do you agree with
the Devon candidate and former MPs who say this needs to change? I am
waiting to see what the announcement adds. But we know what it means. She
has consulted on their present proposals and hasn't made any
announcement. It is all about fairness. It is wrong that skills
and Westminster get twice as much as children and my constituency at the
moment. Something has to happen and when you realign something, you
always get winners and losers. You always get winners and losers. But
despite rejigging the funding formula when you are cutting the
budget is madness. By 300,000 pupils... Please let me and set
Martyn's question. They Conservative MPs at Westminster have had numerous
virginity is to stop this. They could have voted with us but never
has. They are pretending it is an issue because it as an election on.
It is actually the overall cuts to our schools. We invested and schools
and that is what they should be doing. Yes I know, at the present
proposals you right or wrong? I can't say yes or no because I
haven't seen the final proposals. We will have to leave it there.
Now our regular round-up of the political week in 60 seconds.
Parts of north and south-east Cornwall joined St Ives in voting
for new restrictions on second homes.
It would be nice to see families back in the village again.
Devon City Council moves forward with plans to give fishermen free
GPS-equipped life jackets, and the EU is been asked to put up
the hundreds and thousands of pounds needed to buy the next batch.
If we could take that pain away from everything by keeping
the fishermen alive, then the benefits are long-reaching
Labour's candidate in Camborne and Redruth at the last general
election, Michael Foster, threatens to stand against party
leader Jeremy Corbyn as an independent on June 8th.
Seagulls watching the PM's chips are hungry for some limelight...
The Conservatives really pushed back and destroyed the Liberal Democrats.
..while those feeding seagulls in parts of East Devon
There definitely needs to be something more stringent to stop
You're obviously both delighted to hear about the Seagull fine, but I
am keen to talk about the second homes issue. To be clear, this is
restricting new-build homes to permanent residents. Do you agree
with that? Very sensible in pockets when there's a problem, but of
course the main prizes as affordability. People cannot afford
to get on the property ladder, they can't afford the high level of
private rents. We need a much better housing market so local people can
afford both to buy and to rent. It is a problem and holiday areas, and
that is a good solution, but it has not gone to solve the overall
problem. I am really pleased that the neighbourhood plans have started
to come forward. It has taken too long. They were introduced in 2011,
I think it is right that we start looking at new belt so that people
aren't building second homes as new-builds and that will hopefully
help people to get on the housing ladder. The one thing that we must
do, which is where we started this discussion, is make sure the economy
in places like Connell improves so that wages improve and young people
can actually afford to get. You would need a massive improvement in
the economy to start closing the gap. Because we have gone for the
last 12 years relying on European hand-outs. Just quickly, then, do
you have any advice for Michael Foster standing against Jeremy
Corbyn? No. None at all. You wouldn't welcome the development?
People have got to do what they think is right and left, that is
what I always try to do. That's the Sunday Politics
in the South West. housing associations and investment,
but we have run out of time, thank you. Andrew.
Four weeks to go until polling day on the 8th of June, what will the
party strategies be for the remaining four weeks? Let's begin
with the Conservatives. Do they just try to continue to play it safe for
four weeks? Yes, with this important qualification. Theresa May Corp this
election to get her own personal mandate partly, partly because she
thought she would win big but to get her own personal mandate. Therefore,
she needs to define it. In her own interests and to do with
accountability to the country. So clearly, they will not take risks
when they are so far ahead in the polls. What they do say in the
manifesto matters in terms of the space that she has in
the coming years to define her leadership against David Cameron 's.
She is a free figure, partly on the basis of what she says as to how big
she wins. They cannot just play it safe and repeat their mantra of
strong and stable leadership, if she is going to claim her own mandate,
they need the top policy? Yes, and what is unusual about this is that
the manifesto matters far more because of what they need to do with
it afterwards, than in terms of whether it is going to win anybody
over now. Clearly, the strategy is yes, we do have two layout out a few
things, there are interesting debates as to whether, for example,
they will still commit to this ambition of reducing immigration to
the tens of thousands, we do not know the answer yet. It is a
question on whether she is setting herself up for difficulties later
on. It will be a short manifesto, I would venture to guess? It is in her
interests to be as noncommittal as possible, that argues for a short
manifesto but what does strike me about the Conservative campaign,
aside from the ambiguity on policy, is how personal it is. I think
Theresa May, in her most recent speech, referred to "My local
candidates", rather than Parliamentary candidates, very much
framing it as a presidential candidate in France or the USA. Not
a rational on her part. Everything I hear from the MPs on the ground and
the focus groups being done by the parties, is that a big chunk of the
population personally identify with her. If you can wrap up Middle
England into a physical object and embody it in a person, it would be
her. Although Jeremy Corbyn's unpopularity accounts for a big
slice of her popularity, she has done a good job of bonding with the
public. We never saw that coming! But you may well be right. That is
happening now. Labour say it wants the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell
to play a more prominent role in the Labour campaign, he was on The
Andrew Marr Show this morning and he was asked if he was a Marxist, he
denied that he was. It surprised me as I had seen tape from before
saying that he was proud of it. Let's look now and then. Are you a
Marxist? I believe that there is a lot to learn... Yes or no? I believe
that there is a lot to learn from reading capital, that is recommended
not only by me but measuring economists as well. I also believe
that in the long tradition of the Labour Party... We need to demand
systemic change. I am a Marxist. This is a classic crisis of the
economy. A capitalist crisis. I've been waiting for this for a
generation! That was from about four years ago. No, I'm not a Marxist,
yes, I am a Marxist... I've been waiting for the Marxist revolution
my whole life... Does this kind of thing matter? Yes, but in fairness,
I think he is a really good interviewee. The Shadow Cabinet have
untested figures in a national campaign. None have ever been
exposed at any level to a national media campaign that they are about
to experience. He is the best interviewee. In fairness to him,
when he gave that clip four years ago, I bet he never dream that he
would be in a senior front bench position. But the background is
clear. They are of the left, and I think they would all have described
it. Jeremy Corbyn would have done, he is close to being like Tony Benn.
There are about four Labour campaign is being fought in this election.
Their campaign, the old Shadow Cabinet, campaigning in
constituencies, but not identifying with that campaign. There is the
former Labour leader Tony Blair. Is it damaging? I think so, if they
could be damaged any further, I could see all of the Labour MPs with
their heads in their hands. What I am hearing from Labour MPs is that
there is not one of them who do not feel that they have a horrendous
battle on their hands. These will be very individual local campaigns,
where local MPs are winning despite the party leadership and not because
of it. Already, talk is turning to what happens next. Is there anyway
that Jeremy Corbyn, giving a horrendous set of general election
results as many anticipate, may stay on all the same? It is not clear
that even if the polls are right, that Mr Corbyn will go? John
McDonnell implied it might not be the case but previously, he said it
would be. What do you make of reports that the Labour strategy is
not, I cannot quite believe I am saying this, not to win seats but
maximise a share of the vote. If they do better than Ed Miliband with
30.5% of the vote, they believe they live to fight another day? Yes, it
reminded me of Tony Benn's speech after the 1983 election where they
said as bad as the Parliamentary defeat was there were 8 million
votes for socialism. A big section of public opinion voted for that
manifesto. I wonder whether that is Corbyn's supporters best chance of
holding onto power. Whether they can say that those votes are a platform
on which we can build. That said, even moderate Labour MPs and
desperate for a quick leadership contest. I hear a lot of them say
that they would like to leave it for one year. Maybe have Tom Watson as
an acting Labour leader. He would still have a mandate. Give the top
party a chance to regroup and get rid of some of its problems and
decide where it stands on policy. Most importantly, for potential
candidates to show what they are made of, rather than lurching
straight into an Yvette Cooper Coronation. 30 seconds on the
Liberal Democrats, their strategy was to mop up the Remain vote.
Uncertain about the Brexit party in demise. Ukip. The remain as have a
dilemma, the little Democrats are not a strong enough vessel with 89
MPs to risk all ongoing for them -- the Liberal Democrats. Labour do not
know where they stand on Brexit. There is not a robust alternative
vessel for what is now a pro-Brexit Conservative Party. At the moment.
Four weeks to go, but not for France...
France has been voting since early this morning, and we should get
a first estimate of who will be the country's next President
Just to warn you there are some flashing images coming up.
The choice in France is between a centre-left liberal
reformer Emmanuel Macron and a right-wing nationalist
Marine Le Pen - both have been casting their votes this morning.
The two candidates topped a field of 11 presidential
hopefuls in the first round of elections last month.
The campaign has been marked by its unpredictability,
and in a final twist on Friday evening, just before
campaigning officially ended, Mr Macron's En Marche! group said
it had been the victim of a "massive" hack,
with a trove of documents released online.
The Macron team said real documents were mixed up with fake ones,
and electoral authorities warned media and the public that spreading
details of the leaks would breach strict election rules.
I'm joined now from Paris by the journalist
As I left Paris recently, everybody told me that there was the consensus
that Mr Macron would win, and win pretty comfortable you. Is there any
reason to doubt that? -- pretty comfortably. I don't think so, there
have been so many people left and right, former candidates who have
decided that it was more important to vote for Macron, even if it was
agreed with him, then run the risk of having Marine Le Pen as
president. I think the spread is now 20 points, 60% to Macron, 40% to Le
Pen. So outside of the margin of error that it would take something
huge for this to be observed. If the polls are right and Mr Macron wins,
he has to put together a government, and in May there is a Coronation,
then he faces parliamentary elections in June and could face a
fractured parliament where he does not have a clear majority for his
reforms. He could then faced difficulties in getting his
programme through? I think that right now, with how things are
looking, considering you have one half of the Republican party, the
Conservative Party, they are making clear sides, not only that they want
to support Macron but are supporting him actively. It means looking at
the equivalent of the German party, the great coalition. Depending on
how many seats established parties keep in the house committee may very
well have a Republican Prime Minister, rather than having an
adversarial MP, he may have someone who is relatively unknown outside of
France, and a young woman. Contended that lost the Parez mayorship three
years ago. She is a scientist and has been secretary of state. She
would be an interesting coalition Prime Minister. Finally, Marine Le
Pen, if she goes down to defeat a night, does she have the stomach and
ambition, and the energy, to try it all again in 2022? She has all of
that. The question is, would they let her? How badly would she lose?
Her niece, now 27, a hard-working and steady person, unlike Marine Le
Pen, who flunked her do paid -- debate, her niece may decide that
2022 is her turn. Yet another Le Pen! All right, we will see. Just
five years to wait, but only a few hours until the results of the
election tonight. And we will get the exit polls here
on the BBC. Given the exit polls will give as a pretty fair
indication of what the result is going to be tonight. That will be on
BBC news. That's all for today. The Daily Politics will cover every
turn of this election campaign, And we're back here on BBC One
at our usual time Next Sunday. Remember - if it's Sunday,
it's the Sunday Politics. Our crack team of experts
use pioneering research ..to how to help your pet
lose weight. She's got right dangly earrings
with sausages on them. Celebrate one of Britain's
greatest comedy heroes with Oh, what a lovely thing to say!
I'm filling up again now. Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!
Ooh, in't she wonderful? If you're not careful, you'll end up
playing this sexy little blonde The East End girl who became the
nation's favourite. We don't know what it is,
but she definitely has... Something.
Andrew Neil and Lucie Fisher are joined by Labour's shadow justice secretary Richard Burgon and Ukip's Neil Hamilton to discuss the local election results. On the political panel are Isabel Oakeshott, Steve Richards and Janan Ganesh.