23/04/2017 Sunday Politics Wales


23/04/2017

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It's Sunday afternoon - this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:35.:00:38.

Jeremy Corbyn wants to give everyone in Britain four

:00:39.:00:41.

extra bank holidays - but is the Labour leader up

:00:42.:00:44.

to being Prime Minister if he wins the election in just

:00:45.:00:46.

Theresa May says she wants a stronger hand to deliver Brexit -

:00:47.:00:52.

how will the Conservatives go about getting the bigger

:00:53.:00:54.

I'll be asking Party Chairman, Patrick McLoughlin.

:00:55.:01:01.

And I've been in Paris where voters are going to the polls in first

:01:02.:01:05.

round of the French Presidential election - what could be the impact

:01:06.:01:09.

on the EU and Brexit of this most unpredictable of contests?

:01:10.:01:13.

Later in the programme: For the first time since

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the election was called, the leaders of the five main

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parties in Wales will be here live to tell me why

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Will the Remain majority punish the Tories for the decision?

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Or feel they may not like it but the Tories

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And with me has always ready for the marathon task of covering a snap

:01:26.:01:39.

general election, even working on bank holidays, the best and

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brightest political panel in the business. David Wooding, Polly

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Toynbee and Toby Young. So Labour's big announcement this

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morning was a crowd pleaser. Four more rainy bank

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holidays to enjoy - one for each of the patron saints

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of England, Scotland, But Mr Corbyn probably won't be

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getting the time off work if he wins And on The Andrew Marr Show this

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morning he was asked what he would do as Prime Minister

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if the security services asked him to authorise a drone strike

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on the leader of Islamic State. What I'd tell them is,

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give me the information you've got, tell me how accurate that is,

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tell me what you I'm asking you about decisions you

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would take as Prime Minister. Can I take you back

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to the whole point? Is the objective

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to start more strikes that may kill many innocent

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people, as has happened? Do you think killing

:02:33.:02:34.

the leader of Isis would be I think the leader of Isis not

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being around would be helpful, and I'm no supporter or defender

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in any way of Isis. But I would also argue that

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the bombing campaign has killed a of whom were virtually prisoners of

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Isis. So you've got to think

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about these things. Mr Corbyn earlier. David, is his

:02:56.:03:02.

reply refreshing damaging? It is damaging. He has clearly been

:03:03.:03:06.

freaked to the fire already in the first week, there will be lots of

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questions on his suitability as a leader and the damage it could cause

:03:12.:03:14.

to our national security over the weeks ahead and Andrew Marr has cut

:03:15.:03:18.

straight to the chase here. The other thing, of course, is the

:03:19.:03:21.

letters of last resort, one of the first duties of a Prime Minister

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when he walks into No 10 is to sign these letters on his own, on or --

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or on her own in a room, a very lonely moment, to decide whether he

:03:31.:03:34.

should press the nuclear button and that goes in the Vanguard submarines

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and is opened in the event of a strike and he has dodged a question

:03:38.:03:41.

so many times. One must wonder what he would do that. He has to make

:03:42.:03:45.

these decisions as Prime Minister. On the Isis point, refreshing or

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damaging? It sure is his base, the people who support him, that's the

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sort of thing they support info and maybe his tactic is that's all he's

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going to get, that is what the polls seem to suggest, in which case they

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will be pleased, and say yes, the man is a man for these who doesn't

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press buttons and shoot people down. But if you want to win you have to

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deal with your own weaknesses and reach out to other people. I think

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most people would say that's not somebody who could defend the

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country. I wonder if he was being totally honest in saying he would

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consider it he would ask for more information. He has previously been

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on the record as being against drone strikes in principle, he's

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campaigned against them, he wants to abolish drones. I think Andrew Marr

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let him off saying it was a drone strike rather than a Navy SEAL or

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SAS operation and he had the fact that they could be collateral

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damage. We that's not his position because he condemned the

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assassination of Osama Bin Laden even though there was no collateral

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damage. David is right on the Trident point, he fetched the

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question. We heard Niall Griffiths on this very show saying Trident,

:04:57.:05:02.

the renewal of Trident, would be in the next Labour Party manifesto. It

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turns out now we don't know and when he was asked he said that remains to

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be seen, his re-opened a can of worms. What he has said about

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Trident which was extraordinary was, we will rebuild the submarines but

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not have any nukes on them which is expensive and useless. And of course

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the Labour Party were forced soon after that interview to put out a

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statement saying it is Labour Party policy to renew Trident. So where

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are we? Do we know what the party's policy is? It is to renew Trident

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but he has started this review which involves looking at it all again. We

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know he is a unilateralist to start with but whether he can force this

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through is dubious. Does it matter, though, if the party policy is in

:05:45.:05:48.

favour of Trident, if the leader is not? The potential Prime Minister is

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not? They split three ways when they went to vote on it in the Commons.

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The party agreed they were pro-Trident and when it came to the

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vote they split three ways. I think it's difficult for them, it's always

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been a really difficult issue for Labour. The question is whether you

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want to seal off your negatives, whether you really want to try and

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reach out to people. There are an awful lot of people who will like

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what he said, there are an awful lot of people that think we have been

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involved in terrible wars, we have wasted a lot of money and blood and

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let's just get back from the whole thing, let's retreat from the world

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and not try punching above our weight. There is something to be

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said for that and it is a reasonable argument. He's been true to himself

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on this. I think he is and Polly is right, lots of people will agree

:06:38.:06:40.

with him, not enough to win a general election, the latest ComRes

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poll shows Tories on 50% and Labour on 25 and as my colleague James

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Forsyth in the Spectator said if this was a boxing match it would

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have been stopped by now by the revelry. We are not stopping, we are

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going on. So the political parties have had

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to move into election mode Stand by for battle buses,

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mail shots and your social media timeline being bombarded

:06:57.:07:00.

by political propoganda. But none of this comes cheap -

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Adam's been doing his sums. Democracy is priceless but those

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planes, trains and automobiles used in the last election cost money

:07:08.:07:12.

and we know exactly how much, thanks to the Electoral

:07:13.:07:15.

Commission database. The Conservatives flew David Cameron

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to every part of the UK in one day on a private plane costing ?29,000,

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in-flight meals extra. They shelled out ?1.2 million

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for adverts on Facebook. The most expensive item was their

:07:31.:07:36.

election guru Lynton Crosby. They bought ?2.4 million worth

:07:37.:07:40.

of advice and research from his firm Labour's biggest expenditure

:07:41.:07:43.

was on good old-fashioned leaflets, costing ?7.4 million

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to print and deliver. Hope they didn't go straight

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into the recycling. Cheap for all the

:07:54.:07:58.

enjoyment it gave us. To turn a normal minibus

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into Harriet Harman's pink bus Nick Clegg toured the country doing

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all manner of stunts transported although the party got a grand's

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discount when it broke down. Ukip's then leader Nigel Farage

:08:17.:08:28.

was accompanied by bodyguards Nicola Sturgeon's chopper

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cost the SNP ?35,450. Plaid Cymru spent just over

:08:31.:08:39.

?1,000 on media training And the Greens spent ?6,912

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promoting their tweets. It adds up to a grand total

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for all the parties of ?37,560,039. Jabbing at my calculator that works

:08:58.:09:01.

out at less than ?1 per voter. Adam Fleming there -

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and joining me now is the man responsible for the Conservative

:09:08.:09:12.

election campaigns - for the locals next month

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and the general election in June - Welcome to the programme. The Crown

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Prosecution Service is reviewing evidence from 14 police forces that

:09:25.:09:27.

your party breached election spending rules on multiple occasions

:09:28.:09:32.

in the last election. What are you going to do differently this time?

:09:33.:09:38.

Well, the battle buses are part of the National campaign spend. You saw

:09:39.:09:44.

them just on the shot that you did, all three parties had those battle

:09:45.:09:47.

buses so that's why we believe they were part of the national spend and

:09:48.:09:51.

it was declared that way. At least 30 people in your party, MPs and

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agents, being investigated because they may not have been right to

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include it in the national spend. Are you saying you are going to do

:10:00.:10:02.

nothing differently this time? You asked me about last time and the way

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the position is... Was. I asked you about this time. We will take a

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careful count and make sure that everything that we do is within the

:10:14.:10:20.

law. But as I say, the last election, all three parties had

:10:21.:10:23.

battle buses. It is your party that above all has been investigated by

:10:24.:10:28.

14 police forces. You must surely be taking stock of that and working out

:10:29.:10:33.

how to do some things differently. You are being investigated because

:10:34.:10:37.

you put stuff on the National Ledger which should have been on the local

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constituency ledger. Are you looking at that again? All of the parties

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had battle buses and they all put them on their national spend. I

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don't think any of the parties put them on the local spend. The other

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battle buses were not full of their party activists. Your party stuffed

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these battle buses with activists and took them to constituencies.

:10:57.:11:02.

That's the difference. And I ask again, what is different this time?

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Are you going to run the risk of being investigated yet again? We

:11:07.:11:10.

believe that we fully compliant with the electoral law as it was. What

:11:11.:11:15.

will happen if one of these, or two or three or four or five of these 30

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people, Tory MPs, or agents running campaigns are charged during the

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campaign? As I say I believe we properly declared our election

:11:27.:11:30.

expenses. What happens if they are charged? You asking me a

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hypothetical question, the importance of this election is about

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who is in Downing Street in seven weeks' time. Let me clarify this,

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you maintain that in 2015 you did nothing wrong with how you allocated

:11:42.:11:45.

the cost and the activities of the battle buses and you would do

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exactly the same this time round? What we did at the last election we

:11:48.:11:52.

believe fully complied with the law. So the battle buses this time,

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stocked full of activists, will still be charged to the national

:11:59.:12:01.

campaign even when they go to local constituencies? Will they? We will

:12:02.:12:09.

be looking at the way we do it, there is new guidance from the

:12:10.:12:13.

Electoral Commission out and we will look at that guidance. It is not the

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guidance, it is the lawful stop the Electoral Commission said that, if

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you look at the report they did on us, they said there was one area

:12:22.:12:24.

where we had over claimed, over declared, and another area we had

:12:25.:12:28.

and declared. We haven't worked out what to do

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yet, have you? We will get on with the campaign and

:12:32.:12:35.

start the campaign and I'm looking forward to the campaign.

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I'm trying to work out of the campaign is going to be legal or not

:12:38.:12:41.

because last time it seems it could have been illegal.

:12:42.:12:45.

I am sure the campaign will be legal.

:12:46.:12:46.

You started the campaign warning about the prospect of, the coalition

:12:47.:12:51.

of chaos. Mr Corbyn has ruled out a post-election coalition with the SNP

:12:52.:12:59.

and so have the Lib Dems so who is going to be in this coalition?

:13:00.:13:02.

Vince Cable said he was looking towards a possible coalition trying

:13:03.:13:04.

to stop a Conservative government. Is not the leader of the Lib Dems.

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He's an important voice in the Lib Dems. Who will be in it? Let's see

:13:08.:13:13.

because of the Conservative Party is not re-elected with a strong

:13:14.:13:16.

majority, what will happen? There will be a coalition stopping us

:13:17.:13:19.

doing the things we need to do. Who will be in it? It will be a

:13:20.:13:24.

coalition of the Labour Party, the SNP and the Liberal party. They have

:13:25.:13:28.

ruled it out. I think they would not rule it out if that was the

:13:29.:13:31.

situation. Like Theresa May not ruling out an election and then

:13:32.:13:35.

changing her mind? The things the Prime Minister said were very clear,

:13:36.:13:39.

once she had served Article 50 there was an opportunity, as we know

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today, there is going to be the start of a new government formed in

:13:44.:13:47.

France and in September we have the German elections. So it was quite

:13:48.:13:50.

right that we didn't get ourselves boxed into a timetable. That is why

:13:51.:13:56.

the Prime Minister took the view that they should be a general

:13:57.:14:00.

election to give her full strength of an electoral mandate when it

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comes to those negotiations. What about Mr Corbyn's plan for four new

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bank holidays, good idea? I'm not... If we get Corbyn in No 10 Downing St

:14:11.:14:14.

we will have a permanent bank holiday of the United Kingdom. We

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will have fewer bank holidays of most other major nations, most about

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major wealthy nations. What about at least one more? Well, look, he's

:14:26.:14:28.

talked about four bank holidays. Today would be a bank holiday and

:14:29.:14:33.

next Monday would be a bank holiday and the other week was a bank

:14:34.:14:37.

holiday too. I don't think it's very well thought out. It sounded more to

:14:38.:14:41.

me something like you get in school mock elections rather than proper

:14:42.:14:45.

elections. Your party is the self-styled party of the workers and

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you have no plans to give the workers even one extra bank holiday?

:14:49.:14:52.

What we want to do is ensure Britain is a strong economy and building on

:14:53.:14:57.

the jobs that we have created since 2010. We were told that by reducing

:14:58.:15:01.

public expenditure unemployment in this country would go up,

:15:02.:15:06.

unemployment has gone down and the number of jobs have gone up

:15:07.:15:11.

substantially. But no more bank holidays? Well, we will make our

:15:12.:15:14.

manifesto in due course but I don't think four bank holidays held in

:15:15.:15:18.

April, March and November are very attractive to people. When Ed

:15:19.:15:24.

Miliband as leader of the Labour Party suggested the government

:15:25.:15:33.

should control energy prices by capping them, the Conservatives

:15:34.:15:37.

described that as almost Communist and central planning. Do still take

:15:38.:15:41.

that view? You'll see what we have to say on energy prices. I didn't

:15:42.:15:45.

you about that, I asked you if you take the view... The Prime Minister

:15:46.:15:50.

made a speech at the Conservative Spring conference in which she

:15:51.:15:52.

outlined her dissatisfaction about people who are kept locked on a

:15:53.:15:55.

standard tariff and those are the issues we will address in the next

:15:56.:15:58.

few weeks when the manifesto was published.

:15:59.:16:03.

Would that be an act of communism? You will need to see what we say

:16:04.:16:09.

when we set out the policies. It could be. You could put a Communist

:16:10.:16:16.

act into your manifesto? I don't think you'll find a Communist

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manifesto in a Conservative manifesto which will be launched...

:16:21.:16:24.

You are planning to control prices? We will address what we think is

:16:25.:16:28.

unfairness in the energy market. Mr Jeremy Corbyn was reluctant this

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morning to sanction a drone strike. You heard us talking about it

:16:33.:16:39.

earlier against the leader of Islamic State if our intelligence

:16:40.:16:42.

services identified him. What would it achieve? When the Prime Minister

:16:43.:16:47.

gets certain advice in the national interests, she has to act been that.

:16:48.:16:51.

We've seen with Theresa May in her time as Home Secretary and Prime

:16:52.:16:54.

Minister, she's not afraid to take those very difficult decisions. What

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we say this morning from Jeremy Corbyn was a his tans, a reluctance.

:16:59.:17:03.

I don't think that serves the country well. What would it achieve

:17:04.:17:10.

if we take out the head of Islamic State he's replaced by somebody

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else. It brings their organisation into difficulties. It undermines

:17:15.:17:19.

their organisation. It shows we'll take every measure to undo an

:17:20.:17:23.

organisation which has organised terrorism in different parts of

:17:24.:17:27.

Europe, the UK. I think it is absolutely right the Prime Minister

:17:28.:17:29.

is prepared to take those kind of measures. Jeremy Corbyn said he

:17:30.:17:34.

wasn't prepared to take that. Because he wasn't sure what it would

:17:35.:17:40.

achieve. The Obama administration launched hundreds of drone strikes

:17:41.:17:44.

in various war zones and we in the west are still under attack on a

:17:45.:17:50.

regular basis. Mr Corbyn's basis was what would it achieve? It would

:17:51.:17:56.

achieve a safer position for the UK overall. The war on terrorists. But

:17:57.:18:00.

the Westminster attack, Paris has just been attacked again? There's

:18:01.:18:06.

been attacks which have been stopped by the intelligence services. We

:18:07.:18:10.

must do all we can to support them. The question was about drone

:18:11.:18:14.

strikes. Whether it is drone strikes or other action, we have to be

:18:15.:18:18.

prepared to act. Let's move on to Brexit. It is the major reason the

:18:19.:18:22.

Prime Minister's called the election? Not the only within but

:18:23.:18:26.

the main reason? It is one of the reasons. Now we start the two-year

:18:27.:18:30.

negotiations and then a year afterwards. Also the way in which

:18:31.:18:36.

certain people said they would try to use in the House of Lords or

:18:37.:18:38.

House of Commons to prevent us making progress. I think you'll put

:18:39.:18:46.

in your manifesto, it is the Government's policy, the Brexit

:18:47.:18:51.

negotiating position will be no more freedom of movement. Leave the

:18:52.:18:58.

single market and no longer under the jurisdiction Europe. You expect

:18:59.:19:02.

every Tory MP to fight on that manifesto. What will you do with Ken

:19:03.:19:08.

Clarke and Anna? They will have fought on their manifesto. They will

:19:09.:19:12.

understand the Prime Minister has the authority of the ballot box

:19:13.:19:15.

behind them. Will they fight the election on these positions? I'm

:19:16.:19:20.

sure they'll fight the election supporting the election of a

:19:21.:19:25.

Conservative Government and it's manifesto will quite clearly set

:19:26.:19:28.

out... You know they're against these positions. Ken Clarke has a

:19:29.:19:33.

prod tradition of expressing a certain view. Overall, the party's

:19:34.:19:38.

manifesto, it is not just individuals like Ken Clarke, it is

:19:39.:19:41.

what happens as far as the House of Lords are concerned, people said

:19:42.:19:46.

they'd use the House of Lords to prevent certain measures. You're the

:19:47.:19:50.

party chairman, will it be possible for people like Ken Clarke to fight

:19:51.:19:55.

this election under the Conservative ticket without sub describing to all

:19:56.:20:00.

-- subscribing to all of these Brexit conditions? Ken Clarke will

:20:01.:20:06.

fight as Conservative candidates. That wasn't my question. I know

:20:07.:20:10.

that. Will they be allowed to fight it on their own ticket and not

:20:11.:20:14.

subscribe to what is in your manifesto? The manifesto will be

:20:15.:20:18.

what the Conservative Party fights the General Election on. There will

:20:19.:20:23.

always be cases where people have had different views on different

:20:24.:20:28.

parts of the manifesto. That will be the guiding principles for the

:20:29.:20:34.

party. Philip Hammond says your election promises in 2015, in your

:20:35.:20:39.

manifesto not to raise taxes tied his hands when it came to managing

:20:40.:20:43.

the economy. Do you agree with him? No. The simple fact is we have to do

:20:44.:20:48.

the best things for the economy. We'll set out in our manifesto in a

:20:49.:20:53.

few weeks' time, what the policies will be for the next Parliament. Can

:20:54.:20:58.

I clarify, you don't agree with your Chancellor? What Philip was saying

:20:59.:21:03.

was some of the areas we wants to address as Chancellor, what the

:21:04.:21:08.

party will do, it will set out all the issues we're fighting on. It

:21:09.:21:11.

will set out clearly the choice we have in this country. That's the

:21:12.:21:15.

important thing. Let me put the question to you again. Philip

:21:16.:21:20.

Hammond said this week your election promise in 2015 not to raise taxes

:21:21.:21:24.

had tied his hands when it came to managing the economy. I ask you, do

:21:25.:21:29.

you agree with him? You said no. Philip expressed his view as to what

:21:30.:21:34.

he would like. What I'm saying is in a few weeks' time we'll set the

:21:35.:21:39.

manifesto which will set the policies, agreed with the the

:21:40.:21:43.

Cabinet. He's Chancellor. Doesn't he determine what the economic part of

:21:44.:21:47.

the manifesto is? We'll talk about that in due course. Will you have a

:21:48.:21:52.

lock on the taxes that you locked in 2015 on income tax, VAT, national

:21:53.:21:58.

insurance? That will be decided. You'll see that when we publish the

:21:59.:22:05.

manifesto in a few weeks' time. Will you rule out the possibility taxes

:22:06.:22:08.

may have to rise under a future Conservative Party? Conservative

:22:09.:22:13.

Government. We've taken four million people out of tax. Now, on average,

:22:14.:22:19.

people are paying ?1200 less tax than they were on the same salaries

:22:20.:22:25.

in 2010. I'm very provide of that. I can assure you, the Conservative

:22:26.:22:28.

Party will want to see taxes reduced. It is the Labour Party

:22:29.:22:31.

which will put up taxes. We have the evidence where this he did so.

:22:32.:22:37.

Council tax went up by over 100%. You haven't reduced the tax burden

:22:38.:22:43.

as a percentage of the GDP is now going to reach its highest level

:22:44.:22:49.

since the mid-180s which was when Conservatives were in power. The tax

:22:50.:22:54.

burden in this country under your Government is rising? We've more

:22:55.:22:57.

people paying taxes which is something, because we've a growing

:22:58.:23:00.

economy and more people... What about the tax band? You said you

:23:01.:23:05.

reduced the tax burden on your own Government's figures is rising? We

:23:06.:23:11.

have reduced the tax burden. The threshold at which people start

:23:12.:23:16.

paying. These are tax rates not the tax burden. It is rising. The tax

:23:17.:23:21.

rates have been reduced. You said tax burden. Perhaps I misspoke. Tax

:23:22.:23:26.

rates have been reduced. We'll leave it there. No doubt we'll speak again

:23:27.:23:35.

between now and June Is France now about to make it

:23:36.:23:36.

a hat-trick of shocks The prospect terrifies

:23:37.:23:40.

the governing elite in Paris. But they're no less scared

:23:41.:23:44.

in Brussels and Berlin, given what it could mean

:23:45.:23:46.

for the whole EU project, never mind the huge potential impact

:23:47.:23:48.

on our own Brexit negotiations. 11 candidates are contesting

:23:49.:24:08.

the first round of the presidential Only the top two will go forward

:24:09.:24:10.

to the run-off on May 7th. For the first time since General De

:24:11.:24:16.

Gaulle created the fifth Republic in 1958, it's perfectly possible that

:24:17.:24:21.

no candidate from the ruling parties of the centre-left or the

:24:22.:24:25.

centre-right will even make it The election has been dominated by

:24:26.:24:28.

the hard right in the shape of the who's never been elected

:24:29.:24:36.

to anything and only started his own party

:24:37.:24:42.

a few months ago. And the far left in the form

:24:43.:24:45.

of Jean-Luc Melenchon, a former Trotskyite who has surged

:24:46.:24:48.

in the final weeks of the campaign. The only candidate left from the

:24:49.:24:51.

traditional governing parties is the centre-right's

:24:52.:24:55.

Francois Fillon and he's been struggling to stay in

:24:56.:24:57.

the race ever since it was revealed that his Welsh wife was being paid

:24:58.:25:01.

at generous public expense for a job I've just come across

:25:02.:25:06.

this magazine cover and it kind of sums up the mood

:25:07.:25:21.

of the French people. It's got the five main candidates

:25:22.:25:24.

for President here but it calls them the biggest liar, the biggest cheat,

:25:25.:25:27.

the biggest traitor, the most paranoid, the biggest demagogue,

:25:28.:25:30.

and it says they are the winners The four leading candidates,

:25:31.:25:33.

Le Pen, Melenchon, Macron and Fillon, or in with a chance

:25:34.:25:43.

of making it to the second round. Only a couple of points separates

:25:44.:25:46.

them in the polls, Frankly, no one has a clue what's

:25:47.:25:49.

going to happen. Of the four, there is a feeling that

:25:50.:25:55.

two of them may be President But the two of them may not find

:25:56.:26:00.

themselves in the second round. Somebody said to me that the man or

:26:01.:26:13.

woman on the Paris Metro has as much a chance of knowing

:26:14.:26:27.

who will win as the greatest experts Because the more expert you are

:26:28.:26:30.

the more you may be wrong. The country has largely

:26:31.:26:37.

stagnated for over a decade. One in ten are unemployed,

:26:38.:26:42.

one in four if you are unlucky Like Britain in the '70s there is

:26:43.:26:45.

the pervasive stench There are three keywords that come

:26:46.:26:49.

to mind. Anger, anger at the elite, and in

:26:50.:26:57.

particular the political elite. And an element of

:26:58.:27:03.

nostalgia for the past. These three words were decisive

:27:04.:27:09.

in the Brexit referendum. They are decisive in

:27:10.:27:13.

the French election. Identity and security has been

:27:14.:27:25.

as important in this election France is a proud nation, it worries

:27:26.:27:28.

about its future in Europe It seems bereft of ideas about how

:27:29.:27:35.

to deal with its largely Muslim migrant population, huge chunks of

:27:36.:27:40.

which are increasingly divorced It is quite simply exhausted by

:27:41.:27:43.

the never-ending Islamist terrorist attacks, the latest only days before

:27:44.:27:54.

voting in the iconic heart of this If Fillon or Macron emerge

:27:55.:27:57.

victorious then there will be continuity of sorts, though Fillon

:27:58.:28:09.

will struggle to implement his Thatcherite agenda and Macron will

:28:10.:28:12.

not be able to count on the support of the French parliament, the

:28:13.:28:16.

National Assembly, for his reforms. But if it's Le Pen or Jean-Luc

:28:17.:28:19.

Melenchon then all bets are off. Both are hardline French

:28:20.:28:25.

nationalists, anti the euro, anti the European Union, anti-fiscal

:28:26.:28:28.

discipline, anti the market, Either in the Elysee Palace

:28:29.:28:32.

would represent an existential Brexit would simply become

:28:33.:28:40.

a sideshow, the negotiations could just peter out as Brussels

:28:41.:28:50.

and Berlin had bigger fish to fry. We're joined now from

:28:51.:28:54.

Paris by the journalist 8th Welcome to the programme.

:28:55.:29:05.

Overshadowing the voting today was yet another appalling terrorist

:29:06.:29:09.

attack in Paris on Thursday night. Do we have any indications of how

:29:10.:29:16.

that's playing into the election? That initially people thought this

:29:17.:29:20.

has been almost foiled in that the police were there as a ramp up. One

:29:21.:29:25.

policeman was killed. But the terrorist did not spray the crowd

:29:26.:29:29.

with bullets. It was seen as not having much of an effect on the

:29:30.:29:35.

election. This has changed. We now know the policeman who was killed, a

:29:36.:29:41.

young man about to the promoted, he was at the Bataclan the night of the

:29:42.:29:47.

terror attack. He was a fighter for LGBT rights. The fact he was

:29:48.:29:53.

promoted, happy within his job, he has this fresh face. Sudden, he's

:29:54.:30:00.

one of us. It took perhaps 48 hours for the French to process this. But

:30:01.:30:06.

now they're angry and this may actually change the game, at least

:30:07.:30:11.

at the margins. To whose advantage? I would say the two who might

:30:12.:30:18.

benefit from this are Marine Le Pen, she's been absolutely

:30:19.:30:22.

anti-immigration, anti-anything. And made no bones about it as she

:30:23.:30:27.

immediately made rather strange announcement in which she'd said if

:30:28.:30:30.

she'd been president none of the terror attacks which happened in

:30:31.:30:35.

France would have happened. Francois Fillon has written a book two years

:30:36.:30:42.

ago called Combating Islamic Terrorism he's has an organised plan

:30:43.:30:47.

in his manifesto. Unlike Emmanuel Macron who stumbled when he was

:30:48.:30:51.

asked the evening this happened what he thought, he said, I can't dream

:30:52.:30:55.

up an anti-terror programme overnight. The question, of course,

:30:56.:30:59.

that arrows was this is not the sort of thing that's just happened

:31:00.:31:02.

overnight. It's been unfortunately the fate of France for many years.

:31:03.:31:08.

Let me ask you this finally, what ever the outcome on May 7th in the

:31:09.:31:13.

second round, who ever wins, would it be fair to say French politics

:31:14.:31:19.

will never be the same again? Yes. Absolutely it's a very strange

:31:20.:31:22.

thing. People have no become really excited about this. You cannot go

:31:23.:31:27.

anywhere without people discussing heatedly this election. The anger

:31:28.:31:31.

that was described is very accurate. Very true. There was this feeling as

:31:32.:31:38.

for the Brexit voters and the Trump voters, vast parts of the people

:31:39.:31:42.

were being talked down to by people who despised them. This has to

:31:43.:31:48.

change. If it doesn't change, we cannot predict what the future will

:31:49.:31:54.

be. We'll know the results or at least the ex-the Poll London time

:31:55.:31:59.

tonight at 8.00pm. Thank for joining us from the glorious heart of your

:32:00.:32:00.

city. Now, the Green Party currently has

:32:01.:32:04.

one MP and they'll be contesting many more seats in June

:32:05.:32:07.

as well as hoping to increase their presence on councils in

:32:08.:32:10.

the local elections on 4th May. Launching their campaign

:32:11.:32:13.

on Thursday, co-leader Caroline Lucas made

:32:14.:32:14.

a pitch to younger voters. When it comes to young

:32:15.:32:16.

people they've been But one crucial way they've been

:32:17.:32:18.

betrayed is by what this generation and this government and the previous

:32:19.:32:24.

ones have been doing when it comes We know we had the hottest year

:32:25.:32:27.

on record last year, you know, you almost think what else does

:32:28.:32:31.

the environment need to be doing All the signs are there

:32:32.:32:34.

and it is young people who are going to be bearing

:32:35.:32:38.

the brunt of a wrecked environment and that's why it's so important

:32:39.:32:40.

that when we come to making that pitch to, yes, the country at large

:32:41.:32:44.

but to young people in particular, I think climate change,

:32:45.:32:47.

the environment, looking after our precious resources,

:32:48.:32:49.

has to be up there. And I'm joined now by the Green

:32:50.:32:54.

MEP, Molly Scott Cato. Welcome back to the programme.

:32:55.:33:08.

Promised to scrap university tuition fees, increase NHS funding, rollback

:33:09.:33:11.

cuts to local councils spending, how much would that cost and how would

:33:12.:33:15.

you pay for it? Like the other parties we haven't got a costed

:33:16.:33:18.

manifesto yet, it's only a few days since the election was announced so

:33:19.:33:22.

I will come back and explain the figures. You don't know? Like every

:33:23.:33:26.

party we have not produced accosted manifesto yet, we produced one last

:33:27.:33:31.

time but public spending figures have changed so we're not in a

:33:32.:33:34.

position to do that but we will be in a week or so. What taxes would

:33:35.:33:40.

you like to consider raising? We would consider having higher taxes

:33:41.:33:43.

for the better off in society. I think we need to increase the amount

:33:44.:33:49.

of tax wealthier people pay. How do you define better off? I'm not

:33:50.:33:51.

entirely clear what the precise number would be but I think 100,000

:33:52.:33:58.

people would pay a bit more, 150,000 quite considerably more but the real

:33:59.:34:01.

focus needs to be on companies avoiding paying taxes. I work on

:34:02.:34:05.

that a lot in my role in the European Parliament, we see an

:34:06.:34:08.

enormous amount of tax avoidance by companies moving profits from

:34:09.:34:11.

country to country and we need European corporation to make that

:34:12.:34:14.

successful. It has not made much difference yet. We have made lots of

:34:15.:34:20.

changes. Google turned over $1 billion and only paid 25 million in

:34:21.:34:24.

taxes last year. There was a significant fine introduced by the

:34:25.:34:29.

competition commission on Apple and in the case of Google we must change

:34:30.:34:33.

the laws so that people cannot move profits from country to country.

:34:34.:34:38.

Everybody wants to do it. But you couldn't face a big spending

:34:39.:34:41.

programme on the ability to do that. You'd have to increase other taxes.

:34:42.:34:45.

If you look at the cost of free student tuition, tuition fees and

:34:46.:34:48.

also maintenance grants to students, that would come in at about 10

:34:49.:34:52.

billion a year. One way of paying for that would be to remove the

:34:53.:34:56.

upper threshold on National Insurance, bringing in 20 billion a

:34:57.:34:59.

year, that's the order of magnitude we are talking about. It is not

:35:00.:35:03.

vast, and some of the proposals we have... That would be an increase on

:35:04.:35:08.

the better of tax? National Insurance on people earning...

:35:09.:35:14.

People earning above 42,000. You would have another 10% tax above

:35:15.:35:19.

42,000? I can't remember exactly how much the National Insurance rate

:35:20.:35:24.

changes by. But in government figures it would be 28 billion

:35:25.:35:28.

raised. I think it is up to 45, a bit more you pay a marginal rate of

:35:29.:35:32.

40%, you would have them pay a marginal rate of over 50%? We would

:35:33.:35:37.

put the National Insurance rate on higher incomes the same as it is on

:35:38.:35:41.

lower incomes. If you are a school head of an English department on 50,

:35:42.:35:45.

60,000 a year you would face a marginal rate under U of over 50%?

:35:46.:35:50.

It is not useful to do this as a mental maths exercise but if you

:35:51.:35:55.

look at other proposals would could have a landlord licensing system,

:35:56.:35:59.

longer term leases on properties, so young people particularly, but also

:36:00.:36:02.

older people who rent, could have more security which needn't cost

:36:03.:36:06.

anything. We could insist on landlords paying for that. The

:36:07.:36:10.

mental arithmetic seems clear but we will come back to that. How is the

:36:11.:36:14.

Progressive Alliance coming? It is going well, I have heard of a lot of

:36:15.:36:18.

interest at local level. Winterset this in contest, context, lots of

:36:19.:36:23.

progressives are concerned about the crisis in public services, prisons,

:36:24.:36:28.

social care system, and also about the Tories' hard extreme Brexit they

:36:29.:36:31.

are threatening. You want the left to come together? Theresa May has

:36:32.:36:36.

given us opportunity, she has taken a risk because she has problems with

:36:37.:36:39.

backbenchers, she doesn't think she can get through Brexit with a small

:36:40.:36:43.

majority so there is an opportunity and we are saying progressives must

:36:44.:36:46.

come together to corporate, Conservatives are effective at using

:36:47.:36:49.

the first-past-the-post system and we have to become effective as well.

:36:50.:36:54.

Do you accept this Progressive Alliance cannot become the

:36:55.:36:57.

government and Mr Corbyn is the Prime Minister? How could it happen

:36:58.:37:02.

otherwise? I think that is a secondary question. For me the

:37:03.:37:05.

primary question is who do people choose to vote for? Aluminium

:37:06.:37:08.

government afterwards comes after the election. In most countries that

:37:09.:37:12.

is the case. I understand that but we have the system we have and you

:37:13.:37:15.

accept this Progressive Alliance cannot be in power and thus mystical

:37:16.:37:19.

Burmese Prime Minister? Personally I think Mr Corbyn is less of a threat

:37:20.:37:23.

to the country than Theresa May, she has shown herself to be an

:37:24.:37:25.

authoritarian leader and she has said she doesn't want to have

:37:26.:37:32.

dissidents, which I would say is reasonable opposition, and what we

:37:33.:37:34.

are suggesting at the moment is there is a way of avoiding that very

:37:35.:37:37.

hard Brexit and damage to public services. You'd be happy to pay the

:37:38.:37:39.

price of having Mr Corbyn as Prime Minister? I do not see that as a

:37:40.:37:44.

price. People have the choice of Jeremy Corbyn or Theresa May as

:37:45.:37:48.

Prime Minister, that's the system that works. You would prefer Mr

:37:49.:37:52.

Corbyn? I would but votes are translated into seats and the

:37:53.:37:55.

Progressive Alliance is a step towards that.

:37:56.:38:07.

Hello and welcome once again to Sunday Politics Wales.

:38:08.:38:09.

Well, Theresa May's snap election caught almost everyone

:38:10.:38:11.

in the political world off guard, but now it's all systems

:38:12.:38:14.

In a few moments, the Welsh party leaders will go head

:38:15.:38:28.

to head for the first time since the election was called.

:38:29.:38:30.

Mark Williams who leads the Welsh Liberal Democrats

:38:31.:38:32.

is in Aberystwyth, and here with me in studio

:38:33.:38:34.

the Welsh Labour Leader, Carwyn Jones, Andrew RT Davies

:38:35.:38:36.

the Welsh Conservative leader is here, along with the leader

:38:37.:38:39.

of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood, and Ukip's leader in

:38:40.:38:41.

But after the initial excitement what's

:38:42.:38:44.

We sent our reporter, Cemlyn Davies, straight

:38:45.:38:46.

to Downing Street to find out - but it might not be the one

:38:47.:38:50.

Yes, welcome to Downing Street in Newport.

:38:51.:39:07.

It may not be quite as glamorous as its Westminster namesake,

:39:08.:39:11.

there aren't any fancy gates or gangs of photographers

:39:12.:39:15.

waiting to snap the locals, but in a few weeks' time,

:39:16.:39:18.

the people who live here will have power to wield when they vote

:39:19.:39:21.

This street is in one of 25 Welsh Parliamentary seats

:39:22.:39:26.

The Conservatives have 11, following their best general

:39:27.:39:33.

election showing in Wales in a generation two years ago.

:39:34.:39:35.

The Liberal Democrats have one Welsh seat.

:39:36.:39:41.

So, what are the parties' chances this time around?

:39:42.:39:45.

A swing to the Conservatives will actually mean a good six

:39:46.:39:49.

or seven Labour seats are very much at risk.

:39:50.:39:51.

So for Labour it is very much a defensive job,

:39:52.:39:53.

they are trying to keep hold of the seats they've already got.

:39:54.:39:56.

Plaid Cymru might go for a few seats, they might throw

:39:57.:39:58.

It's quite a big win for them, they've only got three MPs

:39:59.:40:03.

in Parliament at the moment, if they can get a few more,

:40:04.:40:05.

The Conservatives will probably capitalise on the bits of Wales,

:40:06.:40:09.

particularly those that voted Leaving the referendum.

:40:10.:40:11.

Now they can say, well, we delivered the referendum for you,

:40:12.:40:17.

we've delivered Article 50, now vote for us to

:40:18.:40:19.

The Lib Dems lost two Welsh MPs in 2015 and, last year,

:40:20.:40:23.

the party was left with just one Assembly Member.

:40:24.:40:25.

I think it's #LibDemFightback all the way.

:40:26.:40:30.

The Lib Dems are very optimistic about this.

:40:31.:40:34.

They have selected candidates already, unlike any other party,

:40:35.:40:36.

The Lib Dems were the only ones that were anticipating a snap election.

:40:37.:40:40.

They are standing in local elections as well, so, like all parties,

:40:41.:40:45.

I think they will be seeking to stand candidates.

:40:46.:40:48.

Whether they are successful, it is difficult.

:40:49.:40:53.

They mostly claimed third place in 2015, even at their peak.

:40:54.:40:55.

With Labour struggling in the polls, the other parties are all

:40:56.:40:58.

Several seats are seemingly up for grabs.

:40:59.:41:02.

There are good seven or eight seats that are quite

:41:03.:41:04.

For Labour, they have to worry about Delyn,

:41:05.:41:07.

We've also got Anglesey, we've got only a 200

:41:08.:41:11.

Last time, Plaid Cymru very nearly took it.

:41:12.:41:17.

They do have the assembly seat as well.

:41:18.:41:18.

I think that will be a particularly interesting one

:41:19.:41:20.

But it is still very much all to play for.

:41:21.:41:25.

Theresa May's decision to call a snap election means voters

:41:26.:41:27.

here and across Wales will be asked to go to the polls for

:41:28.:41:30.

the fifth time in two years on the 8th of June.

:41:31.:41:33.

I've been looking forward to it, I wanted Theresa May to have a good

:41:34.:41:39.

majority in the Houses of Parliament so she can push through with Brexit.

:41:40.:41:46.

And do you think that's what's going to happen now?

:41:47.:41:49.

For an ex-Labour supporter, it's hard for me to really say that.

:41:50.:41:57.

I'm glad, the country needs sorting at the moment.

:41:58.:41:59.

The poor are getting poorer, the rich are getting richer.

:42:00.:42:06.

I'm not sure at the moment, but it won't be Conservative.

:42:07.:42:13.

Labour, what do you make of Jeremy Corbyn?

:42:14.:42:16.

That seems to be a big issue at the moment?

:42:17.:42:19.

He's making a lot more sense than the Conservatives at the moment.

:42:20.:42:24.

All 40 sitting Welsh MPs are standing again.

:42:25.:42:27.

They all know that this campaign will be dominated by Brexit,

:42:28.:42:30.

but they'll have to be ready to discuss other issues, too.

:42:31.:42:33.

Considering this is the only election for five years,

:42:34.:42:36.

although people will be voting on Brexit, and they will be voting

:42:37.:42:39.

on how negotiations go - they might be voting on hard Brexit

:42:40.:42:42.

or soft Brexit - I think a lot of people in Wales,

:42:43.:42:44.

they will be voting on the usual issues that people worry

:42:45.:42:47.

They will be voting on the economy, they will be voting on if they think

:42:48.:42:52.

their wages are getting better or not.

:42:53.:42:54.

They will be voting on the Health Service,

:42:55.:42:55.

Even though those are devolved issues, of course?

:42:56.:42:59.

Even though they are devolved issues, the UK parties

:43:00.:43:01.

are going to be campaigning on these pledges.

:43:02.:43:03.

On this street, and across the country, there are decisions

:43:04.:43:05.

to be made, votes to be won, to determine who occupies Number 10

:43:06.:43:08.

Good to see 10 Downing Street, keeping up with their recycling.

:43:09.:43:25.

There are challenges for the parties, but what will they be

:43:26.:43:28.

offering? Let's find out for the next 35 minutes or so. Carwyn Jones,

:43:29.:43:35.

you are a senior Labour politician. What is the party position on

:43:36.:43:39.

Trident? In favour of renewing it, quite clearly. In the manifesto? I

:43:40.:43:43.

don't run the manifesto, but has been clear today it will be in the

:43:44.:43:49.

manifesto. We need to make sure that the world disarms multilaterally.

:43:50.:43:53.

Defence is hugely important. But it is not just about the nuclear

:43:54.:43:57.

deterrent, it is about making sure we have sufficient capacity in the

:43:58.:44:01.

defence forces to provide security. A nuclear deterrent only works if

:44:02.:44:06.

you have a Prime Minister that says they will use it, and he says it

:44:07.:44:09.

won't? That is true, if you are Prime Minister, you have to quite

:44:10.:44:15.

often look at the possible as you're taking difficult decisions. Nobody

:44:16.:44:17.

wants to take that decision, but if you have a deterrent, it is

:44:18.:44:23.

unfortunate that you have to say you cannot rule out using it. You said

:44:24.:44:28.

recently that the party has a mountain to climb in the general

:44:29.:44:32.

election. That seems to be an understatement? It is true, no point

:44:33.:44:35.

pretending otherwise. But the mountains are there to be climbed,

:44:36.:44:39.

to be conquered. It is important that people are able to hear what we

:44:40.:44:42.

are saying, that we want a fair deal for Wales. We have had seven years

:44:43.:44:46.

of austerity. We were told it would sort things out, balance the books,

:44:47.:44:50.

there is no end to it. We need some hope, a party with vision, and we

:44:51.:44:56.

need a change in Westminster. Your party, the Shadow Chancellor said

:44:57.:45:00.

?500 billion more borrowing to give the economy a bit of a boost. You

:45:01.:45:02.

would go with Yes. There has never been a better time

:45:03.:45:12.

to borrow. A Labour government came in after the war when things were

:45:13.:45:17.

much worse, and yet it created the NHS, it made sure the economy was

:45:18.:45:20.

rebuilt, it built houses. All of these things were done at a far more

:45:21.:45:24.

difficult time. If they could do it, there is no reason a Labour

:45:25.:45:29.

government cannot do it after June. Coming into 2010, all of the

:45:30.:45:34.

political problems you got into because of so-called excess

:45:35.:45:36.

borrowing, you're not concerned about that? It was a world problem.

:45:37.:45:41.

On the 9th of August 2007, the stock market started to crash and it was a

:45:42.:45:45.

problem for all governments, not just the UK. It was a Labour

:45:46.:45:47.

government that made sure that the banks did not collapse, things were

:45:48.:45:53.

not left to get worse and worse. If it wasn't for the action Gordon

:45:54.:45:56.

Brown took, things would have been far worse. Andrew RT Davies, going

:45:57.:46:02.

into the 2015 general election, David Cameron was clear there was a

:46:03.:46:07.

tax block, a promise of no increase in VAT, income tax or national

:46:08.:46:11.

insurance. Should Theresa May have a similar promise going into this

:46:12.:46:15.

election? We are the party of low taxation. A promise, rule it out? We

:46:16.:46:21.

get it, if people are incentivised to go out to work, and agree to give

:46:22.:46:26.

a fair amount over, they will work harder to get on in life. If the

:46:27.:46:31.

government loads the tax system against it, they will not put the

:46:32.:46:34.

timing, they will not make the opportunities, entrepreneurs will

:46:35.:46:37.

not invest and you will see a contraction. We are the low tax

:46:38.:46:42.

party and we stand on that record. We are also about making sure that

:46:43.:46:46.

public finances are in good health. You can only borrow if people have

:46:47.:46:49.

confidence that you can repay the borrowing, when you look at Labour's

:46:50.:46:56.

commitment to ?500 billion, which the Prime Minister just endorsed,

:46:57.:46:59.

you can suddenly see the financial markets running a mile from the UK.

:47:00.:47:05.

So, cast iron, you think there should be a promise ruling out any

:47:06.:47:10.

sort of tax increases? We will see what the commitments are in the

:47:11.:47:12.

manifesto. I am saying that the Conservatives are the party of low

:47:13.:47:18.

taxation. So rule it out? What we would be doing is making sure we

:47:19.:47:20.

build on the strong credentials of the first seven years we have been

:47:21.:47:23.

in government, where 4 million people do not pay tax because they

:47:24.:47:28.

have been taken out of that. 31 million-plus people are in

:47:29.:47:37.

employment make sure we safeguard the interests of the vulnerable in

:47:38.:47:39.

society by continuing to grow the economy. That is what this election

:47:40.:47:42.

is about. It is about giving Theresa May the mandate to continue to build

:47:43.:47:44.

the economy, build Britain and negotiate Brexit. You are not ruling

:47:45.:47:50.

out raising taxes, Theresa May will not rule it out, either. That will

:47:51.:47:54.

lead to confusion? It will not lead to confusion, we are the party of

:47:55.:47:58.

low taxation. The manifesto will be coming forward on May the tenth, and

:47:59.:48:02.

people will be able to read it. The election was only called last

:48:03.:48:05.

Tuesday. As the part of low taxation, we want to make sure that

:48:06.:48:11.

the taxation system is fair and it allows entrepreneurs to invest,

:48:12.:48:14.

workers keep a fair share of income and we continue on the strong

:48:15.:48:17.

economic part we have built up. I guess the truth of the election is

:48:18.:48:21.

that it will be a battle along normal party political lines between

:48:22.:48:24.

the Conservatives and Labour. Is it difficult for you to get your voice

:48:25.:48:29.

heard? I would be concerned if you are right on that point, because

:48:30.:48:32.

Wales faces grave threats at the moment. There is a real job of work

:48:33.:48:37.

to do to defend Wales. We are under threat from an extreme Tory Brexit,

:48:38.:48:42.

which risks pulling us out of the single market. That risks many jobs

:48:43.:48:47.

in Wales. As well as the future of public services, and continued cuts,

:48:48.:48:52.

people face a downturn in their economic outlook. On top of that, we

:48:53.:48:57.

have the potential of a power grab from Westminster, where the powers

:48:58.:49:05.

that will be given by Brussels will not come back to Cardiff. The Tories

:49:06.:49:10.

will grab them for themselves in Westminster. So, Wales needs a team

:49:11.:49:16.

of MPs with a strong voice, defending Wales. We have an

:49:17.:49:20.

opportunity to provide that in this election. Will you be part of that

:49:21.:49:24.

team? I have a big decision to make over the next couple of days. I

:49:25.:49:28.

think, as I have said, the very nature of our country is in the

:49:29.:49:34.

balance now. So it is a no-brainer? If Scotland becomes independent, we

:49:35.:49:37.

risk becoming part of some England and Wales entity, and our voice

:49:38.:49:42.

within that structure risks being very, very small indeed. We do need

:49:43.:49:46.

a very strong team of MPs in Westminster. That is why I am

:49:47.:49:51.

actively considering it. We also need a strong team in the national

:49:52.:49:55.

assembly, and the election in 2021 is an opportunity for Plaid Cymru to

:49:56.:49:58.

form a government. That is something to bear in mind as well. Your

:49:59.:50:03.

colleagues in the assembly, are they capable of running their own

:50:04.:50:06.

affairs, having a leadership battle, having a First Minister, it isn't

:50:07.:50:11.

your time and effort best pursued in Westminster? These are the issues I

:50:12.:50:17.

am actively weighing up. You have had a few days? The Labour MP for

:50:18.:50:21.

the Rhondda is in a very vulnerable situation. He is constantly

:50:22.:50:26.

attacking his leader. The party is riven with divisions and people can

:50:27.:50:30.

see that. He has an appalling expenses record. I think we can win

:50:31.:50:32.

there with a number of different candidates. I think we are in for a

:50:33.:50:38.

very interesting election, in a number of seats throughout Wales,

:50:39.:50:41.

not least in the valleys, where people are still very desperate for

:50:42.:50:46.

change. Neal Hamilton, we have been talking about whether Leanne Wood

:50:47.:50:48.

would stand, your leader was refusing to refer to back row

:50:49.:50:53.

confirm if he was standing, surely the leader of Ukip us to stand in a

:50:54.:50:58.

general election? He may well do. It is not for me to advise him. I

:50:59.:51:03.

intend to be a candidate myself, to give a lead, because elections for

:51:04.:51:06.

Ukip our work in progress, always. One leads to another. We are still

:51:07.:51:12.

building our support base. This is going to be an important

:51:13.:51:15.

opportunity. Is the problem for Ukip, what can you offer a voter

:51:16.:51:20.

that they can't get from the Tories right now? This election is not

:51:21.:51:23.

about electing a government, that is done and dusted, we know what it is

:51:24.:51:28.

going to be. This is about electing an effective opposition. The best

:51:29.:51:31.

opportunity to leave Bracco opposition to the Conservatives is

:51:32.:51:34.

one that forces them to get the best Brexit deal possible for Britain,

:51:35.:51:39.

deliver on promises on immigration and many other things. We have other

:51:40.:51:43.

policies, like drastically reducing the foreign aid budget and putting

:51:44.:51:47.

it into the Health Service, scrapping green taxes on energy,

:51:48.:51:51.

which would reduce the average household electricity bill by ?300 a

:51:52.:51:56.

year. But those are fiddling around the edges. On the main issues of the

:51:57.:52:03.

day, there is a fag paper between you and the Tories? I don't know

:52:04.:52:07.

what you mean by the main issues of the day, Theresa May was a Remain in

:52:08.:52:13.

pain. A lot of Conservative MPs were Remain campaigners. Ukip is,

:52:14.:52:16.

unambiguously, the only party that supported Brexit. We are the guard

:52:17.:52:25.

dogs of that process. Mark Williams, last, but not least, I guess the big

:52:26.:52:31.

challenge for you once again will be to be a party that stands for

:52:32.:52:33.

something other than so-called standing up for those that voted to

:52:34.:52:38.

remain? We're going to stand for the whole of the country, the whole of

:52:39.:52:41.

Wales. There are huge issues at stake on the European issue. You are

:52:42.:52:46.

right, the tone of the discussion we have had so far, there are other

:52:47.:52:50.

issues which the Tory party must be challenged on. We did not mention

:52:51.:52:57.

the triple lock on pensions. We talk about vulnerable people, there is a

:52:58.:53:00.

group of people there that are very vulnerable, very concerned over what

:53:01.:53:04.

is being sad. Of course, the Prime Minister was very clear what this

:53:05.:53:11.

election was about. It is about Brexit, it is essential she doesn't

:53:12.:53:14.

get her way when she talks about the country being united, which it

:53:15.:53:18.

isn't, the need to have a compliant House of Commons that will give her

:53:19.:53:22.

a blank cheque to do what she chooses, with dire implications,

:53:23.:53:24.

particularly on the issue of the single market, particularly on the

:53:25.:53:27.

issues of what is there to replace subsidies for farmers, a structural

:53:28.:53:35.

fund regime, and concern that the powers currently exercised by the

:53:36.:53:38.

European Union will not find their way in Whitehall, when I have to

:53:39.:53:42.

vote for them, when they should be decided in the National Assembly.

:53:43.:53:45.

These are critical times and critical issues that need to be

:53:46.:54:04.

decided. Andrew Davies I have been waiting for a long time. It is

:54:05.:54:10.

important that people have clear choices. Not be threatened like they

:54:11.:54:14.

were at the last general election. Let's look at the opinion polls and

:54:15.:54:19.

be realistic. Theresa May called this election because she wants to

:54:20.:54:24.

kick Labour Party down even further. We're not going to have a coalition

:54:25.:54:30.

government but it is important the stores of all parties are clearer

:54:31.:54:40.

what is at stake. Andrew, one of the points raised, the only reason

:54:41.:54:43.

Theresa May has held this election is because she thinks she can

:54:44.:54:47.

thought the opposition. She was saying outside Downing Street she is

:54:48.:54:50.

doing it for the good of the country and needs to have a clear set of

:54:51.:54:55.

proposals. Where has there been any difficulty in her Brexit Road? She

:54:56.:55:00.

was clear on Tuesday why she is going to the country. The arithmetic

:55:01.:55:04.

of the House of Commons is challenging. The country is going to

:55:05.:55:11.

get it say on June eight. What is interesting from Mark Williams when

:55:12.:55:15.

he talks about no coalitions with Labour or the Conservatives, many in

:55:16.:55:21.

2010 remember when they said no to tuition fees and within a couple of

:55:22.:55:25.

months, they brought their men. Now she clearly outlined that she was

:55:26.:55:33.

doing it with a heavy heart. You believe that? She was very

:55:34.:55:40.

articulate. People at my her courage to go to the country. We take

:55:41.:55:46.

nothing for granted and as was Conservatives, will have to fight

:55:47.:55:52.

every seat, every square root of battle ground. As we go forward,

:55:53.:55:55.

what people are voting for is for a strong confident leadership of

:55:56.:56:02.

Jeremy -- of Theresa May rather than the confusion of Germany cordon --

:56:03.:56:12.

Jeremy Corbyn. They are divided as any party. Liam Fox wanted to put

:56:13.:56:19.

the clock back. To reason may is a Remainer and somebody who is a

:56:20.:56:24.

Remainer, I would want to negotiate a sensible Brexit. I don't see any

:56:25.:56:37.

sign of leadership. If strong leadership means down the ship --

:56:38.:56:43.

Downing Street leadership, is that the strong leadership he approves

:56:44.:56:52.

of? You have said the Labour Party has two leadership battles and group

:56:53.:56:55.

meetings which have had to break up in chaos and that is what is on the

:56:56.:57:00.

table for the people in this country on June eight. Chaos and confusion

:57:01.:57:05.

and labour or competent leadership of Theresa May. You have said

:57:06.:57:10.

they're fighting with the Parliamentary groups, that fighting

:57:11.:57:13.

leads to stop. This morning, anything less than victory is a

:57:14.:57:18.

failure and there will be a reckoning. That is not a united

:57:19.:57:25.

party. That is true of any party at any time. I will not pretend things

:57:26.:57:29.

are good in Westminster. We are very united in Wales. Let's not pretend

:57:30.:57:36.

the Conservative Party is wonderfully united. There are some

:57:37.:57:40.

who want to go back to the days before devolution. They are the

:57:41.:57:43.

people that want to see the powers come from Brussels to London and

:57:44.:57:47.

never come to Wales. That is appalling as part -- as far as the

:57:48.:57:53.

people of Wales are concerned. It is important that the message goes from

:57:54.:57:56.

Wales to the UK Government in Westminster and Wales is not there

:57:57.:58:01.

to see powers taken away. I put the questions to Carwyn Jones about

:58:02.:58:07.

taxation and we have seen Andrew saying there should be no promises

:58:08.:58:12.

on low tax. Carwyn Jones, 5 million of borrowing. Where does Plaid Cymru

:58:13.:58:18.

come in that? We have said we are concerned about the level of cuts to

:58:19.:58:23.

Welsh public services. Health service waiting lists are creaking.

:58:24.:58:31.

There are investments that should go into schools. More tax? In these to

:58:32.:58:37.

be fair. The issues around people being able to offshore tax in other

:58:38.:58:42.

countries is a massive one. That hasn't been resolved yet and I think

:58:43.:58:49.

we have had since 2008, cut after cut and so many communities have

:58:50.:58:54.

lost so many precious assets and we can't allow it to continue. That is

:58:55.:58:58.

why it is important that we don't give the Tories and increased

:58:59.:59:02.

mandate from Wales in this election. We had to see a reduction in the

:59:03.:59:06.

number of Welsh MPs or otherwise people will be giving the Tories a

:59:07.:59:11.

mandate to carry on with more privatisation, to further cut and

:59:12.:59:15.

take powers away from the National Assembly. Mail, where do you come in

:59:16.:59:24.

on this? We have not been in an age of austerity. George Osborne

:59:25.:59:29.

increased the national debt. The idea that the Tories are somehow the

:59:30.:59:40.

custodians of prudence is nonsense. There have been cuts. They have been

:59:41.:59:46.

reductions in spending increases and their art questions are priorities.

:59:47.:59:54.

Why close libraries and parks and leisure centres and day centres?

:59:55.:59:59.

Because of foreign aid. Tory austerity. The government is running

:00:00.:00:05.

a deficit of 50 billion a year. The possibility that Labour could borrow

:00:06.:00:13.

500 million is absurd. I want to bring in Mark Williams because we're

:00:14.:00:17.

having fun in the studio. Mark, I'm sure you would have something to say

:00:18.:00:23.

on this. The tax issue, you will have to look at the detail but one

:00:24.:00:28.

particular concerning issue that will concern everybody is the health

:00:29.:00:31.

budget and the cost of social care. Whether we have to happen English

:00:32.:00:40.

context and funds come to Wales to address social care may well be a

:00:41.:00:49.

reality. I have to say one thing and that is the Lib Dem policy which was

:00:50.:00:53.

raising the tax threshold for those paying income tax with a significant

:00:54.:00:56.

policy and I hope that will continue for the hardest working and knowing

:00:57.:01:04.

-- low-income families. One of the other things mentioned was the

:01:05.:01:08.

triple lock on pensions. They will go up by 2.5% every year. Should

:01:09.:01:16.

that stay? We will have our manifesto commitments. We have stood

:01:17.:01:25.

up for the triple lock and we will be working on the manifesto over the

:01:26.:01:29.

next week and people will be able to marry about pledges with this. It is

:01:30.:01:36.

an important factor. You have a Labour First Minister saying it is

:01:37.:01:39.

fine to borrow an extra ?500 billion. You have the leader of

:01:40.:01:46.

Plaid Cymru was saying it is good to raise taxes. You are not committing

:01:47.:01:56.

to anything. We stand clearly on our record of strong leadership and

:01:57.:02:00.

confidence when it comes to managing the economy. We are in turbulent

:02:01.:02:04.

times but we know there are the Brexit negotiations. We know where

:02:05.:02:08.

we need to continue to play down the public deficit. That is the three

:02:09.:02:14.

things the lecturer will be voting on and when you compare it to the

:02:15.:02:17.

chaos and confusion of Jeremy Corbyn propped up by the Liberals and Plaid

:02:18.:02:23.

Cymru, I know which way the country will go. We have many years of this.

:02:24.:02:31.

It never gets any better. It is austerity after austerity. If you

:02:32.:02:36.

get a job, you will get more money. What do we see, the bedroom tax, in

:02:37.:02:41.

what tax credits, the lowest paid sick more thermally taken in tax. It

:02:42.:02:49.

is not about improving society. It is a difficult one to live with. If

:02:50.:02:54.

you are advocating warren of ?500 billion, it resurrects the idea of a

:02:55.:03:01.

country living beyond its means. Some people have 30 year mortgages

:03:02.:03:04.

to invest in something they could have as an asset. That is what

:03:05.:03:09.

governments do. This is borrowing to invest and then get better return

:03:10.:03:13.

and more of your money back. It is what the government did. Your party

:03:14.:03:19.

borrows money. That is exactly why you borrow. You cannot go on

:03:20.:03:30.

believing money grows on trees because it doesn't. You can borrow

:03:31.:03:33.

for a certain length of time and eventually your credit limit is

:03:34.:03:38.

reached. That is the position Britain has reached. And George

:03:39.:03:42.

Osborne com he doubled the national debt in seven years. ?750 billion.

:03:43.:03:53.

215 more than this. I'm not getting a sense of what you are offering. We

:03:54.:03:59.

are offering a B designation of priorities within government instead

:04:00.:04:04.

of spending billions on foreign aid. It is a drop in the ocean. Not in

:04:05.:04:09.

terms of the health service billion -- budget. We were meant to have

:04:10.:04:18.

?350 million extra a week to stop that was promised by you and you and

:04:19.:04:25.

we have not seen it. Brexit dividend will be eight to ?10 billion on top

:04:26.:04:32.

of that. On top of foreign aid and many other savings, it adds up to a

:04:33.:04:37.

substantial amount of money. Look after our people first, is our

:04:38.:04:42.

slogan. We have to make sure we have a voice. We have had no mentions --

:04:43.:04:47.

we have had more mentions of Gibraltar than Wales and we had the

:04:48.:04:50.

Tories who are signed up to those Brexit promises and are able to

:04:51.:04:57.

influence the UK Government and the priorities of the Conservative

:04:58.:05:00.

Party. He was going to fight for Wales? What are your proposals for

:05:01.:05:07.

Brexit? We want to continue participation in the single market.

:05:08.:05:12.

That is vital for many industries within Wales. What kind of

:05:13.:05:16.

participation? We would like to have the same terms as we have now. We

:05:17.:05:20.

are exporting so much to that single market. No control on immigration.

:05:21.:05:27.

How can we control it? It would be impossible. If you want to control

:05:28.:05:34.

immigration, many want to control it from outside the EU. None of that is

:05:35.:05:38.

possible. Even immigration from within the EU, because there was

:05:39.:05:44.

going to be a soft border within Ireland, there's good to be a

:05:45.:05:52.

difficulty of the free flow of movement between the UK and what is

:05:53.:05:58.

left of the UK and the existing policy. I want to hear from all of

:05:59.:06:02.

you but what can you tell me that you will be offering for Wales? I

:06:03.:06:07.

want to follow up. I am still looking for the guarantee on the

:06:08.:06:12.

triple lock from Andrew. It was said in good faith and now the Tories are

:06:13.:06:16.

trying to get rid of it. That is a disgrace and it will resonate with a

:06:17.:06:19.

lot of hard pressed pensioners around the country. This is an

:06:20.:06:24.

issue, an election that will be dominated by the Brexit debate and

:06:25.:06:27.

sometimes we have to take this down to the human level. It is about

:06:28.:06:31.

those levels of farm subsidy and those schemes that have been

:06:32.:06:36.

supported in the valleys of West Wales and reminding people that it

:06:37.:06:39.

would be lost. That is why it is important to have strong voices in

:06:40.:06:42.

the House of Commons who will argue that case. The offer is we need to

:06:43.:06:48.

remain members of the single market or at the very least, have

:06:49.:06:52.

unfettered access to it. And not fall off the edge with those world

:06:53.:06:56.

trip -- World Trade Organisation tariffs that are looming close to us

:06:57.:07:01.

in the couple of years from now. That is a really important thing. We

:07:02.:07:06.

have so clearly as a party that if these negotiations proceed, just as

:07:07.:07:10.

this process started with the people and the referendum, it should end

:07:11.:07:13.

with a referendum on the terms of the deal that Theresa May set out.

:07:14.:07:19.

But -- will that be in a manifesto? It is not a second death -- second

:07:20.:07:26.

referendum. It is a racket -- ratification referendum. We don't

:07:27.:07:30.

know those terms. We don't go into this negotiation with uncertainty

:07:31.:07:34.

but we are in an uncertain age. We need clarity of the terms and a vote

:07:35.:07:36.

at the end. Should there be a referendum on

:07:37.:07:47.

ratification? Referendum, no, ratification, yes. What we don't

:07:48.:07:50.

want is a UK Parliament full of sheep with blue rosettes, who simply

:07:51.:07:58.

will not challenge what is proposed. What will you be proposing, as a

:07:59.:08:03.

Labour Party? I know that you proposed, as a Welsh government, you

:08:04.:08:06.

can come to work here for six months as an immigration policy after

:08:07.:08:09.

Brexit. This morning, Jeremy Corbyn was promising no such thing. Is he

:08:10.:08:14.

ignoring you? It is a work in progress, we have been clear on what

:08:15.:08:19.

we want. I am a Remain, but the result is what it was. So was

:08:20.:08:24.

Theresa May, we have moved on. Leanne and myself, two parties came

:08:25.:08:27.

together and put forward a sensible proposal for Brexit. It is not one

:08:28.:08:33.

that has been rejected by the UK Government. Wires Jeremy Corbyn not

:08:34.:08:37.

using that? This morning, you said no such thing. We know there is a

:08:38.:08:43.

template, and that he is aware of it. We have to respect the result of

:08:44.:08:47.

the referendum. That is gone. It is trying to interpret what people

:08:48.:08:50.

actually wanted, what outcome they wanted. You have outlined why we

:08:51.:08:57.

need a strong team of Plaid Cymru MPs. No matter how many Labour MPs

:08:58.:08:59.

you have in Westminster, they will not fight for Welsh interests, the

:09:00.:09:06.

same way that Plaid Cymru MPs will. It is only Plaid Cymru that will

:09:07.:09:10.

stand up for Wales. I guess this is your opportunity, as a pro Believe

:09:11.:09:15.

Conservative, you must be chomping at the bit to see those Vote Leave

:09:16.:09:21.

promises in the manifesto? And they will make it to the manifesto. We

:09:22.:09:26.

are mapping out what it will mean. Leanne goes on about a strong team

:09:27.:09:31.

of Plaid Cymru MPs. Plaid Cymru exists to smash up the United

:09:32.:09:34.

Kingdom. The biggest single market we are a member is the United

:09:35.:09:38.

Kingdom. Economic, it would be devastating if we polled the United

:09:39.:09:46.

Kingdom apart. That is what the election is about, strong, confident

:09:47.:09:51.

leadership. That worries me, what he just said. Against the chaos and

:09:52.:09:55.

confusion of Labour, Plaid Cymru and the Liberals clubbing together. That

:09:56.:10:00.

would be disastrous. I don't believe the Welsh Conservatives are standing

:10:01.:10:04.

for Wales, it is about centralising power in London. We think the best

:10:05.:10:08.

way forward is the partnership for four nations across the UK. ALL TALK

:10:09.:10:20.

AT ONCE... The viewer at home is not going to be able to pick up these

:10:21.:10:28.

points. What is happening... You are responding to the point about

:10:29.:10:32.

leadership, but it is a difficult one for you to raise, leadership,

:10:33.:10:36.

when you have problems with Jeremy Corbyn? He has to prove himself,

:10:37.:10:41.

there is no getting away from that. Will he be leader when the election

:10:42.:10:46.

is over? We have to see what the result is. As leaders, we know, and

:10:47.:10:50.

I am the same, with a referendum last year, if things go badly, you

:10:51.:10:54.

carry the responsibility. If things go well, you take the credit. That

:10:55.:10:58.

is how these things have always operated. What worries me is that if

:10:59.:11:03.

we get more Conservative MPs in Wales, the Conservatives will run

:11:04.:11:06.

all over Wales. We will see power taken away. The money we were

:11:07.:11:12.

promised, saying that Wales would not lose a penny, it will stick to

:11:13.:11:16.

summary's fingers in Whitehall. And I am sure you will be fighting to

:11:17.:11:21.

make sure it comes back to Wales? Yes, I would say that every penny of

:11:22.:11:25.

UK money that was spent in Brussels should come to Wales after Brexit. I

:11:26.:11:30.

am against any power grab from Westminster of the powers which are

:11:31.:11:34.

devolved in agriculture, environment, etc, being exercised

:11:35.:11:37.

from Brussels. They should automatically come to us in Cardiff.

:11:38.:11:42.

I very much hope that one of the major issues in this election will

:11:43.:11:48.

be child poverty. I think the Westminster Government, the Tories,

:11:49.:11:51.

in terms of welfare reforms, taking money away from the third child,

:11:52.:11:56.

unless the mother can prove she was raped to conceive the child, and

:11:57.:12:03.

also the Welsh government taking away Communities First funding from

:12:04.:12:05.

the most deprived communities with no guarantee of anything to replace

:12:06.:12:10.

it. On top of losing structural funds, it means child poverty levels

:12:11.:12:14.

are likely to increase. I very much hope we can have a debate about

:12:15.:12:17.

tackling child poverty in this election. We have too much in Wales

:12:18.:12:22.

already. We had a great debate this afternoon. Shouldn't Theresa May

:12:23.:12:25.

stand up and be counted with the other leaders in the TV debates?

:12:26.:12:30.

There is a huge art of access to the Prime Minister. She will be doing

:12:31.:12:35.

two and a sessions. I do want to take the First Minister to task on

:12:36.:12:41.

this issue. He says the Welsh Conservatives do not stand up for

:12:42.:12:44.

Wales. Over the last six years we had two Wales bills that delivered a

:12:45.:12:48.

huge amount of responsibilities to the Welsh Assembly. We have the

:12:49.:12:56.

referendum result, transferring lawmaking powers. The Conservatives

:12:57.:13:00.

will deliver strong, decisive leadership if we are elected. We

:13:01.:13:04.

take nothing for granted. And the rest of them it is chaos and

:13:05.:13:09.

confusion. Chaos and confusion with Labour, Plaid and the Liberals. I am

:13:10.:13:14.

seeing shaking off the head in Aberystwyth? We have the next Prime

:13:15.:13:19.

Minister's Question Time on Wednesday, and then she is off the

:13:20.:13:22.

hook for six weeks. She should have debates with all parties

:13:23.:13:26.

represented. It is a democratic necessity. You talk about

:13:27.:13:31.

leadership, you cannot be a leadership... It is time to finish

:13:32.:13:36.

the programme, we have run out of time this afternoon. We will be back

:13:37.:13:39.

with the latest development is at our regular time next week. Hope you

:13:40.:13:43.

can join me then. If you cannot contain yourself until then, you can

:13:44.:13:44.

follow all of the latest on Twitter. Diolch am wylio -

:13:45.:13:50.

thanks for watching. It's time to clock in...

:13:51.:13:56.

Whoooa!

:13:57.:13:58.

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