19/03/2017 Sunday Politics South


19/03/2017

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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:37.:00:39.

She faces huge political fights over Brexit, Scottish independence,

:00:40.:00:43.

After a tumultuous political week, we'll analyse the PM's prospects.

:00:44.:00:56.

With chatter increasing about a possible early General Election,

:00:57.:00:58.

Jeremy Corbyn's campaign chief joins me live.

:00:59.:01:03.

NHS bosses warn health services in England are facing "mission

:01:04.:01:06.

impossible" and waiting times for operations will rocket,

:01:07.:01:10.

unless hospitals are given more cash this year.

:01:11.:01:13.

What is going on down in the Park Providers joins me live.

:01:14.:01:25.

What is going on down in the Park according to a

:01:26.:01:28.

All that to come before 12:15pm, and I'll also be talking

:01:29.:01:38.

to the former leader of the Liberal Democrats Nick Clegg

:01:39.:01:41.

from his party's spring conference in York.

:01:42.:01:43.

With me here in the studio, throughout the programme,

:01:44.:01:48.

three of the country's top political commentators:

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Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

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They'll be tweeting their thoughts using #bbcsp.

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So, the political challenges facing Theresa May are stacking up.

:01:58.:02:00.

As well as negotiating Britain's exit from the EU,

:02:01.:02:06.

the PM must now deal with SNP demands for a second referendum

:02:07.:02:09.

on Scottish independence, backbenchers agitating against cuts

:02:10.:02:13.

to school budgets, and a humiliated Chancellor forced to u-turn on a key

:02:14.:02:17.

budget measure just one week after announcing it.

:02:18.:02:22.

Here's Adam Fleming on aturbulent political week

:02:23.:02:23.

Monday, 11:30am, TV crews gather in the residence of the First

:02:24.:02:40.

Minister of Scotland, who's got a surprise.

:02:41.:02:42.

She wants a vote on whether Scotland should leave the UK

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By taking the steps I have set out today I am ensuring that Scotland's

:02:46.:02:49.

future will be decided, not just by me, the

:02:50.:02:52.

Scottish Government, or the

:02:53.:02:53.

SNP, it will be decided by the people of Scotland.

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Westminster, 6:25pm the same day, MPs reject

:02:56.:03:05.

amendments to the legislation authorising the Prime Minister to

:03:06.:03:09.

The Bill ceremonially heads to the Lords where peers abandoned

:03:10.:03:23.

attempts to change it and it becomes law.

:03:24.:03:24.

But Downing Street doesn't trigger Article 50 as many had expected.

:03:25.:03:31.

Some say they were spooked by Nicola Sturgeon.

:03:32.:03:34.

We get an e-mail from the Treasury can the

:03:35.:03:50.

We get an e-mail from the Treasury cancelling

:03:51.:03:52.

the planned rise in National Insurance for

:03:53.:04:03.

the self-employed announced the budget.

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It's just minutes before Prime Minister's Questions at noon.

:04:06.:04:07.

The trend towards greater self-employment does create a

:04:08.:04:09.

We will bring forward further proposals

:04:10.:04:12.

but we will not bring forward increases to NICs later in this

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It seems to me like a government in a bit of chaos here.

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By making this change today we are listening to our colleagues

:04:20.:04:21.

fulfil both the letter and the spirit of our manifesto tax

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Thursday, 7am, Conservative campaign HQ and the

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Electoral Commission fines the party ?70,000 for misreporting spending

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But that's not what the Prime Minister

:04:38.:04:40.

Because at 12:19pm she gives her verdict on a

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We should be working together, not pulling apart.

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We should be working together to get that

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right deal for Scotland, that

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So, as I say, that's my job as Prime Minister and

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so for that reason I say to the SNP now is not the time.

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Friday and time for the faithful to gather.

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SNP activists at their spring conference

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Conservatives in Cardiff to hear the Prime Minister

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promote her plan for a more meritocratic Brexit Britain.

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At 11:10am comes some news about a newspaper that's frankly

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I'm thrilled and excited to be the new editor of The

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Evening Standard and, you know, with so many

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big issues in our world what

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good analysis, great news journalism.

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It's a really important time for good journalism that The

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Evening Standard is going to provide.

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There was no let-up yesterday as Gordon Brown launched proposals

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Under my proposals we keep the Barnett

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Formula, we keep the fiscal transfers, but we also bring the

:05:58.:06:01.

and fisheries back to the Scottish Parliament.

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And just think, all this and we're still counting down to the

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What a week in politics. It has been a torrid week for the government,

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Isabel Oakeshott, but does Theresa May shake it off, or is this a sign

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of worse to come? We may all be feeling a bit breathless after the

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events of last week and we are in for a a long war of attrition with

:06:34.:06:41.

the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon's strategy will be to foster over lengthy

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periods of time as much resentment and anger as she can in Scotland and

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try to create the impression that independence is somehow inevitable.

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Is Scotland the biggest challenge for Theresa May in the next year or

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so? I think it probably is because if you look at how relatively easily

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the Brexit bill went through on an issue where people could hardly feel

:07:03.:07:07.

more passionate in the Commons, and actually despite all the potential

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drama it has gone through quite smoothly. To go back to your

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original question, she just carries on. Don't underestimate the basic

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quiet and will towards Theresa May amongst the majority of Tory

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backbenchers. Yes, there are difficult little issues over school

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funding, sorry, it's not a little issue, it is a big one but she will

:07:28.:07:31.

get over that and treat each thing as it comes and keep pressing on.

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Has she not called Nicola Sturgeon's Bluff in that the First Minister

:07:36.:07:40.

said I want a referendum, here is roughly when I wanted, the Prime

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Minister says you're not having one. What happens next? She has done

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quite well and impact the progress Theresa May made this week in

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frustrating Nicola Sturgeon was evident when Nicola Sturgeon said,

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OK, maybe we can talk about the timing after. Nicola Sturgeon has

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already been the first one to blink. I would slightly disagree with

:08:02.:08:04.

Isabel Oakeshott, I don't agree Scotland will be the biggest hurdle

:08:05.:08:08.

for her. What this week showed as is Theresa May... It was a reality

:08:09.:08:13.

bites week. Theresa May is juggling four mammoth crises at the same

:08:14.:08:17.

time, Brexit obviously which I still think will be the biggest challenge

:08:18.:08:20.

to get a good deal, Trump left field who popped up at GCHQ on Friday and

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Scotland and the fiscal challenge, this enormous great problem, and it

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reinforced the point this is not an easy time in politics. The budget is

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over four years. That was one small problem, the immediate problem is

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how to fill the social care crisis and the ageing demographic. This is

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not normal times in British politics and Theresa May does not have a

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normal workload on her plate, hence why I think we will see more

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mistakes made as time goes on and as she has this almost impossible

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workload to juggle. How tempted do you think the Prime Minister is to

:08:59.:09:01.

call an early election? There is more chatter about it now. Is she

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tempted and if there is will she succumb? I will answer that in a

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second as Harold Wilson used to say. I want to agree, disagree with the

:09:11.:09:14.

rest of the panel about how she has out manipulated Nicola Sturgeon this

:09:15.:09:17.

week. I think Nicola Sturgeon expected Theresa May to say no to

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her expected timetable. It would be amazing if she had said yes. She

:09:22.:09:26.

expected her to say no but Sturgeon catalyst that will fuel support for

:09:27.:09:30.

her cause. There is no sign of that. The latest poll this morning shows

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66-44 against independence and only 13% think they would be better off

:09:37.:09:42.

with an independent Scotland and a clear majority do not want a second

:09:43.:09:46.

referendum. But the calculation of resistance from Westminster combined

:09:47.:09:49.

with Brexit which hasn't started yet, I think this is her

:09:50.:09:52.

calculation, she didn't expect Theresa May to say, sure, go ahead,

:09:53.:09:56.

I'm sure she expected Theresa May to say no, you can't have it at your

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desired timetable. On the wider point, I think Theresa May is in a

:10:02.:10:05.

fascinating position, she is both strong because she faces weak

:10:06.:10:09.

opposition and is ahead in the opinion polls. But faces the most

:10:10.:10:14.

daunting agenda of any Prime Minister for 40 or 50 years, I

:10:15.:10:18.

think. So it's a weird combination. I don't think she wants to call an

:10:19.:10:22.

election. I don't think she has thought about how you would

:10:23.:10:25.

manipulate it, what the trigger would be, and whether she's got the

:10:26.:10:29.

energy and space to prepare for and then mount a campaign was beginning

:10:30.:10:35.

the Brexit negotiation. Now, you could see the cause would be the

:10:36.:10:39.

small majorities that will make her life hellish, which it will do.

:10:40.:10:43.

Whether a landslide would help is another question, they can be

:10:44.:10:47.

difficult too. But I think the problems outweigh the advantages of

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going early. Do you think she would go for an early election? I don't

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and I think you have to look at the rhetoric coming out of No 10 which

:10:56.:10:59.

is so firm on this question, it is a delicious prospect for us as

:11:00.:11:02.

commentators to think there might be an election around the corner but

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they are so firm on this I can't see it happening. I agree, we are in

:11:06.:11:10.

unanimous agreement on this one. It is superficially attractive because

:11:11.:11:12.

she would love the big majority and she would get a lot more through

:11:13.:11:16.

Parliament especially with Brexit. The nitty-gritty of it makes an

:11:17.:11:20.

early General Election this year almost impossible. How do you write

:11:21.:11:24.

a manifesto on high Brexit versus soft Brexit, it opens up a Pandora's

:11:25.:11:29.

box of uncertainties. And there is enough with the European elections.

:11:30.:11:33.

The EU will say are we negotiating with you or the person who may

:11:34.:11:37.

replace you? How do you keep the Tory party united going to an

:11:38.:11:41.

election? How do you call one, with a vote of no confidence in yourself

:11:42.:11:45.

you may end up losing. Easy on paper but difficult in practice. We shall

:11:46.:11:46.

see. So if Theresa May did go

:11:47.:11:48.

for an early election this spring, The party's campaigns

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and elections chief Andrew Gwynne Andrew Gwynne, the government, as we

:11:52.:12:01.

have just been talking about, executed one of the most

:12:02.:12:04.

embarrassing U-turns in recent history this week. It has been a

:12:05.:12:07.

torrid time for the Theresa May government. Why are the Tories still

:12:08.:12:11.

so chipper? The Labour Party has been on an

:12:12.:12:16.

early election footing since before Christmas and we are preparing

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ourselves for that eventuality in case that does come. That means that

:12:20.:12:23.

we've got to get ourselves into a position whereby we can not only

:12:24.:12:28.

challenge the government but we can also offer a valuable alternative

:12:29.:12:34.

for the British people to choose from should that election arise. So,

:12:35.:12:40.

would you welcome an early General Election? Well, of course, I don't

:12:41.:12:43.

want this government to be in power so of course if there is an

:12:44.:12:46.

opportunity to put a case to the British people as to why there is a

:12:47.:12:50.

better way, and I believe the Labour way is the better way than of course

:12:51.:12:55.

we would want to put that case to the country. So, would Labour vote

:12:56.:13:00.

in the Commons for an early election? Well, of course as an

:13:01.:13:04.

opposition, not wanting to be in opposition, wanting to be in

:13:05.:13:08.

government should the government put forward a measure in accordance with

:13:09.:13:12.

the Fixed-term Parliaments Act then that's something we would very

:13:13.:13:16.

seriously have to consider. I know you would have to consider it but

:13:17.:13:19.

would you vote for an early election or not? Well, of course we want to

:13:20.:13:24.

be the government so if the current government puts forward measures to

:13:25.:13:27.

bring forward a General Election we would want to put our case to the

:13:28.:13:31.

British public and that's one of the jobs that I've been given, together

:13:32.:13:36.

Labour Party organisation early into a position where we can fight a

:13:37.:13:39.

General Election -- organisationally. For the avoidance

:13:40.:13:44.

of doubt, if the Government work to issue a motion in the Commons for an

:13:45.:13:48.

early election, the Labour Party would vote for an early election?

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It would be very difficult not, Andrew. If the Government wants to

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dissolve parliament, wants a General Election, we don't want the Tories

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in government, we want to be in government and we want to have that

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opportunity to put that case to the British people.

:14:05.:14:06.

Are you ready for an early election? You say you have been on a war all

:14:07.:14:15.

but since the Labour conference last autumn, but are you ready for one?

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How big is the election fighting fund? We have substantial amounts of

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money in our fighting fund, that is true, because not only has the

:14:21.:14:25.

Labour Party managed to eliminate its own financial deficit that it

:14:26.:14:30.

inherited from previous election campaigns, we have also managed to

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build up a substantial fund in the off chance we have an election. We

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have also expanded massively operations at Labour HQ, we are

:14:44.:14:47.

taking on additional staff, and one of the jobs that myself and Ian

:14:48.:14:50.

Lavery who I job share with are currently doing is to go around the

:14:51.:14:54.

Parliamentary Labour Party to make sure that Labour colleagues have the

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support and the resources that they need, should they have to face the

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electorate in their constituencies. So you are on a war footing, ready

:15:03.:15:06.

for the fight, you say you would vote for the fight, so have you got

:15:07.:15:10.

your tax and spend policies ready to roll out? That is something the

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shadow Treasury team will be discussing. One of the things is, if

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there is an early General Election, the normal timetable for these

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things gets fast-track because our policy decision-making body, its

:15:24.:15:28.

annual conference, we have the national policy forum that creates

:15:29.:15:33.

policies suggestions. You have been on a war footing since the last

:15:34.:15:36.

Labour conference, that is what Mr Corbyn told us. So you must have a

:15:37.:15:40.

fair idea of what policies you would fight an early election on. How much

:15:41.:15:45.

extra per year would you spend on the NHS? Well, look, I'm not going

:15:46.:15:49.

to set out the Labour manifesto for an election that hasn't been called.

:15:50.:15:53.

I'm just asking you about the NHS. You must have a policy for that. We

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have a policy for the NHS. So how much extra? I will not set out

:15:59.:16:03.

Labour's tax-and-spend policies here on The Sunday Politics when there

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hasn't even been election called. You said you had been on a war

:16:08.:16:11.

footing and you are prepared to vote for one, so if you can't Tommy that,

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can you tell me what the corporation rate tax on company profits be under

:16:18.:16:21.

a Labour government -- tell me that. You will have to be patient. I have.

:16:22.:16:28.

And wait for Mrs May to trigger an early election. If there is an

:16:29.:16:31.

election on the 4th of May the rich would have to be issued on the 27th

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of March, so that's not long to wait. If that date passes we aren't

:16:37.:16:41.

having an election on the 4th of May and the normal timetable for policy

:16:42.:16:46.

development will continue. All right. You lost Copeland, I think

:16:47.:16:50.

you were in charge of a by-election for Labour, your national poll

:16:51.:16:53.

ratings are still dire, even after week of terrible times for the

:16:54.:16:59.

Tories. Sometimes you even lose local government by-elections in

:17:00.:17:03.

safe seats, including in the place you are now, in Salford. How long

:17:04.:17:07.

does Mr Corbyn have to turn this around? Well, look, the issue of the

:17:08.:17:12.

Labour leadership was settled last year. The last thing the Labour

:17:13.:17:16.

Party now needs is another period of introspection with the Labour Party

:17:17.:17:20.

merely talks to the Labour Party. We are now on an election footing in

:17:21.:17:26.

case Mrs May does trigger an early General Election. We need to be

:17:27.:17:31.

talking to the British people are not to ourselves. So any speculation

:17:32.:17:36.

about the Labour leadership might excite you in the media but actually

:17:37.:17:40.

for us in the Labour Party it's about re-engaging and reconnecting

:17:41.:17:43.

with the voters. Rather than being excited, I feel quite daunted at the

:17:44.:17:47.

prospect of an early election. So I wouldn't get that right. Normally,

:17:48.:17:53.

given the number of mistakes this government has made, and its

:17:54.:17:57.

mid-term, you would expect any self-respecting opposition to be

:17:58.:18:01.

about ten points ahead. On the latest polls this morning you are 17

:18:02.:18:07.

behind. There is a 27-30 point gap from where you should normally be as

:18:08.:18:11.

an opposition. Are you telling me that if that doesn't change, you

:18:12.:18:14.

still fight the General Election with Mr Corbyn?

:18:15.:18:20.

These are matters for the future. I believe the leadership issue was

:18:21.:18:27.

settled last year. We have had two leadership contest in two years.

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Would you seriously contemplate going into the next election, if it

:18:33.:18:36.

is early I perfectly understand Jeremy Corbyn is your man, but if it

:18:37.:18:42.

is not until 2020, and you are still 17 points behind in the polls, will

:18:43.:18:46.

you go into the next election like that? There is a lot of future

:18:47.:18:50.

looking and speculation there, I don't know what the future holds,

:18:51.:19:00.

where the Labour Party will be in 12 months let alone by 2020 summit

:19:01.:19:02.

cross those bridges when we come to it. My main challenge is to make

:19:03.:19:05.

sure the Labour Party is in the best possible place organisationally to

:19:06.:19:08.

fight an election, that's my challenge and I'm up for that to

:19:09.:19:11.

make sure we are in the best possible place to make sure Labour

:19:12.:19:18.

returns as many Labour MPs as possible. Thank you for joining us.

:19:19.:19:24.

And we're joined now from the Liberal Democrats' spring

:19:25.:19:26.

conference in York by the former Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg.

:19:27.:19:28.

Good morning. In his conference speech today, Tim Farron lumps

:19:29.:19:37.

Theresa May with Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump. In

:19:38.:19:42.

what way is Mrs May similar to Marine Le Pen? Of course he is not

:19:43.:19:50.

saying Theresa May is identical to Marine Le Pen, I think what Tim

:19:51.:19:56.

Wilby spelling out shortly in his speech is that we need to be aware

:19:57.:20:00.

what's going on in the world, the International settlement that was

:20:01.:20:07.

arrived at after the First World -- Second World War, that bound

:20:08.:20:13.

supranational organisations is under attack from characters as diverse as

:20:14.:20:18.

Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and Donald Trump, and that by side in so

:20:19.:20:22.

ostentatiously with Donald Trump and pursuing this very hard Brexit,

:20:23.:20:26.

Theresa May appears to be giving succour to that much more

:20:27.:20:31.

isolationist chauvinist view of the world than the multilateral approach

:20:32.:20:35.

that Britain has subscribed to for a long time. The exact words he plans

:20:36.:20:40.

to use are welcome to the New World order, Vladimir Putin, Donald Trump,

:20:41.:20:49.

Marine Le Pen, Theresa May, aggressive and teenage to, anti-EU,

:20:50.:20:54.

nationalistic. In what way is Mrs May fitting into any of that? In

:20:55.:20:59.

what way is she similar to Vladimir Putin? I'm not aware she has

:21:00.:21:05.

interfered with other people's elections. The clue is in the quote

:21:06.:21:10.

you just read out, which is the world order. The world order over

:21:11.:21:15.

the last half century or more, by the way a lesson I'm afraid we have

:21:16.:21:19.

to learn in Europe because of the terrible bloodshed of two world was

:21:20.:21:24.

in the space of a few decades, was based on the idea might is not

:21:25.:21:28.

right. Strong arm leaders cannot throw their weight around. What we

:21:29.:21:34.

have now with Putin, the populism across parts of Europe and Donald

:21:35.:21:41.

Trump who thinks the EU will unravel is a shift to a radically different

:21:42.:21:46.

view of the world. Mrs May doesn't think any of that. She is not

:21:47.:21:52.

antenatal, not anti-EU, she says she wants the EU to succeed. She's not

:21:53.:21:58.

aggressive as far as I'm aware so I'm not sure why you would lump the

:21:59.:22:01.

British Prime Minister in with these other characters. Let me explain, by

:22:02.:22:08.

choosing this uncompromising approach to Brexit, clearly in doing

:22:09.:22:16.

so she, in my view, maybe not yours or others, is pursuing a self

:22:17.:22:19.

harming approach to the United Kingdom but also pulling up the

:22:20.:22:23.

threads that bind the rest of the European Union together, in so

:22:24.:22:28.

ostentatiously siding with Donald Trump, somehow declaring in my view

:22:29.:22:33.

speciously that we can make up with the trade we will lose, she's not

:22:34.:22:42.

challenging the shift to a more chauvinist approach to world affairs

:22:43.:22:46.

that is happening in many places. You are at your party's Spring

:22:47.:22:51.

conference, I think we can agree any Lib Dem come back will take a long

:22:52.:22:56.

time. Would Tory dominance be more effectively challenged by a

:22:57.:23:01.

realignment of the centre and the centre-left? Are you working towards

:23:02.:23:06.

that? I missed half the question but I think you are talking about a

:23:07.:23:13.

realignment. As a cook a way to get over Tory dominance, would you want

:23:14.:23:17.

that to happen? Are you working towards that? My view is the

:23:18.:23:22.

recovery of the Lib Dems will be quicker than you suggest. People

:23:23.:23:27.

often forget that even the low point of our fortunes in the last election

:23:28.:23:31.

we still got a million more votes than the SNP, it's only because we

:23:32.:23:35.

have got this crazy electoral system... But the SNP fight in

:23:36.:23:44.

Scotland, you fight in the whole country! But I'm saying the way

:23:45.:23:50.

seats are allocated overlooks the fact that 2.5 million still voted

:23:51.:23:59.

for us. But my own view is of course there are people feeling

:24:00.:24:03.

increasingly homeless in the liberal wing of the Conservative Party

:24:04.:24:06.

because they are now in a party which is in effect indistinguishable

:24:07.:24:10.

from Ukip on some of the biggest issues of the day, and homeless folk

:24:11.:24:17.

on the rational, reasonable wing of the Labour Party. I would invite

:24:18.:24:21.

them to join the Liberal Democrats and I would invite everyone across

:24:22.:24:25.

parties to talk about the idea is that bind us because the Westminster

:24:26.:24:30.

village can invest a lot of energy building new castles in the sky,

:24:31.:24:34.

inventing new names for parties when actually what you want is for people

:24:35.:24:37.

on the progressive centre ground of British politics to talk about the

:24:38.:24:49.

ideas that unite them, from the dilemmas of artificial intelligence

:24:50.:24:54.

to climate change. Do you think in your own view, can Brexit still be

:24:55.:24:58.

thwarted or is it now a matter of getting the best terms? I think we

:24:59.:25:07.

are in an interlude, almost a calm between two storms, the storm of the

:25:08.:25:11.

referendum itself and the collision between the Government's stated

:25:12.:25:15.

ambitions for Brexit and the reality of having to negotiate something

:25:16.:25:19.

unworkable with 27 other governments. The one thing I can

:25:20.:25:24.

guarantee you is that what the Government has promised to the

:25:25.:25:35.

British people cannot happen. Over a slower period of time we will work

:25:36.:25:40.

out our new relationship with the European Union. Theresa May said she

:25:41.:25:44.

will settle divorce arrangements, and pensions, so one, negotiate new

:25:45.:25:50.

trade agreements, new climate change policies and so on, and have all of

:25:51.:25:55.

that ratified within two years, that will not happen so I think there

:25:56.:25:59.

will be a lot of turbulence in the next couple of years. Will you use

:26:00.:26:05.

this turbulence to try to thwart Brexit, to find a way of rolling

:26:06.:26:11.

back the decision? It's not about repeating the debates of the past or

:26:12.:26:15.

thwarting the will of the people but it is comparing what people were

:26:16.:26:20.

promised from the ?350 million for the NHS every week through to this

:26:21.:26:27.

glittering array of new trade agreements we will sign across the

:26:28.:26:31.

world, with the reality that will transpire in the next couple of

:26:32.:26:35.

years and at that point, yes it is my belief people should be able to

:26:36.:26:39.

take a second look at if that is what they really want. A couple of

:26:40.:26:43.

quick questions, would you welcome an early general election? I always

:26:44.:26:51.

welcome them, we couldn't do worse than we did last time. That is

:26:52.:26:58.

certainly true. You have a column in the Evening Standard, have you

:26:59.:27:00.

spoken to the new editor about whether he will keep your column or

:27:01.:27:07.

spike it? No, I wait in nervous anticipation. Can you be a newspaper

:27:08.:27:14.

editor in the morning and an MP in the afternoon? Do I think that's

:27:15.:27:22.

feasible? Sorry, I missed a bit. There is no prohibition, no law

:27:23.:27:27.

against MPs being editors. They have been in the past and no doubt will

:27:28.:27:32.

again in the future. He is taking a lot on, he is an editor, also

:27:33.:27:39.

wanting to be an MP, a jetsetting academic in the States, working in

:27:40.:27:43.

the city, I suspect something will give. It seems to me even by his

:27:44.:27:48.

self-confidence standards in his own abilities I suspect he is taking on

:27:49.:27:54.

a little bit too much. Very diplomatic, Mr Clegg, I'm sure you

:27:55.:27:57.

will get to keep the column. Thanks for joining us.

:27:58.:28:02.

Now, for the last six months England's NHS bosses have been

:28:03.:28:04.

warning the health service needs more money to help it meet

:28:05.:28:07.

But in his first Budget, the Chancellor offered

:28:08.:28:10.

no immediate relief, and today the head of

:28:11.:28:12.

the organisation representing England's NHS trusts says hundreds

:28:13.:28:14.

of thousands of patients will have to wait longer for both emergency

:28:15.:28:17.

care and planned operations, unless the Government

:28:18.:28:18.

Warnings over funding are not exactly new.

:28:19.:28:26.

Back in 2014 the head of the NHS in England, Simon Stevens,

:28:27.:28:29.

published his plan for the future of the health service.

:28:30.:28:34.

In his five-year forward view, Stevens said the NHS in England

:28:35.:28:36.

would face a funding shortfall of up to ?30 billion by 2020.

:28:37.:28:39.

To bridge that gap he said the NHS would need more money

:28:40.:28:42.

from the Government, at least ?8 billion extra,

:28:43.:28:46.

and that the health service could account for the rest by making

:28:47.:28:49.

The Government says it's given the health service more than what it

:28:50.:28:56.

asked for, and that NHS in England will have received

:28:57.:28:58.

That number is disputed by NHS managers and the chair

:28:59.:29:04.

of Parliament's health committee, who say the figure is more

:29:05.:29:06.

like ?4.5 billion, while other parts of the health and social care budget

:29:07.:29:09.

have been cut, putting pressure on the front line.

:29:10.:29:15.

Last year, two thirds of NHS trusts in England finished

:29:16.:29:18.

the year in the red, and despite emergency bailouts

:29:19.:29:21.

from the Government, the NHS is likely to record

:29:22.:29:23.

Meanwhile national targets on waiting times for A

:29:24.:29:28.

departments, diagnostic tests, and operations are being

:29:29.:29:31.

This month's Budget provided ?2 billion for social care

:29:32.:29:38.

but there was no new cash for the NHS, leading trusts to warn

:29:39.:29:42.

that patient care is beginning to suffer, and what is being asked

:29:43.:29:45.

And I'm joined now by the Chief Executive of NHS

:29:46.:29:51.

Providers in England, Chris Hopson.

:29:52.:29:56.

Welcome to the programme. Morning, Andrew. I will come onto the extra

:29:57.:30:03.

money you need to do your job properly in a minute but first, part

:30:04.:30:08.

of the deal was you had to make 22 billion in efficiency savings, not a

:30:09.:30:11.

bank that money but spend it on patient care, the front line, and so

:30:12.:30:17.

on. How is that going? So, last parliament we realised around 18

:30:18.:30:19.

billion of productivity and efficiency savings, we are realising

:30:20.:30:23.

more this year so we are on course to realise 3 billion this year, that

:30:24.:30:27.

is a quarter of a billion more than last year but all of us in the NHS

:30:28.:30:32.

knew the 22 billion would be a very stretching target and we are

:30:33.:30:36.

somewhat inevitably falling short. So it is 22 billion by 2,020.

:30:37.:30:43.

Roughly. That was the time. We are now into 2017. So how much of the 22

:30:44.:30:51.

billion have you achieved? We realised around 3 billion last year

:30:52.:30:56.

and we will realise 3 billion this year, Court of billion more, 3.25

:30:57.:31:02.

billion this year, so we are on course for 18-19,000,000,000. By the

:31:03.:31:06.

2021 period? You are not that far away. The problem is the degree to

:31:07.:31:10.

which demand is going up. We have record demand over the winter period

:31:11.:31:15.

and that actually meant we have seen more people than we have ever seen

:31:16.:31:19.

before but performance is still under real pressure. Let me come

:31:20.:31:25.

onto that. When you agreed on the 22 billion efficiency savings plus some

:31:26.:31:29.

extra money from the government, I know there is a bit of an argument

:31:30.:31:33.

about how much that is actually worth, had you not factored in this

:31:34.:31:38.

extra demand that you saw coming over the next three or four years?

:31:39.:31:42.

Let's be very clear committee referred to Simon Stevens's forward

:31:43.:31:47.

view and we signed up to it but the 22 billion was a process run at the

:31:48.:31:51.

centre of government by the Department of Health with its arms

:31:52.:31:54.

length bodies, NHS England and others and is not something that was

:31:55.:31:58.

consulted on with the NHS. But you signed up to it. We always said that

:31:59.:32:02.

the day that that Spending Review was announced, the idea that the NHS

:32:03.:32:08.

where customer demand goes up something like four or 5% every

:32:09.:32:11.

year, the idea that in the middle years of Parliament we would be able

:32:12.:32:15.

to provide the same level of service when we were only getting funding

:32:16.:32:21.

increases of 1.3%, 0.4% and 0.7%, and I can show you the press release

:32:22.:32:25.

we issued, we always said there was going to be a gap and that we would

:32:26.:32:30.

not be able to deliver what was required. The full 22 billion in

:32:31.:32:36.

other words? What we said to Simon Stevens at the Public Accounts

:32:37.:32:39.

Committee a few months ago, the NHS didn't get what it was asked for.

:32:40.:32:45.

Today the NHS, cope with the resources it has according to you.

:32:46.:32:51.

How much more does it need? Are reported is about 2017-18 and we

:32:52.:32:55.

estimate that what we are being asked to do, and again, Andrew, you

:32:56.:32:58.

clearly set it out in the package, we are a long way off the four-hour

:32:59.:33:04.

A target and a long way off the 92%. The waiting times and

:33:05.:33:08.

operations. How much more do you need? And we are making up a ?900

:33:09.:33:13.

million deficit. If you take all of those into account we estimate you

:33:14.:33:18.

would need an extra ?3.5 billion next year in order to deliver all of

:33:19.:33:22.

those targets and eliminate the deficit. That would be 3.5 billion

:33:23.:33:26.

on top of what is already planned next year and that would be 3.5

:33:27.:33:30.

billion repeated in the years to come too? Yes, Andrew it is

:33:31.:33:33.

important we should make an important distinction about the NHS

:33:34.:33:39.

versus other public services. When the last government, the last Labour

:33:40.:33:42.

government put extra money into the NHS it clearly said that in return

:33:43.:33:47.

for that it would establish some standards in the NHS Constitution,

:33:48.:33:51.

the 95% A target we have talked about and the 92% elective surgery

:33:52.:33:55.

we have talked about. The trust we represent are very clear, they would

:33:56.:33:59.

want to realise those standards, but you can only do it if you pay for

:34:00.:34:03.

it. The problem is at the moment is we are in the longest and deepest

:34:04.:34:08.

financial squeeze in NHS history. As we have said, funding is only going

:34:09.:34:12.

up by 1% per year but every year just to stand still cost and demand

:34:13.:34:17.

go up by more than 4%. There is clearly a demand for more money. I

:34:18.:34:22.

think people watching this programme will think probably the NHS is going

:34:23.:34:25.

to have to get more money to meet the goals you have been given. I

:34:26.:34:30.

think they would also like to be sure that your Mac running the NHS

:34:31.:34:35.

as efficiently as it could be. We read this morning that trusts have

:34:36.:34:39.

got ?100 million of empty properties that cost 10 million to maintain, 36

:34:40.:34:44.

office blocks are not being used, you have surplus land equivalent to

:34:45.:34:49.

1800 football pitches. Yes, there are a number of things that we know

:34:50.:34:54.

in the NHS we need to do better but let me remind you, Andrew, in the

:34:55.:34:59.

last Parliament we realised ?18 billion worth of cost improvement

:35:00.:35:02.

gains. We are going to realise another 3 billion this year, 0.25

:35:03.:35:09.

billion more than last year so these things are being targeted. But

:35:10.:35:12.

having that surplus land, it is almost certainly in areas where

:35:13.:35:15.

there is a demand for housing. Absolutely. So why not release it

:35:16.:35:21.

for housing? You get the money, the people get their houses and its

:35:22.:35:26.

contribution and a signal that you are running NHS assets as

:35:27.:35:29.

efficiently as you can? Tell me if I'm going to too much detail for

:35:30.:35:34.

you. One of the reasons as to why our trusts are reluctant to realise

:35:35.:35:38.

those land sales is because there is an assumption that the money would

:35:39.:35:42.

go back to the Treasury and wouldn't benefit NHS trusts. You could make a

:35:43.:35:46.

deal, couldn't you? That's part of the conversation going on at the

:35:47.:35:50.

moment. The issue is that we would want to ensure that if we do release

:35:51.:35:55.

land, quite rightly the benefit, particularly in foundation trusts

:35:56.:36:06.

which are, as you will remember, deliberately autonomous

:36:07.:36:08.

organisations, that they should keep the benefit of those land sales.

:36:09.:36:10.

Have you raised that with the government?

:36:11.:36:10.

Yes we have. What did they say? They are in discussions of it. We heard

:36:11.:36:23.

somebody who moved from one job and then to another job and given a big

:36:24.:36:28.

salary and then almost ?200,000 as a payoff. There is a national mood for

:36:29.:36:32.

the NHS to get more money. But before you give anybody any more

:36:33.:36:35.

money you want to be sure that the money you have got already is being

:36:36.:36:39.

properly spent, which for us, is the patient at the end of the day. And

:36:40.:36:44.

yet there seem to be these enormous salaries and payoffs. I've worked in

:36:45.:36:52.

a FTSE 100 on the board of Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs and I

:36:53.:36:54.

have worked in large organisations. I can look you completely straight

:36:55.:36:57.

in the eye and tell you that the jobs that our hospital, community,

:36:58.:37:00.

mental health and ambulance chief Executives do are amongst the most

:37:01.:37:03.

complicated leadership roles I have ever seen. It doesn't seem to me to

:37:04.:37:08.

be unreasonable that in order to get the right quality of people we

:37:09.:37:11.

should pay an appropriate salary. The reality is the salaries are paid

:37:12.:37:15.

are not excessive when talking about managing budgets of over ?1 billion

:37:16.:37:20.

a year and talking about managing tens of thousands of staff. There

:37:21.:37:27.

was a doctor working as a locum that earned an extra ?375,000. One of the

:37:28.:37:31.

problems in the NHS is a mismatch between the number of staff we need

:37:32.:37:34.

and the number of staff coming through the pipeline. What is having

:37:35.:37:38.

to happen is if you want to keep a service going you have to use Mackem

:37:39.:37:43.

and agency staff. Even at that cost? You would not want to pay those

:37:44.:37:49.

amounts. But you are. The chief Executives's choice in those areas

:37:50.:37:53.

is giving the service open or employing a locum. I'm sure you

:37:54.:37:58.

could find a locum prepared to work for less than that. What indication,

:37:59.:38:01.

what hopes do you have of getting the extra ?3 billion? The government

:38:02.:38:06.

has been very clear, for the moment it wants to stick to the existing

:38:07.:38:11.

funding settlement it has agreed. So there was nothing in the budget. Can

:38:12.:38:15.

I finish by making one important point. Please, finish. This is the

:38:16.:38:20.

first time the NHS has said before the year has even started that we

:38:21.:38:26.

can't deliver on those standards. We believe, as do most people who work

:38:27.:38:31.

in the NHS, that the NHS is on a gradual slow decline. This is a very

:38:32.:38:35.

important inflection point to Mark, this is the first time before the

:38:36.:38:38.

financial year starts that we say we cannot meet the targets we are being

:38:39.:38:42.

asked to deliver and are in the NHS Constitution. We have run out of

:38:43.:38:46.

time. Chris Hopson, thank you for being with me.

:38:47.:38:47.

It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:38:48.:38:49.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

:38:50.:38:52.

On today's show - just what's going on with our municipal parks?

:38:53.:39:08.

There was a time when they were a source of civic pride with a dash

:39:09.:39:11.

of Victorian social engineering thrown in - now a recent select

:39:12.:39:14.

committee says they're being dangerously neglected

:39:15.:39:16.

First let's meet the two politicians who'll be with me

:39:17.:39:23.

Mims Davies is the Conservative MP for Eastleigh, and Gerald

:39:24.:39:28.

Vernon-Jackson is the leader of the Liberal Democrat group

:39:29.:39:30.

Different sides on the Brexit debate. David Davis said if we have

:39:31.:39:52.

no deal, there has been no calculation and what the impact will

:39:53.:39:58.

be on the economy. I have confidence in the timetable we set out and

:39:59.:40:02.

there are some serious unknowns but we will be heading into the great

:40:03.:40:07.

repeal act and we have negotiations with the primary area that I would

:40:08.:40:11.

like to see as fake a song which is our EU nationals here and our

:40:12.:40:18.

citizens abroad. Bit -- that should be sorted out early on. If we end up

:40:19.:40:27.

with a 30% tariff on dairy and milk, that will have huge implications and

:40:28.:40:32.

made don't seem to have done the sums. If you hear back from the EU,

:40:33.:40:38.

there is different messages coming back. There is some meeting of minds

:40:39.:40:43.

needed and we are into that phase. That is very welcome for my

:40:44.:40:46.

constituents and for people who want to know what is going to happen.

:40:47.:40:51.

Their jobs, how their mortgage rates are going to be set and how they

:40:52.:40:54.

will go forward. We are in a positive face where we will be

:40:55.:41:01.

looking globally and we do need to make sure we are on the front foot

:41:02.:41:10.

and this two years is used well. We are at the front of the queue with

:41:11.:41:16.

the US and I'm sure everyone is delighted about that. We're

:41:17.:41:22.

delighted, Gerald? I'm worried because all the meat that is pumped

:41:23.:41:26.

full of antibiotics and other things that is sold in the US but is banned

:41:27.:41:31.

in Britain because it's not safe, will be available to be even here in

:41:32.:41:35.

Britain. Nobody seems to have thought this through in government.

:41:36.:41:41.

It is clear we won't get a deal. All 27 other countries have to agree it

:41:42.:41:44.

and somebody won't. Therefore there won't be a deal. That would take too

:41:45.:41:53.

long so can't we say leave everything as it is and we will

:41:54.:41:58.

change things one by one? Which would stay part of the single market

:41:59.:42:03.

but the government have ruled that out. The Conservative peers voted to

:42:04.:42:07.

say we would not give EU nationals living here the right to stay.

:42:08.:42:13.

Conservative members said no. I can see how they will do that. That was

:42:14.:42:24.

about Article 50 and those details will come forward. It can one

:42:25.:42:30.

farming detail. The Prime Minister this week responded to one of our

:42:31.:42:35.

backbenchers saying our safety when it comes to our food and the good

:42:36.:42:41.

things we have inherited from the EU, we will keep. That means we

:42:42.:42:44.

can't have a free-trade deal with the US because they will demand that

:42:45.:42:49.

unsafe food comes in and is sold in British supermarkets. We are in a

:42:50.:42:58.

really bad place. If we don't want dodgy US food, will not take it. We

:42:59.:43:03.

have turned our back on 250 million people to buy British goods.

:43:04.:43:07.

It's been National Science Week this week, with events across the region

:43:08.:43:09.

trying to persuade young people of the excitements and rewards

:43:10.:43:12.

The BBC's been getting in on the act with the Bottle Rocket Challenge,

:43:13.:43:16.

where celebrities have a go at a bit of hands-on science

:43:17.:43:19.

I might have to go and remove the Cork again.

:43:20.:43:44.

Louise Minchin and Dan Walker from BBC Breakfast there -

:43:45.:43:52.

and if you want to have a go at launching a bottle rocket

:43:53.:43:55.

there's full instructions on the BBC website.

:43:56.:43:56.

But more seriously, one of the issues here

:43:57.:43:58.

In the Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics

:43:59.:44:02.

industries - the so-called STEM subjects - just 14%

:44:03.:44:06.

of the workforce are women, in engineering it's just 8%,

:44:07.:44:08.

Joining us now is Sarah Chapman from Bracknell-based

:44:09.:44:14.

Is it getting worse? Why 8%? Unfortunately young girls are put

:44:15.:44:33.

off at GCSE levels. They don't go one to choose science in a level and

:44:34.:44:43.

beyond. From my experience, a lot of it is around a lack of role models.

:44:44.:44:48.

You can't be it if you can see it. We need to show young women there

:44:49.:44:52.

are plenty of jobs that are not in lab coats, grimy engineers. I get to

:44:53.:45:01.

work with people. All about cleanliness? It is more about that.

:45:02.:45:06.

In maths, lots of women want to go into medicine. It is a majority of

:45:07.:45:12.

GPs who are female. Is it computer science that is worse? Watch and we

:45:13.:45:17.

learn from that? Some sciences woman want to do but some they don't?

:45:18.:45:22.

Sometimes they don't realise what those jobs look like. When my

:45:23.:45:29.

colleague looked puzzles and she never associated that with computer

:45:30.:45:33.

science and maths. There is a lot of women who don't make that link

:45:34.:45:41.

between jobs in the real world and what they study at school. That is

:45:42.:45:48.

vital to get them into it. You made the point about crime. I was saying

:45:49.:45:55.

you have to be the men and change the industries? The industries are

:45:56.:46:06.

changing. A lot is about collaboration. It is about working

:46:07.:46:08.

with lab teams. There are lots of spreadsheets and

:46:09.:46:40.

if you can't communicate your ideas, inventions are never made alone.

:46:41.:46:43.

They are always a big team especially in a company Nike mine.

:46:44.:46:50.

We need people who can connect with customers, understand and articulate

:46:51.:46:52.

themselves. That is something that is not always understood. Gerald,

:46:53.:47:04.

what do you think the answer is? You have to encourage and show people.

:47:05.:47:08.

Different industries do it in different ways. In Portsmouth, the

:47:09.:47:13.

big engineering thing is Airbus with the satellite industry and

:47:14.:47:20.

headquarters at the satellite industry. 1200 engineering jobs and

:47:21.:47:27.

50% of their graduate entrants are female. The worry in the long is all

:47:28.:47:32.

those satellites go off to France to be put together and assembled and if

:47:33.:47:36.

we are out of the single market, there will be tariffs. There will be

:47:37.:47:44.

fewer jobs available in engineering in Portsmouth are women and men. It

:47:45.:47:55.

is a growing sector. 'S 20% of the satellite is going around the world

:47:56.:48:01.

made in Portsmouth. Mims, they used to be a lot of dockyard jobs. We

:48:02.:48:07.

should beat this -- changing the perception. Isn't it starting in

:48:08.:48:13.

schools? Science and Tech is not about the oily rag trade and getting

:48:14.:48:22.

dirty. I went there to Easley this week. Hardly anybody on computers

:48:23.:48:31.

that were women. They said they were geeks and blokes. There is a huge

:48:32.:48:39.

talent pool that we need to attract. In Mike on situation -- in my

:48:40.:48:43.

constituency, we are leading in contact lens around the world am I

:48:44.:48:47.

went to one school and we have linked them up in terms of making

:48:48.:48:49.

sure the girls up the road go and sure the girls up the road go and

:48:50.:48:52.

have a visit of that centre and have a visit of that centre and

:48:53.:48:56.

realise what is being made and how they can get involved. We want work

:48:57.:49:02.

ready kids, so we need to do that better in schools. Companies often

:49:03.:49:05.

saying we need to make sure the kids know what the jobs are that are out

:49:06.:49:11.

there. If we want the right people coming in, businesses need to be

:49:12.:49:16.

clear on what is out there. Refrigeration and air conditioning,

:49:17.:49:20.

we are leading the country in terms of bringing through the engineers.

:49:21.:49:24.

We need more women and girls doing this. Sticking with maths, you can't

:49:25.:49:28.

be a leader if you can't read a balance sheet. You will end up on

:49:29.:49:34.

the creative side. We still need more women in the creative areas.

:49:35.:49:39.

There are lots of women who do maths, aren't there? Is the

:49:40.:49:52.

engineering side just a cultural thing? It is boys and toys and women

:49:53.:49:58.

like different things. A lot of stem jobs, they need a diverse range of

:49:59.:50:03.

skills and it is about recognising in engineering, you need the

:50:04.:50:06.

mechanical skills but those engineers, there is a team of people

:50:07.:50:13.

and we really need creative people. Nail technicians. They are the same

:50:14.:50:20.

people that then go into the flat onyx industry because they need the

:50:21.:50:26.

same skills. We need to show people with certain creative skills that

:50:27.:50:28.

there is a chance in the digital industry. We should all input into

:50:29.:50:35.

this and get this better for all our population. There are other

:50:36.:50:38.

professions which are entirely female. The care home where my mum

:50:39.:50:50.

lives, entire staff are female. We are not going to get young people

:50:51.:50:55.

into those jobs. There is a gap and Willie to fill it with something.

:50:56.:50:59.

They have to be able to see it. Now how much do you

:51:00.:51:02.

value your local park? Have you noticed it's maybe not

:51:03.:51:05.

as pristine as it once was? Well the Communities and Local

:51:06.:51:07.

Government Select Committee has and last month said that funding

:51:08.:51:10.

for parks in some cases had been In Bournemouth the parks department

:51:11.:51:13.

has lost around half Our Dorset Political Reporter

:51:14.:51:17.

Tristan Pascoe has been checking out In the 1950s and 60s, play equipment

:51:18.:51:24.

like this was commonplace Health and safety has put paid

:51:25.:51:36.

to much of this kind of kit, though, But today, with other

:51:37.:51:45.

spending priorities, council run parks and play areas

:51:46.:51:49.

like this have seen a steady Here in Bournemouth, for example,

:51:50.:51:53.

the money for parks has halved And that drop in funding is a real

:51:54.:51:57.

concern to a committee of MPs who are warning that

:51:58.:52:02.

because of progressive cuts, our public parks are now

:52:03.:52:06.

at a tipping point. This park on a large housing

:52:07.:52:10.

estate in Bournemouth There are a few bits of equipment

:52:11.:52:13.

for local kids to play on but there's a tonne of evidence

:52:14.:52:21.

that suggests our parks have a huge role to play in our physical

:52:22.:52:25.

and mental health and well-being and they are fo far more

:52:26.:52:27.

than merely horsing around. We can clearly see that

:52:28.:52:32.

the potential for us as human beings as part of nature to interact

:52:33.:52:40.

with nature and have access to that, you can take exercise,

:52:41.:52:42.

you can meet people, develop friendships,

:52:43.:52:44.

social interaction. There has been some small studies

:52:45.:52:46.

looking at measuring people's cortisol levels,

:52:47.:52:48.

the stress hormone, and that's already been shown to reduce those

:52:49.:52:50.

over a 24-hour period. So we're only just

:52:51.:52:52.

beginning to understand it. Just because we don't have a full

:52:53.:52:54.

understanding doesn't mean They are absolutely vital in terms

:52:55.:52:56.

of our health and well-being. So parks are hugely

:52:57.:53:00.

important to public health and are significantly boosted

:53:01.:53:02.

with activities like park run, arts and cultural

:53:03.:53:05.

activities, even crazy golf. But with the other budgetary

:53:06.:53:13.

pressures on our councils, funding to maintain our public parks

:53:14.:53:15.

is disappearing down a black hole. There is less money

:53:16.:53:19.

to spend on horticulture. There's less money to spend

:53:20.:53:21.

on playgrounds and reduced amount of patrol and it's not a position

:53:22.:53:24.

with like to be in. We'd like to have more staff out

:53:25.:53:27.

in parks making sure people felt You do have to make some

:53:28.:53:30.

fairly stark choices. In Bournemouth, a charity has been

:53:31.:53:42.

set up specifically to try and push the outside investment and a group

:53:43.:53:47.

of local volunteers is all There's a report out today saying

:53:48.:53:50.

exercise from seven years of age If we don't invest in open

:53:51.:53:56.

spaces and encourage children to go outside,

:53:57.:54:03.

runaround and play, it's only At the very least, let's

:54:04.:54:08.

maintain those open spaces The communities and local government

:54:09.:54:12.

select committee is calling on councils to come up

:54:13.:54:15.

with a long-term strategy. So with warnings of paddling pools

:54:16.:54:17.

at risk of being closed to save money, maintenance reduced

:54:18.:54:20.

leading to an increase in litter and rats, what is the Councillor

:54:21.:54:23.

in charge of Bournemouth's parks Our strategy, I think,

:54:24.:54:25.

is to keep our eye on the ball It needs more than a few

:54:26.:54:29.

words, doesn't it? The government is asking you to come

:54:30.:54:34.

up with a long-term vision. And if you look at our cabinet

:54:35.:54:37.

forward plan, you'll see on it is parks strategy and that's

:54:38.:54:40.

what we're working We're spending money and we're

:54:41.:54:43.

finding that by selling beach huts. One thing is financing

:54:44.:54:51.

something else. The bigger picture is that everybody

:54:52.:54:53.

is going to have to look inwardly So, yes, there is financial pressure

:54:54.:54:56.

on local authorities. There are warnings that

:54:57.:55:04.

funding for public in open spaces continues to fall,

:55:05.:55:06.

there will be Being able to exercise has now been

:55:07.:55:09.

shown very clearly to reduce Already we have worse mental health

:55:10.:55:15.

than in most big cities than we do outside of cities,

:55:16.:55:19.

so the likelihood is Parks were an original

:55:20.:55:22.

National Health Service and make play an enormous amount in terms

:55:23.:55:29.

of reducing the burden on social care by getting people out

:55:30.:55:32.

and keeping people healthy. I think if money was no object

:55:33.:55:34.

at all, I'd like to see us leaving a legacy of public parks

:55:35.:55:37.

for the 21st-century, something to compare

:55:38.:55:39.

with what Victorians did over They suggest alternatives to local

:55:40.:56:06.

authorities. Is it a bit on Southampton Common, Southsea Common,

:56:07.:56:10.

they are big open areas and maintained by Council and the lungs

:56:11.:56:14.

of the local community. Councils have to look after them properly. In

:56:15.:56:20.

Portsmouth we have an issue that in our Central Park, the guy that runs

:56:21.:56:24.

the cafe with a public loos has been thrown out the council -- thrown out

:56:25.:56:30.

by the council because they don't like him. His 10,000 a year rent has

:56:31.:56:38.

been thrown back at him. When money is so short, surely for local

:56:39.:56:43.

authorities you can't keep them pristine. Some councils stop people

:56:44.:56:47.

who go out doing the jogging if they are a private company. We do -- we

:56:48.:56:52.

need a different approach. There are ways of doing -- of doing it in an

:56:53.:56:58.

imaginative way. You can have blunting their all through the year.

:56:59.:57:08.

There are ways of doing it. -- you can have planting all through the

:57:09.:57:22.

year. It is part of the mix. There is a power of well-being that has

:57:23.:57:27.

devolved down to local councillors. Park run is really important. The

:57:28.:57:34.

NHS and DWP will pick up the problems that not getting out and

:57:35.:57:40.

about brings with you. I was walking with the Woodland Trust in ancient

:57:41.:57:49.

woodland that they think should be looked at like an ancient cathedral

:57:50.:57:52.

because it is hundreds of years old. Being able to pop down to the park

:57:53.:57:57.

is really important. We need to look at different ways of looking after

:57:58.:58:00.

these parks but councillors will have to make some difficult

:58:01.:58:03.

positions stop not keeping our parks past even -- pristine is a bad

:58:04.:58:09.

decision. They need to work better in making a decent solution and if

:58:10.:58:18.

you have got people attracting your residence there, with the chance to

:58:19.:58:22.

have a coffee and there is a chance to get people active and planting at

:58:23.:58:27.

the same time, people will give back. Let's find a balance. Keep it

:58:28.:58:34.

as a community space. That is rarely important. Now a round-up.

:58:35.:58:41.

The south coast has got his first offshore wind turbine.

:58:42.:58:44.

Eight miles off Brighton, each blade is taller than Nelson's

:58:45.:58:51.

Column and there will be hundreds of them.

:58:52.:58:53.

Some people have complained it's an eyesore.

:58:54.:58:54.

It'll be different to look at but I don't have a problem with it at all.

:58:55.:58:58.

Plans to create one council for Oxfordshire

:58:59.:59:00.

One planning department, one waste collection

:59:01.:59:04.

But the plans are opposed by three district councils who say

:59:05.:59:08.

It would be undemocratic, it will take power away from local people.

:59:09.:59:12.

The CBI director, Caroline Fairburn, visited company bosses

:59:13.:59:14.

in the Thames Valley talking up the challenges and

:59:15.:59:19.

One uncertainty down here and in the Thames Valley

:59:20.:59:26.

is around people, access to talent and skills.

:59:27.:59:29.

Finally it was the public's choice although they named the Southampton

:59:30.:59:36.

research ship RS Attenborough, Boaty McBoatface lives

:59:37.:59:38.

We have seen a view U-turns. What is the best thing to do? Come up with

:59:39.:00:03.

an alternative plan or see, "We got it wrong? " I didn't have loads of

:00:04.:00:23.

screaming letters about it. There was little in the budget that people

:00:24.:00:27.

have a go at and that is why things rose to the surface. There was much

:00:28.:00:33.

more going on and there wouldn't be the indecision. We should be

:00:34.:00:40.

supporting us strivers and Theresa May has given some locals on that. I

:00:41.:00:49.

am sure it never happened when you were in Portsmouth. Always get on

:00:50.:00:55.

with it. There are other big issues. 12 police forces investigating

:00:56.:00:58.

conservatives for election malpractices. That is a really big

:00:59.:01:06.

story. Say sorry? Say sorry but the MP should be resigning and spatial

:01:07.:01:14.

tab by-elections. Headstone was never declared. If you have messed

:01:15.:01:21.

up on the returns, the Central office dealing with that. Only the

:01:22.:01:26.

Conservatives have been reported to the police for criminal corruption.

:01:27.:01:33.

Politicians have to say sorry rather a lot. They expect us to be honest

:01:34.:01:39.

and come back with the answers when we need to do it and it is a good

:01:40.:01:44.

thing for our democracy. People don't always get things right.

:01:45.:01:46.

That's the Sunday Politics in the South, thanks to my guests

:01:47.:01:49.

Mims Davies and Gerald Vernon-Jackson.

:01:50.:01:53.

you both. Say goodbye. Goodbye. Back to you.

:01:54.:02:03.

So, can George Osborne stay on as a member of Parliament

:02:04.:02:06.

Will Conservative backbenchers force a Government re-think

:02:07.:02:10.

And is Theresa May about to cap gas and electricity prices?

:02:11.:02:14.

Whose idea was that first of all? They are all questions for the Week

:02:15.:02:23.

Ahead to. Let's start with the story that is

:02:24.:02:33.

too much fun to miss, on Friday it was announced the former Chancellor

:02:34.:02:37.

would be the new editor of London's Evening Standard newspaper, a

:02:38.:02:42.

position he will take up in mid-May on a salary of ?200,000 for four

:02:43.:02:45.

days a week. But Mr Osborne has said he will not

:02:46.:02:49.

be stepping down as MP for Tatton in Cheshire,

:02:50.:02:52.

a job he's held since 2001, Alongside these duties,

:02:53.:02:55.

he's also chairman of While being committed to one day

:02:56.:02:58.

a week at Black Rock, an American asset management firm -

:02:59.:03:04.

a part-time role that earns him Then he's polishing his academic

:03:05.:03:06.

credentials, as a fellow at the McCain Institute,

:03:07.:03:12.

an American thinktank, And finally as a member

:03:13.:03:14.

of the Washington Speaker's Bureau, he also earns his keep

:03:15.:03:21.

as an after-dinner speaker, banking around ?750,000

:03:22.:03:28.

since last summer. So there you go. Nice little earners

:03:29.:03:40.

if you can get them. The problem, though, is he has put second jobs on

:03:41.:03:43.

the agenda and lots of his fellow MPs are not happy because they have

:03:44.:03:47.

got second jobs but not making that kind of money. No, and a lot of MPs

:03:48.:03:53.

on both sides actually are unhappy about it exactly for those reasons.

:03:54.:03:57.

I find it a very interesting appointment. We have got these

:03:58.:04:01.

people on the centre and centre right of politics who have been used

:04:02.:04:06.

to power since 1997, they have been on the airwaves today, Tony Blair,

:04:07.:04:10.

Nick Clegg, George Osborne, and they are all seeking other platforms now

:04:11.:04:15.

because power has moved elsewhere. So Tony Blair is setting up this new

:04:16.:04:19.

foundation, Nick Clegg refused to condemn George Osborne, Tony Blair

:04:20.:04:23.

praised the appointment. They are all searching for new platforms.

:04:24.:04:29.

They might have overestimated the degree to which this will be a huge

:04:30.:04:33.

influential platform. The standard was very pro-Tory at the 2015

:04:34.:04:39.

election but London voted Labour, it was pro-Zac Goldsmith but they

:04:40.:04:43.

elected Sadiq Khan. It might be overestimating the degree to which

:04:44.:04:47.

this is a hugely influential paper. But I can see why it attracts him as

:04:48.:04:52.

a platform when all these platforms have disappeared, eg power and

:04:53.:04:58.

government. All of these people who used to be in power are quietly

:04:59.:05:03.

getting together again, Mr Blair on television this morning, George

:05:04.:05:07.

Osborne not only filling his bank account but now in charge of

:05:08.:05:12.

London's most important newspaper, Nick Clegg out today not saying

:05:13.:05:16.

Brexit was a done deal, waiting to see what happens, even John Major

:05:17.:05:22.

was wheeled out again today in the Mail on Sunday. They are all playing

:05:23.:05:26.

for position. I half expect David Cameron to turn up as features

:05:27.:05:31.

editor on The Evening Standard. Brexit and breakfast! With Mr Clegg,

:05:32.:05:38.

did he not? I do not think this is sustainable for George Osborne, I

:05:39.:05:41.

worked at The Evening Standard and I was there for three years, I know

:05:42.:05:45.

what the hours are like for a humble journalist, never mind the editor.

:05:46.:05:49.

If he thinks he can get at 4am everyday to be in the offices at 5am

:05:50.:05:53.

to oversee the splash, manage everything in the way and edited

:05:54.:05:57.

should he is in cloud cuckoo land. What this says to people is there is

:05:58.:06:02.

a kind of feel of soft corruption about public life here, where you

:06:03.:06:06.

see what you can get away with. He thinks he can brazen this out and

:06:07.:06:09.

maybe he can but what kind of message does that send to people

:06:10.:06:12.

about how seriously people take the role of being an MP? He must have

:06:13.:06:18.

known. He applied for the job. The Russian owner didn't approach him,

:06:19.:06:23.

he approached Lebedev, the proprietor, for it. He must have

:06:24.:06:28.

calculated there would be some kickback. I wonder if he realised

:06:29.:06:32.

there would be quite the kickback there has been. I think that's

:06:33.:06:36.

probably right. This hasn't finished yet, by the way, this will go on and

:06:37.:06:40.

on. How on earth does George Osborne cover the budget in the autumn? Big

:06:41.:06:45.

budget, lots of physical changes and tax rises to deal with the messages

:06:46.:06:50.

out of this week. You can see already, Theresa May budget crashes.

:06:51.:06:56.

It could be worse. She's useless! Or, worse than that, me, brilliant

:06:57.:07:01.

budget, terrible newspaper, I've never buying it again. He has

:07:02.:07:07.

hoisted his own petard. He has not bought it properly through. It's a

:07:08.:07:10.

something interesting about his own future calculations, if he wants to

:07:11.:07:17.

stay on as an MP in 2020 and be Prime Minister as he has or was

:07:18.:07:20.

wanted to be he has got to find a new seat. How do you go into an

:07:21.:07:24.

association and say I should be an MP, I can do it for at least four

:07:25.:07:29.

hours Purdy after editing The Evening Standard, making a big

:07:30.:07:32.

speech and telling Black Rock how to make a big profit. The feature pages

:07:33.:07:39.

have to be approved for the next day and feature pages are aware the

:07:40.:07:44.

editor gets to make their mark. The news is the news. The feature is

:07:45.:07:49.

what concerns you, what he is in your bonnet. That defines the

:07:50.:07:52.

newspaper, doesn't it? It is not over yet. Too much 101 on

:07:53.:08:02.

newspapers. And Haatheq at. School funding, the consultation

:08:03.:08:05.

period ends, it has been a tricky one for the government, some areas

:08:06.:08:13.

losing. I guess we are seeing this through the prism of the National

:08:14.:08:16.

Insurance contributions now, it is a small majority, if Tory MPs are

:08:17.:08:23.

unhappy she may not get her way. Talking to backbench MPs who are

:08:24.:08:28.

unhappy the feeling is it is not going to go ahead in the proposed

:08:29.:08:33.

form that the consultation has been on. No 10 will definitely have to

:08:34.:08:37.

move on this. It is unclear whether they will scrap it completely, or

:08:38.:08:41.

will they bring in something possibly like a base level, floor

:08:42.:08:46.

level pupil funding below which you can't go? You would then still need

:08:47.:08:51.

to find some extra money. So there are no easy solutions on this but

:08:52.:08:55.

what is clear it is not going to go ahead in its current form. Parents

:08:56.:08:58.

have been getting letters across the country in England about what this

:08:59.:09:03.

will mean for teachers and so on in certain schools. It's not just a

:09:04.:09:06.

matter of the education Department, the schools, or the teachers and

:09:07.:09:11.

Tory backbenchers. Parents are being mobilised on this. The point of the

:09:12.:09:16.

new funding formula is to allocate more money to the more

:09:17.:09:20.

disadvantaged. That means schools in the more prosperous suburbs are

:09:21.:09:24.

going to lose money. Budget cuts on schools which are already

:09:25.:09:28.

struggling. It comes down again to be huge problem, the ever smaller

:09:29.:09:33.

fiscal pool, ever greater demands, NHS, social care, education as well,

:09:34.:09:38.

adding to Theresa May and Phillip Hammond's enormous problems. Here is

:09:39.:09:42.

an interesting issue, Steve. There was a labour Leader of the

:09:43.:09:47.

Opposition that once suggested perhaps given these huge energy

:09:48.:09:51.

companies which seemed to be good at passing on energy rises but not so

:09:52.:09:55.

good at cutting energy prices when it falls, that perhaps we should put

:09:56.:09:59.

a cap on them until at least we study how the market goes. This was

:10:00.:10:03.

obviously ludicrous Marxism and quite rightly knocked down by the

:10:04.:10:08.

Conservatives, except that Mrs May is now talking about putting a cap

:10:09.:10:12.

on energy prices. Yes, I think if it wasn't for Brexit we would focus

:10:13.:10:15.

much more on Theresa May's Ed Miliband streak. Whether this

:10:16.:10:21.

translates into policies, let us see. That bit we don't know. That

:10:22.:10:25.

bit we don't know but in terms of argument her speech to the

:10:26.:10:29.

Conservative conference on Friday was about the third or fourth time

:10:30.:10:33.

where she said as part of the speech, let's focus on the good that

:10:34.:10:38.

government can do, including in intervening in markets, exactly in

:10:39.:10:43.

the way that he used to argue. As you say, we await the policy

:10:44.:10:46.

consequences of that. She seems more cautious in terms of policy in

:10:47.:10:50.

fermentation. But in terms of the industrial strategy, in terms of

:10:51.:10:55.

implying intervention in certain markets, there is a kind of

:10:56.:10:59.

Milibandesque streak. And there comes a time when she has to walk

:11:00.:11:03.

the walk as well as talk the talk. They talk a lot about the just about

:11:04.:11:09.

managing, just about managing face rising food bills because of the

:11:10.:11:13.

lower pound and face rising fuel bills because of the rise in oil and

:11:14.:11:19.

in other commodities. One of the two things you could do to help the just

:11:20.:11:24.

about managing is to cut their food bills and the second would be to cut

:11:25.:11:27.

their fuel bills. At some stage she has to do something for them. We

:11:28.:11:31.

don't know what is going to happen to food bills under Brexit, that

:11:32.:11:35.

could become a really serious issue. They could abolish tariffs. There

:11:36.:11:39.

has been a lot of talking the talk and big announcements put out and

:11:40.:11:42.

not following through so I agree with you on that but lots of Tory

:11:43.:11:44.

MPs will have a big problem on this and the principle of

:11:45.:11:59.

continually talking about interfering in markets, whether it's

:12:00.:12:02.

on executive pay, whether it is on energy, at a time when Britain needs

:12:03.:12:04.

to send out this message to the world in their view, in the view of

:12:05.:12:07.

Brexit supporting MPs, that we are open for business and the government

:12:08.:12:10.

is not about poking around and doing this kind of thing. Of course, you

:12:11.:12:13.

could argue there is not a problem in the market for energy, it is a

:12:14.:12:15.

malfunctioning market that doesn't operate like a free market should,

:12:16.:12:18.

so that provides even Adam Smith, the inventor of market economics

:12:19.:12:22.

would have said on that basis you should intervene. I was in Cardiff

:12:23.:12:25.

to listen to Theresa May's latest explanation for doing this. By the

:12:26.:12:29.

way, we've been waiting nine months, this was one of her big ideas. You

:12:30.:12:34.

are right, let's see a bit of the meat, please. My newspaper has been

:12:35.:12:38.

calling for some pretty hefty government action on this for quite

:12:39.:12:41.

some time. For the just about managings? Yes and specifically to

:12:42.:12:47.

sort out an energy market dominated by the big six, which is manifestly

:12:48.:12:51.

ripping people off left, right and centre. Theresa May's argument in

:12:52.:12:54.

Cardiff on Friday morning which, by the way, went down like a proverbial

:12:55.:13:00.

windbreak at the proverbial funeral because Tories... You know what I

:13:01.:13:04.

mean Andrew, the big hand coming into from the state telling

:13:05.:13:07.

businesses what to do. They went very quiet indeed. They were having

:13:08.:13:11.

saving the union and Nato but there was no clapping for that. The point

:13:12.:13:16.

being, this is what she needs to do to prove her assault, to prove those

:13:17.:13:19.

first words on the steps of Downing Street. We await to see the actions

:13:20.:13:24.

taken. On that unusual agreement we will

:13:25.:13:31.

leave it there. The Daily Politics will be back on BBC Two tomorrow at

:13:32.:13:33.

noon and everyday during the week. And I'll be here on BBC One

:13:34.:13:35.

next Sunday at 11am. Remember, if it's Sunday,

:13:36.:13:38.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:39.:13:40.

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