03/11/2013 Sunday Politics West Midlands

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It began as

Plebgate, now it is Plodgate. The evidence of three police officers to

MPs is branded a great work of fiction. They tried to intimidate

the Grangemouth bosses, but in the end it was the union that

capitulated. I will ask Len McCluskey about Unite union's strong

arm tactics at Grangemouth and Falkirk. They preach women should be

sidelined and confined to the private sphere. They argued they

should be covered up. Our Midlands of voters opposed to

turn the UKIP factor into UKIP authority is investigating --

investing thousands of pounds in a GPS tracking system to keep tabs on

its staff. With me as always, the best and the

brightest political panel, Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt

who will be tweeting their humiliating climb-down is what they

got wrong last week in the programme. If this can happen it to

a Cabinet minister, what hope is there for anyone else? Thus the Home

Affairs Select Committee concluded what many already thought about the

treatment of Andrew Mitchell by three self-styled PC plebs. They met

him to clear the air over what did or did not happen when he was

prevented from ramming his bike through the Downing Street gates.

But the officers gave the media and inaccurate account of that meeting.

Two of them are even accused of misleading the Commons committee.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission will now reopen there

enquiry. This is not a story about Andrew Mitchell, it is about the

police. Keith Vaz is often in high dudgeon and this is the highest dad

and I have seen him in for some time. They could be held for

contempt of Parliament and technically they could be sent to

prison. It has blown up into an enormous story. I do not know what

is worse, the police trying to stitch up a Cabinet member and try

to mislead the media or the incompetence they have done it from

day one. That is quite good. I would sleep more soundly at night if I

knew the pleas were good at this. It is the incompetence that shocks me.

And this is just a sideshow. We are still waiting on the main report as

to what exactly happened outside Downing Street gates. But that not

will be good for the police either. The file has gone from the

Metropolitan police to the CPS, so we are limited about what we can

say. This is about the police Federation. They were set up under

statute in 1990 as a deal in which a police would not go on strike. This

is a political campaign to get a Cabinet minister out and the legacy

of this is the police Federation will have to be reformed. We will

keep an eye on it. They were Ed Miliband's union backers, they swung

the Labour leadership for him in 2010. Now the Unite union looks like

his biggest headache. The Sunday Times has seen extracts of the

report into the alleged vote rigging to select a Labour candidate in

Falkirk. There was evidence of coercion and Gregory as well as

deliberate attempt to frustrate the enquiry. We will be speaking to Len

McCluskey, the Unite union's General Secretary, in a moment. First out

the saga began an almost ended up with the loss of 800 jobs at a

petrochemical plant in Grangemouth. Unite were key players in the

Grangemouth dispute and the union headed by Len McCluskey has come

under fire for its intimidator Tariq tactics. In one instance

demonstrators complete with an inflatable rat picketed the home of

a INEOS director. The police were called. It was part of a strategy

the union called leverage. But turning up at people's houses seems

to represent an escalation. At the centre of the rout was Steve in

deals -- Stephen Denes. INEOS launched an investigation into him

as he was suspected of using company time to engineer the selection of

labour's candidate in Falkirk. That candidate was Karie Murphy, a friend

of Len McCluskey. Stevie Deans resigned last week and denies any

wrongdoing, but it capped a dramatic climb-down by Unite union. Len

McCluskey joins me now. Thanks to the Sunday Times we now know what is

in this labour report on the Falkirk vote rigging. Forgery, coercion

trickery, manipulation. You must be ashamed of how Unite union behaved

in Falkirk. The Sunday Times article is lazy journalism. There is nothing

new in the article. This was all dealt with by the Labour Party in

the summer. We rejected those allegations then and we said we had

done nothing wrong and both the Labour Party and the police in

Scotland indicated there had been no wrongdoing. The report itself says

you were trying to thwart the investigation. First you tried to

fix the selection of a candidate to get your woman in and then you

thwarted the investigation into the dirty deeds. The reality is the

Labour Party report was deeply flawed. The Labour Party then

instructed a solicitor, a lawyer, to do an in-depth investigation and

during that investigation they got to the bottom of what had happened

and they decided there was no wrongdoing whatsoever. At the time I

was so confident we had done nothing, I called for an independent

enquiry. They were forced to conclude there was no wrongdoing

because the people who originally complained changed their evidence

and we now know they did so because Unite union officials helped them to

rewrite their retraction and Stevie Deans approved it. That is not true.

We have had 1000 e-mails thrown into the public arena and what is that

all about? Who is leaking this? They showed the Unite union was rewriting

the retractions. This interview would go a lot better if you are

allowed me to finish the question that you asked. These e-mails were

put into the public arena by the PR company from INEOS. Why are they

doing this? The truth of the matter is that all of the investigations

that took place demonstrate there was nothing to answer. This idea

that the Unite union has rewritten and the evidence from the families

has been withdrawn, the families are a part of Stevie deems' family. They

clarified the position. Do you deny that union officials were involved

in the retractions? I deny it completely. This is important.

Independent solicitors to witness statements from the family and they

are the ones that were influencing the Labour Party with the position

is clarified and there is no case to answer. Do you deny Stevie deems saw

their retractions? It is his family. So you do not deny it? It is his

family. This is an ordinary, decent family who were faced with the full

weight of the pleas, a forensic solicitor. Of course they spoke to

Stevie Deans. This whole thing is a cesspit. Does it not need an

independent investigation? This is a trap being laid by Tory Central

office. They are making all the demands. The media, the Daily Mail,

the Sunday Times, the Conservative mouthpiece, they are laying tracks

for Ed Miliband and Ed Miliband should not fall into them. Since

when did it become part of an industrial dispute to send mobs to

the home of company families. This is a legitimate form of protest and

it is a silent protest. We believe if faceless directors are making

decisions that cripple communities, they cannot expect to simply drift

back to their own leafy suburbia and not be countable. This is silent

protest. It is lawful. It may be silent in Grangemouth, but it was

not silent elsewhere. You went with a giant rat, loud-hailers telling

everybody the neighbour was evil. No, we did not. You had

loud-hailers, you even encouraged passing children in Grangemouth to

join in. That is nonsense. Look at the rat. The reality is the

Grangemouth community was going to be decimated, Grangemouth was going

to become a ghost town. I reject totally this idea there were

loud-hailers and children involved. That is a lie perpetrated by the

Daily Mail. But you have used these tactics in other disputes. We have

used the tactics in other disputes, but we have not used loud-hailers at

people's homes. Because the labour laws are so restrictive we have to

look at every available means that we can protest. It is an outrage, an

absolute outrage, that this is happening to British workers in the

21st-century. It could not happen elsewhere. Is not intimidation the

wider hallmark of your union? You were quoted as saying to do whatever

it takes during your attempts to take over the Labour Falkirk

constituency. You were instructing to dig out the nasty stuff on your

opponents. That is not true. Let's see these e-mails? This is a con

trick. Nobody is looking to dig out... This is the words of your

legal services advisor. Unite has tried to instigate a revival of

trade union values within the Labour Party. That is what Ed Miliband

wanted us to do. As soon as we started to be in any way

ineffective, there were screams and howls of derision. When the company

started to investigate Stevie Deans, your friend, your campaign manager,

that he was using company time to moonlight on the job, you called

INEOS and said unless you stop the investigation we will bring

Grangemouth to a standstill. I never said that at all. You brought it to

a standstill. We never brought it to a standstill, the company did. Who

says that I said that we would bring it to a standstill? You have read it

in the newspapers. You should not believe everything. I did not make

that threat to the management. You carried the threat out. You

instigated an overtime ban and a work to rule. And that is what

Grangemouth to a standstill because the company decided to close the

petrochemical site down. Because Stevie Deans was suspended due

introduced industrial action? Our members in Grangemouth felt he was

being unfairly treated. In the end you're grandstanding almost cost

Scotland is most important industrial facility. The day was

saved by your total capitulation. Grandstanding, capitulation and

humiliation are grand phrases. There is nothing about capitulation. Len

McCluskey did not wake up one day and decide to have a dispute with

INEOS. The workers in that factory democratically elect their shop

stewards to represent them and to express to management their concerns

and their views. That is what happened with INEOS. Jack Straw has

condemned your union's handling of Grangemouth as a catastrophe. Have

you considered your position? Jack Straw and others in the Labour

Party, you have to ask them what their agenda is. I am not interested

in what he says. The truth of the matter is we responded to the

requirements and needs of our members. At a mass meeting last

Monday 100% supported their shop stewards and their union. We will

continue to stand shoulder to shoulder with our members when they

are faced with difficult situations. You have lost all the union rights.

You have had to agree to a no strike rule, you have lost pension rights.

We have not lost rights at all, we are still working with the company

to implement its survival plan. The Prime Minister is always attacking

unions and just lately he has taken to praising the automotive

industry. Jaguar Land Rover, Foxhall, BMW at Cowley, they are all

Unite union members were the shop stewards are engaged positively to

implement survival plans and to make a success for the company. That is

what we do, but by the same token we stand shoulder to shoulder with our

members who are in struggle and we will always do that and we will not

be cowed by media attacks on us Is your leadership not proving to be as

disastrous for the members as Arthur Scargill was for the NUM? My

membership is growing. I am accountable to my members, two are

executive, and the one thing they will know is that when they want me

standing shoulder to shoulder with them when they have a problem, I

will be there, despite the disgraceful attacks launched on us

by the media. "A country ready to welcome your

investment which values your friendship and will never exclude

anyone because of their race, religion, colour or creed." The

words of the Prime minister at the World Islamic Economic Forum which

was hosted for the first time in London this week. The PM's warm

words are sure to be welcomed by British Muslims who have endured a

spate of negative headlines. There's been the controversy over the

wearing of the veil, attitudes to women, and the radicalisation of

some young British Muslims. In a moment I'll be talking to the

Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq Murad.

First - here's Giles Dilnot. The call to Friday prayers at the east

London Mosque which has strong links with the Muslim Council of Britain,

one of the more vocal groups amongst British Muslims. Despite the fact it

frequently happens, it is neither helpful nor accurate to describe the

British Muslim community. There are so many different sects,

traditions, cultures and nationalities, it is more accurate

to describe the British Muslim communities, but there is one

question being put to them - are they doing enough internally to

address some challenging issues Are they willing to confront

radicalisation, attitudes to non-muslins, two women, and cases of

sexual exploitation in a meaningful way? A number of them say no, not

nearly enough. This former jihad de has spent ten years telling young

Muslim teenagers how they can reject extremist radicalisation, using

Outward Bound courses and community work, but he and others doing this

work thing -- think some elders are failing the youngsters. This has

been going on for decades, one figures -- thing is said in public

to please people but in private something very different is being

said and the messages are being confused. Some of the young people,

it pushes them further into a space where they are vulnerable for

radical recruiters. For many Muslim youngsters, life is about living 1's

faith within an increasingly secular society, a struggle not helped if

rigid interpretations of the Koran are being preached, say some

sectors. Some practices often don't make sense in 21st-century Britain,

and you are perhaps creating obstacles if you stick to those and

it is perhaps better to let go of those cultural problems, especially

when they need to clear injustices like forced marriage, reticence to

talk about grooming for example or discrimination against women. There

is a long list but I am very clear that in fact the bad Muslim is the

one who sticks to unflinching, narrow dogmatic fundamentalist

perception of religion. One issue often focused on is the wearing of

minicab. Polling suggests 80% of Britons would favour a ban in public

places. -- the niqab. Many people don't seem to recognise the legacy

of the niqab. Many people preach that women should be sidelined and

that they are sexual objects that should be covered up and the

preservation of morality falls on their shoulders. The Muslim Council

of Britain recently got praise for holding a conference on combating

sexual exploitation. In the wake of abuse cases that had involved

predominantly Pakistani men. For one man who has followed the story for

some years, the Muslim Council of Britain needs to do much more. We

need to get along together and if things like attitudes towards the

normal slim girl in stark contrast to the expression of honour and

chastity of the Muslim girl, your sister or daughter, are such that

actions that would be an fought off with a slim girl becomes permissible

with a white girl, then we are all in trouble. To some, attitudes to

women are not limited to sexual interactions at the very structures

of life in Muslim communities and indeed the Muslim Council of Britain

itself. I would like to ask the Muslim Council of Britain what they

are doing about the fact that very few mosques give voices to

are doing about the fact that very the fact that someone women are

experiencing female genital mutilation and forced marriages

what about the women who are getting married and their marriages are not

being registered and they are being left homeless and denied maintenance

rights, what about the fact there are sharia rights that have been

found to be discriminating against women, and the fact there are men in

this country who continue to hold misogynistic views about women, what

are you doing? The occasional press release will not solve this problem

of a deeply patriarchal community. That all of these issues can be

exploited to the point of Islam phobia is not doubted, but many

Muslims feel that unless the communities do tackle this openly, a

big cultural gap will exist between the two.

And the Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq

Murad, joins me now. One visible sign that sets muslins aside is the

veils that cover women's faces. Do you think it makes them impossible

to be part of mainstream society? The niqab is not an obligatory

requirement. But do you accept that those who wear it are cutting

themselves off from mainstream society? Some people do, and whilst

wearing niqab, some of them are working in various walks of life

successfully and it is seen as a faith requirement, but it is a red

herring in the sense that it applies to such a small number of Muslim

girls. For many Muslim preachers, isn't separation precisely the point

of the niqab? Certainly not, if you look at the Muslim women in the

public sphere, we have many very successful women. But not the ones

who are veiled. Not in the public arena as such, but the veil is a

practice which is practised by a very small number. Do you favour

it? I personally think it is not a requirement. But do you think women

should wear the veil? I think it is wrong to force women to wear the

veil. I asked if in your opinion women should wear the veil? It is

important not to force women to wear the veil. Should they of their free

choice where the veil? A lot of individuals do things out of their

free choice which I do not approve of, I don't think it is conducive it

helps their cause, but I do not have the right to take their choice away

from them. I am still unsure if you think it is a good thing or a bad

thing. Are not many Muslim women in this country being forced by Muslim

preachers and often their male relations who want to keep Muslim

women their place? As I said, it is wrong for anyone to force Muslim

women. But how would we ever know in a family if a woman was being

forced? Exactly, we don't know what is going on in people 's homes and

what pressure is being applied. I want you to look at this picture,

very popular on Islamic websites, and it shows the women who is

wearing the niqab having a straight route to heaven, and the other

Muslim woman dressed in western gear condemned to hell. Do you consider

that a proper message for Muslim women? Not at all, I don't. So any

Islamic websites in Britain... The Muslim Council of Britain is an

organisation of five affiliates from across the country and this is not

coming from any of them. As I said, those minority views propagated by

individuals should not be used to represent Muslim community. So that

would not have the support of the Muslim Council of Britain? It would

not have the support. What about the Muslim free school that requires

children as young as 11 to wear a black veil outside of school? Do you

agree with that? I am not sure exactly what the policy is... I have

just told you, do you agree that girls as young as 11 should wear a

black burka outside of school? I don't think it should be imposed on

anybody. But this is the desired dress School of the Muslim females.

I am asking for your view. I said it at the beginning that I do not think

it should be imposed. Would you send your daughter to a school that would

wear a black burka at the age of 11? Would you? No. It seems that some

muslins are determined to segregate young Muslim girls right from the

start to very early from society. It is not their segregation as such, I

would say that there are faith schools, if you look at an Islamic

girls school in Blackburn in a traditional setting, it has come the

top of the league table this year in the secondary school league tables.

But it doesn't make 11-year-olds wear black burkas. Many of those

girls go on to have a successful career. Not wearing black burkas. I

am sure there are examples of women who do have successful careers.

There is a very conservative movement from the continent on

Islam, and the issue supposedly based on Islamic law on their

website. Here is one of their recent judgements. The female is encouraged

to remain within the confines of her home as much as possible, she should

not come out of the home without need and necessity. What do you

think of that? We need to say the whole context of that quote. They

are saying they should stay at home as much as possible, do you agree

with that? I see many Muslim women who are walking about... But this is

what the mosque is recommending women should do. The practice is

quite the contrary. Let me show you another one. Another Fatwa. Do you

agree with that? These have been picked out from material dating back

to different cultural settings and in practice they are not applied.

This is advice being given as we speak. This is not being practised.

Do you agree with it? No, not at all. These are from the DL Monday

mosques, how come 72 of these mosques are affiliated to your

counsel? There may be publications from one of their scholars, but they

have been written in countries abroad and translated. This is

advice being given to young women now. They are affiliated to the

Muslim Council of Britain. Do you ever speak to them about that? The

Muslim Council is a very broad organisation. We are working on lots

of common issues to create a community which positively

integrates. Did you ever speak to them to say this is not appropriate

for British Muslims? There may be certain ad buys and publications

available, but people make their choices. So it is OK for your

organisation to issue things like that? Many of these things will fall

under scrutiny and we need to create that. Why do only 26% of British

mosques have facilities for women? If you go back to the requirement of

prayer, it was not obligatory for women to come to the masks to

prayer. When a poorer community began putting up mosques at the very

beginning in terraced houses... Did you have a policy to encourage them?

Is it on your website? It is in our practices that 20% of the council

have to be female. Coming out of this movement there is a conscious

stream of superiority between Muslims and non-Muslims. Look at

this quote. He is a well-known picture in this country.

That is what he wants to stop. I disagree with that. We believe we

live in this society and Muslims in any society of the world, and they

have historically lived as minorities in many countries... You

would this associate yourself from that? Why do you allow people like

that to be affiliated to you? The requirement is for any organisation

to be affiliated is that they are bound by the Charity commission's

rules and regulations. We only accept those who are under the law

of this country. This is a matter of taste. Let me move on to a bigger

issue. In 2009 you signed the Istanbul dash-mac the Istanbul

declaration was signed. Do you still support it? No, we never signed it

or supported it. One of your leading lights signed it. In the media

mainstream he defended his position. You have this associated yourself

from it? What is wrong with that? I am not sure about the declaration

because we disassociated ourselves. Before reading it? We did not sign

it. You have not read it? I do not know all the aspects of the

declaration, but at the time in the national newspapers and media there

was a discussion and a debate and it was highlighted that that was not

was a discussion and a debate and it what was meant by the declaration.

When did you decide so is the yourself from the declaration? From

day one. We never signed it. The East London Mosque which you are

personally closely associated with is the venue for a number of

extremist speakers, who espoused extremist positions. In 2009 the

mosque posted a video and presentation by somebody described

by the UN Security Council as an Al-Qaeda leader supporter. Another

speaker described Christians and Jews as Phil. You have had a jihad

is supporter of the Taliban there. Why do you do nothing to stop

extremists like that at this mask with which you are associated with?

We do not have anything to do with any rhetoric that condones or

supported violence. We issue guidelines and the mosque itself is

a registered charity which has its own rules and regulations, but it is

a very large mosques and lots of organisations book and come and told

their gatherings. We rent out the facilities. You were prepared to

speak alongside a man who saluted suicide bombers, and said 9/11 was a

Zionist conspiracy. Why would you share a platform like that? I did

not share a platform like that. Different organisations come and

have conferences here. Why did you agree? I did not agree with that. I

completely reject that. When you add all this up the attitude to women,

the alliance with the most fundamentalist Islamic mosques, the

toleration of intolerant views, a willingness for you to be counted

among them, why should anybody of goodwill, either a Muslim or a

non-Muslim, regard the MCB as a good force? It is an organisation which

embraces different organisations which are affiliated in the Muslim

community. You have taken snippets of certain individual views which

are not the views of our affiliates. It would be unfair to represent our

view based on those which you have highlighted in this programme. The

work that we do is quite clear and is on our website. They are all

associated with you, but we will have to leave it there. You are

watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up: I will be talking to

Hello once again from the Midlands. I'm Patrick Burns. And our guests

today are a coming`together of one of the "none of the above" parties,

and "one of the above" in the Government. Lorely Burt, Liberal

Democrat MP for Solihull, is Danny Alexander's Parliamentary Private

Secretary. Whereas, far removed from the Westminster village, Felicity

Norman represents the Greens on Herefordshire Council.

First up today, the Big Six energy companies, hauled before the Commons

Energy and Climate Change Committee including E.ON ` German`owned but

with their UK head office in Coventry. They've all been accused

of acting like a cartel, allegedly. Of profiteering, allegedly. But

E.ON's boss said, despite what politicians of all shades have been

telling us, the energy market is far from "broken". He's written to the

Prime Minister and the Energy Secretary calling for a thorough

review of market competition. We need a thorough competition

commission investigation and I believe it would be ready helpful to

depoliticise the debate, get expert in to look at it so we can really

sort it out once and for all. Mr Cocker also said the green levies

which account for around 8% of most people's bills was "a regressive

poll tax" and should be switched to general taxation. That's exactly

what David Cameron has said, over the heads of his Liberal Democrat

partners. It is regressive? What we have been doing is asking the energy

companies to incorporate some of the costs like, for example, subsidising

and helping the poorest families enabling families with very

installation to dashed bad installation to make things better.

I do think, speaking personally, Mr Cameron has a point. It is very

important we don't lose the green levies. And if we find a more

progressive way of making sure that we do fit our energy system for the

21st century and a light don't go out, that's probably one of the

areas we may come to agreement on. Felicity, there's never been a time

when these green levies has been less popular and there is a danger

the wider environment arguments get down and. And they have never been

more important. It is vital we support them. It is an illusion and

constantly we are being told that the economy is more important than

the environment in the short term and it's a nonsense. They work

together. What is good for the environment is good for the economy.

The Chancellor says he doesn't want to be a world leader fighting

climate change, we can't do it by ourselves. The rest of the world is

way ahead of us. Much of Europe have left standing. We should be ashamed

haven't done a better job over the last few years. Are the governments

green credentials looking tattered? No, the aim has always been to be

the greenest government ever. That is a joke these days. There are huge

financial pressures on families, we understand that. We have to make

sure that we make sure from an economic point of view we get lots

of jobs out of the green agenda that also people pay their bills. Coming

up a little later in the programme. Why Midlands voters could be about

to turn the so`called 'UKIP factor' into 'UKIP fact'. Six months to go

to the European elections and they've never been more confident of

transforming our politics forever. We'll have more on this, in a few

minutes' time. It's brought rebellion to the

Midlands Tory shires, and a warning of 'open warfare' in the Labour

Party, from the leader of our biggest city. In a week that saw the

start of the Parliamentary epic paving the way for high`speed rail,

ministers found a funny way of confirming their support for HS2: by

managing`down our expectations of the economic benefits, and admitting

they'd talked too much too soon about speed, and not enough about

the extra capacity it would deliver. Here's Our Transport Correspondent

Peter Plisner. The week began with more sceptical

signals from Labour. Lord Mandelson re`stating his opposition to HS2.

Frankly, there was too much of the argument that if everyone else has a

high`speed train, we should have won two. Regardless of need, regardless

of costs and regardless of alternatives. But the Transport

Secretary was having none of it. He said HS2 will help revive some of

England's major cities. If you talk to the leaders of learning and City

Council or Manchester City council or Leeds, they all tell you how

vital the project is for their cities. This argument that somehow

all of HS2 will benefit London is not something which is shared. And

Lorely's boss also had a blunt message for Labour doubters. What I

say to Labour is if you are concerned about the economic health

of the whole country, HS2 can transform the economic geography of

the country. More details about journey times have also been

released: Stafford to London, a trip which currently takes an hour and a

quarter will be cut to 53 minutes. Thursday and back to the Commons as

the bill to pave the way for the new line cleared it's latest hurdle. The

parliamentary progress of HS2 is on track but is, it seems, anything but

high speed. It's a slow marathon. Peter Plisner reporting.

And incidentally we hear that about 50 Labour MPs and peers met the

Shadow Transport Secretary Mary Creagh last week demanding an end to

the party's mixed messages on HS2, and expressing their determination

to see it through. She subsequently put out a statement confirming

Labour's support, blaming "Government mismanagement" for

pushing`up costs, and urging David Cameron to get a grip. Felicity,

your party did well in Warwickshire by opposing HS2 but why are you not

trumpeting this project because it presumably would mean fewer regional

flights, it would get freight of the roads and these trains are more

energy efficient. At first glance it seems the case but increasingly the

evidence is the opposite. This is a vanity project which we cannot

afford and this money should be going into improving rail across the

board, the rest of the rail system but also alternative ways of

travelling. The accountants say it could be worth ?3 billion to the

West Midlands. These arguments are disputed. There is no consensus. You

can spend that money better insulating every home in the

country. If we talk about transport, why did we invest in railway and

public transport and buses and let's get people out of cars and onto

their feet and bicycles. You have a constituency interest, are you

saying jobs and the economy trump the environment arguments? I think

that we would be letting down the people of the West Midlands, the

whole region and letting down industry if we were to reject

high`speed rail. It is so important. We need to we distribute

the balance, it's not all about London, it is about the Midlands and

the North of England as well. We have to bring prosperity to those

areas. Many of the arguments suggest London will benefit at the cost of

the regions. There are really so varied views. That is one argument,

it needs to be taken into account. Felicity is right that there are

many varied arguments. You speak to one person who says one thing and

another says something else. What is indisputable is it will bring

economic benefits to the region and we need it. Could we perhaps soften

the edge of some of the environmental arguments against it,

the Warwickshire Conservative MP would like to see the 40 to reduce

the environmental damage and strengthen the case. Well, a lots of

time and energy has been put into getting the route we have got is

environmentally sensitive and I have spoken to HS2 and they have many

projects where they are going to minimise any environmental impact.

You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. You cannot and though

the economic argument is as strong as the environmental, it is claimed

it will be beneficial in terms of reducing carbon, there are strong

arguments refuting that absolutely, the lands take is massive and in

every way it is a disaster. There are better ways of spending the

money. Six months to go to the European elections, and the UK

Independence Party are confident they can improve on the two Midlands

seats they won last time, and reap the rewards of that 'UKIP factor',

so`called. With double`digit poll ratings knocking the Liberal

Democrats into fourth place, a recent survey by the former Tory

deputy chairman Lord Ashcroft suggested they're doing particularly

well in the vital, marginal, Parliamentary seats, of which we

have so many in our part of the country. Our political reporter

Susana Mendonca has been doing her best to separate factor from

fiction. Battling for customers. It's what

every salesman does and politicians are no different. Especially in a

place like this. Yes, Dudley ` or rather Dudley North is where I'm

setting out my stall today. This constituency is what's known in the

Westminster village as a key marginal ` Labour currently has it `

and the Conservatives want to grab hold of it. But there's another

party around here that's hoping to take some of the trade. The UK

Independence Party in full "salesman" mode. We are picking up

votes from across the spectrum. People are prepared to vote for us

on the issue other than Europe. Roll up roll up ` is UKIP selling itself

to you? I do not know what it is. Who are they? We have the Tories,

Labour, UKIP. He will you vote for? I have lost trust in all of the

parties. Labour? Are used to vote for Labour but they've lost millions

of voters. What is better about UKIP? They will be fairer to the

British people. They seem good because they were close the doors

for other people, the EU people are getting all the jobs. A straw poll `

yes ` but UKIP has sold itself beyond expectations before ` winning

two European election seats in the West Midlands last time. This

liberal Labour con do not believe in democracy. It has been plagued by

infighting though and both those MEP's have since left including this

one who's launching his own rival party this week. But why can't UKIP

keep hold of its MEPs? I was rejected because I was asking too

many questions internally and stop these people want to get on in UKIP

they had better not ask certain questions. There are a lot of new

faces at UKIP and some have already courted controversy. The one on the

left, for his comments on sharia law. And the one on the right left

the Tories after being pictured with a controversial choice in cuddly

toys. When those photographs were taken out was making a point, I was

not even saying they are a good thing, I was accused of all sorts of

things and I left and came to UKIP. It is free speech, I can discuss

things and I have come across as one of the strongest against racism you

could find in politics. The most familiar of UKIP faces has been

trying to change his party to professionalise it. But will the new

faces be able to sell UKIP not only at a European level but also at

parliamentary elections as well? Susana Mendonca down at the market.

And one of those potential 'new faces' is Councillor Jill Seymour.

She's the chair of Kynnersley Parish Council in Shropshire. But more to

the point, she'll be in poll position on UKIP's list of

candidates in next year's European elections, which makes her a racing

certainty to be one of the seven MEPs representing us here, in the

new Parliament. We met in that film the two UKIP MEPs elected last time

and they have left the party. They are planning to stand for other

parties against you. It makes UKIP look pretty shambolic and

dysfunctional. I disagree. These people have decided to go

independent, we wish them well but the party is moving forward. Is

there a decent prospects you might defect somewhere else? Absolutely

not. Put it together, we heard about the broadening the message away from

the defining theme of Europe but doesn't it look like a pick and mix

of populist issues, disconnected, anti`HS2 when it suits you,

programme schools when it suits you. Patrick, I believe the party is for

common sense and peoples voice. It is what the public want. Doesn't

common sense and plight my point, all things to all people,

ill`defined? I disagree. UKIP has moved forward, we have cross

sections of policies. Yes, the EU is a major one, but there are major

local policies, we believe in people having a voice. As the months ticked

down, there will be greater scrutiny and the indications are about the

party conference and the Bill Etheridge incident that your party

doesn't stand up well to scrutiny. I think that is the media that like to

pick on individuals. They are not media inventions. Bill focuses on

local issues and he is very good at that. You are basically a repository

of protest, you are not just about Europe, you represent a disaffection

from the other big parties. Again, I disagree because when people feel

the politicians are not listening and they do not care about their

issues, UKIP have been able to pick a cross`section of those people that

feel disenchanted. And that is why UKIP is doing so well. The evidence

is that UKIP is doing very well because of the disaffection, people

do not trust the larger parties. It is easy to stand on the sidelines

and carp about all manner of different things. The Liberal

Democrats were a party of protest, we are now in government and I hope

we have demonstrated that we are responsible party, we have good

economic credentials, what would happen if UKIP were to to win

parliamentary seats... Which they are confident of doing. They will

then have to stand up to proper scrutiny and then we will see just

what they are made of. The other point is protest votes, both UKIP

and the Greens have benefited, it is a crowded part of the battlefield. I

am not entirely sure about the momentum. If you look at this area,

the Greens have 18 councillors on major councils, UKIP have lost their

two any peas. I do not understand the business. This business of

giving a voice and listening and openness, the two things I challenge

UKIP on our climate scepticism which is astonishing and almost criminal

in this day and age and the other one is the bigotry of refusing gay

people an opportunity to marry. I do not understand those views. On

having councillors, UKIP has 147 councillors and who knows? We have a

lot of councillors which we have tripled or quadrupled. But the vote

on HS2, the majority want HS2. Go to the counties where HS2 is going

through their land and the government will have a big issue

because the public are not behind it. It is a white elephant. We are

not against high but invading the land. We heard that Nigel Farage

surrounded himself with yes people and the perception is it is a

one`man band. I disagree with watch were saying. I do not agree with

everything the party always does but I believe totally in the principle

of the party. We work together as a team. For us to get to where we are

going, we stand together. And I you are climate change denier? I am

totally against wind farms. They are blotting the land. It is over

subsidised, we have green taxes which we are against. Let's look at

what people are suffering. Look what people will suffer in the future!

Thank you to you for being here. Time now for our regular round`up of

the political week in the Midlands in 60 seconds, brought to us today

by our Coventry and Warwickshire Political Reporter, Sian Grzeszczyk.

Is burning rubbish the answer to cutting energy bills? Scientists at

Aston University say they can turn almost any waste into fuel to

generate electricity. Politicians take note! Network Rail opened a new

depot on the site of the old Peugeot Factory near Coventry. The parts and

distribution centre will create a hundred new jobs. Ever wanted to set

your own council budget? Warwickshire County Council is

letting local taxpayers have a go online. They need to save ?92

million but it's not as easy as it looks. We were not able to balance

the books. Coventry City FC want new talks with the council about moving

back to the Ricoh Arena. They're currently playing their home games

in Northampton but want to buy the Ricoh. And the government has lost a

Supreme Court appeal over it's "back to work" scheme. Birmingham graduate

Cait Reilly objected to being told she had to work without pay at

Poundland. Although the Supreme Court did

reject the argument that the scheme was "forced labour". But this is

still a set`back for the government's plans. There were

flaws. The government has already put forward retrospective

legislation to remedy the floors. There is no question that the idea

of ensuring that people do work and do not have a life of idleness while

taxpayers are funding their benefits is appropriate. You are a teacher

Felicity. There is a lot of sympathy for the case but there is a certain

amount of benefit in experiencing the routine of work. I would not

argue with that. It seemed a complete waste of her skills in that

instance. She could have been doing other things and it's a complete

myth that the majority of people on benefits or accepting welfare are

lazy layabouts. It is nonsense. It is appalling the way this myth is

perpetuated. The majority want to work and want the opportunity to

develop their skills. I wish we could pursue this but this is where

we have to draw the line. Thank you very much. And after a week in which

the West Midlands Police Commissioner proposed to use ?60

million of the reserve funds to recruit over 500 new officers, next

Sunday as we near the first anniversary of the PCC elections, we

examine what impact they have made. And we'll be joined here by the

policy research organisation who helped to devise this new set`up in

the first place. Now they want the commissioners to have even more

powers, over the prisons, and the courts. This though

Thank you for coming, great to see you. Andrew, back to you. Labour 's

relationship with Unite and other issues all to be discussed in the

Week Ahead and we're joined now by the shadow business secretary Chuka

Umunna. First I would like to get your reaction to the interview I did

earlier with the General Secretary of the union Unite - Len McCluskey.

Let's look at what he said. This is a trap being laid by Tory Central

office. They are making all of the demands and the Daily Mail, the

Sunday Times, are you telling me they are not the conservative

mouthpiece in the media? They are laying traps for Ed Miliband and he

should not fall into them. Though it is all a Tory plot. Len McCluskey

denies a lot of the allegations put, but let me be clear in an industrial

dispute, the use of aggressive or intimidatory tactics by either side

is totally unacceptable. Do you think it is wrong for Unite to send

its members to the homes of managers? I don't know what happened

in that particular case, but I think you should keep people 's families

out of these things and if you are doing something that can upset

particularly children, that is a bad thing. I know he denied a number of

things you put to him. We now know some of the content of Labour 's own

report into what happened at Falkirk and they found all sorts of things -

forgery, coercion, trickery and even that their own investigation was

being thwarted by Unite. What should Labour do next? I have not read the

report. We are told that the latest allegations that have been made is

something that the police are looking into so that is not

something I think would be appropriate for me to comment on. We

learned Labour Party members in the Falkirk constituency have complained

to the leader of the Scottish party about a lack of action by the Labour

Party on what happened in Falkirk. I am not part of the Scottish party

and that is news to me. But the police have indicated they are

looking at the new information that has come to light. It is a bit like

the 1980s and there was an electrifying moment when Neil

Kinnock took on the militant tendency in Bournemouth in 1985 Ed

Miliband has sort of tried to take on the Unite union, but it has not

worked. Does then not need to be an electrifying moment for Ed Miliband?

Your own paper has praised him for seeking to address the issues we

have in politics and the disconnection from people. In many

respects the situation in Falkirk categorises the process of further

ongoing change where we are trying to establish a better relationship

with individual trade union members. In parts of my constituency, some of

the most deprived parts, we had people queueing round the block to

vote. I do not think the issue is that people are not political, but

they have never felt so far from party politics as they do now and

that is why Ed Miliband announced this big chains about how we do

things in the Labour Party, so we change structures in the Labour

Party that were set up in the 2 th century. The reform of the way in

which we connect and our relationship with the union puts us

in a good position because we have this relationship between the 3

million working people who ensure our public services function. At

Grangemouth INEOS stood up to unite. At Grangemouth and Falkirk

Labour rolled over to the Unite union. I do not agree with that I'd

just explained the reason. I do not think it is fair to ask people to

give evidence in an enquiry on the basis of the report will be

confidential and then to publish it after. But if somebody is trying to

take over a Labour constituency to send an MP of their choice to our

Parliament, that should not be secret, that should be public. Ed

Miliband acted very decisively. That constituency party is still in

special measures as I understand it. This idea that somehow the Unite

union runs the Labour Party, they do not. The special measures mean

according to Eric Joyce, that an ally of Stevie Deans is chairing the

meeting. I am interested in the Tory suggestion that they would offer

free Tory party membership to union members. I then moving onto your

turf? We do not know exactly all the facts and the truth of the

allegations that have been made On your point I think it is healthy the

Conservatives are looking to recruit trade union members. A lot of their

rhetoric is very negative in respect of trade unions. If you look at

Unison a third of the members vote Conservative. In Unite union some of

their members vote Tory. I think trade unions have a lot to bring to

our country. It is one of the things many up and down the country will

find very frustrating, a lot of the good work that unions do if it gets

tarnished with all the negative stuff you see... Unite are working

in partnership with GM and the senior management in Ellesmere Port

and the government ensured that we kept that plant open. That gets

overlooked by all of this. Do you not think the bolshie behaviour from

unions are motivated not by strength, but by weakness. Unite

know they cannot paralyse the country in the way their forebears

used to be able to do. Their penetration rates in the private

sector is 11%. The union movement is weaker than it was before I was

born. Some of that truck killers and bad behaviour either death spasms of

their movement rather than something that is motivated by the fact they

can't paralyse the country. You have two increase the membership. But

there is an issue about the public perception of trade unions. It is

right they should be a voice of protest and anger and stand up for

their members when it is necessary. But people join unions for their

aspiration. The unions do a lot so that people can move up in their

workplace. That profile needs to come across as strongly as the

protest part. I want to move on to business. The head of the CBI has

said that Labour's pro-enterprise credentials have suffered a setback.

He said that in relation to Ed Miliband's speech. I was on the

radio earlier. If you look at the things in the speech, some of that

was going to be uncomfortable for some of the countries and they tend

to be companies represented by the CBI, like energy companies, like

land developers, a lot of the big business lose out from is not doing

the corporate tax cut. The energy freeze is going to help over 2.

million businesses that have been hit by high energy bills. The

business community has said we had to bring the public sector finances

back into balance. That is why we decided to switch the money being

used to reduce corporation tax and use that to help a much greater

variety of businesses by doing a business rate cut. It is all pro

enterprise. They also seem to be critical of your new idea of a

living wage. They are not critical. It would not be compulsory, but

there would be a tax credit if they paid it. It is good for business

because if people are earning more than they are more productive. It is

good for the employee and good for us as well because it means we are

not having to subsidise people to be paid to the extent we have with tax

credits and benefits. Everybody benefits from this. We all know

after 2009 we need to have bold change. Does Labour paid a living

wage? We have got over 20 of our councils signed up to doing so and

we have made commitments in respect to Whitehall. Does the Labour Party

pay it? I believe so. Would it not be worth checking? Do you get a

living wage? Yes, of course I do. I understand we paid a living wage.

What does it feel like for Tristram Hunt who has taken over your mantle

as Labour's next leader? Is that a relieved or are you angry? He is one

of my best friends and at the end of the day if we got obsessed with this

soap opera stuff we would never get anything done and we are working

together to make sure we have got the right skills in our workforce.

That is all for today. The daily politics is on all week. I will be

here again next weekend at 12:2 pm after the Remembrance Day service at

the Cenotaph. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.

Planet Earth - it's unique. It has life.

To understand why, we're going to build a planet...up there.

There were the objects that were making the Earth.

We're now weightless. That's how our planet started.

Your arms are a little bit long Is that as small as they go?

This is like every shopping trip I've ever been on.