Browse content similar to 09/03/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. | :00:36. | :00:43. | |
He's a man on a mission. But is it mission impossible? Iain Duncan | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
Smith has started the radical reform of our welfare state. No tall order. | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
And not everything's going to plan. We'll be talking to the man himself. | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
Nick Clegg's hosting his party's spring conference in York. He's | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
getting pretty cosy with the party faithful. Not so cosy, though, with | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
his Coalition partners. In fact, things are getting a wee bit nasty. | :01:03. | :01:05. | |
We'll be talking to his right-hand man, Danny Alexander. | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
And are all politicians self-obsessed? Don't all shout at | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
once. We'll be examining the self-obsessed? Don't all shout at | :01:13. | :01:20. | |
Later in the programme: Taxing questions - we talk to the local | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
government minister about council tax. | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
And to the Plaid Cymru leader about taxing high earners. | :01:27. | :01:27. | |
And to the Plaid Cymru leader about Can Southwark Council really build | :01:28. | :01:30. | |
11,000 new homes in the next three decades? | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
And with me, as always, three of the best and the brightest political | :01:35. | :01:40. | |
panel in the business. At least that's what it says in the Sunday | :01:41. | :01:43. | |
Politics template. Back from the Oscars empty handed, Helen Lewis, | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
Janan Ganesh and Iain Martin. Yes, three camera-shy hacks, who've never | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
taken a selfie in their life. We'll be coming to that later. They just | :01:53. | :01:55. | |
like to tweet. And they'll be doing so throughout the programme. | :01:56. | :01:56. | |
Welcome. Now, first this morning, the Liberal | :01:57. | :02:03. | |
Democrat Spring Conference in York. I know you speak of nothing else! | :02:04. | :02:05. | |
The Yorkshire spring sunshine hasn't made the Lib Dems think any more | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
kindly of their Coalition partners. Indeed, Tory bashing is now the Lib | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
Dem default position. Here's Danny Alexander speaking yesterday. | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
Repairing the economy on its own isn't enough. We have to do it | :02:20. | :02:21. | |
fairly. isn't enough. We have to do it | :02:22. | :02:30. | |
the agenda a decision to cut taxes, income taxes, for working people. | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
Now, conference, note that word - forced. We have had to fight for | :02:36. | :02:41. | |
this at the last election and at every budget and at every Autumn | :02:42. | :02:44. | |
Statement since 2010 and what a fight it has been. | :02:45. | :02:52. | |
Danny Alexander joins us now. Are we going to have to suffer 14 months of | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
you and your colleagues desperately trying to distance yourself from the | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
Tories? It's not about distancing ourselves. It's about saying, " this | :03:03. | :03:08. | |
is what we as a party have achieved in government together with the | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
Conservatives". And saying, " this is what our agenda is for the | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
future" . It's not just about the fact that this April we reach that | :03:19. | :03:24. | |
?10,000 income tax allowance that we promised in our manifesto in 2010 | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
but also that we want to go further in the next parliament and live that | :03:29. | :03:36. | |
to ?12,500, getting that over a 2-term Liberal Democrat government. | :03:37. | :03:39. | |
It's very important for all parties to set out their own agenda, ideas | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
and vision for the future, whilst also celebrating what we're | :03:44. | :03:46. | |
achieving jointly in this Coalition, particularly around the fact that we | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
are, having taken very difficult decisions, seeing the economy | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
improving and seeing jobs creation in this country, which is something | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
I'm personally very proud and, as the Coalition, we have achieved and | :04:01. | :04:03. | |
wouldn't have if it hadn't been for the decisions of the Liberal | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
Democrats. Lets try and move on. You've made that point about 50 | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
times on this show alone. You now seem more interested in Rowling with | :04:13. | :04:15. | |
each other than running the country, don't you? -- rowing with each | :04:16. | :04:23. | |
other. I think we are making sure we take the decisions, particularly | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
about getting our economy on the right track. Of course, there are | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
lots of things where the Conservatives have one view of the | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
future and we have a different view and it's quite proper that we should | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
set those things out. There are big differences between the Liberal | :04:42. | :04:43. | |
Democrats and the Conservatives, just as there were big differences | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
between the Liberal Democrats and the Labour Party. I believe we're | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
the only party that can marry that commitment delivering a strong | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
economy, which Labour can't do, and that commitment to delivering a | :04:55. | :04:57. | |
fairer society, which the Tories can't be trusted to do by | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
themselves. You are going out of your way to pick fights with the | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
Tories at the moment. It's a bit like American wrestling. It is all | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
show. Nobody is really getting hurt. I've been compared to many things | :05:10. | :05:12. | |
but an American wrestler is a first! I don't see it like that. It | :05:13. | :05:20. | |
is right for us as a party to set out what we've achieved and show | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
people that what we promised on 2010 on income tax cuts is what this | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
government is delivering. But nobody seems convinced by these | :05:31. | :05:33. | |
manufactured rows with the Tories. You've just come last in a council | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
by-election with 56 votes. You were even bitten by an Elvis | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
impersonator! Yes, that is true. -- beaten. I could equally well quote | :05:44. | :05:53. | |
council by-elections that we've won recently, beating Conservatives, the | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
Labour Party and UKIP. Our record on that is pretty good. You can always | :06:00. | :06:02. | |
pick one that shows one or other party in a poor light. Our party is | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
having real traction with the electric and the places where we | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
have a real chance of winning. If you're not an American wrestler, | :06:12. | :06:13. | |
maybe you should be an Elvis impersonator! You told your spring | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
forum... You don't want to hear me sing! You want to raise the personal | :06:19. | :06:24. | |
allowance to ?12,500 in the next Parliament. Will you refuse to enter | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
into Coalition with any party that won't agree to that? What I said | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
yesterday is that this will be something which is a very high | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
priority for the Liberal Democrats. It's something that we will very | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
much seek to achieve if we are involved... We know that - will it | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
be a red line? If you are a number in 2010, on the front page of our | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
manifesto, we highlighted four policies... I know all that. Will it | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
be a red line? It will be something that is a very high priority for the | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
Liberal Democrats to deliver. For the fifth time, will it be a red | :07:05. | :07:11. | |
line? It will be, as I said, a very high priority for the Liberal | :07:12. | :07:13. | |
Democrats in the next Parliament. That's my language. We did that in | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
the next election. The number-1 promise on our manifesto with a | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
?10,000 threshold and we've delivered that in this Parliament. | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
People can see that when we say something is a top priority, we | :07:26. | :07:32. | |
deliver it. Is it your claim... Are you claiming that the Tories would | :07:33. | :07:35. | |
not have raised the starting point of income tax if it hadn't been for | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
the Liberal Democrats? If you remember back in the leaders' | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
debates in the 2010 election campaign, Nick Clegg was rightly | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
championing this idea and David Cameron said it couldn't be | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
afforded. Each step of the way in the Coalition negotiations within | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
government, we've had to fight for that. The covert overtures have | :08:00. | :08:02. | |
other priorities. -- the Conservatives. I don't want to go | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
back into history. I'd like to get to the present. Have the | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
Conservatives resisted every effort to raise the starting point of | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
income tax? As I said, we promised this in 2010, they said it couldn't | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
be done. We've made sure it was delivered in the Coalition. Have | :08:22. | :08:27. | |
they resisted it? We've argued for big steps along the way and forced | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
it on to the agenda. They've wanted to deliver other things are so we've | :08:32. | :08:39. | |
had to fight for our priority... Did the Conservatives resist every | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
attempt? It has been resisted, overall the things I'm talking | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
about, by Conservatives, because they have wanted to deliver other | :08:49. | :08:51. | |
things and, of course, in a Coalition you negotiate. Both | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
parties have their priorities. Our priority has been a very consistent | :08:58. | :09:00. | |
one. Last year, they were arguing about tax breaks for married | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
couples. They were arguing in 2010 for tax cuts for millionaires. Our | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
priority in all these discussions has been a consistent one, which is | :09:12. | :09:14. | |
to say we want cutbacks for working people. -- we want to cut tax for | :09:15. | :09:23. | |
working people. That has been delivered by both parties in the | :09:24. | :09:26. | |
Coalition government full top So what do you think when the Tories | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
take credit for it? I understand why they want to try to do that. Most | :09:32. | :09:34. | |
people understand what we have just said. Not if the polls are to be | :09:35. | :09:42. | |
believed... You're under 10%. This is one of the things, when I talk to | :09:43. | :09:50. | |
people, but I find they know that the Lib Dems have delivered in | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
government. People know we promised it in 2010 and we're the ones who | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
forced this idea onto the agenda in our election manifesto. You've said | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
that five times in this interview alone. The reality is, this is now a | :10:03. | :10:09. | |
squabbling, loveless marriage. We're getting bored with all your tests, | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
the voters. Why don't you just divorced? -- all your arguments. I | :10:14. | :10:21. | |
don't accept that. On a lot of policy areas, the Coalition | :10:22. | :10:24. | |
government has worked very well together. We're delivering an awful | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
lot of things that matter to this country. Most importantly, the mess | :10:29. | :10:31. | |
that Labour made of the economy we are sorting out. We are getting our | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
finances on the right track, making our economy more competitive, | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
creating jobs up and down this country, supporting businesses to | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
invest in growth. That is what this Coalition was set up to do, what it | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
is delivering, and both myself and George Osborne are proud to have | :10:48. | :10:49. | |
worked together to deliver that record. Danny Alexander, thanks for | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
that. Enjoyed York. Helen, is anybody listening? I do worry that | :10:55. | :11:00. | |
another 40 months of this might drive voter apathy up to record | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
levels. There is a simple answer to why they don't divorced - it's the | :11:05. | :11:11. | |
agreement that Parliament will last until 2015. MPs are bouncing around | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
Westminster with very little to do. They are looking for things to put | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
in the Queen's Speech and we are going to have rocks basically the 40 | :11:20. | :11:22. | |
months and very little substantial difference in policies. Do you | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
believe Danny Alexander when he says there would have been no rise in the | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
starting rate of income tax if not for the Lib Dems? He's gilding the | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
lily. If you look back at papers are written in 2001 suggesting precisely | :11:37. | :11:44. | |
this policy, written by a Tory peer, you see there are plenty of Tories | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
which suggest there would have been this kind of move. I can see why | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
Danny Alexander needs to do this and they need to show they've achieved | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
something in government because they are below 10% in the polls and | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
finding it incredibly difficult to get any traction at all. The other | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
leg of this Lib Dem repositioning is now to be explicitly the party of | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
Europe and to be the vanguard of the fight to be all things pro-Europe. | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
Mr Clegg is going to debate Nigel Farage in the run-up to the European | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
elections. If, despite that, the Lib Dems come last of the major parties, | :12:24. | :12:49. | |
doesn't it show how out of touch different. They are targeting a | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
section of the electorate who are a bit more amenable to their views | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
than the rest. They wouldn't get 20% of the vote. They are targeting that | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
one section. They have to do disproportionately well amongst | :13:05. | :13:06. | |
those and it will payoff and they will end up with something like 15%. | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
How many seats will the Lib Dems losing the next election? Ten. 20. | :13:12. | :13:21. | |
15. Triangulation! We'll keep that on tape and see what actually | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
happens! The Work and Pensions Secretary Iain | :13:27. | :13:29. | |
Duncan Smith is a man on a mission. He's undertaken the biggest overhaul | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
in our welfare state since it was invented way back in the | :13:34. | :13:36. | |
black-and-white days of the late 1940s. A committed Roman Catholic, | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
he's said he has a moral vision to reverse the previous welfare system, | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
which he believes didn't create enough incentive for people to work. | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
But are his reforms working? Are they fair? As he bitten off more | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
than he can chew? In a moment, we'll speak to the man himself but first, | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
here's Adam. Hackney in north London and we're on | :13:59. | :14:01. | |
the road with the man who might just be the most ambitious welfare | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
secretary there's ever been. It's a journey that started in the wind and | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
rain on a Glasgow council estate 12 years ago when he was Tory leader. | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
He came face-to-face with what it meant to be poor. A selection of | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
teddy bears. It's where he discovered his recipe for reform, | :14:20. | :14:23. | |
according to one of the advisers who was with him. There are things that | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
if you do get a job, keep your family together, stay off drugs and | :14:29. | :14:34. | |
alcohol, make sure you have a proper skill - that's what keeps you of | :14:35. | :14:40. | |
poverty. He, very ambitiously, wants to redefine the nature of what it | :14:41. | :14:43. | |
means to be poor and how you get away from poverty. Back in north | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
London, he's come to congratulate the troops on some good news. In | :14:49. | :14:52. | |
this borough, the number of people on job-seeker's allowance has gone | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
down by 29% in the last year, up from around 1700 to around 1200. But | :14:57. | :15:03. | |
the picture in his wider changes to the welfare state is a bit more | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
mixed. A cap on the total amount of benefits a family can get, of | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
?26,000 a year, is hugely popular but there have been howls of protest | :15:15. | :15:17. | |
over cuts to housing benefit, labelled the bedroom tax by some. | :15:18. | :15:23. | |
Protests, too, about assessments for people on disability benefits, | :15:24. | :15:25. | |
inherited from the previous government. Iain Duncan Smith has | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
been accused of being heartless and the company doing them, Atos, has | :15:30. | :15:35. | |
pulled out. And then the big one - and universal credit, a plan to roll | :15:36. | :15:38. | |
six benefits into one monthly payment, in a way designed to ensure | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
that work always pays. Some of the IT has been written off and the | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
timetable seems to be slipping. Outside the bubble of the | :15:49. | :15:51. | |
stage-managed ministerial trip, a local Labour MP reckons he's bitten | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
off more than he can chew. The great desire is to say, " let's have one | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
simple one size fits all approach" . And there isn't one size of person | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
or family out there. People need to change and they can challenge on the | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
turn of a penny almost. One minute they are doing the right thing, | :16:11. | :16:13. | |
working hard. Next minute, they need a level of support and if this | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
simple system doesn't deliver that for them, they're in a difficult | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
position. And that's the flying visit to the front line finished. He | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
does not like to hang about and just as well do - his overhaul of the | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
entire benefits system still has quite a long way to go. And Iain | :16:32. | :16:40. | |
Duncan Smith joins me now. Before I come onto the interview on welfare | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
reform, is Danny Alexander right when he claims the Lib Dems had to | :16:45. | :16:51. | |
fight to get the Tories to raise the income tax threshold? That is not my | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
recollection of what happened. These debates took place in the | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
Coalition. The Conservatives are in favour of reducing the overall | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
burden of taxation, so the question was how best do we do it? The | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
conversation took place, they were keen on raising the threshold, there | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
were also other ways of doing it but it is clear from the Conservatives | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
that we always wanted to improve the quality of life of those at the | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
bottom so raising the threshold fit within the overall plan. If it was a | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
row, it was the kind of row you have over a cup of tea round the | :17:32. | :17:40. | |
breakfast table. We have got a lot to cover. There are two criticisms | :17:41. | :17:47. | |
mainly of what you are doing - will they work, and will they be fair? | :17:48. | :17:54. | |
Leslie Roberts, one of our viewers, wants to know why so much has | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
already been written off due to failures of the universal credit | :17:59. | :18:01. | |
system even though it has been barely introduced. Relatively it has | :18:02. | :18:10. | |
been a ?2 billion investment project, in the private sector | :18:11. | :18:17. | |
programmes are written off regularly at 30, 40%. The IT is working, we | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
are improving as we go along, the key thing is to keep your eye on the | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
parts that don't work and make sure they don't create a problem for the | :18:28. | :18:37. | |
programme. 140 million has been wasted! The 40 million that was | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
written off was just do with security IT, and I took that | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
decision over a year and a half ago so the programme continued to roll | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
out. Those figures include the standard right down, the aggregation | :18:52. | :19:02. | |
of cost over a period of time. The computers were written down years | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
ago but they continue to work now. Universal credit is rolling out, we | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
are doing the Pathfinders and learning a lot but I will not ever | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
do this again like the last government, big band launches, you | :19:16. | :19:27. | |
should do it phrase by phrase. Even your colleague Francis Maude says | :19:28. | :19:29. | |
the implementation of universal credit has been pretty lamentable. | :19:30. | :19:36. | |
He was referring back to the time when I stopped that element of the | :19:37. | :19:42. | |
process and I agreed with that. I intervened to make the changes. The | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
key point is that it is rolling out and I invite anyone to look at where | :19:48. | :19:54. | |
it is being rolled out to. You were predicting that a million people | :19:55. | :19:57. | |
would be an universal credit, this is the new welfare credit which | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
rolls up six existing welfare benefits and you were predicting a | :20:03. | :20:08. | |
million people would be on it by April, well it is March and only | :20:09. | :20:18. | |
3200 are on it. I changed the way we rolled it out and there was a reason | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
for that. Under the advice of someone we brought from outside, he | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
said that you are better rolling it out slower and gaining momentum | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
later on. On the timetables for rolling out we are pretty clear that | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
it will roll out within the timescale is originally set. We will | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
roll it out into the Northwest so that we replicate the north and the | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
Northwest, recognise how it works properly. You will not hit 1 million | :20:47. | :20:54. | |
by April. I have no intention of claiming that, and it is quite | :20:55. | :20:57. | |
deliberate because that is the wrong thing to do. We want to roll it out | :20:58. | :21:03. | |
carefully so we make sure everything about it works. There are lots of | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
variables in this process but if you do it that way, you will not end up | :21:08. | :21:13. | |
with the kind of debacle where in the past something like ?28 billion | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
worth of IT programmes were written off. ?38 billion of net benefits, | :21:18. | :21:26. | |
which is exactly what the N a O Z, so it is worth getting it right. | :21:27. | :21:33. | |
William Grant wants to know, when will the universal credit cover the | :21:34. | :21:39. | |
whole country? By 2016, everybody who is claiming one of those six | :21:40. | :21:42. | |
benefits will be claiming universal credit. Some and sickness benefits | :21:43. | :21:51. | |
will take longer to come on because it is more difficult. Many of them | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
have no work expectations on them, but for those on working tax | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
credits, on things like job-seeker's allowance, they will be making | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
claims on universal credit. Many of them are already doing that now, | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
there are 200,000 people around the country already on universal credit. | :22:12. | :22:18. | |
You cannot give me a date as to when everybody will be on it? 2016 is | :22:19. | :22:27. | |
when everybody claiming this benefit will be on, then you have to bring | :22:28. | :22:33. | |
others and take them slower. Universal credit is a big and | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
important reform, not an IT reform. The important point is that it will | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
be a massive cultural reform. Right now somebody has to go to work and | :22:44. | :22:49. | |
there is a small job out there. They won't take that because the way | :22:50. | :22:52. | |
their benefits are withdrawn, it will mean it is not worth doing it. | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
Under the way we have got it in the Pathfinders, the change is | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
dramatic. A job-seeker can take a small part time job while they are | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
looking for work and it means flexibility for business so it is a | :23:07. | :23:12. | |
big change. Lets see if that is true because universal credit is meant to | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
make work pay, that is your mantra. Let me show you a quote Minister in | :23:17. | :23:23. | |
the last -- in the last Tory conference. It | :23:24. | :23:46. | |
has only come down to 76%. Actually form own parents, before they get to | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
the tax bracket it is well below that. That is a decision the | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
Government takes about the withdrawal rate so you can lower | :23:58. | :24:03. | |
that rate or raise it. And do your reforms, some of the poorest | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
people, if they burn an extra pound, will pay a marginal rate of | :24:08. | :24:20. | |
76%. -- if they earn an extra pound. The 98% he is talking about is a | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
specific area to do with lone parents but there are specific | :24:25. | :24:31. | |
compound areas in the process that mean people are better off staying | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
at home then going to work. They will be able to identify how much | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
they are better off without needing to have a maths degree to figure it | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
out. They are all taken away at different rates at the moment, it is | :24:47. | :24:52. | |
complex and chaotic. Under universal credit that won't happen, and they | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
will always be better off than they are now. Would you work that bit | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
harder if the Government was going to take away that portion of what | :25:04. | :25:12. | |
you learned? At the moment you are going to tax poor people at the same | :25:13. | :25:18. | |
rate the French government taxes billionaires. Millions will be | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
better off under this system of universal credit, I promise you, and | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
that level of withdrawal then becomes something governments have | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
to publicly discussed as to whether they lower or raise it. But George | :25:33. | :25:38. | |
Osborne wouldn't give you the extra money to allow for the taper, is | :25:39. | :25:44. | |
that right? The moment somebody crosses into work under the present | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
system, there are huge cliff edges, in other words the immediate | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
withdrawal makes it worse for them to go into work than otherwise. If | :25:54. | :25:59. | |
he had given you more money, you could have tapered it more gently? | :26:00. | :26:09. | |
Of course, but the Chancellor can always ultimately make that | :26:10. | :26:12. | |
decision. These decisions are made by chancellors like tax rates, but | :26:13. | :26:18. | |
it would be much easier under this system for the public to see what | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
the Government chooses as its priorities. At the moment nobody has | :26:24. | :26:29. | |
any idea but in the future it will be. Under the Pathfinders, we are | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
finding people are going to work faster, doing more job searches, and | :26:35. | :26:40. | |
more likely to take work under universal credit. Public Accounts | :26:41. | :26:46. | |
Committee said this programme has been worse than doing nothing, for | :26:47. | :26:55. | |
the long-term credit. It has not been a glorious success, has it? | :26:56. | :27:03. | |
That is wrong. Right now the work programme is succeeding, more people | :27:04. | :27:07. | |
are going to work, somewhere in the order of 500,000 people have gone | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
back into work as a result of the programme. Around 280,000 people are | :27:12. | :27:17. | |
in a sustained work over six months. Many companies are well | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
above it, and the whole point about the work programme is that it is | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
setup so that we make the private sector, two things that are | :27:28. | :27:30. | |
important, there is competition in every area so that people can be | :27:31. | :27:36. | |
sucked out of the programme and others can move in. The important | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
point here as well is this, that actually they don't get paid unless | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
they sustain somebody for six months of employment. Under previous | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
programmes under the last government, they wasted millions | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
paying companies who took the money and didn't do enough to get people | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
into work. The best performing provider only moved 5% of people off | :28:00. | :28:06. | |
benefit into work, the worst managed only 2%. It is young people. That | :28:07. | :28:14. | |
report was on the early first months of the work programme, it is a | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
two-year point we are now and I can give you the figures for this. They | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
are above the line, the improvement has been dramatic and the work | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
programme is better than any other back to work programme under the | :28:29. | :28:37. | |
last government. So why is long-term unemployment rising? It is falling. | :28:38. | :28:43. | |
We have the largest number of people back in work, there is more women in | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
work than ever before, more jobs being created, 1.6 million new jobs | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
being created. The work programme is working, our back to work programmes | :28:54. | :29:00. | |
are incredibly successful at below cost so we are doing better than the | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
last government ever did, and it will continue to improve because | :29:05. | :29:10. | |
this process is very important. The competition is what drives up | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
performance. We want the best performers to take the biggest | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
numbers of people. You are practising Catholic, Archbishop | :29:19. | :29:25. | |
Vincent Nichols has attached your reforms -- attack to your reforms, | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
saying they are becoming more punitive to the most vulnerable in | :29:30. | :29:35. | |
the land. What do you say? I don't agree. It would have been good if | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
you called me before making these attacks because most are not | :29:40. | :29:50. | |
correct. For the poorest temper sent in their | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
society, they are now spending, as a percentage of their income, less | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
than they did before. I'm not quite sure what he thinks welfare is | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
about. Welfare is about stabilising people but most of all making sure | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
that households can achieve what they need through work. The number | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
of workless households under previous governments arose | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
consistently. It has fallen for the first time in 30 years by nearly | :30:17. | :30:22. | |
18%. Something like a quarter of a million children were growing up in | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
workless households and are now in households with work and they are | :30:27. | :30:29. | |
three times more likely to grow up with work than they would have been | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
in workless households. Let me come into something that he may have had | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
in mind as being punitive - some other housing benefit changes. A | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
year ago, the Prime Minister announced that people with severely | :30:43. | :30:45. | |
disabled children would be exempt from the changes but that was only | :30:46. | :30:50. | |
after your department fought a High Court battle over children who | :30:51. | :30:55. | |
couldn't share a bedroom because of severe disabilities. Isn't that what | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
the Archbishop means by punitive or, some may describe it, heartless. We | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
were originally going to appeal that and I said no. You put it up for an | :31:05. | :31:11. | |
appeal and I said no. We're talking about families with disabled | :31:12. | :31:16. | |
children. There are good reasons for this. Children with conditions like | :31:17. | :31:19. | |
that don't make decisions about their household - their parents do - | :31:20. | :31:24. | |
so I said we would exempt them. But for adults with disabilities the | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
courts have upheld all of our decisions against complaints. But | :31:29. | :31:32. | |
you did appeal it. It's just that, having lost in the appeal court, you | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
didn't then go to the Supreme Court. You make decisions about this. My | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
view was that it was right to exempt them at that time. I made that | :31:41. | :31:46. | |
decision, not the Prime Minister. Let's get this right - the context | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
of this is quite important. Housing benefit under the last government | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
doubled under the last ten years to ?20 billion. It was set to rise to | :31:55. | :32:01. | |
another 25 billion, the fastest rising of the benefits, it was out | :32:02. | :32:04. | |
of control. We had to get it into control. It wasn't easy but we | :32:05. | :32:08. | |
haven't cut the overall rise in housing. We've lowered it but we | :32:09. | :32:12. | |
haven't cut housing benefit and we've tried to do it carefully so | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
that people get a fair crack. On the spare room subsidy, which is what | :32:17. | :32:19. | |
this complaint was about, the reality is that there are a quarter | :32:20. | :32:24. | |
of a million people living in overcrowded accommodation. The last | :32:25. | :32:26. | |
government left us with 1 million people on a waiting list for housing | :32:27. | :32:29. | |
and there were half a million people sitting in houses with spare | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
bedrooms they weren't using. As we build more houses, yes we need more, | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
but the reality is that councils and others have to use their | :32:38. | :32:40. | |
accommodation carefully so that they actually improve the lot of those | :32:41. | :32:43. | |
living in desperate situations in overcrowded accommodation, and | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
taxpayers are paying a lot of money. This will help people get | :32:48. | :32:52. | |
back to work. They're more likely to go to work and more likely, | :32:53. | :32:55. | |
therefore, to end up in the right sort of housing. We've not got much | :32:56. | :33:01. | |
time left. A centre-right think tank that you've been associated with, on | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
job-seeker's allowance, says 70,000 job-seekers' benefits were withdrawn | :33:07. | :33:13. | |
unfairly. A viewer wants to know, are these reforms too harsh and | :33:14. | :33:19. | |
punitive? Those figures are not correct. The Policy Exchange is | :33:20. | :33:22. | |
wrong? Those figures are not correct and we will be publishing corrected | :33:23. | :33:30. | |
figures. The reality is... Some people have lost their job-seeker | :33:31. | :33:33. | |
benefits and been forced to go to food backs and they shouldn't have. | :33:34. | :33:37. | |
No, they're not. What he is referring to is that we allowed an | :33:38. | :33:43. | |
adviser to make a decision if some but it is not cooperating. We now | :33:44. | :33:46. | |
make people sign a contract, where they agree these things. These are | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
things we do for you and if you don't do these things, you are | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
likely to have your benefit withdrawn on job-seeker's allowance. | :33:55. | :33:57. | |
Some of this was an fairly withdrawn. There are millions of | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
these things that go through. This is a very small subset. But if you | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
lose your job-seeker benefit unfairly, you have no cash flow. | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
There is an immediate review within seven days of that decision. Within | :34:12. | :34:17. | |
seven days, that decision is reviewed. They are able to get a | :34:18. | :34:20. | |
hardship fund straightaway if there is a problem. We have nearly ?1 | :34:21. | :34:25. | |
billion setup to help people, through crisis, hardship funds and | :34:26. | :34:32. | |
in many other ways. We've given more than ?200 million to authorities to | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
do face-to-face checks. This is not a nasty, vicious system but a system | :34:37. | :34:42. | |
that says, "look, we ask you to do certain things. Taxpayers pay this | :34:43. | :34:45. | |
money. You are out of work but you have obligations to seek work. We | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
simply ask that you stick to doing those. Those sanctions are therefore | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
be but he will not cooperate" . I think it is only fair to say to | :34:55. | :34:57. | |
those people that they make choices throughout their life and if they | :34:58. | :35:00. | |
choose not to cooperate, this is what happens. Is child poverty | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
rising? No, it is actually falling in the last figures. 300,000 it fell | :35:06. | :35:13. | |
in the last... Let me show you these figures. That is a projection by the | :35:14. | :35:19. | |
Institute of fiscal studies. It also shows that it has gone up every year | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
and will rise by 400,000 in this Parliament, and your government, and | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
will continue to rise. But never mind the projection. It may be | :35:29. | :35:32. | |
right, may be wrong. It would be 400,000 up compared to when -- what | :35:33. | :35:38. | |
you inherited when this Parliament ends. That isn't a projection but | :35:39. | :35:44. | |
the actual figures. But the last figures show that child poverty has | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
fallen by some 300,000. The important point is... Can I just | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
finished this point of? Child poverty is measured against 60% of | :35:54. | :35:56. | |
median income so this is an issue about how we measure child poverty. | :35:57. | :36:03. | |
You want to change the measure. I made the decision not to publish our | :36:04. | :36:06. | |
change figures at this point because we've still got a bit more work to | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
do on them but there is a big consensus that the way we measure | :36:11. | :36:13. | |
child poverty right now does not measure exactly what requires to be | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
done. For example, a family with an individual parent who may be drug | :36:19. | :36:21. | |
addicted and gets what we think is enough money to be just over the | :36:22. | :36:25. | |
line, their children may be living in poverty but they won't be | :36:26. | :36:28. | |
measured so we need to get a measurement that looks at poverty in | :36:29. | :36:31. | |
terms of how people live, not just in terms of the income levels they | :36:32. | :36:37. | |
have. You can see on that chart - 400,000 rising by the end of this | :36:38. | :36:42. | |
Parliament - you are deciding over an increase. Speedier I want to | :36:43. | :36:46. | |
change it because under the last government child poverty rose | :36:47. | :36:49. | |
consistently from 2004 and they ended up chucking huge sums of money | :36:50. | :36:55. | |
into things like tax credits. In tax credits, in six years before the | :36:56. | :37:02. | |
last election, the last government spent ?175 billion chasing a poverty | :37:03. | :37:05. | |
target and they didn't achieve what they set out to achieve. We don't | :37:06. | :37:09. | |
want to continue down that line where you simply put money into a | :37:10. | :37:14. | |
welfare system to alter a marginal income line. It doesn't make any | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
sense. That's why we want to change it, not because some projection says | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
it might be going up. I will point out again it isn't a projection up | :37:23. | :37:35. | |
to 2013-14. You want it to make work pay but more people in poverty are | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
now in working families than in workless families. For them, workers | :37:40. | :37:45. | |
not paying. Those figures referred to the last government's time in | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
government. What is interesting about it is that until 2010, under | :37:51. | :37:56. | |
the last government, those in working families - poverty in | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
working families rose by half a million. For the two years up to the | :38:01. | :38:03. | |
end of those figures, it has been flat, under this government. These | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
are figures at the last government... You inherited and it | :38:09. | :38:14. | |
hasn't changed. The truth is, even if you are in poverty in a working | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
family, your children, if they are in workless families, are three | :38:20. | :38:22. | |
times more likely to be out of work and to suffer real hardship. So, in | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
other words, moving people up the scale, into work and then on is | :38:28. | :38:33. | |
important. The problem with the last government system with working tax | :38:34. | :38:36. | |
credit is it locks them into certain hours and they didn't progress. | :38:37. | :38:40. | |
We're changing that so that you progress on up and go out of poverty | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
through work and beyond it. But those figures you're referring to | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
refer to the last government's tenure and they spent ?175 billion | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
on a tax credit which still left people in work in poverty. Even 20 | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
minutes isn't enough to go through all this. A lot more I'd like to | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
talk about. I hope you will come back. I will definitely come back. | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
Thank you for joining us. You're watching the Sunday | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now for | :39:12. | :39:12. | |
Sunday Politics Scotland. Of Hello and on the Sunday Politics | :39:13. | :39:29. | |
Wales. The local government minister tells | :39:30. | :39:32. | |
me she wants councils to be reasonable on tax, and transparent | :39:33. | :39:35. | |
on pay. Plaid Cymru's leader distances herself from a call to cut | :39:36. | :39:40. | |
tax for high earners and. Where does the Silk Road lead? To a more | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
powerful assembly perhaps? I'm joined by two people with opposing | :39:47. | :39:49. | |
views. But first, Plaid Cymru's spring | :39:50. | :39:53. | |
conference closed yesterday. Plaid leader Leanne Wood used it to attack | :39:54. | :39:56. | |
what she calls UKIP's "ugly politics". | :39:57. | :40:04. | |
But that in turn was a time by one of her predecessors, by Comrie | :40:05. | :40:10. | |
member David Thomas. She has distanced herself from a call from | :40:11. | :40:16. | |
Adam Price to lower the top rate of income tax. | :40:17. | :40:24. | |
In your speech yesterday you talked about all sorts of things, but in | :40:25. | :40:32. | |
particular you are very critical of the Labour government, more critical | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
than you have been in the past. I wonder since you have been leader, | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
you are very conciliatory at the start. Is this a change of | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
direction? I would say that I have been quite | :40:45. | :40:51. | |
keen to put forward by Comrie's positive role in government, but to | :40:52. | :40:54. | |
make sure we scrutinise the government we have got. I intend for | :40:55. | :41:00. | |
Plaid Cymru to run an excellent campaign in 2016, DFID before the | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
people of Wales a solid programme of government that is able to meet | :41:05. | :41:07. | |
their needs and salt people's problems, and in order to do that, | :41:08. | :41:15. | |
that will result in hopefully a good result for us where we are | :41:16. | :41:21. | |
government of Wales. People need to be aware of the failings of this | :41:22. | :41:24. | |
government and there are plenty, and I pointed some of them out. | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
You said that Labour was bidding under threat the future of | :41:30. | :41:32. | |
devolution. A very strong thing to say, what did you mean? | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
We have big failings in our education system, in our health | :41:38. | :41:44. | |
system, hospitals and civilisation, which risks further exacerbating | :41:45. | :41:47. | |
those problems, the economy is in decline. We saw the figures for West | :41:48. | :41:53. | |
Wales and the valleys where the GDP has gone down from 65% of the EU | :41:54. | :42:01. | |
average to 64%. There are huge problems across the range of | :42:02. | :42:04. | |
responsibilities of the Welsh government that are not being | :42:05. | :42:07. | |
addressed, and we have to shine a light on it. | :42:08. | :42:11. | |
You talked about this economic recovery being hollow, and based on | :42:12. | :42:20. | |
a spreadsheet, and yet, what is based on a spreadsheet about the | :42:21. | :42:23. | |
unemployment rate in Wales now lower than the UK averages that is real. | :42:24. | :42:33. | |
Yes, it is real, but it masks problems that are there. There are | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
many people on zero hours contracts, many people who are underemployed, | :42:38. | :42:43. | |
more people working part-time. There are 250,000 people in Wales in | :42:44. | :42:47. | |
earning less than a living wage. There are a lot of things that need | :42:48. | :42:50. | |
to be done in terms of turning the economy around. Where I live, youth | :42:51. | :42:56. | |
unemployment stands at 40%. The Welsh government would try to paint | :42:57. | :42:59. | |
a picture that everything in the garden is rosy. The recovery that we | :43:00. | :43:05. | |
have seen is fine on paper, but what it shows to me is that there are | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
problems being masked in Wales, and also that there is an overheating | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
economy in London and the region around there in the south-east that | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
is giving a picture for the whole of the UK which is very imbalanced, and | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
Wales has lost out a lot due to austerity measures from the | :43:26. | :43:28. | |
Conservative and Liberal Democrat coalition, and all of those problems | :43:29. | :43:34. | |
have built up over many years. The figures make sure one thing, but you | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
need to dig underneath us to get the true picture. | :43:39. | :43:42. | |
The main thrust of your attack was against UKIP. The former leader of | :43:43. | :43:48. | |
the party has described what you said about UKIP as facile. What you | :43:49. | :43:55. | |
said was that a vote for UKIP was somehow anti-Welsh, it was against | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
the interests of Wales. He thinks that is far too simplistic, and a | :44:00. | :44:05. | |
lot of people whether you like it or not support UKIP in Wales, and as a | :44:06. | :44:08. | |
result you should treat them more seriously. | :44:09. | :44:12. | |
I do treat people who support UKIP seriously, that is why I am keen to | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
point out the risk is UKIP when. Wales faces two very different | :44:17. | :44:23. | |
futures and they want people to have their eyes wide open. In 2017 we | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
could be the king had a referendum which cools Wales out of the EU | :44:29. | :44:33. | |
potentially against the will of the people of Wales. It could be that | :44:34. | :44:37. | |
the majority of people want to go that way, but I would argue that | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
when one in ten jobs as reliant on us being in the EU, it is against | :44:43. | :44:45. | |
the Welsh national interest for us to polite. I vote for UKIP is | :44:46. | :44:51. | |
therefore a vote against the Welsh national interest. -- it is against | :44:52. | :44:56. | |
the interest are asked to call out of Europe. | :44:57. | :45:04. | |
I faced a number of tricky tests since becoming leader of this | :45:05. | :45:09. | |
party. We have got a job of work to do, but I can be confident now in | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
having that these arguments forward to our activists that they will go | :45:15. | :45:20. | |
out onto the streets and make sure that the Plaid Cymru vote gets out. | :45:21. | :45:26. | |
We are also appealing to disillusioned Liberal Democrat and | :45:27. | :45:31. | |
green voters who have never had an MEP in Wales and have very little | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
chance of getting one. If they want to support policies like insuring | :45:36. | :45:39. | |
climate changes the agenda, the Robin Hood tax, international | :45:40. | :45:43. | |
cooperation, if those things are important to those waters, what they | :45:44. | :45:49. | |
really need to do on May 22 is to not stay at home but go out and | :45:50. | :45:59. | |
support Plaid Cymru and the MEPs. One of the things that has been | :46:00. | :46:01. | |
under discussion in the last few days is what we could do with | :46:02. | :46:07. | |
taxation. Adam Price a senior figure in the party indicated that he would | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
lower the higher rate of income tax is that power existed to Wales. I | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
think most people will assume you would be against that idea. | :46:17. | :46:22. | |
I'm not appeared at this point to outline Plaid Cymru's tax policies. | :46:23. | :46:29. | |
Recently there has been an application of sharing income tax | :46:30. | :46:33. | |
Paris with Wales... If they come, those powers will not be with us | :46:34. | :46:39. | |
until 2021. Nobody can predict what the state of the Welsh economy will | :46:40. | :46:46. | |
be like in 2021. What Adam Price has put forward is for changing the top | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
rate of tax in the event that we have those tax-raising powers | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
without a lockstep. Are many ifs there, but it is an interesting | :46:56. | :47:01. | |
debate. It will form part of the debate in the coming years because | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
what we must do is raise the level of economic activity in Wales, raise | :47:07. | :47:09. | |
the level of productivity, and ultimately maximise the take in the | :47:10. | :47:16. | |
tax pot. There will be a range of debates about how we do that, but we | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
will get our policy right in time for those tax-raising powers if they | :47:22. | :47:23. | |
do ever come to Wales. Councils have set their budgets for | :47:24. | :47:27. | |
the next financial year, and there are cuts all round. Except for | :47:28. | :47:30. | |
council tax, which will rise by an average of ?42. Meanwhile, there's | :47:31. | :47:35. | |
continuing criticism of the wages paid to some local authority chief | :47:36. | :47:44. | |
executives. Cracks are showing at cash-strapped | :47:45. | :47:47. | |
councils. That is the verdict of the Wales audit office... It says many | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
authorities don't have clear plans to cope with austerity, so with | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
bigger cuts about to bite, I met up with local government Minister | :47:57. | :48:00. | |
Lesley Griffiths and asked whether councils have their house in order. | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
Local authorities have been told that cuts are coming, and in the | :48:06. | :48:10. | |
previous years they have had a level of funding to enable them to make | :48:11. | :48:17. | |
transformational services, and to collaborate with each other at a | :48:18. | :48:20. | |
level we haven't seen before. Have they done that? | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
Some have done it better than others. But I think we all recognise | :48:26. | :48:32. | |
that more needs to be done. This will become a reality now, a | :48:33. | :48:37. | |
new financial year, new council tax bills. Should the burden falls on | :48:38. | :48:44. | |
the taxpayer or the services? It is about striking a balance, it | :48:45. | :48:48. | |
is up to each local authority to set the level that they think is right. | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
We as a government give them the flexibility to do that. I think it | :48:53. | :48:56. | |
is the most accountable thing that a local authority can do for its local | :48:57. | :49:02. | |
population. I am monitoring the budgets, I don't want them to be | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
unreasonable, and I know that they are taking the views of council | :49:07. | :49:10. | |
taxpayers into consideration as they have gone round setting the | :49:11. | :49:14. | |
budgets. I think they are engaging with the public. | :49:15. | :49:18. | |
What is reasonable and unreasonable? We have seen some | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
councils go for the maximum 5% increase. | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
I didn't give them a figure, because I thought I'd give them a figure | :49:29. | :49:31. | |
they would all think that was a figure they could start with. At the | :49:32. | :49:35. | |
moment I am analysing all the increases that are coming in. | :49:36. | :49:40. | |
I don't recall ever seen so many go right up to the limit of 5%. | :49:41. | :49:49. | |
Badlands on your doorstep, and so council taxpayers face higher bills, | :49:50. | :49:55. | |
don't they? It is challenging, of course. But I | :49:56. | :50:02. | |
can only give them what I have. Our budget has been cut so significantly | :50:03. | :50:06. | |
by the UK government, I can only give them what I have, and they can | :50:07. | :50:12. | |
only pass on what they have. So it is really important to look at their | :50:13. | :50:15. | |
council tax, try not to be unreasonable, try not to burden on | :50:16. | :50:18. | |
the taxpayer, and I hope that is what they have done. | :50:19. | :50:24. | |
As taxpayers, surely get used to seeing bigger increases in council | :50:25. | :50:26. | |
tax bills? In Wales, the band D is lower than | :50:27. | :50:33. | |
in England, so we do have a lower level of council tax than England. | :50:34. | :50:38. | |
Even in Scotland's weather has been a council tax freeze since 2007, we | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
are rolling on a par with Scotland. So we do have a significantly lower | :50:43. | :50:50. | |
council tax in Wales. In England money has been made | :50:51. | :50:53. | |
available to freeze or even lower council tax. In some borough 's | :50:54. | :50:58. | |
council tax hasn't cut seven times in the last eight years. What is | :50:59. | :51:02. | |
happening in England that is not happening in Wales were council tax | :51:03. | :51:06. | |
bills are going up? It is not correct to say there is a | :51:07. | :51:10. | |
freeze in England, we now 40 local authorities have had raises in the | :51:11. | :51:16. | |
last year. It is up to each local authority to decide its council tax | :51:17. | :51:19. | |
level. They are accountable to local population. | :51:20. | :51:27. | |
Councils spend a lot of money on hiring senior staff. A report | :51:28. | :51:30. | |
recently showed that Chief Executive pay ranges from around 105,000 to | :51:31. | :51:37. | |
around ?195,000. Or do you make of that? | :51:38. | :51:43. | |
Senior salaries are very much in the news and I notice something the | :51:44. | :51:47. | |
public are rightly interested in. It is up to local authorities to have | :51:48. | :51:53. | |
those statements. It is right that the public can access them and they | :51:54. | :51:56. | |
see how decisions are being taken. When councils are setting senior | :51:57. | :52:02. | |
salary pay, it must be transparent, the public must realise how they | :52:03. | :52:06. | |
have come to that, we have also given against the new appointments | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
over ?100,000 the full council should have the authority to vote on | :52:12. | :52:16. | |
that, and within the recent democracy act, it is right that when | :52:17. | :52:21. | |
they want to be should refer the salary to a remuneration panel. | :52:22. | :52:27. | |
This is the result of a deal between political parties. When will we see | :52:28. | :52:34. | |
the consequences of that? The gains will be issued in April. | :52:35. | :52:45. | |
Chief Executive pay ranges by almost ?100,000, how has that come about? | :52:46. | :52:53. | |
Local authorities are autonomous employers and they said their | :52:54. | :52:57. | |
salaries and statements. Because of the concerns that I raised, many | :52:58. | :53:01. | |
people have written to me about this, I think it is right that local | :53:02. | :53:07. | |
authorities demonstrate how those decisions have been made and the | :53:08. | :53:11. | |
public have access to it. And is important they can see those | :53:12. | :53:18. | |
statements easily. You have commissioned a review into | :53:19. | :53:21. | |
council tax benefit, the scheme that has replaced that, will that money | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
continue into the next financial year? | :53:27. | :53:32. | |
We have to look at it. You will appreciate the UK government | :53:33. | :53:35. | |
completely cut council tax support. We had to pick up the bill. We have | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
been able to protect that for two years. I want a sustainable scheme | :53:40. | :53:43. | |
and we are in partnership with local government. | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
When will you make a decision? Because people are worried that they | :53:48. | :53:51. | |
may get a council tax bill for the first time ever when the scheme | :53:52. | :53:54. | |
ends. We want to avoid that, because we | :53:55. | :53:58. | |
know that some of these people are the most vulnerable in our society. | :53:59. | :54:02. | |
We will conduct a review as soon as possible. | :54:03. | :54:05. | |
No date at the moment? Not at the moment. | :54:06. | :54:08. | |
And BBC Cymru Wales will take a closer look at the finances and | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
services of local councils over the next couple of days. | :54:13. | :54:14. | |
Now, the National Assembly needs more power, including over the | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
police. That's the verdict of the Silk commission which delivered its | :54:19. | :54:24. | |
second report last week. Jubilation three years ago when | :54:25. | :54:29. | |
Wales voted for more devolution. The referendum of 2011 boosted the | :54:30. | :54:35. | |
lawmaking powers of the assembly. It was a resounding Yes vote, albeit on | :54:36. | :54:42. | |
a small turnout. What a contrast to 1997 when the assembly squeaked into | :54:43. | :54:47. | |
existence. Since then, reports and enquiries have asked whether we have | :54:48. | :54:49. | |
the right system of evolution. The latest, the Silk commission, has | :54:50. | :54:54. | |
paved the way to tax and borrowing powers for the Welsh government. It | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
says we should go further still, with youth justice and policing | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
devolved to a bigger assembly with more members. The commission priced | :55:04. | :55:07. | |
offer a sustainable settlement. Have attracted? Or how long will it be | :55:08. | :55:13. | |
before we're back here again asking whether the assembly needs more | :55:14. | :55:14. | |
power? Here to discuss that question and | :55:15. | :55:17. | |
others are Cathy Owens, a former Welsh government special adviser who | :55:18. | :55:20. | |
campaigned for a Yes vote in 2011, and Rachel Banner, who led the No | :55:21. | :55:36. | |
vote. Cathy, the group that Rachel represents one of a slippery slope | :55:37. | :55:39. | |
of more powers and more devolution, they were writes, when they? | :55:40. | :55:45. | |
What they were right about is that this commission will not put aside | :55:46. | :55:49. | |
any discussions about constitutional change. This is not a stable | :55:50. | :55:54. | |
settlement that will last for 30 years we will continually discuss | :55:55. | :56:00. | |
constitutional change. Why is that? Why can't we get it | :56:01. | :56:05. | |
right and put it to bed? Because we are part of a continuum. | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
There is a small number one in the wonderful sensation, there is a | :56:10. | :56:12. | |
small number of the other end of what to get rid of the assembly | :56:13. | :56:15. | |
altogether. Most people are around the middle, only to find a balance, | :56:16. | :56:19. | |
and that might shift over time. There will not be a moment when we | :56:20. | :56:23. | |
don't talk about constitutional matters any more. A lot of people | :56:24. | :56:28. | |
say we have to focus on delivery, and that is absolutely the case. I | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
think this piece of work stands together very well. There are some | :56:33. | :56:37. | |
elements that could be interviews tomorrow without changing very | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
much. It recognises that the settlement is a bit odd and that the | :56:42. | :56:45. | |
UK government has not really grasp it and other organisations could do | :56:46. | :56:51. | |
more. It says that the BBC should recognise Welsh voices a bit more. | :56:52. | :56:58. | |
Rachel Banner, the statement he released when the report came out, | :56:59. | :57:01. | |
you were appalled at the extent of radical changes. Isn't that a bit | :57:02. | :57:09. | |
over the top? If the assembly is responsible for educating children | :57:10. | :57:11. | |
and running hospitals, why not use dusters and police? | :57:12. | :57:16. | |
At the moment we have an economy in crisis, education and health in deep | :57:17. | :57:23. | |
trouble, and would like to see the assembly focusing on that rather | :57:24. | :57:25. | |
than constitutional change. We were told in 2011 that the referendum was | :57:26. | :57:32. | |
about a tidying up exercise, and here we are just two years on, we | :57:33. | :57:36. | |
have the Silk commission which was set up by the UK government in the | :57:37. | :57:42. | |
event of a Yes vote. We were not told of the consequences that we | :57:43. | :57:48. | |
would see talk about devolution of criminal Justice and tax powers. We | :57:49. | :57:53. | |
never had a discussion about that, and here we are, and it is likely to | :57:54. | :57:57. | |
be introduced to manifestoes, not even a second referendum. | :57:58. | :58:02. | |
That is the opportunity to have a debate about the next ages of | :58:03. | :58:08. | |
devolution. With respect, when you set up a group of politicians and | :58:09. | :58:10. | |
the new system there will always be debate about more powers, she do not | :58:11. | :58:15. | |
have expected this? There will never be a proper | :58:16. | :58:19. | |
debate. If there was going to be a debate it would be in 2011. Here we | :58:20. | :58:24. | |
are in 2014 and what we see is comments and promises about the Silk | :58:25. | :58:29. | |
commission recommendations being tucked away in the back of | :58:30. | :58:32. | |
manifestoes. We won't have a proper debate about us, and people of Wales | :58:33. | :58:37. | |
are now seeing radical devolution without a mandate for it. | :58:38. | :58:45. | |
Democratically elected mandates of democratically elected politicians | :58:46. | :58:49. | |
in our present that democracy. That is a bit of an issue, True Wales did | :58:50. | :58:56. | |
lose, and I think we have to respect with the people of Wales are. And I | :58:57. | :59:00. | |
think that the next discussion is around policing because even though | :59:01. | :59:10. | |
you might have an issue on health, and I think that has very good job | :59:11. | :59:13. | |
of seeing some of these figures aren't right, I think most people in | :59:14. | :59:17. | |
Wales will recognise if we are to reconfigure hospitals with a grab | :59:18. | :59:21. | |
somebody in Cardiff working on that and making a decision rather than | :59:22. | :59:26. | |
Jeremy Hunt or Andy Burnham for that matter. | :59:27. | :59:29. | |
The argument that Rachel Banner makes is that the Welsh government | :59:30. | :59:34. | |
hasn't done a very good job with the responsibilities and has now. Is it | :59:35. | :59:37. | |
fair that we should expect the assembly to earn the right for more | :59:38. | :59:40. | |
powers? Not only with the Welsh government | :59:41. | :59:44. | |
disagree with that point of view, but the Welsh government that is | :59:45. | :59:46. | |
represented by the Labour Party keeps getting re-elected in a | :59:47. | :59:52. | |
democratically accountable system. It is wrong to say that nobody | :59:53. | :59:57. | |
agrees with what is going on here. The Welsh government keeps getting | :59:58. | :00:00. | |
re-elected in various different forms, but most people in Wales | :00:01. | :00:06. | |
really do think that health and education should be decided in | :00:07. | :00:09. | |
Wales, and that is an argument that Rachel has lost. | :00:10. | :00:15. | |
No, because I have not argued that health and education should be taken | :00:16. | :00:18. | |
back to Westminster, although there is now an argument about the | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
overview of the NHS. They have done a bad job, the Welsh government, on | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
both of these issues. There is time for it to do better, but it must | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
start looking at those things because there is a crisis. | :00:32. | :00:38. | |
Do you say a blanket no to any more powers, or do you distinguish | :00:39. | :00:40. | |
between some of the things on offer? | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
I would agree with Cathy on the BBC, that there should be a Welsh voice | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
from the BBC which currently is not strong enough. | :00:51. | :00:56. | |
That's not really about the assembly, is it? | :00:57. | :01:03. | |
True Wales would not support further devolution, and there is no mandate | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
for further devolution of crime and policing. It would have to go to | :01:08. | :01:10. | |
referendum. Also tax-raising powers. We argued that a Yes vote | :01:11. | :01:17. | |
would lead to tax-raising powers. The yes campaign have continually | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
said that the referendum was not about these things. | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
I want to move on to the recommendation for more members of | :01:27. | :01:34. | |
the assembly. Will anyone grasp the nettle and say, we have more power, | :01:35. | :01:38. | |
we need more members? Lets not forget that constitutional | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
powers are not devolved. It is something we have to agree as a UK | :01:45. | :01:51. | |
level. If a package is great to change the constitution and we have | :01:52. | :01:53. | |
to scrutinised police and criminal justice, you could argue there needs | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
to be better scrutiny here. Rachel Banner, is that your fair? | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
Yes, that is what we predicted. We don't need more members, we have | :02:04. | :02:09. | |
members who have already lost their responsibilities who could come down | :02:10. | :02:11. | |
to the assembly and help to scrutinise legislation. | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
We're out of time, I'm sorry to say. | :02:16. | :02:16. | |
And that's Now, without further ado, more from | :02:17. | :02:36. | |
our political panel. Iain Martin, what did you make of Iain Duncan | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
Smith's response to the Danny Alexander point I'd put to him? I | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
thought it was a cheekily put response but actually, on Twitter, | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
people have been tweeting while on air that there are lots of examples | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
where the Tories have demanded the raising of the threshold. The 2006 | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
Forsyth tax omission is another example. Helen, on the bigger issue | :02:59. | :03:05. | |
of welfare reforms, is welfare reform, as we head into the | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
election, despite all the criticisms, still a plus for the | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
government? I don't think so. Whatever the opposite of a Midas | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
touch is, Iain Duncan Smith has got it. David Cameron never talks about | :03:19. | :03:24. | |
universal credit any more. The record on personal independence | :03:25. | :03:26. | |
payment, for example... We didn't get onto that. Only one in six of | :03:27. | :03:33. | |
those notes have been paid. A toss pulling out of their condiment has | :03:34. | :03:41. | |
been a nightmare. It's a very big minus point for the Secretary of | :03:42. | :03:44. | |
State. -- Atos pulling out of bed contract. Welfare cuts are an | :03:45. | :03:56. | |
unambiguous point for the government but other points more ambiguous. I | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
don't think it's technical complexity that makes IDS's reform a | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
problem. The IT gets moved out with time. But even if it's in fermented | :04:07. | :04:12. | |
perfectly, what it will achieve has been slightly oversold, I think, and | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
simplified incredibly. All it does is improve incentives to work for | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
one section of the income scale and diminishes it at another. Basically, | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
you are encouraged to go from working zero hours to 16 hours but | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
your incentive to work beyond 16 goes down. That's not because it's a | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
horrendous policy but because in work benefits systems are | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
imperceptible. Most countries do worse than we do. -- benefits | :04:38. | :04:47. | |
systems cannot be perfected. They need to tone down how much this can | :04:48. | :04:50. | |
achieve even if it all goes flawlessly. There are clearly | :04:51. | :04:53. | |
problems, particularly within limitation, but Labour is still wary | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
of welfare reform. -- with implementation. Polls suggest it is | :05:00. | :05:05. | |
rather popular. People may not know what's involved were like the sound | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
of it. I think Janan is right to mark out the differences between | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
welfare cuts and welfare reforms. They are related but distinct. Are | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
we saying cuts are more popular than reform? They clearly are. The | :05:22. | :05:28. | |
numbers, when you present people numbers on benefit reductions, are | :05:29. | :05:36. | |
off the scale. Reform, for the reasons you explored in your | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
interview, is incredibly compensated. What's interesting is | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
that Labour haven't really definitively said what their | :05:46. | :05:51. | |
position is on this. I think they like - despite what they may see in | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
public occasionally - some of what universal credit might produce but | :05:57. | :05:58. | |
they don't want to be associated with it. We probably won't know | :05:59. | :06:06. | |
until if Ed Miliband is Prime Minister precisely what direction | :06:07. | :06:12. | |
Labour will go. Immigration is still a hot topic in Westminster and | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
throughout the country. This new Home Office minister, James | :06:17. | :06:18. | |
Brokenshire, made an intervention. Let's see what he had to say. For | :06:19. | :06:24. | |
too long, the benefits of immigration went to employers who | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
wanted an easy supply of cheap labour or to the wealthy | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
metropolitan elite who wanted cheap tradesmen and services, but not to | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
the ordinary hard-working people of this country. With the result that | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
the Prime Minister and everyone else has to tell us all whether they've | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
now got Portuguese or whatever it is Nanny is. Is this the most | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
cack-handed intervention on an immigration issue in a long list? I | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
think it is and when I saw this being trailed the night before, I | :06:54. | :07:00. | |
worried for him. As soon as a minister of the Crown uses the | :07:01. | :07:02. | |
phrase "wealthy metropolitan elite" more likely we see it in recession. | :07:03. | :07:38. | |
We've just had the worst recession in several decades. It's no small | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
problem but compared to what ministers like James Brokenshire has | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
been saying for the past few years and also the reluctance to issue the | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
report earlier, I thought that, combined with the speech, made it | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
quite a bad week for the department. Was this a cack-handed attempt to | :07:59. | :08:01. | |
appeal to the UKIP voters? I think so and he's predecessor had to leave | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
the job because of having a foreign cleaner. It drew attention to the | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
Tories' biggest problem, the out of touch problem. Most people around | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
the country probably don't have a Portuguese nanny and you've just put | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
a big sign over David Cameron saying, this man can afford a | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
Portuguese Nanny. It is not the finest political operation ever | :08:26. | :08:27. | |
conducted and the speech was definitely given by the Home Office | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
to Number Ten but did Number Ten bother to read it? It was a complete | :08:33. | :08:38. | |
shambles. The basic argument that there is a divide between a wealthy | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
metropolitan elite and large parts of Middle Britain or the rest of the | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
country I think is basically sound. It is but they are on the wrong side | :08:48. | :08:53. | |
of it. What do you mean by that? The Tory government is on the wrong | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
side. This is appealing to UKIP voters and we know that UKIP is | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
appealing to working-class voters who have previously voted Labour and | :09:03. | :09:05. | |
Tory. If you set up that divide, make sure you are on the right side | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
stop When you talk about metropolitan members of the media | :09:12. | :09:14. | |
class, they say that it is rubbish and everyone has a Polish cleaner. | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
No, they don't. I do not have a clean! I don't clean behind the | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
fridge, either! Most people in the country don't have a cleaner. The | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
problem for the Tories on this is, why play that game? You can't | :09:32. | :09:41. | |
out-UKIP UKIP. After two or three years of sustained Tory effort to do | :09:42. | :09:44. | |
that, they will probably finish behind UKIP. Do we really want a | :09:45. | :09:52. | |
political system where it becomes an issue of where your nanny or your | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
cleaner is from, if you've got one? Unless, of course, they're illegal. | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
But Portuguese or Italian or Scottish... And intervention was | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
from Nick Clegg who said his wife was Dutch -- his mum was Dutch and | :10:07. | :10:14. | |
his wife was Spanish. Not communism but who your cleaner is! It's the | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
McCarthy question! Where does your cleaner come from. A lot of people | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
will say are lucky to have a cleaner. I want to move onto selfies | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
but first, on the Nigel Farage - Nick Clegg debate, let's stick with | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
the TV one. Who do you think will win? Nigel Farage. Clegg. He is a | :10:36. | :10:43. | |
surprisingly good in debates and people have forgotten. I think Clegg | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
is going to win. I think Farage has peaked. We're going to keep that on | :10:48. | :10:56. | |
tape as well! Two 214 Clegg there. Selfies. Politicians are attempting | :10:57. | :11:03. | |
to show they're down with the kids. Let's look at some that we've seen | :11:04. | :11:04. | |
in recent days. Why are they doing this, Helen? I'm | :11:05. | :11:51. | |
so embarrassed you call me reading the SNP manifesto, as I do every | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
Saturday! They do it because it makes them seem authentic and that's | :11:57. | :11:59. | |
the big Lie that social media tells you - that you're seeing the real | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
person. You're not, you're seeing a very carefully manicured, more witty | :12:05. | :12:07. | |
person. That doesn't work for politicians. It looks so fake and | :12:08. | :12:14. | |
I'm still suffering the cringe I see every time I see Cameronserious | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
phone face. Does Mr Cameron really think it big Sim up because he's on | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
the phone to President Obama? Obama is not the personality he once was. | :12:25. | :12:33. | |
There is an international crisis in Ukraine - of course we are expecting | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
to be speaking to Obama! And if you were in any doubt about what a man | :12:38. | :12:40. | |
talking on the telephone looks like, here's a photo. I must confess, I | :12:41. | :12:46. | |
didn't take my own selfie. Did your nanny? My father-in-law took it. | :12:47. | :12:53. | |
Where is your father-in-law from? Scotland. Just checking. Janan, I | :12:54. | :13:07. | |
think we've got one of you. The 1%! What a great telephone! Where did | :13:08. | :13:14. | |
you get that telephone? It looks like Wolf Of Wall Street! That's | :13:15. | :13:20. | |
what I go to bed in. It showed how excited Cameron was to be on the | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
phone to Obama. All our politicians think they are living a mini version | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
of US politics. President Obama goes on a big plane and we complain when | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
George Osborne goes first class on first Great Western. They want to be | :13:34. | :13:36. | |
big and important like American politics but it doesn't work. We'll | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
see your top at next week! That's it for this week. Faxed all | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
our guests. The Daily Politics is on all this week at lunchtime on BBC | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
Two. We'll be back here same time, same place next week. Remember, if | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
it's Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics. | :13:57. | :14:01. |