07/05/2017 Sunday Politics South West


07/05/2017

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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:38.:00:40.

The local election results made grim reading for Labour.

:00:41.:00:43.

With just a month to go until the general election,

:00:44.:00:48.

will promising to rule out tax rises for all but the well off help

:00:49.:00:51.

The Conservatives have their own announcement on mental health,

:00:52.:00:56.

as they strain every sinew to insist they don't think they've got

:00:57.:00:59.

But is there still really all to play for?

:01:00.:01:06.

And tonight we will find out who is the next

:01:07.:01:10.

President of France - Emmanuel Macron or Marine Le Pen -

:01:11.:01:14.

In the South West: ended with a hack attack

:01:15.:01:18.

We may be in a general election campaign, but that's not

:01:19.:01:21.

stopping a Tory revolt against the Government's plan

:01:22.:01:23.

potential impact in marginals next month. If Ukip support continues to

:01:24.:01:31.

evaporate... And joining me for all of that,

:01:32.:01:38.

three journalists ready to analyse the week's politics

:01:39.:01:41.

with all the forensic focus of Diane Abbott

:01:42.:01:44.

preparing for an interview, and all the relaxed,

:01:45.:01:48.

slogan-free banter of Theresa May It's Janan Ganesh, Isabel Oakeshott

:01:49.:01:50.

and Steve Richards. So, the Conservatives are promising,

:01:51.:01:56.

if re-elected, to change mental health laws in England and Wales

:01:57.:02:02.

to tackle discrimination, and they're promising 10,000 more

:02:03.:02:05.

staff working in NHS mental health treatment in England by 2020 -

:02:06.:02:12.

although how that's to be Here's Health Secretary

:02:13.:02:14.

Jeremy Hunt speaking There is a lot of new

:02:15.:02:17.

money going into it. In January, we said we were going

:02:18.:02:24.

to put an extra ?1 billion Does this come from other parts

:02:25.:02:28.

of the NHS, or is it No, it is new money

:02:29.:02:31.

going into the NHS It's not just of course money,

:02:32.:02:35.

it's having the people who deliver these jobs,

:02:36.:02:42.

which is why we need Well, we're joined now from Norwich

:02:43.:02:44.

by the Liberal Democrat health This weekend, they've launched

:02:45.:02:49.

their own health announcement, promising a 1% rise on every income

:02:50.:02:52.

tax band to fund the NHS. Do you welcome the Conservatives

:02:53.:03:04.

putting mental health onto the campaign agenda in the way that they

:03:05.:03:09.

have? I welcome it being on the campaign agenda but I do fear that

:03:10.:03:13.

the announcement is built on thin air. You raised the issue at the

:03:14.:03:19.

start about the 10,000 extra staff, and questions surrounding how it

:03:20.:03:22.

would be paid for. There is no additional money on what they have

:03:23.:03:27.

already announced for the NHS. We know it falls massively short on the

:03:28.:03:34.

expectation of the funding gap which, by 2020, is likely to be

:03:35.:03:38.

about 30 billion. That is not disputed now. Anyone outside of the

:03:39.:03:42.

government, wherever you are on the political spectrum, knows the money

:03:43.:03:46.

going in is simply not enough. So, rather like the claim that they

:03:47.:03:55.

would add 5000 GPs to the workforce by 2020, that is not on target.

:03:56.:04:00.

Latest figures show a fall in the number of GPs. They make these

:04:01.:04:05.

claims, but I'm afraid they are without substance, unless they are

:04:06.:04:09.

prepared to put money behind it. Your party's solution to the money

:04:10.:04:14.

problem is to put a 1% percentage point on all of the bands of income

:04:15.:04:25.

tax to raise more money 20-45. Is that unfair? Most pensioners who

:04:26.:04:32.

consume 40% of NHS spending, but over 65s only pay about 20% of

:04:33.:04:37.

income tax. Are you penalising the younger generations for the health

:04:38.:04:42.

care of an older generation? It is the first step in what we are

:04:43.:04:46.

describing as a 5-point recovery plan for the NHS and care system.

:04:47.:04:51.

So, for what is available to us now, it seems to be the fairest way of

:04:52.:04:57.

bringing in extra resources, income tax is progressive, and is based on

:04:58.:05:01.

your ability to pay for your average British worker. It would be ?3 per

:05:02.:05:06.

week which is the cost of less than two cups of coffee per week. In the

:05:07.:05:11.

longer run, we say that by the end of the next Parliament, we would be

:05:12.:05:15.

able to introduce a dedicated NHS and care tax. Based, probably,

:05:16.:05:22.

around a reformed national insurance system, so it becomes a dedicated

:05:23.:05:28.

NHS and care tax. Interestingly, the former permanent secretary of the

:05:29.:05:31.

Treasury, Nick MacPherson, said clearly that this idea merits

:05:32.:05:36.

further consideration which is the first time anyone for the Treasury

:05:37.:05:43.

has bought into the idea of this. Let me ask you this. You say it is a

:05:44.:05:47.

small amount of tax that people on average incomes will have to pay

:05:48.:05:51.

extra. We are talking about people who have seen no real increases to

:05:52.:05:57.

their income since 2007. They have been struggling to stand still in

:05:58.:06:02.

terms of their own pay, but you are going to add to their tax, and as I

:06:03.:06:06.

said earlier, most of the health care money will then go to

:06:07.:06:11.

pensioners whose incomes have risen by 15%. I'm interested in the

:06:12.:06:16.

fairness of this redistribution? Bearing in mind first of all,

:06:17.:06:22.

Andrew, that the raising of the tax threshold that the Liberal Democrats

:06:23.:06:27.

pushed through in the coalition increased the effective pay in your

:06:28.:06:32.

pocket for basic rate taxpayers by about ?1000. We are talking about a

:06:33.:06:38.

tiny fraction of that. I suppose that you do have to ask, all of us

:06:39.:06:41.

in this country need to ask ourselves this question... Are we

:06:42.:06:46.

prepared to pay, in terms of the average worker, about ?3 extra per

:06:47.:06:51.

week to give us a guarantee that when our loved ones need that care,

:06:52.:06:56.

in their hour of need, perhaps suspected cancer, that care will be

:06:57.:07:01.

available for them? I have heard two cases recently brought my attention.

:07:02.:07:07.

An elderly couple, the wife has a very bad hip. They could not allow

:07:08.:07:10.

the weight to continue. She was told that she would need to wait 26

:07:11.:07:15.

weeks, she was in acute pain. They then deduct paying ?20,000 for

:07:16.:07:19.

private treatment to circumvent waiting time. They hated doing it,

:07:20.:07:24.

because they did not want to jump the queue. But that is what is

:07:25.:07:29.

increasingly happening. Sorry to interrupt, Norman Lamb comedy make

:07:30.:07:32.

very good points but we are short on time today. One final question, it

:07:33.:07:39.

looks like you might have the chance to do any of this, I'm told the best

:07:40.:07:43.

you can hope to do internally is to double the number of seats you have,

:07:44.:07:49.

which would only take you to 18. Do you think that promising to raise

:07:50.:07:54.

people's income tax, even those on average earnings, is a vote winner?

:07:55.:07:58.

I think the people in this country are crying out for politicians to be

:07:59.:08:02.

straight and tenet as it is. At the moment we heading towards a

:08:03.:08:09.

Conservative landslide... -- tell it as it is. But do we want a 1-party

:08:10.:08:14.

state? We are electing a government not only to deal with the crucial

:08:15.:08:19.

Brexit negotiations, but oversee the stewardship of the NHS and funding

:08:20.:08:23.

of our schools, all of these critical issues. We need an

:08:24.:08:26.

effective opposition and with the Labour Party having taken itself off

:08:27.:08:31.

stage, the Liberal Democrats need to provide an effective opposition.

:08:32.:08:33.

Norman Lamb, thank you for joining us this morning. Thank you.

:08:34.:08:38.

Labour and Tories are anxious to stress the general election

:08:39.:08:41.

result is not a foregone conclusion, whatever the polls say.

:08:42.:08:43.

Order you just heard Norman Lamb say there that he thought the

:08:44.:08:48.

Conservatives were heading for a landslide...

:08:49.:08:51.

But did Thursday's dramatic set of local election results

:08:52.:08:53.

in England, Scotland and Wales give us a better idea of how the country

:08:54.:08:56.

Here's Emma Vardy with a behind-the-scenes look at how

:08:57.:09:00.

Good morning, it's seven o'clock on Friday, May 5th...

:09:01.:09:03.

The dawn of another results day. Anticipation hung in the air.

:09:04.:09:09.

Early results from the local elections in England suggest

:09:10.:09:13.

there's been a substantial swing from Labour to the Conservatives.

:09:14.:09:16.

While the pros did their thing, I needed breakfast.

:09:17.:09:20.

Don't tell anyone, but I'm going to pinch a sausage.

:09:21.:09:23.

The overnight counts had delivered successes for the Tories.

:09:24.:09:25.

But with most councils only getting started,

:09:26.:09:26.

there was plenty of action still to come.

:09:27.:09:32.

It's not quite the night of Labour's nightmares.

:09:33.:09:34.

There's enough mixed news in Wales, for example -

:09:35.:09:36.

looks like they're about to hold Cardiff - that they'll try and put

:09:37.:09:39.

But in really simple terms, four weeks from a general election,

:09:40.:09:46.

the Tories are going forward and Labour are going backwards.

:09:47.:09:49.

How does it compare being in here to doing the telly?

:09:50.:09:54.

Huw, how do you prepare yourself for a long day of results, then?

:09:55.:10:00.

We're not even on air yet, as you can see, and already

:10:01.:10:05.

in Tory HQ this morning, there's a kind of, "Oh,

:10:06.:10:09.

I'm scared this will make people think the election's just

:10:10.:10:12.

I think leave it like that - perfect.

:10:13.:10:15.

I want the Laura look. This is really good, isn't it?

:10:16.:10:18.

Usually, we're in here for the Daily Politics.

:10:19.:10:22.

But it's been transformed for the Election Results programme.

:10:23.:10:27.

But hours went by without Ukip winning a single seat.

:10:28.:10:39.

The joke going around Lincolnshire County Council today

:10:40.:10:45.

from the Conservatives is that the Tories have eaten

:10:46.:10:47.

We will rebrand and come back strong.

:10:48.:10:51.

Morale, I think, is inevitably going to take a bit of a tumble.

:10:52.:10:56.

Particularly if Theresa May starts backsliding on Brexit.

:10:57.:10:59.

And then I think we will be totally reinvigorated.

:11:00.:11:02.

There are a lot of good people in Ukip and I wouldn't

:11:03.:11:05.

want to say anything unkind, but we all know it's over.

:11:06.:11:08.

Ukip press officer. Difficult job.

:11:09.:11:12.

Ukip weren't the only ones putting a brave face on it.

:11:13.:11:16.

Labour were experiencing their own disaster day too,

:11:17.:11:19.

losing hundreds of seats and seven councils.

:11:20.:11:23.

If the result is what these results appear to indicate,

:11:24.:11:27.

Can we have a quick word for the Sunday Politics?

:11:28.:11:32.

A quick question for Sunday Politics - how are you feeling?

:11:33.:11:40.

Downhearted or fired up for June? Fired up, absolutely fired up.

:11:41.:11:44.

He's fired up. We're going to go out there...

:11:45.:11:47.

We cannot go on with another five years of this.

:11:48.:11:49.

How's it been for you today? Tiring.

:11:50.:11:52.

It always is, but I love elections, I really enjoy them.

:11:53.:11:55.

Yes, you know, obviously we're disappointed at some of the results,

:11:56.:11:59.

it's been a mixed bag, but some opinion polls

:12:00.:12:01.

and commentators predicted we'd be wiped out - we haven't.

:12:02.:12:06.

As for the Lib Dems, not the resurgence they hoped for,

:12:07.:12:09.

After a dead heat in Northumberland, the control of a whole council came

:12:10.:12:17.

The section of England in which we had elections yesterday

:12:18.:12:26.

was the section of England that was most likely to vote Leave.

:12:27.:12:30.

When you go to sleep at night, do you just have election results

:12:31.:12:33.

The answer is if that's still happening, I don't get to sleep.

:12:34.:12:39.

There we go. Maybe practice some yoga...

:12:40.:12:41.

Thank you very much but I have one here.

:12:42.:12:45.

With the introduction of six regional mayors,

:12:46.:12:49.

Labour's Andy Burnham became Mr Manchester.

:12:50.:12:52.

But by the time Corbyn came to celebrate, the new mayor

:12:53.:12:55.

We want you to stay for a second because I've got some

:12:56.:13:01.

I used to present news, as you probably know.

:13:02.:13:04.

I used to present BBC Breakfast in the morning.

:13:05.:13:06.

The SNP had notable successes, ending 40 years of Labour

:13:07.:13:08.

What did you prefer - presenting or politics?

:13:09.:13:15.

And it certainly had been a hard day at the office for some.

:13:16.:13:21.

Ukip's foothold in local government was all but wiped out,

:13:22.:13:26.

leaving the Conservatives with their best local

:13:27.:13:28.

So another election results day draws to a close.

:13:29.:13:33.

But don't worry, we'll be doing it all again in five weeks' time.

:13:34.:13:36.

For now, though, that's your lot. Off you go.

:13:37.:13:39.

Now let's look at some of Thursday's results in a little more detail,

:13:40.:13:51.

and what they might mean for the wider fortunes

:13:52.:13:53.

In England, there were elections for 34 councils.

:13:54.:14:05.

The Conservatives took control of ten of them,

:14:06.:14:07.

gaining over 300 seats, while Labour sustained

:14:08.:14:09.

While the Lib Dems lost 28 seats, Ukip came close to extinction,

:14:10.:14:14.

and can now boast of only one councillor in the whole of England.

:14:15.:14:20.

In Scotland, the big story was Labour losing

:14:21.:14:22.

a third of their seats, and control of three councils -

:14:23.:14:24.

while the Tories more than doubled their number of councillors.

:14:25.:14:27.

In Wales, both the Conservatives and Plaid Cymru made gains,

:14:28.:14:31.

There was some encouraging news for Jeremy Corbyn's party

:14:32.:14:37.

after Liverpool and Manchester both elected Labour mayors,

:14:38.:14:39.

although the Tories narrowly won the West Midlands mayoral race.

:14:40.:14:46.

We're joined now by who else but elections expert John Curtice.

:14:47.:14:49.

You saw him in Emma's film, he's now back in Glasgow.

:14:50.:14:53.

In broad terms, what do these local election results tell us about the

:14:54.:15:06.

general election result? First we have to remember what Theresa May

:15:07.:15:11.

wants to achieve in the general election is a landslide, and winning

:15:12.:15:14.

a landslide means you have to win big in terms of votes. The local

:15:15.:15:18.

election results certainly suggest Theresa May is well on course to win

:15:19.:15:22.

the general election, at least with four weeks to go, and of course

:15:23.:15:26.

people could change their minds. We all agree the Conservatives were

:15:27.:15:30.

double-digit figures ahead of Labour in these elections. However, whereas

:15:31.:15:35.

the opinion polls on average at the moment suggest there is a 17 point

:15:36.:15:42.

Conservative lead, and that definitely would deliver a

:15:43.:15:44.

landslide, it seems the local election figures, at least in

:15:45.:15:46.

England, are pointing to something close to an 11 point Conservative

:15:47.:15:51.

lead. That increase would not necessarily deliver a landslide that

:15:52.:15:57.

she wants. The truth is, the next four weeks are probably not about

:15:58.:16:01.

who wins this election unless something dramatic changes, but

:16:02.:16:05.

there is still a battle as to whether or not Theresa May achieves

:16:06.:16:08.

her objective of winning a landslide. She has to win big. The

:16:09.:16:13.

local elections as she is not sure to be there, and therefore she is

:16:14.:16:17.

going to have to campaign hard. Equally, while Labour did have most

:16:18.:16:21.

prospect of winning, they still at least at the goal of trying to keep

:16:22.:16:26.

the conservative majority relatively low, and therefore the Parliamentary

:16:27.:16:30.

Labour Party are alive and kicking. Interesting that the local election

:16:31.:16:34.

results don't produce a landslide if replicated on June 8th, but when I

:16:35.:16:38.

looked at when local elections had taken place a month before the

:16:39.:16:44.

general election, it was in 1983 and 1987. The Tories did well in both

:16:45.:16:49.

local elections in these years, but come the general election, they

:16:50.:16:52.

added five points to their share of the vote. No reason it should happen

:16:53.:16:57.

again, but if it did, that would take them into landslide territory.

:16:58.:17:01.

Absolutely right, if they do five points better than the local

:17:02.:17:04.

elections, they are in landslide territory. We have to remember, in

:17:05.:17:11.

1983, the Labour Party ran an inept campaign and their support ballet.

:17:12.:17:15.

In 1987, David Owen and David Steele could not keep to the same lines. --

:17:16.:17:22.

their support fell away. That underlines how well the opposition

:17:23.:17:25.

campaign in the next four weeks does potentially matter in terms of

:17:26.:17:28.

Theresa May's ability to achieve their objective. It is worth

:17:29.:17:33.

noticing in the opinion polls, two things have happened, first, Ukip

:17:34.:17:37.

voters, a significant slice going to the Conservatives, which helped to

:17:38.:17:41.

increase the Conservative leader in the bowels. But in the last week,

:17:42.:17:44.

the Labour vote seems to have recovered. -- in the polls. So the

:17:45.:17:50.

party is not that far short of what Ed Miliband got in 2015, so the

:17:51.:17:56.

Conservative leader is back down to 16 or 17, as we started. So we

:17:57.:18:00.

should not necessarily presume Labour are going to go backwards in

:18:01.:18:05.

the way they did in 1983. I want to finish by asking if there are deeper

:18:06.:18:10.

forces at work? Whether the referendum in this country is

:18:11.:18:13.

producing a realignment in British politics. The Scottish referendum

:18:14.:18:17.

has produced a kind of realignment in Scotland. And in a different way,

:18:18.:18:22.

the Brexit referendum has produced a realignment in England and Wales. Do

:18:23.:18:29.

you agree? You are quite right. Referendums are potentially

:18:30.:18:33.

disruptive in Scotland, they helped to ensure the constitutional

:18:34.:18:36.

question became the central issue, and the 45% who voted yes our been

:18:37.:18:41.

faithful to the SNP since. Although the SNP put in a relatively

:18:42.:18:44.

disappointing performance in Scotland on Thursday. Equally, south

:18:45.:18:50.

of the border, on the leave side, in the past 12 months and particularly

:18:51.:18:53.

the last few weeks, the Conservatives have corralled the

:18:54.:18:58.

leave vote, about two thirds of those who voted leave now say they

:18:59.:19:02.

will vote Conservative. Last summer, the figure was only 50%. On the

:19:03.:19:07.

remain side, the vote is still fragmented. The reason why Theresa

:19:08.:19:17.

May is in the strong position she is is not simply because the leave vote

:19:18.:19:21.

has been realigned, but the remain vote has not. Thank you for joining

:19:22.:19:29.

us. You can go through polls and wonder who is up and down, but I

:19:30.:19:33.

wonder whether the Scottish and Brexit referendums have produced

:19:34.:19:38.

fundamental changes. In Scotland, the real division now is between the

:19:39.:19:45.

centre-left Nationalist party and the centre-right Unionist party.

:19:46.:19:49.

That has had the consequence of squeezing out Labour in the

:19:50.:19:54.

argument, never mind the Greens and the Lib Dems. In London, England,

:19:55.:19:59.

Wales, the Brexit referendum seems to have produced a realignment of

:20:00.:20:04.

the right to the Tories' advantage, and some trouble for the Labour blue

:20:05.:20:13.

vote -- blue-collar vote. It works for the pro Brexit end of the

:20:14.:20:20.

spectrum but not the other half. In the last century, we had people like

:20:21.:20:24.

Roy Jenkins dreaming of and writing about the realignment of British

:20:25.:20:27.

politics as though it could be consciously engineered, and in fact

:20:28.:20:30.

what made it happen was just the calling of a referendum. It's not

:20:31.:20:36.

something you can put about as a politician, it flows from below,

:20:37.:20:39.

when the public begin to think of politics in terms of single issues,

:20:40.:20:44.

dominant issues, such as leaving the European Union. Rather than a broad

:20:45.:20:48.

spectrum designed by a political class. I wonder whether now Remain

:20:49.:20:54.

have it in them to coalesce behind a single party. It doesn't look like

:20:55.:20:58.

they can do it behind Labour. The Liberal Democrats are frankly too

:20:59.:21:01.

small in Parliament to constitute that kind of force. The closest

:21:02.:21:06.

thing to a powerful Remain party is the SNP which by definition has

:21:07.:21:10.

limited appeal south of the border. It is hard. The realignment. We

:21:11.:21:17.

don't know if it is permanent or how dramatic it will be, but there is

:21:18.:21:20.

some kind of realignment going on. At the moment, it seems to be a

:21:21.:21:25.

realignment that by and large is to the benefit of the Conservatives.

:21:26.:21:30.

Without a doubt, and that can be directly attributed to the

:21:31.:21:33.

disappearance of Ukip from the political landscape. I have been

:21:34.:21:36.

saying since the referendum that I thought Ukip was finished. They

:21:37.:21:40.

still seem to be staggering on under the illusion... Some people may have

:21:41.:21:45.

picked up on Nigel Farage this morning saying that Ukip still had a

:21:46.:21:49.

strong role to play until Brexit actually happens. But I think it's

:21:50.:21:53.

very, very hard to convince the voters of that, because they feel

:21:54.:21:57.

that, with the result of the referendum, that was Ukip's job

:21:58.:22:00.

done. And those votes are not going to delay the party -- to the Labour

:22:01.:22:05.

Party because of the flaws with Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, they are

:22:06.:22:11.

shifting to the Tories. I agree. The key issue was the referendum. It has

:22:12.:22:15.

produced a fundamental change that few predicted at the time it was

:22:16.:22:20.

called. Most fundamental of all, it has brought about a unity in the

:22:21.:22:24.

Conservative Party. With some exceptions, but they are now off

:22:25.:22:27.

editing the Evening Standard and other things! This is now a party

:22:28.:22:33.

united around Brexit. Since 1992, the Tories have been split over

:22:34.:22:39.

Europe, at times fatally so. The referendum, in ways that David

:22:40.:22:42.

Cameron did not anticipate, has brought about a united front for

:22:43.:22:47.

this election. In a way, this is a sequel to the referendum, because

:22:48.:22:51.

it's about Brexit but we still don't know what form Brexit is going to

:22:52.:22:54.

take. By calling it early, Theresa May has in effect got another go at

:22:55.:23:00.

a kind of Brexit referendum without knowing what Brexit is, with a

:23:01.:23:04.

united Tory party behind her. We shall see if it is a blip or a

:23:05.:23:06.

long-term trend in British politics. Now let's turn to Labour's big

:23:07.:23:10.

campaign announcement today, and that was the promise of no

:23:11.:23:12.

income tax rise for those earning less than ?80,000 -

:23:13.:23:15.

which of course means those earning more than that could

:23:16.:23:18.

face an increase. Here's Shadow Chancellor John

:23:19.:23:19.

McDonell on the BBC earlier. What we are saying today, anyone

:23:20.:23:29.

earning below ?80,000, we will guarantee you will not have an

:23:30.:23:34.

increase in income tax, VAT or national insurance contributions.

:23:35.:23:37.

For those above 80,000, we are asking them to pay a modest bit more

:23:38.:23:41.

to fund our public services. A modest bit. You will see it will be

:23:42.:23:46.

a modest increase. Talking about modest increases, so we can have a

:23:47.:23:52.

society which we believe everyone shares the benefits of.

:23:53.:23:55.

We're joined now by Shadow Justice Secretary Richard Burgon, in Leeds.

:23:56.:24:00.

Mr McDonnell stressed that for those earning over 80,000, they would be

:24:01.:24:07.

paying more but it would be modest. He used the word modest 45 times.

:24:08.:24:11.

But there is only 1.2 million of them. -- 4-5 times. So that would

:24:12.:24:18.

not raise much money. This is about the key part of this tax policy for

:24:19.:24:24.

the many, not the few. We are saying that low earners and middle earners

:24:25.:24:28.

won't be paying more tax under a Labour government, which is not a

:24:29.:24:32.

policy the Conservatives have committed to yet. As John McDonnell

:24:33.:24:36.

also said in his interview earlier, if there is a tax rise on the top 5%

:24:37.:24:43.

of earners, earning over ?80,000, it would be a modest rise. I am trying

:24:44.:24:48.

to work out what that would mean in terms of money. If it is too modest,

:24:49.:24:55.

you don't raise much. What will happen is the Labour Party's

:24:56.:24:57.

manifesto, published in the next couple of weeks, wilfully set out

:24:58.:25:03.

and cost it. I can't make an announcement now. -- will fully set

:25:04.:25:12.

out and cost it. Moving on to the local elections, Mr Corbyn says he

:25:13.:25:15.

is closing the gap with the Tories. What evidence is there? John Curtis

:25:16.:25:21.

just said there was an 11% gap in the results, Labour 11% behind. The

:25:22.:25:27.

polls before that suggested Labour were anything up to 20% behind. Was

:25:28.:25:32.

it a great day for Labour? Certainly not. Is there a lot to do between

:25:33.:25:38.

now and June? Sure, but we are relishing every moment of that.

:25:39.:25:43.

Comparing equivalent elections in 2013, the Tories increased their

:25:44.:25:47.

share of the vote by 13%. You lost 2%. That's a net of 15%. In what way

:25:48.:25:57.

is that closing the gap? We have gone down to 11 points behind. Am I

:25:58.:26:04.

satisfied? Certainly not. Is Labour satisfied? Certainly not. A week is

:26:05.:26:08.

a long time in politics, 4-5 weeks is even longer. The local elections

:26:09.:26:12.

are over, the general election campaign is starting, and we want to

:26:13.:26:17.

put out there the policies that will improve the lives of low and middle

:26:18.:26:21.

income earners. And also many people looking to be well off as well. You

:26:22.:26:27.

lost 133 seats in Scotland. Are you closing the gap in Scotland? The

:26:28.:26:33.

journey back for Labour in Scotland, I always thought, wouldn't be an

:26:34.:26:36.

easy one. Since the council election results and Scotland that we are

:26:37.:26:41.

comparing this to, there has been an independence referendum and the

:26:42.:26:45.

terrible results for Labour in the 2015 general election. So it is a

:26:46.:26:49.

challenge, but one hundreds of thousands of Labour members are

:26:50.:26:53.

determined to meet. That is why we're talking about bread and butter

:26:54.:26:56.

policies to make people's lives better. These local elections took

:26:57.:27:03.

place midtown. Normally mid-term was the worst time for a government. --

:27:04.:27:10.

took place midterm. And the best for an opposition. That is a feature of

:27:11.:27:15.

British politics. So why did you lose 382 councillors in a midterm

:27:16.:27:20.

election? As Andy Burnham said when he gave his acceptance speech after

:27:21.:27:25.

his terrific first ballot result win in Manchester, it was an evening of

:27:26.:27:31.

mixed results for Labour. Generally bad, wasn't it? Why did you lose all

:27:32.:27:35.

of these councillors midterm? It is not a welcome result for Labour, I

:27:36.:27:40.

am not going to be deluded. But what I and the Labour Party are focused

:27:41.:27:44.

on is the next four weeks. And how we are going to put across policies

:27:45.:27:49.

like free school meals for primary school children, ?10 an hour minimum

:27:50.:27:54.

wage, the pledge not to increase tax for low and middle earners, 95% of

:27:55.:28:00.

earners in this country. And saving the NHS from privatisation and

:28:01.:28:03.

funding it properly. These are just some of the policies, including by

:28:04.:28:07.

the way a boost in carers' allowance, that will make the lives

:28:08.:28:12.

of people in Britain better off. Labour are for the many, not for the

:28:13.:28:19.

few. But people like from political parties aspiring to government is to

:28:20.:28:23.

be united and to be singing from the same song sheet among the leaders.

:28:24.:28:27.

You mentioned Andy Burnham. Why did he not join Mr Corbyn when Jeremy

:28:28.:28:31.

Corbyn went to the rally in Manchester on Friday to celebrate

:28:32.:28:37.

his victory? First of all, Andy Burnham did a radio interview

:28:38.:28:40.

straight after his great victory in which he said Jeremy Corbyn helped

:28:41.:28:44.

him to win votes in that election. Why didn't he turn up? As to the

:28:45.:28:51.

reason Andy Burnham wasn't there at the meeting Jeremy was doing in

:28:52.:28:57.

Manchester, it was because, I understand, Andy was booked into

:28:58.:29:00.

celebrate his victory with his family that night. I don't begrudge

:29:01.:29:04.

him that and hopefully you don't. The leader has made the effort to

:29:05.:29:07.

travel to Manchester to celebrate one of the few victories you enjoyed

:29:08.:29:11.

on Thursday, surely you would join the leader and celebrate together?

:29:12.:29:17.

Well, I don't regard, and I am sure you don't, Andy Burnham a nice time

:29:18.:29:21.

with his family... -- I don't begrudge. He made it clear Jeremy

:29:22.:29:27.

Corbyn assisted him. I can see you are not convinced yourself. I am

:29:28.:29:35.

convinced. The outgoing Labour leader in Derbyshire lost his seat

:29:36.:29:40.

on Thursday, you lost Derbyshire, which was a surprise in itself... He

:29:41.:29:45.

said that genuine party supporters said they were not voting Labour

:29:46.:29:49.

while you have Jeremy Corbyn as leader. Are you hearing that on the

:29:50.:29:56.

doorstep too? I have been knocking on hundreds of doors this week in my

:29:57.:30:00.

constituency and elsewhere. And of course, you never get every single

:30:01.:30:04.

voter thinking the leader of any political party is the greatest

:30:05.:30:10.

thing since sliced bread. But it's only on a minority of doorsteps that

:30:11.:30:14.

people are criticising the Labour leader. Most people aren't even

:30:15.:30:19.

talking about these questions. Most people are talking about Jeremy

:30:20.:30:24.

Corbyn's policies, free primary school meals, ?10 an hour minimum

:30:25.:30:30.

wage. Also policies such as paternity pay, maternity pay and

:30:31.:30:33.

sickness pay for the self-employed, that have been hard-pressed under

:30:34.:30:37.

this government. So I don't recognise that pitch of despondency,

:30:38.:30:40.

but I understand that in different areas, in local elections,

:30:41.:30:46.

perspectives are different. That was Derbyshire. The outgoing Labour

:30:47.:30:50.

leader of Nottinghamshire County Council said there was concern on

:30:51.:30:53.

the doorstep about whether Jeremy Corbyn was the right person to lead

:30:54.:30:58.

the Labour Party, and even Rotherham, loyal to Mr Corbyn, won

:30:59.:31:03.

the mail contest in Liverpool, he said that the Labour leader was more

:31:04.:31:09.

might on the doorstep. -- the mayor contest. Does that explain some of

:31:10.:31:13.

the performance on Thursday? I am confident that in the next four

:31:14.:31:17.

weeks, when we get into coverage on television, that people will see

:31:18.:31:22.

further the kind of open leadership Jeremy provides. In contrast to

:31:23.:31:26.

Theresa May's refusal to meet ordinary people. She came to my

:31:27.:31:30.

constituency and I don't think that a single person who lives here. And

:31:31.:31:34.

also she is ducking the chance to debate with Jeremy Corbyn on TV. She

:31:35.:31:37.

should do it and let the people decide. I don't know why she won't.

:31:38.:31:44.

Finally, the Labour mantra is that you are the party of the ordinary

:31:45.:31:49.

people, why is it the case that among what advertisers call C2s, D

:31:50.:32:02.

and E', how can you on the pulse of that social group, how can you do

:32:03.:32:08.

that? Our policy is to assist, protect and improve the living

:32:09.:32:12.

standards of people in those groups and our policy is to protect the

:32:13.:32:15.

living standards of the majority... They do not seem to be convinced? We

:32:16.:32:19.

have four weeks to convince them and I believe that we will. Thank you

:32:20.:32:22.

for coming onto the programme. But the wooden spoon from Thursday's

:32:23.:32:24.

elections undoubtedly went to Ukip. Four years ago the party

:32:25.:32:30.

won its best ever local government performance,

:32:31.:32:33.

but this time its support just Ukip's share of the vote

:32:34.:32:35.

plunging by as much as 18 points, most obviously

:32:36.:32:38.

benefiting the Conservatives. So is it all over for

:32:39.:32:42.

the self-styled people's army? Well we're joined now

:32:43.:32:44.

by the party's leader in the Welsh Assembly,

:32:45.:32:46.

Neil Hamilton, he's in Cardiff. Neil Hamilton, welcome. Ukip

:32:47.:32:57.

finished local elections gaining the same number of councillors as the

:32:58.:33:01.

Rubbish Party, one. That sums up your prospects, doesn't

:33:02.:33:07.

it? Rubbish? We have been around a long time and seemed that I'd go

:33:08.:33:13.

out, go in again, we will keep calm and carry on. We are in a phoney

:33:14.:33:17.

war, negotiations on Brexit have not started but what we know from

:33:18.:33:21.

Theresa May is that in seven years, as Home Secretary and Prime

:33:22.:33:25.

Minister, she has completely failed to control immigration which was one

:33:26.:33:29.

of the great driving forces behind the Brexit result. I'm not really

:33:30.:33:35.

looking for any great success in immigration from the Tories, and a

:33:36.:33:38.

lot of people who have previously voted for Ukip will be back in our

:33:39.:33:43.

part of the field again. They don't seem to care about that at the

:33:44.:33:48.

moment, your party lost 147 council seats. You gain one. It is time to

:33:49.:33:54.

shut up shop, isn't it? You are right, the voters are not focusing

:33:55.:33:58.

on other domestic issues at the moment. They have made up their

:33:59.:34:01.

minds going into these negotiations in Brussels, Theresa May, as Prime

:34:02.:34:06.

Minister, needs as much support as she can get. I think they are wrong

:34:07.:34:11.

in this respect, it would be better to have a cohort of Ukip MPs to back

:34:12.:34:17.

her up. She was greatly helped by the intervention of Mr Juncker last

:34:18.:34:23.

week as well, the stupidity in how the European Commission has tried to

:34:24.:34:26.

bully the British government, in those circumstances the British

:34:27.:34:29.

people will react in one way going the opposite way to what the

:34:30.:34:35.

Brussels establishment one. She has been fortunate as an acute tactician

:34:36.:34:38.

in having the election now. I struggle to see the way back for

:34:39.:34:42.

your party. You aren't a threat to the Tories in the south. Ukip voters

:34:43.:34:47.

are flocking to the Tories in the south. You don't threaten Labour in

:34:48.:34:52.

the north. It is the Tories who threaten Labour now in the north.

:34:53.:34:55.

There is no room to progress, is there? The reality will be is that

:34:56.:35:01.

once we are back on the domestic agenda again, and the Brexit

:35:02.:35:06.

negotiations are concluded, we will know what the outcome is. And the

:35:07.:35:11.

focus will be on bread and butter issues. We have all sorts of

:35:12.:35:15.

policies in our programme which other parties cannot match us on.

:35:16.:35:21.

The talk is putting up taxes to help the health service, we would scrap

:35:22.:35:25.

the foreign aid budget and put another ?8 billion in the health

:35:26.:35:27.

service, no other party says that. These policies would be popular with

:35:28.:35:33.

the ordinary working person. Is Paul Nuttall to blame on the meltdown of

:35:34.:35:38.

what happened, no matter who is leader? These are cosmic forces

:35:39.:35:41.

beyond the control of any individual at the moment, it is certainly not

:35:42.:35:45.

Paul Nuttall's .com he's been in the job for six months and in half that

:35:46.:35:51.

time he was fighting a by-election -- certainly not Paul Nuttall's

:35:52.:35:56.

fault. We have two become more professional than we have been

:35:57.:35:59.

recently. It has not been a brilliant year for Ukip one way or

:36:00.:36:05.

another, as you know, but there are prospects, in future, that are very

:36:06.:36:08.

rosy. I do not believe that the Tories will deliver on other

:36:09.:36:12.

promises that they are now making. The Welsh assembly elections are not

:36:13.:36:16.

until 2021, you are a member of that, but at that point you will not

:36:17.:36:20.

have any MEPs, because we will be out on the timetable. With this

:36:21.:36:26.

current showing he will have no end', you could be Ukip's most

:36:27.:36:33.

senior elected representative. That would be a turnout for the books! --

:36:34.:36:41.

no elected MPs. The Tories are not promoting the policies that I

:36:42.:36:44.

believe them. You will see that in the Ukip manifesto when it is

:36:45.:36:50.

shortly publish... Leaders talk mainly about the male genital

:36:51.:37:00.

mutilation and is -- female and burqas. No, when the manifesto

:37:01.:37:05.

launched, we have a lot of policies, I spoke moments ago about it, but

:37:06.:37:11.

also on foreign aid. Scrapping green taxes, to cut people's electricity

:37:12.:37:16.

bills by ?300 per year on average. There are a lot of popular policies

:37:17.:37:24.

that we have. We will hear more from that in the weeks to come.

:37:25.:37:28.

Paul Nuttall said "If the price of written leaving the year is a Tory

:37:29.:37:33.

advance after taking up this patriarch course, it is a price that

:37:34.:37:38.

Ukip is prepared to pay". That sounds like a surrender statement?

:37:39.:37:42.

It is a statement of fact, the main agenda is to get out of the EU and

:37:43.:37:48.

have full Brexit. That is why Ukip came into existence 20 years ago.

:37:49.:37:54.

When it is achieved, we go back to the normal political battle lines.

:37:55.:37:58.

Niall Hamilton in Cardiff, thank you very much for joining us.

:37:59.:38:02.

It's just gone 11.35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:38:03.:38:04.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:38:05.:38:07.

Hello, I'm Martyn Oates. we'll be talking about the French

:38:08.:38:20.

Coming up on the Sunday Politics here in the South West: We may be

:38:21.:38:24.

in a general election campaign, but that's not stopping a Tory

:38:25.:38:26.

revolt against their own government's plan

:38:27.:38:27.

We have every Conservative member of Parliament in Devon writing

:38:28.:38:36.

to the Prime Minister saying something has to happen

:38:37.:38:38.

And for the next 20 minutes, I'm joined by Labour Parliamentary

:38:39.:38:44.

candidate Ben Bradshaw and Conservative

:38:45.:38:45.

Welcome both of you to the programme.

:38:46.:38:48.

On Tuesday, the Prime Minister was campaigning

:38:49.:38:50.

I asked her whether a Conservative Government would replace

:38:51.:38:54.

the hundreds of millions of pounds of EU funding Cornwall would have

:38:55.:38:57.

received from 2020 on, if Britain were still a member.

:38:58.:39:05.

Well, this is a really important election, it's the most crucial

:39:06.:39:08.

election I think the country has faced in my lifetime,

:39:09.:39:10.

because it is about how we take this country through Brexit and beyond,

:39:11.:39:13.

how we ensure that we are building a stronger...

:39:14.:39:15.

Yes, I'm going to come onto the funding issue.

:39:16.:39:20.

But it is not just about the issue of funding, it is about a modern

:39:21.:39:23.

industrial strategy, it is about ensuring

:39:24.:39:26.

we are promoting and encouraging the growth of the economy

:39:27.:39:28.

across the whole of the United Kingdom, including Cornwall.

:39:29.:39:38.

As somebody said on twitter, that is in no then. We have guaranteed the

:39:39.:39:52.

European funding... And tell 2020? Yes. The EU haven't guaranteed that

:39:53.:39:56.

it continues beyond that date. If you look at the state of the Cornish

:39:57.:40:00.

economy, and economic miracle aside... We are than a third tranche

:40:01.:40:09.

of EU funding, and I am actually really angry about people talking

:40:10.:40:15.

Cornwall down. Every sect to the Government's industrial strategy, we

:40:16.:40:19.

will see the economy grow, and we can actually stand up for ourselves

:40:20.:40:24.

in Carmel, rather than expecting hand-outs are the time. We will be

:40:25.:40:30.

free of the shackles of the European union rules, money will be able to

:40:31.:40:34.

be spent in Carmel that will actually enable the economy to come

:40:35.:40:43.

up to the rest of the country. The Government presumably has the option

:40:44.:40:49.

to say, we don't need Brussels to send money to Connell, we will do

:40:50.:40:57.

it. I noticed the Prime Minister avoided your question. You weren't

:40:58.:41:01.

one of their journalist locked out of the room and what was a calamity

:41:02.:41:06.

is's calamitous visit for this by Minister. We know what the Tories

:41:07.:41:12.

will face. With Labour invested the equivalent sum of money? The Tories

:41:13.:41:18.

are heading for a landslide. If anybody in this country cares about

:41:19.:41:25.

having decent book's decent opposition. They have to do whatever

:41:26.:41:26.

they can. So that is in no as well. Thursday's local election results

:41:27.:41:33.

made comforting reading for the Conservatives in all four

:41:34.:41:35.

south west counties. The Tories retained control

:41:36.:41:37.

of Dorset, Somerset and Devon county councils and replaced the Lib Dems

:41:38.:41:39.

as the biggest party In a moment we'll be joined

:41:40.:41:42.

by a Lib Dem to discuss what all this means for the General Election,

:41:43.:41:46.

but first here's Ben Woolvin On his way up, but tinged

:41:47.:41:49.

with disappointment. I just been told I'm

:41:50.:41:53.

second, not first. The Conservative leader

:41:54.:41:55.

of Devon County Council, miffed he didn't top

:41:56.:41:57.

the winners' table. But his 2000-odd votes were more

:41:58.:42:01.

than enough to secure his seat, and he sits supreme

:42:02.:42:05.

with an increased majority. John Hart's personal victory

:42:06.:42:10.

the envy of his fellow Conservative council leaders

:42:11.:42:14.

in Dorset and Somerset... I ran a positive county

:42:15.:42:18.

council campaign. ..who both lost their

:42:19.:42:21.

seats to the Lib Dems. I leave a positive

:42:22.:42:25.

legacy for Somerset. But elsewhere in Somerset

:42:26.:42:31.

and Dorset, more gains for the Tories, leaving the party

:42:32.:42:33.

in control of both counties. The Conservatives replaced

:42:34.:42:39.

the Lib Dems as the biggest party in Cornwall and fancy their chances

:42:40.:42:42.

of leading a coalition here. We are going to have to wait

:42:43.:42:47.

for everyone to sit down, for the Conservative Party to sit

:42:48.:42:50.

down, discuss where our numbers are, and just look at what is going

:42:51.:42:54.

to be best for Cornwall, and who we are going to be

:42:55.:42:57.

doing business with, if we are going to be

:42:58.:43:00.

doing with anyone. Back in Devon, the fall

:43:01.:43:03.

of another big name, this time a Lib Dem,

:43:04.:43:06.

the former MP Richard Younger-Ross, who says his defeat in these local

:43:07.:43:11.

elections means he won't be There was little sign of the fight

:43:12.:43:14.

back the Lib Dems had hoped for, but for those in Cornwall

:43:15.:43:22.

who remember the pain of 2015, I just can't believe

:43:23.:43:26.

it, to be honest. I got 580-something

:43:27.:43:40.

last time in 2013. Optimism in the Ukip ranks too,

:43:41.:43:44.

despite the party's total wipe-out. I honestly don't believe

:43:45.:43:49.

Ukip is finished. We will bounce back, but at

:43:50.:43:53.

the moment the priority is Brexit. But a party that delivers

:43:54.:44:00.

on its promise - we'll still be As for Labour, its Exeter stronghold

:44:01.:44:05.

remained impregnable, a successful blends those

:44:06.:44:12.

in Cornwall are desperate to taste. Of course, it is in the tea

:44:13.:44:17.

room that you hear And plenty of talk today

:44:18.:44:22.

about what this all this means I even overheard some Labour

:44:23.:44:26.

activists saying they reckon they are in with a chance in St

:44:27.:44:29.

Ives. I have been a Labour MP in Cornwall,

:44:30.:44:32.

and we have a history, Is that going to happen

:44:33.:44:37.

this time, though? I'll be honest, I think that is

:44:38.:44:41.

unlikely, but you never know. But it's the Lib Dems who really

:44:42.:44:45.

fancy their chances in west Cornwall, though these local results

:44:46.:44:49.

projected onto the St Ives constituency don't give

:44:50.:44:52.

the Lib Dems enough on an MP. Their fate could rest

:44:53.:44:58.

in the hands of the Greens. And still rumours here of a deal

:44:59.:45:01.

between the two parties. To discuss as we are joined by the

:45:02.:45:14.

Lib Dem parliamentary candidate for a Yeovil Jo Roundell Green. He said

:45:15.:45:24.

there is little sign of a Lib Dem revival. The reality as it was

:45:25.:45:27.

pretty disastrous. An overall loss of eight seats. If I looked a

:45:28.:45:33.

Yeovil, we really did very well. We went and with six and became it with

:45:34.:45:39.

six. We have lost a leader, we have very pleased that John Osman has

:45:40.:45:43.

been replaced, and that is good for Somerset. In Yeovil in itself, we

:45:44.:45:48.

haven't really had any change. It doesn't make much difference. I can

:45:49.:45:52.

see it as a bitter pill to see the leader goal, but the reality as it

:45:53.:45:58.

was a great deal of anticipation, you saw the Lib Dem leader in the

:45:59.:46:03.

south-east a lot. This could be a resurgence. Nothing like it. It is

:46:04.:46:07.

neck and neck at the moment. The difference in the vote is 1% in

:46:08.:46:11.

favour, and really feel we are idea to one. We are going to a nest

:46:12.:46:15.

general election, and voting last week was a very good indicator that

:46:16.:46:20.

people beginning to realise that the Lib Dems are still here, we are

:46:21.:46:24.

fighting back. We are very very strong. Yeovil has always been a

:46:25.:46:28.

very strong Liberal Democrat, with Paddy Ashdown and endeavoured laws,

:46:29.:46:33.

we really strongly believe with our fantastic new candidates and county

:46:34.:46:39.

council... How many seats do you think you will take in the

:46:40.:46:43.

south-west? I think we could easily take three and possibly more. I

:46:44.:46:47.

think people are very unsure, just talking to them on the doorstep you

:46:48.:46:51.

can tell that they don't know what will happen. In the local election,

:46:52.:46:54.

people aren't necessarily focused on the national picture. And the

:46:55.:46:58.

general election the lobby, so if the go this way even and the local,

:46:59.:47:05.

it bodes very badly. I don't think it does. I know we have a very good

:47:06.:47:11.

chance in Yeovil, where we work extremely hard, and we need to fight

:47:12.:47:12.

for what we have locally. Our for what we have locally. Our

:47:13.:47:17.

aerospace engineer, R schools and NHS. Exeter again produced very good

:47:18.:47:23.

Labour result. The party seems to Labour result. The party seems to

:47:24.:47:29.

have a better the Midas touch there. Elsewhere, it was a terrible night

:47:30.:47:33.

for Labour. I was delighted that we held all of our seats in Exeter,

:47:34.:47:35.

although there was a swing to the although there was a swing to the

:47:36.:47:39.

Conservatives so we are not at all, pleasing given the results elsewhere

:47:40.:47:47.

were so bad fellas. Also, the results confirm what the opinion

:47:48.:47:49.

polls show, which is that the Conservatives are heading for up

:47:50.:47:54.

probable landslide. I think everybody fears that prospect. This

:47:55.:48:01.

extreme hard Brexit, outside the EU, people need to do what ever they can

:48:02.:48:04.

if they want a decent opposition after this election should be

:48:05.:48:07.

rallying to those opposition parties. Sheryll will say, all, nor

:48:08.:48:18.

we are not romping to victory. This is all about who covers the country

:48:19.:48:24.

on the basis of these results, it is a mountain. I agree and that is what

:48:25.:48:32.

I have just said. As you conceding defeat then? Do you think there is

:48:33.:48:40.

little prospect... There is one opposition member of Parliament at

:48:41.:48:44.

the moment. It is me and my seat is at risk. People have to vote for MPs

:48:45.:48:48.

who can be an opposition in parliament. It is very bad for

:48:49.:48:53.

democracy and by the health of our democracy given a huge challenge we

:48:54.:48:58.

face of a Brexit, over school funding, not to have a single

:48:59.:49:02.

opposition MP. It would be a disaster. The local election results

:49:03.:49:07.

were encouraging, but we don't take anything for granted. This is why

:49:08.:49:14.

you're talking it down... In message as if you want Theresa May and tag

:49:15.:49:19.

team to have a strong and stable Government and to be fighting a

:49:20.:49:26.

corner and getting the strongest possible deal for Brexit, you have

:49:27.:49:31.

to vote for the Conservative Party. Don't leave it for others. Everyone

:49:32.:49:36.

has to go out there to make sure we have a strong negotiator. It is so

:49:37.:49:42.

important. This election is so important for our country, and we

:49:43.:49:46.

can either have an strong negotiator in Brussels and Theresa May Jamie

:49:47.:49:50.

Caven who will come away with a few crumbs that the EU are prepared to

:49:51.:49:56.

offer those. -- Jeremy Corbin, who will come away. Everyone knows the

:49:57.:50:02.

Conservatives are heading for a landslide. As you happy you that

:50:03.:50:08.

Jeremy Corbyn will go to Brussels and negotiate follows? Are you

:50:09.:50:12.

saying you have confidence and your leader. You have spoken up against

:50:13.:50:19.

them for so long. You happy that time firing, his whole M is to

:50:20.:50:24.

become an opposition leader. Isn't this the problem of the last

:50:25.:50:31.

election. The Conservatives said if you vote for anyone else you will

:50:32.:50:36.

get Ed Miliband. A pupil at focused on the national picture, and this is

:50:37.:50:43.

the message that is pushing again. As like the record got stuck. Tim

:50:44.:50:50.

Farron just wants to be an opposition. I think one has to be

:50:51.:50:59.

realistic. There has to be a strong opposition, because every don't have

:51:00.:51:03.

somebody else scrutinised in what Theresa May is doing, and I worry

:51:04.:51:12.

very much. Can I finish? You need somebody to be watching what is

:51:13.:51:15.

happening to scrutinise the checks and balances. We cannot have Theresa

:51:16.:51:21.

May negotiating and not coming back, and other people watching what she

:51:22.:51:24.

is doing to make sure this is what is best for our country. I also feel

:51:25.:51:28.

very strongly behalf to do the day job. There are still gone to be

:51:29.:51:32.

people who need their benefits, housing. We need to make sure our

:51:33.:51:35.

schools and hospitals are getting the right amount of funding and that

:51:36.:51:39.

rockets fell been continued. I want to move the discussion on to a more

:51:40.:51:45.

specific issue. A reminder at the Bobby if the list of general

:51:46.:51:48.

election candidates... candidates in Yeovil,

:51:49.:51:51.

Exeter, South East Cornwall, and indeed every constituency,

:51:52.:51:53.

on the BBC website. And if you're interested

:51:54.:51:55.

in standing yourself, you've got until Thursday

:51:56.:51:56.

when nominations close. The Government's controversial plans

:51:57.:51:58.

to change school funding has aroused huge opposition

:51:59.:52:00.

within the Conservative Party. Now, in the general election

:52:01.:52:02.

campaign itself, Tory candidates, including seven hoping to be

:52:03.:52:05.

re-elected as MPs in Devon, have attacked the policy and are calling

:52:06.:52:09.

on the Prime Minister I do hereby declare that

:52:10.:52:11.

Tony Inch is duly elected. After all the gladhanding,

:52:12.:52:19.

payback time. If we're going to do

:52:20.:52:23.

a formula that makes sense, we've got to have money that

:52:24.:52:26.

actually increases in Devon, not that two thirds of the children

:52:27.:52:29.

in Devon lose their funding. It's shaping up to be

:52:30.:52:35.

one of the big issues. For years, councils in the region

:52:36.:52:38.

have moaned about how little dosh A new school funding formula

:52:39.:52:44.

that the Government was at pains to stress was fairer promised much,

:52:45.:52:51.

but in reality many schools are now facing a far harder cash crisis.

:52:52.:52:54.

If these proposals are adopted, we're going to have 15 primary

:52:55.:53:01.

schools gaining, 20 losing out, and all the secondary schools

:53:02.:53:04.

in East Devon losing out. This is clearly neither

:53:05.:53:07.

fair nor acceptable. So, fresh from delivering

:53:08.:53:10.

a local Tory landslide, grassroots Conservatives want

:53:11.:53:13.

something in return. I think we will get more money

:53:14.:53:17.

for schools, but how long it is going to take,

:53:18.:53:20.

I don't know. It depends on the Secretary

:53:21.:53:22.

of State for Education, and we understand there's a good

:53:23.:53:25.

chance that that may change. Some think the scale of the Tory

:53:26.:53:30.

victory in Thursday's local elections could

:53:31.:53:33.

lead to complacency... Was a Remainer, and now

:53:34.:53:36.

she is a Brexiteer. ..reducing the chances

:53:37.:53:41.

of any extra school cash I think, really, in County,

:53:42.:53:44.

the people have taken They haven't seen what's coming yet,

:53:45.:53:50.

and the Conservatives don't even But they were rumours

:53:51.:53:55.

last week of a U-turn, with 60 conservative backbench MPs

:53:56.:54:00.

threatening a rebellion. We have every Conservative member

:54:01.:54:05.

of Parliament in Devon writing to the Prime Minister

:54:06.:54:10.

saying something has The formula that was produced,

:54:11.:54:13.

the national formula, It's tough talk, but it

:54:14.:54:18.

doesn't end there. In the hours after the local

:54:19.:54:24.

landslide, another letter from a Devon headteacher urging

:54:25.:54:27.

parents to put pressure on Tories I think Labour had made an

:54:28.:54:45.

announcement, they will put more money into schools. I think it is 3

:54:46.:54:53.

haul schools are suffering. I don't haul schools are suffering. I don't

:54:54.:54:56.

think you addressing the issue of redistribution. The funding issue is

:54:57.:55:02.

pretty marginal one compared with the overall cuts. Overall cuts are

:55:03.:55:09.

7% at. My skills in Exeter are losing hundreds of thousands of

:55:10.:55:13.

pounds a year now. There haven't they are teachers and classroom

:55:14.:55:17.

assistants. The Conservatives in Parliament have had several

:55:18.:55:20.

opportunities to vote against us. We have had debates and vote against

:55:21.:55:24.

it, they have never done anything. Now that as an election, they are

:55:25.:55:29.

may do something. Not about the overall cuts, just about before

:55:30.:55:33.

Miller. There are 300,000 more pupils and good understanding

:55:34.:55:36.

schools in the south-west and they were in 2010. ?3 billion has gone

:55:37.:55:47.

into schools in the south-west through the pupil premium. You

:55:48.:55:52.

saying they don't deserve any money? 3 million more apprenticeships have

:55:53.:55:55.

been found since the Conservatives came in to Government. And Ben's

:55:56.:55:59.

party could have done something to party could have done something to

:56:00.:56:02.

address the failure of funding as you when they were in Government and

:56:03.:56:05.

they didn't act. Somebody has to grasp the nettle. Somebody,... There

:56:06.:56:17.

was a port in the Evening Standard that George Osborne treated out.

:56:18.:56:22.

Tory candidates everywhere and unhappy. I have to say to you that I

:56:23.:56:26.

met with Justin Greening and the last Parliament, we all met with a.

:56:27.:56:31.

She hasn't made any firm announcement yet. There

:56:32.:56:36.

consultation, and she wants to take consultation, and she wants to take

:56:37.:56:39.

it very seriously before she makes an announcement. Do you agree with

:56:40.:56:45.

the Devon candidate and former MPs who say this needs to change? I am

:56:46.:56:49.

waiting to see what the announcement adds. But we know what it means. She

:56:50.:57:01.

has consulted on their present proposals and hasn't made any

:57:02.:57:04.

announcement. It is all about fairness. It is wrong that skills

:57:05.:57:10.

and Westminster get twice as much as children and my constituency at the

:57:11.:57:13.

moment. Something has to happen and when you realign something, you

:57:14.:57:22.

always get winners and losers. You always get winners and losers. But

:57:23.:57:27.

despite rejigging the funding formula when you are cutting the

:57:28.:57:31.

budget is madness. By 300,000 pupils... Please let me and set

:57:32.:57:40.

Martyn's question. They Conservative MPs at Westminster have had numerous

:57:41.:57:43.

virginity is to stop this. They could have voted with us but never

:57:44.:57:49.

has. They are pretending it is an issue because it as an election on.

:57:50.:57:53.

It is actually the overall cuts to our schools. We invested and schools

:57:54.:57:57.

and that is what they should be doing. Yes I know, at the present

:57:58.:58:04.

proposals you right or wrong? I can't say yes or no because I

:58:05.:58:07.

haven't seen the final proposals. We will have to leave it there.

:58:08.:58:09.

Now our regular round-up of the political week in 60 seconds.

:58:10.:58:16.

Parts of north and south-east Cornwall joined St Ives in voting

:58:17.:58:19.

for new restrictions on second homes.

:58:20.:58:22.

It would be nice to see families back in the village again.

:58:23.:58:27.

Devon City Council moves forward with plans to give fishermen free

:58:28.:58:29.

GPS-equipped life jackets, and the EU is been asked to put up

:58:30.:58:34.

the hundreds and thousands of pounds needed to buy the next batch.

:58:35.:58:37.

If we could take that pain away from everything by keeping

:58:38.:58:40.

the fishermen alive, then the benefits are long-reaching

:58:41.:58:42.

Labour's candidate in Camborne and Redruth at the last general

:58:43.:58:47.

election, Michael Foster, threatens to stand against party

:58:48.:58:51.

leader Jeremy Corbyn as an independent on June 8th.

:58:52.:58:56.

Seagulls watching the PM's chips are hungry for some limelight...

:58:57.:59:00.

The Conservatives really pushed back and destroyed the Liberal Democrats.

:59:01.:59:05.

..while those feeding seagulls in parts of East Devon

:59:06.:59:08.

There definitely needs to be something more stringent to stop

:59:09.:59:13.

You're obviously both delighted to hear about the Seagull fine, but I

:59:14.:59:29.

am keen to talk about the second homes issue. To be clear, this is

:59:30.:59:34.

restricting new-build homes to permanent residents. Do you agree

:59:35.:59:39.

with that? Very sensible in pockets when there's a problem, but of

:59:40.:59:42.

course the main prizes as affordability. People cannot afford

:59:43.:59:47.

to get on the property ladder, they can't afford the high level of

:59:48.:59:51.

private rents. We need a much better housing market so local people can

:59:52.:59:57.

afford both to buy and to rent. It is a problem and holiday areas, and

:59:58.:00:01.

that is a good solution, but it has not gone to solve the overall

:00:02.:00:07.

problem. I am really pleased that the neighbourhood plans have started

:00:08.:00:10.

to come forward. It has taken too long. They were introduced in 2011,

:00:11.:00:16.

I think it is right that we start looking at new belt so that people

:00:17.:00:21.

aren't building second homes as new-builds and that will hopefully

:00:22.:00:25.

help people to get on the housing ladder. The one thing that we must

:00:26.:00:30.

do, which is where we started this discussion, is make sure the economy

:00:31.:00:34.

in places like Connell improves so that wages improve and young people

:00:35.:00:41.

can actually afford to get. You would need a massive improvement in

:00:42.:00:46.

the economy to start closing the gap. Because we have gone for the

:00:47.:00:50.

last 12 years relying on European hand-outs. Just quickly, then, do

:00:51.:00:56.

you have any advice for Michael Foster standing against Jeremy

:00:57.:01:01.

Corbyn? No. None at all. You wouldn't welcome the development?

:01:02.:01:06.

People have got to do what they think is right and left, that is

:01:07.:01:08.

what I always try to do. That's the Sunday Politics

:01:09.:01:10.

in the South West. housing associations and investment,

:01:11.:01:15.

but we have run out of time, thank you. Andrew.

:01:16.:01:25.

Four weeks to go until polling day on the 8th of June, what will the

:01:26.:01:32.

party strategies be for the remaining four weeks? Let's begin

:01:33.:01:36.

with the Conservatives. Do they just try to continue to play it safe for

:01:37.:01:42.

four weeks? Yes, with this important qualification. Theresa May Corp this

:01:43.:01:46.

election to get her own personal mandate partly, partly because she

:01:47.:01:50.

thought she would win big but to get her own personal mandate. Therefore,

:01:51.:01:56.

she needs to define it. In her own interests and to do with

:01:57.:02:01.

accountability to the country. So clearly, they will not take risks

:02:02.:02:05.

when they are so far ahead in the polls. What they do say in the

:02:06.:02:06.

manifesto matters in terms of the space that she has in

:02:07.:02:13.

the coming years to define her leadership against David Cameron 's.

:02:14.:02:18.

She is a free figure, partly on the basis of what she says as to how big

:02:19.:02:23.

she wins. They cannot just play it safe and repeat their mantra of

:02:24.:02:33.

strong and stable leadership, if she is going to claim her own mandate,

:02:34.:02:38.

they need the top policy? Yes, and what is unusual about this is that

:02:39.:02:42.

the manifesto matters far more because of what they need to do with

:02:43.:02:46.

it afterwards, than in terms of whether it is going to win anybody

:02:47.:02:50.

over now. Clearly, the strategy is yes, we do have two layout out a few

:02:51.:02:54.

things, there are interesting debates as to whether, for example,

:02:55.:02:58.

they will still commit to this ambition of reducing immigration to

:02:59.:03:01.

the tens of thousands, we do not know the answer yet. It is a

:03:02.:03:06.

question on whether she is setting herself up for difficulties later

:03:07.:03:12.

on. It will be a short manifesto, I would venture to guess? It is in her

:03:13.:03:17.

interests to be as noncommittal as possible, that argues for a short

:03:18.:03:22.

manifesto but what does strike me about the Conservative campaign,

:03:23.:03:26.

aside from the ambiguity on policy, is how personal it is. I think

:03:27.:03:30.

Theresa May, in her most recent speech, referred to "My local

:03:31.:03:35.

candidates", rather than Parliamentary candidates, very much

:03:36.:03:38.

framing it as a presidential candidate in France or the USA. Not

:03:39.:03:45.

a rational on her part. Everything I hear from the MPs on the ground and

:03:46.:03:50.

the focus groups being done by the parties, is that a big chunk of the

:03:51.:03:53.

population personally identify with her. If you can wrap up Middle

:03:54.:03:57.

England into a physical object and embody it in a person, it would be

:03:58.:04:02.

her. Although Jeremy Corbyn's unpopularity accounts for a big

:04:03.:04:06.

slice of her popularity, she has done a good job of bonding with the

:04:07.:04:10.

public. We never saw that coming! But you may well be right. That is

:04:11.:04:15.

happening now. Labour say it wants the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell

:04:16.:04:19.

to play a more prominent role in the Labour campaign, he was on The

:04:20.:04:22.

Andrew Marr Show this morning and he was asked if he was a Marxist, he

:04:23.:04:25.

denied that he was. It surprised me as I had seen tape from before

:04:26.:04:31.

saying that he was proud of it. Let's look now and then. Are you a

:04:32.:04:39.

Marxist? I believe that there is a lot to learn... Yes or no? I believe

:04:40.:04:43.

that there is a lot to learn from reading capital, that is recommended

:04:44.:04:48.

not only by me but measuring economists as well. I also believe

:04:49.:04:52.

that in the long tradition of the Labour Party... We need to demand

:04:53.:05:00.

systemic change. I am a Marxist. This is a classic crisis of the

:05:01.:05:04.

economy. A capitalist crisis. I've been waiting for this for a

:05:05.:05:10.

generation! That was from about four years ago. No, I'm not a Marxist,

:05:11.:05:15.

yes, I am a Marxist... I've been waiting for the Marxist revolution

:05:16.:05:19.

my whole life... Does this kind of thing matter? Yes, but in fairness,

:05:20.:05:23.

I think he is a really good interviewee. The Shadow Cabinet have

:05:24.:05:29.

untested figures in a national campaign. None have ever been

:05:30.:05:34.

exposed at any level to a national media campaign that they are about

:05:35.:05:38.

to experience. He is the best interviewee. In fairness to him,

:05:39.:05:43.

when he gave that clip four years ago, I bet he never dream that he

:05:44.:05:48.

would be in a senior front bench position. But the background is

:05:49.:05:52.

clear. They are of the left, and I think they would all have described

:05:53.:05:55.

it. Jeremy Corbyn would have done, he is close to being like Tony Benn.

:05:56.:06:02.

There are about four Labour campaign is being fought in this election.

:06:03.:06:08.

Their campaign, the old Shadow Cabinet, campaigning in

:06:09.:06:11.

constituencies, but not identifying with that campaign. There is the

:06:12.:06:16.

former Labour leader Tony Blair. Is it damaging? I think so, if they

:06:17.:06:21.

could be damaged any further, I could see all of the Labour MPs with

:06:22.:06:26.

their heads in their hands. What I am hearing from Labour MPs is that

:06:27.:06:29.

there is not one of them who do not feel that they have a horrendous

:06:30.:06:33.

battle on their hands. These will be very individual local campaigns,

:06:34.:06:37.

where local MPs are winning despite the party leadership and not because

:06:38.:06:41.

of it. Already, talk is turning to what happens next. Is there anyway

:06:42.:06:48.

that Jeremy Corbyn, giving a horrendous set of general election

:06:49.:06:53.

results as many anticipate, may stay on all the same? It is not clear

:06:54.:06:59.

that even if the polls are right, that Mr Corbyn will go? John

:07:00.:07:03.

McDonnell implied it might not be the case but previously, he said it

:07:04.:07:08.

would be. What do you make of reports that the Labour strategy is

:07:09.:07:13.

not, I cannot quite believe I am saying this, not to win seats but

:07:14.:07:16.

maximise a share of the vote. If they do better than Ed Miliband with

:07:17.:07:22.

30.5% of the vote, they believe they live to fight another day? Yes, it

:07:23.:07:27.

reminded me of Tony Benn's speech after the 1983 election where they

:07:28.:07:30.

said as bad as the Parliamentary defeat was there were 8 million

:07:31.:07:35.

votes for socialism. A big section of public opinion voted for that

:07:36.:07:43.

manifesto. I wonder whether that is Corbyn's supporters best chance of

:07:44.:07:48.

holding onto power. Whether they can say that those votes are a platform

:07:49.:07:53.

on which we can build. That said, even moderate Labour MPs and

:07:54.:07:57.

desperate for a quick leadership contest. I hear a lot of them say

:07:58.:08:01.

that they would like to leave it for one year. Maybe have Tom Watson as

:08:02.:08:05.

an acting Labour leader. He would still have a mandate. Give the top

:08:06.:08:09.

party a chance to regroup and get rid of some of its problems and

:08:10.:08:13.

decide where it stands on policy. Most importantly, for potential

:08:14.:08:17.

candidates to show what they are made of, rather than lurching

:08:18.:08:20.

straight into an Yvette Cooper Coronation. 30 seconds on the

:08:21.:08:25.

Liberal Democrats, their strategy was to mop up the Remain vote.

:08:26.:08:33.

Uncertain about the Brexit party in demise. Ukip. The remain as have a

:08:34.:08:40.

dilemma, the little Democrats are not a strong enough vessel with 89

:08:41.:08:46.

MPs to risk all ongoing for them -- the Liberal Democrats. Labour do not

:08:47.:08:51.

know where they stand on Brexit. There is not a robust alternative

:08:52.:08:56.

vessel for what is now a pro-Brexit Conservative Party. At the moment.

:08:57.:09:04.

Four weeks to go, but not for France...

:09:05.:09:06.

France has been voting since early this morning, and we should get

:09:07.:09:09.

a first estimate of who will be the country's next President

:09:10.:09:12.

Just to warn you there are some flashing images coming up.

:09:13.:09:16.

The choice in France is between a centre-left liberal

:09:17.:09:18.

reformer Emmanuel Macron and a right-wing nationalist

:09:19.:09:19.

Marine Le Pen - both have been casting their votes this morning.

:09:20.:09:22.

The two candidates topped a field of 11 presidential

:09:23.:09:24.

hopefuls in the first round of elections last month.

:09:25.:09:27.

The campaign has been marked by its unpredictability,

:09:28.:09:29.

and in a final twist on Friday evening, just before

:09:30.:09:35.

campaigning officially ended, Mr Macron's En Marche! group said

:09:36.:09:37.

it had been the victim of a "massive" hack,

:09:38.:09:42.

with a trove of documents released online.

:09:43.:09:45.

The Macron team said real documents were mixed up with fake ones,

:09:46.:09:48.

and electoral authorities warned media and the public that spreading

:09:49.:09:50.

details of the leaks would breach strict election rules.

:09:51.:10:01.

I'm joined now from Paris by the journalist

:10:02.:10:02.

As I left Paris recently, everybody told me that there was the consensus

:10:03.:10:16.

that Mr Macron would win, and win pretty comfortable you. Is there any

:10:17.:10:21.

reason to doubt that? -- pretty comfortably. I don't think so, there

:10:22.:10:26.

have been so many people left and right, former candidates who have

:10:27.:10:31.

decided that it was more important to vote for Macron, even if it was

:10:32.:10:35.

agreed with him, then run the risk of having Marine Le Pen as

:10:36.:10:40.

president. I think the spread is now 20 points, 60% to Macron, 40% to Le

:10:41.:10:45.

Pen. So outside of the margin of error that it would take something

:10:46.:10:51.

huge for this to be observed. If the polls are right and Mr Macron wins,

:10:52.:10:55.

he has to put together a government, and in May there is a Coronation,

:10:56.:11:02.

then he faces parliamentary elections in June and could face a

:11:03.:11:07.

fractured parliament where he does not have a clear majority for his

:11:08.:11:12.

reforms. He could then faced difficulties in getting his

:11:13.:11:17.

programme through? I think that right now, with how things are

:11:18.:11:21.

looking, considering you have one half of the Republican party, the

:11:22.:11:26.

Conservative Party, they are making clear sides, not only that they want

:11:27.:11:32.

to support Macron but are supporting him actively. It means looking at

:11:33.:11:38.

the equivalent of the German party, the great coalition. Depending on

:11:39.:11:42.

how many seats established parties keep in the house committee may very

:11:43.:11:45.

well have a Republican Prime Minister, rather than having an

:11:46.:11:58.

adversarial MP, he may have someone who is relatively unknown outside of

:11:59.:12:05.

France, and a young woman. Contended that lost the Parez mayorship three

:12:06.:12:11.

years ago. She is a scientist and has been secretary of state. She

:12:12.:12:17.

would be an interesting coalition Prime Minister. Finally, Marine Le

:12:18.:12:23.

Pen, if she goes down to defeat a night, does she have the stomach and

:12:24.:12:28.

ambition, and the energy, to try it all again in 2022? She has all of

:12:29.:12:36.

that. The question is, would they let her? How badly would she lose?

:12:37.:12:43.

Her niece, now 27, a hard-working and steady person, unlike Marine Le

:12:44.:12:50.

Pen, who flunked her do paid -- debate, her niece may decide that

:12:51.:12:54.

2022 is her turn. Yet another Le Pen! All right, we will see. Just

:12:55.:13:02.

five years to wait, but only a few hours until the results of the

:13:03.:13:04.

election tonight. And we will get the exit polls here

:13:05.:13:09.

on the BBC. Given the exit polls will give as a pretty fair

:13:10.:13:13.

indication of what the result is going to be tonight. That will be on

:13:14.:13:15.

BBC news. That's all for today. The Daily Politics will cover every

:13:16.:13:19.

turn of this election campaign, And we're back here on BBC One

:13:20.:13:21.

at our usual time Next Sunday. Remember - if it's Sunday,

:13:22.:13:26.

it's the Sunday Politics. Our crack team of experts

:13:27.:13:28.

use pioneering research ..to how to help your pet

:13:29.:14:12.

lose weight. She's got right dangly earrings

:14:13.:14:25.

with sausages on them. Celebrate one of Britain's

:14:26.:14:27.

greatest comedy heroes with Oh, what a lovely thing to say!

:14:28.:14:32.

I'm filling up again now. Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!

:14:33.:14:43.

Ooh, in't she wonderful? If you're not careful, you'll end up

:14:44.:14:44.

playing this sexy little blonde The East End girl who became the

:14:45.:14:44.

nation's favourite. We don't know what it is,

:14:45.:14:47.

but she definitely has... Something.

:14:48.:14:53.

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