02/07/2017 Sunday Politics Wales

It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

Her position may be safe for the time-being.

But what about Theresa May's policies?

As ministers drops hints about easing the public sector pay

cap, is the Conservative Party undergoing a rebrand?

Jeremy Corbyn takes to the streets to call for an end to austerity.

But with his party's divisions on Brexit thrust into the open

is his post-election honeymoon coming to an end?

And, with Brexit talks under way, we know there's plenty at stake

But what's at stake for the remaining EU countries?

We speak to a leading European politician.

The Plaid Cymru leader will be here to tell us

And a year on from this, has Wales really taken up

over its handling of the Grenfell tower disaster.

And, on the eve of Wimbledon, I'm joined by the three top seats

They'll be serving up aces throughout the programme.

Is the Government going to change its policy on public sector pay?

The Conservative manifesto stated that the 1% cap on annual pay rises

for public sector workers would remain in place

until 2020, saving up to ?5 billion a year by then.

Earlier this week there were rumblings that the policy

would be reviewed, before the Treasury weighed in to suggest

The new Environment Secretary, Michael Gove, was asked about it

on the Andrew Marr show earlier today.

I was Education Secretary and I know the schoolteachers pay review body

Not a poodle but they work underneath the overall strategy

set by the Chancellor, set by the government.

They take account of that, but they also take account

of other questions as well, including the number of people

who are entering the profession, whether we need to have an increase

in pay in order to ensure we get the best people in the profession.

These pay review bodies have been set up in order to ensure we can

have authoritative advice on what is required in order

to ensure the public services on which we rely are effectively

staffed and the people within them are effectively supported.

I think we should respect the integrity of that process.

I'm not an individual, I am a member of the government,

Michael Gove. Two U-turns in one day, maybe going for the hat-trick

this week. It sounds they are thinking of ways of loosening up the

pay freeze but Mr Hammond doesn't want it to come out until the autumn

budget. That is absolutely right. My understanding is the deal is already

done. We've reported this week that 20 quite senior Tory MPs went to see

the new chief of staff on Wednesday, to make it very clear indeed they

would be voting for a budget that allowed the public sector pay freeze

to continue. Fine, we're going to do this, we're going to give fresh

advice to the pay review bodies that there remit has been expanded but we

cannot do it today because it's a victory for comrades Jeremy Corbyn

if we do. There we see, in a sense, the weakness of ten Downing St. They

can't direct this policy themselves. They are overruled by Mr Hammond

from Mr 11, and it only takes about 20 Tory MPs to say, hey, this is

what we want and at the very least the government has to listen to them

very seriously. They have to listen to the man they have to act, because

that is the fragility of the new House of Commons. We saw it last

week on another issue. If you have 20 people saying hey has got to rise

in the public sector, beyond the cap, pay will rise in the public

sector beyond the cap, because they won't be up to get it through the

House of Commons. I think there are other issues involved beyond the

numerical situation in the Commons. Lots of MPs came back after that

election, including Gavin Barrell who is in number ten, who lost his

seat, saying teachers and others were saying we can't carry on with

the pay restraint up until 2020. I think it is going to happen for a

combination of reasons. What happens to deficit reduction? The deficit is

going to rise this year. There were a few Tory MPs but not many who feel

it is wrong for the party to capitulate, having made such a point

of principle about posterity, that it looks very, very week just to be

caving in. I think Steve is right. This isn't just about the maths and

the -- in the House of Commons, Tory MPs are frightened in a way I have

never known them frightened before, at the momentum behind Jeremy Corbyn

at the moment. There is a real feeling about the Tory brand being

really in a very, very difficult place at the moment, where Tories

look nasty, there isn't nearly enough sympathy and it feels

politically impossible to stick with the pay limits as they are. That may

be one reason that will keep Tory MPs in line, because the last thing

they want at the moment is an election. When they say the country

doesn't need on another election it means the Tory party doesn't mean

another election, isn't that right? That's right and I think the view is

settled. Notwithstanding frenzied speculation in Sunday newspapers,

the daily newspapers are a lot more responsible! LAUGHTER

But every Tory MP says to Reza until the end of Brexit, we don't want to

open Pandora's box. -- Theresa May until the end of Brexit. The problem

still remains, she does have a lot less authority, which is why you get

bigwigs left, right and Centre for Michael Gove to Damian Green and

Justine Greening rattling that instant more money. You have to keep

the balance by leaving by consensus and a general for all, which we are

in danger of looking like this morning. OK, we will see.

So it's not exactly what you might call "strong and stable",

but after a turbulent couple of weeks, it appears

the Prime Minister has brought less instability,

The Government's legislative programme is in place and Brexit

So has Theresa May done enough to steady the ship

It's been an action-packed story of suspense, drama and intrigue.

The latest instalment, hotly anticipated.

This week, Theresa May tried to do just that.

To get the Democratic Unionist Party's ten MPs to back

the minority government, the PM pledged ?1 billion

Opposition parties branded it a bung and as the week went on,

some have their own MPs who are less than enthusiastic.

Mr Speaker, I can barely put into words my anger at the deal

But having signed that piece of paper, the Tories now had a tight

working majority of 13 to pass key Commons votes.

It was, at the very least, breathing space.

on public sector pay rises should be lifted.

Some Tory MPs, including ministers, agreed, in principle.

Labour's challenge failed, but the Government had

We will listen to what people in this house have said before

The public sector pay cap, by the way, was designed

to save ?5 billion for the public purse by 2020.

But the policy looks like it could be on its last legs.

Thursday was the big moment, the Queen's Speech, which passed,

Tory support for a Labour amendment led to a government pledge to front

abortions in England for women from Northern Ireland.

The ayes have it, the ayes have it, unlock.

The last-minute compromises in this Queen's Speech suggests

the Prime Minister is acutely aware of the arithmetic in Parliament.

She will have to listen more to her own MPs and they know that.

One former Cabinet minister told me every time seven of us get together,

And yet, after this week, the Prime Minister may not be such

I think the ship is certainly steadier.

I think there is a degree of what I call a rolling probation

for the Prime Minister at the moment.

And I think the Prime Minister's performances in the chamber,

Prime Minister's Questions, we had the first one back this

week, where she reasserted a deal of her authority.

And I think there is a great deal of relief and respect for that.

Others say the party should reflect on more

It doesn't matter if we have Alexander the great or the Ark

Angel Gabriel as leader, unless we have fundamental reform.

At the moment, often we have these policies but it's like a whole load

of clothes pegs without a washing line, bringing them together.

So we need to explain what we are about.

The Conservative Party is there to help working

The Conservative Party is there because we are the party

of the ladder of opportunity to get people up that ladder.

We have a moral purpose, too, just as the Labour Party do.

Several MPs told me the debate within the party is still when,

Anybody who says it will definitely be Theresa May as the leader

of the Conservative Party going into the next general election

It might be, I have to say at the moment it's

But conversely, there is absolutely no appetite whatsoever,

thre are no manoeuvres going on, no operations going on to instigate

a leadership challenge to have a new leader

of the Conservative Party in the immediate future.

One theory is that Theresa May stays on as PM to negotiate

To be something of a scapegoat for what will be,

at best controversial, at worst, deeply unpopular.

And then, to move aside to make way for a less tarnished leader, who can

take the Conservatives into the next general election.

It's the immediate future Theresa May will be focused on.

This week, a G20 meeting in Hamburg with other world leader chums.

Back home, she can't take her friends for granted

and told her own MPs, she'd serve as long

Joining me now is the Minister for International Trade Greg Hands.

Welcome to the programme. Good morning, Andrew. Do you agree with

your old Treasury boss, George Osborne, who said easing up on

austerity would risk the mistakes of the past which led Britain to the

point where there was no money left? There is no change in government

policy. We must live within our means. That is the right thing to

do. We have reduced the deficit by three quarters since 2010. That is

work that is still ongoing. It's very important that we keep budget

discipline, because it's impossible to pay for our public services

without having a growing economy, the taxes coming into pay for all

the services people want and expect. How can you continue to cut the

deficit, it's actually rising this year compared to last year, how do

you continue to cut the deficit? ?1 billion to find for the DUP, you

have to find the money you could in debt because you couldn't change

national insurance, and if you loosen up on the public sector pay

freeze, you have to find money for that as well, how do you do both?

It's important to have a prudent policy, a prudent fiscal budget

policy. The Chancellor will be laying out his budget in the

autumn... How do you square the circle and me all these demands?

Your own ministers are talking about them and yet continue with deficit

reduction? It's very important to consider what we have done on public

sector pay. Actually by having that cap in place we have saved around

200,000 public sector jobs. We have done a lot for the lower paid public

sector workers by raising the personal allowance... I'm not asking

about that, I'm asking how do you meet the demand for extra public

spending and continue with deficit reduction? I think over the last

seven years the government has had a very good record on this, Andrew. In

terms of being able to reduce the deficit... While still putting in

place increases in public funding. For example, in the Conservative

manifesto we pledged 4 billion extra on schools and 8 billion extra on

health. We can do the two together, but it does require that budget

discipline overall, making sure that something is to get out of control.

You were a number two in the Treasury during George Osborne's

tenure. You protected pensioners with triple lock, free bus passes,

the Winter fuel allowance but trebled tuition fees on young folk

made it impossible for many of them to get a foot on the property

ladder. Is it any wonder young people to vote for you? I think

that's an important question for us and an important question as we look

at the election. That's why I asked the question, what is the answer? We

have to improve our offer and young people and provide more housing. I

think we need to look at more money into schools, improving our schools

as we go forward and making sure that cities like mine in London are

made more liveable and more cost-effective for young people. Why

haven't you done that in the past seven years? Instead you have

secured the pensioners and you have knocked young folk may have turned

against you. Why should young people believe in capitalism if they have

no chance of accruing any capital? I think what we have done over the

last seven years has actually been to build more homes. We just need to

build the more quickly. Your record of building homes is even worse than

the last Labour government and you know that. 62% of 18-24 -year-olds

voted Labour. 62%. 56 of 25-35 -year-olds. You didn't build enough

houses for these people. That is one of the reasons why we are addressing

that. Why haven't you addressed it? 1.5 million new homes over the

course of this Parliament and what we have done that with things like

starter homes, shared ownership, it's much more flexible forms of

tenure to make sure homes are more attractive to younger people,

particularly younger people starting off in life. Ministers have bent

telling me this for seven years and you never do it. -- been telling me.

That is what the programme is designed to do. We have been

building more homes. We need to accelerate that. We'll phone need an

open conversation about how we improve elsewhere for young people

in schools and universities and so on that. OK, Brexit. You are the

International Trade Minister. Will the UK leave the customs union in

March 2019, and if it doesn't make its own trade deals? Our position on

exit and the customs union is unchanged. What is it? To leave the

single market and Customs union. But other components of free trade

agreement with the European Union and customs arrangements, so we have

frictionless free trade with the European Union. Will that happen by

March 2019? That is the negotiation that has just started. I am not

putting an end state on that. What I'm saying is the objective in this

is to make sure that we frictionless trade with the EU and come to a

future customs arrangements to buy it's not clear we will be able to

start making our own trade deals after March 2019? Once we leave the

European Union, yes, I am clear we will be able to make our own trade

deals. March 2019? When we leave the single union and the customs union

we come to an arrangement with the European Union. We will be able to

make free trade deals but at the moment we can't because we are in

the EU. Will you be able to make them if there is a transition

period? That remains to be seen. You might not. We have only just started

the negotiation. You had a year to think about it. To think about a

transition period and when it might start and then... What we are clear

about is there should be no cliff edge for businesses in the UK and

the European Union and to make sure the trade continues as frictionless

as possible. We don't yet know if we will be able to make our free trade

deals during the transitional period? It could be postponed until

2021 or 22? We don't yet know if we're going to have a transition

period, to be fair. The objection in all of this is to have frictionless

free trade with the European Union and come to a customs arrangement.

That is the objective. You are minister for London so let's

turn to the Grenfell Tower disaster. Kensington and Chelsea Council is in

chaos. The leader resigned on Friday and the chief executive has gone as

well. That is what I mean, it is in chaos. We're waiting for a new

leader for the council because it is important for local democracy to

have its say. It is quite a big thing for government to to go in and

put a Council on special measures. It is in a state, you have lost the

chief executive, you've lost the council leader, it is lacking in

experience and surely if there is ever a time to send in the

Commissioners to get a grip of this crisis, it is now? We are waiting

for a new leader. There is an interim chief executive coming over

from Lewisham Council. Clearly, there will be lessons to be learned

and that is a matter for the public enquiry. There will be an election

within the Conservative group on the council. There are very capable

councillors in Kensington and Chelsea. We haven't seen much sign

of that, did you have any involvement in the resignation of

the council leader? I spoke to him, like all council leaders do. I spoke

to him, I spoke to the previous leader and the leader of might of

the council. It is natural that MPs speak to their council leaders on an

ongoing basis. We know the Council opted for cheaper cladding because

they want good costs. So that cheese pairing is inevitable in town halls

when central government, has yours has done, cut their budget by 40%? I

don't accept the premise to that because a lot of financing has been

devolved back to local government. But you have cut local government

financing by 40%. There is 200 billion available over the rest of

this Parliament to the local councils and we believe that is

fair. Kensington and Chelsea Council spent ?8.6 million on this

refurbishment. It is not necessarily a shortage of funds. Indeed, they

have 274 million in reserves and they put people at risk to save

?300,000. If that is not a case of putting in the Commissioners, what

is? That is a matter for the ongoing enquiry and the lessons to be

learned from that and how it happened is a matter for the

different enquiries, including the public enquiries. Thank you.

Theresa May's stated aim in calling the election last month was to get

a stronger hand in the Brexit negotiations - in the end, the

But it's worth remembering that there's a lot at stake for both

and a big trading partner for the 27 countries remaining in the EU.

When Mr Davis and Mr Barnier kicked off the talk a couple of weeks ago,

the tone was businesslike and broadly constructive.

The two men agreed that the first age of the negotiation

The rights of EU citizens living here and British

The financial settlement that the UK will pay the EU,

On citizens rights, the EU published their proposals three weeks ago,

and the UK Government came forward with their plan last Monday.

The UK offer, however, was greeted with scepticism.

The Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte said...

But elsewhere, some EU figures have begun to worry about the financial

implications of Brexit for the remaining 27 countries.

Gunther Oettinger, the EU's budget Commissioner, said this week that

Brexit would leave a hole in the EU's finances of at least

That's because the UK is a net contributor to the budget.

The UK also runs a large trade deficit with the EU.

Last year we bought ?312 billion worth of goods

That is 71 billion more than we sold to the

So the introduction of trade tariffs would be costly for both sides.

The Brexit negotiations will continue every month.

Mr Davis and Mr Barnier will have their next face-to-face

meeting in Brussels on Monday the 17th of July.

Joining me now from Rome is Roberto Gualtieri.

He's a Socialist MEP, and part of the European

Welcome to the programme. The British government has published a

detailed plan to protect the rights of EU citizens living in the UK. The

EU response was highly critical, will that be the EU's response to

everything Britain proposes? First, we welcome the intention to protect

EU citizens. But, our reading of the plan is that it falls short of its

own ambitions, so there are a number of issues to be clarified. I think

also to be corrected. For instance, while our proposal is based on a new

low, this is based on a UK low and there are no guarantees that might

be changed in the future. Then there is the famous issue of enforcement,

which is based on UK courts. And third, there are a number of rights

which seem to be missing. For instance, a family member will have

to make his own request for settled status and we consider that an

conceivable there might be two different answers. My own child, for

instance. You are right, there are things to discuss. This wasn't a

take it or leave it offer by the British government, it was the

beginning of a negotiation. But Michel Barnier said it lacked

clarity and vision. Someone else said it was worrisome and the Dutch

Prime Minister said there were thousands of questions left

unanswered. These are not helpful responses? It is not an issue of

tones, it is an issue of the start of the negotiation, indeed. We are

commentating the paper, identifying what is good, and the rights

similar, there are a number of loopholes and there are some more

from the issues relating to the legal status... It just sounds very

constructive. Instead of saying, this is a good start, but there is

much more to do. But you just sound negative. No, I don't think so. My

first sentence was, I welcome the intention to protect the rights of

EU citizens. That is a very constructive sentence. Then one has

to be consistent and to find a mechanism which fully guarantees the

right and the negotiation, and they are exactly for this purpose.

Brussels is now worrying about how to fill the huge financial hole that

Britain's departure will create in EU revenues. There is a number of

ideas being floated at the moment, introduce an EU VAT supplement or

take an axe to the common agricultural policy which is about

40% of the budget. Does that appeal to you? There are two different

problems. The first is to define the settlement, which has to be an

integral part of the withdrawal agreement. We are not looking for

fines, we are looking for only commitment to be paid. Then there is

the issue for the future, were of course the union will have to

reassess and redefine and improve its mechanism in its own resources

so it can have an efficient finances in the future. So what do you want,

and EU VAT or cutting money to Italy? I think the union deserves a

better system of resources. This is for the future and we are working on

that. Do you agree with the bustle's commission every member of the EU

should adopt the euro by 2025? Yes, of course it is possible. Like it

was for the United Kingdom, for Denmark, but in principle, the

members of the union members of the union. So we think it would be good

to a allowed the euro. There is the political will of the country to be

taken into account but I think the euro has proven to be a successful

currency, protecting citizens. I expect the membership will be

broadened in the future. Why is it's GDP below what it was 15 years ago

and the industrial output is below them what it was in 1984 so the euro

hasn't been successful to you. You now run a massive deficit with

Germany, where is the success? It should not be confused, the currency

with the economic crisis we had. The also mistake in the conductor of the

economic policy. We are changing austerity politics for more growth

policies. Your country hasn't grown since you join the euro. The

economic policy is another thing, so we need to change the economic

policy. The common currencies is a strong protection for all of us.

Your country hasn't grown since you joined the euro. I don't think your

assessment is correct. Yes it is. By the way now, Italy is growing and

that is good. Europe is growing. In 2017 it is growing more than the US

and the UK. Do you accept if Britain had stayed in and been forced to

join the euro in 2025, there is no public opinion support for joining

the euro here? This is a joke. Whenever they say, if the UK had

stayed in the union, the UK would be forced to join the euro. This is not

true. That is what the Brussels delegation said. The Brussels

commission said it thinks everybody in the EU should adopt the euro by

2025. As I said, no. If you want to make a political statement, you are

free to do so. But the fact is, the member of the delegation to the euro

are supposed to join. Members who have decided to stay out of the

euro, are free to stay out of the euro whilst they are in the EU. That

is perfectly possible. Thank you for speaking to us from Rome today.

Jeremy Corbyn has had a bit of a spring in his step

since the election, after doing much better than pretty much

Indeed, despite the party's internal splits, Labour

But earlier this week, Labour's divisions on Brexit

were thrust into the open as 50 Labour MPs defied the party line

to vote in favour of a backbench amendment calling for the UK

to remain members of the EU single market and customs union.

One of those rebels was Labour MP Stella Creasy who had this to say

What a lot of us are saying is we want, in these negotiations,

To have a government that has forced through a hard Brexit,

especially in the light of the general election result,

with the public very clearly rejecting Theresa May's approach,

And across the house, again, there are MPs saying,

We don't know what is possible to achieve, but what we do know

is if you walk in the room and you throw away something

like single market membership, which 650,000 jobs in London alone

Welcome to the programme. Thank you. Secretary Richard Burgon.

Welcome to the programme. Thank you. On Thursday 49 MPs, almost a fifth

of the Parliamentary party, rebelled against the leadership over Brexit,

including three shadow ministers, were subsequently sacked by Jeremy

Corbyn. Labour is now more divided on Brexit than the Tories? I don't

think so. I think the amendment was regrettable and premature, and I

agree with the Labour deputy leader Tom Watson, when he said he was

disappointed about that. Actually, the difference in the Labour Party,

the difference of nuance on the single market between those who

definitely want to be a member of the single market, including some

people who backed that amendment, and those who want tariff free

access to the single market. The and those who want tariff free

reality is, not just on Brexit, but a whole host of issue, it's the

Conservative government that is completely divided and that odds

with itself. If it is just nuance and you are not divided, Mark our

card. The Chancellor said single access market mentorship is not on

the table, the Brexit secretary said it should be and another shadow

ministers speaks about seeking reformed membership of the European

market and the customs union. Which one is Labour policy? Brexit is

market and the customs union. Which settled issue, in that Labour

market and the customs union. Which accents Britain is leaving the

European Union but we believe accents Britain is leaving the

Britain has to have a with the institutions. Which one is

should be having a job 's first Brexit.

should be having a job 's first economy first. As our manifesto

says, Union, for example that also means

the freedom of movement of labour, and the UK's part of that, will end

the freedom of movement of labour, when Britain leads the EU. Do

the freedom of movement of labour, want freedom of movement to

the freedom of movement of labour, What we do want to end is

the freedom of movement of labour, practice of

and also an scrupulous employers trying to use the free you movement

of labour to breakdown -- drag down terms and conditions. You can do

that if we are in or out of single market. Do you want freedom

of movement to end? It is inevitable the freedom of movement will end. Do

you want it to do is a question that that is the difference. Your

you want it to do is a question that manifesto said what you just

you want it to do is a question that asked you if you want it

you want it to do is a question that What Labour wants is Brexit that

puts jobs on the economy that What Labour wants is Brexit that

What Labour doesn't want is to What Labour wants is Brexit that

immigration and fall What Labour wants is Brexit that

targets as the Conservatives did on the table. What is the

quite simple, the free movement of quite simple, the free movement of

labour will end in terms of when the UK leads the European Union.

labour will end in terms of when the Labour's priority is not any other

labour will end in terms of when the issue than jobs on the economy being

put first and that is really important.

put first and that is really stay in the customs union? I think

put first and that is really we need to

put first and that is really open on that. We need to

put first and that is really without putting options off the

table. without putting options off the

you know what your aim is, is it to leave or stay in the

you know what your aim is, is it to British manufacturers gain a lot,

and their workers, in jobs, in British manufacturers gain a lot,

of the current British manufacturers gain a lot,

customs union. What we want is an equivalent benefit. We want the

benefits of being in the customs union, even if when we leave

benefits of being in the customs European Union we can't be in the

benefits of being in the customs customs union. These are the kind of

demands that Theresa May making, and her ability to do so,

I'm making, and her ability to do so,

weakened by the fact you can't even command a majority now after she

asked for a majority to do so. You have criticised the government for

saying no deal is better than a bad deal, which I understand.

saying no deal is better than a bad that mean Labour's position is

saying no deal is better than a bad any deal is better than no Deal? Any

deal better than no Deal? No, no. any deal is better than no Deal? Any

would be strange to say any deal is better than no Deal. We want a good

deal for Britain. But if you can't get that? We are confident a Labour

government could get that, we want a job 's first Brexit that puts jobs

government could get that, we want a first and puts living standards

government could get that, we want a first and doesn't use, as the

Conservative government has tried to do, Brexit as a smoke screen to try

and create some kind of low regulated tax haven... You could be

in government for very shortly and the in these negotiations. If the EU

does not budge on demanding 1 billion euros divorce Bill, would

you just sack that for the sake of any deal or say no? -- suck it up?

Labour won't be sucking up to anyone, the EU or anyone else. A

Labour government would negotiate hard for Britain. What if they

wouldn't budge? On the demand for 100 billion euros? What would you

do? These are hypothetical scenarios, and these negotiations

are nuanced and compensated. Labour scenarios, and these negotiations

would campaign, in opposition, hold the government to account for and in

government deliver jobs first Brexit, that puts the economy does.

The kind of post-Brexit Britain we want to see is one in which there is

investment in industry, assistance from the government in industry and

are more equal society with high wage jobs. Ian Wright Fricke, your

new party says Labour is currently too broad a church. Do you agree

with him? I think the Labour Party has always been a broad church. He

says too broad? It has always been a broad church, socialists and

says too broad? It has always been a unionists and long may it be so. You

don't agree? The Labour Party is a broad church and it should be. Do

you support lowering the broad church and it should be. Do

of MPs needed, that you need to get to stand for the Labour leadership?

It is going to be debated at your autumn conference? This question

isn't seen as dead about the leadership election many people

predicted would occur after the general election won't be occurring.

Do you support? Tom Watson says Jeremy Corbyn is secure for many

years. I do believe all parties, including the Labour Party, need to

be made more democratic. We have a membership of well over half a

million and I would like the members to have more say in our party's

policies and in the way the party is run. Jeremy Corbyn spoke at a

left-wing rally in London yesterday. Among the crowd there were placards

calling Theresa May a murderer, pictures of Mrs May's head on

communist flags and Trotskyite banners. Are these the kind of

people Mr Corbyn should be associating himself with, if he is a

Prime Minister in waiting? The reality is when you speak at an

outdoor meeting, you have no control who turns up or who is walking past.

You have no control over the kind of banners people make. I understand

the hundred and 50,000 members of the public at that event. No, there

won't, 15,000. I spoke the night before the general election, in an

event in Leeds city centre. For all I know, there could have been all

sorts of people walking past, watching. The key thing is to judge

Jeremy by his words, Judge Labour by our words on what we've done. We do

believe in a new kind of politics. Also politics committed to changing

our society for the better. OK, Richard Burgen, thank you for

joining us today. It is coming up to 11:40pm. -- 11:40am.

Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics Wales.

but has it led to more football being played in Wales?

And Labour's Christina Rees will be here to tell us how the party

should behave while opposing Theresa May's minority government.

But first, Plaid Cymru was celebrating on June the 9th

after gaining a seat at the election.

That said, it targeted several other seats without success

Its leader Leanne Wood is here with me now.

Good morning. Is it fair to say that a great victory in Ceredigion mask

what was otherwise a fairly disappointing set of results? It's

difficult to feel disappointed when our number of seats went up and we

came quite close in some other seeds. The majority has shrunk but

nonetheless we have four MPs and that comes on the back of a

successful local election campaign as well. What this election tells us

more than anything is that people are prepared to vote differently in

different directions. I think a lot of tactical voting took place on

this occasion and Plaid Cymru and some of the other parties were

squeezed in those other seeds. You say you came close in other seeds,

you also came very close to losing Arfon, for example, and some of your

other targets. We had Adam Price before the elections say you were

aiming for eight. Anglesey, Ceredigion, Blaenau Gwent, the

Rhondda. It was really disappointing in those other ones where you didn't

win. You always have to aim high and at the beginning of the election,

the polls were telling us a very different picture to the picture

that happened at the end of the election. Our target and strategy at

the beginning was absolutely correct. But in the last election in

2015, we lost Anglesey by 200 votes. With people saying then, you only

lost 200 votes? No, they were saying, you lost Anglesey. This time

we won four seats. It was a very difficult context for us to be

fighting that election, which was presidential, it was between Theresa

May and Jeremy Corbyn, and look how Ukip, the Liberal Democrats and the

Green Party were squeezed. In that context, Plaid Cymru had a

successful evening, you could argue. You were squeezed and it was a

return to two party politics. I think 84 present of the vote went to

either Labour or the Conservatives. But does that mean what you've got

is a very left-wing Labour Party, a right-wing Conservative Party, but

there is this massive centre ground in British politics, in Welsh

politics as well, which is right for someone to go in and pick that up,

but you're not the party to do that because you are a left-wing party?

Is that a problem? I'm not sure those terms are helpful any more in

the post-Brexit climate. There are different attractions to different

parties on different issues. Just the vote this week to retain our

membership of the single market shows that all those young people

who may well have voted Labour with great hope in the last election

because they thought they might have been representative of their views

on the way that we leave the European Union, I think many of

those young people may have had their hopes dashed this week by the

vote on that amendment. So there are many areas for Plaid Cymru to be

campaigning on and of course there is the question of Wales. How often

do you hear the front bench of the opposition talk about Wales? How

often have they raised the question of Wales, Barnett Formula funding

and so on in light of the deal with the DUP that was announced last

week? Just go back to Brexit, you are seeing those young people who

voted Labour may well have been disappointed, but what would you do

differently? Our position is very clear. We believe Wales is best of

staying within the single market. The jobs reliant on are safer in

that eventuality. And Plaid Cymru signed up to a paper, a joint White

Paper with the Welsh Government, outlining that position. It seems

now that the Welsh Government is rowing back on that and certainly

that vote last week from Labour's position, where were those Welsh MPs

standing up for the Welsh national interest in Parliament? Staying in

the single market, that means not being able to control immigration.

Those were factors for people voting to leave the European Union. The key

question for us in Wales is how we leave the European Union. A lot is

assumed as to what that'll last year meant. There was one question on the

ballot paper and that was do we stay or do we leave the European Union.

All the questions around immigration and membership of the single market,

people are assuming people meant certain things when they voted in

that referendum but we can't make those assumptions. The question for

us is whether or not Wales has any say whatsoever in the process as we

leave the European Union. As things stand, we are not in a very strong

position. Look at Northern Ireland, look at Scotland, they at least have

a voice. Where is Wales? You are saying you want to stay in the

single market, you are saying immigration may not be as much of a

problem as people are saying, but everything you want to see

essentially bypasses the fact that the UK and Wales voted to leave the

European Union. We accept the vote. Just nothing that comes out of it?

There are companies -- countries like Norway that have a model that

exists that could be there for us if we were prepared to have that

debate. And we have to pay for it. You would like to see the UK

continuing to pay the European Union? I would like to see this as

part of the negotiation but at the moment it has been closed down and

because of that vote last week, it means that potentially the best

option for Wales is not now on the table. I think when those jobs are

put in jeopardy, people are going to have to answer some serious

questions about their position on this. Looking at what is happening

in Westminster now, the DUP and the deal with Theresa May, to what

extent would you be willing to consider supporting the Tory

government, if say the DUP deal breaks down and they turn to you? We

have been very clear that we would not provide confidence to this Tory

government. We would not prop them up. But we would use every

opportunity to maximise our leverage. We have been saying for

years... How? Look at the way Stella Creasy managed to get that amendment

on abortion access for women in the North of Ireland to be able to

access abortion in England. That was done by using the leverage that is

available to MPs in a situation like this. I'm not able to give you an

example of the kind of arrangement we could come to on this but we

would be using every opportunity we can to maximise Wales' powers and to

try to end austerity in Wales. They whiz will be listening to this and

while they won't support the Tory government but they think, without

giving them some kind of support how will you get what you want out of

it? It is a hung parliament and they are going to be on a day-to-day

basis discussions on who votes where in order for the government to keep

its programme, to get the basic things through. There will be

opportunities for Welsh MPs to try and make sure that like Northern

Ireland, they have managed to get ?1.5 billion, ending austerity

effectively... So you would support them? We would be daft and not doing

our job if we were to ignore opportunities to end austerity in

Wales. People are really struggling at the moment and we have to do

everything we can to make sure that people in Wales's position is

strengthened and where we can take measures to end austerity we

absolutely well. Just looking to the future and your leadership of the

party, we have had five years, Ceredigion, the Rhondda, two

successes, but can you point to any breakthrough that the party has had

under your leadership? You have just mentioned two breakthroughs. Our

seats went up in the last two elections. That is a record I think

we can be proud of. We have got a big job of work to do preparing the

party ahead of the 2021 Assembly elections. I want Plaid Cymru to be

the biggest party after that election. I intend to leave the

party into the election and be Plaid Cymru's candidate for First

Minister. So definitely no views about standing down any time soon?

Not at all. Now, where were you on this

weekend a year ago? Chances are you were watching

Wales beat Belgium At the time, there were many calls

to capitalise on the success of the national team

to promote more playing but what legacy has that

journey actually left? Well, though there has been

investment in grassroots football, the organisation which develops

the sport has told this programme It was perhaps the greatest night

in Welsh footballing history. A 3-1 win over Belgium saw us reach

the last four of Euro 2016. Having not featured

in an international tournament here we were striding

into a semifinal. It was hoped the team's

remarkable success in France would have a knock-on effect

where it really matters, in parks and communities

across Wales. We filmed this group of budding

footballers a year ago so we came back to see how

they have been getting on. I scored about three goals

and I love playing football. We had a good season

because all the players What do you think was so good

about your team A year ago, our most capped

footballer told this programme our success in the Euros

was a golden opportunity to develop the sport

at a grassroots level. Former goalkeeper Neville Southall

described it as a chance in a million to change the way

we do things and he said children like these

need to be provided with So a year on from that

heroic win in Lille, The FAW says its profits

from the tournament, around ?4 million,

will be reinvested in facilities which will benefit

grassroots football. And a number of Welsh clubs have

had all-weather pitches installed which will serve

their local community. But much more still

needs to be done, according to the Association's

development arm, the FAW Trust. Clearly in terms of facilities,

?4 million in the context of what needs to be achieved,

facilities is one of the fundamental issues for the health

and growth of the game, there needs to be more

support from other partners Other partners, including

the Welsh Government, which channels its sports funding

through Sport Wales. The position we are in at the moment

is that government will ask the sport sector

to do more with the ?20 million To expect Sport Wales

to do even more with what is a diminishing

budget is unrealistic. I think it's committed

to ensuring that the grass roots game

flourishes. That is what it set up

to do as an organisation, to protect and promote

the development of the game, In order for the bottom end

to flourish, the top end needs to be successful and it's finding

that balance constantly. Cuts to local authority budgets

remain a concern for the Trust too. We contacted the 22 Welsh councils

to find out how many new pitches Of the 16 that responded, six said

they had invested in new facilities. In the meantime, the number

of registered young players with 900 more boys and 1,200

more girls playing football. That's a rise of 2%

and 32% respectively. The biggest problem we face

is finding places for children to play because it's no good them

being enthused by seeing Gareth Bale, Aaron Ramsey,

Joe Allen, if then when they go out to play there are not sufficient

pitches or quality pitches I think there was a lot

of celebration amongst our politician as much as amongst

the public for the success we saw in the Euros last year but there has

to be a time where we put our money We know that sport can assist

a lot of government agendas, health particularly,

but also social inclusion and various other really significant

government priorities. We played at Leckwith on the 4G

facilities so that was really good for our boys because we could play

football every week and that was It's just an all-weather pitch

so our games are never called off. The older teams playing on grass

lost all their games due to the rain The Welsh Government says

it's committed to making Wales and it's undertaking a review

of playing facilities. Sport Wales told us it has invested

in schemes to create more artificial pitches so children can play more

football and keep dreaming of representing Wales

on the biggest stage. Having gained seats against the odds

at the election, it now finds itself promising

to bring about Brexit while most of its backbenchers

are Remainers. Then at the end of last week

three shadow ministers were sacked for opposing the party

over a Commons vote. So what should Labour's

strategy be from now on? The Shadow Welsh Secretary

is Christina Rees who's here now. Good morning. It does seem a bit of

a strange one for the party, especially over the last week, we

saw Jeremy Corbyn getting through in terms of opposition on cap for

public sector pay, but by the end of the week we are back to squabbling

and internal problems for the party. It's a difficult time still. I think

we are in a very good position, a clear position, and we have worked

with Carwyn Jones to make their position clear. We are putting jobs

and prosperity at the forefront of our Brexit negotiations and we would

look at securing that for Wales and for the UK. Yes, we voted to come

out, Wales and the UK, so we have to accept that result and move on to a

negotiating position. But surely a jobs first Brexit would include

trying as much as possible to stay inside the single market and yet

what we've seen now from the Labour Party is a vote saying that you are

coming out of the single market. The public was put to a referendum and

they voted to come out. We have to accept that and move on. We have to

look at the negotiation strategy and that includes various things like

immigration, we have to have a good position on that, a fair deal for

the regions as well as the nations of the UK, and ahead of that, we

would concentrate on jobs, prosperity. Make that the focus of

our negotiation. As we heard from Leanne Wood, what she wants to see

is this Norway style model, which Carwyn Jones used to talk about,

where you can remain on the single market but you have to make payments

to the EU. That would be a jobs first Brexit. But that is a

contradiction. If we come out of the EU, why should we continue to pay?

Also, the Norway model, there are four countries in that. Really, if

we were to join that, we would be the biggest country in that

grouping. I don't think they want that. In terms of the politics

within the Parliamentary Labour group, has there been a shift since

the election because before the vote it was fractious and a lot of the

MPs not keen on Jeremy Corbyn. He has done a lot better than expected.

Has that changed the dynamic within the Parliamentary Labour Party? Yes,

insomuch as Jeremy Corbyn ran a very good campaign. Carwyn Jones is our

leader in Wales. They worked together in that campaign and we in

Wales exceeded our expectations. We got 28 seats so we gained three. And

overall we went from 232 up to 262. It is a strange relationship between

Carwyn Jones and Jeremy Corbyn. During the campaign, the message we

were getting as journalists was, this is not Jeremy Corbyn's

campaign, this is Carwyn Jones' campaign and the Welsh Labour

manifesto. Do you put the success down to Carwyn Jones rather than

Jeremy Corbyn? No, it is a joint effort. That is not what we were

being told. We were being told, keep Jeremy Corbyn away. And he was

literally kept away, he was he at once. He came twice. When can you

get him? He is in demand all over the UK. So you have been ignored?

Nice try! He came to Colwyn Bay, he came to Whitchurch, and when he did

his live dates in Birmingham, we live streams that into Barry. So we

took every opportunity to bring him to Wales. But Carwyn Jones kept on

saying he is the boss in Wales. So on Brexit, it seems Carwyn Jones is

more keen to get the greatest possible access to the single market

rather than Jeremy Corbyn. How does that play out? Kia Starmer and

Carwyn Jones meet regularly. Yes, we want unfettered access to the single

market and the customs union and that is what we are working towards

together. But when you look at the MPs last week, a mixed week for

Jeremy Corbyn, 50 of his MPs rebelled against him, three

frontbenchers being sacked because they voted against him. That

euphoria of the success of the general election campaign seems to

have been taken off now. There seems to be a lot more rebellion within

the party once again. I fully understand that this is a very

important issue. It is for life and people are very passionate. MPs are

very passionate about this. I fully understand their position. But they

knew our position before that vote and if they took a decision to vote

against the whip, they know the repercussions. But Jeremy Corbyn

hasn't been able to persuade them, he hasn't been able to say, I am the

leader now, I had a successful general election campaign, backed me

on this just so that we can show a united front. I don't think he

failed. 50 of his Parliamentary colleagues voted against him. 49.

There was one teller who would have voted against. We are a broad party

and we have different views and we have to accommodate those views. But

the people who voted against the whip in that amendment knew what

they were doing and they knew the repercussions. But we continue to

work together as always. What do you think will be happening next? We

know that Theresa May is in a precarious position, propped up by

the DUP. Do you think there is going to be an election any time soon? We

are preparing for government. I am going around Wales again, having

done my 40 seat tour during the election, yesterday I was in

Carmarthen. We are ready for government. But I think she will

hang on for as long as she can. Could there be a situation where you

are in a position to take over as a minority government under Jeremy

Corbyn? We are good to go. But you would need the support of the DUP?

No. You would do it without them? Yes. But what you think about Jeremy

Corbyn being someone people many can't see him being Prime Minister.

He is very comfortable now as a leader and he is the future Prime

Minister, no doubt. A lot of young people voted for Labour because of

his views on Brexit but as we heard from Leanne Wood, hasn't he gone

against their wishes on that? The young people read our manifesto and

it was very attractive to all people across the ages. They read that

manifesto and they voted for us on that. Thank you.

Don't forget we're on Twitter - we're @walespolitics.

Diolch am wylio, thanks for watching.

the fact it was this tower, as opposed to another tower. Andrew,

back to you. So, is the Conservative Party

undergoing a re-brand? Can Jeremy Corbyn unite

the Labour party? And has Michael Gove reinvented

the political interview? Let's start with this conservative

speeches. Damian Green, other people talking about the need to do some

hard thinking about tuition fees, home ownership, a pitch for the

young and many other things. That's normally the kind of speech as

politicians give when you lose an election? It's ironic, it sort of

feels like they have lost the election. I keep having to remind

people that Tories got nearly 60 seats more than Labour got. This

feels like the beginning of a repositioning, you are right. I

wouldn't have said they are embarking on a rebrand but they need

to. What was remarkable about the David Cameron years, particularly at

the beginning of David Cameron's leadership of the party, was despite

all the efforts he made to modernise the Conservative Party with the

pitch on environment and big society and all of that stuff, is when you

actually continued to poll people about what they thought of the

Tories, they still thought the Tories represented the wealthy and

were for the wealthy. It was only camera and that made the difference,

and that hasn't gone away. I don't understand how they do this. To do

blue sky thinking, to have a real rethink of what you stand for, is

normally what you do in opposition. It's tougher to do when you are in

power. I can see you could do it if you were a hundred seat majority and

not much to worry about, but when you're living hand to mouth in a

hung parliament, I don't see how these politicians have the bandwidth

to survive and do this blue sky thinking. And they won't have. They

will become exhausted very quickly, and by that I mean physically

exhausted. As a minority Labour government of 1974-79 became

exhausted quickly. Also, to think about this rethinking and rebranding

means a coordinated approach, it's not. You will have individual

ministers reflecting on what went wrong and what they need to do to

put it right. Although they technically won more seats, they are

a lot more marginal seats now than before. Why they don't want and

another election. I think it will be, as I say, they haven't got a

strong leader in place at the moment, it will be frantic and

uncoordinated when they get the space to do it. And very reactive.

Yes. Reactive events from the other parties, like Stella Creasy, and

their own party. They have a leader who is not just weak and survival is

the name of the game for her at the moment, she is not noted for policy

development or policy rethink at all. She is, actually. Really? So

sorry to burst this bubble. Look at the Tory party manifesto. I'm not

saying I backed it or not, but the Tory party manifesto in the

election, it was incredibly radical. They had an entire chapter called

international generational failures. Arguing or solving or trying to

solve a huge amount of problems they might have. That wasn't her, it

wasn't actually her. Is the bubble still intact? It does, there is a

lot of radical thinking going on. The problem they've got, they

absolutely disastrously failed to sell it. The wrong person in charge

to sell it, she doesn't look like much of a radical. They failed to

make the point when they were given the chance in front of the

electorate. They need to find a better way to communicate. Reports

this morning on developing their own social media offensive. It has only

been around for about seven years! Social media. Meanwhile, Labour, all

the Labour people I speak to on the Corbin Bryant jet, they think now

they just need to stick to the script. -- on the Jeremy Corbyn

project. If the election was before the end of the year, they'd pretty

much fight on the manifesto they just fought on? They would virtually

publish the same manifesto if it was this year. They don't need to do

more thinking? I think they do, because they didn't win either. The

context of the next election will be different when it comes. There's no

doubt, for now, they feel a sense of small letter M momentum and

justifiably so after the election result. There are dangers of

complacency and hubris, because they didn't win, but if there was an

election in the autumn, they were published as a manifesto with some

confidence. Is there any sense the honeymoon overfed Jeremy Corbyn? We

saw the discipline problem he had midweek with those MPs who backed

the Chuka Umunna amendment. In times gone by he had to live with it? It

would be a great mistake to think there's a real sense of unity in the

Parliamentary party, the problems that continued. It depends if you

are one of the Labour MPs who in by Jeremy Corbyn because you thought he

was unelectable, and those have gone a little quiet, or you didn't like

him because you fundamentally disagreed with his policy

principles. Those people are still not reconciled to his programme and

agenda. This is more than Mr Corbyn I would suggest. The people who run

the Labour Party are from the left. They are not going to consolidate...

Whether Mr Corbyn falls under the proverbial bus, why make a

difference, they will consolidate their grip, and we will see that at

the party conference, and even without Mr Corbyn, this is now a

party which is clearly of the left. They are in control. Absolutely, you

heard it from Richard Burgon, talking about the need to give

members more democratic control, therefore not the MPs, who are still

moderate or Blairite, whatever you want to call it. There will be an

almighty tussle. Jeremy Corbyn had given this very unexpected

semi-victory, didn't win that election but did better than he

thought, he could either be thoroughly consensual and get people

like Yvette Cooper and Chuka Umunna back on the front bench and move

towards, away from the hard left of the centre. All he could press on

determine with the hard left vision and that is precisely what he's

doing. That means undoubtably another war. You didn't win but

you've done really well, much better than 80% of your own party said you

would do. Indeed, they were all carping and getting ready for you to

fail, so they could move in on you. Why would you not to do but you know

you still have a problem with the Parliamentary party but you'd

consolidate your control of the conference, the National executive

committee, the grassroots, where you are in control? I understand what he

did with the Shadow Cabinet. To that extent, Tesak prominent members of

the Shadow Cabinet who have stood with him up until that election, to

bring these figures in who hadn't been with him, would have been an

act of betrayal, which is not his style. I can understand. There just

wasn't the space to bring them in. Whether later on he needs to be

pragmatic, as well as this conviction, Messiah figure, is a

different question. I think there will be times when he will need to

be. In the end, you can't run divided parties. A leader, one of

the responsibilities of leadership, is to try as much as possible to

bring people together. As well as just crushing them. I guess my point

is, this is not a party that suddenly reverts to where it was

after all when Mr Corbyn goes. This is a different Labour Party. That's

the point I'm making. It is a different Labour Party and in some

ways therein lies the opportunity for the Conservatives. There is very

clear blue water there. What the Conservatives have totally failed to

do is present themselves as a party that offers anything other than

misery. A party that offers opportunity, aspiration and isn't

just about making everything harder. The Daily Mail got it right when

they said Theresa May has a gloom bucket. We're running out of time

but I want to show you something here which may change the art of the

Sunday political interview. Take a look at this.

Are you absolutely clear that our environmental and food

standards will not be loosened in any way, as a result of leaving

the EU and doing free trade deals with other

Up until the end of this Parliament, farmers have been guaranteed that

You have suggested that very, very wealthy farmers,

who get huge amounts of money from the EU at the moment,

like Sir James Dyson and others, will get less money under

Were you very, very surprised to be brought back?

Michael Gove, thank you very much indeed.

Well, this could change the art of the interview. Yes! Thanks a lot.

Different politicians can do different things. Michael Gove is a

big character, has a lot of licensed to say yes when he doesn't

necessarily mean yes and we allow him to get away with it. Theresa May

trying to pull that trick, not so much. It would be nice in my

expensive she said yes or no to a question I asked! It would certainly

make these programmes a lot shorter. LAUGHTER

Nothing new about this. I listen to Michael Fallon tell the Armed Forces

this week there was plenty of money in their budgets, it doesn't make it

any more true. I am all in favour of those short interviews because there

would be more room for the panel! You could have three minute

political interviews and then half an hour of the panel afterwards. We

promise not to do yes or no answers. They don't have to stop at yes or

no, but I quite like when someone says yes or no and then explained

why it is yes or no. So many politicians of all parties answer

the question without getting to the yes or no bit. You just get a river

of fudge. Tom makes a good point. Michael Gove is newly confident,

he's just been reappointed to the Cabinet which he himself said he

didn't expect. Therefore for the time being he is unsackable. They

are all unsackable, they can all do this now! It does give you a bit

more space for that yes or no direction, you know, which could

land others, as Tom suggested, in trouble. He is in a strong place. I

have feeling it won't reinvent the Sunday interview! That said this

weekend, Wimbledon starts tomorrow so Joe will be back at 11 o'clock. I

will be back at the same time next Sunday.

Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

MAN: What makes you two make different from each other?

but I don't, like, love it as much as Lucy.

Oh, Arthur lives down the hill and I live down the hill.