07/05/2017 Sunday Politics South West


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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.


The local election results made grim reading for Labour.


With just a month to go until the general election,


will promising to rule out tax rises for all but the well off help


The Conservatives have their own announcement on mental health,


as they strain every sinew to insist they don't think they've got


But is there still really all to play for?


And tonight we will find out who is the next


President of France - Emmanuel Macron or Marine Le Pen -


In the South West: ended with a hack attack


We may be in a general election campaign, but that's not


stopping a Tory revolt against the Government's plan


potential impact in marginals next month. If Ukip support continues to


evaporate... And joining me for all of that,


three journalists ready to analyse the week's politics


with all the forensic focus of Diane Abbott


preparing for an interview, and all the relaxed,


slogan-free banter of Theresa May It's Janan Ganesh, Isabel Oakeshott


and Steve Richards. So, the Conservatives are promising,


if re-elected, to change mental health laws in England and Wales


to tackle discrimination, and they're promising 10,000 more


staff working in NHS mental health treatment in England by 2020 -


although how that's to be Here's Health Secretary


Jeremy Hunt speaking There is a lot of new


money going into it. In January, we said we were going


to put an extra ?1 billion Does this come from other parts


of the NHS, or is it No, it is new money


going into the NHS It's not just of course money,


it's having the people who deliver these jobs,


which is why we need Well, we're joined now from Norwich


by the Liberal Democrat health This weekend, they've launched


their own health announcement, promising a 1% rise on every income


tax band to fund the NHS. Do you welcome the Conservatives


putting mental health onto the campaign agenda in the way that they


have? I welcome it being on the campaign agenda but I do fear that


the announcement is built on thin air. You raised the issue at the


start about the 10,000 extra staff, and questions surrounding how it


would be paid for. There is no additional money on what they have


already announced for the NHS. We know it falls massively short on the


expectation of the funding gap which, by 2020, is likely to be


about 30 billion. That is not disputed now. Anyone outside of the


government, wherever you are on the political spectrum, knows the money


going in is simply not enough. So, rather like the claim that they


would add 5000 GPs to the workforce by 2020, that is not on target.


Latest figures show a fall in the number of GPs. They make these


claims, but I'm afraid they are without substance, unless they are


prepared to put money behind it. Your party's solution to the money


problem is to put a 1% percentage point on all of the bands of income


tax to raise more money 20-45. Is that unfair? Most pensioners who


consume 40% of NHS spending, but over 65s only pay about 20% of


income tax. Are you penalising the younger generations for the health


care of an older generation? It is the first step in what we are


describing as a 5-point recovery plan for the NHS and care system.


So, for what is available to us now, it seems to be the fairest way of


bringing in extra resources, income tax is progressive, and is based on


your ability to pay for your average British worker. It would be ?3 per


week which is the cost of less than two cups of coffee per week. In the


longer run, we say that by the end of the next Parliament, we would be


able to introduce a dedicated NHS and care tax. Based, probably,


around a reformed national insurance system, so it becomes a dedicated


NHS and care tax. Interestingly, the former permanent secretary of the


Treasury, Nick MacPherson, said clearly that this idea merits


further consideration which is the first time anyone for the Treasury


has bought into the idea of this. Let me ask you this. You say it is a


small amount of tax that people on average incomes will have to pay


extra. We are talking about people who have seen no real increases to


their income since 2007. They have been struggling to stand still in


terms of their own pay, but you are going to add to their tax, and as I


said earlier, most of the health care money will then go to


pensioners whose incomes have risen by 15%. I'm interested in the


fairness of this redistribution? Bearing in mind first of all,


Andrew, that the raising of the tax threshold that the Liberal Democrats


pushed through in the coalition increased the effective pay in your


pocket for basic rate taxpayers by about ?1000. We are talking about a


tiny fraction of that. I suppose that you do have to ask, all of us


in this country need to ask ourselves this question... Are we


prepared to pay, in terms of the average worker, about ?3 extra per


week to give us a guarantee that when our loved ones need that care,


in their hour of need, perhaps suspected cancer, that care will be


available for them? I have heard two cases recently brought my attention.


An elderly couple, the wife has a very bad hip. They could not allow


the weight to continue. She was told that she would need to wait 26


weeks, she was in acute pain. They then deduct paying ?20,000 for


private treatment to circumvent waiting time. They hated doing it,


because they did not want to jump the queue. But that is what is


increasingly happening. Sorry to interrupt, Norman Lamb comedy make


very good points but we are short on time today. One final question, it


looks like you might have the chance to do any of this, I'm told the best


you can hope to do internally is to double the number of seats you have,


which would only take you to 18. Do you think that promising to raise


people's income tax, even those on average earnings, is a vote winner?


I think the people in this country are crying out for politicians to be


straight and tenet as it is. At the moment we heading towards a


Conservative landslide... -- tell it as it is. But do we want a 1-party


state? We are electing a government not only to deal with the crucial


Brexit negotiations, but oversee the stewardship of the NHS and funding


of our schools, all of these critical issues. We need an


effective opposition and with the Labour Party having taken itself off


stage, the Liberal Democrats need to provide an effective opposition.


Norman Lamb, thank you for joining us this morning. Thank you.


Labour and Tories are anxious to stress the general election


result is not a foregone conclusion, whatever the polls say.


Order you just heard Norman Lamb say there that he thought the


Conservatives were heading for a landslide...


But did Thursday's dramatic set of local election results


in England, Scotland and Wales give us a better idea of how the country


Here's Emma Vardy with a behind-the-scenes look at how


Good morning, it's seven o'clock on Friday, May 5th...


The dawn of another results day. Anticipation hung in the air.


Early results from the local elections in England suggest


there's been a substantial swing from Labour to the Conservatives.


While the pros did their thing, I needed breakfast.


Don't tell anyone, but I'm going to pinch a sausage.


The overnight counts had delivered successes for the Tories.


But with most councils only getting started,


there was plenty of action still to come.


It's not quite the night of Labour's nightmares.


There's enough mixed news in Wales, for example -


looks like they're about to hold Cardiff - that they'll try and put


But in really simple terms, four weeks from a general election,


the Tories are going forward and Labour are going backwards.


How does it compare being in here to doing the telly?


Huw, how do you prepare yourself for a long day of results, then?


We're not even on air yet, as you can see, and already


in Tory HQ this morning, there's a kind of, "Oh,


I'm scared this will make people think the election's just


I think leave it like that - perfect.


I want the Laura look. This is really good, isn't it?


Usually, we're in here for the Daily Politics.


But it's been transformed for the Election Results programme.


But hours went by without Ukip winning a single seat.


The joke going around Lincolnshire County Council today


from the Conservatives is that the Tories have eaten


We will rebrand and come back strong.


Morale, I think, is inevitably going to take a bit of a tumble.


Particularly if Theresa May starts backsliding on Brexit.


And then I think we will be totally reinvigorated.


There are a lot of good people in Ukip and I wouldn't


want to say anything unkind, but we all know it's over.


Ukip press officer. Difficult job.


Ukip weren't the only ones putting a brave face on it.


Labour were experiencing their own disaster day too,


losing hundreds of seats and seven councils.


If the result is what these results appear to indicate,


Can we have a quick word for the Sunday Politics?


A quick question for Sunday Politics - how are you feeling?


Downhearted or fired up for June? Fired up, absolutely fired up.


He's fired up. We're going to go out there...


We cannot go on with another five years of this.


How's it been for you today? Tiring.


It always is, but I love elections, I really enjoy them.


Yes, you know, obviously we're disappointed at some of the results,


it's been a mixed bag, but some opinion polls


and commentators predicted we'd be wiped out - we haven't.


As for the Lib Dems, not the resurgence they hoped for,


After a dead heat in Northumberland, the control of a whole council came


The section of England in which we had elections yesterday


was the section of England that was most likely to vote Leave.


When you go to sleep at night, do you just have election results


The answer is if that's still happening, I don't get to sleep.


There we go. Maybe practice some yoga...


Thank you very much but I have one here.


With the introduction of six regional mayors,


Labour's Andy Burnham became Mr Manchester.


But by the time Corbyn came to celebrate, the new mayor


We want you to stay for a second because I've got some


I used to present news, as you probably know.


I used to present BBC Breakfast in the morning.


The SNP had notable successes, ending 40 years of Labour


What did you prefer - presenting or politics?


And it certainly had been a hard day at the office for some.


Ukip's foothold in local government was all but wiped out,


leaving the Conservatives with their best local


So another election results day draws to a close.


But don't worry, we'll be doing it all again in five weeks' time.


For now, though, that's your lot. Off you go.


Now let's look at some of Thursday's results in a little more detail,


and what they might mean for the wider fortunes


In England, there were elections for 34 councils.


The Conservatives took control of ten of them,


gaining over 300 seats, while Labour sustained


While the Lib Dems lost 28 seats, Ukip came close to extinction,


and can now boast of only one councillor in the whole of England.


In Scotland, the big story was Labour losing


a third of their seats, and control of three councils -


while the Tories more than doubled their number of councillors.


In Wales, both the Conservatives and Plaid Cymru made gains,


There was some encouraging news for Jeremy Corbyn's party


after Liverpool and Manchester both elected Labour mayors,


although the Tories narrowly won the West Midlands mayoral race.


We're joined now by who else but elections expert John Curtice.


You saw him in Emma's film, he's now back in Glasgow.


In broad terms, what do these local election results tell us about the


general election result? First we have to remember what Theresa May


wants to achieve in the general election is a landslide, and winning


a landslide means you have to win big in terms of votes. The local


election results certainly suggest Theresa May is well on course to win


the general election, at least with four weeks to go, and of course


people could change their minds. We all agree the Conservatives were


double-digit figures ahead of Labour in these elections. However, whereas


the opinion polls on average at the moment suggest there is a 17 point


Conservative lead, and that definitely would deliver a


landslide, it seems the local election figures, at least in


England, are pointing to something close to an 11 point Conservative


lead. That increase would not necessarily deliver a landslide that


she wants. The truth is, the next four weeks are probably not about


who wins this election unless something dramatic changes, but


there is still a battle as to whether or not Theresa May achieves


her objective of winning a landslide. She has to win big. The


local elections as she is not sure to be there, and therefore she is


going to have to campaign hard. Equally, while Labour did have most


prospect of winning, they still at least at the goal of trying to keep


the conservative majority relatively low, and therefore the Parliamentary


Labour Party are alive and kicking. Interesting that the local election


results don't produce a landslide if replicated on June 8th, but when I


looked at when local elections had taken place a month before the


general election, it was in 1983 and 1987. The Tories did well in both


local elections in these years, but come the general election, they


added five points to their share of the vote. No reason it should happen


again, but if it did, that would take them into landslide territory.


Absolutely right, if they do five points better than the local


elections, they are in landslide territory. We have to remember, in


1983, the Labour Party ran an inept campaign and their support ballet.


In 1987, David Owen and David Steele could not keep to the same lines. --


their support fell away. That underlines how well the opposition


campaign in the next four weeks does potentially matter in terms of


Theresa May's ability to achieve their objective. It is worth


noticing in the opinion polls, two things have happened, first, Ukip


voters, a significant slice going to the Conservatives, which helped to


increase the Conservative leader in the bowels. But in the last week,


the Labour vote seems to have recovered. -- in the polls. So the


party is not that far short of what Ed Miliband got in 2015, so the


Conservative leader is back down to 16 or 17, as we started. So we


should not necessarily presume Labour are going to go backwards in


the way they did in 1983. I want to finish by asking if there are deeper


forces at work? Whether the referendum in this country is


producing a realignment in British politics. The Scottish referendum


has produced a kind of realignment in Scotland. And in a different way,


the Brexit referendum has produced a realignment in England and Wales. Do


you agree? You are quite right. Referendums are potentially


disruptive in Scotland, they helped to ensure the constitutional


question became the central issue, and the 45% who voted yes our been


faithful to the SNP since. Although the SNP put in a relatively


disappointing performance in Scotland on Thursday. Equally, south


of the border, on the leave side, in the past 12 months and particularly


the last few weeks, the Conservatives have corralled the


leave vote, about two thirds of those who voted leave now say they


will vote Conservative. Last summer, the figure was only 50%. On the


remain side, the vote is still fragmented. The reason why Theresa


May is in the strong position she is is not simply because the leave vote


has been realigned, but the remain vote has not. Thank you for joining


us. You can go through polls and wonder who is up and down, but I


wonder whether the Scottish and Brexit referendums have produced


fundamental changes. In Scotland, the real division now is between the


centre-left Nationalist party and the centre-right Unionist party.


That has had the consequence of squeezing out Labour in the


argument, never mind the Greens and the Lib Dems. In London, England,


Wales, the Brexit referendum seems to have produced a realignment of


the right to the Tories' advantage, and some trouble for the Labour blue


vote -- blue-collar vote. It works for the pro Brexit end of the


spectrum but not the other half. In the last century, we had people like


Roy Jenkins dreaming of and writing about the realignment of British


politics as though it could be consciously engineered, and in fact


what made it happen was just the calling of a referendum. It's not


something you can put about as a politician, it flows from below,


when the public begin to think of politics in terms of single issues,


dominant issues, such as leaving the European Union. Rather than a broad


spectrum designed by a political class. I wonder whether now Remain


have it in them to coalesce behind a single party. It doesn't look like


they can do it behind Labour. The Liberal Democrats are frankly too


small in Parliament to constitute that kind of force. The closest


thing to a powerful Remain party is the SNP which by definition has


limited appeal south of the border. It is hard. The realignment. We


don't know if it is permanent or how dramatic it will be, but there is


some kind of realignment going on. At the moment, it seems to be a


realignment that by and large is to the benefit of the Conservatives.


Without a doubt, and that can be directly attributed to the


disappearance of Ukip from the political landscape. I have been


saying since the referendum that I thought Ukip was finished. They


still seem to be staggering on under the illusion... Some people may have


picked up on Nigel Farage this morning saying that Ukip still had a


strong role to play until Brexit actually happens. But I think it's


very, very hard to convince the voters of that, because they feel


that, with the result of the referendum, that was Ukip's job


done. And those votes are not going to delay the party -- to the Labour


Party because of the flaws with Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, they are


shifting to the Tories. I agree. The key issue was the referendum. It has


produced a fundamental change that few predicted at the time it was


called. Most fundamental of all, it has brought about a unity in the


Conservative Party. With some exceptions, but they are now off


editing the Evening Standard and other things! This is now a party


united around Brexit. Since 1992, the Tories have been split over


Europe, at times fatally so. The referendum, in ways that David


Cameron did not anticipate, has brought about a united front for


this election. In a way, this is a sequel to the referendum, because


it's about Brexit but we still don't know what form Brexit is going to


take. By calling it early, Theresa May has in effect got another go at


a kind of Brexit referendum without knowing what Brexit is, with a


united Tory party behind her. We shall see if it is a blip or a


long-term trend in British politics. Now let's turn to Labour's big


campaign announcement today, and that was the promise of no


income tax rise for those earning less than ?80,000 -


which of course means those earning more than that could


face an increase. Here's Shadow Chancellor John


McDonell on the BBC earlier. What we are saying today, anyone


earning below ?80,000, we will guarantee you will not have an


increase in income tax, VAT or national insurance contributions.


For those above 80,000, we are asking them to pay a modest bit more


to fund our public services. A modest bit. You will see it will be


a modest increase. Talking about modest increases, so we can have a


society which we believe everyone shares the benefits of.


We're joined now by Shadow Justice Secretary Richard Burgon, in Leeds.


Mr McDonnell stressed that for those earning over 80,000, they would be


paying more but it would be modest. He used the word modest 45 times.


But there is only 1.2 million of them. -- 4-5 times. So that would


not raise much money. This is about the key part of this tax policy for


the many, not the few. We are saying that low earners and middle earners


won't be paying more tax under a Labour government, which is not a


policy the Conservatives have committed to yet. As John McDonnell


also said in his interview earlier, if there is a tax rise on the top 5%


of earners, earning over ?80,000, it would be a modest rise. I am trying


to work out what that would mean in terms of money. If it is too modest,


you don't raise much. What will happen is the Labour Party's


manifesto, published in the next couple of weeks, wilfully set out


and cost it. I can't make an announcement now. -- will fully set


out and cost it. Moving on to the local elections, Mr Corbyn says he


is closing the gap with the Tories. What evidence is there? John Curtis


just said there was an 11% gap in the results, Labour 11% behind. The


polls before that suggested Labour were anything up to 20% behind. Was


it a great day for Labour? Certainly not. Is there a lot to do between


now and June? Sure, but we are relishing every moment of that.


Comparing equivalent elections in 2013, the Tories increased their


share of the vote by 13%. You lost 2%. That's a net of 15%. In what way


is that closing the gap? We have gone down to 11 points behind. Am I


satisfied? Certainly not. Is Labour satisfied? Certainly not. A week is


a long time in politics, 4-5 weeks is even longer. The local elections


are over, the general election campaign is starting, and we want to


put out there the policies that will improve the lives of low and middle


income earners. And also many people looking to be well off as well. You


lost 133 seats in Scotland. Are you closing the gap in Scotland? The


journey back for Labour in Scotland, I always thought, wouldn't be an


easy one. Since the council election results and Scotland that we are


comparing this to, there has been an independence referendum and the


terrible results for Labour in the 2015 general election. So it is a


challenge, but one hundreds of thousands of Labour members are


determined to meet. That is why we're talking about bread and butter


policies to make people's lives better. These local elections took


place midtown. Normally mid-term was the worst time for a government. --


took place midterm. And the best for an opposition. That is a feature of


British politics. So why did you lose 382 councillors in a midterm


election? As Andy Burnham said when he gave his acceptance speech after


his terrific first ballot result win in Manchester, it was an evening of


mixed results for Labour. Generally bad, wasn't it? Why did you lose all


of these councillors midterm? It is not a welcome result for Labour, I


am not going to be deluded. But what I and the Labour Party are focused


on is the next four weeks. And how we are going to put across policies


like free school meals for primary school children, ?10 an hour minimum


wage, the pledge not to increase tax for low and middle earners, 95% of


earners in this country. And saving the NHS from privatisation and


funding it properly. These are just some of the policies, including by


the way a boost in carers' allowance, that will make the lives


of people in Britain better off. Labour are for the many, not for the


few. But people like from political parties aspiring to government is to


be united and to be singing from the same song sheet among the leaders.


You mentioned Andy Burnham. Why did he not join Mr Corbyn when Jeremy


Corbyn went to the rally in Manchester on Friday to celebrate


his victory? First of all, Andy Burnham did a radio interview


straight after his great victory in which he said Jeremy Corbyn helped


him to win votes in that election. Why didn't he turn up? As to the


reason Andy Burnham wasn't there at the meeting Jeremy was doing in


Manchester, it was because, I understand, Andy was booked into


celebrate his victory with his family that night. I don't begrudge


him that and hopefully you don't. The leader has made the effort to


travel to Manchester to celebrate one of the few victories you enjoyed


on Thursday, surely you would join the leader and celebrate together?


Well, I don't regard, and I am sure you don't, Andy Burnham a nice time


with his family... -- I don't begrudge. He made it clear Jeremy


Corbyn assisted him. I can see you are not convinced yourself. I am


convinced. The outgoing Labour leader in Derbyshire lost his seat


on Thursday, you lost Derbyshire, which was a surprise in itself... He


said that genuine party supporters said they were not voting Labour


while you have Jeremy Corbyn as leader. Are you hearing that on the


doorstep too? I have been knocking on hundreds of doors this week in my


constituency and elsewhere. And of course, you never get every single


voter thinking the leader of any political party is the greatest


thing since sliced bread. But it's only on a minority of doorsteps that


people are criticising the Labour leader. Most people aren't even


talking about these questions. Most people are talking about Jeremy


Corbyn's policies, free primary school meals, ?10 an hour minimum


wage. Also policies such as paternity pay, maternity pay and


sickness pay for the self-employed, that have been hard-pressed under


this government. So I don't recognise that pitch of despondency,


but I understand that in different areas, in local elections,


perspectives are different. That was Derbyshire. The outgoing Labour


leader of Nottinghamshire County Council said there was concern on


the doorstep about whether Jeremy Corbyn was the right person to lead


the Labour Party, and even Rotherham, loyal to Mr Corbyn, won


the mail contest in Liverpool, he said that the Labour leader was more


might on the doorstep. -- the mayor contest. Does that explain some of


the performance on Thursday? I am confident that in the next four


weeks, when we get into coverage on television, that people will see


further the kind of open leadership Jeremy provides. In contrast to


Theresa May's refusal to meet ordinary people. She came to my


constituency and I don't think that a single person who lives here. And


also she is ducking the chance to debate with Jeremy Corbyn on TV. She


should do it and let the people decide. I don't know why she won't.


Finally, the Labour mantra is that you are the party of the ordinary


people, why is it the case that among what advertisers call C2s, D


and E', how can you on the pulse of that social group, how can you do


that? Our policy is to assist, protect and improve the living


standards of people in those groups and our policy is to protect the


living standards of the majority... They do not seem to be convinced? We


have four weeks to convince them and I believe that we will. Thank you


for coming onto the programme. But the wooden spoon from Thursday's


elections undoubtedly went to Ukip. Four years ago the party


won its best ever local government performance,


but this time its support just Ukip's share of the vote


plunging by as much as 18 points, most obviously


benefiting the Conservatives. So is it all over for


the self-styled people's army? Well we're joined now


by the party's leader in the Welsh Assembly,


Neil Hamilton, he's in Cardiff. Neil Hamilton, welcome. Ukip


finished local elections gaining the same number of councillors as the


Rubbish Party, one. That sums up your prospects, doesn't


it? Rubbish? We have been around a long time and seemed that I'd go


out, go in again, we will keep calm and carry on. We are in a phoney


war, negotiations on Brexit have not started but what we know from


Theresa May is that in seven years, as Home Secretary and Prime


Minister, she has completely failed to control immigration which was one


of the great driving forces behind the Brexit result. I'm not really


looking for any great success in immigration from the Tories, and a


lot of people who have previously voted for Ukip will be back in our


part of the field again. They don't seem to care about that at the


moment, your party lost 147 council seats. You gain one. It is time to


shut up shop, isn't it? You are right, the voters are not focusing


on other domestic issues at the moment. They have made up their


minds going into these negotiations in Brussels, Theresa May, as Prime


Minister, needs as much support as she can get. I think they are wrong


in this respect, it would be better to have a cohort of Ukip MPs to back


her up. She was greatly helped by the intervention of Mr Juncker last


week as well, the stupidity in how the European Commission has tried to


bully the British government, in those circumstances the British


people will react in one way going the opposite way to what the


Brussels establishment one. She has been fortunate as an acute tactician


in having the election now. I struggle to see the way back for


your party. You aren't a threat to the Tories in the south. Ukip voters


are flocking to the Tories in the south. You don't threaten Labour in


the north. It is the Tories who threaten Labour now in the north.


There is no room to progress, is there? The reality will be is that


once we are back on the domestic agenda again, and the Brexit


negotiations are concluded, we will know what the outcome is. And the


focus will be on bread and butter issues. We have all sorts of


policies in our programme which other parties cannot match us on.


The talk is putting up taxes to help the health service, we would scrap


the foreign aid budget and put another ?8 billion in the health


service, no other party says that. These policies would be popular with


the ordinary working person. Is Paul Nuttall to blame on the meltdown of


what happened, no matter who is leader? These are cosmic forces


beyond the control of any individual at the moment, it is certainly not


Paul Nuttall's .com he's been in the job for six months and in half that


time he was fighting a by-election -- certainly not Paul Nuttall's


fault. We have two become more professional than we have been


recently. It has not been a brilliant year for Ukip one way or


another, as you know, but there are prospects, in future, that are very


rosy. I do not believe that the Tories will deliver on other


promises that they are now making. The Welsh assembly elections are not


until 2021, you are a member of that, but at that point you will not


have any MEPs, because we will be out on the timetable. With this


current showing he will have no end', you could be Ukip's most


senior elected representative. That would be a turnout for the books! --


no elected MPs. The Tories are not promoting the policies that I


believe them. You will see that in the Ukip manifesto when it is


shortly publish... Leaders talk mainly about the male genital


mutilation and is -- female and burqas. No, when the manifesto


launched, we have a lot of policies, I spoke moments ago about it, but


also on foreign aid. Scrapping green taxes, to cut people's electricity


bills by ?300 per year on average. There are a lot of popular policies


that we have. We will hear more from that in the weeks to come.


Paul Nuttall said "If the price of written leaving the year is a Tory


advance after taking up this patriarch course, it is a price that


Ukip is prepared to pay". That sounds like a surrender statement?


It is a statement of fact, the main agenda is to get out of the EU and


have full Brexit. That is why Ukip came into existence 20 years ago.


When it is achieved, we go back to the normal political battle lines.


Niall Hamilton in Cardiff, thank you very much for joining us.


It's just gone 11.35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.


We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now


Hello, I'm Martyn Oates. we'll be talking about the French


Coming up on the Sunday Politics here in the South West: We may be


in a general election campaign, but that's not stopping a Tory


revolt against their own government's plan


We have every Conservative member of Parliament in Devon writing


to the Prime Minister saying something has to happen


And for the next 20 minutes, I'm joined by Labour Parliamentary


candidate Ben Bradshaw and Conservative


Welcome both of you to the programme.


On Tuesday, the Prime Minister was campaigning


I asked her whether a Conservative Government would replace


the hundreds of millions of pounds of EU funding Cornwall would have


received from 2020 on, if Britain were still a member.


Well, this is a really important election, it's the most crucial


election I think the country has faced in my lifetime,


because it is about how we take this country through Brexit and beyond,


how we ensure that we are building a stronger...


Yes, I'm going to come onto the funding issue.


But it is not just about the issue of funding, it is about a modern


industrial strategy, it is about ensuring


we are promoting and encouraging the growth of the economy


across the whole of the United Kingdom, including Cornwall.


As somebody said on twitter, that is in no then. We have guaranteed the


European funding... And tell 2020? Yes. The EU haven't guaranteed that


it continues beyond that date. If you look at the state of the Cornish


economy, and economic miracle aside... We are than a third tranche


of EU funding, and I am actually really angry about people talking


Cornwall down. Every sect to the Government's industrial strategy, we


will see the economy grow, and we can actually stand up for ourselves


in Carmel, rather than expecting hand-outs are the time. We will be


free of the shackles of the European union rules, money will be able to


be spent in Carmel that will actually enable the economy to come


up to the rest of the country. The Government presumably has the option


to say, we don't need Brussels to send money to Connell, we will do


it. I noticed the Prime Minister avoided your question. You weren't


one of their journalist locked out of the room and what was a calamity


is's calamitous visit for this by Minister. We know what the Tories


will face. With Labour invested the equivalent sum of money? The Tories


are heading for a landslide. If anybody in this country cares about


having decent book's decent opposition. They have to do whatever


they can. So that is in no as well. Thursday's local election results


made comforting reading for the Conservatives in all four


south west counties. The Tories retained control


of Dorset, Somerset and Devon county councils and replaced the Lib Dems


as the biggest party In a moment we'll be joined


by a Lib Dem to discuss what all this means for the General Election,


but first here's Ben Woolvin On his way up, but tinged


with disappointment. I just been told I'm


second, not first. The Conservative leader


of Devon County Council, miffed he didn't top


the winners' table. But his 2000-odd votes were more


than enough to secure his seat, and he sits supreme


with an increased majority. John Hart's personal victory


the envy of his fellow Conservative council leaders


in Dorset and Somerset... I ran a positive county


council campaign. ..who both lost their


seats to the Lib Dems. I leave a positive


legacy for Somerset. But elsewhere in Somerset


and Dorset, more gains for the Tories, leaving the party


in control of both counties. The Conservatives replaced


the Lib Dems as the biggest party in Cornwall and fancy their chances


of leading a coalition here. We are going to have to wait


for everyone to sit down, for the Conservative Party to sit


down, discuss where our numbers are, and just look at what is going


to be best for Cornwall, and who we are going to be


doing business with, if we are going to be


doing with anyone. Back in Devon, the fall


of another big name, this time a Lib Dem,


the former MP Richard Younger-Ross, who says his defeat in these local


elections means he won't be There was little sign of the fight


back the Lib Dems had hoped for, but for those in Cornwall


who remember the pain of 2015, I just can't believe


it, to be honest. I got 580-something


last time in 2013. Optimism in the Ukip ranks too,


despite the party's total wipe-out. I honestly don't believe


Ukip is finished. We will bounce back, but at


the moment the priority is Brexit. But a party that delivers


on its promise - we'll still be As for Labour, its Exeter stronghold


remained impregnable, a successful blends those


in Cornwall are desperate to taste. Of course, it is in the tea


room that you hear And plenty of talk today


about what this all this means I even overheard some Labour


activists saying they reckon they are in with a chance in St


Ives. I have been a Labour MP in Cornwall,


and we have a history, Is that going to happen


this time, though? I'll be honest, I think that is


unlikely, but you never know. But it's the Lib Dems who really


fancy their chances in west Cornwall, though these local results


projected onto the St Ives constituency don't give


the Lib Dems enough on an MP. Their fate could rest


in the hands of the Greens. And still rumours here of a deal


between the two parties. To discuss as we are joined by the


Lib Dem parliamentary candidate for a Yeovil Jo Roundell Green. He said


there is little sign of a Lib Dem revival. The reality as it was


pretty disastrous. An overall loss of eight seats. If I looked a


Yeovil, we really did very well. We went and with six and became it with


six. We have lost a leader, we have very pleased that John Osman has


been replaced, and that is good for Somerset. In Yeovil in itself, we


haven't really had any change. It doesn't make much difference. I can


see it as a bitter pill to see the leader goal, but the reality as it


was a great deal of anticipation, you saw the Lib Dem leader in the


south-east a lot. This could be a resurgence. Nothing like it. It is


neck and neck at the moment. The difference in the vote is 1% in


favour, and really feel we are idea to one. We are going to a nest


general election, and voting last week was a very good indicator that


people beginning to realise that the Lib Dems are still here, we are


fighting back. We are very very strong. Yeovil has always been a


very strong Liberal Democrat, with Paddy Ashdown and endeavoured laws,


we really strongly believe with our fantastic new candidates and county


council... How many seats do you think you will take in the


south-west? I think we could easily take three and possibly more. I


think people are very unsure, just talking to them on the doorstep you


can tell that they don't know what will happen. In the local election,


people aren't necessarily focused on the national picture. And the


general election the lobby, so if the go this way even and the local,


it bodes very badly. I don't think it does. I know we have a very good


chance in Yeovil, where we work extremely hard, and we need to fight


for what we have locally. Our for what we have locally. Our


aerospace engineer, R schools and NHS. Exeter again produced very good


Labour result. The party seems to Labour result. The party seems to


have a better the Midas touch there. Elsewhere, it was a terrible night


for Labour. I was delighted that we held all of our seats in Exeter,


although there was a swing to the although there was a swing to the


Conservatives so we are not at all, pleasing given the results elsewhere


were so bad fellas. Also, the results confirm what the opinion


polls show, which is that the Conservatives are heading for up


probable landslide. I think everybody fears that prospect. This


extreme hard Brexit, outside the EU, people need to do what ever they can


if they want a decent opposition after this election should be


rallying to those opposition parties. Sheryll will say, all, nor


we are not romping to victory. This is all about who covers the country


on the basis of these results, it is a mountain. I agree and that is what


I have just said. As you conceding defeat then? Do you think there is


little prospect... There is one opposition member of Parliament at


the moment. It is me and my seat is at risk. People have to vote for MPs


who can be an opposition in parliament. It is very bad for


democracy and by the health of our democracy given a huge challenge we


face of a Brexit, over school funding, not to have a single


opposition MP. It would be a disaster. The local election results


were encouraging, but we don't take anything for granted. This is why


you're talking it down... In message as if you want Theresa May and tag


team to have a strong and stable Government and to be fighting a


corner and getting the strongest possible deal for Brexit, you have


to vote for the Conservative Party. Don't leave it for others. Everyone


has to go out there to make sure we have a strong negotiator. It is so


important. This election is so important for our country, and we


can either have an strong negotiator in Brussels and Theresa May Jamie


Caven who will come away with a few crumbs that the EU are prepared to


offer those. -- Jeremy Corbin, who will come away. Everyone knows the


Conservatives are heading for a landslide. As you happy you that


Jeremy Corbyn will go to Brussels and negotiate follows? Are you


saying you have confidence and your leader. You have spoken up against


them for so long. You happy that time firing, his whole M is to


become an opposition leader. Isn't this the problem of the last


election. The Conservatives said if you vote for anyone else you will


get Ed Miliband. A pupil at focused on the national picture, and this is


the message that is pushing again. As like the record got stuck. Tim


Farron just wants to be an opposition. I think one has to be


realistic. There has to be a strong opposition, because every don't have


somebody else scrutinised in what Theresa May is doing, and I worry


very much. Can I finish? You need somebody to be watching what is


happening to scrutinise the checks and balances. We cannot have Theresa


May negotiating and not coming back, and other people watching what she


is doing to make sure this is what is best for our country. I also feel


very strongly behalf to do the day job. There are still gone to be


people who need their benefits, housing. We need to make sure our


schools and hospitals are getting the right amount of funding and that


rockets fell been continued. I want to move the discussion on to a more


specific issue. A reminder at the Bobby if the list of general


election candidates... candidates in Yeovil,


Exeter, South East Cornwall, and indeed every constituency,


on the BBC website. And if you're interested


in standing yourself, you've got until Thursday


when nominations close. The Government's controversial plans


to change school funding has aroused huge opposition


within the Conservative Party. Now, in the general election


campaign itself, Tory candidates, including seven hoping to be


re-elected as MPs in Devon, have attacked the policy and are calling


on the Prime Minister I do hereby declare that


Tony Inch is duly elected. After all the gladhanding,


payback time. If we're going to do


a formula that makes sense, we've got to have money that


actually increases in Devon, not that two thirds of the children


in Devon lose their funding. It's shaping up to be


one of the big issues. For years, councils in the region


have moaned about how little dosh A new school funding formula


that the Government was at pains to stress was fairer promised much,


but in reality many schools are now facing a far harder cash crisis.


If these proposals are adopted, we're going to have 15 primary


schools gaining, 20 losing out, and all the secondary schools


in East Devon losing out. This is clearly neither


fair nor acceptable. So, fresh from delivering


a local Tory landslide, grassroots Conservatives want


something in return. I think we will get more money


for schools, but how long it is going to take,


I don't know. It depends on the Secretary


of State for Education, and we understand there's a good


chance that that may change. Some think the scale of the Tory


victory in Thursday's local elections could


lead to complacency... Was a Remainer, and now


she is a Brexiteer. ..reducing the chances


of any extra school cash I think, really, in County,


the people have taken They haven't seen what's coming yet,


and the Conservatives don't even But they were rumours


last week of a U-turn, with 60 conservative backbench MPs


threatening a rebellion. We have every Conservative member


of Parliament in Devon writing to the Prime Minister


saying something has The formula that was produced,


the national formula, It's tough talk, but it


doesn't end there. In the hours after the local


landslide, another letter from a Devon headteacher urging


parents to put pressure on Tories I think Labour had made an


announcement, they will put more money into schools. I think it is 3


haul schools are suffering. I don't haul schools are suffering. I don't


think you addressing the issue of redistribution. The funding issue is


pretty marginal one compared with the overall cuts. Overall cuts are


7% at. My skills in Exeter are losing hundreds of thousands of


pounds a year now. There haven't they are teachers and classroom


assistants. The Conservatives in Parliament have had several


opportunities to vote against us. We have had debates and vote against


it, they have never done anything. Now that as an election, they are


may do something. Not about the overall cuts, just about before


Miller. There are 300,000 more pupils and good understanding


schools in the south-west and they were in 2010. ?3 billion has gone


into schools in the south-west through the pupil premium. You


saying they don't deserve any money? 3 million more apprenticeships have


been found since the Conservatives came in to Government. And Ben's


party could have done something to party could have done something to


address the failure of funding as you when they were in Government and


they didn't act. Somebody has to grasp the nettle. Somebody,... There


was a port in the Evening Standard that George Osborne treated out.


Tory candidates everywhere and unhappy. I have to say to you that I


met with Justin Greening and the last Parliament, we all met with a.


She hasn't made any firm announcement yet. There


consultation, and she wants to take consultation, and she wants to take


it very seriously before she makes an announcement. Do you agree with


the Devon candidate and former MPs who say this needs to change? I am


waiting to see what the announcement adds. But we know what it means. She


has consulted on their present proposals and hasn't made any


announcement. It is all about fairness. It is wrong that skills


and Westminster get twice as much as children and my constituency at the


moment. Something has to happen and when you realign something, you


always get winners and losers. You always get winners and losers. But


despite rejigging the funding formula when you are cutting the


budget is madness. By 300,000 pupils... Please let me and set


Martyn's question. They Conservative MPs at Westminster have had numerous


virginity is to stop this. They could have voted with us but never


has. They are pretending it is an issue because it as an election on.


It is actually the overall cuts to our schools. We invested and schools


and that is what they should be doing. Yes I know, at the present


proposals you right or wrong? I can't say yes or no because I


haven't seen the final proposals. We will have to leave it there.


Now our regular round-up of the political week in 60 seconds.


Parts of north and south-east Cornwall joined St Ives in voting


for new restrictions on second homes.


It would be nice to see families back in the village again.


Devon City Council moves forward with plans to give fishermen free


GPS-equipped life jackets, and the EU is been asked to put up


the hundreds and thousands of pounds needed to buy the next batch.


If we could take that pain away from everything by keeping


the fishermen alive, then the benefits are long-reaching


Labour's candidate in Camborne and Redruth at the last general


election, Michael Foster, threatens to stand against party


leader Jeremy Corbyn as an independent on June 8th.


Seagulls watching the PM's chips are hungry for some limelight...


The Conservatives really pushed back and destroyed the Liberal Democrats.


..while those feeding seagulls in parts of East Devon


There definitely needs to be something more stringent to stop


You're obviously both delighted to hear about the Seagull fine, but I


am keen to talk about the second homes issue. To be clear, this is


restricting new-build homes to permanent residents. Do you agree


with that? Very sensible in pockets when there's a problem, but of


course the main prizes as affordability. People cannot afford


to get on the property ladder, they can't afford the high level of


private rents. We need a much better housing market so local people can


afford both to buy and to rent. It is a problem and holiday areas, and


that is a good solution, but it has not gone to solve the overall


problem. I am really pleased that the neighbourhood plans have started


to come forward. It has taken too long. They were introduced in 2011,


I think it is right that we start looking at new belt so that people


aren't building second homes as new-builds and that will hopefully


help people to get on the housing ladder. The one thing that we must


do, which is where we started this discussion, is make sure the economy


in places like Connell improves so that wages improve and young people


can actually afford to get. You would need a massive improvement in


the economy to start closing the gap. Because we have gone for the


last 12 years relying on European hand-outs. Just quickly, then, do


you have any advice for Michael Foster standing against Jeremy


Corbyn? No. None at all. You wouldn't welcome the development?


People have got to do what they think is right and left, that is


what I always try to do. That's the Sunday Politics


in the South West. housing associations and investment,


but we have run out of time, thank you. Andrew.


Four weeks to go until polling day on the 8th of June, what will the


party strategies be for the remaining four weeks? Let's begin


with the Conservatives. Do they just try to continue to play it safe for


four weeks? Yes, with this important qualification. Theresa May Corp this


election to get her own personal mandate partly, partly because she


thought she would win big but to get her own personal mandate. Therefore,


she needs to define it. In her own interests and to do with


accountability to the country. So clearly, they will not take risks


when they are so far ahead in the polls. What they do say in the


manifesto matters in terms of the space that she has in


the coming years to define her leadership against David Cameron 's.


She is a free figure, partly on the basis of what she says as to how big


she wins. They cannot just play it safe and repeat their mantra of


strong and stable leadership, if she is going to claim her own mandate,


they need the top policy? Yes, and what is unusual about this is that


the manifesto matters far more because of what they need to do with


it afterwards, than in terms of whether it is going to win anybody


over now. Clearly, the strategy is yes, we do have two layout out a few


things, there are interesting debates as to whether, for example,


they will still commit to this ambition of reducing immigration to


the tens of thousands, we do not know the answer yet. It is a


question on whether she is setting herself up for difficulties later


on. It will be a short manifesto, I would venture to guess? It is in her


interests to be as noncommittal as possible, that argues for a short


manifesto but what does strike me about the Conservative campaign,


aside from the ambiguity on policy, is how personal it is. I think


Theresa May, in her most recent speech, referred to "My local


candidates", rather than Parliamentary candidates, very much


framing it as a presidential candidate in France or the USA. Not


a rational on her part. Everything I hear from the MPs on the ground and


the focus groups being done by the parties, is that a big chunk of the


population personally identify with her. If you can wrap up Middle


England into a physical object and embody it in a person, it would be


her. Although Jeremy Corbyn's unpopularity accounts for a big


slice of her popularity, she has done a good job of bonding with the


public. We never saw that coming! But you may well be right. That is


happening now. Labour say it wants the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell


to play a more prominent role in the Labour campaign, he was on The


Andrew Marr Show this morning and he was asked if he was a Marxist, he


denied that he was. It surprised me as I had seen tape from before


saying that he was proud of it. Let's look now and then. Are you a


Marxist? I believe that there is a lot to learn... Yes or no? I believe


that there is a lot to learn from reading capital, that is recommended


not only by me but measuring economists as well. I also believe


that in the long tradition of the Labour Party... We need to demand


systemic change. I am a Marxist. This is a classic crisis of the


economy. A capitalist crisis. I've been waiting for this for a


generation! That was from about four years ago. No, I'm not a Marxist,


yes, I am a Marxist... I've been waiting for the Marxist revolution


my whole life... Does this kind of thing matter? Yes, but in fairness,


I think he is a really good interviewee. The Shadow Cabinet have


untested figures in a national campaign. None have ever been


exposed at any level to a national media campaign that they are about


to experience. He is the best interviewee. In fairness to him,


when he gave that clip four years ago, I bet he never dream that he


would be in a senior front bench position. But the background is


clear. They are of the left, and I think they would all have described


it. Jeremy Corbyn would have done, he is close to being like Tony Benn.


There are about four Labour campaign is being fought in this election.


Their campaign, the old Shadow Cabinet, campaigning in


constituencies, but not identifying with that campaign. There is the


former Labour leader Tony Blair. Is it damaging? I think so, if they


could be damaged any further, I could see all of the Labour MPs with


their heads in their hands. What I am hearing from Labour MPs is that


there is not one of them who do not feel that they have a horrendous


battle on their hands. These will be very individual local campaigns,


where local MPs are winning despite the party leadership and not because


of it. Already, talk is turning to what happens next. Is there anyway


that Jeremy Corbyn, giving a horrendous set of general election


results as many anticipate, may stay on all the same? It is not clear


that even if the polls are right, that Mr Corbyn will go? John


McDonnell implied it might not be the case but previously, he said it


would be. What do you make of reports that the Labour strategy is


not, I cannot quite believe I am saying this, not to win seats but


maximise a share of the vote. If they do better than Ed Miliband with


30.5% of the vote, they believe they live to fight another day? Yes, it


reminded me of Tony Benn's speech after the 1983 election where they


said as bad as the Parliamentary defeat was there were 8 million


votes for socialism. A big section of public opinion voted for that


manifesto. I wonder whether that is Corbyn's supporters best chance of


holding onto power. Whether they can say that those votes are a platform


on which we can build. That said, even moderate Labour MPs and


desperate for a quick leadership contest. I hear a lot of them say


that they would like to leave it for one year. Maybe have Tom Watson as


an acting Labour leader. He would still have a mandate. Give the top


party a chance to regroup and get rid of some of its problems and


decide where it stands on policy. Most importantly, for potential


candidates to show what they are made of, rather than lurching


straight into an Yvette Cooper Coronation. 30 seconds on the


Liberal Democrats, their strategy was to mop up the Remain vote.


Uncertain about the Brexit party in demise. Ukip. The remain as have a


dilemma, the little Democrats are not a strong enough vessel with 89


MPs to risk all ongoing for them -- the Liberal Democrats. Labour do not


know where they stand on Brexit. There is not a robust alternative


vessel for what is now a pro-Brexit Conservative Party. At the moment.


Four weeks to go, but not for France...


France has been voting since early this morning, and we should get


a first estimate of who will be the country's next President


Just to warn you there are some flashing images coming up.


The choice in France is between a centre-left liberal


reformer Emmanuel Macron and a right-wing nationalist


Marine Le Pen - both have been casting their votes this morning.


The two candidates topped a field of 11 presidential


hopefuls in the first round of elections last month.


The campaign has been marked by its unpredictability,


and in a final twist on Friday evening, just before


campaigning officially ended, Mr Macron's En Marche! group said


it had been the victim of a "massive" hack,


with a trove of documents released online.


The Macron team said real documents were mixed up with fake ones,


and electoral authorities warned media and the public that spreading


details of the leaks would breach strict election rules.


I'm joined now from Paris by the journalist


As I left Paris recently, everybody told me that there was the consensus


that Mr Macron would win, and win pretty comfortable you. Is there any


reason to doubt that? -- pretty comfortably. I don't think so, there


have been so many people left and right, former candidates who have


decided that it was more important to vote for Macron, even if it was


agreed with him, then run the risk of having Marine Le Pen as


president. I think the spread is now 20 points, 60% to Macron, 40% to Le


Pen. So outside of the margin of error that it would take something


huge for this to be observed. If the polls are right and Mr Macron wins,


he has to put together a government, and in May there is a Coronation,


then he faces parliamentary elections in June and could face a


fractured parliament where he does not have a clear majority for his


reforms. He could then faced difficulties in getting his


programme through? I think that right now, with how things are


looking, considering you have one half of the Republican party, the


Conservative Party, they are making clear sides, not only that they want


to support Macron but are supporting him actively. It means looking at


the equivalent of the German party, the great coalition. Depending on


how many seats established parties keep in the house committee may very


well have a Republican Prime Minister, rather than having an


adversarial MP, he may have someone who is relatively unknown outside of


France, and a young woman. Contended that lost the Parez mayorship three


years ago. She is a scientist and has been secretary of state. She


would be an interesting coalition Prime Minister. Finally, Marine Le


Pen, if she goes down to defeat a night, does she have the stomach and


ambition, and the energy, to try it all again in 2022? She has all of


that. The question is, would they let her? How badly would she lose?


Her niece, now 27, a hard-working and steady person, unlike Marine Le


Pen, who flunked her do paid -- debate, her niece may decide that


2022 is her turn. Yet another Le Pen! All right, we will see. Just


five years to wait, but only a few hours until the results of the


election tonight. And we will get the exit polls here


on the BBC. Given the exit polls will give as a pretty fair


indication of what the result is going to be tonight. That will be on


BBC news. That's all for today. The Daily Politics will cover every


turn of this election campaign, And we're back here on BBC One


at our usual time Next Sunday. Remember - if it's Sunday,


it's the Sunday Politics. Our crack team of experts


use pioneering research ..to how to help your pet


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