23/04/2017 Sunday Politics South


23/04/2017

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It's Sunday afternoon - this is the Sunday Politics.

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Jeremy Corbyn wants to give everyone in Britain four

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extra bank holidays - but is the Labour leader up

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to being Prime Minister if he wins the election in just

:00:46.:00:48.

Theresa May says she wants a stronger hand to deliver Brexit -

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how will the Conservatives go about getting the bigger

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I'll be asking Party Chairman, Patrick McLoughlin.

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And I've been in Paris where voters are going to the polls in first

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round of the French Presidential election - what could be the impact

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In the South... unpredictable of contests?

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What are the issues that will sway your vote?

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Will it be housing, the NHS, transport -

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Or feel they may not like it but the Tories

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And with me has always ready for the marathon task of covering a snap

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general election, even working on bank holidays, the best and

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brightest political panel in the business. David Wooding, Polly

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Toynbee and Toby Young. So Labour's big announcement this

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morning was a crowd pleaser. Four more rainy bank

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holidays to enjoy - one for each of the patron saints

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of England, Scotland, But Mr Corbyn probably won't be

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getting the time off work if he wins And on The Andrew Marr Show this

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morning he was asked what he would do as Prime Minister

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if the security services asked him to authorise a drone strike

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on the leader of Islamic State. What I'd tell them is,

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give me the information you've got, tell me how accurate that is,

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tell me what you I'm asking you about decisions you

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would take as Prime Minister. Can I take you back

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to the whole point? Is the objective

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to start more strikes that may kill many innocent

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people, as has happened? Do you think killing

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the leader of Isis would be I think the leader of Isis not

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being around would be helpful, and I'm no supporter or defender

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in any way of Isis. But I would also argue that

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the bombing campaign has killed a of whom were virtually prisoners of

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Isis. So you've got to think

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about these things. Mr Corbyn earlier. David, is his

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reply refreshing damaging? It is damaging. He has clearly been

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freaked to the fire already in the first week, there will be lots of

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questions on his suitability as a leader and the damage it could cause

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to our national security over the weeks ahead and Andrew Marr has cut

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straight to the chase here. The other thing, of course, is the

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letters of last resort, one of the first duties of a Prime Minister

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when he walks into No 10 is to sign these letters on his own, on or --

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or on her own in a room, a very lonely moment, to decide whether he

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should press the nuclear button and that goes in the Vanguard submarines

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and is opened in the event of a strike and he has dodged a question

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so many times. One must wonder what he would do that. He has to make

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these decisions as Prime Minister. On the Isis point, refreshing or

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damaging? It sure is his base, the people who support him, that's the

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sort of thing they support info and maybe his tactic is that's all he's

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going to get, that is what the polls seem to suggest, in which case they

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will be pleased, and say yes, the man is a man for these who doesn't

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press buttons and shoot people down. But if you want to win you have to

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deal with your own weaknesses and reach out to other people. I think

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most people would say that's not somebody who could defend the

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country. I wonder if he was being totally honest in saying he would

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consider it he would ask for more information. He has previously been

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on the record as being against drone strikes in principle, he's

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campaigned against them, he wants to abolish drones. I think Andrew Marr

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let him off saying it was a drone strike rather than a Navy SEAL or

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SAS operation and he had the fact that they could be collateral

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damage. We that's not his position because he condemned the

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assassination of Osama Bin Laden even though there was no collateral

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damage. David is right on the Trident point, he fetched the

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question. We heard Niall Griffiths on this very show saying Trident,

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the renewal of Trident, would be in the next Labour Party manifesto. It

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turns out now we don't know and when he was asked he said that remains to

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be seen, his re-opened a can of worms. What he has said about

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Trident which was extraordinary was, we will rebuild the submarines but

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not have any nukes on them which is expensive and useless. And of course

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the Labour Party were forced soon after that interview to put out a

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statement saying it is Labour Party policy to renew Trident. So where

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are we? Do we know what the party's policy is? It is to renew Trident

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but he has started this review which involves looking at it all again. We

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know he is a unilateralist to start with but whether he can force this

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through is dubious. Does it matter, though, if the party policy is in

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favour of Trident, if the leader is not? The potential Prime Minister is

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not? They split three ways when they went to vote on it in the Commons.

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The party agreed they were pro-Trident and when it came to the

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vote they split three ways. I think it's difficult for them, it's always

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been a really difficult issue for Labour. The question is whether you

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want to seal off your negatives, whether you really want to try and

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reach out to people. There are an awful lot of people who will like

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what he said, there are an awful lot of people that think we have been

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involved in terrible wars, we have wasted a lot of money and blood and

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let's just get back from the whole thing, let's retreat from the world

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and not try punching above our weight. There is something to be

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said for that and it is a reasonable argument. He's been true to himself

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on this. I think he is and Polly is right, lots of people will agree

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with him, not enough to win a general election, the latest ComRes

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poll shows Tories on 50% and Labour on 25 and as my colleague James

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Forsyth in the Spectator said if this was a boxing match it would

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have been stopped by now by the revelry. We are not stopping, we are

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going on. So the political parties have had

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to move into election mode Stand by for battle buses,

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mail shots and your social media timeline being bombarded

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by political propoganda. But none of this comes cheap -

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Adam's been doing his sums. Democracy is priceless but those

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planes, trains and automobiles used in the last election cost money

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and we know exactly how much, thanks to the Electoral

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Commission database. The Conservatives flew David Cameron

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to every part of the UK in one day on a private plane costing ?29,000,

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in-flight meals extra. They shelled out ?1.2 million

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for adverts on Facebook. The most expensive item was their

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election guru Lynton Crosby. They bought ?2.4 million worth

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of advice and research from his firm Labour's biggest expenditure

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was on good old-fashioned leaflets, costing ?7.4 million

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to print and deliver. Hope they didn't go straight

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into the recycling. Cheap for all the

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enjoyment it gave us. To turn a normal minibus

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into Harriet Harman's pink bus Nick Clegg toured the country doing

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all manner of stunts transported although the party got a grand's

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discount when it broke down. Ukip's then leader Nigel Farage

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was accompanied by bodyguards Nicola Sturgeon's chopper

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cost the SNP ?35,450. Plaid Cymru spent just over

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?1,000 on media training And the Greens spent ?6,912

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promoting their tweets. It adds up to a grand total

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for all the parties of ?37,560,039. Jabbing at my calculator that works

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out at less than ?1 per voter. Adam Fleming there -

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and joining me now is the man responsible for the Conservative

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election campaigns - for the locals next month

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and the general election in June - Welcome to the programme. The Crown

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Prosecution Service is reviewing evidence from 14 police forces that

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your party breached election spending rules on multiple occasions

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in the last election. What are you going to do differently this time?

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Well, the battle buses are part of the National campaign spend. You saw

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them just on the shot that you did, all three parties had those battle

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buses so that's why we believe they were part of the national spend and

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it was declared that way. At least 30 people in your party, MPs and

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agents, being investigated because they may not have been right to

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include it in the national spend. Are you saying you are going to do

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nothing differently this time? You asked me about last time and the way

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the position is... Was. I asked you about this time. We will take a

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careful count and make sure that everything that we do is within the

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law. But as I say, the last election, all three parties had

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battle buses. It is your party that above all has been investigated by

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14 police forces. You must surely be taking stock of that and working out

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how to do some things differently. You are being investigated because

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you put stuff on the National Ledger which should have been on the local

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constituency ledger. Are you looking at that again? All of the parties

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had battle buses and they all put them on their national spend. I

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don't think any of the parties put them on the local spend. The other

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battle buses were not full of their party activists. Your party stuffed

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these battle buses with activists and took them to constituencies.

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That's the difference. And I ask again, what is different this time?

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Are you going to run the risk of being investigated yet again? We

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believe that we fully compliant with the electoral law as it was. What

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will happen if one of these, or two or three or four or five of these 30

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people, Tory MPs, or agents running campaigns are charged during the

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campaign? As I say I believe we properly declared our election

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expenses. What happens if they are charged? You asking me a

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hypothetical question, the importance of this election is about

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who is in Downing Street in seven weeks' time. Let me clarify this,

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you maintain that in 2015 you did nothing wrong with how you allocated

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the cost and the activities of the battle buses and you would do

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exactly the same this time round? What we did at the last election we

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believe fully complied with the law. So the battle buses this time,

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stocked full of activists, will still be charged to the national

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campaign even when they go to local constituencies? Will they? We will

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be looking at the way we do it, there is new guidance from the

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Electoral Commission out and we will look at that guidance. It is not the

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guidance, it is the lawful stop the Electoral Commission said that, if

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you look at the report they did on us, they said there was one area

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where we had over claimed, over declared, and another area we had

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and declared. We haven't worked out what to do

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yet, have you? We will get on with the campaign and

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start the campaign and I'm looking forward to the campaign.

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I'm trying to work out of the campaign is going to be legal or not

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because last time it seems it could have been illegal.

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I am sure the campaign will be legal.

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You started the campaign warning about the prospect of, the coalition

:12:49.:12:53.

of chaos. Mr Corbyn has ruled out a post-election coalition with the SNP

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and so have the Lib Dems so who is going to be in this coalition?

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Vince Cable said he was looking towards a possible coalition trying

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to stop a Conservative government. Is not the leader of the Lib Dems.

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He's an important voice in the Lib Dems. Who will be in it? Let's see

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because of the Conservative Party is not re-elected with a strong

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majority, what will happen? There will be a coalition stopping us

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doing the things we need to do. Who will be in it? It will be a

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coalition of the Labour Party, the SNP and the Liberal party. They have

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ruled it out. I think they would not rule it out if that was the

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situation. Like Theresa May not ruling out an election and then

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changing her mind? The things the Prime Minister said were very clear,

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once she had served Article 50 there was an opportunity, as we know

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today, there is going to be the start of a new government formed in

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France and in September we have the German elections. So it was quite

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right that we didn't get ourselves boxed into a timetable. That is why

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the Prime Minister took the view that they should be a general

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election to give her full strength of an electoral mandate when it

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comes to those negotiations. What about Mr Corbyn's plan for four new

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bank holidays, good idea? I'm not... If we get Corbyn in No 10 Downing St

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we will have a permanent bank holiday of the United Kingdom. We

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will have fewer bank holidays of most other major nations, most about

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major wealthy nations. What about at least one more? Well, look, he's

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talked about four bank holidays. Today would be a bank holiday and

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next Monday would be a bank holiday and the other week was a bank

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holiday too. I don't think it's very well thought out. It sounded more to

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me something like you get in school mock elections rather than proper

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elections. Your party is the self-styled party of the workers and

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you have no plans to give the workers even one extra bank holiday?

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What we want to do is ensure Britain is a strong economy and building on

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the jobs that we have created since 2010. We were told that by reducing

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public expenditure unemployment in this country would go up,

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unemployment has gone down and the number of jobs have gone up

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substantially. But no more bank holidays? Well, we will make our

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manifesto in due course but I don't think four bank holidays held in

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April, March and November are very attractive to people. When Ed

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Miliband as leader of the Labour Party suggested the government

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should control energy prices by capping them, the Conservatives

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described that as almost Communist and central planning. Do still take

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that view? You'll see what we have to say on energy prices. I didn't

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you about that, I asked you if you take the view... The Prime Minister

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made a speech at the Conservative Spring conference in which she

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outlined her dissatisfaction about people who are kept locked on a

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standard tariff and those are the issues we will address in the next

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few weeks when the manifesto was published.

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Would that be an act of communism? You will need to see what we say

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when we set out the policies. It could be. You could put a Communist

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act into your manifesto? I don't think you'll find a Communist

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manifesto in a Conservative manifesto which will be launched...

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You are planning to control prices? We will address what we think is

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unfairness in the energy market. Mr Jeremy Corbyn was reluctant this

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morning to sanction a drone strike. You heard us talking about it

:16:35.:16:40.

earlier against the leader of Islamic State if our intelligence

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services identified him. What would it achieve? When the Prime Minister

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gets certain advice in the national interests, she has to act been that.

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We've seen with Theresa May in her time as Home Secretary and Prime

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Minister, she's not afraid to take those very difficult decisions. What

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we say this morning from Jeremy Corbyn was a his tans, a reluctance.

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I don't think that serves the country well. What would it achieve

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if we take out the head of Islamic State he's replaced by somebody

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else. It brings their organisation into difficulties. It undermines

:17:16.:17:21.

their organisation. It shows we'll take every measure to undo an

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organisation which has organised terrorism in different parts of

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Europe, the UK. I think it is absolutely right the Prime Minister

:17:29.:17:31.

is prepared to take those kind of measures. Jeremy Corbyn said he

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wasn't prepared to take that. Because he wasn't sure what it would

:17:37.:17:41.

achieve. The Obama administration launched hundreds of drone strikes

:17:42.:17:46.

in various war zones and we in the west are still under attack on a

:17:47.:17:52.

regular basis. Mr Corbyn's basis was what would it achieve? It would

:17:53.:17:58.

achieve a safer position for the UK overall. The war on terrorists. But

:17:59.:18:02.

the Westminster attack, Paris has just been attacked again? There's

:18:03.:18:07.

been attacks which have been stopped by the intelligence services. We

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must do all we can to support them. The question was about drone

:18:12.:18:15.

strikes. Whether it is drone strikes or other action, we have to be

:18:16.:18:20.

prepared to act. Let's move on to Brexit. It is the major reason the

:18:21.:18:24.

Prime Minister's called the election? Not the only within but

:18:25.:18:28.

the main reason? It is one of the reasons. Now we start the two-year

:18:29.:18:32.

negotiations and then a year afterwards. Also the way in which

:18:33.:18:37.

certain people said they would try to use in the House of Lords or

:18:38.:18:40.

House of Commons to prevent us making progress. I think you'll put

:18:41.:18:48.

in your manifesto, it is the Government's policy, the Brexit

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negotiating position will be no more freedom of movement. Leave the

:18:54.:19:00.

single market and no longer under the jurisdiction Europe. You expect

:19:01.:19:03.

every Tory MP to fight on that manifesto. What will you do with Ken

:19:04.:19:09.

Clarke and Anna? They will have fought on their manifesto. They will

:19:10.:19:14.

understand the Prime Minister has the authority of the ballot box

:19:15.:19:17.

behind them. Will they fight the election on these positions? I'm

:19:18.:19:22.

sure they'll fight the election supporting the election of a

:19:23.:19:27.

Conservative Government and it's manifesto will quite clearly set

:19:28.:19:30.

out... You know they're against these positions. Ken Clarke has a

:19:31.:19:35.

prod tradition of expressing a certain view. Overall, the party's

:19:36.:19:39.

manifesto, it is not just individuals like Ken Clarke, it is

:19:40.:19:43.

what happens as far as the House of Lords are concerned, people said

:19:44.:19:47.

they'd use the House of Lords to prevent certain measures. You're the

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party chairman, will it be possible for people like Ken Clarke to fight

:19:53.:19:57.

this election under the Conservative ticket without sub describing to all

:19:58.:20:02.

-- subscribing to all of these Brexit conditions? Ken Clarke will

:20:03.:20:08.

fight as Conservative candidates. That wasn't my question. I know

:20:09.:20:12.

that. Will they be allowed to fight it on their own ticket and not

:20:13.:20:16.

subscribe to what is in your manifesto? The manifesto will be

:20:17.:20:20.

what the Conservative Party fights the General Election on. There will

:20:21.:20:24.

always be cases where people have had different views on different

:20:25.:20:30.

parts of the manifesto. That will be the guiding principles for the

:20:31.:20:36.

party. Philip Hammond says your election promises in 2015, in your

:20:37.:20:41.

manifesto not to raise taxes tied his hands when it came to managing

:20:42.:20:45.

the economy. Do you agree with him? No. The simple fact is we have to do

:20:46.:20:50.

the best things for the economy. We'll set out in our manifesto in a

:20:51.:20:54.

few weeks' time, what the policies will be for the next Parliament. Can

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I clarify, you don't agree with your Chancellor? What Philip was saying

:21:00.:21:05.

was some of the areas we wants to address as Chancellor, what the

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party will do, it will set out all the issues we're fighting on. It

:21:11.:21:13.

will set out clearly the choice we have in this country. That's the

:21:14.:21:17.

important thing. Let me put the question to you again. Philip

:21:18.:21:22.

Hammond said this week your election promise in 2015 not to raise taxes

:21:23.:21:25.

had tied his hands when it came to managing the economy. I ask you, do

:21:26.:21:31.

you agree with him? You said no. Philip expressed his view as to what

:21:32.:21:36.

he would like. What I'm saying is in a few weeks' time we'll set the

:21:37.:21:41.

manifesto which will set the policies, agreed with the the

:21:42.:21:45.

Cabinet. He's Chancellor. Doesn't he determine what the economic part of

:21:46.:21:49.

the manifesto is? We'll talk about that in due course. Will you have a

:21:50.:21:54.

lock on the taxes that you locked in 2015 on income tax, VAT, national

:21:55.:21:59.

insurance? That will be decided. You'll see that when we publish the

:22:00.:22:06.

manifesto in a few weeks' time. Will you rule out the possibility taxes

:22:07.:22:10.

may have to rise under a future Conservative Party? Conservative

:22:11.:22:15.

Government. We've taken four million people out of tax. Now, on average,

:22:16.:22:21.

people are paying ?1200 less tax than they were on the same salaries

:22:22.:22:27.

in 2010. I'm very provide of that. I can assure you, the Conservative

:22:28.:22:29.

Party will want to see taxes reduced. It is the Labour Party

:22:30.:22:33.

which will put up taxes. We have the evidence where this he did so.

:22:34.:22:39.

Council tax went up by over 100%. You haven't reduced the tax burden

:22:40.:22:45.

as a percentage of the GDP is now going to reach its highest level

:22:46.:22:51.

since the mid-180s which was when Conservatives were in power. The tax

:22:52.:22:56.

burden in this country under your Government is rising? We've more

:22:57.:22:59.

people paying taxes which is something, because we've a growing

:23:00.:23:02.

economy and more people... What about the tax band? You said you

:23:03.:23:07.

reduced the tax burden on your own Government's figures is rising? We

:23:08.:23:13.

have reduced the tax burden. The threshold at which people start

:23:14.:23:17.

paying. These are tax rates not the tax burden. It is rising. The tax

:23:18.:23:23.

rates have been reduced. You said tax burden. Perhaps I misspoke. Tax

:23:24.:23:28.

rates have been reduced. We'll leave it there. No doubt we'll speak again

:23:29.:23:36.

between now and June Is France now about to make it

:23:37.:23:38.

a hat-trick of shocks The prospect terrifies

:23:39.:23:42.

the governing elite in Paris. But they're no less scared

:23:43.:23:45.

in Brussels and Berlin, given what it could mean

:23:46.:23:47.

for the whole EU project, never mind the huge potential impact

:23:48.:23:50.

on our own Brexit negotiations. 11 candidates are contesting

:23:51.:24:09.

the first round of the presidential Only the top two will go forward

:24:10.:24:12.

to the run-off on May 7th. For the first time since General De

:24:13.:24:18.

Gaulle created the fifth Republic in 1958, it's perfectly possible that

:24:19.:24:23.

no candidate from the ruling parties of the centre-left or the

:24:24.:24:27.

centre-right will even make it The election has been dominated by

:24:28.:24:30.

the hard right in the shape of the who's never been elected

:24:31.:24:37.

to anything and only started his own party

:24:38.:24:44.

a few months ago. And the far left in the form

:24:45.:24:46.

of Jean-Luc Melenchon, a former Trotskyite who has surged

:24:47.:24:49.

in the final weeks of the campaign. The only candidate left from the

:24:50.:24:53.

traditional governing parties is the centre-right's

:24:54.:24:56.

Francois Fillon and he's been struggling to stay in

:24:57.:24:59.

the race ever since it was revealed that his Welsh wife was being paid

:25:00.:25:02.

at generous public expense for a job I've just come across

:25:03.:25:08.

this magazine cover and it kind of sums up the mood

:25:09.:25:22.

of the French people. It's got the five main candidates

:25:23.:25:25.

for President here but it calls them the biggest liar, the biggest cheat,

:25:26.:25:29.

the biggest traitor, the most paranoid, the biggest demagogue,

:25:30.:25:32.

and it says they are the winners The four leading candidates,

:25:33.:25:34.

Le Pen, Melenchon, Macron and Fillon, or in with a chance

:25:35.:25:45.

of making it to the second round. Only a couple of points separates

:25:46.:25:48.

them in the polls, Frankly, no one has a clue what's

:25:49.:25:50.

going to happen. Of the four, there is a feeling that

:25:51.:25:57.

two of them may be President But the two of them may not find

:25:58.:26:02.

themselves in the second round. Somebody said to me that the man or

:26:03.:26:15.

woman on the Paris Metro has as much a chance of knowing

:26:16.:26:29.

who will win as the greatest experts Because the more expert you are

:26:30.:26:32.

the more you may be wrong. The country has largely

:26:33.:26:39.

stagnated for over a decade. One in ten are unemployed,

:26:40.:26:44.

one in four if you are unlucky Like Britain in the '70s there is

:26:45.:26:47.

the pervasive stench There are three keywords that come

:26:48.:26:51.

to mind. Anger, anger at the elite, and in

:26:52.:26:59.

particular the political elite. And an element of

:27:00.:27:05.

nostalgia for the past. These three words were decisive

:27:06.:27:11.

in the Brexit referendum. They are decisive in

:27:12.:27:15.

the French election. Identity and security has been

:27:16.:27:26.

as important in this election France is a proud nation, it worries

:27:27.:27:30.

about its future in Europe It seems bereft of ideas about how

:27:31.:27:37.

to deal with its largely Muslim migrant population, huge chunks of

:27:38.:27:42.

which are increasingly divorced It is quite simply exhausted by

:27:43.:27:45.

the never-ending Islamist terrorist attacks, the latest only days before

:27:46.:27:56.

voting in the iconic heart of this If Fillon or Macron emerge

:27:57.:27:59.

victorious then there will be continuity of sorts, though Fillon

:28:00.:28:10.

will struggle to implement his Thatcherite agenda and Macron will

:28:11.:28:14.

not be able to count on the support of the French parliament, the

:28:15.:28:18.

National Assembly, for his reforms. But if it's Le Pen or Jean-Luc

:28:19.:28:21.

Melenchon then all bets are off. Both are hardline French

:28:22.:28:27.

nationalists, anti the euro, anti the European Union, anti-fiscal

:28:28.:28:30.

discipline, anti the market, Either in the Elysee Palace

:28:31.:28:33.

would represent an existential Brexit would simply become

:28:34.:28:42.

a sideshow, the negotiations could just peter out as Brussels

:28:43.:28:51.

and Berlin had bigger fish to fry. We're joined now from

:28:52.:28:56.

Paris by the journalist 8th Welcome to the programme.

:28:57.:29:07.

Overshadowing the voting today was yet another appalling terrorist

:29:08.:29:11.

attack in Paris on Thursday night. Do we have any indications of how

:29:12.:29:18.

that's playing into the election? That initially people thought this

:29:19.:29:22.

has been almost foiled in that the police were there as a ramp up. One

:29:23.:29:27.

policeman was killed. But the terrorist did not spray the crowd

:29:28.:29:31.

with bullets. It was seen as not having much of an effect on the

:29:32.:29:37.

election. This has changed. We now know the policeman who was killed, a

:29:38.:29:43.

young man about to the promoted, he was at the Bataclan the night of the

:29:44.:29:48.

terror attack. He was a fighter for LGBT rights. The fact he was

:29:49.:29:55.

promoted, happy within his job, he has this fresh face. Sudden, he's

:29:56.:30:02.

one of us. It took perhaps 48 hours for the French to process this. But

:30:03.:30:07.

now they're angry and this may actually change the game, at least

:30:08.:30:13.

at the margins. To whose advantage? I would say the two who might

:30:14.:30:20.

benefit from this are Marine Le Pen, she's been absolutely

:30:21.:30:24.

anti-immigration, anti-anything. And made no bones about it as she

:30:25.:30:29.

immediately made rather strange announcement in which she'd said if

:30:30.:30:32.

she'd been president none of the terror attacks which happened in

:30:33.:30:36.

France would have happened. Francois Fillon has written a book two years

:30:37.:30:44.

ago called Combating Islamic Terrorism he's has an organised plan

:30:45.:30:48.

in his manifesto. Unlike Emmanuel Macron who stumbled when he was

:30:49.:30:52.

asked the evening this happened what he thought, he said, I can't dream

:30:53.:30:57.

up an anti-terror programme overnight. The question, of course,

:30:58.:31:00.

that arrows was this is not the sort of thing that's just happened

:31:01.:31:04.

overnight. It's been unfortunately the fate of France for many years.

:31:05.:31:10.

Let me ask you this finally, what ever the outcome on May 7th in the

:31:11.:31:15.

second round, who ever wins, would it be fair to say French politics

:31:16.:31:21.

will never be the same again? Yes. Absolutely it's a very strange

:31:22.:31:24.

thing. People have no become really excited about this. You cannot go

:31:25.:31:29.

anywhere without people discussing heatedly this election. The anger

:31:30.:31:33.

that was described is very accurate. Very true. There was this feeling as

:31:34.:31:40.

for the Brexit voters and the Trump voters, vast parts of the people

:31:41.:31:44.

were being talked down to by people who despised them. This has to

:31:45.:31:50.

change. If it doesn't change, we cannot predict what the future will

:31:51.:31:56.

be. We'll know the results or at least the ex-the Poll London time

:31:57.:32:01.

tonight at 8.00pm. Thank for joining us from the glorious heart of your

:32:02.:32:02.

city. Now, the Green Party currently has

:32:03.:32:06.

one MP and they'll be contesting many more seats in June

:32:07.:32:09.

as well as hoping to increase their presence on councils in

:32:10.:32:12.

the local elections on 4th May. Launching their campaign

:32:13.:32:15.

on Thursday, co-leader Caroline Lucas made

:32:16.:32:16.

a pitch to younger voters. When it comes to young

:32:17.:32:18.

people they've been But one crucial way they've been

:32:19.:32:20.

betrayed is by what this generation and this government and the previous

:32:21.:32:25.

ones have been doing when it comes We know we had the hottest year

:32:26.:32:28.

on record last year, you know, you almost think what else does

:32:29.:32:33.

the environment need to be doing All the signs are there

:32:34.:32:36.

and it is young people who are going to be bearing

:32:37.:32:39.

the brunt of a wrecked environment and that's why it's so important

:32:40.:32:42.

that when we come to making that pitch to, yes, the country at large

:32:43.:32:46.

but to young people in particular, I think climate change,

:32:47.:32:49.

the environment, looking after our precious resources,

:32:50.:32:50.

has to be up there. And I'm joined now by the Green

:32:51.:32:55.

MEP, Molly Scott Cato. Welcome back to the programme.

:32:56.:33:10.

Promised to scrap university tuition fees, increase NHS funding, rollback

:33:11.:33:13.

cuts to local councils spending, how much would that cost and how would

:33:14.:33:17.

you pay for it? Like the other parties we haven't got a costed

:33:18.:33:20.

manifesto yet, it's only a few days since the election was announced so

:33:21.:33:23.

I will come back and explain the figures. You don't know? Like every

:33:24.:33:27.

party we have not produced accosted manifesto yet, we produced one last

:33:28.:33:33.

time but public spending figures have changed so we're not in a

:33:34.:33:36.

position to do that but we will be in a week or so. What taxes would

:33:37.:33:41.

you like to consider raising? We would consider having higher taxes

:33:42.:33:45.

for the better off in society. I think we need to increase the amount

:33:46.:33:50.

of tax wealthier people pay. How do you define better off? I'm not

:33:51.:33:53.

entirely clear what the precise number would be but I think 100,000

:33:54.:33:59.

people would pay a bit more, 150,000 quite considerably more but the real

:34:00.:34:03.

focus needs to be on companies avoiding paying taxes. I work on

:34:04.:34:06.

that a lot in my role in the European Parliament, we see an

:34:07.:34:09.

enormous amount of tax avoidance by companies moving profits from

:34:10.:34:13.

country to country and we need European corporation to make that

:34:14.:34:16.

successful. It has not made much difference yet. We have made lots of

:34:17.:34:22.

changes. Google turned over $1 billion and only paid 25 million in

:34:23.:34:26.

taxes last year. There was a significant fine introduced by the

:34:27.:34:30.

competition commission on Apple and in the case of Google we must change

:34:31.:34:34.

the laws so that people cannot move profits from country to country.

:34:35.:34:40.

Everybody wants to do it. But you couldn't face a big spending

:34:41.:34:43.

programme on the ability to do that. You'd have to increase other taxes.

:34:44.:34:47.

If you look at the cost of free student tuition, tuition fees and

:34:48.:34:50.

also maintenance grants to students, that would come in at about 10

:34:51.:34:54.

billion a year. One way of paying for that would be to remove the

:34:55.:34:57.

upper threshold on National Insurance, bringing in 20 billion a

:34:58.:35:01.

year, that's the order of magnitude we are talking about. It is not

:35:02.:35:05.

vast, and some of the proposals we have... That would be an increase on

:35:06.:35:09.

the better of tax? National Insurance on people earning...

:35:10.:35:16.

People earning above 42,000. You would have another 10% tax above

:35:17.:35:20.

42,000? I can't remember exactly how much the National Insurance rate

:35:21.:35:26.

changes by. But in government figures it would be 28 billion

:35:27.:35:30.

raised. I think it is up to 45, a bit more you pay a marginal rate of

:35:31.:35:34.

40%, you would have them pay a marginal rate of over 50%? We would

:35:35.:35:38.

put the National Insurance rate on higher incomes the same as it is on

:35:39.:35:43.

lower incomes. If you are a school head of an English department on 50,

:35:44.:35:46.

60,000 a year you would face a marginal rate under U of over 50%?

:35:47.:35:52.

It is not useful to do this as a mental maths exercise but if you

:35:53.:35:57.

look at other proposals would could have a landlord licensing system,

:35:58.:36:01.

longer term leases on properties, so young people particularly, but also

:36:02.:36:04.

older people who rent, could have more security which needn't cost

:36:05.:36:07.

anything. We could insist on landlords paying for that. The

:36:08.:36:12.

mental arithmetic seems clear but we will come back to that. How is the

:36:13.:36:16.

Progressive Alliance coming? It is going well, I have heard of a lot of

:36:17.:36:20.

interest at local level. Winterset this in contest, context, lots of

:36:21.:36:25.

progressives are concerned about the crisis in public services, prisons,

:36:26.:36:30.

social care system, and also about the Tories' hard extreme Brexit they

:36:31.:36:33.

are threatening. You want the left to come together? Theresa May has

:36:34.:36:38.

given us opportunity, she has taken a risk because she has problems with

:36:39.:36:41.

backbenchers, she doesn't think she can get through Brexit with a small

:36:42.:36:45.

majority so there is an opportunity and we are saying progressives must

:36:46.:36:48.

come together to corporate, Conservatives are effective at using

:36:49.:36:51.

the first-past-the-post system and we have to become effective as well.

:36:52.:36:56.

Do you accept this Progressive Alliance cannot become the

:36:57.:36:59.

government and Mr Corbyn is the Prime Minister? How could it happen

:37:00.:37:03.

otherwise? I think that is a secondary question. For me the

:37:04.:37:07.

primary question is who do people choose to vote for? Aluminium

:37:08.:37:10.

government afterwards comes after the election. In most countries that

:37:11.:37:14.

is the case. I understand that but we have the system we have and you

:37:15.:37:17.

accept this Progressive Alliance cannot be in power and thus mystical

:37:18.:37:21.

Burmese Prime Minister? Personally I think Mr Corbyn is less of a threat

:37:22.:37:24.

to the country than Theresa May, she has shown herself to be an

:37:25.:37:27.

authoritarian leader and she has said she doesn't want to have

:37:28.:37:34.

dissidents, which I would say is reasonable opposition, and what we

:37:35.:37:36.

are suggesting at the moment is there is a way of avoiding that very

:37:37.:37:38.

hard Brexit and damage to public services. You'd be happy to pay the

:37:39.:37:41.

price of having Mr Corbyn as Prime Minister? I do not see that as a

:37:42.:37:46.

price. People have the choice of Jeremy Corbyn or Theresa May as

:37:47.:37:50.

Prime Minister, that's the system that works. You would prefer Mr

:37:51.:37:54.

Corbyn? I would but votes are translated into seats and the

:37:55.:37:57.

Progressive Alliance is a step towards that.

:37:58.:37:59.

It's just gone 3:50pm, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:38:00.:38:01.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, Wales

:38:02.:38:03.

and Northern Ireland who leave us now.

:38:04.:38:05.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.

:38:06.:38:15.

Welcome to Sunday Politics South - my name's Peter Henley.

:38:16.:38:17.

And you'll not be surprised to hear that we're in election mode this

:38:18.:38:20.

week, and I'm joined by three politicians who'll all be asking

:38:21.:38:23.

for your vote in just under seven weeks time.

:38:24.:38:25.

Layla Moran will be standing for the Liberal Democrats

:38:26.:38:27.

in Oxford West and Abingdon, as she did in 2015.

:38:28.:38:30.

Alan Whitehead will be hoping to once again be the Labour MP

:38:31.:38:32.

for Southampton Test, and Flick Drummond is standing

:38:33.:38:34.

for the Conservatives in Portsmouth South,

:38:35.:38:37.

which she first won for them two years ago.

:38:38.:38:39.

We'll be hearing a lot over the next couple of months

:38:40.:38:44.

about strong leadership, strength of opinion,

:38:45.:38:46.

As it happens there were some experts in Southampton this week...

:38:47.:38:58.

The competition to find the world's strongest man.

:38:59.:39:09.

In politics, of course, it's not just about strength,

:39:10.:39:14.

Do you think strength is important in a politician?

:39:15.:39:21.

Be in the game with your head, make sure you're saying

:39:22.:39:29.

the right things, make sure you have the right back-up.

:39:30.:39:32.

It's about providing the strong and stable

:39:33.:39:34.

It's about strengthening our hand in the negotiations that lie ahead.

:39:35.:39:40.

It's all about strength, it's all about caring as well.

:39:41.:39:43.

You know, the country is so divided between the rich and the poor,

:39:44.:39:47.

You think Jeremy Corbyn is maybe not the stronger but the better person?

:39:48.:39:52.

I know which side I am on, you know which side you're on.

:39:53.:40:00.

What did you think of Theresa May calling an election like this?

:40:01.:40:03.

I think that makes her quite a powerful person, actually,

:40:04.:40:07.

However you voted last June, to vote to have a decent,

:40:08.:40:14.

You have moral strength and you've got to have courage

:40:15.:40:17.

When you make a decision, if it's right, and maybe not everyone

:40:18.:40:26.

will agree with that, but as long as you stick with that.

:40:27.:40:31.

Isn't it extraordinary that the Prime Minister

:40:32.:40:33.

of our country can't even urge his party to support his own position!

:40:34.:40:40.

Whoever would make the toughest Prime Minister, the strength

:40:41.:40:51.

of parties in the south of England is clear.

:40:52.:40:54.

The 2015 election saw conservatives clear out

:40:55.:41:00.

Liberal Democrats in Eastleigh, Portsmouth and Mid Dorset.

:41:01.:41:04.

They also took the Labour seat of Southampton Itchen.

:41:05.:41:08.

And this time two of the South's long established Labour MPs have

:41:09.:41:10.

Fiona McTaggart in Slough and Andrew Smith in Oxford.

:41:11.:41:15.

Both will now have candidates selected by the National

:41:16.:41:17.

Yes, it would have been nicer if local members could be involved.

:41:18.:41:23.

We have received assurances, though, that in the selection process,

:41:24.:41:28.

very close attentions will of course be paid to the calibre and relevant

:41:29.:41:31.

Very close attention will be given to local links.

:41:32.:41:37.

Speaker John Bercow, who previously said he would serve just two terms,

:41:38.:41:41.

Traditionally the Speaker is unopposed, though some voters

:41:42.:41:47.

in Buckingham said they would rather have a contest.

:41:48.:41:49.

It's annoying not having a vote that counts.

:41:50.:41:52.

You can't vote for the other major parties which is the entire point

:41:53.:41:56.

It can be a bit annoying if you have different views to the Speaker,

:41:57.:42:00.

but that's just the way it goes, I suppose.

:42:01.:42:03.

Try to calm down and behave like an adult.

:42:04.:42:06.

Politics can be a bruising business, as well as a test of strength.

:42:07.:42:10.

On the tire flip today, Big Z, four times world champion.

:42:11.:42:13.

Where they know a strong man - or woman - when they see one.

:42:14.:42:21.

Wighton the strong woman. Plainly Theresa May is the strongest leader.

:42:22.:42:43.

It depends what you mean by strength. It's important that you

:42:44.:42:48.

were strong in your convictions, that you were strong in your

:42:49.:42:49.

leadership of Hugh you were leading. leadership of Hugh you were leading.

:42:50.:42:54.

But if also a question of being strong in understanding the other

:42:55.:42:58.

side and making sure that everybody is united together. In going forward

:42:59.:43:02.

and to go about what's you claim is and to go about what's you claim is

:43:03.:43:12.

a test of strength. Whilst on the other hand suggesting that there

:43:13.:43:15.

should be no opposition, but you should just rush head without

:43:16.:43:20.

thinking properly all the consequences of it. That is

:43:21.:43:22.

strength. That is possible strength. That is possible

:43:23.:43:25.

foolhardiness. Possibly even reckless. What do you think? She

:43:26.:43:32.

didn't need to call this election. Does that make her strength or could

:43:33.:43:37.

backfire? I think she has done a very good thing. If you look at what

:43:38.:43:41.

would have been the next General Election, in 2020, with negotiations

:43:42.:43:51.

and 2019, it's really important that we guess, she gets it over and done

:43:52.:43:55.

with by the time of the next General Election, otherwise it would all be

:43:56.:43:59.

blurred into what we put into our next manifesto. She is very clever

:44:00.:44:07.

to do it now and not later. Clever maybe, but what you are suggesting

:44:08.:44:10.

there is the reason she has gone for election is not the one she was

:44:11.:44:13.

giving us. She was saying she was doing this because the country is

:44:14.:44:17.

coming together on Brexit but there is so much parliamentary opposition.

:44:18.:44:24.

I think that is part of it as well. There is a lot of discussion in

:44:25.:44:29.

Parliament. It is holding it back, a lot of the negotiations back from

:44:30.:44:33.

all sides. What she wants to do is really have a strong mandate, which

:44:34.:44:36.

I hope she will do, to take it forward and be able to be that

:44:37.:44:39.

strong leader to go to Europe make sure we get the right Brexit

:44:40.:44:45.

negotiations. That's what people want. Take what forward, that's the

:44:46.:44:49.

question. She is advocating removing us from the single market, which in

:44:50.:44:53.

Oxford and Abingdon will be disastrous for the economy. What

:44:54.:44:58.

does she want us to unite behind? Her definition of united is to shut

:44:59.:45:03.

everyone else up. Public opinion surely is strong on this, as it

:45:04.:45:06.

wants to be strong and representing about. What's your calling for in

:45:07.:45:11.

the Lib Dems, the second referendum, is not what the public want. That's

:45:12.:45:16.

not true. We are hearing that people want to have more say. We have said

:45:17.:45:20.

that the little system in this country is broken. We need

:45:21.:45:25.

proportional representation to engage people more. In something as

:45:26.:45:29.

important as coming out of the EU, the people need to have a say on

:45:30.:45:33.

that final deal. I'm not going to sign a blank cheque to Theresa May

:45:34.:45:43.

in the selection. It isn't going to enhance the position particularly in

:45:44.:45:47.

negotiating with the EU. It certainly will. She will have that

:45:48.:45:51.

extra time to be able to prepare for this to make sure exactly right.

:45:52.:46:04.

Instead of having to do it in 2019, it's really important that she can

:46:05.:46:08.

absolutely straight on the bushy Asians. She's not going to

:46:09.:46:10.

concentrating on another General concentrating on another General

:46:11.:46:13.

Election in 2020. She can literally... -- focusing on the

:46:14.:46:22.

general elections. That's what we want to avoid with the second

:46:23.:46:26.

something that the country is something that the country is

:46:27.:46:30.

supposedly united on. When we voted for Brexit, Brexit is being asked

:46:31.:46:36.

down, but the consequence of Brexit are certainly not done. Nor is the

:46:37.:46:42.

country united on exactly what those consequences are going to be. It is

:46:43.:46:48.

really not strong leadership to simply say, well, I'm going to go

:46:49.:46:52.

with perhaps a small group of my own party, the far right of my party,

:46:53.:46:57.

who want to see us undertaking a Brexit where we cut all ties with

:46:58.:47:02.

everybody, we go off into the world with no trade deals, which actually

:47:03.:47:08.

keep us associated with the EU, that we abandon all sorts of arrangements

:47:09.:47:13.

which were... These are all the things you believe! She's not doing

:47:14.:47:19.

that, she has talked about free trade with Europe. Those are the

:47:20.:47:24.

sorts of things we are going to do. I don't understand where this had

:47:25.:47:30.

Brexit comes from. If you listen to her,... That's what you are putting

:47:31.:47:38.

through people's tourists. She needs a strong mandate but that doesn't

:47:39.:47:43.

this camp of people saying she wants this camp of people saying she wants

:47:44.:47:47.

to have more seats in parliament so she can water it down? Know, so she

:47:48.:47:55.

can get the right Brexit. Free trade with Europe, which she has been very

:47:56.:47:58.

clear on, and free trade with other countries as well. She will have to

:47:59.:48:02.

give up some immigration control them. We have talked about

:48:03.:48:07.

immigration control and the status of EU nationals. This is the point

:48:08.:48:13.

is, we have in Scotland are gushy oceans. Article 50 has only just

:48:14.:48:17.

time to put things in place. She time to put things in place. She

:48:18.:48:20.

will now have longer to do that, she won't have the chance of the General

:48:21.:48:28.

Election turning up in 2020. So this is the wrong time to call an

:48:29.:48:31.

election. Those things could have been done anyway if that's what was

:48:32.:48:38.

going to be the scenario. Before Article 50? Is quite untrue that

:48:39.:48:41.

Parliament was somehow obstructing the process of Brexit, but what

:48:42.:48:44.

an issue is what kind of Brexit it an issue is what kind of Brexit it

:48:45.:48:48.

should be and what is best for Britain. That is not served by just

:48:49.:48:53.

saying, I'm going down a certain direction. The Labour Party is not

:48:54.:48:59.

going to make this any clearer. Our candidates going to say precisely

:49:00.:49:04.

what they want to see? Absolutely. Labour has already said that there

:49:05.:49:07.

are six tests for Brexit in the negotiations are complete. Should be

:49:08.:49:14.

a parliament revote, if those tests had mats, Labour will not vote at

:49:15.:49:20.

that point with... Why he -- that's why she called the election, because

:49:21.:49:27.

of this sort of opposition. She won't be ignoring its because she's

:49:28.:49:32.

not the sort of person. But also, we have had endless discussions

:49:33.:49:35.

constantly holding her back, going forward is a lot with the Lib Dems,

:49:36.:49:40.

the SNP and Labour as well. She really needs this a strong mandate

:49:41.:49:43.

to get the negotiations absolutely right in the best interests of the

:49:44.:49:48.

country. Let's move on a different Brexit because it will just be a

:49:49.:49:53.

Brexit election. Are you going to be arguing other things? Reed of

:49:54.:49:57.

course. An election is about the entire country and what kind of

:49:58.:50:00.

country we want to be on what kind of values. We have some very strong

:50:01.:50:07.

local issues that we wants to hold the Conservatives and the local area

:50:08.:50:10.

to account for, which isn't just about Brexit. But Brexit is the main

:50:11.:50:16.

issue, because what is happening as we are totally distracted in terms

:50:17.:50:18.

debates, from the real issues that debates, from the real issues that

:50:19.:50:25.

are facing this country. At a time when the economy isn't doing great

:50:26.:50:28.

and people are beginning to feel the pinch again. She wants to take us

:50:29.:50:33.

down a career pass down a big mountain. We have no idea what other

:50:34.:50:37.

bottom. It's going to be the big issue of the selection. I'm

:50:38.:50:40.

delighted we are having one so we can start you are what are some of

:50:41.:50:44.

the issues. And then we can talk about the NHS, which is completely

:50:45.:50:49.

underfunded. One of the big promises believe campaign, the ?350 billion

:50:50.:50:55.

for the NHS, where is it? You have just brought it back to the EU

:50:56.:50:59.

again! Because it is the main issue. These are connected to some extent

:51:00.:51:05.

inasmuch as the kind of Brexit that we end up with also means what kind

:51:06.:51:11.

of society we have the future. One of the things that really concerns

:51:12.:51:16.

me about this election is that a lot of the issues, like what kind of

:51:17.:51:20.

national health service we have in the future, what about our

:51:21.:51:24.

children's education, was about things like social care, which is

:51:25.:51:28.

eyes, for the future. Do we have a eyes, for the future. Do we have a

:51:29.:51:33.

society which is inclusive on all those matters or do we have a

:51:34.:51:36.

minimal state where those things don't happen? The danger is those

:51:37.:51:42.

fundamental changes to our society may be smuggled in under the

:51:43.:51:48.

Brexit. The election is about lots Brexit. The election is about lots

:51:49.:51:55.

more than Brexit. Jeremy Corbyn is leading your party. Today have

:51:56.:51:58.

already seen the talk about would he authorise a drone strike. What about

:51:59.:52:04.

your policy on nuclear weapons? How can people trust to Jeremy Corbyn

:52:05.:52:09.

over Theresa May on those issues? Journey is a very honest, decent,

:52:10.:52:15.

caring man. I think on this particular occasion, if he was

:52:16.:52:18.

guilty of anything it was stating guilty of anything it was stating

:52:19.:52:21.

exactly the position that was in front of us, which is the

:52:22.:52:23.

manifestos, because the election was manifestos, because the election was

:52:24.:52:26.

called at a Tuesday's notice, have not yet... He was saying that the

:52:27.:52:36.

manifesto is not yet out but what we do know is that that is already

:52:37.:52:40.

Labour Party policy. That will pretty certainly be in the

:52:41.:52:44.

manifesto. What was being stated is what is Labour Party policy right

:52:45.:52:49.

now, it is about renewal of Trident. That is pretty likely to be in a

:52:50.:52:52.

manifesto but the manifesto is not yet published. That is exactly the

:52:53.:52:58.

position we're in. This is important for defence areas. That they get

:52:59.:53:04.

that sort of answer. But also so is schools funding and your government

:53:05.:53:08.

has had the last couple of years and the money is not going into schools.

:53:09.:53:11.

Parents will be picky about that when they vote as well as the

:53:12.:53:15.

leadership of Brexit. And we have more good schools than we ever have

:53:16.:53:21.

before, particularly in Portsmouth. But the rest schools which might

:53:22.:53:25.

under consultation. School reform under consultation. School reform

:53:26.:53:31.

has been asked for by teachers for a very long time. We are looking at

:53:32.:53:37.

the consultation to make sure no school misses out but in Portsmouth

:53:38.:53:42.

are schools in 2010 and failing schools, we now have two outstanding

:53:43.:53:45.

schools, a good school had lots of other... At the moment, the deficit

:53:46.:53:53.

repayment has shifted up to 2022 when George Osborne wanted it paid

:53:54.:53:58.

by last... The economy is starting to go up, it is growing. The CBI

:53:59.:54:03.

forecast Joseph going out, manufacturing going on. Which we --

:54:04.:54:11.

would you mind if we lost the triple lock? I hope it would be in the

:54:12.:54:14.

manifesto. It's very clear that pensioners like it. Of course I'm

:54:15.:54:17.

not someone who will be making those decisions. Is going

:54:18.:54:22.

... I don't know what being a manifesto.

:54:23.:54:27.

Now, believe it or not there was some other

:54:28.:54:29.

non-election-related news this week - here's our regular

:54:30.:54:31.

On parade at Sandhurst, the Prime Minister warned

:54:32.:54:34.

new officers of the volatility of times ahead -

:54:35.:54:39.

In Alton, a careers fair for over '50s.

:54:40.:54:48.

A growing number like gardner Penny Holmes enjoying part-tirement.

:54:49.:54:56.

As assaults on prison staff reached a record high,

:54:57.:55:01.

two Dorset officers spoke about their fears of attack.

:55:02.:55:06.

Before you even start, your head's thinking, how am

:55:07.:55:09.

I going to get through this without being assaulted?

:55:10.:55:11.

They blame overcrowding, staff shortages and a growing

:55:12.:55:13.

Chinese money is behind a plan to build a replica Titanic

:55:14.:55:17.

Though descendants of those who died think it is in bad taste.

:55:18.:55:21.

If he knew this was being replicated, I think he'd be

:55:22.:55:24.

Finally the Badger Trust is warning new houses in Oxfordshire

:55:25.:55:31.

are destroying sets, forcing animals

:55:32.:55:32.

They want planners to do more to protect them.

:55:33.:55:41.

That's the Sunday Politics in the South, thanks

:55:42.:55:52.

Now were going to lose the prison and Courts Bill. We are losing a lot

:55:53.:55:58.

of things that weren't going through. Does that bother you?

:55:59.:56:04.

Hugely. Because it was such a shock to everybody, there wasn't time to

:56:05.:56:08.

plan to make sure that things that were incredibly important like

:56:09.:56:13.

prison reform going to happen. That said, we need to make sure the

:56:14.:56:14.

direction the country is going in is direction the country is going in is

:56:15.:56:18.

have this opportunity to put other have this opportunity to put other

:56:19.:56:22.

points of view forward. The Liberal Democrats want a more restorative,

:56:23.:56:25.

preventative justice system. So we don't have as many people there in

:56:26.:56:27.

the first place. This is our chance the first place. This is our chance

:56:28.:56:31.

to start talking about that. To you think the big law firms who were

:56:32.:56:34.

campaigning against some of the changes won't that campaign? I think

:56:35.:56:39.

it was one of those coincidences but I think it underlines the president

:56:40.:56:44.

at nature of how the selection was thought about and how it was called.

:56:45.:56:50.

parliaments and in full of things to parliaments and in full of things to

:56:51.:56:55.

wash up. I'm very sorry that the prison and Courts Bill is

:56:56.:56:57.

disappearing because I think there disappearing because I think there

:56:58.:57:02.

are a lot of good things in it. And a compensation culture was something

:57:03.:57:06.

I think all sides agreed on. It is just one of those accidents, you

:57:07.:57:12.

might say. Actually, I think underlines probably the

:57:13.:57:14.

responsibility of doing this in the way it was done. It could have been

:57:15.:57:18.

done much better, we could have had a test in front of the country with

:57:19.:57:24.

a reasonable order behind it. Took about seven weeks campaign and it is

:57:25.:57:27.

a short one because of the local elections, but there is time for

:57:28.:57:31.

people to get a little bit, why are we having to go through this again?

:57:32.:57:36.

Already on the doorsteps people were saying that. As we go through and

:57:37.:57:41.

find out, looking at the manifesto, it gives them another opportunity to

:57:42.:57:45.

go out and vote which is one of the reasons I'm so against aggressive

:57:46.:57:48.

alliance, because you want to vote for one party with their manifesto

:57:49.:57:52.

rather than blurring the lines. Is a chance this will develop? In terms

:57:53.:57:57.

of a progressive alliance, I very much doubt there is any kind of time

:57:58.:58:03.

to do that. We will be appealing to voters from the aggressive alliance

:58:04.:58:08.

in the electorate to come together behind one candidate.

:58:09.:58:14.

Whitelaw last six there is a sort of, I'm normally Labour about... In

:58:15.:58:25.

terms of the way the election has been cast, which is vote from me and

:58:26.:58:29.

should be no opposition whatsoever, and that will be somehow united

:58:30.:58:34.

country, the temptation, I would think, to vote tactically and said

:58:35.:58:37.

it should be a proper debate going on here and other should not be just

:58:38.:58:44.

homogenous representation in parliaments and making sure there is

:58:45.:58:47.

the best representation in parliament could be on people of

:58:48.:58:49.

like minds. Obviously we want to like minds. Obviously we want to

:58:50.:58:52.

make sure that Labour wins the actions we have an alternative

:58:53.:58:55.

parts of the country people will be parts of the country people will

:58:56.:58:57.

saying to themselves, Dubai really saying to themselves, Dubai really

:58:58.:59:02.

want to be the first past the post system is simply for that? People

:59:03.:59:11.

says she didn't have a mandate because she wasn't elected by the

:59:12.:59:15.

country. She is now having a General Election will stop everyone on the

:59:16.:59:19.

streets that I have spoken to so far is very behind her. Of course now

:59:20.:59:32.

she will have a mandate. She is actively ignoring 48% of the

:59:33.:59:36.

going about this had Brexit. She is going about this had Brexit. She

:59:37.:59:41.

talking about this coalition of talking about this coalition

:59:42.:59:42.

chaos which is where this chaos which is where this

:59:43.:59:45.

progressive alliance thing has come from. As Lib Dems, we will not be

:59:46.:59:52.

forming a coalition with anyone. There is no coalition of chaos. It

:59:53.:59:55.

cannot happen and it will not happen. I don't know where she is

:59:56.:00:00.

going with this. The coalition was the last election. Is up to the

:00:01.:00:06.

other parties but I think it's very clear that she's going to have a

:00:07.:00:15.

very strong manifesto. We had a coalition a few years ago. That

:00:16.:00:21.

wasn't a coalition of chaos, apparently? A lot of this is just

:00:22.:00:29.

nonsense for the purpose of trying to frame an election. In a way that

:00:30.:00:36.

ducks a lot of the real issues in front of us. That's what I want to

:00:37.:00:43.

get on the floor. I'm going out with my positive message. I'm looking for

:00:44.:00:46.

social reform which is what Theresa May has been talking about

:00:47.:00:49.

breakthrough. I will also make sure that we get a very good deal out of

:00:50.:00:53.

Europe and that's what she wants to do.

:00:54.:00:54.

That's the Sunday Politics in the South, thanks

:00:55.:00:56.

to my guests Layla Moran, Alan Whitehead and Flick Drummond.

:00:57.:00:58.

Don't forget South Today and your local radio station will be

:00:59.:01:01.

keeping you up to date with the election campaign

:01:02.:01:03.

throughout the week and we'll be back next Sunday looking

:01:04.:01:05.

For now, though, it's back to Andrew.

:01:06.:01:09.

on issues like the NHS. Run out of time. Andrew, back to you.

:01:10.:01:18.

Now, Ukip have made their first significant policy announcement

:01:19.:01:24.

of the election campaign today with a call for a ban on wearing

:01:25.:01:30.

But is it a policy that will meet with the approval of the man

:01:31.:01:36.

who bankrolled the party's last general election campaign?

:01:37.:01:38.

Hello, Andrew. Let me see if I can clarify some things, are you a

:01:39.:01:45.

member of Ukip? I a patron of Ukip so I don't stop being a member. So

:01:46.:01:52.

you are still a member? I am, apparently for life. Are you still

:01:53.:01:56.

hoping to bankroll Ukip? Not at the moment. Why is that? The internal

:01:57.:02:02.

problems we have had in Ukip have been aired, and a lot needs to

:02:03.:02:07.

happen in the party in terms of professionalising it and I think it

:02:08.:02:11.

is ill-prepared for this general election. Are you going to run in

:02:12.:02:16.

Clacton? I will be if selected. For Ukip? Yes. Have you been to Clacton?

:02:17.:02:24.

I've been with Nigel Mansell on the campaign. You will run for a

:02:25.:02:27.

constituency you've only been in once? Yes, why does that surprise

:02:28.:02:33.

you? You know nothing about it. I've just recently decided to become the

:02:34.:02:38.

candidate there. Did you know where it is? Of course I do, your piece

:02:39.:02:42.

the other night was completely wrong. I said I knew where it was

:02:43.:02:46.

but I didn't know much about it. Maybe the people of Clacton will

:02:47.:02:53.

regard you as a carpetbagger? Why? Because you have never been there.

:02:54.:02:59.

Most politicians are carpetbaggers and I will be there for the right

:03:00.:03:03.

reasons. I thought it was because of your visceral hatred of Douglas

:03:04.:03:09.

Carswell. He only lasted 24 hours after I announced my candidacy so we

:03:10.:03:12.

will see what happens. The main thing I am going to Clacton on

:03:13.:03:15.

Monday to meet the Ukip councillors, see what the issues are and see if

:03:16.:03:19.

they want me as a candidate. They may not want me. Who do you think

:03:20.:03:25.

you will be up against? The potential Conservative candidate.

:03:26.:03:31.

Who in Ukip? I don't suppose anyone in Ukip will stand against me, I

:03:32.:03:36.

wouldn't have thought. Really? I would have thought. Money talks! Why

:03:37.:03:44.

do you say that? You talked about having a pirate radio station to

:03:45.:03:47.

blast into Clacton so it is not covered by the election rules.

:03:48.:03:49.

You've been talking about financing a sort of right-wing Momentum

:03:50.:03:56.

movement. I just wonder, has politics now just become a

:03:57.:04:00.

Richmond's hobby? From my perspective the reason I'm

:04:01.:04:03.

interested in it is if you have looked at what has happened in the

:04:04.:04:06.

country, it's clear the Conservatives will have a massive

:04:07.:04:11.

majority. -- has politics become a rich man's hobby. Only putting up

:04:12.:04:17.

candidates not against Brexit MPs. Is Ukip over? I don't think so. The

:04:18.:04:24.

electoral maths is interesting because first-past-the-post

:04:25.:04:25.

effectively could help Ukip in this example. Ukip got one MP with 4

:04:26.:04:36.

million votes. What we are seeing is the total collapse of Labour. In

:04:37.:04:40.

that situation there are certain seats up north in Hartlepool and

:04:41.:04:43.

other seats like that, the total collapse of the Labour Party could

:04:44.:04:47.

help Ukip to win a few seats. Is Ukip over? It looks that way, yes.

:04:48.:04:53.

They haven't made much of a dent in Labour's vote in the north, they

:04:54.:04:56.

don't really have a defining issue anymore and all the polls we have

:04:57.:05:00.

seen published since the election was called show Ukip vote is going

:05:01.:05:05.

to the Conservatives. Is Ukip over? It always happens when the

:05:06.:05:09.

Conservative Party goes far to the right, really hard Brexit, there is

:05:10.:05:13.

no space for BMP, Ukip and all of that. Are you associating the BNP

:05:14.:05:20.

with Ukip? Or that, movements to the right of the Conservatives get eaten

:05:21.:05:23.

up one the Conservatives move as far right as Theresa May has done. I

:05:24.:05:28.

think what your enterprise shows is how it's really time to reform

:05:29.:05:33.

funding of political parties. It is disgraceful that very rich people

:05:34.:05:38.

can move in and bankroll the Brexit campaigned to the extent that they

:05:39.:05:42.

did. We need proper state funding of parties. The union is bankrolling

:05:43.:05:48.

Labour. I assume the reform would include trade unions? Indeed. Ukip

:05:49.:05:56.

has lost its talisman in Nigel Farage, it was a one-man party, I

:05:57.:05:59.

have to say, people like Tim. Having voted for Brexit its reason to be

:06:00.:06:05.

has gone. It will still take votes from Labour and the Conservatives

:06:06.:06:08.

but probably only from the don't knows. There are seats in certain

:06:09.:06:12.

places where if enough Tories back Ukip dated when. Hartlepool is an

:06:13.:06:18.

example. Were the Tories will never win. The demise of Ukip has been

:06:19.:06:21.

forecasted many times before but I don't see a Tory candidate winning

:06:22.:06:25.

in a place like Hartlepool. So we could see, and I think we will see,

:06:26.:06:30.

the total collapse of the Labour vote. We shall see. The leader of

:06:31.:06:34.

the party of which you say you are still a patron, Paul Nuttall, said

:06:35.:06:38.

he would ban the Burcea and the niqab in public, what is your view?

:06:39.:06:46.

-- the niqab and the Burcea? I'm not in agreement with that. If it is a

:06:47.:06:51.

security issue at airports or public transport it could be acceptable but

:06:52.:06:55.

I'm not in favour of curtailing people's writes. You have gone

:06:56.:06:58.

further than him, haven't you? You tweeted you wanted to ban Muslim

:06:59.:07:03.

immigration. In my view the problem we have had with the lack of

:07:04.:07:06.

integration in certain communities has come about through mass

:07:07.:07:10.

open-door immigration. If you are a must win you wouldn't be allowed in?

:07:11.:07:14.

What I said in the tweet was I think they should be a ban on

:07:15.:07:19.

immigration... You said Muslim immigration. That's what I believe.

:07:20.:07:25.

If you are a world famous doctor coming to help one of our big

:07:26.:07:28.

teaching hospitals in this country because you are a Muslim you could

:07:29.:07:32.

not get in? We have to start somewhere, there are huge problems

:07:33.:07:35.

in areas where 20% of the population don't speak the language, they

:07:36.:07:40.

haven't integrated. You should read the rest of the tweet, it is control

:07:41.:07:46.

of immigration from a 10-year ban on unskilled immigration. The first

:07:47.:07:50.

thing you said was to ban Muslim immigration, it is in black and

:07:51.:07:53.

white. I have said that, I do not dispute that. I was questioning

:07:54.:07:57.

that. There is my answer, you cannot tell somebody's will adjust freedoms

:07:58.:08:01.

but what you can do is stop adding to the problem. Doesn't that sound a

:08:02.:08:07.

bit like the BNP? It's as like BNP and like Trump. Its, we hate

:08:08.:08:11.

Muslims, fine, if that is what you are standing for, that is clear. The

:08:12.:08:16.

final word is we have had open-door mass immigration from the

:08:17.:08:18.

Conservative Party, we've had it from the Labour Party and its fine

:08:19.:08:21.

if you are in north London to say these things, if you live in Oldham

:08:22.:08:26.

and your community has been radically changed and you have a

:08:27.:08:29.

whole population not integrating in, not speaking the language, something

:08:30.:08:33.

has got to be done. We had better leave it there. Thank you for coming

:08:34.:08:37.

in. I am en route to Clacton. We will see how you get on there.

:08:38.:08:40.

Now, Lib Dem leader Tim Farron was on TV earlier today

:08:41.:08:42.

and he was asked again about an issue that he's been

:08:43.:08:45.

asked about repeatedly - his attitude to homosexuality.

:08:46.:08:47.

when they asked you whether gay sex was a sin.

:08:48.:08:57.

Come on, Robert, I've been asked this question loads

:08:58.:08:59.

few days and I have been clear, even in the House of Commons,

:09:00.:09:03.

It's possible I'm not the only person getting tired

:09:04.:09:13.

Probably, but then why don't you just close it down?

:09:14.:09:17.

Toby Young, why does he get into such a mess over this? I mean, he is

:09:18.:09:29.

leader of the Liberal Democrats. Its 2017. I guess the reason he keeps

:09:30.:09:33.

refusing to answer that question is because what the implication is that

:09:34.:09:37.

he does think that homosexual acts are sinful, and he cannot bring

:09:38.:09:44.

himself not to say that, or to say what Robert Peston and others want

:09:45.:09:48.

him to say because he is an evangelical Christian who converted

:09:49.:09:52.

at the age of 20, 21, and clearly he really struggles with this issue and

:09:53.:09:55.

I think it will be really difficult for the Lib Dems to promote, or even

:09:56.:09:59.

Lib Dem candidates like Vince Cable, to promote the idea of the

:10:00.:10:02.

Progressive Alliance even though Tim has ruled it out, if he is not

:10:03.:10:06.

prepared to say I don't think homosexual acts are sinful. What is

:10:07.:10:15.

your view? It is disastrous if that is what he really thinks but Preston

:10:16.:10:18.

did not push the hard. I'm not sure he understood the difference about

:10:19.:10:20.

the question between gay sex and being gay. I think he just thought

:10:21.:10:23.

he was going on saying I'm not anti-gay. He needs to command

:10:24.:10:27.

immediately and clarify it. If you are right and he does actually think

:10:28.:10:32.

it is a sin he is in real trouble. There is a slight parallel with what

:10:33.:10:35.

police said before about Jeremy Corbyn, how his unilateral nuclear

:10:36.:10:39.

policy would appeal to the hard core of the left. The problem for Tim

:10:40.:10:44.

Farron with what he is saying here, while he is an evangelical

:10:45.:10:49.

Christian, this will not appeal to traditional Liberal Democrats. An

:10:50.:10:56.

LGBT community member cannot possibly vote for an MP who believes

:10:57.:11:01.

that a sexual act between homosexuals is sinful. He has not

:11:02.:11:04.

made that clear. Of course, he wants to stop Brexit as well so he is

:11:05.:11:08.

neither liberal nor democratic. He will have seven weeks to make it

:11:09.:11:11.

clear because I am sure he will be asked again. We have the chairman of

:11:12.:11:16.

the Conservative Party on earlier, Polly. An important figure for the

:11:17.:11:21.

Tory campaign. What did you make of what he said? I don't think he will

:11:22.:11:25.

have him on very often, he didn't do brilliantly. I think they will bring

:11:26.:11:29.

back chemical Ali, Michael Fallon, he can say anything with a straight

:11:30.:11:34.

face, he can say black is white. Michael Fallon, chemical Ali? Why do

:11:35.:11:39.

you say that? He can absolutely say black is white. For instance if you

:11:40.:11:45.

look back at what he said, you challenged him about the energy

:11:46.:11:51.

policy, when Ed Miliband came out with it, he said any kind of freeze

:11:52.:11:56.

would stop investment, the lights will go out. You have him on, he

:11:57.:12:00.

will say the exact opposite. He is magic at that. But I don't think

:12:01.:12:06.

your guy today was up to the job. If Michael Fallon was chemical Ali, or

:12:07.:12:13.

we should say chemical Fally, Patrick was more like comical Ali.

:12:14.:12:19.

The whole Iraq war is rushing back at me. He is the warm up comedian,

:12:20.:12:24.

there is another six weeks to go, just getting things started. What

:12:25.:12:28.

did you think? I don't think he was too bad, it was difficult for him to

:12:29.:12:32.

say exactly what was in the 2050 manifesto is going to be replicated

:12:33.:12:36.

in the Conservatives' manifesto during this general election, he

:12:37.:12:39.

doesn't want to be seen rowing back on stuff but on the other hand I

:12:40.:12:42.

don't think he can conceal the fact they will be far fewer commitments

:12:43.:12:46.

in this Conservative manifesto than in the last one, as you and I know,

:12:47.:12:50.

it was full of rash promises last time because they thought they would

:12:51.:12:59.

have to trade a lot of them away in the negotiations with the Liberal

:13:00.:13:01.

Democrats to form a second coalition so they are saddled with policies

:13:02.:13:03.

they don't particularly want to be hemmed in by. The forthcoming

:13:04.:13:05.

Conservative manifesto will be much lighter and shorter with fewer

:13:06.:13:08.

commitments. Different? Some stuff jumped from the 2050 manifesto? I

:13:09.:13:12.

think so but we will see a commitment to run schools to

:13:13.:13:15.

overcome that hurdle in the next parliament and I don't think, in

:13:16.:13:18.

spite of what you think, Polly, that it will be a hard tack to the right.

:13:19.:13:22.

I think if anything the mood music of the Conservative manifesto will

:13:23.:13:28.

be a centrist inclusive one. The mood music will be because the

:13:29.:13:32.

specifics would be there. She is good at saying governing for

:13:33.:13:35.

everybody and the many and not the few but when you look at the hard

:13:36.:13:39.

facts of what her and Hammond's budget looks like, you look at her

:13:40.:13:42.

hard Brexit, it's a very different story. Or that, the music has

:13:43.:13:50.

stopped for this week! Thank you. I will be back next week at the normal

:13:51.:13:57.

time of 11am on Sunday morning. On BBC One The Daily Politics is back

:13:58.:14:01.

at midday tomorrow and we will be on every day next week on BBC Two.

:14:02.:14:05.

Remember, if it's Sunday, it is The Sunday Politics.

:14:06.:14:35.

There'll be a couple of hours of just fantastic music, really,

:14:36.:14:38.

all the Ella classics, as well as some very special guests,

:14:39.:14:40.

we have Mica Paris, Imelda May, Dame Cleo Laine

:14:41.:14:44.

'There's a side to Rory that the public doesn't see.

:14:45.:14:49.

'Rory has suspected for some time that he may have ADHD.

:14:50.:14:54.

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