09/03/2014 Sunday Politics West Midlands


09/03/2014

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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:36.:00:43.

He's a man on a mission. But is it mission impossible? Iain Duncan

:00:44.:00:46.

Smith has started the radical reform of our welfare state. No tall order.

:00:47.:00:50.

And not everything's going to plan. We'll be talking to the man himself.

:00:51.:00:55.

Nick Clegg's hosting his party's spring conference in York. He's

:00:56.:00:58.

getting pretty cosy with the party faithful. Not so cosy, though, with

:00:59.:01:02.

his Coalition partners. In fact, things are getting a wee bit nasty.

:01:03.:01:06.

We'll be talking to his right-hand man, Danny Alexander.

:01:07.:01:10.

And are all politicians self-obsessed? Don't all shout at

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once. We'll be examining And have been campaigning for their

:01:14.:01:21.

hospitals. The In London, we're focusing on the

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biggest social housing landlords. Can Southwark Council really build

:01:28.:01:30.

11,000 new homes in the next three decades?

:01:31.:01:35.

And with me, as always, three of the best and the brightest political

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panel in the business. At least that's what it says in the Sunday

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Politics template. Back from the Oscars empty handed, Helen Lewis,

:01:45.:01:49.

Janan Ganesh and Iain Martin. Yes, three camera-shy hacks, who've never

:01:50.:01:52.

taken a selfie in their life. We'll be coming to that later. They just

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like to tweet. And they'll be doing so throughout the programme.

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Welcome. Now, first this morning, the Liberal

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Democrat Spring Conference in York. I know you speak of nothing else!

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The Yorkshire spring sunshine hasn't made the Lib Dems think any more

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kindly of their Coalition partners. Indeed, Tory bashing is now the Lib

:02:11.:02:14.

Dem default position. Here's Danny Alexander speaking yesterday.

:02:15.:02:20.

Repairing the economy on its own isn't enough. We have to do it

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fairly. isn't enough. We have to do it

:02:22.:02:31.

the agenda a decision to cut taxes, income taxes, for working people.

:02:32.:02:36.

Now, conference, note that word - forced. We have had to fight for

:02:37.:02:41.

this at the last election and at every budget and at every Autumn

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Statement since 2010 and what a fight it has been.

:02:46.:02:53.

Danny Alexander joins us now. Are we going to have to suffer 14 months of

:02:54.:02:59.

you and your colleagues desperately trying to distance yourself from the

:03:00.:03:03.

Tories? It's not about distancing ourselves. It's about saying, " this

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is what we as a party have achieved in government together with the

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Conservatives". And saying, " this is what our agenda is for the

:03:16.:03:19.

future" . It's not just about the fact that this April we reach that

:03:20.:03:24.

?10,000 income tax allowance that we promised in our manifesto in 20 0

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but also that we want to go further in the next parliament and live that

:03:30.:03:36.

to ?12,500, getting that over a 2-term Liberal Democrat government.

:03:37.:03:39.

It's very important for all parties to set out their own agenda, ideas

:03:40.:03:44.

and vision for the future, whilst also celebrating what we're

:03:45.:03:47.

achieving jointly in this Coalition, particularly around the fact that we

:03:48.:03:51.

are, having taken very difficult decisions, seeing the economy

:03:52.:03:57.

improving and seeing jobs creation in this country, which is something

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I'm personally very proud and, as the Coalition, we have achieved and

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wouldn't have if it hadn't been for the decisions of the Liberal

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Democrats. Lets try and move on You've made that point about 50

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times on this show alone. You now seem more interested in Rowling with

:04:14.:04:16.

each other than running the country, don't you? -- rowing with each

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other. I think we are making sure we take the decisions, particularly

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about getting our economy on the right track. Of course, there are

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lots of things where the Conservatives have one view of the

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future and we have a different view and it's quite proper that we should

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set those things out. There are big differences between the Liberal

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Democrats and the Conservatives just as there were big differences

:04:44.:04:47.

between the Liberal Democrats and the Labour Party. I believe we're

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the only party that can marry that commitment delivering a strong

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economy, which Labour can't do, and that commitment to delivering a

:04:56.:04:58.

fairer society, which the Tories can't be trusted to do by

:04:59.:05:02.

themselves. You are going out of your way to pick fights with the

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Tories at the moment. It's a bit like American wrestling. It is all

:05:06.:05:10.

show. Nobody is really getting hurt. I've been compared to many things

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but an American wrestler is a first! I don't see it like that It

:05:14.:05:20.

is right for us as a party to set out what we've achieved and show

:05:21.:05:25.

people that what we promised on 2010 on income tax cuts is what this

:05:26.:05:31.

government is delivering. But nobody seems convinced by these

:05:32.:05:34.

manufactured rows with the Tories. You've just come last in a council

:05:35.:05:39.

by-election with 56 votes. You were even bitten by an Elvis

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impersonator! Yes, that is true -- beaten. I could equally well quote

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council by-elections that we've won recently, beating Conservatives the

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Labour Party and UKIP. Our record on that is pretty good. You can always

:06:01.:06:03.

pick one that shows one or other party in a poor light. Our party is

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having real traction with the electric and the places where we

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have a real chance of winning. If you're not an American wrestler

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maybe you should be an Elvis impersonator! You told your spring

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forum... You don't want to hear me sing! You want to raise the personal

:06:20.:06:25.

allowance to ?12,500 in the next Parliament. Will you refuse to enter

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into Coalition with any party that won't agree to that? What I said

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yesterday is that this will be something which is a very high

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priority for the Liberal Democrats. It's something that we will very

:06:40.:06:43.

much seek to achieve if we are involved... We know that - will it

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be a red line? If you are a number in 2010, on the front page of our

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manifesto, we highlighted four policies... I know all that. Will it

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be a red line? It will be something that is a very high priority for the

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Liberal Democrats to deliver. For the fifth time, will it be a red

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line? It will be, as I said, a very high priority for the Liberal

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Democrats in the next Parliament. That's my language. We did that in

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the next election. The number-1 promise on our manifesto with a

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?10,000 threshold and we've delivered that in this Parliament.

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People can see that when we say something is a top priority, we

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deliver it. Is it your claim... Are you claiming that the Tories would

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not have raised the starting point of income tax if it hadn't been for

:07:36.:07:41.

the Liberal Democrats? If you remember back in the leaders'

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debates in the 2010 election campaign, Nick Clegg was rightly

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championing this idea and David Cameron said it couldn't be

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afforded. Each step of the way in the Coalition negotiations within

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government, we've had to fight for that. The covert overtures have

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other priorities. -- the Conservatives. I don't want to go

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back into history. I'd like to get to the present. Have the

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Conservatives resisted every effort to raise the starting point of

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income tax? As I said, we promised this in 2010, they said it couldn't

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be done. We've made sure it was delivered in the Coalition. Have

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they resisted it? We've argued for big steps along the way and forced

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it on to the agenda. They've wanted to deliver other things are so we've

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had to fight for our priority.. Did the Conservatives resist every

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attempt? It has been resisted, overall the things I'm talking

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about, by Conservatives, because they have wanted to deliver other

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things and, of course, in a Coalition you negotiate. Both

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parties have their priorities. Our priority has been a very consistent

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one. Last year, they were arguing about tax breaks for married

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couples. They were arguing in 2 10 for tax cuts for millionaires. Our

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priority in all these discussions has been a consistent one, which is

:09:13.:09:15.

to say we want cutbacks for working people. -- we want to cut tax for

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working people. That has been delivered by both parties in the

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Coalition government full top So what do you think when the Tories

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take credit for it? I understand why they want to try to do that. Most

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people understand what we have just said. Not if the polls are to be

:09:36.:09:43.

believed... You're under 10%. This is one of the things, when I talk to

:09:44.:09:51.

people, but I find they know that the Lib Dems have delivered in

:09:52.:09:54.

government. People know we promised it in 2010 and we're the ones who

:09:55.:09:58.

forced this idea onto the agenda in our election manifesto. You've said

:09:59.:10:02.

that five times in this interview alone. The reality is, this is now a

:10:03.:10:10.

squabbling, loveless marriage. We're getting bored with all your tests,

:10:11.:10:14.

the voters. Why don't you just divorced? -- all your arguments I

:10:15.:10:22.

don't accept that. On a lot of policy areas, the Coalition

:10:23.:10:24.

government has worked very well together. We're delivering an awful

:10:25.:10:28.

lot of things that matter to this country. Most importantly, the mess

:10:29.:10:32.

that Labour made of the economy we are sorting out. We are getting our

:10:33.:10:36.

finances on the right track, making our economy more competitive,

:10:37.:10:40.

creating jobs up and down this country, supporting businesses to

:10:41.:10:43.

invest in growth. That is what this Coalition was set up to do, what it

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is delivering, and both myself and George Osborne are proud to have

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worked together to deliver that record. Danny Alexander, thanks for

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that. Enjoyed York. Helen, is anybody listening? I do worry that

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another 40 months of this might drive voter apathy up to record

:11:02.:11:05.

levels. There is a simple answer to why they don't divorced - it's the

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agreement that Parliament will last until 2015. MPs are bouncing around

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Westminster with very little to do. They are looking for things to put

:11:16.:11:20.

in the Queen's Speech and we are going to have rocks basically the 40

:11:21.:11:23.

months and very little substantial difference in policies. Do you

:11:24.:11:28.

believe Danny Alexander when he says there would have been no rise in the

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starting rate of income tax if not for the Lib Dems? He's gilding the

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lily. If you look back at papers are written in 2001 suggesting precisely

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this policy, written by a Tory peer, you see there are plenty of Tories

:11:46.:11:50.

which suggest there would have been this kind of move. I can see why

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Danny Alexander needs to do this and they need to show they've achieved

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something in government because they are below 10% in the polls and

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finding it incredibly difficult to get any traction at all. The other

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leg of this Lib Dem repositioning is now to be explicitly the party of

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Europe and to be the vanguard of the fight to be all things pro-Europe.

:12:15.:12:20.

Mr Clegg is going to debate Nigel Farage in the run-up to the European

:12:21.:12:24.

elections. If, despite that, the Lib Dems come last of the major parties,

:12:25.:12:50.

doesn't it show how out of touch different. They are targeting a

:12:51.:12:55.

section of the electorate who are a bit more amenable to their views

:12:56.:12:59.

than the rest. They wouldn't get 20% of the vote. They are targeting that

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one section. They have to do disproportionately well amongst

:13:05.:13:07.

those and it will payoff and they will end up with something like 15%.

:13:08.:13:11.

How many seats will the Lib Dems losing the next election? Ten. 0.

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15. Triangulation! We'll keep that on tape and see what actually

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happens! The Work and Pensions Secretary Iain

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Duncan Smith is a man on a mission. He's undertaken the biggest overhaul

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in our welfare state since it was invented way back in the

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black-and-white days of the late 1940s. A committed Roman Catholic,

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he's said he has a moral vision to reverse the previous welfare system,

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which he believes didn't create enough incentive for people to work.

:13:46.:13:50.

But are his reforms working? Are they fair? As he bitten off more

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than he can chew? In a moment, we'll speak to the man himself but first,

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here's Adam. Hackney in north London and we're on

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the road with the man who might just be the most ambitious welfare

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secretary there's ever been. It s a journey that started in the wind and

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rain on a Glasgow council estate 12 years ago when he was Tory leader.

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He came face-to-face with what it meant to be poor. A selection of

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teddy bears. It's where he discovered his recipe for reform,

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according to one of the advisers who was with him. There are things that

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if you do get a job, keep your family together, stay off drugs and

:14:29.:14:35.

alcohol, make sure you have a proper skill - that's what keeps you of

:14:36.:14:40.

poverty. He, very ambitiously, wants to redefine the nature of what it

:14:41.:14:43.

means to be poor and how you get away from poverty. Back in north

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London, he's come to congratulate the troops on some good news. In

:14:50.:14:53.

this borough, the number of people on job-seeker's allowance has gone

:14:54.:14:57.

down by 29% in the last year, up from around 1700 to around 1200 But

:14:58.:15:04.

the picture in his wider changes to the welfare state is a bit more

:15:05.:15:09.

mixed. A cap on the total amount of benefits a family can get, of

:15:10.:15:14.

?26,000 a year, is hugely popular but there have been howls of protest

:15:15.:15:17.

over cuts to housing benefit, labelled the bedroom tax by some.

:15:18.:15:24.

Protests, too, about assessments for people on disability benefits,

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inherited from the previous government. Iain Duncan Smith has

:15:26.:15:30.

been accused of being heartless and the company doing them, Atos, has

:15:31.:15:35.

pulled out. And then the big one - and universal credit, a plan to roll

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six benefits into one monthly payment, in a way designed to ensure

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that work always pays. Some of the IT has been written off and the

:15:45.:15:48.

timetable seems to be slipping. Outside the bubble of the

:15:49.:15:52.

stage-managed ministerial trip, a local Labour MP reckons he's bitten

:15:53.:15:57.

off more than he can chew. The great desire is to say, " let's have one

:15:58.:16:02.

simple one size fits all approach" . And there isn't one size of person

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or family out there. People need to change and they can challenge on the

:16:07.:16:10.

turn of a penny almost. One minute they are doing the right thing,

:16:11.:16:14.

working hard. Next minute, they need a level of support and if this

:16:15.:16:17.

simple system doesn't deliver that for them, they're in a difficult

:16:18.:16:21.

position. And that's the flying visit to the front line finished. He

:16:22.:16:28.

does not like to hang about and just as well do - his overhaul of the

:16:29.:16:32.

entire benefits system still has quite a long way to go. And Iain

:16:33.:16:41.

Duncan Smith joins me now. Before I come onto the interview on welfare

:16:42.:16:45.

reform, is Danny Alexander right when he claims the Lib Dems had to

:16:46.:16:52.

fight to get the Tories to raise the income tax threshold? That is not my

:16:53.:16:57.

recollection of what happened. These debates took place in the

:16:58.:17:02.

Coalition. The Conservatives are in favour of reducing the overall

:17:03.:17:07.

burden of taxation, so the question was how best do we do it? The

:17:08.:17:12.

conversation took place, they were keen on raising the threshold, there

:17:13.:17:17.

were also other ways of doing it but it is clear from the Conservatives

:17:18.:17:22.

that we always wanted to improve the quality of life of those at the

:17:23.:17:26.

bottom so raising the threshold fit within the overall plan. If it was a

:17:27.:17:32.

row, it was the kind of row you have over a cup of tea round the

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breakfast table. We have got a lot to cover. There are two criticisms

:17:42.:17:48.

mainly of what you are doing - will they work, and will they be fair?

:17:49.:17:54.

Leslie Roberts, one of our viewers, wants to know why so much has

:17:55.:17:59.

already been written off due to failures of the universal credit

:18:00.:18:02.

system even though it has been barely introduced. Relatively it has

:18:03.:18:10.

been a ?2 billion investment project, in the private sector

:18:11.:18:18.

programmes are written off regularly at 30, 40%. The IT is working, we

:18:19.:18:24.

are improving as we go along, the key thing is to keep your eye on the

:18:25.:18:28.

parts that don't work and make sure they don't create a problem for the

:18:29.:18:38.

programme. 140 million has been wasted! The 40 million that was

:18:39.:18:42.

written off was just do with security IT, and I took that

:18:43.:18:47.

decision over a year and a half ago so the programme continued to roll

:18:48.:18:52.

out. Those figures include the standard right down, the aggregation

:18:53.:19:03.

of cost over a period of time. The computers were written down years

:19:04.:19:08.

ago but they continue to work now. Universal credit is rolling out we

:19:09.:19:12.

are doing the Pathfinders and learning a lot but I will not ever

:19:13.:19:16.

do this again like the last government, big band launches, you

:19:17.:19:27.

should do it phrase by phrase. Even your colleague Francis Maude says

:19:28.:19:30.

the implementation of universal credit has been pretty lamentable.

:19:31.:19:36.

He was referring back to the time when I stopped that element of the

:19:37.:19:43.

process and I agreed with that. I intervened to make the changes. The

:19:44.:19:47.

key point is that it is rolling out and I invite anyone to look at where

:19:48.:19:54.

it is being rolled out to. You were predicting that a million people

:19:55.:19:58.

would be an universal credit, this is the new welfare credit which

:19:59.:20:02.

rolls up six existing welfare benefits and you were predicting a

:20:03.:20:08.

million people would be on it by April, well it is March and only

:20:09.:20:19.

3200 are on it. I changed the way we rolled it out and there was a reason

:20:20.:20:23.

for that. Under the advice of someone we brought from outside he

:20:24.:20:29.

said that you are better rolling it out slower and gaining momentum

:20:30.:20:33.

later on. On the timetables for rolling out we are pretty clear that

:20:34.:20:37.

it will roll out within the timescale is originally set. We will

:20:38.:20:41.

roll it out into the Northwest so that we replicate the north and the

:20:42.:20:47.

Northwest, recognise how it works properly. You will not hit 1 million

:20:48.:20:55.

by April. I have no intention of claiming that, and it is quite

:20:56.:20:58.

deliberate because that is the wrong thing to do. We want to roll it out

:20:59.:21:04.

carefully so we make sure everything about it works. There are lots of

:21:05.:21:08.

variables in this process but if you do it that way, you will not end up

:21:09.:21:13.

with the kind of debacle where in the past something like ?28 billion

:21:14.:21:18.

worth of IT programmes were written off. ?38 billion of net benefits,

:21:19.:21:27.

which is exactly what the N a O Z, so it is worth getting it right

:21:28.:21:33.

William Grant wants to know, when will the universal credit cover the

:21:34.:21:39.

whole country? By 2016, everybody who is claiming one of those six

:21:40.:21:43.

benefits will be claiming universal credit. Some and sickness benefits

:21:44.:21:52.

will take longer to come on because it is more difficult. Many of them

:21:53.:21:57.

have no work expectations on them, but for those on working tax

:21:58.:22:01.

credits, on things like job-seeker's allowance, they will be making

:22:02.:22:07.

claims on universal credit. Many of them are already doing that now

:22:08.:22:12.

there are 200,000 people around the country already on universal credit.

:22:13.:22:19.

You cannot give me a date as to when everybody will be on it? 2016 is

:22:20.:22:28.

when everybody claiming this benefit will be on, then you have to bring

:22:29.:22:34.

others and take them slower. Universal credit is a big and

:22:35.:22:39.

important reform, not an IT reform. The important point is that it will

:22:40.:22:44.

be a massive cultural reform. Right now somebody has to go to work and

:22:45.:22:50.

there is a small job out there. They won't take that because the way

:22:51.:22:53.

their benefits are withdrawn, it will mean it is not worth doing it.

:22:54.:22:58.

Under the way we have got it in the Pathfinders, the change is

:22:59.:23:02.

dramatic. A job-seeker can take a small part time job while they are

:23:03.:23:06.

looking for work and it means flexibility for business so it is a

:23:07.:23:12.

big change. Lets see if that is true because universal credit is meant to

:23:13.:23:17.

make work pay, that is your mantra. Let me show you a quote Minister in

:23:18.:23:24.

the last -- in the last Tory conference. It

:23:25.:23:47.

has only come down to 76%. Actually form own parents, before they get to

:23:48.:23:53.

the tax bracket it is well below that. That is a decision the

:23:54.:23:58.

Government takes about the withdrawal rate so you can lower

:23:59.:24:04.

that rate or raise it. And do your reforms, some of the poorest

:24:05.:24:08.

people, if they burn an extra pound, will pay a marginal rate of

:24:09.:24:20.

76%. -- if they earn an extra pound. The 98% he is talking about is a

:24:21.:24:25.

specific area to do with lone parents but there are specific

:24:26.:24:32.

compound areas in the process that mean people are better off staying

:24:33.:24:37.

at home then going to work. They will be able to identify how much

:24:38.:24:41.

they are better off without needing to have a maths degree to figure it

:24:42.:24:46.

out. They are all taken away at different rates at the moment, it is

:24:47.:24:52.

complex and chaotic. Under universal credit that won't happen, and they

:24:53.:24:57.

will always be better off than they are now. Would you work that bit

:24:58.:25:03.

harder if the Government was going to take away that portion of what

:25:04.:25:12.

you learned? At the moment you are going to tax poor people at the same

:25:13.:25:18.

rate the French government taxes billionaires. Millions will be

:25:19.:25:23.

better off under this system of universal credit, I promise you and

:25:24.:25:27.

that level of withdrawal then becomes something governments have

:25:28.:25:33.

to publicly discussed as to whether they lower or raise it. But George

:25:34.:25:39.

Osborne wouldn't give you the extra money to allow for the taper, is

:25:40.:25:45.

that right? The moment somebody crosses into work under the present

:25:46.:25:50.

system, there are huge cliff edges, in other words the immediate

:25:51.:25:53.

withdrawal makes it worse for them to go into work than otherwise. If

:25:54.:25:59.

he had given you more money, you could have tapered it more gently?

:26:00.:26:09.

Of course, but the Chancellor can always ultimately make that

:26:10.:26:12.

decision. These decisions are made by chancellors like tax rates, but

:26:13.:26:19.

it would be much easier under this system for the public to see what

:26:20.:26:24.

the Government chooses as its priorities. At the moment nobody has

:26:25.:26:29.

any idea but in the future it will be. Under the Pathfinders, we are

:26:30.:26:35.

finding people are going to work faster, doing more job searches and

:26:36.:26:40.

more likely to take work under universal credit. Public Accounts

:26:41.:26:47.

Committee said this programme has been worse than doing nothing, for

:26:48.:26:55.

the long-term credit. It has not been a glorious success, has it

:26:56.:27:03.

That is wrong. Right now the work programme is succeeding, more people

:27:04.:27:08.

are going to work, somewhere in the order of 500,000 people have gone

:27:09.:27:12.

back into work as a result of the programme. Around 280,000 people are

:27:13.:27:18.

in a sustained work over six months. Many companies are well

:27:19.:27:22.

above it, and the whole point about the work programme is that it is

:27:23.:27:27.

setup so that we make the private sector, two things that are

:27:28.:27:30.

important, there is competition in every area so that people can be

:27:31.:27:36.

sucked out of the programme and others can move in. The important

:27:37.:27:42.

point here as well is this, that actually they don't get paid unless

:27:43.:27:46.

they sustain somebody for six months of employment. Under previous

:27:47.:27:51.

programmes under the last government, they wasted millions

:27:52.:27:55.

paying companies who took the money and didn't do enough to get people

:27:56.:28:00.

into work. The best performing provider only moved 5% of people off

:28:01.:28:06.

benefit into work, the worst managed only 2%. It is young people. That

:28:07.:28:15.

report was on the early first months of the work programme, it is a

:28:16.:28:20.

two-year point we are now and I can give you the figures for this. They

:28:21.:28:25.

are above the line, the improvement has been dramatic and the work

:28:26.:28:29.

programme is better than any other back to work programme under the

:28:30.:28:38.

last government. So why is long term unemployment rising? It is falling.

:28:39.:28:44.

We have the largest number of people back in work, there is more women in

:28:45.:28:49.

work than ever before, more jobs being created, 1.6 million new jobs

:28:50.:28:54.

being created. The work programme is working, our back to work programmes

:28:55.:29:01.

are incredibly successful at below cost so we are doing better than the

:29:02.:29:05.

last government ever did, and it will continue to improve because

:29:06.:29:10.

this process is very important. The competition is what drives up

:29:11.:29:15.

performance. We want the best performers to take the biggest

:29:16.:29:19.

numbers of people. You are practising Catholic, Archbishop

:29:20.:29:26.

Vincent Nichols has attached your reforms -- attack to your reforms,

:29:27.:29:30.

saying they are becoming more punitive to the most vulnerable in

:29:31.:29:35.

the land. What do you say? I don't agree. It would have been good if

:29:36.:29:40.

you called me before making these attacks because most are not

:29:41.:29:50.

correct. For the poorest temper sent in their

:29:51.:29:55.

society, they are now spending, as a percentage of their income, less

:29:56.:29:59.

than they did before. I'm not quite sure what he thinks welfare is

:30:00.:30:04.

about. Welfare is about stabilising people but most of all making sure

:30:05.:30:08.

that households can achieve what they need through work. The number

:30:09.:30:13.

of workless households under previous governments arose

:30:14.:30:17.

consistently. It has fallen for the first time in 30 years by nearly

:30:18.:30:23.

18%. Something like a quarter of a million children were growing up in

:30:24.:30:26.

workless households and are now in households with work and they are

:30:27.:30:30.

three times more likely to grow up with work than they would have been

:30:31.:30:34.

in workless households. Let me come into something that he may have had

:30:35.:30:39.

in mind as being punitive - some other housing benefit changes. A

:30:40.:30:42.

year ago, the Prime Minister announced that people with severely

:30:43.:30:46.

disabled children would be exempt from the changes but that was only

:30:47.:30:51.

after your department fought a High Court battle over children who

:30:52.:30:56.

couldn't share a bedroom because of severe disabilities. Isn't that what

:30:57.:31:01.

the Archbishop means by punitive or, some may describe it, heartless We

:31:02.:31:05.

were originally going to appeal that and I said no. You put it up for an

:31:06.:31:11.

appeal and I said no. We're talking about families with disabled

:31:12.:31:17.

children. There are good reasons for this. Children with conditions like

:31:18.:31:20.

that don't make decisions about their household - their parents do -

:31:21.:31:25.

so I said we would exempt them. But for adults with disabilities the

:31:26.:31:29.

courts have upheld all of our decisions against complaints. But

:31:30.:31:33.

you did appeal it. It's just that, having lost in the appeal court, you

:31:34.:31:37.

didn't then go to the Supreme Court. You make decisions about this. My

:31:38.:31:41.

view was that it was right to exempt them at that time. I made that

:31:42.:31:47.

decision, not the Prime Minister. Let's get this right - the context

:31:48.:31:51.

of this is quite important. Housing benefit under the last government

:31:52.:31:55.

doubled under the last ten years to ?20 billion. It was set to rise to

:31:56.:32:01.

another 25 billion, the fastest rising of the benefits, it was out

:32:02.:32:05.

of control. We had to get it into control. It wasn't easy but we

:32:06.:32:08.

haven't cut the overall rise in housing. We've lowered it but we

:32:09.:32:13.

haven't cut housing benefit and we've tried to do it carefully so

:32:14.:32:17.

that people get a fair crack. On the spare room subsidy, which is what

:32:18.:32:20.

this complaint was about, the reality is that there are a quarter

:32:21.:32:24.

of a million people living in overcrowded accommodation. The last

:32:25.:32:27.

government left us with 1 million people on a waiting list for housing

:32:28.:32:30.

and there were half a million people sitting in houses with spare

:32:31.:32:34.

bedrooms they weren't using. As we build more houses, yes we need more,

:32:35.:32:38.

but the reality is that councils and others have to use their

:32:39.:32:41.

accommodation carefully so that they actually improve the lot of those

:32:42.:32:44.

living in desperate situations in overcrowded accommodation, and

:32:45.:32:48.

taxpayers are paying a lot of money. This will help people get

:32:49.:32:52.

back to work. They're more likely to go to work and more likely,

:32:53.:32:56.

therefore, to end up in the right sort of housing. We've not got much

:32:57.:33:02.

time left. A centre-right think tank that you've been associated with, on

:33:03.:33:07.

job-seeker's allowance, says 70 000 job-seekers' benefits were withdrawn

:33:08.:33:14.

unfairly. A viewer wants to know, are these reforms too harsh and

:33:15.:33:19.

punitive? Those figures are not correct. The Policy Exchange is

:33:20.:33:23.

wrong? Those figures are not correct and we will be publishing corrected

:33:24.:33:30.

figures. The reality is... Some people have lost their job-seeker

:33:31.:33:33.

benefits and been forced to go to food backs and they shouldn't have.

:33:34.:33:38.

No, they're not. What he is referring to is that we allowed an

:33:39.:33:43.

adviser to make a decision if some but it is not cooperating. We now

:33:44.:33:47.

make people sign a contract, where they agree these things. These are

:33:48.:33:51.

things we do for you and if you don't do these things, you are

:33:52.:33:55.

likely to have your benefit withdrawn on job-seeker's allowance.

:33:56.:33:57.

Some of this was an fairly withdrawn. There are millions of

:33:58.:34:02.

these things that go through. This is a very small subset. But if you

:34:03.:34:07.

lose your job-seeker benefit unfairly, you have no cash flow.

:34:08.:34:11.

There is an immediate review within seven days of that decision. Within

:34:12.:34:17.

seven days, that decision is reviewed. They are able to get a

:34:18.:34:20.

hardship fund straightaway if there is a problem. We have nearly ?1

:34:21.:34:25.

billion setup to help people, through crisis, hardship funds and

:34:26.:34:33.

in many other ways. We've given more than ?200 million to authorities to

:34:34.:34:37.

do face-to-face checks. This is not a nasty, vicious system but a system

:34:38.:34:43.

that says, "look, we ask you to do certain things. Taxpayers pay this

:34:44.:34:46.

money. You are out of work but you have obligations to seek work. We

:34:47.:34:50.

simply ask that you stick to doing those. Those sanctions are therefore

:34:51.:34:54.

be but he will not cooperate" . I think it is only fair to say to

:34:55.:34:58.

those people that they make choices throughout their life and if they

:34:59.:35:00.

choose not to cooperate, this is what happens. Is child poverty

:35:01.:35:06.

rising? No, it is actually falling in the last figures. 300,000 it fell

:35:07.:35:13.

in the last... Let me show you these figures. That is a projection by the

:35:14.:35:19.

Institute of fiscal studies. It also shows that it has gone up every year

:35:20.:35:25.

and will rise by 400,000 in this Parliament, and your government, and

:35:26.:35:28.

will continue to rise. But never mind the projection. It may be

:35:29.:35:32.

right, may be wrong. It would be 400,000 up compared to when -- what

:35:33.:35:39.

you inherited when this Parliament ends. That isn't a projection but

:35:40.:35:44.

the actual figures. But the last figures show that child poverty has

:35:45.:35:49.

fallen by some 300,000. The important point is... Can I just

:35:50.:35:54.

finished this point of? Child poverty is measured against 60% of

:35:55.:35:57.

median income so this is an issue about how we measure child poverty.

:35:58.:36:03.

You want to change the measure. I made the decision not to publish our

:36:04.:36:07.

change figures at this point because we've still got a bit more work to

:36:08.:36:10.

do on them but there is a big consensus that the way we measure

:36:11.:36:14.

child poverty right now does not measure exactly what requires to be

:36:15.:36:19.

done. For example, a family with an individual parent who may be drug

:36:20.:36:22.

addicted and gets what we think is enough money to be just over the

:36:23.:36:25.

line, their children may be living in poverty but they won't be

:36:26.:36:29.

measured so we need to get a measurement that looks at poverty in

:36:30.:36:32.

terms of how people live, not just in terms of the income levels they

:36:33.:36:38.

have. You can see on that chart - 400,000 rising by the end of this

:36:39.:36:42.

Parliament - you are deciding over an increase. Speedier I want to

:36:43.:36:47.

change it because under the last government child poverty rose

:36:48.:36:50.

consistently from 2004 and they ended up chucking huge sums of money

:36:51.:36:56.

into things like tax credits. In tax credits, in six years before the

:36:57.:37:03.

last election, the last government spent ?175 billion chasing a poverty

:37:04.:37:05.

target and they didn't achieve what they set out to achieve. We don't

:37:06.:37:10.

want to continue down that line where you simply put money into a

:37:11.:37:14.

welfare system to alter a marginal income line. It doesn't make any

:37:15.:37:18.

sense. That's why we want to change it, not because some projection says

:37:19.:37:23.

it might be going up. I will point out again it isn't a projection up

:37:24.:37:36.

to 2013-14. You want it to make work pay but more people in poverty are

:37:37.:37:39.

now in working families than in workless families. For them, workers

:37:40.:37:46.

not paying. Those figures referred to the last government's time in

:37:47.:37:51.

government. What is interesting about it is that until 2010, under

:37:52.:37:57.

the last government, those in working families - poverty in

:37:58.:38:00.

working families rose by half a million. For the two years up to the

:38:01.:38:04.

end of those figures, it has been flat, under this government. These

:38:05.:38:08.

are figures at the last government... You inherited and it

:38:09.:38:14.

hasn't changed. The truth is, even if you are in poverty in a working

:38:15.:38:19.

family, your children, if they are in workless families, are three

:38:20.:38:22.

times more likely to be out of work and to suffer real hardship. So, in

:38:23.:38:28.

other words, moving people up the scale, into work and then on is

:38:29.:38:34.

important. The problem with the last government system with working tax

:38:35.:38:37.

credit is it locks them into certain hours and they didn't progress.

:38:38.:38:41.

We're changing that so that you progress on up and go out of poverty

:38:42.:38:45.

through work and beyond it. But those figures you're referring to

:38:46.:38:49.

refer to the last government's tenure and they spent ?175 billion

:38:50.:38:54.

on a tax credit which still left people in work in poverty. Even 20

:38:55.:38:59.

minutes isn't enough to go through all this. A lot more I'd like to

:39:00.:39:03.

talk about. I hope you will come back. I will definitely come back.

:39:04.:39:08.

Thank you for joining us. You're watching the Sunday

:39:09.:39:11.

Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now for

:39:12.:39:13.

Sunday Politics Scotland. Hello once again from the Mhdlands,

:39:14.:39:29.

I'm Patrick Burns. And we h`ve a very select gathering here today.

:39:30.:39:32.

Two MPs representing no fewdr than five Commons select committdes

:39:33.:39:35.

between them. Adrian Bailey, Labour MP for West Bromwich West, chairs

:39:36.:39:38.

the Business Innovation and Skills Select Committee. Karen Lumley,

:39:39.:39:44.

Conservative MP for Redditch, is on both the Transport and Welsh Affairs

:39:45.:39:52.

Select Committees. But we'll not be setting foot beyond Offa's Dyke I

:39:53.:39:58.

can assure you. Because it's Adrian's committee

:39:59.:40:02.

who're breaking new ground. The Business Select Committee are coming

:40:03.:40:06.

to the aid of our embattled high streets, calling for business rates

:40:07.:40:08.

to be "fundamentally reformdd" or even scrapped altogether. On top of

:40:09.:40:14.

the economic downturn and online competition, these rates ard being

:40:15.:40:16.

blamed for those increasingly desolate areas of our towns and

:40:17.:40:19.

cities, with one shop after another closing down for good. Adri`n Bailey

:40:20.:40:25.

says business rates pose, "The single biggest threat to thd

:40:26.:40:29.

survival of retail businessds on the High Street".

:40:30.:40:40.

It sounds apocalyptic. Are xou going to scrap it altogether? It has to be

:40:41.:40:47.

fundamental reform. Currently revaluation was done in 2008. The

:40:48.:40:53.

level of rates been increasdd every year since then. 2008 was at the

:40:54.:40:59.

peak of the property prices before the recession. Bricks and mortar

:41:00.:41:06.

retailers that populate our High Street have been caught in dver

:41:07.:41:11.

escalating costs whilst dem`nd has been at best flat and often

:41:12.:41:16.

diminished. The BBC has been talking to a leading surveyor and hd says

:41:17.:41:20.

that this system is based on property rather than sales for a

:41:21.:41:26.

reason. It works. The Government, if it does not levy the money hn this

:41:27.:41:31.

way, it will do it in anothdr way, so it may as well be property. The

:41:32.:41:35.

Government has to handle thd issue very carefully. If you led to a

:41:36.:41:48.

system that had reduced revdnue The system is currently very we`k. There

:41:49.:41:51.

should be a root and branch assessment done of where thd burden

:41:52.:41:59.

is falling and if it can be spread more equitably, see between the

:42:00.:42:02.

multiple retailer and the bricks and mortar retailer.

:42:03.:42:10.

How are the major retailers getting on? They are doing very well. But

:42:11.:42:23.

there are people who are very worried about this. We have got to

:42:24.:42:27.

do something. They are going to go out of business. What happens to the

:42:28.:42:52.

revival of the High Street? We had some money can to Redditch. We had a

:42:53.:43:04.

Dragon 's Den type setup to bring the new businesses into Redditch.

:43:05.:43:14.

Still to come: Is Number Ten Downing Street being passed around like a

:43:15.:43:19.

plaything for Old Etonians? Sounds like the latest salvo in thd class

:43:20.:43:24.

war. Except the person tweeting it is a Conservative MP, who rdckons

:43:25.:43:27.

the top job is being treated like a baton in a relay race. That's

:43:28.:43:34.

another of our talking points, a little later on.

:43:35.:43:39.

We've seen the marches, the protest meetings and the midnight vhgils.

:43:40.:43:43.

Now the fight for local hospital services is becoming even more

:43:44.:43:49.

political. When the National Health Action Party unveil their c`ndidates

:43:50.:43:53.

for the next election, we c`n expect Stafford to feature high on their

:43:54.:43:58.

target list. Redditch too pdrhaps. Ben Godfrey has seen the battle

:43:59.:44:03.

lines being drawn. It's survived countless scares ` but

:44:04.:44:05.

your friendly`neighbourhood hospital brimming with acute services ` is

:44:06.:44:15.

reaching the end of its lifd. Its role will change. It will bd legally

:44:16.:44:25.

dead. `` regraded. The Stafford Hospital crisis could

:44:26.:44:28.

be the turning point for re`structuring NHS hospitals. The

:44:29.:44:31.

Trust which runs it will be dissolved. Some of its spechalist

:44:32.:44:34.

services shipped out to othdr hospitals ` with a focus on

:44:35.:44:39.

so`called centres of excelldnce We have become more technical `nd more

:44:40.:44:45.

specialised. You cannot havd a brain surgeon in every hospital.

:44:46.:44:50.

We've been here before. In 0998 ten thousand people joined rallhes to

:44:51.:44:52.

protect services at Kiddermhnster Hospital. And voters pushed a local

:44:53.:44:56.

Dr into the House of Commons. Dr Richard Taylor ousted a

:44:57.:44:59.

Government minister in 2001 but lost his seat to the Conservativds in

:45:00.:45:04.

Wyre Forest four years ago. Today, with new battles for hospital

:45:05.:45:07.

services someone has called for a Dr again ` or should that be white van

:45:08.:45:13.

man? The 79`year`old will stand `t next

:45:14.:45:16.

year's General Election for the National Health Action Partx and is

:45:17.:45:19.

already on the campaign trahl with local election candidates.

:45:20.:45:30.

Kidderminster is the only profitable hospital in the entire county. It

:45:31.:45:34.

will be sold off to private enterprise if we do not watch it.

:45:35.:45:38.

The Governmment argues major reforms are needed to the NHS to find ? 0

:45:39.:45:42.

billion of savings. And the pressure's building. Of the 147 NHS

:45:43.:45:45.

Foundation Trusts in England, 3 are in financial trouble. At Mid Staffs

:45:46.:45:50.

they racked up a debt last xear of almost ?15 million.

:45:51.:45:55.

We've learned that members of Support Stafford Hospital c`mpaign

:45:56.:45:58.

group, who led 50,000 peopld on a protest march, are joining the

:45:59.:46:01.

National Health Action Partx ahead of the General Election and are

:46:02.:46:12.

considering fielding candid`tes The entire situation, and the process we

:46:13.:46:19.

have been put through, once the community realises that this year,

:46:20.:46:26.

they will have a lot of intdrest. How realistic is it that thhs party

:46:27.:46:35.

can have success at the ballot box? It could have success. But once you

:46:36.:46:38.

get into office you have to deliver and voters get dissatisfied.

:46:39.:46:42.

Hospitals are fighting to strvive so more merged services are likely but

:46:43.:46:46.

when it comes to improving patient care does Dr really does know best?

:46:47.:46:51.

Does the politician know best for that matter?

:46:52.:46:55.

Ben Godfrey reporting. Let's talk to that Dr turned politician, who

:46:56.:46:57.

triggered a political landslide in Kidderminster, twice. Richard

:46:58.:47:03.

Taylor, former Independent LP for Wyre Forest, now planning a

:47:04.:47:05.

Parliamentary comeback therd, for the National Health Action Party.

:47:06.:47:17.

We know you are standing in wire forest. `` Wyre Forest. What about

:47:18.:47:28.

other candidates in other areas We are only at this stage of dhscussing

:47:29.:47:34.

things at the moment. What `re your targets? The only one we ard talking

:47:35.:47:38.

about at the moment as Stafford The point has been made that we are

:47:39.:47:45.

going to split the vote. We are going to be terribly careful where

:47:46.:47:52.

we stand. That will be subjdct to a lot of discussion. Are you fighting

:47:53.:48:02.

to win or justice but the vote? When I look back and think of me as the

:48:03.:48:09.

only independent MP on the House of Commons I know I made a difference.

:48:10.:48:18.

If we could get two or thred, ten, 15. Doctors training is ide`l for

:48:19.:48:42.

politics. The vision of the national health service, which your party

:48:43.:48:47.

wants to wind the clock back to our universal service with a set of

:48:48.:48:51.

acute services in local district hospitals, given that peopld are

:48:52.:48:57.

living and working longer, ht is not affordable even with ring fdnced

:48:58.:49:00.

budgets. You have to go for centres of excellence is. Things have

:49:01.:49:09.

changed tremendously since the Kidderminster Hospital camp`ign At

:49:10.:49:11.

that time heart attacks and strokes were treated in district general

:49:12.:49:23.

hospitals. But now it is trdated in a centre of excellence. You accept

:49:24.:49:28.

that. Heart attacks and strokes have to go to major centres. One accepts

:49:29.:49:35.

that. That is not the view on the ground in Stafford. People `re

:49:36.:49:38.

campaigning to retain distrhct hospitals. I do not know thd details

:49:39.:49:46.

of what they are planning to keep. But you have to have the facilities

:49:47.:49:56.

to treat enough people for vascular surgery. There is a question over

:49:57.:50:02.

whether Redditch can keep that going. There are certain spdcialties

:50:03.:50:07.

that have to move. You want to drive Labour to the left. Can you spell

:50:08.:50:14.

out what you mean by that? H can spell it out exactly. The L`bour

:50:15.:50:19.

Party have said very definitely that they are thinking of revershng the

:50:20.:50:23.

health act. We would like to see that reversed. We would likd the NHS

:50:24.:50:32.

to be the preferred provider of health services. We are not against

:50:33.:50:38.

privatisation completely, bdcause there are so many bits of the

:50:39.:50:42.

national health service that are already privatised. Are you going to

:50:43.:50:47.

be moved to the left by this campaign? The success that he has

:50:48.:50:52.

had in the past is an indic`tion of the huge regard that the public has

:50:53.:50:59.

for the National Health Service As the Labour Party introduced the

:51:00.:51:01.

National Health Service we `re hugely committed to it. It hs one of

:51:02.:51:09.

our priorities. It has to change. Clinical priorities and clinical

:51:10.:51:13.

practices have changed. But what we are seeing is that health and social

:51:14.:51:18.

care action can be repealed so that doctors can concentrate on

:51:19.:51:23.

delivering services to the public, not administering them. In Redditch

:51:24.:51:33.

you have a campaign. They w`nt you to vote against this Bill that has

:51:34.:51:37.

this Clause 119 which could accelerate closure plans. They want

:51:38.:51:46.

you to vote against that. I met people from that campaign. H only

:51:47.:51:50.

meeting their minister to share their concerns. Will you vote

:51:51.:52:00.

against? If a hospital is f`iling either clinically or financhally,

:52:01.:52:03.

something has got to happen to that hospital. You cannot just do

:52:04.:52:11.

nothing. Is it failing becatse of the success of a campaign in

:52:12.:52:16.

Kidderminster? We have had ` cross`party campaign in Redditch. We

:52:17.:52:23.

have got a better deal than was proposed two years ago. That shows

:52:24.:52:28.

that parties working togethdr can unite and succeed. I look forward to

:52:29.:52:33.

that hospital having a fant`stic future. Do you think you can work

:52:34.:52:39.

together? If the parties had worked together at the time of

:52:40.:52:43.

Kidderminster we would not have lost the hospital there. We would not

:52:44.:52:45.

have lost the amount of services that we don't. You talk abott having

:52:46.:52:52.

affiliate organisations that campaign. In Kidderminster hn 2 01

:52:53.:52:59.

you had this very intense locally focused campaign. You have lost that

:53:00.:53:06.

energy. The local focus has maybe gone down a little bit, but the

:53:07.:53:10.

national focus, and the intdrest in the NHS is still top. We have

:53:11.:53:17.

recently had a work experience person for a week. I asked him how

:53:18.:53:24.

important was NHS to 17`year`olds and he said it was top.

:53:25.:53:29.

We've seen how our local businesses are driving the recovery.

:53:30.:53:32.

Unemployment falling faster here than anywhere else outside the

:53:33.:53:34.

Southeast. Economic growth forecast to be twice the UK average. Exports

:53:35.:53:37.

growing faster here than anxwhere else in the UK. The public finances

:53:38.:53:44.

are still a mess though. Birmingham City Council are selling`off the

:53:45.:53:50.

National Exhibition Centre Group. They say this has nothing whatsoever

:53:51.:53:53.

to do with the authority's unprecedented financial "bl`ck

:53:54.:53:57.

hole". And in Wolverhampton, the council are losing a third of their

:53:58.:54:00.

entire workforce. Here's Giles Latcham.

:54:01.:54:04.

For sale ` the NEC, ICC, NI@ and LG Arena. An alphabet soup of world

:54:05.:54:08.

renowned concert and exhibition venues. A collective price tag of

:54:09.:54:15.

around ?300 million. A case of Birmingham selling its crown jewels

:54:16.:54:24.

perhaps? In some peoples eyds it may be the sale of the crown jewels We

:54:25.:54:30.

want to ensure that the safdty of the city is maintained.

:54:31.:54:34.

The council's finances are drenched in red ink. They need to make

:54:35.:54:37.

savings of ?822 million over the next four years and settle `n equal

:54:38.:54:52.

pay Bill of ?1 billion. Over in Wolverhampton protesters

:54:53.:54:54.

gathered to make their point as councillors approved drastic cuts.

:54:55.:54:58.

2,000 jobs will go ` a third of the workforce ` to help save ?123

:54:59.:55:01.

million. Council tax will go up The only option ` putting on a brave

:55:02.:55:06.

face. We will manage this. We will get through this. We will still have

:55:07.:55:12.

council services in 2018. I hope that afterwards we will start to

:55:13.:55:17.

rebuild public services. Thhs city deserves better than we're getting

:55:18.:55:19.

from this Government. Birmingham's leader describdd the

:55:20.:55:22.

cuts as the jaws of doom. Wolverhampton's motto? Out of

:55:23.:55:24.

darkness cometh light. They'll be hoping it's not just a hollow

:55:25.:55:30.

slogan. Sir Albert Bore also says it's, "The

:55:31.:55:33.

end of local Government as we know it".

:55:34.:55:40.

Giles Latcham reporting. Are we really to take at face value

:55:41.:55:44.

this idea that the sell`off of the NEC has nothing to do with the

:55:45.:55:47.

general finances of the citx council? If you look at the overall

:55:48.:55:52.

finances and the cats they have made in the past and I going to have to

:55:53.:55:56.

make in the future, this particular issue would have arisen irrdspective

:55:57.:56:01.

of the equal pay legislation. It shows how far Labour have come. They

:56:02.:56:08.

are extolling the virtues of selling off into the private sector

:56:09.:56:10.

something that had been seen as a crown jewel. The reverse side is

:56:11.:56:15.

that this is the city of Joseph Chamberlain, the liberal pioneer of

:56:16.:56:25.

municipal enterprise in this area. It is ironic that as a result of

:56:26.:56:28.

liberal Conservative cats this council has had to reverse that

:56:29.:56:33.

process. Meanwhile, your party is getting the blame for what he says

:56:34.:56:37.

is the damage to important services. He wants to rebuild in

:56:38.:56:45.

2017. By implication he thinks there will be a Labour Government. We

:56:46.:56:51.

inherited a terrible mess. Dverybody had to pay the price for th`t. That

:56:52.:56:57.

includes local councils. Sole councils are doing innovative

:56:58.:56:59.

things. My council has joindd with Bromsgrove council. But it hs not

:57:00.:57:10.

enough. It is priorities. That is where you spend your money. You are

:57:11.:57:13.

given a grant and you choosd where to spend it. But this choicd is that

:57:14.:57:18.

locally elected councillors are elected to make. They are elected to

:57:19.:57:21.

make. The active given that Grant and they had to do that. Th`t right

:57:22.:57:24.

thing. I was a local councillor myself. We had to make decisions

:57:25.:57:30.

very often. It is what you `re elected to do. Speaking of those

:57:31.:57:33.

tough choices, we have seen persistent reports from

:57:34.:57:37.

Wolverhampton but the authority has been extravagant. Should thdy not go

:57:38.:57:48.

down the road of merging, working smarter? They would say that. My

:57:49.:57:57.

local council has been planning to work with other local authorities

:57:58.:58:04.

and reduce administrative costs But the scale of the cuts as such it is

:58:05.:58:08.

almost impossible to squeezd any more money out without seriously

:58:09.:58:16.

looking at the level of services. This is dangerous. Are you saying

:58:17.:58:20.

that public authorities are paladins of business efficiency? I al sure

:58:21.:58:23.

there are improvements that can be made elsewhere. `` paragons.

:58:24.:58:32.

Co`operative working can salvage the services. The Government will have

:58:33.:58:37.

to come to a decision. Therd are range of public services th`t are

:58:38.:58:41.

better delivered locally. Are they going to be funded or not? @t the

:58:42.:58:47.

moment it looks as if they `re not. Now for our regular update on the

:58:48.:58:50.

other main political developments here over the past seven daxs. The

:58:51.:58:54.

Week in 60 Seconds is brought to us today by our BBC Shropshire

:58:55.:58:56.

Political Reporter, Joanne Gallacher.

:58:57.:58:59.

Shropshire car parts maker Stadco is creating 200 more jobs after winning

:59:00.:59:02.

a new ?15 million contract with Jaguar Land Rover.

:59:03.:59:07.

The Green Party will hold its annual conference in Birmingham in

:59:08.:59:13.

September at Aston University. They are returning to the city for the

:59:14.:59:17.

first time since 2010. The best of manufacturing in

:59:18.:59:20.

Birmingham and the Black Cotntry was on display at an event for LPs at

:59:21.:59:23.

Westminster. The message lotd and clear ` we still make things here!

:59:24.:59:33.

This is a region that understands the need for cooperation. Wd still

:59:34.:59:38.

manufacture things. Details of Birmingham City Council's

:59:39.:59:41.

IT contract with Capita havd been published. It's costing council tax

:59:42.:59:44.

payers ?345,000 a day. And to Twitter where Wrekin MP Mark

:59:45.:59:47.

Pritchard says, "Inside and outside Parliament people are fed up of Old

:59:48.:59:50.

Etonians thinking they can pass on Number ten like some sort of play

:59:51.:59:56.

thing or baton." Who could he possibly be talking about?

:59:57.:00:10.

David Cameron, Boris Johnson. I could go on and on. It plays into

:00:11.:00:15.

the hands of UKIP for example who say that they did Cameron strrounds

:00:16.:00:20.

himself with posh boys in Government. It does not matter where

:00:21.:00:24.

you go to school. It matters what you do to the high school. H went to

:00:25.:00:29.

Rugby high school. Both of ly children were educated in the state

:00:30.:00:34.

system. It is important that we get to real politics. We are trxing to

:00:35.:00:41.

make people 's lives better. You cannot be too complacent. Tristram

:00:42.:00:48.

Hunt. Ed Miliband. Some serhously posh chaps in your party. Ed

:00:49.:00:56.

Miliband lead to a state school There are ten Conservative linisters

:00:57.:01:01.

who went to Eton. That is an incredible proportion. This is

:01:02.:01:09.

reflected by comments made by Nadine Doris. There is a feeling in the

:01:10.:01:13.

Conservative Party that thex are being taken over by this ond group.

:01:14.:01:18.

Mark Pritchard is saying thdre is invitation within the parli`mentary

:01:19.:01:22.

party at this influence. I have not seen that. It is important that we

:01:23.:01:28.

have a group of people in the Cabinet who can do the best for the

:01:29.:01:32.

British people. I believe wd have got that. I do not care where they

:01:33.:01:36.

went to school as long as they can do the job and deliver for the

:01:37.:01:39.

British people. That is what they are doing.

:01:40.:01:43.

My thanks to Karen Lumley and Adrian Bailey. Coming up this week, your

:01:44.:01:48.

chance to put questions dirdct to a senior executive of one of the Big

:01:49.:01:52.

Six" energy companies. BBC WM's "hotseat" should certainly live`up

:01:53.:01:55.

to the advance billing when nPower Director Guy Esnouf will be Adrian

:01:56.:02:02.

Goldberg's guest. That's thhs coming Friday morning between 11.14 and

:02:03.:02:14.

11.45 on BBC WM 95.6. This though is where we rejoin Andrew Neil.

:02:15.:02:17.

Gove is right to focus. We've run out of time. Thanks for being here.

:02:18.:02:19.

Andrew, back to you. Now, without further ado, more from

:02:20.:02:37.

our political panel. Iain Martin, what did you make of Iain Duncan

:02:38.:02:40.

Smith's response to the Danny Alexander point I'd put to him? I

:02:41.:02:46.

thought it was a cheekily put response but actually, on Twitter,

:02:47.:02:49.

people have been tweeting while on air that there are lots of examples

:02:50.:02:52.

where the Tories have demanded the raising of the threshold. The 2 06

:02:53.:02:58.

Forsyth tax omission is another example. Helen, on the bigger issue

:02:59.:03:05.

of welfare reforms, is welfare reform, as we head into the

:03:06.:03:11.

election, despite all the criticisms, still a plus for the

:03:12.:03:15.

government? I don't think so. Whatever the opposite of a Midas

:03:16.:03:18.

touch is, Iain Duncan Smith has got it. David Cameron never talks about

:03:19.:03:24.

universal credit any more. The record on personal independence

:03:25.:03:27.

payment, for example... We didn t get onto that. Only one in six of

:03:28.:03:34.

those notes have been paid. A toss pulling out of their condiment has

:03:35.:03:41.

been a nightmare. It's a very big minus point for the Secretary of

:03:42.:03:44.

State. -- Atos pulling out of bed contract. Welfare cuts are an

:03:45.:03:57.

unambiguous point for the government but other points more ambiguous I

:03:58.:04:02.

don't think it's technical complexity that makes IDS's reform a

:04:03.:04:07.

problem. The IT gets moved out with time. But even if it's in fermented

:04:08.:04:12.

perfectly, what it will achieve has been slightly oversold, I think and

:04:13.:04:17.

simplified incredibly. All it does is improve incentives to work for

:04:18.:04:21.

one section of the income scale and diminishes it at another. Basically,

:04:22.:04:26.

you are encouraged to go from working zero hours to 16 hours but

:04:27.:04:31.

your incentive to work beyond 1 goes down. That's not because it's a

:04:32.:04:34.

horrendous policy but because in work benefits systems are

:04:35.:04:37.

imperceptible. Most countries do worse than we do. -- benefits

:04:38.:04:48.

systems cannot be perfected. They need to tone down how much this can

:04:49.:04:51.

achieve even if it all goes flawlessly. There are clearly

:04:52.:04:53.

problems, particularly within limitation, but Labour is still wary

:04:54.:04:59.

of welfare reform. -- with implementation. Polls suggest it is

:05:00.:05:05.

rather popular. People may not know what's involved were like the sound

:05:06.:05:12.

of it. I think Janan is right to mark out the differences between

:05:13.:05:15.

welfare cuts and welfare reforms. They are related but distinct. Are

:05:16.:05:22.

we saying cuts are more popular than reform? They clearly are. The

:05:23.:05:29.

numbers, when you present people numbers on benefit reductions, are

:05:30.:05:37.

off the scale. Reform, for the reasons you explored in your

:05:38.:05:41.

interview, is incredibly compensated. What's interesting is

:05:42.:05:46.

that Labour haven't really definitively said what their

:05:47.:05:51.

position is on this. I think they like - despite what they may see in

:05:52.:05:56.

public occasionally - some of what universal credit might produce but

:05:57.:05:59.

they don't want to be associated with it. We probably won't know

:06:00.:06:07.

until if Ed Miliband is Prime Minister precisely what direction

:06:08.:06:12.

Labour will go. Immigration is still a hot topic in Westminster and

:06:13.:06:16.

throughout the country. This new Home Office minister, James

:06:17.:06:18.

Brokenshire, made an intervention. Let's see what he had to say. For

:06:19.:06:25.

too long, the benefits of immigration went to employers who

:06:26.:06:29.

wanted an easy supply of cheap labour or to the wealthy

:06:30.:06:32.

metropolitan elite who wanted cheap tradesmen and services, but not to

:06:33.:06:35.

the ordinary hard-working people of this country. With the result that

:06:36.:06:40.

the Prime Minister and everyone else has to tell us all whether they ve

:06:41.:06:45.

now got Portuguese or whatever it is Nanny is. Is this the most

:06:46.:06:49.

cack-handed intervention on an immigration issue in a long list? I

:06:50.:06:54.

think it is and when I saw this being trailed the night before, I

:06:55.:07:00.

worried for him. As soon as a minister of the Crown uses the

:07:01.:07:02.

phrase "wealthy metropolitan elite" more likely we see it in recession.

:07:03.:07:38.

We've just had the worst recession in several decades. It's no small

:07:39.:07:45.

problem but compared to what ministers like James Brokenshire has

:07:46.:07:49.

been saying for the past few years and also the reluctance to issue the

:07:50.:07:53.

report earlier, I thought that, combined with the speech, made it

:07:54.:07:58.

quite a bad week for the department. Was this a cack-handed attempt to

:07:59.:08:02.

appeal to the UKIP voters? I think so and he's predecessor had to leave

:08:03.:08:06.

the job because of having a foreign cleaner. It drew attention to the

:08:07.:08:11.

Tories' biggest problem, the out of touch problem. Most people around

:08:12.:08:15.

the country probably don't have a Portuguese nanny and you've just put

:08:16.:08:21.

a big sign over David Cameron saying, this man can afford a

:08:22.:08:26.

Portuguese Nanny. It is not the finest political operation ever

:08:27.:08:28.

conducted and the speech was definitely given by the Home Office

:08:29.:08:32.

to Number Ten but did Number Ten bother to read it? It was a complete

:08:33.:08:38.

shambles. The basic argument that there is a divide between a wealthy

:08:39.:08:42.

metropolitan elite and large parts of Middle Britain or the rest of the

:08:43.:08:48.

country I think is basically sound. It is but they are on the wrong side

:08:49.:08:53.

of it. What do you mean by that The Tory government is on the wrong

:08:54.:08:57.

side. This is appealing to UKIP voters and we know that UKIP is

:08:58.:09:02.

appealing to working-class voters who have previously voted Labour and

:09:03.:09:05.

Tory. If you set up that divide make sure you are on the right side

:09:06.:09:11.

stop When you talk about metropolitan members of the media

:09:12.:09:14.

class, they say that it is rubbish and everyone has a Polish cleaner.

:09:15.:09:20.

No, they don't. I do not have a clean! I don't clean behind the

:09:21.:09:26.

fridge, either! Most people in the country don't have a cleaner. The

:09:27.:09:31.

problem for the Tories on this is, why play that game? You can't

:09:32.:09:42.

out-UKIP UKIP. After two or three years of sustained Tory effort to do

:09:43.:09:45.

that, they will probably finish behind UKIP. Do we really want a

:09:46.:09:52.

political system where it becomes an issue of where your nanny or your

:09:53.:09:56.

cleaner is from, if you've got one? Unless, of course, they're illegal.

:09:57.:10:02.

But Portuguese or Italian or Scottish... And intervention was

:10:03.:10:06.

from Nick Clegg who said his wife was Dutch -- his mum was Dutch and

:10:07.:10:14.

his wife was Spanish. Not communism but who your cleaner is! It's the

:10:15.:10:20.

McCarthy question! Where does your cleaner come from. A lot of people

:10:21.:10:25.

will say are lucky to have a cleaner. I want to move onto selfies

:10:26.:10:31.

but first, on the Nigel Farage Nick Clegg debate, let's stick with

:10:32.:10:35.

the TV one. Who do you think will win? Nigel Farage. Clegg. He is a

:10:36.:10:43.

surprisingly good in debates and people have forgotten. I think Clegg

:10:44.:10:47.

is going to win. I think Farage has peaked. We're going to keep that on

:10:48.:10:57.

tape as well! Two 214 Clegg there. Selfies. Politicians are attempting

:10:58.:11:03.

to show they're down with the kids. Let's look at some that we've seen

:11:04.:11:05.

in recent days. Why are they doing this, Helen? I'm

:11:06.:11:51.

so embarrassed you call me reading the SNP manifesto, as I do every

:11:52.:11:56.

Saturday! They do it because it makes them seem authentic and that's

:11:57.:11:59.

the big Lie that social media tells you - that you're seeing the real

:12:00.:12:04.

person. You're not, you're seeing a very carefully manicured, more witty

:12:05.:12:07.

person. That doesn't work for politicians. It looks so fake and

:12:08.:12:15.

I'm still suffering the cringe I see every time I see Cameronserious

:12:16.:12:20.

phone face. Does Mr Cameron really think it big Sim up because he's on

:12:21.:12:24.

the phone to President Obama? Obama is not the personality he once was.

:12:25.:12:33.

There is an international crisis in Ukraine - of course we are expecting

:12:34.:12:37.

to be speaking to Obama! And if you were in any doubt about what a man

:12:38.:12:41.

talking on the telephone looks like, here's a photo. I must confess, I

:12:42.:12:46.

didn't take my own selfie. Did your nanny? My father-in-law took it

:12:47.:12:53.

Where is your father-in-law from? Scotland. Just checking. Janan, I

:12:54.:13:07.

think we've got one of you. The 1%! What a great telephone! Where did

:13:08.:13:15.

you get that telephone? It looks like Wolf Of Wall Street! That's

:13:16.:13:21.

what I go to bed in. It showed how excited Cameron was to be on the

:13:22.:13:25.

phone to Obama. All our politicians think they are living a mini version

:13:26.:13:29.

of US politics. President Obama goes on a big plane and we complain when

:13:30.:13:34.

George Osborne goes first class on first Great Western. They want to be

:13:35.:13:37.

big and important like American politics but it doesn't work. We'll

:13:38.:13:42.

see your top at next week! That's it for this week. Faxed all

:13:43.:13:47.

our guests. The Daily Politics is on all this week at lunchtime on BBC

:13:48.:13:52.

Two. We'll be back here same time, same place next week. Remember, if

:13:53.:13:56.

it's Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.

:13:57.:14:01.

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