Browse content similar to 26/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics. | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone, | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
but do the security services have the resources and | :00:49. | :00:50. | |
We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons. | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power | :00:58. | :01:03. | |
Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
In the South... and the party's | :01:07. | :01:13. | |
The regeneration that's coming to a town near you, | :01:14. | :01:15. | |
but is it all a bit similar-looking, with too many high-end shopping | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political | :01:20. | :01:31. | |
panel in the business - Toby Young, Polly Toynbee | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme. | :01:35. | :01:40. | |
First, it was the most deadly terrorist attack | :01:41. | :01:42. | |
The attacker was shot dead trying to storm Parliament, | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
but not before he'd murdered four people and injured 50 - | :01:47. | :01:48. | |
one of those is still in a critical condition in hospital. | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
His target was the very heart of our democracy, | :01:53. | :01:54. | |
the Palace of Westminster, and he came within metres | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
of the Prime Minister and senior Cabinet ministers. | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
Without the quick actions of the Defence Secretary's | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
close protection detail, fortuitously in the vicinity | :02:05. | :02:05. | |
at the time, the outcome could have been even worse. | :02:06. | :02:14. | |
Janan Ganesh it is four days now, getting on. What thoughts should we | :02:15. | :02:22. | |
be having this weekend? First of all, Theresa May's Parliamentary | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
response was exemplary. In many ways, the moment she arrived as | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
prime minister and her six years as Home Secretary showed a positive | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
way. No other serving politician is as steeped in counterterror and | :02:35. | :02:36. | |
national security experience as she is and I think it showed. As to | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
whether politics is going now, it looks like the Government will put | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
more pressure on companies like Google and Facebook to monitor | :02:46. | :02:51. | |
sensor radical content that flows through their channels, and I wonder | :02:52. | :02:54. | |
whether beyond that the Government, not just our Government but around | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
the world, will start to open this question of, during a terror attack, | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
as it is unfolding, should there be restrictions on what can appear on | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
social media? I was on Twitter at the time last week, during the | :03:09. | :03:11. | |
attack, and people were posting things which may have been useful to | :03:12. | :03:18. | |
the perpetrators, not on that occasion but future occasions. | :03:19. | :03:20. | |
Should there be restrictions on what and how much people can post while | :03:21. | :03:26. | |
an attack is unfolding? I think we have learned that this is like the | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
weather, it is going to happen, it is going to happen all over the | :03:31. | :03:33. | |
world and in every country and we deal with it well, we deal with it | :03:34. | :03:39. | |
stoically, perhaps we are more used to it than some. We had the IRA for | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
years, we know how to make personal risk assessments, how to know the | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
chances of being in the wrong place at the wrong time are infinitesimal, | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
so people in London didn't say, I'm not going to go to the centre of | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
London today, everything carried on just the same. Because we know that | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
the odds of it, being unlucky, are very small. Life is dangerous, this | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
is another very small risk and it is the danger of being alive. I think | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
from an Isis Islamist propaganda point of view, it showed just what a | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
poor target London and the House of Commons is, and it is hard to | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
imagine the emergency services and local people, international | :04:24. | :04:26. | |
visitors, reacting much better than they did. And the fact that our | :04:27. | :04:33. | |
Muslim mayor was able to make an appearance so quickly afterwards | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
shows, I think, that we are not city riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice. | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
It couldn't really have been a better advertisement for the values | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
that is attacking. OK, thank you for that. | :04:46. | :04:48. | |
So, four days after the attack, what more do we know | :04:49. | :04:50. | |
The police have made 11 arrests, but only one remains | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
Here's Adam with the latest on the investigation. | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
According to a police timeline, that's how long it took | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
Khalid Masood to drive through a crowd on Westminster | :05:05. | :05:06. | |
to crash his car into Parliament's perimeter... | :05:07. | :05:13. | |
to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer, before being shot by a bodyguard | :05:14. | :05:16. | |
The public are leaving tributes to the dead at Westminster. | :05:17. | :05:27. | |
The family of PC Palmer released a statement saying: | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
"We would like to express our gratitude to the people | :05:33. | :05:35. | |
who were with Keith in his last moments and who were | :05:36. | :05:37. | |
There was nothing more you could have done, | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
you did your best and we are just grateful he was not alone." | :05:41. | :05:43. | |
Investigators say Masood's motive may have gone to the grave with him. | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
Officers think he acted alone, despite reports he spent a WhatsApp | :05:48. | :05:50. | |
The Home Secretary now has such encrypted messaging | :05:51. | :05:57. | |
There should be no place for terrorists to hide. | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
We need to make sure that organisations like WhatsApp, | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
and there are plenty of others like that, don't provide a secret | :06:06. | :06:08. | |
place for terrorists to communicate with each other. | :06:09. | :06:11. | |
It used to be that people would steam open envelopes or just | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
listen in on phones when they wanted to find out what people were doing, | :06:16. | :06:24. | |
legally, through warrantry, but in this situation | :06:25. | :06:26. | |
we need to make sure that our intelligence services | :06:27. | :06:28. | |
have the ability to get into situations like encrypted | :06:29. | :06:30. | |
She will ask the tech industry to suggest solutions | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
at a meeting this week, although she didn't rule out | :06:34. | :06:36. | |
But for those caught up in the attack, perhaps it will be | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
..not the policy implications that will echo the loudest. | :06:41. | :06:48. | |
We're joined now from the Hague by the Director of Europol, | :06:49. | :06:50. | |
the European Police Agency, Rob Wainwright. | :06:51. | :06:56. | |
What role has Europol played in the aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I | :06:57. | :07:04. | |
can tell you we are actively supporting the investigation, | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
because it is a live case I cannot of course go into the details, but | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
to give you some context, Andrew, this is one of about 80 | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
counterterrorist cases we have been supporting across Europe this year, | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
using a platform to shed thousands of intelligence messages between the | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
very large counterterrorist community in Europe, and also | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
tracking flows of terrorist finance, illegal firearms, and monitoring | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
this terrible propaganda online as well. All of that is being made | :07:31. | :07:39. | |
available now to the Metropolitan Police in London for this case. Do | :07:40. | :07:41. | |
we know if there is any European link to those who may have inspired | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
or directed Khalid Massoud? That is an active part of the inquiry being | :07:47. | :07:49. | |
led by Metropolitan Police and it is not for me to comment or speculate | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
on that. There are links of course in terms of the profile of the | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
attacker and the way in which he launched these terrible events in | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
Westminster, and those that we've seen, for example, in the Berlin | :08:04. | :08:06. | |
Christmas market last year and the attack in Nice in the summer of last | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
year, clear similarities between the fact that the attackers involved | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
have criminal background, somewhat dislocated from society, each of | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
them using a hired or stolen vehicle to deliberately aim at pedestrians | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
in a crowded place and using a secondary weapon, whether it is a | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
gun or a knife. So we are seeing a trend, I think, of the kind of | :08:32. | :08:34. | |
attacks across Europe in the last couple of years and some of that at | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
least was played out unfortunately in Westminster this week as well. | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
Mass and was known to the emergency services, so were many of those | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
involved in the Brussels, Paris and Berlin attacks, so something is | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
going wrong here, we are not completely across this, are we? | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
Actually most attacks are being stopped. This was I think at least | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
the 14th terrorist plot or attempted attack in Britain since 2013 and the | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
only one that has got through, and that fits a picture of what we see | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
in France last year, 17 attempted attacks that were stopped, for | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
example. Unfortunately some of them get through. But people on the | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
security services' Radar getting through, in Westminster, Brussels, | :09:21. | :09:23. | |
Paris and Berlin. There is clearly something we are not doing that | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
could stop that. Again, if you look at what happened in Berlin and at | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
least the first indications from what police are saying in London, | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
these are people that haven't really appeared on Baha'i target list of | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
the authorities, they are on the edge at best of radicalised | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
community -- on the high target list. When you are dealing with a | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
dispersed community of thousands of radicalised, Senate radicalised | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
individuals, it is very difficult to monitor them 24/7, very difficult | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
when these people, almost out of the blue and carry out the attacks that | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
they did. I think you have to find a sense of perspective here around the | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
work and the pressures of the work and the difficult target choices | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
that police and security authorities have to make around Europe. The Home | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
Secretary here in London said this morning it is time to tackle apps | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
like WhatsApp, which we believe Massoud was using, because they | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
encrypt from end to end and it is difficult for the security services | :10:27. | :10:29. | |
to know what is happening there. What do you say, are you up for | :10:30. | :10:35. | |
that? Across the hundreds of cases we have supported in recent years | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
there is no doubt that encryption, encrypted communications are | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
becoming more and more prominent in the way terrorists communicate, more | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
and more of a problem, therefore, a real challenge for investigators, | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
and that the heart of this is a stark inconsistency between the | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
ability of the police to lawfully intercept telephone calls, but not | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
when those messages are exchanged via a social media messaging board, | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
for example, and that is an inconsistency in society and we have | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
to find a solution through appropriate legislation perhaps of | :11:09. | :11:11. | |
these technologies and law enforcement agencies working in a | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
more constructive way. So you back that? I agree that there is | :11:15. | :11:21. | |
certainly a problem, absolutely. We know there was a problem, I'm trying | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
to find out if you agree with the Home Secretary's solution? I agree | :11:28. | :11:34. | |
certainly with her calls for changes to be made. What the legislative | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
solution for that is of course for her and other lawmakers to decide | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
but from my point of view, yes, I would agree something has to be done | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
to make sure we can apply more consistent interception of | :11:48. | :11:49. | |
communication in all parts of the way in which terrorists invade our | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol, thank you very much. | :11:55. | :11:56. | |
Here with me in the studio now is the Leader of the House | :11:57. | :11:59. | |
What did last week's attack tell us about the security of the Palace of | :12:00. | :12:07. | |
Westminster? It told us that we are looked after by some very | :12:08. | :12:10. | |
courageous, very professional police officers. There is clearly going to | :12:11. | :12:18. | |
be a lessons learned with you, as you would expect after any incident | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
of this kind. That will look very carefully at what worked well but | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
also whether there are changes that need to be made, that is already | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
under way. And that is being run by professionals, by the police and | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
security director at Parliament... Palace authorities, we will get | :12:40. | :12:48. | |
reports from the professionals, particularly our own Parliamentary | :12:49. | :12:51. | |
security director, and just as security matters in parliament are | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
kept under constant review, if there are changes that need to be made as | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
a result, then they will need to be made. Let's look at some of the | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
issues it has thrown up, as we get some distance from these appalling | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
events when our first reaction was always the people who lose their | :13:08. | :13:10. | |
lives and suffer, and then we start to become a bit more analytical. Is | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
it true that the authorities removed armed guards from Cowbridge gate, | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
where the attacker made his entry, because they looked to threatening | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
for tourists? -- carriage gate. No, the idea that a protest from MPs led | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
to operational changes simply not the case. What happened in the last | :13:31. | :13:37. | |
couple of years is that the security arrangements in new Palace Yard have | :13:38. | :13:40. | |
actually been strengthened, but I don't think your view was would | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
expect me to go into a detailed commentary upon operational security | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
matters. Why were the armed guards removed? There are armed guards at | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
all times in the Palace of Westminster, it is a matter for the | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
security authorities and in particular for the police and direct | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
command of those officers to decide how they are best deployed. Is it | :14:05. | :14:10. | |
because, as some from Scotland Yard sources have reported to the papers | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
this morning, was it done because of staffing shortages? I'm in no | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
position to comment on the details of the operation but my | :14:20. | :14:22. | |
understanding is that the number of people available is what the police | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
and the security authorities working together have decided to deploy and | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
that they think was commensurate with the threat that we faced. Is it | :14:32. | :14:37. | |
not of concern that as the incident unfolded the gates were left | :14:38. | :14:43. | |
unguarded by armed and unarmed, they were just unguarded, so much so | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
that, as it was going on, a career with a parcel on a moped at was able | :14:48. | :14:54. | |
to drive through? -- up career. I think we will need to examine that | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
case as part of looking into any lessons learned, but what I don't | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
yet know, because the police are still interviewing everybody | :15:05. | :15:06. | |
involved, witnesses and police officers involved, was exactly who | :15:07. | :15:12. | |
was standing where in the vicinity of the murder at a particular time. | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
We have seen pictures, the gates were unguarded as people were | :15:19. | :15:21. | |
concentrating on what was happening to the police man and to the | :15:22. | :15:27. | |
attacker, but the delivery man was able to come through the gates with | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
a parcel?! You have seen a particular camera angle, I think it | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
is important before we rush to judgment, and we shouldn't be | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
pointing fingers, we need... We are trying to get to the bottom of it. | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
To get to the bottom of it means we have to look at what all the | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
witnesses and all the police officers involved say about what | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
happened, and then there needs to be a decision taken about what if any | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
changes need to be made in light of that. | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
We know the attacker was stopped in his tracks by the Defence | :16:02. | :16:09. | |
Secretary's bodyguard, where was the armed roving unit that had replaced | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
the armed guard at the gate? I cannot comment on operation details | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
but my understanding is there were other armed officers who would have | :16:20. | :16:22. | |
been able to prevent the attacker from getting to the chamber, as has | :16:23. | :16:28. | |
been alleged it would be possible for him to do. Were you aware that a | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
so-called table top simulation, carried out by Scotland Yard and the | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
Parliamentary authorities, ended with four terrorists in this | :16:39. | :16:47. | |
simulation able to storm parliament and killed dozens of MPs? No, that | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
is the first time that has been mentioned to me. You are the leader | :16:53. | :17:00. | |
of the house. These matters are dealt with by security professionals | :17:01. | :17:06. | |
who are involved, they are advised by a security committee, chaired by | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
the Deputy Speaker, but we do not debate operational details in | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
public. I'm not asking for a debate, I raise this because it's been | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
reported because it's quite clear that after this simulation, it | :17:22. | :17:24. | |
raised serious questions about the security of the palace. Actions | :17:25. | :17:31. | |
should have followed. What I've said to you is that these matters are | :17:32. | :17:38. | |
kept under constant review and that there are always changes made both | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
in the deployment of individual officers and security guards of the | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
palace staff and other plans to strengthen the hard security of the | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
perimeter. If you look back at Hansard December last year, they was | :17:53. | :17:58. | |
a plan already been brought forward to strengthen the security at | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
carriage Gates, looking at questions of access. Will there be armed | :18:04. | :18:15. | |
guards now? You need to look not just at armed guards, you need to | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
look at the entirety of the security engagements including fencing. | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
There's lots about the security we don't need to know and shouldn't | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
know, but whether or not there are armed guards is something we will | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
find out quite soon and I'm asking you if you think there should be. If | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
you think the judgment is by our security experts that there need to | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
be more armed guards in certain places, then they will be deployed | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
accordingly, but I think before we rush to make conclusions about | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
lessons to be learned from Wednesday's appalling attack, it is | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
important the police are allowed to get on with completing the interview | :18:57. | :18:59. | |
of witnesses and their own officers, and then that there is considered | :19:00. | :19:05. | |
view taken about what changes might need to be made and then they will | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
be implemented. Let me come onto the triggering of Article 50 that begins | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
our negotiations to exit the European Union. It will happen on | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told Germany's most popular newspaper | :19:21. | :19:23. | |
that he wants to make an example of the UK to make everyone realise it's | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
not worth leaving the EU. What do you make of that? I think all sorts | :19:30. | :19:36. | |
of things are said in advance of negotiations beginning. Clearly the | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
commission will want to ensure the EU 27 holds together. As the Prime | :19:41. | :19:46. | |
Minister has said, that is a British national interest as well. She has | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
been very clear... What do you make of President Juncker's remark? It | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
doesn't surprise me ahead of negotiations but I think if rational | :19:57. | :20:04. | |
mutual interest is to the fore that it's perfectly possible for an | :20:05. | :20:07. | |
agreement to be negotiated between the UK and our 27 friends and allies | :20:08. | :20:14. | |
that addresses all of the issues from trade to security, police | :20:15. | :20:17. | |
cooperation, foreign policy co-operation, works for all | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
countries. The EU wants to agree a substantial divorce bill before it | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
will even discuss any future UK EU relations, what do you make of that? | :20:28. | :20:34. | |
Article 50 says the terms of exit need to be negotiated in the context | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
of the kind of future relationship that's going to exist between the | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
departing country and the remaining member states. It seems it is simply | :20:44. | :20:48. | |
not possible to separate those two. Clearly there will need to be a | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
discussion about joint assets and join liabilities but I think if we | :20:54. | :20:56. | |
all keep to the fore the fact we will continue to be neighbours, we | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
will continue to be essential allies and trading partners, then it is | :21:02. | :21:03. | |
possible to come to a deal that works for all size. The | :21:04. | :21:20. | |
question is do you agree the divorce bill first and then look at the | :21:21. | :21:22. | |
subsequent relations we will have or do you do them both in parallel? | :21:23. | :21:25. | |
Article 50 itself says they have to run together. Do you think they have | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
to be done together or sequentially? I think it is impossible to separate | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
the two but we will get into negotiations very soon and then once | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
David Davis is sitting down with Michel Barnier and others and the | :21:40. | :21:46. | |
national governments become involved too, then I hope we can make steady | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
progress. An early deal about each other's citizens would be a good | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
piece of low hanging fruit. Is the Government willing to pay a | :21:56. | :22:03. | |
substantial divorce bill? The Prime Minister has said we don't rule out | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
some kind of continuing payments, for example there may be EU | :22:08. | :22:13. | |
programmes in the future in which we want to continue to participate. 50 | :22:14. | :22:19. | |
billion? We don't envisage long-term payments of vast sums of money. So | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
50 billion isn't even the Government ballpark? You are tempting me to get | :22:26. | :22:31. | |
into the detail of negotiation, that is something that will be starting | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
very soon and let's leave it to the negotiations. During the referendum | :22:36. | :22:43. | |
there was no talk from the Leave side about any question of | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
separation bill, now the talk is of 50 billion and I'm trying to find | :22:49. | :22:51. | |
out if the British government thinks that of amount is on your radar. The | :22:52. | :23:02. | |
Government is addressing the situation in which we now are, which | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
is that we have a democratic obligation to implement the decision | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
of the people in the referendum last year, and that we need to do that in | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
a way that maximises the opportunity, the future prosperity | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
and security of everybody in the UK. Let me try one more thing on the | :23:22. | :23:24. | |
Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper will be published I think on | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
Thursday, is that right? We haven't announced an exact date but you will | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
see the white Paper very soon. Let's say it is Thursday, it will enshrine | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
thousands of EU laws into UK law, it will use what's called Henry VIII | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
powers, who of course was a dictator. Is this an attempt to | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny? No, we are repealing the Communities | :23:52. | :23:58. | |
Act 1972, then put existing EU legal obligations on the UK statutory | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
footing, so business know where they stand. Then, because a lot of those | :24:03. | :24:09. | |
EU regulations will for example refer to the commission or another | :24:10. | :24:16. | |
regulator, you need to substitute a UK authority in place so we need to | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
have a power under secondary legislation to tweak the European | :24:22. | :24:32. | |
regulators so it is coherent. This is weather Henry VIII powers come | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
in. It is secondary legislation and the scope, the definition of those | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
powers and when they can be used in what circumstances is something the | :24:43. | :24:45. | |
parliament will have to approve in voting through the bill itself. And | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
if it is as innocuous as you say, will you accept the proposal of the | :24:51. | :24:56. | |
Lords for an enhanced scrutiny process on the secondary | :24:57. | :24:59. | |
legislation? Neither the relevant committee of the House of Lords, the | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
constitution committee, nor anyone else has seen the text of the bill | :25:05. | :25:09. | |
and I think when it comes out, I hope that those members of the House | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
of Lords will find that reassuring, but as I say the definition of those | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
powers are something the parliament itself will take the final decision. | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
David Lidington, thank you for being with us. | :25:25. | :25:26. | |
So, Ukip has lost its only MP - Douglas Carswell. | :25:27. | :25:28. | |
He defected to Ukip from the Conservative Party | :25:29. | :25:30. | |
almost three years ago, but yesterday announced | :25:31. | :25:32. | |
that he was quitting to sit as an independent. | :25:33. | :25:34. | |
His surprise defection came in August 2014 saying, | :25:35. | :25:36. | |
"Only Ukip can shake up that cosy little clique called Westminster". | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
But his bromance with Nigel Farage turned sour when Mr Carswell | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
criticised the so-called "shock and awful" strategy as | :25:44. | :25:45. | |
Then, during the EU referendum campaign last year, Nigel Farage | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
was part of the unofficial Leave.EU campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell | :25:51. | :25:53. | |
opted to support the official Vote Leave campaign. | :25:54. | :25:59. | |
Just last month, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage | :26:00. | :26:01. | |
accused Douglas Carswell of thwarting his chances | :26:02. | :26:03. | |
of being awarded a knighthood, writing that, | :26:04. | :26:05. | |
Announcing his resignation on his website yesterday, | :26:06. | :26:13. | |
Mr Carswell said, "I desperately wanted us to leave the EU. | :26:14. | :26:15. | |
Now we can be certain that that is going to happen, I have | :26:16. | :26:18. | |
decided that I will be leaving Ukip." | :26:19. | :26:21. | |
When Mr Carswell left the Conservative Party in 2014 | :26:22. | :26:23. | |
he resigned as an MP, triggering a by-election. | :26:24. | :26:26. | |
"I must seek permission from my boss," he said referring | :26:27. | :26:29. | |
This time, though, Mr Carswell has said there will be no by-election. | :26:30. | :26:37. | |
We're joined now from Salford by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall. | :26:38. | :26:44. | |
Welcome back to the programme. Are you happy to see the back of your | :26:45. | :26:53. | |
only MP? Well, do you know, I'm always sad when people leave Ukip at | :26:54. | :26:59. | |
a grass roots level or Parliamentary level, but I'm sad but I'm not | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
surprised by this. There has been adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
past couple of years, his relationship with Nigel Farage | :27:10. | :27:12. | |
certainly hasn't helped, and it is a hangover from the former regime | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
which I inherited. I try to bring the party together, I thought I had | :27:18. | :27:20. | |
done that for a few months but it seems now as if I was only papering | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
over the cracks. Douglas has gone and I think we will move on and be a | :27:25. | :27:32. | |
more unified party as a result. Did Douglas Carswell jump because he | :27:33. | :27:35. | |
expected to be pushed out your national executive committee | :27:36. | :27:38. | |
tomorrow? He came before the National executive committee to | :27:39. | :27:41. | |
answer questions regarding issues that have come to the fore over the | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
last couple of months. There was the knighthood issue, the issue | :27:47. | :27:53. | |
surrounding the Thanet election and his comments in a book which came | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
out regarding Brexit. So was he under suspicion? He was coming to | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
answer these questions and they would have been difficult. So he did | :28:03. | :28:10. | |
jump in your view? No, I'm not saying he would have been pushed out | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
of the party but he would have faced difficult questions. What is clear | :28:15. | :28:22. | |
is that a fissure had developed and I'm not surprised by him leaving the | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
party. You have also lost Diane James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks, | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
you failed to win the Stoke by election, Mr Carswell is now a | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
pundit on US television, Ukip now stands for the UK irrelevance party, | :28:38. | :28:44. | |
doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday on 12%, membership continues to | :28:45. | :29:00. | |
rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4 million people voted for Ukip. Over | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
the summer exciting things will be happening in the party, we will | :29:06. | :29:08. | |
rewrite the constitution, restructure the party, it will have | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
a new feel to it and we will be launching pretty much the post | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used to pay quite a lot of your bills, he | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
said the current leadership, that would be you, couldn't knock the | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
skin off a rice pudding, another way of saying you are relevant, isn't | :29:27. | :29:32. | |
it? I don't think that's fair. I've only been in the job since November | :29:33. | :29:38. | |
the 28th, we have taken steps to restructure the party already, the | :29:39. | :29:41. | |
party is on a sound financial footing, we won't have a problem | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
money wise going forward. It is a party which can really unified, look | :29:46. | :29:51. | |
forward to the post Brexit Iraq, tomorrow we are launching our Brexit | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
test for the Prime Minister. If it wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have | :29:56. | :30:02. | |
been a referendum and we wouldn't have Brexit. Every time you say you | :30:03. | :30:05. | |
will unified, someone else leaves. Is Arron Banks still a member? No, | :30:06. | :30:11. | |
not at this moment in time. He has been a generous donor in the past, | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
he's done a great job of ensuring we get Brexit and I'm thankful for that | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
but he isn't a member. He has just submitted an invoice of ?2000 for | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
the use of call centres, will you pay that? No. That should be | :30:26. | :30:35. | |
interesting to watch. In the aftermath of the Westminster | :30:36. | :30:40. | |
attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News that it vindicates Donald Trump's | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
extreme vetting of migrants. Since the attacker was born in Kent, like | :30:45. | :30:50. | |
Nigel Farage, can you explain the relevance of the remark? I | :30:51. | :30:54. | |
personally haven't supported Donald Trump's position on this, but what I | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
will say, this is what Nigel has said as well, we have a problem | :30:59. | :31:03. | |
within the Muslim community, it is a small number of people who hate the | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
way we live... Can you explain the relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr | :31:09. | :31:11. | |
Farage also made the point about multiculturalism being the | :31:12. | :31:28. | |
problem as well and he is correct on that because we cannot have separate | :31:29. | :31:29. | |
communities living separate lives and never integrating. How would | :31:30. | :31:32. | |
extreme vetting of migrants help you track down a man who was born in | :31:33. | :31:35. | |
Kent? In this case it wouldn't. Maybe in other cases it would. But, | :31:36. | :31:38. | |
as I say, I'm not a supporter of Donald Trump's position on extreme | :31:39. | :31:41. | |
vetting, never have been, so I'm the wrong person to ask the question | :31:42. | :31:45. | |
too, Andrew. That has probably become clear in my efforts to get | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
you to answer it. Let me as too, should there be a by-election in | :31:50. | :31:53. | |
Clacton now? Douglas has called by-elections in the past when he has | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
left a political party, I know certain people in Ukip are keen to | :31:58. | :32:04. | |
go down this line, Douglas is always keen on recall and if 20% of people | :32:05. | :32:06. | |
in his constituency want a by-election then maybe we should | :32:07. | :32:09. | |
have won. Ukip will be opening nominations for Clacton very soon. | :32:10. | :32:16. | |
Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have Douglas Carswell here in the studio. | :32:17. | :32:23. | |
Why not call a by-election? I'm not switching parties. You are, you are | :32:24. | :32:29. | |
becoming independent. There is a difference, I've not submitted | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
myself to the whip up a new party, if I was, I would be obliged to | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
trigger a by-election. If every time an MP in the House of Commons | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
resigned the whip or lost the whip, far from actually strengthening the | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
democracy against the party bosses, that would give those who ran | :32:46. | :32:50. | |
parties and enormous power, so I'm being absolutely consistent here, | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
I'm not joining a party. It is a change of status and Nigel Farage | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
has just said he will write to every constituent in Clacton and he wants | :33:00. | :33:07. | |
to try and get 20% of constituents to older by-election. We are going | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
to testing, he says, write to every house in Clacton, find out if his | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
constituents want a by-election, if 20% do we will find out if Mr | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
Carswell is honourable. I'm sure they will be delighted to hear from | :33:21. | :33:26. | |
Nigel. There have been several by-elections when Nigel has had the | :33:27. | :33:29. | |
opportunity to contact the electorate we did -- which did not | :33:30. | :33:35. | |
always go to plan. If you got 20%, would you? Yesterday I sent an | :33:36. | :33:39. | |
e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I have had a lot of responses back, | :33:40. | :33:44. | |
overwhelmingly supported. Recently you said you were 100% Ukip, now you | :33:45. | :33:51. | |
are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa May triggering article 50, we won, | :33:52. | :33:56. | |
Andrew. You knew a few months ago she was going to do that. On June | :33:57. | :34:01. | |
the 24th I had serious thought about making the move but I wanted to be | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
absolutely certain that Article 50 would be triggered and I think it is | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
right. This is why ultimately Ukip exists, to get us out of the | :34:11. | :34:13. | |
European Union. We should be cheerful instead of attacking one | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
another, this is our moment, we made it happen. Did you try to sideline | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
the former Ukip leader during the referendum campaign? Not at all, I | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
have been open about this, the idea I have been involved in subterfuge. | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
You try to sideline him openly rather than by subterfuge? I made | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
the point we needed to be open, broad and progressive to win. I made | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
it clear in my acceptance speech in Clacton and when I said that Vote | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
Leave should get designation that the only way Euroscepticism would | :34:45. | :34:47. | |
win was by being more than just angry natives. What do you make of | :34:48. | :34:53. | |
that? I am over the moon that we have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas | :34:54. | :35:01. | |
I rarely have that much confidence in Theresa May because history | :35:02. | :35:04. | |
proves that she is good at talking the talk but in walking the walk | :35:05. | :35:08. | |
often fails, and I'm disappointed because I wanted Douglas to be part | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
of the post Brexit Ukip where we move forward with a raft of domestic | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
policies and go on to take seat at Westminster. Do you think you try to | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
sideline Mr Farage during the referendum campaign? Vote Leave | :35:22. | :35:24. | |
certainly didn't want Nigel Farage front of house, we know that. They | :35:25. | :35:31. | |
freely admit that, they admitted it on media over the past year. Nigel | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
still was front of house because he is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for | :35:38. | :35:41. | |
Nigel, as I said earlier, we wouldn't have at the referendum and | :35:42. | :35:44. | |
we wouldn't have achieved Brexit because Nigel Farage appeals, like | :35:45. | :35:50. | |
Ukip to a certain section of the population. If our primary motive is | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
to get us out of the European Union, why are we having this row, why | :35:55. | :35:57. | |
can't we just celebrate what is happening on Wednesday? We can, but | :35:58. | :36:01. | |
you are far more confident that Theresa May will deliver on this | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
than I am. Ukip may have been a single issue pressure group ten | :36:07. | :36:09. | |
years ago, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you joined in | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
2014, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you stood for in | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
2015 at the general election, and I'm disappointed that you have left | :36:19. | :36:22. | |
us when we are moving onto an exciting era. What specifically | :36:23. | :36:26. | |
gives you a lack of confidence in Mrs May's ability deliver? Her | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
record as Home Secretary, she said she would deal with radical Islam, | :36:32. | :36:35. | |
nothing happened, she said she would get immigration down to the tens of | :36:36. | :36:39. | |
thousands, last year in her last year as Home Secretary as city the | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
size of Newcastle came to this country, that is not tens of | :36:44. | :36:46. | |
thousands. I think we need to take yes for an answer eventually. The | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
problem with some Eurosceptics is they never accept they have won the | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
argument. We have one, Theresa May is going to do what we have wanted | :36:56. | :36:59. | |
her to do, let's be happy, let's celebrate that. But let's wait until | :37:00. | :37:03. | |
she starts bartering things away, until she betrays our fishermen, | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
just as other Conservative prime ministers have done in the past. | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
Let's wait until we end up still paying some sort of membership fee | :37:12. | :37:15. | |
into the European Union or a large divorce bill. That is not what | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
people voted for on June the 23rd and if you want to align yourself | :37:20. | :37:28. | |
with that, you are clearly not a Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip | :37:29. | :37:31. | |
to have relevance, it has to go wrong? I'm confident politics will | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
come back to our terms but -- our turf but there will be a post Brexit | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
Ukip that will stand for veterans, book slashing the foreign aid bill | :37:41. | :37:43. | |
and becoming the party of law and order. Finally, to you, Douglas | :37:44. | :37:49. | |
Carswell, you say you have confidence in Mrs May to deliver in | :37:50. | :37:55. | |
the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't. You backed her, you were | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
Conservative, you believe that Brexit will be delivered under a | :38:01. | :38:03. | |
Conservative Government. Why would you not bite the 2020 election as a | :38:04. | :38:09. | |
Conservative? I feel comfortable being independent. If you join a | :38:10. | :38:12. | |
party you have to agree to a bunch of stuff I would not want to agree | :38:13. | :38:15. | |
with. I am comfortable being independent. So you will go into | :38:16. | :38:24. | |
2020 as an independent? If you look at the raising of funds, what Vote | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
Leave did as a pop-up party... We only have five seconds, will you | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
fight as an independent in the next general election? Let's wait and | :38:33. | :38:36. | |
see. Very well! Thank you both very much. | :38:37. | :38:51. | |
On today's show, our towns and cities are undergoing a bit | :38:52. | :39:02. | |
of a regeneration boom at the moment - but is it all a bit corporate | :39:03. | :39:05. | |
and just about high-end shopping centres and expensive flats? | :39:06. | :39:08. | |
First, let's meet the two politicians, who will be | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
Robert Gould is the Conservative leader of Dorset County Council | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
and Bob Price is the Labour leader of Oxford City Council. | :39:18. | :39:19. | |
Both of you are engaged in reorganising councils now. You're | :39:20. | :39:30. | |
waiting to hear from The Secretary of State on Dorset. You are quite | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
concerned about the idea to create one Oxon. You are fighting it. You | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
think it would be better to have an elected city may? We are working | :39:40. | :39:46. | |
with all the districts until December on a combined authority bid | :39:47. | :39:52. | |
with an elected official. And in the New Year the county and two | :39:53. | :39:56. | |
districts turned their backs on the proposal and went for a unitary | :39:57. | :39:59. | |
option. We are now in combat with them about that proposition. And you | :40:00. | :40:05. | |
are locked in combat with the district councils, three out of six | :40:06. | :40:09. | |
saying they do not want Dorset to split into two councils. Not at all, | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
actually. We have quite a high level of agreement and we want to replace | :40:15. | :40:21. | |
the existing nine, two unitary, six district and county council, with | :40:22. | :40:24. | |
two brand-new councils which I think will be more efficient, more | :40:25. | :40:27. | |
accountable and more transparent for decision-making. And much more | :40:28. | :40:33. | |
significant savings can be made by doing that. Possibly pop with the | :40:34. | :40:36. | |
public, getting rid of so many councillors! It is true. 330 odd, | :40:37. | :40:45. | |
they played an important role but do we need that many for a place the | :40:46. | :40:49. | |
size of Dorset? I think we can do it. We have got a lot of good town | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
and parish councillors and I think their role should be valued and | :40:54. | :40:56. | |
enhanced for the future. That is something we are keen on. You will | :40:57. | :41:02. | |
save 108,000,006 years? That is the basic projection. We think we can go | :41:03. | :41:11. | |
further than bad. -- 100 ?8 million in six years. Now people that wants | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
to do one Oxon come they say they can save ?100 million over five | :41:16. | :41:23. | |
years. That is why we are sceptical about it. They're all sorts of | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
expensive reports that have been written. The evidence the savings is | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
minimal to say the least. If you look at the area where you might | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
make savings, like councillors in terms of the actual services | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
offered, reduction in back office costs in the last six years have | :41:42. | :41:44. | |
been enormous. There is not a lot left to be reduced. Areas for | :41:45. | :41:50. | |
reduction are in social care, in the county council remit. They had not | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
tackled transformation. You would not be doing this if you are not | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
having budgets cut. I think we should be doing it without the | :42:00. | :42:02. | |
budget card but it is a catalyst to get things moving. We had a | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
reference to transformation of services, really important, we are | :42:07. | :42:09. | |
doing a lot of that. The structures you have got limit what you can | :42:10. | :42:14. | |
transfer moving forward. I think we will continue the programme with or | :42:15. | :42:17. | |
without local government reform but it will be a great boost and help to | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
delivering those values. Do you think it will happen in Dorset? We | :42:23. | :42:28. | |
had positive feedback from the secretary of state. And will it | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
happen in Oxford? The Secretary of State has been clear that he would | :42:34. | :42:36. | |
like it to be bottom-up and consensus. Four of our MPs are in | :42:37. | :42:39. | |
opposition and public opinion is three quarters against. You were | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
going to say three quarters in favour! Very good research has been | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
carried out across the county. Our residents are strongly behind it. | :42:49. | :42:54. | |
Ours showed 70% against it and the county council's own engagement, 74% | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
against. We will see what can swing it and what can't. | :42:59. | :43:01. | |
Now, council tax bills have been dropping onto doormats over the last | :43:02. | :43:04. | |
few weeks and the chances are you've noticed an extra line in there, | :43:05. | :43:07. | |
as they add the special levy to pay for adult social care. | :43:08. | :43:10. | |
Throw in the extra two billion that the chancellor promised | :43:11. | :43:12. | |
in the budget and that's adult social care all sorted, | :43:13. | :43:15. | |
According to figures uncovered by the BBC's Panorama | :43:16. | :43:23. | |
programme this week, 95 councils have had home-care | :43:24. | :43:25. | |
contracts cancelled by the companies providing them because the payments | :43:26. | :43:27. | |
were too small, and a quarter of the UK's care home providers | :43:28. | :43:30. | |
Joining us now from our Tunbridge Wells studio | :43:31. | :43:33. | |
is Nadra Ahmed of the National Care Association. | :43:34. | :43:42. | |
You asked for more money, you are getting more money. Is there still a | :43:43. | :43:50. | |
problem? I think we welcome the money, of course. It is better than | :43:51. | :43:53. | |
nothing, which is what we have been getting for the last decade. And we | :43:54. | :43:56. | |
have at cuts in the social care budget. -- have had. This is not a | :43:57. | :44:04. | |
lot of money and it will not redress the challenge we face. Partly | :44:05. | :44:07. | |
because I think it is too little and because I think it is too little and | :44:08. | :44:12. | |
too late. But having said that, I think there is a responsibility to | :44:13. | :44:18. | |
be absolutely clear that this money is for front line services and not | :44:19. | :44:23. | |
to bolster social services departments. How much do you need? I | :44:24. | :44:30. | |
think we needed 2.4 billion to stand still. That was the calculation. You | :44:31. | :44:37. | |
got two billion plus whatever comes from the precept. That was to stand | :44:38. | :44:43. | |
still. Now we have to look at the forward projections. What we have is | :44:44. | :44:49. | |
1 million given this year. That is being divvied up among local | :44:50. | :44:55. | |
authorities. We do not know how they will use it. What we are talking | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
about is front-line services. Actually two billion in three years | :45:01. | :45:03. | |
is still not making a sustainable option. People have actually gone | :45:04. | :45:09. | |
out of business, there are people with 25% of the banks called a | :45:10. | :45:16. | |
zombie provision, walking towards the edge of the cliff scenario. And | :45:17. | :45:22. | |
this money will not help? I am hoping it will in some way, to | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
create some sustainability of just standing still. That is what we are | :45:27. | :45:30. | |
looking at with this money. It will not look at provision going forward. | :45:31. | :45:36. | |
We must remember that social care services are now delivering health | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
care tasks. That costs a lot more money than originally factored in. | :45:42. | :45:46. | |
You can understand people looking at the council tax Bill and wondering | :45:47. | :45:49. | |
how they can pay it, looking at the extra line and saying that is this a | :45:50. | :45:55. | |
bottomless pit? Unfortunately this is something we said at the very | :45:56. | :45:58. | |
beginning when the precept was introduced, that these kinds of | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
taxes can never be withdrawn or taken away when you have got an | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
ageing population. This is not about the same people we were looking | :46:08. | :46:11. | |
after 20 years ago. This is a very different scenario. Actually, when | :46:12. | :46:17. | |
you have got an ageing population, what we have done is systematically | :46:18. | :46:23. | |
failed to recognise that we need to have more social care in place to | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
meet rising demand. What we have done is reduce social care budgets, | :46:28. | :46:34. | |
look at reducing the social care provision and now we are wondering | :46:35. | :46:37. | |
why we are in the mess we are in, when we have more people who need | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
social care and not less. Is it just a sticking plaster, Bob Price? I | :46:42. | :46:48. | |
think the point she made about rising demand is important. We have | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
got an ageing population and increasingly people needing longer | :46:53. | :46:54. | |
periods of care. That requires specialist expertise in the home | :46:55. | :47:00. | |
rather than special places. I think there is a rising demand which is | :47:01. | :47:04. | |
probably not going to be covered. And for some councils it feels like | :47:05. | :47:07. | |
they are not necessarily spending all the money on adult social care, | :47:08. | :47:10. | |
because some people have moved it to other places. It certainly does not | :47:11. | :47:15. | |
apply in Dorset. We have a good record of getting people out of | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
hospital, or back home, or where most appropriate, which is better | :47:21. | :47:23. | |
value for everybody. We have increased costs because of things | :47:24. | :47:26. | |
like the National Living Wage, which is important, we want to make sure | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
people providing service gets a proper income but I think we need a | :47:31. | :47:34. | |
long-term solution. There was additional funding in the budget, | :47:35. | :47:38. | |
which is very welcome. I think the Government has got the message they | :47:39. | :47:42. | |
need to do something more radical to bring it in line. What would you | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
suggest? I think we need to work more effectively with health service | :47:47. | :47:48. | |
colleagues. We have a good record of colleagues. We have a good record of | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
that in Dorset. We need to do more. The budget, if we can pull it across | :47:53. | :47:53. | |
the better fund coming through in the better fund coming through in | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
later years in the settlement, that will help, but we need confidence we | :47:58. | :48:01. | |
have a long-term sustainable thing for the future. We cannot keep | :48:02. | :48:05. | |
adding extra... Andy Burnham's National care service. We also have | :48:06. | :48:11. | |
to work with providers. I am sorry but everybody fails to mention the | :48:12. | :48:14. | |
providers. Of course you need to work closely with health colleagues. | :48:15. | :48:20. | |
But it is the providers who are actually innovating to create the | :48:21. | :48:22. | |
services. You aren't even talking to them as legal counsel. Are you | :48:23. | :48:28. | |
talking enough? I agree with her point that it is important that it | :48:29. | :48:31. | |
is an important part of the whole system of getting people the | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
appropriate care. And we want people out of hospital and living | :48:37. | :48:39. | |
independently either at home or in a care home. This is a Labour | :48:40. | :48:44. | |
authority in Liverpool offering ?13.10 per hour to provide. How can | :48:45. | :48:52. | |
you pay minimum wage in Liverpool, even? ?13.10 an hour doesn't cover | :48:53. | :48:56. | |
it. And there is also the question of the providers having the right | :48:57. | :49:00. | |
accommodation for people to go in. We do not have enough accommodation | :49:01. | :49:02. | |
with the appropriate site for people to move into. Because we haven't | :49:03. | :49:09. | |
invested. It is bricks and mortar as well as care itself. Where should we | :49:10. | :49:14. | |
go from here? The integrated social care Bill is long overdue. Do you | :49:15. | :49:20. | |
think integration in itself? I think integration, if we know what it | :49:21. | :49:23. | |
means and somebody can focus down and tell me what they are talking | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
about, because there seems to be integration which is different in | :49:28. | :49:31. | |
some part of the country to others and in some places it doesn't exist | :49:32. | :49:35. | |
at all. Everybody tells me they are integrating. These transformation | :49:36. | :49:38. | |
plans mean nothing to the service user who is seeing less of their | :49:39. | :49:43. | |
demand being met and these are assessed needs they know they have | :49:44. | :49:49. | |
to fulfil, because we are creating a lonely environment for people | :49:50. | :49:52. | |
keeping them at home, people handing back contracts, they can't deliver | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
the service, so we are letting them down. Local authorities need to wake | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
up and work with providers. There is a crisis averted but there is one | :50:01. | :50:05. | |
around the corner. We have done some innovative work in Dorset, creating | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
our own a trading company to provide care services for people. I think we | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
need to join things up. But joining up with the health service is good | :50:14. | :50:15. | |
but we need to introduce efficiencies and accountability | :50:16. | :50:19. | |
which we have in local government into the health process to make sure | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
we get the best value. Thank you very much for joining us today. | :50:24. | :50:29. | |
Thank you. In terms of joining up, can I add, getting in early, | :50:30. | :50:34. | |
prevention rather than cure. Useful extra thought, Bob. Thank you. | :50:35. | :50:41. | |
Now, here's a topic to go to town on... | :50:42. | :50:44. | |
Urban regeneration schemes are springing up across the South. | :50:45. | :50:46. | |
It's city living like we've never seen it before. | :50:47. | :50:50. | |
But is it a brave new world or a corporate take-over? | :50:51. | :50:52. | |
Our Hampshire and Isle of Wight Political Reporter Jessica Parker | :50:53. | :50:55. | |
But the sea itself is rather hard to find. | :50:56. | :51:06. | |
Sorry, you haven't seen the sea, have you? | :51:07. | :51:19. | |
With a rather built-up waterside, you've really | :51:20. | :51:20. | |
Mayflower Park is one of the few places where people | :51:21. | :51:36. | |
can get near the water here and there's a plan to redevelop the | :51:37. | :51:39. | |
whole area, but not everyone's happy. | :51:40. | :51:46. | |
When I looked at the plans here, I was totally... | :51:47. | :51:49. | |
Shops, restaurants, a hotel and flats, a not untypical set | :51:50. | :51:53. | |
The same sterile spaces, little bit of paving, same thing | :51:54. | :52:03. | |
sticking up, same bit of green and the high end housing | :52:04. | :52:06. | |
and commercial development just dominating the | :52:07. | :52:07. | |
Commercial developments offering homes, retail and leisure | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
are of course springing up, or planned, across the South. | :52:12. | :52:13. | |
There's the Bracknell Lexicon, the Oxford | :52:14. | :52:15. | |
Westgate Centre and back in Southampton, West Q2 is being | :52:16. | :52:17. | |
finished up, but who is benefiting the most? | :52:18. | :52:19. | |
It's a partnership, so we benefit because we get the business | :52:20. | :52:28. | |
use to subsidise public services for everybody. | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
We get the jobs and opportunities for people that live here. | :52:33. | :52:35. | |
Development benefits because they get | :52:36. | :52:36. | |
a viable development in a | :52:37. | :52:37. | |
city that's growing and can make a profit. | :52:38. | :52:42. | |
Without companies making profits there will not be any taxes | :52:43. | :52:45. | |
Do people think it's all making the right kind of splash? | :52:46. | :52:50. | |
Definitely the regeneration here has been fantastic. | :52:51. | :52:52. | |
I have been here 21 years and it seems | :52:53. | :52:54. | |
to be a massive development, money that they've put into the city since | :52:55. | :52:57. | |
I think they've done some wonderful stuff down here. | :52:58. | :53:02. | |
The council have not got their act together over the years, but now | :53:03. | :53:09. | |
The nice thing is they have exposed the | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
And before, well, you could see a little bit here and there. | :53:14. | :53:16. | |
Simon Hill worked in council planning for decades. | :53:17. | :53:18. | |
Some years ago the answer was always build more land in the | :53:19. | :53:27. | |
In the last 20 years there has been much | :53:28. | :53:30. | |
more national policy towards | :53:31. | :53:31. | |
trying to intensify within the cities. | :53:32. | :53:38. | |
Not only to save countryside land, but also you get that intensity | :53:39. | :53:41. | |
of activity which makes it a more vibrant place. | :53:42. | :53:43. | |
And developers, what are they looking to do in general? | :53:44. | :53:46. | |
Some have got aspirations, they want to leave a good mark, they | :53:47. | :53:53. | |
want to be seen in a good category of developer. | :53:54. | :53:56. | |
There are others driven by the shareholders and | :53:57. | :53:58. | |
accountants and it is just, what is the mix of development we can get | :53:59. | :54:01. | |
And we can either sell or rent it afterwards. | :54:02. | :54:06. | |
So how can councils know their new plans future proof? | :54:07. | :54:14. | |
If you were to say what happened 20 years ago and | :54:15. | :54:20. | |
where we are now, 20 years ago nobody had the internet, internet | :54:21. | :54:23. | |
shopping didn't exist, so it is very difficult to predict. | :54:24. | :54:27. | |
Generally speaking, people are still going to | :54:28. | :54:30. | |
want to eat and see a film and still will need brilliant and excellent | :54:31. | :54:34. | |
public rail space, which is what we have got here. | :54:35. | :54:41. | |
For some, developer cash is being put before the community. | :54:42. | :54:43. | |
The planners, holy, holy, developers coming to Southampton, | :54:44. | :54:45. | |
they are going to give us some money and it is dominated by | :54:46. | :54:48. | |
There is no sense of place, to my knowledge. | :54:49. | :54:51. | |
Any big urban planning project can divide opinion. | :54:52. | :54:55. | |
Some will see it as an innovation and others | :54:56. | :54:57. | |
What is the perspective in Oxford, Bob? It is very difficult with | :54:58. | :55:11. | |
historic listed buildings to make development work. Then you have high | :55:12. | :55:15. | |
as prices, which I suppose may help in some ways. The Westgate | :55:16. | :55:22. | |
development going up now replaces an unpleasant 1974 development, which | :55:23. | :55:24. | |
rather destroyed the character of the inner-city part of the city. The | :55:25. | :55:27. | |
new development has been designed carefully to fit in with the more | :55:28. | :55:34. | |
historic part of the city. Four good architect companies working with the | :55:35. | :55:37. | |
Crown estate on a long-term high quality development, which will | :55:38. | :55:43. | |
combine, as Simon said, retail with cinema, leisure and very nice spaces | :55:44. | :55:48. | |
for cultural activity. With online are taking away from the shops, can | :55:49. | :55:55. | |
we rely on keeping the leisure industry to keep funding this or in | :55:56. | :55:58. | |
the end will we have another way to find to pay for city centres? People | :55:59. | :56:03. | |
still like shopping and going to restaurants. We have a large visitor | :56:04. | :56:04. | |
economy in Oxford with nine or 10 economy in Oxford with nine or 10 | :56:05. | :56:09. | |
million visitors per year. They like to look at the colleges, green | :56:10. | :56:12. | |
spaces but would also want to go shopping. And that costs you, as | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
well, to keep the green spaces. To clean the city centre, yes. This is | :56:18. | :56:24. | |
an interesting example, in Dorset. We are providing a range of houses | :56:25. | :56:28. | |
at low cost, affordable housing with open market housing employment. And | :56:29. | :56:33. | |
jobs, employment, retail. I think it linked back to what we were talking | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
about in terms of local government reorganisation, to get a joined up | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
strategic planning approach in the county, and also talking about care | :56:42. | :56:44. | |
we need the right accommodation for the people working in the care | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
sector. That is hard at the moment. We need appropriate affordable | :56:49. | :56:52. | |
housing in the right places. A real challenge. It feels like the | :56:53. | :56:55. | |
affordable housing has been pushed to one side for volume at the | :56:56. | :56:59. | |
moment. Obviously by increasing volume you increase availability. | :57:00. | :57:05. | |
That is important. Really? Build more houses? The prices... I think | :57:06. | :57:10. | |
we need to build more but in the right place. We need to make sure | :57:11. | :57:14. | |
that it is quality. Craig Reid Berry, good quality material, we | :57:15. | :57:18. | |
mention. People like it. -- we mention good quality material. Other | :57:19. | :57:24. | |
schemes like the Brewery Square and the regeneration, we do know retail | :57:25. | :57:30. | |
is changing and it is more of a recreational activity with more | :57:31. | :57:33. | |
restaurants and coffee places. We need to provide the right mixture. I | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
think it is important to get it right. Should we not still be | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
worried about housing, Bob? Yes, across the Southeast it is a very | :57:43. | :57:45. | |
big problem. The mixture is important. Some private affordable | :57:46. | :57:51. | |
and social rent, the mixture is important to get right to | :57:52. | :57:53. | |
accommodate different types of employee we have in the area. | :57:54. | :57:59. | |
Low-wage employees in retail and social care needs to have cheap rent | :58:00. | :58:04. | |
rather than expensive housing. I think that is quite true. We are | :58:05. | :58:07. | |
looking at all our assets to see if there is land that can be unlocked | :58:08. | :58:11. | |
to be used as potential care home usage, or development for low-cost | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
housing and rental. But it has to be a partnership. Yes, that is right. | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
We're looking at the public and private partnership. One key | :58:21. | :58:26. | |
priority is to rationalise property holdings as we work differently and | :58:27. | :58:29. | |
do not need so many properties. There is a lot of potential which we | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
need to unlock going forward. Finding a good partner is important. | :58:34. | :58:38. | |
We are part of estates on the Barton scheme and they are long-term | :58:39. | :58:42. | |
investments for quality. Pound rate is a good example. Interesting | :58:43. | :58:45. | |
examples, thank you. Now our regular round-up | :58:46. | :58:49. | |
of the political week The terrorist attack | :58:50. | :58:51. | |
in Parliament was marked by Here in Sussex and the Portsmouth | :58:52. | :58:59. | |
Guildhall, the bravery of the Bournemouth MP Tobias Ellwood, | :59:00. | :59:05. | |
praised by the Prime Minister. We will remember the extraordinary | :59:06. | :59:08. | |
efforts to save the life of PC Keith Palmer, including those by my right | :59:09. | :59:12. | |
honourable friend, the member for | :59:13. | :59:14. | |
Bournemouth East. Thames Water were handed a record | :59:15. | :59:19. | |
?20 million fine for Hundreds of fish were killed | :59:20. | :59:21. | |
in 2013, manholes overflowed, spilling sewage | :59:22. | :59:28. | |
into nature reserves. The Oxford Cycling Network launched | :59:29. | :59:33. | |
a vision for 366 miles of cycle routes, which will join every | :59:34. | :59:39. | |
major town in the county, at a cost A return to prefab housing could be | :59:40. | :59:43. | |
under way, with plans for a housing The city council will | :59:44. | :59:54. | |
then transport them Might send some of those at the A34 | :59:55. | :00:09. | |
and 35. I think Southampton would like to purchase them! Let's talk | :00:10. | :00:12. | |
about Tobias Ellwood quickly and the terrible events in Parliament. With | :00:13. | :00:17. | |
all respect to the people who died on the bridge and the others, has | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
there been too much in the media? Does it feed terrorism? I think we | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
have to be careful about the balance. One lesson, the value of | :00:26. | :00:31. | |
democracy, the important part of the country is the democratic process | :00:32. | :00:34. | |
and it is popular to criticise MPs and we need to remember how | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
important the processes. But we do need to get the coverage. But | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
actually the deaths on the bridge and the tourist visiting... And the | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
response of the emergency services. The police and health service | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
responded extraordinarily quickly and effectively and we should give | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
tribute to them. Our thoughts are with all those people affected by a | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
terrible thing but we have to try and carry on and learn lessons. | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
Democracy was the target. I was there and we got locked down. I | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
wonder if this had happened in Exeter or even Oxford, is it | :01:07. | :01:12. | |
different? Because it is Parliament? I think it would have been the same | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
reaction. People are immediately sympathetic to the victims and wants | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
to support, as Robert said, democracy and rule of law. It is | :01:23. | :01:28. | |
wonderful what kicks in when people support whatever they are doing and | :01:29. | :01:29. | |
our thoughts... We put a flag at our thoughts... We put a flag at | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
half-mast yesterday and I have had loads of letters of support. Thank | :01:35. | :01:35. | |
you. That's the Sunday Politics | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
in the South, thanks to my guests Next week, I'll be joined | :01:39. | :01:40. | |
by Labour's Rowenna Davis and Conservative MP Sir Gerald | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
Howarth. can see you nodding in agreement but | :01:45. | :01:46. | |
we don't have any more time! Thank you both for coming in, Andrew, back | :01:47. | :01:48. | |
to you. So yesterday the European Union | :01:49. | :01:54. | |
celebrated its 60th birthday at a party in Rome, the city | :01:55. | :02:11. | |
where the founding document Leaders of 27 EU countries | :02:12. | :02:14. | |
were there to mark the occasion - overshadowing it, though, | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
the continued terrorist threat, And on Wednesday Theresa May, | :02:19. | :02:20. | |
who wasn't in Rome yesterday, will trigger Article 50, | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
formally starting The President of the European | :02:24. | :02:24. | |
Council, Donald Tusk, made an appeal for unity | :02:25. | :02:28. | |
at the gathering. Today in Rome, we are renewing | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
the unique alliance of free nations that was initiated 60 years ago | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
by our great predecessors. At that time, they did not | :02:40. | :02:47. | |
discuss multiple speeds, they did not devise exits, | :02:48. | :02:50. | |
but despite all the tragic circumstances of the recent history | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
they placed all their faith Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that | :02:55. | :03:14. | |
has the Council of ministers, and on that council where every member of | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
the EU sits he is an important figure in what is now about to | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
happen. We have got to negotiate our divorce terms, we've got to agree a | :03:23. | :03:29. | |
new free trade deal, new crime-fighting arrangements, we've | :03:30. | :03:32. | |
got to repatriate 50 international trade agreements, and all of that | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
has to be ratified within two years, by 27 other countries. Can that | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
really happen?! I don't think it is inconceivable because it is in the | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
interests of those 27 EU member states to try and negotiate a deal | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
that we can all live with, because that would be preferable to Britain | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
crashing out within two years. But I think this is why Labour's position | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
is becoming increasingly incoherent. Keir Starmer has briefed today that | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
he will be making a speech tomorrow setting out six conditions which he | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
wants the deal to meet, otherwise Labour won't vote for it, but if | :04:09. | :04:10. | |
Labour doesn't vote for it that doesn't mean we will be able to | :04:11. | :04:31. | |
negotiate an extension, that would be incredibly difficult and require | :04:32. | :04:33. | |
the consent of each of the 27 member states, so if Labour votes against | :04:34. | :04:36. | |
it we will just crash out, it is effectively Labour saying no deal is | :04:37. | :04:39. | |
better than a poor deal, which is not supposed to be their position. | :04:40. | :04:41. | |
Labour's position may be incoherent but I was not asking about their | :04:42. | :04:43. | |
position, I was asking about the Government's position. The man | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
heading the Badila said he wants it ready by October next year so that | :04:47. | :04:48. | |
it can go through the ratification process, people looking at this | :04:49. | :04:50. | |
would think it is Mission: Impossible. It seems impossible to | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
me to be done in that time. The fact that it is 27 countries, the whole | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
of the European Parliament as well, there will be too many people | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
throbbing spanners in the works and quite rightly. We have embarked on | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
something that is truly terrible and disastrous, and the imagery we can | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
have of those 27 countries celebrating together 60 years of the | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
most extraordinary successful movement for peace, for shared | :05:21. | :05:23. | |
European values, and others not there... We were not there at the | :05:24. | :05:30. | |
start either, and we are not there now! And we have been bad partners | :05:31. | :05:37. | |
while we were inside, but now that we are leaving... They did not look | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
like it was a birthday party to me! I think it was, there was a sense of | :05:41. | :05:46. | |
renewal, Europe exists as a place envied in the world for its values, | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
for its peacefulness, that is why people flocked to its borders, that | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
is why they come here. Can you look at the agenda that faces the UK | :05:56. | :06:02. | |
Government and EU 27, is it not possible, in fact even likely, that | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
as the process comes to an end they will have to agree on a number of | :06:07. | :06:13. | |
areas of transitional arrangements? I think they will and they will have | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
to agree that soon, I would not be surprised if sometime soon there is | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
an understanding is not a formal decision that this is a process that | :06:22. | :06:24. | |
will extend over something closer to buy or seven than two years. On | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
Wednesday article 50 will be filed and there will be lots of excitement | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
and hubbub but nothing concrete can happen for a while. Elections in | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
France in May, elections in Germany which could really result in a | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
change of Government... That is the big change, Mrs Merkel might not be | :06:41. | :06:52. | |
there by October. And who foresaw that a few months ago? So you might | :06:53. | :06:55. | |
be into 28 Dean before you are into the substantive discussions about | :06:56. | :06:57. | |
how much market access or regulatory observance. I cannot see it being | :06:58. | :07:00. | |
completed in two years. I could see, if negotiations are not too | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
acrimonious, that transitional agreement taking place. Let's look | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
at the timetable again. The council doesn't meet until the end of April, | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
it meets in the middle of the French elections, the first round will have | :07:13. | :07:15. | |
taken place, they will need a second round so not much can happen. | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
President Hollande will be representing France, then the new | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
French government, if it is Marine le Pen all bets are off, but even if | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a party, he will not have a majority, | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
the French will take a long while to sort out themselves. Then it is | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
summer, we are off to the Cote d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian | :07:40. | :07:42. | |
elite, then we come back from that and the Germans are in an election, | :07:43. | :07:48. | |
it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
Schultz, he may have to try to form a difficult green red coalition, | :07:53. | :08:04. | |
that would take a while. Before you know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and | :08:05. | :08:07. | |
no substance has taken place, yet we are then less than a year before | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
this has to be decided. It is a big task and I'm sure Jana is right that | :08:12. | :08:13. | |
there will be transitional arrangements and not everything will | :08:14. | :08:16. | |
be concluded in that two year timetable, but in some respects what | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
you have described helps those of us on the Eurosceptic site because it | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
means they cannot really be a meaningful parliamentary vote on the | :08:25. | :08:27. | |
terms of the deal because nothing is going to be agreed quickly enough | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
for them to be able to go back and agree something else if Parliament | :08:33. | :08:35. | |
rejects it, so when the Government eventually have something ready to | :08:36. | :08:38. | |
bring before Parliament it will be a take it or leave it boat. How | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
extraordinary that people who have campaigned. Indeed give us our | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
country back and say, isn't it wonderful, we won't have a | :08:49. | :08:50. | |
meaningful boat for our parliamentarians of the most | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
important... We don't know what the negotiation, the package is, day by | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
day we see more and more complicated areas nobody ever thought about, | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
nobody mentioned during the campaign, all of which has to be | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
resolved and the European Council and the negotiators say nothing is | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
agreed until everything is agreed. You lead us into a catastrophe. | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
There will be plenty of opportunity for Parliament to have its say | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
following the introduction of the Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
there will be no Parliamentary time devoted. The final package is what | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
counts. We have two years to blog about this! | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
There was a big Proview -- pro-EU march yesterday... I was there! | :09:38. | :09:46. | |
Polly Toynbee was there, down to Parliament Square, lots of people | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
there marching in favour of the European Union. We can see the EU | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
flags there on flags, lots of national flags as well, the British | :09:56. | :10:02. | |
one. Polly, is it the aim of people like you still to stop Brexit, or to | :10:03. | :10:10. | |
soften Brexit? I think the aim is for the best you can possibly do to | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
limit the damage. Of course, if it happens that once people have had a | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
chance to see how much they were lied to during the campaign and how | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
dreadful the deal is likely to be, if it happens that enough people in | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
the population have changed their minds, then maybe... There is no | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
sign up yet. But we have not even begun, people have not begun to | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
confront what it is going to mean. Wait and see. I think it is just | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
being as close as we can. Is that credible, do you think, to stop it | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
or to ameliorate it in terms of the Remainers? I think it is far more | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
credible to try and stop it but even then the scope is limited. It is | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
fairly apparent Theresa May's interpretation of the referendum is | :10:56. | :10:56. | |
the country wants an end to free movement, there is probably no way | :10:57. | :11:17. | |
of doing that inside the single market. She also wants external | :11:18. | :11:20. | |
trade deals, no way of doing that outside the customs unit, said the | :11:21. | :11:23. | |
only night you can depend if you are pro-European is, let's not leave | :11:24. | :11:25. | |
without any trade pact, at least let's meet Canada and have a | :11:26. | :11:27. | |
formalised trade agreement. The idea of ace -- of a very soft exit is | :11:28. | :11:30. | |
gone now because the public really did want an end to free movement and | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
the Government really does want external trade deals. It depends | :11:34. | :11:35. | |
what changes in Europe. I think the momentum behind the Remoaning | :11:36. | :11:43. | |
movement will move away. One of the banners I saw being held up | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
yesterday by a young boy on the news was, don't put my daddy on a boat. | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
It gets a lot of its moral force from the uncertainty surrounding the | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
fate of EU nationals here and our resident in the remainder of the EU | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
and I think David Lidington is right that it will be concluded quite | :12:02. | :12:04. | |
quickly once negotiations start and that will take a lot of the heat and | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
momentum out of the remaining movement. Why didn't Theresa May | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
allow that amendment that said, we will do that, as an act of | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
generosity, we will say, of course those European citizens here are | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
welcome to stay? It would have been such a good opening move in the | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
negotiations, instead of which she blocked it. It does not augur well. | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
I have interviewed many Tories about this and put that point to them but | :12:33. | :12:35. | |
they often say the Prime minister's job is to look after UK citizen in | :12:36. | :12:43. | |
the EU... Bargaining chips, I think you have to be generous and you have | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
to wish you people in Spain and everywhere else where there are | :12:49. | :12:50. | |
British citizens would have responded. The British Government | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
did try and raise that with their EU counterparts and were told, we | :12:55. | :12:56. | |
cannot begin to talk about that until article 50 has been triggered. | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
Next week we will be able to talk about it. How generous it would have | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
been, we would have started on a better note. Didn't happen, we will | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
see what happens next with EU citizens. That is it for today, the | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
Daily Politics will be back tomorrow at midday and every day next week on | :13:15. | :13:16. | |
BBC Two as always. And there's also a Question Time | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
special live tomorrow night from Birmingham - | :13:20. | :13:21. | |
with guests including the Brexit Secretary David Davis, | :13:22. | :13:22. | |
Labour's Keir Starmer, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage | :13:23. | :13:24. | |
and the SNP's Alex Salmond - I'll be back next week | :13:25. | :13:27. | |
at 11am here on BBC One. Until then, remember - | :13:28. | :13:33. | |
if it's Sunday, it's MUSIC: The Elements | :13:34. | :13:35. | |
by Tom Lehrer # There's Attenborough, micro.bit, | :13:36. | :14:42. | |
The Bottom Line and In Our Time # And Terrific Scientific | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
and Ten Pieces and All In The Mind | :14:47. | :14:49. |