08/06/2014 Sunday Politics Wales

David Cameron slaps down two of his most senior Cabinet ministers

over their public row about Islamist extremism in schools.

And it?s HER special advisor that has to resign.

We'll talk to the Shadow Education Secretary live.

Should this man become the next President of the EU Commission?

David Cameron has staked a lot on stopping Luxembourg Federalist

But could the arch europhile yet get the top job?

Here's to the quarter of a million votes.

And we'll find out why this political party is celebrating with

Later in the programme: success may have cost UKIP two MEPs.

We hear from Peter Hain about his decision to stand down

as the MP for Neath and his views on 15 years of devolution.

Has Boris Johnson deserted the suburbs and become a zone one man?

And with me our panel of top political journalists,

who are always squabbling among themselves, Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee

and Janan Ganesh, who will be tweeting throughout the programme

This morning's political news is dominated

by the very public fall-out of Home Secretary Theresa May and

The high viz blue on blue spat between two senior

Conservatives centred around the Government's approach to tackling

The row burst into the open ahead of the publication tomorrow of

investigations into the so-called Trojan Horse plot in Birmingham,

where it is alleged several state schools have been covertly taken

Mr Gove told The Times last week he was concerned that the Home Office

was unwilling to tackle extremism at its roots.

He said a robust response was needed to drain the swamp.

In response, Mrs May's special advisor tweeted,

"why is the Department for Education wanting to blame other people

Lord knows what more they have overlooked on the subject of the

An angry David Cameron ordered a speedy inquiry.

Last night, Mr Gove apologised to the Prime Minister, while Ms May's

Speaking on the BBC earlier this morning,

this is what Foreign Secretary, William Hague, had to say.

There's been a disciplinary matter within the Government,

which the Prime Minister has dealt with in a very firm, clear way.

There will be discipline in the Government.

The main thing is the issue itself - tackling extremism in schools.

The Government will be very clear, very robust about anything that's

put children at risk - risk to their safety or learning.

Let's look at the positive of this. Theresa May 's people of saying she

has come off worse in theirs. Yelena Kushi is no more guilty than Michael

Gove he was guilty of indiscretion. She is no more guilty. Even during

13 years of new Labour 's psychodrama, I cannot remember an

act of hostility quite as naked as direct as publishing on a website

and intergovernmental letter. It suggests quite a lot of

conservatives do not think they will win next time. Why would there be a

leadership spat going on like this unless they thought there was a

vacancy? Inside the Cabinet, Theresa May is getting quite a bashing. In

the Sunday Times, someone has reported she is the date from hell.

She sidles up to people and is nakedly ambitious. I think that is

interesting. On the whole, nobody will understand the finesse

differences of opinion. It is not serious, it is not serious, it is

tactical. It'll be puzzling for most people and will probably fizzle out.

Has the Prime Minister slapped it down or will it rumble on? On the

politics of it, it will not fizzle out. What you have is Theresa May is

deadly serious about replacing David Cameron, not dislodging him but

replacing him if there is a vacancy. Michael Gove is deadly serious in

ensuring George Osborne succeeds David Cameron. It will be that

ongoing political rivalry. What is really interesting about this is the

Prime Minister is absolutely fed up with both of them. He is fed up with

Michael Gove full-size gearing of message. He had the row with Nick

Clegg and he had a row with Theresa May. He named Charles Barr and

criticised him in a lunch with the times. White brother he is the

Security adviser at the Home Office. -- he is the security advisor. He is

fed up with Theresa May for mounting an unannounced leader bid. What

separates Theresa May from Michael Gove on dealing with extremism? The

view from Michael Gove is that it shows no interest in Islamic

extremism until it manifests in violent form. Theresa May is

criticised for rolling back the programme which the previous Labour

government introduced to do with the previous Labour government

introduced to do with the Home Office has been made by other people

and made when the Home Office was not run by Theresa May but previous

home secretaries, even dating back to the Conservative government in

the 1990s. It is about the laxity of the Government. Michael Gove has

used extraordinary inflammatory language talking about draining the

swamp. I think Theresa May 's view is you can very easily inflamed

those emotions and create many more extremists the process. Michael Gove

would say that his approach is entirely consistent with the speech

the Prime Minister made to the Munich Security conference in 2011

when the Prime Minister talked about how extremists

warp the grape great religion of Islam. The Birmingham school system

is going to be one of the most reported systems in Europe.

Joining me now from Kent is Shadow Education Secretary Tristram Hunt.

Should parents of Birmingham children be worried that some of

their schools are in the grip of an Islamist takeover? I think parents

in Birmingham schools will be very disappointed by the political

infighting going on in the Government. The briefings, the

resignations, the apologies. The real apology that Michael Gove needs

to deliver it to the pupil -- the pupils and parents of Birmingham.

There was a potential threat of radicalisation. He fell to act for

four years. The Labour Party is asking, when did he know the fact

that radicalisation could have been taking place? What has been going on

for the last four years? What we in the Labour Party want to see if much

stronger systems of local oversight and accountability to situations

like this do not arise again. Is there, in your view, if some of the

Birmingham schools, an Islamist takeover? What we have seen in the

leaked Ofsted report so far is fears about cultural isolation and an

overconcentration on Islamic teaching within the curriculum. We

want young people to celebrate their cultural identity, celebrate

themselves as Muslims. We also want them to have an education which

makes them succeed in multicultural 21st-century Birmingham. We want to

be quite tough on moves towards gender segregation, a restricted

curriculum. Birmingham is a multicultural city. We need an

education system which celebrates that. What is wrong with gender

segregation? You went to an all boys school. Where you have gender

segregation, we have had a long tradition in Catholic schooling.

Where you have a state education system, which is about gender

equality between boys and girls, and there is an unofficial policy of

gender segregation, that is unacceptable. We should not be

tarring communities with the same brush in terms of radicalisation. We

do want to see a successful, multicultural education. Two years

ago, Ofsted rated Parkview as outstanding. Now it looks like

tomorrow it is going into special measures. What is it up to? I do

think there is an issue for Ofsted that you can go from outstanding to

inadequate so quickly. That is why we are asking for a new criteria to

be introduced to look at a broad and balanced curriculum. We have healthy

sex and relationship education. There is a real issue this morning

as the BBC has been reporting on the night for the Department of

Education. We are hearing that some of those involved in the schools

were not allowed to open a free school on security grounds. They

were allowed to allow one of the schools to be taken over as an

academy. We have a lack of oversight and accountability in schools within

Birmingham. What the Labour Party wants is a local director of school

standards to make sure we challenge underperformance and make sure we

get in confronting Islamic extremism when it was in power? I was speaking

to Hazel blears and she was very clear about the prevent programme

which they rolled out when in office. A very atomised and

fragmented school system where every school is looked at from behind a

desk in Whitehall and he put that together and you do have an

increased risk of chances of radicalisation. You have attacked Mr

Gove for gross negligence. Was it the same -- you attacked Mr Gove for

gross negligence. We are dealing with a government which has been in

since 2010. The Government needs to hold the executive to account. We

note the Department Michael Gove was warned by a senior and respected

head teacher about fears over radicalism. What did he know and

what did he act upon? We are hearing more reports of conversations about

fears, about radicalisation, taking over some of the governing bodies of

schools. We need to know what ministers did. Let me continue. You

mention the capital to prevent strategy. Was it gross negligence

for Labour to regularly consult a man who once headed a group

dedicated to making Britain an Islamic state and wrote a book about

schools full of Taliban style decrees. I think the events in

Birmingham are enormously significant. About the nature of

multiculturalism, the nature of education, the role of civic

education, the role of faith schools. I will say to you this

morning that Birmingham City Council, Ofsted, the Labour Party,

the Department for Education were all involved in this conversation.

In 2010, ministers were warned about potential radicalisation of schools

and they fell to act. We need to know why, for years on, they allowed

this situation to exacerbate. When you look at the record of labour and

this government 's record, there are plenty of examples where both of you

fail to act. Would it not be better to drop the party politics and get

together to confront this problem for the sake of the children? There

are a number of reports going on in Birmingham. Some are led by the city

council, some by the Department for Education. Labour MPs this morning

have come forward with the Bishop of Birmingham talking about faith in

schools. If you have a minister failing to do their job, if you have

a minister being given warnings in 2010 and failing to act on them for

four years, the opposition has a role to hold the executive to

account. This is about the safety and standards of teaching for pupils

in Birmingham schools. It is about a great education for these young

people so they can succeed in a modern, multicultural Britain. Do

you agree with your Shadow Cabinet colleague, Rachel Reeves, that

Labour' as core voters are abandoning the party? She was

building on what Ed said the day after the elections in Berwick. We

have to make sure those communities who we historically represent regard

Labour as having a successful message for them. I am passionate

about making sure we have great vocational and technical education,

the great academic education in our schools. If we have more work to do

to get people to the polling booths, we must do that. We must

with listen to what she says. David Cameron has staked a lot on

stopping the former PM of Luxembourg - named by one newspaper as 'the

most dangerous man in Europe' because of his federalist views -

from becoming the next president Mr Cameron has reportedly described

Jean Claude Juncker as a 'face from the 80s who cannot solve the

problems of the next five years'. But with the German Chancellor

Angela Merkel publicly backing Mr Juncker, it's not a dead cert that

Mr Cameron can stop his appointment. This is what he had to say at the G7

summit earlier this week: It is important that we have people

running the institutions of Europe who understand the need for change

and reform. I would argue that view is widely shared amongst other heads

of government and heads of state in the European Union. I am clear what

I want to achieve for Britain's future, to secure Britain's placed

in a reformed European Union and I have a strategy for delivering

that, a strategy for dealing with an issue which I think if we walk away

from it would see Britain drift towards the exits.

We've been joined from Berlin by the German MEP Elmar Brok who is

a senior figure in the EPP - that's the party backing Mr Juncker.

He's also Chairman of the Union of European Federalists.

And in our Newcastle newsroom is the former Conservative MEP Martin

Callanan who until last month led the European Conservatives

and Reformists group in Brussels. Welcome to you both.

The United Kingdom, Sweden, Hungary, they don't want Mr Junker, the new

Italian Prime Minister doesn't look keen either, should he bow out

gracefully? First of all, he wants to have Mr Junker but he wants to

have his conditions. Will he become president of the European Council, a

high representative? It is a discussion to be had in the next

three or four weeks until the European Parliament can elect the

president of the European Council after the proposal of the European

Council, which has to be done after consultation with the Parliament in

the light of the European elections and by a majority vote. If not Mr

Junker, then who? There are many available candidates, I am not going

to mention them in front of someone so esteemed as Elmar Brok. Give us

one name that you would prefer? The prime Minister of Sweden, Christine

Lagarde, the minister from Lithuania, these are people who have

a record of old reform. Junker is the ultimate Europe insider. We need

radical inform. We need to respond to the message the electorate gave

us in the elections -- radical reform. Junker said he had to lie in

public, he allowed the security services to conduct a dirty tricks

campaign against his opponent. This is not who we want leading the

European Commission. Elmar Brok, since the European voters have sent

a message to the parliament that they are not happy with the status

quo, why would you want a man who is synonymous with the status quo?

First of all what Martin has said is wrong. He has not done tricks

against his opponents. He was very clear on that. He is also the man

who was always for changes. He made dramatic changes as head of the Euro

group, came out of the economic crisis which was a result of the

financial crisis, made politics possible, to stop this incredible

financial sector influence of our states. I believe he is a man who

works on the programme which Mrs Merkel and others have decided in

Dublin, for the reform of the European Union, less government. But

we need Europe more and he is not a man from the 80s. He is a man of

this century and in this century he made his own policy. He is the

winner of the European elections, he has a majority will stop Mrs

LANguard is not running because she knows she will not get the majority

in the European Parliament. -- Christine Lagarde is not running. It

is the Council of minister is that decides. No, the European Parliament

has the final word. The European Council can make a proposal by

majority in the light of the European elections after

consultation with the European Parliament. The council cannot get a

candidate against the will of the European Parliament. Mr Junker has a

majority in the European Parliament. Theoretically he is right, the

Parliament has do vote on the candidates proposed by the council.

I want to challenge the view that somehow he won the European

elections. There is no provision for Jean Claude Junker to stand in the

elections. He is saying that the EEP party got the most number of seats

in the Parliament but none of the electorate knew they were taking

part in this election. How many people who voted Labour in the

United Kingdom realised that their vote would count towards a German

socialist to be a candidate for the commission of presidency is a

nonsensical proposal. The elections were 28 individual elections with

hundreds of parties across Europe. To try to claim there is a

democratic mandate for somebody nobody has heard from Luxembourg to

take over the commission is a nonsense. People should know him, if

I should say that ironically. Newspapers talking about members of

the family of his wife with Nazi links... What is the answer to

Martin Callinan's point? I think it is clear that British Conservatives

have no candidate because they are not a broad European family, they

have not impacted on the selection of top candidates but it is a form

of isolation of the British Tory Party. The Prime Minister said if Mr

Junker is appointed it could lead to Britain drifting towards the EU

exit, is that credible? Is it melodramatic? It is true that we

want to renegotiate the relationship. We want some serious

reform in Europe so the people who vote in a referendum will be able to

vote to stay in if that is what they want. We need a bold reformer,

somebody prepared to engage. That is not anti the interests of the UK. We

need to recognise there is a problem with public perception of the

European Union. Elmar Brok is proud to be one of the last bastions of

federalism that that is not where most of the public opinion is in

Europe. I understand why he wants his man installed but we need to

take into account the message of the letter -- the electorate. 25% of the

publishing of France were prepared to vote for an openly racist party.

We can't just ignore the signal that the electorate were sending us. If

enthusiasm for federalism was at an all-time low, it would be a slap in

the face for the voters of Europe to have a federalist as the president,

would it not? 70, 80% of the members of the European Parliament, selected

by their people, are pro-Europeans. These are the winners of the

European elections. Even in France, a majority of voters have voted

pro-European and that should be clear, not to make this a populist

thing which is not only to do with Europe. And we want to have a Europe

which is strong, the member states should do their things. We do not

want to have a European centralism, we do not want a European state.

This is not at stake. Let's talk about the question of better

governance, let's talk about what was wrong in the past, we have to

become better, to change our programme in that question. That

should be the way we lead to come to positive results. Thank you for

that. Before we go, there is a British commissioner that needs to

be appointed to Brussels, do you like the sound of that? These are

matters for the Prime Minister, I am sure he has many excellent

candidates. Do you like the sound of it? Like previous British

commissioners, Chris Patten, Neil clinic, I have just lost an election

-- Neil Kinnock for the everybody who is asked would serve, I'm sure.

Just days ago UKIP were celebrating topping the poll in the European

They're claiming they'd have had two more MEPs

and the Greens two fewer had another party not confused the electorate.

What's more UKIP say it's the fault of the body

which was set up to oversee elections - the Electoral Commission

This is a party celebrating success at the European elections. They

didn't win a single MEP but nationally polled 250,000 votes.

They are an independence from Europe, mostly people who were once

in UKIP, and that is rather the point. They may look like capers,

drink like capers, sound like capers -- -- sound like kippers, but they

are not. The name and the logo were displayed on this banner when the

party launched its campaign. UKIP suggest the look, the wording and

the inclusion of UK in now confused voters, and are looking at rewriting

such a wrong. The way that seats are allocated in a European election

under a proportional representation system is using this formula. It was

invented by a Belgian mathematician in 1878 and it is essentially this.

When all of the votes have been tallied up, the one with the most

seats gets the first MEPC in a region. The others are allocated

using votes cast divided by the number of seats gained plus one --

first MEP seat in a region. UKIP were concerned with South West and

London. There they say, when the last MEP seats were being allocated,

if everyone who had voted for an independence from Europe had meant

to vote for UKIP and you tallied their votes up, and added them to

UKIP, UKIP would have been up one in each region and the greens would

have lost them. Whether you can prove that voters did that by

mistake is a very different matter. UKIP may have to just chalk it up to

experience. It has happened before, back in the European elections of

1994. Then in England under the first past the post system. This

man, Richard Huggett, decided to stand as a little Democrat and

polled a significant number of votes. The Liberal Democrat

candidate at the time is now an MP. Many people voted and afterwards

realised that they had bubbly voted for -- probably voted for a little

Democrat, not a Liberal Democrat as they had been intending to do --

bubbly voted for a literal Democrat -- probably voted.

Mr Sanders got some consolation. In 1998, laws came into rule on

so-called spoiler tactics and the Electoral Commission was

established. The Electoral Commission are based on the seventh

floor of this building and they did look into this issue prior to

voting. They have given us a statement that reveals the

conclusion they came to, part of which says, we decided that the name

of the party, and its description are sufficiently different to those

registered by the UK Independence Party, UKIP, to mean, in our

opinion, that voters were not likely to be confused if they appeared on

the same ballot paper. Pretty conclusive stuff. Back at the pub,

were an independence from Europe just being crafty, or do UKIP need

to wake up and smell the flowers? We attack them in all areas. An

independent study for Anglo Netherlands because I was involved

in the Dutch -- with the Dutch member of Parliament and the

description was UK Independence now, nobody has a monopoly on the word

independence. I have been fighting for independence since I started in

1994, before I joined UKIP. The party tell me they will stand again

at the general election next year. The ironies not lost on them or the

major parties of UKIP complaining that a smaller party has been taking

votes of them. Joining me now to discuss

this story is Gawain Towler. He's the UKIP candidate for the

South West region, who failed to get And in our Bristol studios is

the victorious Green MEP for How many of the 23,000 votes that

were cast for the Independence party were meant for you? Impossible to

tell. I want to congratulate Molly for getting elected. They are the

breaks. I do not think there is a purpose in complaining about boats

that are cast. Do you think you would have one otherwise? Yes, I do.

You have to look at the would have one otherwise? Yes, I do.

You have to look boats for parties people have not heard of and those

with a long tradition that people have heard of. I do not think there

is any doubt. If you saw the spoiled ballot papers, the amount of people

who had voted at the top and the bottom, most people are not anoraks,

they say, they are the people I want. They know what they are after.

I think it is at least told. It is said you owe your seat to And

Independence Party. It is strange for a man to say he could represent

people in the south-west better than me. There has been outpouring of

delight that a Green MP has finally been elected. A number of people

have been saying they have been voting all their lives and it is the

first time they have elected anybody. I am glad to represent them

in a significant legislature. What would you say to that? I find it

strange. I am perfectly happy for her to be elected. I feel the

electoral commission has questions to answer. But, congratulations to

Molly. Why do you want an extra seat for the Greens in the European

Parliament but your national share of the vote actually fell. We did

come under pressure nationally. If he is complaining about the role the

election commission said we could stand, the rule we were not happy

with was the off, ruling which said we were not a main party. We got

significantly less media time and that is why our belt actually fell.

Not on the Daily Politics or the Sunday Politics, where you were well

represented. Was it a problem for UKIP in other parts of the country?

Only in London. What do you think happened there? Very much the same.

I do not think there is any doubt, the number of people we have had

getting in touch saying, I am really sorry, I made a mess, that they

voted for the wrong party. They are the breaks. Politics is politics.

What I would like to see and what is reasonable, and I hope Molly would

agree, there needs to be a reform - a serious reform of the Electoral

Commission. There is no appeal process. They say it is not

confusing. Lets see if she thinks that. I make it a policy never to

agree with UKIP. What is important to note, if you look at the votes

and the way the votes fell out and the seats fell out in the

south-west, it is difficult for an Electoral Commission to turn boats

into seats. UKIP got 33% of the vote and 33% of the seats. For them, the

system worked very well in the south-west. Nationally, Greens did

not get represented as the vote share would require. That is because

you get very small number of seats in the different regions and you

have to reach a high threshold. The Green Party has a right to complain

about the level of seats we have ended up with. White rapper you have

complaints about the Electoral Commission? We need to move to a

proportional system for elections generally. If we poll around 7%, 8%,

we should be looking at having 30, 40 seats in the national

legislature. We need to consider proportional representation for

national elections. Do you accept the ballot paper may have confused

some people? I think what happened is that some people in UKIP were

very worried. Worried about the rightward move of UKIP and the

authoritarian leadership of Nigel Farage. He set up a separate party.

That is what happens in politics, particularly when parties are led by

demagogues and are not focused on Democratic policy. Do you have any

legal redress to this? None whatsoever. Have you had legal

advice? I am told there is no redress. We do feel, I am sure Molly

does not agree with UKIP on anything so, if we say the sun rises in the

morning, she probably will disagree with that. If, at the next election,

there is a party called the Grown Party, will she then complain? There

needs to be some level of accountability and, without that,

one wonders what is going on. We have an organisation with enormous

and important power and influence which is setup to stop this of thing

going on. It has failed. Not has it has failed. Not present served in

Tower Hamlets and there have been massive problems with postal votes.

It is failing on almost everything it is supposed to do. Just to go

back for a final point from Molly. Should there be a right of appeal to

the rulings of the Electoral Commission? You need to have an

authoritative body that makes decisions in this area and we have

the Electoral Commission. It is about being sore losers on the part

of UKIP. I am delighted to represent people in the South West. Should

there be a right of appeal or not? You need an authoritative body and

the Electoral Commission is that. I do not think it should have a right

to appeal. We say goodbye to viewers

in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20 minutes,

we'll be discussing extremism Hello,

and on the Sunday Politics Wales: Peter Hain tells us why he's

standing down as the MP for Neath and he joins former Plaid leader

Lord Wigley to look back And was the Queen's Speech the last

stand of the Westminster coalition This week, BBC Cymru Wales

will be measuring devolution. It's 15 years

since the establishment Former Labour Cabinet minister

Peter Hain has been I'll be talking to him later

about his decision to stand down But first,

Bethan Lewis invited Mr Hain and another key figure who campaigned

for devolution to relive the drama. It has suddenly change -- certainly

changed! The Royal Welsh College of music and drama has had a major

face-lift since the night hosted one of the biggest moments in Welsh

history. 0.3% of a victory to the yes campaign. Quite incredible, a

night of absolute high drama. In 1997, Peter Hain was a office

minister. David was also an MP. Were you always confident? No. It was

very frustrating because we had learnt the lessons of 1979 and

therefore, we had to have self denying. There were times we wanted

to campaign. But this was a Labour Party. I was doing a lot of street

work, a lot of campaigning. I remember being really worried about

the Labour heartland votes, whether they would vote yes or at all. The

emotion of that night, I don't think, in political terms, I have

experienced anything quite like that. A different stage to the one

that hosted the referendum drama but this venue will always be linked as

what has or has been seen as a new dawn for Wales. Good morning! And it

is a very good morning in Wales. When the Assembly was established

less than two years later, to live up to the optimism and excitement so

apparent in the early hours of September the 19th, 1997? People had

impossible expectations, in some ways, but my answer to the question,

how has the Assembly done? Imagine what Wales would have been like

without devolution. It would have been the only part of the UK without

devolution as a proud nation. The challenges -- challenge is, how do

you get away from the 1-party rule? If democracy will work, you have got

to have the ability of the electorate making a difference. From

a liberal point of view, it's very difficult to keep renewing yourself

in government. -- a Labour point of view. The thing that has most

disappointed me was the thing I discovered first as a Welsh

Minister: I think the Welsh civil service is one of the most can't

do, rather than can do, of the entire British civil service. I

remember a comment about it very senior civil servant, saying if he

had a problem, he would rather make no decision than the wrong

decision. That sums it up, doesn't it? A disappointment for me has been

the lack of relative progress on Welsh wealth GDP. Whether that's

entirely the Assembly's fort is a big question. On the other hand, the

highs of having distinctive policies, which are more friendly to

people rather than market-driven. I would agree on the comments the

economy. The low for me was when Rhodri Morgan decided to do away

with the Welsh development agency. Awful party signed up to that! It

was great shame that that happened. The plus points: The confidence, a

number of policies, most recently, plastic bags, where England has

followed Wales, but also the fact we are thinking in terms of Wales and

the fact that the people out there would not want to go back to the old

model. That is part of the new confidence that has emerged in

Wales. Let's make a difference. And having a cutting edge and

determination that cutting edge -- second-best is not good enough. It

was a very different kind of drama on that evening, wasn't it? We all

look a lot younger! There we all are, you and I stand next to each

other. It was a pretty ecstatic moment. And then we had a little

chat. I think we are something like, this is fantastic but amazing! It is

debatable whether the reality matched the dream but for those who

were centre stage, there is still great pride in being able to say, I

was there. Peter Hain joins from his Neath

constituency. You announced you would be standing

down at the next election. Why? I was intending to stand and then I

had a series of meetings with Ed Miliband and we discussed other

things I could do while retaining a strong involvement in politics. I

have been in politics all my political life, since I was

supporting my parents in the anti-apartheid struggle in

Pretoria. I think it is absolutely vital for our country that we get

rid of this government and start getting a government that invests in

growth and jobs, not austerity. You make it sound as if Mr Miller band

has another job in mind for you. I am not talking about the future.

That can take care of itself. I am absolutely determined to stay active

in politics and to ensure we win as many MPs as we can at the next

election, not for me, not for Labour, but for the country and

people who I think I been devastated by this covenant -- current

government's politics. If you're not talking about the future, I take it

you do not have a success in mind. Certainly not. That's a matter for

the party. One of the things I thought about when I had this

difficult change, after discussing with Ed, one of the things I thought

about was, I will not stand down late and find the national party in

London determining the Meath party. I live here and will stay living

here and therefore, I have given the party a long time to choose the

person that they think can best carry the Labour banner forward. Did

you give any thought about whether it should be an all women short

list? That again is a matter for the party, not for me. MPs shouldn't

interfere in the succession arrangements. I strongly believe

Wales needs more women representing us in Parliament. I have supported

all women short lists in the past. We have got a situation where

neighbouring constituencies have had all women short lists. This is for

the national party to decide. What matters is the party members in

Meath will make the choice. I wonder how you would respond to you would

respond to your colleagues saying that the party should be having as

many all women short lists as possible. I understand that and she

deserves credit for having pioneered this work in Wales. But this is not

a matter for me. I want to see more women in Parliament but whether my

constituency has an open short list or whether it has got an all women

short list is not a matter for me. That's a matter for the National

party to decide. Whoever the candidate is, I have no doubt you

will be out supporting them in the general election. How confident are

you Labour can win the election with Ed Miliband and the helm? I am very

confident label will be the biggest party in the next Parliament.

Whether we can win an outright majority, it's extremely difficult

to tell. 50 years ago, Labour and the Conservatives dominated. That's

no longer the case. Is that the reason why you are not further ahead

in the polls? A lot of the reason, yes. There is a big anti-politics

movement at the moment. I am very close to the grassroots. There is a

very anti-politics situation presently and I think Ed Miliband is

the person who understands that best because he is trying to change the

party from the traditional party machine, like a has-been, into a

movement rooted in the community. Isn't that a bit of a convenient way

of saying that the reason why we're not doing better is not our fault.

It's not our policy is not our fault. It's not our policies that?

It's very hard, when you have lost so badly, as we did in 2010, two

then bounce back into the massive lead that, for example, Tony Blair

enjoyed. No party will win a landslide. I do not think the Tories

can win the next election. We are very well placed to be the biggest

party and we will fight to get a majority but we are in new political

to rain. Voters are very disillusioned with politicians of

all stripes. -- new political terrain. Different parties also make

different choices. Labour stands for Justice, equality, democracy, human

rights and freedom. I will continue to fight for those values. I see

around me people been badly hit by this government's policies and that

is why I want to fight so hard for Labour to win across Wales and

Britain next time. The Westminster coalition's last

stand or a bold programme to make a Pensioners will have more freedom to

spend their savings, more powers for the Welsh Government

are on track and misbehaving MPs Some of the notable changes

on the way. But politicians are divided over

Wendesday's Queen's Speech, the last There is nothing very controversial

and there. The only thing pretty controversial is the rush for gas,

which will be pretty controversial, and we would be seeking to amend

that to ensure our country has control over its own resources and

any resulting revenue goes to the Welsh government rather than the

Treasury. This speech was concluding the pattern we wanted to reset the

economy and make sure the recovery was being felt right across the

country. That's why the ?10,500 income tax free zone comes into

place next year, that's why we are doing things like resetting the

pensions agenda, making sure we can help small businesses to grow and

develop. We want to make sure people feel that the beginnings of this

recovery are spread out, right across the country.

I'm joined now by Alun Cairns, the Conservative MP for the Vale

of Glamorgan, and Wayne David, the Labour MP for Caerphilly.

This speech included legislation on plastic bags and he rose. Is there a

unifying theme here? This speech is extremely important. It is about

securing the recovery and continuing the long-term economic plan. There

is an infrastructure bill, is small-business bill, a childcare

bill in order to free up people to get back into work, to support

people. We continue to reduce taxes for the lowest earners so that it

will make benefits less friendly for those people because going into work

is more friendly. People have said it is already in place. Absolutely

not. The infrastructure bill, the childcare bill, the pensions Bill is

about continuing the long-term economic plan so that the recovery

we have managed to secure is about ensuring that continues over the

longer term. The pensions Bill is a pretty meaty piece of legislation,

so you can't really accuse the government of having run out of

words. That is the exception. This country, people have a standard of

living and crisis. They are concerned about immigration and the

housing situation. All these major issues are not being addressed by

the Queen's bill. It seems to me that what we have is, as Dennis

Skinner said, the coalition's last stand. This government is running

out of ideas. Surely, one of the mistakes of the last leg -- Labour

government was that you legislated to much. I'd disagree. This

government is not even attempting to tackle problems. They are standing

to one side and saying, very sorry, the coalition is there but we cannot

agree. That is nonsense! If we look at the last two speeches under the

Labour administration, there were fewer bills than this government. It

is not about passing legislation for the sake of it. It's about securing

that long-term economic plan, reducing unemployment. The platelet

count is now down to 4% in my constituency. -- claimant count. Is

there something in common here, in that ministers and Conservative MPs

have got their eyes on the next election and beyond, rather than on

concentrating on the job at hand? This is about party discipline. That

broke down. The Prime Minister has intervened, the Secretary of State

for education has apologised and the Home Secretary's special adviser has

gone. That demonstrate strong leadership from a strong Prime

Minister. It's a Conservative MP. Do you get Cabinet ministers coming to

have a quiet word with you? Absolutely not. The example, Theresa

May extended the licensing laws after they said no. The big picture

is the economy. This is from the IMF: We acknowledge we underestimate

growth. This is the big problem for you. The economy is on the right

track. It is doing better than it is doing better than a a painfully slow

recovery and what concerns me is that we are having a recovery, but

the recovery is not helping the ordinary people of this country. We

are seeing the rich getting richer and ordinary people are not seeing

significant improvements in their standard of living. The tax cuts are

helping the lowest of earners. We have the fastest-growing economy in

the developed world and we should be celebrating that. If there is a cost

of living crisis, this is how to celebrate it. We are only halfway

through that programme. We are seeing the world of the nation going

to the rich. David Cameron said he would leave the -- leave the

greenest government ever. We have got to be clear what the

infrastructure bill does. Making it easier for companies to explore for

gas. This extends the same rights for shale gas extraction as it does

to pipes that have already been laid underground. What is fundamental is

that it has two conform to planning requirements. Planning is a devolved

matter. In the Vale of Glamorgan, because of genuine reasons, the

Labour run Welsh government overawed planning issues. It is about

controlling it through the planning system. In England, the planning

system is far more robust and here in Wales, the Welsh government have

used its mighty arms to overrule this. The UK government is making it

easier for companies to fracture. It is controlled through the planning

mechanism which is devolved. When the Labour administration overawed

those objections, it is concerning and I am alarmed about that because

if we had the same planning regime in England, which will control gas

extraction, the local community would be in a stronger position to

stop it and rejected. Tricky one for Labour as well. Was -- what is its

position? I don't think you should make party political points. Do you

want more of it to happen? It's important to recognise our

legitimate concerns to ensure there is a vigorous planning process

whether devolved or not, and also to make sure we take into account the

energy needs of the country. Don't forget to follow our look

at the impact of devolved politics in our Measuring Devolution week

across all BBC Cymru Wales outlets. For the meantime, though,

it's back now to Andrew. Is enough being done to

tackle extremism in schools? Will Mr Cameron stopped Mr Junker,

will make we are joined by the founder of the

Quilliam Association. If you read the Sunday Telegraph this morning,

there is a real problem. If you read the Observer, there is not much of a

problem. What is the situation in your view in Birmingham? Allegations

are seen to be -- if music was not being taught as it should be.

Instead of the rating the national holidays here during the Christmas

period, children were sent off instead on religious pilgrimage to

Mecca, then I think something is going on. From my knowledge, I know

about some of the strategies to influence. These strategies are

known as gradualism. The idea, like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is

to join the institutions of society and influence from within -- from

within. It is a gradual approach to Islamicisation society. We have seen

that happening in other areas, such as the decision by the Law Society

to call it shy and issue it out as guidance for solicitors. They are

saying this means that women inherit half of what men

saying this means that women inherit and adopted children do not get any

inheritance. Apostates do not get any inheritance. These are

guidelines being issued by the Law Society by Islamic. It is a medieval

take on Islam. That is what is meant. We see the same names popping

up again and again in different situations in Birmingham. Is it a

planned infiltration? In my profession of you and

planned infiltration? In my profession of you having spent 13

years on the leadership of an Islamist organisation, having been

involved Islamist organisation, having been

and setting up schools, I am very Islamist organisation, having been

certain is a deliberate plan to influence the students of this

country with a medieval interpretation of my own faith to

bring about a medieval, conservative view, and enforce things like

segregation on boys and girls within our public institutions. With these

things be acceptable if they were explicitly they schools? If they

were state. We had state Anglican faith schools. We have state

Catholic faith schools as well. Would it be acceptable if these were

state Islamic schools? That is a policy question. I am not generally

in favour. I would believe in this establishment. I am not a fan of

faith schools. I do think the solution is to ban them. I do think

these schools should start working out with an engaging with the wider

communities and not being insular and looking inwards. It is very

important. The Ofsted report is coming out tomorrow. We have already

had a taste about what it is saying about some of the schools. Is it a

serious problem? It is a very serious problem. It comes from the

segregation of children into intensely populated areas where

everyone is Muslim virtually. You have to have a system of spreading

children between schools. It very often happens, even with a secular

school like this. Nearby Catholic or Church of England schools become

like-for-like schools and that leaves the rest of the state schools

to become all of one faith. I think all of the parties are being quite

hypocritical about the profound problem of continuing to have faith

schools. You have Orthodox Jewish schools with extraordinary dogma

being taught. Indeed very strict Catholic schools with amazing dogma

being taught. To somehow only get worried when it is Islamic, when it

is Muslim schools, becomes a problem. You have to look at the

whole issue and said the state should simply withdraw from the

business of faith education. Like France? Yes, a secular school. The

overall government policy is to take power away. The dilemma with that is

that it comes with dangers. Some schools will be incompetent and some

schools will be more than incompetent, they will be maligned

in some respects. The one bit of this policy which has never been

entirely squared is how do you devolve and retain a basic minimum

of educational standards and behavioural standards while doing

it? There is an even deeper quandary for Britain. We have prided

ourselves on allowing radical views that stop short of violence. We took

on Karl Marx and the rest of Europe would not have him. The rest of

Europe could not believe how tolerably well of radical preachers

in the 1990s. Do we stick with that view? The risks were greater than

they were 100 years ago. We do expect, whatever peoples faith, that

our children, at the expense of the taxpayer, are educated, not

instructed, not indoctrinated, educated. We do expect that and also

that boys and girls are treated equally. One of the things the board

in Birmingham will be looking at which has Andrew Mitchell on it, the

former development Secretary, because he is a Birmingham MP full

Sutton, they are really concerned about whether the girls are being

treated as second-class citizens. There has been a lot of work done on

empowerment of girls. Shirley Williams made the point that what

Michael Gove has done by creating free schools and academies is

undermined the work of local education authorities. They think

they are traditional bodies which are not open to reform. One school

in Birmingham which is accused of being in trouble is a local

education school. They cannot have the other side. Under Michael Gove,

they are answerable to the Secretary of State. It is down to Ofsted.

Ofsted is giving the schools, not that long ago, outstanding marks.

There are big questions about the oversight of schools. Tristan Hunt

was trying to answer that point. By tapping it cannot all have gone pear

shaped in two years. How do you think that will play out? -- it

cannot have gone pear shaped. The story was broken in February. It

will keep playing out. The report that was due out Ofsted is tomorrow

or Monday. Then there is the other report that will look into wider

questions, that will come out in July, I think. We are expecting two

points. -- reports. We have to look at questions of Ofsted and other

institutions in our society, even government departments, where idea

of taxing non-violent extremism became a too boot in this country.

-- a taboo. They must be rebuffed the challenge, as we would expect

racism to be challenged. In the argument between Michael Gove and

Theresa May, where do you side? They should be challenged openly and

robust leap by civilian society. It was settled by the Prime Minister

and is government policy. I had a hand in advising or consulting. I

think Fiona Cunningham was forced to resign because what she did violates

official government policy. It just has not been implemented yet. Will

Mr Cameron succeed with Juncke? You'll agree he have to decide

whether he will spirit at stopping him or accepting him as commission

president and ask in return for a massive commission portfolio for

Britain, something like the internal market, which they missed out on

last time. It is a diplomatic decision he have to make. It is too

late for that he is into deep. If he takes over the job, Cameron is left

with egg on its face. From the beginning, he did not have his voice

with the weight of the British Conservative Party, with ankle and

Arkle, the rest of them. He is reaping -- Angela Merkel, the rest

of them. He is reaping that reward. There is a lot of support within

Europe. In Germany, there was a lot of opposition to David Cameron

getting his way. I know him from Brussels. He is entertaining, you go

to dinner with him and he smokes and drinks. He is entertaining but he is

the most awful person you could think of having trying to sort of

symbolise a new European Union. I remember I was there join the

Luxembourg presidency in 2005 when the voters in France and the

Netherlands voted no to the European constitution, what was his response

to that? Let's carry on with the ratification process of this treaty

that has been comprehensively rejected by voters. He did not say

the final bit of that sentence. You can see why Eurosceptics want him.

He has blown a raspy at all the people who have protested at the

elections with the way the European Union is going. -- blown a Rasberry.

This is your most popular... What has come in most recently is doing

really well. This is yours. There we go. Cheers! By our people so

cynical? They always go for a drink at 11am and they pull their own

pipes. I see them every day. -- pts. Is there anything Mr Clegg can do is

to mark the idea is to define clearly a liberal brand, or at least

I hope it is. It is not good enough for us to say the Liberal Democrats

challenge the Tories on this, on the fairer society, and challenge the

Labour Party on a strong economy. We need to define what we stand for.

That is what I call a liberal brand, assertive liberalism. I have been

there myself and I think that is what he will be speaking about.

Standing up for liberal values, to finding -- defining what they are.

Disestablishment in getting younger people re-engage with politics. The

overwhelming number are actually liberal. We only have about 20

seconds. I suggest to you it is too late. Sign up with the one principle

on which he stood is Europe. -- the one principle on which he stood if

Europe. That is why he has been doing so badly. He cannot get out of

the hole he is in. If you fight three general elections to the left

of Labour and on the third when you are in coalition with the Tories,

you have got a problem. I will be back next week. Remember if it is

Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics. What's the hardest thing

about being a foster parent?