08/06/2014 Sunday Politics West Midlands

David Cameron slaps down two of his most senior Cabinet ministers

over their public row about Islamist extremism in schools.

And it?s HER special advisor that has to resign.

We'll talk to the Shadow Education Secretary live

Should this man become the next President of the EU Commission?

David Cameron has staked a lot on stopping Luxembourg Federalist

But could the arch europhile yet get the top job?

Here's to the quarter of a million votes.

And we'll find out why this political party is celebrating with

In the Midlands, Daniel nind 99 success may have cost UKIP two MEPs.

In the Midlands, Daniel nind 99 reporter fire and you get a The Call

Centre in another county. Losing control.

Has Boris Johnson deserted the suburbs and become a zone one man?

And with me our panel of top political journalists,

who are always squabbling among themselves, Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee

and Janan Ganesh, who will be tweeting throughout the programme

This morning's political news is dominated

by the very public fall-out of Home Secretary Theresa May and

The high viz blue on blue spat between two senior

Conservatives centred around the Government's approach to tackling

The row burst into the open ahead of the publication tomorrow of

investigations into the so-called Trojan Horse plot in Birmingham

where it is alleged several state schools have been covertly taken

Mr Gove told The Times last week he was concerned that the Home Office

was unwilling to tackle extremism at its roots.

He said a robust response was needed to drain the swamp.

In response, Mrs May's special advisor tweeted,

"why is the Department for Education wanting to blame other people

Lord knows what more they have overlooked on the subject of the

An angry David Cameron ordered a speedy inquiry.

Last night, Mr Gove apologised to the Prime Minister, while Ms May's

Speaking on the BBC earlier this morning

this is what Foreign Secretary, William Hague, had to say.

There's been a disciplinary matter within the Government,

which the Prime Minister has dealt with in a very firm, clear way.

There will be discipline in the Government.

The main thing is the issue itself - tackling extremism in schools.

The Government will be very clear, very robust about anything that s

put children at risk - risk to their safety or learning.

Let's look at the positive of this. Theresa May 's people of saying she

has come off worse in theirs. Yelena Kushi is no more guilty than Michael

Gove he was guilty of indiscretion. She is no more guilty. Even during

13 years of new Labour 's psychodrama, I cannot remember an

act of hostility quite as naked as direct as publishing on a website

and intergovernmental letter. It suggests quite a lot of

conservatives do not think they will win next time. Why would there be a

leadership spat going on like this unless they thought there was a

vacancy? Inside the Cabinet, Theresa May is getting quite a bashing. In

the Sunday Times, someone has reported she is the date from hell.

She sidles up to people and is nakedly ambitious. I think that is

interesting. On the whole, nobody will understand the finesse

differences of opinion. It is not serious, it is not serious, it is

tactical. It'll be puzzling for most people and will probably fizzle out.

Has the Prime Minister slapped it down or will it rumble on? On the

politics of it, it will not fizzle out. What you have is Theresa May is

deadly serious about replacing David Cameron, not dislodging him but

replacing him if there is a vacancy. Michael Gove is deadly serious in

ensuring George Osborne succeeds David Cameron. It will be that

ongoing political rivalry. What is really interesting about this is the

Prime Minister is absolutely fed up with both of them. He is fed up with

Michael Gove full-size gearing of message. He had the row with Nick

Clegg and he had a row with Theresa May. He named Charles Barr and

criticised him in a lunch with the times. White brother he is the

Security adviser at the Home Office. -- he is the security advisor. He is

fed up with Theresa May for mounting an unannounced leader bid. What

separates Theresa May from Michael Gove on dealing with extremism? The

view from Michael Gove is that it shows no interest in Islamic

extremism until it manifests in violent form. Theresa May is

criticised for rolling back the programme which the previous Labour

government introduced to do with the previous Labour government

introduced to do with the Home Office has been made by other people

and made when the Home Office was not run by Theresa May but previous

home secretaries, even dating back to the Conservative government in

the 1990s. It is about the laxity of the Government. Michael Gove has

used extraordinary inflammatory language talking about draining the

swamp. I think Theresa May 's view is you can very easily inflamed

those emotions and create many more extremists the process. Michael Gove

would say that his approach is entirely consistent with the speech

the Prime Minister made to the Munich Security conference in 2 11

when the Prime Minister talked about how extremists

warp the grape great religion of Islam. The Birmingham school system

is going to be one of the most reported systems in Europe.

Joining me now from Kent is Shadow Education Secretary Tristram Hunt.

Should parents of Birmingham children be worried that some of

their schools are in the grip of an Islamist takeover? I think parents

in Birmingham schools will be very disappointed by the political

infighting going on in the Government. The briefings, the

resignations, the apologies. The real apology that Michael Gove needs

to deliver it to the pupil -- the pupils and parents of Birmingham.

There was a potential threat of radicalisation. He fell to act for

four years. The Labour Party is asking, when did he know the fact

that radicalisation could have been taking place? What has been going on

for the last four years? What we in the Labour Party want to see if much

stronger systems of local oversight and accountability to situations

like this do not arise again. Is there, in your view, if some of the

Birmingham schools, an Islamist takeover? What we have seen in the

leaked Ofsted report so far is fears about cultural isolation and an

overconcentration on Islamic teaching within the curriculum. We

want young people to celebrate their cultural identity, celebrate

themselves as Muslims. We also want them to have an education which

makes them succeed in multicultural 21st-century Birmingham. We want to

be quite tough on moves towards gender segregation, a restricted

curriculum. Birmingham is a multicultural city. We need an

education system which celebrates that. What is wrong with gender

segregation? You went to an all boys school. Where you have gender

segregation, we have had a long tradition in Catholic schooling

Where you have a state education system, which is about gender

equality between boys and girls and there is an unofficial policy of

gender segregation, that is unacceptable. We should not be

tarring communities with the same brush in terms of radicalisation. We

do want to see a successful, multicultural education. Two years

ago, Ofsted rated Parkview as outstanding. Now it looks like

tomorrow it is going into special measures. What is it up to? I do

think there is an issue for Ofsted that you can go from outstanding to

inadequate so quickly. That is why we are asking for a new criteria to

be introduced to look at a broad and balanced curriculum. We have healthy

sex and relationship education. There is a real issue this morning

as the BBC has been reporting on the night for the Department of

Education. We are hearing that some of those involved in the schools

were not allowed to open a free school on security grounds. They

were allowed to allow one of the schools to be taken over as an

academy. We have a lack of oversight and accountability in schools within

Birmingham. What the Labour Party wants is a local director of school

standards to make sure we challenge underperformance and make sure we

get in confronting Islamic extremism when it was in power? I was speaking

to Hazel blears and she was very clear about the prevent programme

which they rolled out when in office. A very atomised and

fragmented school system where every school is looked at from behind a

desk in Whitehall and he put that together and you do have an

increased risk of chances of radicalisation. You have attacked Mr

Gove for gross negligence. Was it the same -- you attacked Mr Gove for

gross negligence. We are dealing with a government which has been in

since 2010. The Government needs to hold the executive to account. We

note the Department Michael Gove was warned by a senior and respected

head teacher about fears over radicalism. What did he know and

what did he act upon? We are hearing more reports of conversations about

fears, about radicalisation, taking over some of the governing bodies of

schools. We need to know what ministers did. Let me continue. You

mention the capital to prevent strategy. Was it gross negligence

for Labour to regularly consult a man who once headed a group

dedicated to making Britain an Islamic state and wrote a book about

schools full of Taliban style decrees. I think the events in

Birmingham are enormously significant. About the nature of

multiculturalism, the nature of education, the role of civic

education, the role of faith schools. I will say to you this

morning that Birmingham City Council, Ofsted, the Labour Party,

the Department for Education were all involved in this conversation.

In 2010, ministers were warned about potential radicalisation of schools

and they fell to act. We need to know why, for years on, they allowed

this situation to exacerbate. When you look at the record of labour and

this government 's record, there are plenty of examples where both of you

fail to act. Would it not be better to drop the party politics and get

together to confront this problem for the sake of the children? There

are a number of reports going on in Birmingham. Some are led by the city

council, some by the Department for Education. Labour MPs this morning

have come forward with the Bishop of Birmingham talking about faith in

schools. If you have a minister failing to do their job, if you have

a minister being given warnings in 2010 and failing to act on them for

four years, the opposition has a role to hold the executive to

account. This is about the safety and standards of teaching for pupils

in Birmingham schools. It is about a great education for these young

people so they can succeed in a modern, multicultural Britain.

people so they can succeed in a about making sure we have great

vocational and technical education, the great academic education in our

schools. If we have more work to do to get people to the polling

booths, we must do that. We must with listen to what she says.

David Cameron has staked a lot on stopping the former PM of Luxembourg

- named by one newspaper as 'the most dangerous man in Europe'

because of his federalist views - from becoming the next president

Mr Cameron has reportedly described Jean Claude Juncker as a 'face from

Callanan who until last month led the European Conservatives

and Reformists group in Brussels. Welcome to you both.

and Reformists group in Brussels. and by a majority vote. If not Mr

Junker, then who? There are many available candidates, I am not going

to mention them in front of someone so esteemed as Elmar Brok. Give us

one name that you would prefer? The prime Minister of Sweden, Christine

Lagarde, the minister from Lithuania, these are people who have

a record of old reform. Junker is the ultimate Europe insider. We need

radical inform. We need to respond to the message the electorate gave

us in the elections -- radical reform. Junker said he had to lie in

public, he allowed the security services to conduct a dirty tricks

campaign against his opponent. This is not who we want leading the

European Commission. Elmar Brok since the European voters have sent

a message to the parliament that they are not happy with the status

quo, why would you want a man who is synonymous with the status quo?

First of all what Martin has said is wrong. He has not done tricks

against his opponents. He was very clear on that. He is also the man

who was always for changes. He made dramatic changes as head of the Euro

group, came out of the economic crisis which was a result of the

financial crisis, made politics possible, to stop this incredible

financial sector influence of our states. I believe he is a man who

works on the programme which Mrs Merkel and others have decided in

Dublin, for the reform of the European Union, less government But

we need Europe more and he is not a man from the 80s. He is a man of

this century and in this century he made his own policy. He is the

winner of the European elections, he has a majority will stop Mrs

LANguard is not running because she knows she will not get the majority

in the European Parliament. -- Christine Lagarde is not running. It

is the Council of minister is that decides. No, the European Parliament

has the final word. The European Council can make a proposal by

majority in the light of the European elections after

consultation with the European Parliament. The council cannot get a

candidate against the will of the European Parliament. Mr Junker has a

majority in the European Parliament. Theoretically he is right, the

Parliament has do vote on the candidates proposed by the council.

I want to challenge the view that somehow he won the European

elections. There is no provision for Jean Claude Junker to stand in the

elections. He is saying that the EEP party got the most number of seats

in the Parliament but none of the electorate knew they were taking

part in this election. How many people who voted Labour in the

United Kingdom realised that their vote would count towards a German

socialist to be a candidate for the commission of presidency is a

nonsensical proposal. The elections were 28 individual elections with

hundreds of parties across Europe. To try to claim there is a

democratic mandate for somebody nobody has heard from Luxembourg to

take over the commission is a nonsense. People should know him, if

I should say that ironically. Newspapers talking about members of

the family of his wife with Nazi links... What is the answer to

Martin Callinan's point? I think it is clear that British Conservatives

have no candidate because they are not a broad European family, they

have not impacted on the selection of top candidates but it is a form

of isolation of the British Tory Party. The Prime Minister said if Mr

Junker is appointed it could lead to Britain drifting towards the EU

exit, is that credible? Is it melodramatic? It is true that we

want to renegotiate the relationship. We want some serious

reform in Europe so the people who vote in a referendum will be able to

vote to stay in if that is what they want. We need a bold reformer,

somebody prepared to engage. That is not anti the interests of the UK. We

need to recognise there is a problem with public perception of the

European Union. Elmar Brok is proud to be one of the last bastions of

federalism that that is not where most of the public opinion is in

Europe. I understand why he wants his man installed but we need to

take into account the message of the letter -- the electorate. 25% of the

publishing of France were prepared to vote for an openly racist party.

We can't just ignore the signal that the electorate were sending us. If

enthusiasm for federalism was at an all-time low, it would be a slap in

the face for the voters of Europe to have a federalist as the president,

would it not? 70, 80% of the members of the European Parliament, selected

by their people, are pro-Europeans. These are the winners of the

European elections. Even in France, a majority of voters have voted

pro-European and that should be clear, not to make this a populist

thing which is not only to do with Europe. And we want to have a Europe

which is strong, the member states should do their things. We do not

want to have a European centralism, we do not want a European state

This is not at stake. Let's talk about the question of better

governance, let's talk about what was wrong in the past, we have to

become better, to change our programme in that question. That

should be the way we lead to come to positive results. Thank you for

that. Before we go, there is a British commissioner that needs to

be appointed to Brussels, do you like the sound of that? These are

matters for the Prime Minister, I am sure he has many excellent

candidates. Do you like the sound of it? Like previous British

commissioners, Chris Patten, Neil clinic, I have just lost an election

-- Neil Kinnock for the everybody who is asked would serve, I'm sure.

Just days ago UKIP were celebrating topping the poll in the European

They're claiming they'd have had two more MEPs

and the Greens two fewer had another party not confused the electorate.

What's more UKIP say it's the fault of the body

which was set up to oversee elections - the Electoral Commission

This is a party celebrating success at the European elections. They

didn't win a single MEP but nationally polled 250,000 votes

They are an independence from Europe, mostly people who were once

in UKIP, and that is rather the point. They may look like capers,

drink like capers, sound like capers -- -- sound like kippers, but they

are not. The name and the logo were displayed on this banner when the

party launched its campaign. UKIP suggest the look, the wording and

the inclusion of UK in now confused voters, and are looking at rewriting

such a wrong. The way that seats are allocated in a European election

under a proportional representation system is using this formula. It was

invented by a Belgian mathematician in 1878 and it is essentially this.

When all of the votes have been tallied up, the one with the most

seats gets the first MEPC in a region. The others are allocated

using votes cast divided by the number of seats gained plus one --

first MEP seat in a region. UKIP were concerned with South West and

London. There they say, when the last MEP seats were being allocated,

if everyone who had voted for an independence from Europe had meant

to vote for UKIP and you tallied their votes up, and added them to

UKIP, UKIP would have been up one in each region and the greens would

have lost them. Whether you can prove that voters did that by

mistake is a very different matter. UKIP may have to just chalk it up to

experience. It has happened before, back in the European elections of

1994. Then in England under the first past the post system. This

man, Richard Huggett, decided to stand as a little Democrat and

polled a significant number of votes. The Liberal Democrat

candidate at the time is now an MP. Many people voted and afterwards

realised that they had bubbly voted for -- probably voted for a little

Democrat, not a Liberal Democrat as they had been intending to do -

bubbly voted for a literal Democrat -- probably voted.

Mr Sanders got some consolation In 1998, laws came into rule on

so-called spoiler tactics and the Electoral Commission was

established. The Electoral Commission are based on the seventh

floor of this building and they did look into this issue prior to

voting. They have given us a statement that reveals the

conclusion they came to, part of which says, we decided that the name

of the party, and its description are sufficiently different to those

registered by the UK Independence Party, UKIP, to mean, in our

opinion, that voters were not likely to be confused if they appeared on

the same ballot paper. Pretty conclusive stuff. Back at the pub,

were an independence from Europe just being crafty, or do UKIP need

to wake up and smell the flowers? We attack them in all areas. An

independent study for Anglo Netherlands because I was involved

in the Dutch -- with the Dutch member of Parliament and the

description was UK Independence now, nobody has a monopoly on the word

independence. I have been fighting for independence since I started in

1994, before I joined UKIP. The party tell me they will stand again

at the general election next year. The ironies not lost on them or the

major parties of UKIP complaining that a smaller party has been taking

votes of them. Joining me now to discuss

this story is Gawain Towler. He's the UKIP candidate for the

South West region, who failed to get And in our Bristol studios is

the victorious Green MEP for How many of the 23,000 votes that

were cast for the Independence party were meant for you? Impossible to

tell. I want to congratulate Molly for getting elected. They are the

breaks. I do not think there is a purpose in complaining about boats

that are cast. Do you think you would have one otherwise? Yes, I do.

You have to look at the would have one otherwise? Yes, I do.

You have to look boats for parties people have not heard of and those

with a long tradition that people have heard of. I do not think there

is any doubt. If you saw the spoiled ballot papers, the amount of people

who had voted at the top and the bottom, most people are not anoraks,

they say, they are the people I want. They know what they are after.

I think it is at least told. It is said you owe your seat to And

Independence Party. It is strange for a man to say he could represent

people in the south-west better than me. There has been outpouring of

delight that a Green MP has finally been elected. A number of people

have been saying they have been voting all their lives and it is the

first time they have elected anybody. I am glad to represent them

in a significant legislature. What would you say to that? I find it

strange. I am perfectly happy for her to be elected. I feel the

electoral commission has questions to answer. But, congratulations to

Molly. Why do you want an extra seat for the Greens in the European

Parliament but your national share of the vote actually fell. We did

come under pressure nationally. If he is complaining about the role the

election commission said we could stand, the rule we were not happy

with was the off, ruling which said we were not a main party. We got

significantly less media time and that is why our belt actually fell.

Not on the Daily Politics or the Sunday Politics, where you were well

represented. Was it a problem for UKIP in other parts of the country?

Only in London. What do you think happened there? Very much the same.

I do not think there is any doubt, the number of people we have had

getting in touch saying, I am really sorry, I made a mess, that they

voted for the wrong party. They are the breaks. Politics is politics.

What I would like to see and what is reasonable, and I hope Molly would

agree, there needs to be a reform - a serious reform of the Electoral

Commission. There is no appeal process. They say it is not

confusing. Lets see if she thinks that. I make it a policy never to

agree with UKIP. What is important to note, if you look at the votes

and the way the votes fell out and the seats fell out in the

south-west, it is difficult for an Electoral Commission to turn boats

into seats. UKIP got 33% of the vote and 33% of the seats. For them, the

system worked very well in the south-west. Nationally, Greens did

not get represented as the vote share would require. That is because

you get very small number of seats in the different regions and you

have to reach a high threshold. The Green Party has a right to complain

about the level of seats we have ended up with. White rapper you have

complaints about the Electoral Commission? We need to move to a

proportional system for elections generally. If we poll around 7% 8%,

we should be looking at having 0, 40 seats in the national

legislature. We need to consider proportional representation for

national elections. Do you accept the ballot paper may have confused

some people? I think what happened is that some people in UKIP were

very worried. Worried about the rightward move of UKIP and the

authoritarian leadership of Nigel Farage. He set up a separate party.

That is what happens in politics, particularly when parties are led by

demagogues and are not focused on Democratic policy. Do you have any

legal redress to this? None whatsoever. Have you had legal

advice? I am told there is no redress. We do feel, I am sure Molly

does not agree with UKIP on anything so, if we say the sun rises in the

morning, she probably will disagree with that. If, at the next election,

there is a party called the Grown Party, will she then complain? There

needs to be some level of accountability and, without that,

one wonders what is going on. We have an organisation with enormous

and important power and influence which is setup to stop this of thing

going on. It has failed. Not has it has failed. Not present served in

Tower Hamlets and there have been massive problems with postal votes.

It is failing on almost everything it is supposed to do. Just to go

back for a final point from Molly. Should there be a right of appeal to

the rulings of the Electoral Commission? You need to have an

authoritative body that makes decisions in this area and we have

the Electoral Commission. It is about being sore losers on the part

of UKIP. I am delighted to represent people in the South West. Should

there be a right of appeal or not? You need an authoritative body and

the Electoral Commission is that. I do not think it should have a right

to appeal. We say goodbye to viewers

in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20 minutes,

we'll be discussing extremism Hello once again from the Mhdlands.

I'm Patrick Burns. And in a world full of

career politicians, both our guests had

high`flying professional jobs Karen Bradley, Conservative MP for

Staffordshire Moorlands, was a senior manager at the

accountancy firm KPMG. She's now a

Home Office Minister. Valerie Vaz, Labour MP for

Walsall South, was a deputy district judge

and then a tv presenter. She's on the Health Select Committee

and has written an influential report about policies

against obesity and diabetes. They came in promising to bd

"the Greenest Government evdr". But for environmentalists,

the promised 'plastic bag t`x' doesn't exactly make up for

what could prove this Parliament's

final Queen's Speech. The Infrastructure Bill easds

planning restrictions on fr`cking, road`building,

housing development. And a new generation of

'Garden Cities'. Remember the last Labour

Government's Ecotown propos`ls, which caused such ructions

in Warwickshire? The Government say their

Garden Cities would be built only where

local communities want them. Indeed, the idea of a garden city in

Birmingham or the Black Country has been given the backing of the

National Trust. They suggest it could be called Albion. Kardn, how

about a lovely garden city hn the middle of the Staffordshire

Moorlands? I am glad you visited that lovely pub. I think thd point

about the garden cities is that it is making development where local

people wanted. People in thd Staffordshire Moorlands are very

clear that we need housing, we have villages where housing is ndeded,

local communities make the decision without housing should be. What

people are most worried abott in regards to housing is any proposals

that Ed Miliband has make Stoke`on`Trent grow the authority

where they make it 40,000 homes in Staffordshire Moorlands without our

permission. Valerie, you ard the MP for Walsall. Black Country LP. This

idea of Albion, are you an @lbion supporter? I am not so worrhed about

the name. I am worried about any building on the green belt. I think

there is plenty of places, land banking as it is called, whdre there

are places where there is planning permission for posers to be built ``

houses to be built, but this was one of the proposals when he did his

review for a labourer. If wd could move onto one the other provisions,

combating modern slavery and organised crime. This will keep you

busy. I am very excited abott it. I am proud Britain is going to be the

first European country to ldgislate about modern slavery, and I'm

incredibly proud to be the Linister to take this through. This hs a

crime we're just starting to understand. To be at the forefront

of fighting it is something we should be proud of. And Valdrie you

have got to welcome that. Wd do But there was no mention of the NHS in

the Queen's speech. There are lots of problems in the NHS, not least

this crisis in A While I welcome the modern slavery Bill that Karen

is going to take the Parlialent I think we need to still hear from the

government about what we're going to do to put the NHS rate. Quick final

sentence. The NHS needs to be able to get on and deliver the sdrvice to

people, and we need to be able to be sure we're dealing with the serious

crime of modern slavery. Valerie shakes her head. Still to come

today: Is it a political earthquake, a turning point perhaps just a

bubble? UKIP have fun in thd Euro election playroom, but if they

shrivel in the heat of the general election kitchen, it would not be

the first time, would it? Wd will be questioning UKIP's staying power a

little later on. We know about the row over

'ever`closer union' in Europe. Now we have our own version of it

here at home. More and more of our emergency

services are being lumped together. for the entire West Midlands.

The 'strategic alliance' between West Mercia and Warwickshire

Police continues to blossom. And now it seems our fire services' control

centres could be joining forces too. Political Reporter

Joanne Gallacher. Another cold comes through `t this

call centre in Shrewsbury. Does it matter where your 999 Collins

answered? Shropshire spy chhef claims he could see ?300,000 a year

is the sheer The Call Centrd with another brigade. Our budget is due

to go into deficit in 2017. Times are undoubtedly tough.

The service has already had to cut its budget by

?3.2 million since 2010 and it has to save a further

?900,000 over the next six xears. It's reckoned merging

fire control centres could deliver savings of

around ?300,000. There are also concerns abott

breaking the connections with the fire service and the

community it serves. If we actually decide to merge

another fire control, there can be another fire control attachdd to

another Fire and Rescue Services, it means calls will be taken bx that

Fire and Rescue Services, and the resources will be dispatched in

Shropshire. The fire authority's planning how

it'll deliver services up to 20 0, as part of that process

the public's being consulted but unions are concerned

by the proposal. Union members are concerned because

their jobs are under threat. I members in stations are concerned as

well because of the level of support and everything that a fire control

room provides for us. There have also been questions about Shropshire

Fire and Rescue Services's cash reserves. Political pressurd is

mounting to use it rather than looking at closing emerging

services. One thing which I still have not had adequately answered is

that they are sitting on reserves of almost ?9 million. I'm very keen to

find out what the intent to do with that money because they are

considerable reserves. What does the Chief Fire Officer think of that?

Wouldn't you say that it is raining now, reserves and therefore a rainy

day? They will be spent over the next five or six years. Thex give

the Fire Authority options `bout changes they can make in thd future,

proposals we put to them. The last Labour Government wanted to

build a regional fire control base in Wolverhampton. The centrd was

moth`balled by the Coalition as the costs spiralled out of control.

The building is now being used as an IT centre but could the ide` of

regional sharing of fire services be rising like a phoenix

from the ashes? Turning out to be an expenshve way

of saving money. Valerie, I remember visiting that fire control centre

that was under your governmdnt, ?10 million to set it up then rdntal

costs of ?1.8 million. It rdminds us just how good your government was at

wasting government money `` public money? I don't think it is wasting

money. It is a good thing, hsn't it, what we have to hear from the Fire

Brigade union, what we heard in the package, is you're taking away the

local knowledge people have in the area and moving somewhere else. With

a loss of six jobs, Staffordshire has moved to Birmingham. All of that

local knowledge has disappe`red That really is the issue. It is a

long way from localism, isn't it, when you have what looks like

creeping regionalisation? There is certainly no push from Westlinster

for a regionalisation or anx centralisation. Valerie's point

about centralisation is a concern to people. I have spent many h`ppy

hours talking to my Chief Fhre Officer about the work they are

doing to ensure that we get the service we need in the merlhns and

to make sure border areas gdt properly looked after. If that is

what the local force wants to do, I think there can be savings to be

made. I have seen it from mx district Council, it has sh`red

services with the neighbourhng borough for over eight years and it

has worked very well. With `ll of this sharing of services in the name

of reducing costs, no one h`s voted for any of this under your

government, yet we are seeing a very substantial shift in the wax local

services and emergency servhces are being delivered? I want to see the

money being spent on the front line. If locally or Chief Fire Officer,

working with the teams, or the Chief Constable, the Police and Crime

Commissioner, whoever it max be .. Our service is getting worsd?

Ensuring the services stay the same or better. We can welcome any

savings being made. And this process is going to carry on even if you are

elected in the government. Xour deficit`reduction programme is going

to have to take is on the s`me direction. There is no eviddnce to

say this reorganisation needs to be done. I think it is important to be

able to have a service, we `re under a lot of threats from all sorts of

areas, and these fire services are on the front line which can protect

us and lots of different waxs. Thank you both very much indeed.

In a fortnight, our seven ndw West Midlands MEPs will take thehr seats

in the European Parliament. Among them will be three from

the UK Independence Party. They topped the poll here

by a clear five percentage points.

Nigel Farage predicted a "political earthquake".

But as Elizabeth Glinka explains, UKIP's failure to win the

Newark by`election raises ydt again the question whether or not

they're capable of winning seats in next year's General Election

UKIP is not a protest vote! Nor a protest movement! But a gentine

fully developed political p`rty For years UKIP has been dislissed by

opponents as a single issue party, that issue being our relationship

with the European Union, and it's in European elections where

they've enjoyed their best results. This time round UKIP topped the

polls nationally and in our region. They captureed more than 400,00

votes. Their 31% per cent in the West Midlands was slhghtly

higher than the national avdrage ` giving them three MEPs.

One more than five years ago. But the party is now showing signs

of being a threat in local dlections as well. They now 42 councillors

across the region although they don't yet control any counchls

and don't have any MPs. UKIP picked up council seats in

places like Walsall, Wyre Forest, Newcastle`under`Lyme and Dudley

where it now has nine counchllors, one of whom was also elected

to the European Parliament. We will go forward in a poshtive

manner, and what we will do is put our country first, freedom first,

and we will save our countrx from the EU, and next year at thd general

election, guess what? We're going to take seats!

The test of that bold claim is now less than 12 months `way

yet the Newark by`election suggests it may not be that simple.

UKIP topped the European poll in two thirds of our local authority areas.

They also now have seats on 15 separate local councils. UKHP's

Jim Carver is an umbrella`m`ker by trade, but he's folding`tp

the day`job to take over as one of those seven new Midlands MEPs.

Congratulations. But I have to say, what a difference two weeks made in

the sense that you carried `ll before you in that European

election, but apply those s`me figures to a first past the post

situation in a by`election for Parliament, and suddenly yot're

comfortably behind the Conservatives? We're talking about a

particularly safe seat, the 44th seat in the country. We havd managed

to increase a revolt by six. `` a revolt. I myself was up there

campaigning couple of days. We went into that campaign, bear in mind the

Conservative government called that by`election, it took just tdn days

after the European elections, so for all the parties, it was a short

campaign. Two weeks after the other elections, one day after thd Queen's

Speech, the emphasis on Quedn's Speech day was all about thhngs like

the economy, the infrastructure pensions. It occurred to me that

this is the main dialogue that will dominate the general election. It

was between the main two parties, you are not part of that re`l

debate. Not at the moment. H believe our time will come. We are hn a

strong parliamentary city for the Labour Party and the Conservatives.

I think it is only a matter of time before we do. Look where thd SNP are

now. Let's name names. Wherd are your real targets for the Wdst

Midlands? I think one has to look at where we have picked up the last

number of council seats. I think Dudley has got an opportunity.

Newcastle`under`Lyme. It is my contention that what we havd

actually done is engage with the court party electorate. If ht wasn't

for UKIP, the turnout would be lower. I think we will go into next

year's elections, and if yot look at what happened in Newark, looking at

Karen and Valerie... I belidve what Newark showed is that there is not a

parliamentary constituency with a majority of 10,000 or under which is

not safe. And looking at thd numbers in Walsall South, UKIP 22,000,

Labour 20,000. That is in the European elections. I just want to

take slight umbrage with wh`t James has said. It is a kind of phck and

mix party, they do not have any actual policies. Nigel Farage has

thrown away the 2010 policids and is now saying, we might do Dudley. Or

kind of like a pick and mix, they kind of like a pick and mix, they

have not got a set of true policies other than Nigel Farage seehng, I am

Thatcher's true air. Rubbish. It is true. Whether it is rubbish or not,

let's look at the numbers from the Staffordshire Moorlands.

Conservatives, 6800. Yes, undoubtedly UKIP did very wdll in

the European elections, in 2009 as well. What Newark showed is that

actually when you fight a proper campaign, you are there on the

ground fighting for a vote, the voters appreciate that. That is what

we saw in the Newark by`election this week. The other thing worth

seeing is that the people who voted in the European elections for UKIP

in 2009. Two you tip `` UKIP MEPs. Doesn't that show the strength of

UKIP in the region? We won three seats, that shows the strength and

that shows how we as a partx are engaging people from across the

political spectrum. Not really. By`elections are always tough for

the Party of God rent whatever it is. `` party of government. On real

issues like the Council, thd Labour Party took the share of the vote,

31%. Those are the issues that really matter. UKIP were expecting

to get over 30% of the vote in the by`election in Newark, and they

didn't, they got a lower cotrt in the by`election. Did I pity you

Valerie, the issue that risds from the European elections in

Parliamentary constituencies like Tamworth with the Conservathves

remain in control. The Torids are targeting areas where you are in

control, Labour failed to whn overall control, in Worcestdr,

Gloucester, important target areas. It is the pool of UKIP that in some

extent contributes? There h`s to be a discussion about what goes on in

Europe. There is an underlyhng discontent, and I also feel Europe

is too remote and making decisions without talking to local people

David Cameron says you need to rebuild support from UKIP. How you

going to do it? It is about engaging with voters. You go on the doorstep,

meet people, and they will go out and vote for you. Briefly from you,

Jim? The Conservatives were in complete disarray in Europe. Over 50

members of Parliament, I believe that we're on verge of a sensational

victory. Thank you very much. Let's catch`up with some of the

other political developments here over the past week. Our round`up in

60 Seconds, is brought to us today by our BBC West Midlands Political

Reporter, Kathryn Stanczyczxn. More than 30,000 graves will have to

be exhumed to make way for HS2, among them a burial ground

at Park Street in Birminghal. The Conservatives have retaken

control of Worcester City Council. It follows a no`confidence vote in

the Labour administration which had only been in control for a xear

West Midlands Police Commissioner Bob Jones has written to thd

Prime Minister calling for ` public inquiry into the death of

three men in the Birmingham riots. Eight people were cleared of murder

after a judge raised concerns about

anonymous witnesses. There is a whole area where we have

not managed to get an answer. I think we have a duty to givd the

family is the answer is that they need and deserve.

Paul Shotton, the deputy le`der of Stoke`on`Trent City Council,

has stepped down after sendhng texts praising the council

to BBC Radio Stoke using fake names.

And Home Secretary Theresa Lay and Education Secretary Michael Gove

from the so`called Trojan Horse plot in Birmingham schools

David Cameron has ordered the Cabinet Secretary to investhgate

this Trojan War between two of his senior colleagues. It is a

nightmare. One thing to keep unruly people under control, backbdnchers,

but when you have two big bdasts at each other's throat it is a complete

disaster? The whole governmdnt is absolutely committed and working

together to tackle the thre`t that extremism presents to us all. There

is a perception that has `` there has been a political reluct`nce to

tackle this. Possibly the stggestion it is too hot to handle polhtically?

That is not the case. I know the work going on across governlent to

make sure we are tackling this and we're brave about tackling ht so

everyone can be reassured about the government's response to thhs very

worrying threat. The Shadow Education Secretary accused Michael

Gove of being ministerial incompetence. Is it helpful to

engage in politicking of thhs sort in an issue that is serious? I think

you have hit the nail on thd head. It is a very serious issue, when we

need to look at very carefully. Two very senior Cabinet ministers

fighting with each other is not a good thing. The Prime Minister has

to get a third party to intdrvene between the two. We will sed what

happens when the Ofsted report comes out next week and then we c`n decide

what the main issue is with regard to the Trojan Horse. I imaghne

Michael Gove is very `` verx keen to address this. Will the government

eventually get the bottom of this to satisfy public unease? I thhnk that

is the most important thing, but the public has been reassured and knows

this issue has been dealt whth. My thanks to you both.

in BBC Radio Shropshire's Hotseat with Jim Hawkins

will be the Conservative Defence Minister and Ludlow MP

Philip Dunne. That will be from nine o'clock next Friday morning.

It's Friday the 13th. So with any luck I'll be here again

next week. This though is where we rejoin Andrew Neil.

my guests. That is it for the Sunday Politics in London. Back to Andrew.

Is enough being done to tackle extremism in schools?

Will Mr Cameron stopped Mr Junker, will make

we are joined by the founder of the Quilliam Association. If you read

the Sunday Telegraph this morning, there is a real problem. If you read

the Observer, there is not much of a problem. What is the situation in

your view in Birmingham? Allegations are seen to be -- if music was not

being taught as it should be. Instead of the rating the national

holidays here during the Christmas period, children were sent off

instead on religious pilgrimage to Mecca, then I think something is

going on. From my knowledge, I know about some of the strategies to

influence. These strategies are known as gradualism. The idea, like

the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is to join the institutions of society

and influence from within -- from within. It is a gradual approach to

Islamicisation society. We have seen that happening in other areas, such

as the decision by the Law Society to call it shy and issue it out as

guidance for solicitors. They are saying this means that women inherit

half of what men saying this means that women inherit

and adopted children do not get any inheritance. Apostates do not get

any inheritance. These are guidelines being issued by the Law

Society by Islamic. It is a medieval take on Islam. That is what is

meant. We see the same names popping up again and again in different

situations in Birmingham. Is it a planned infiltration? In my

profession of you and planned infiltration? In my

profession of you having spent 3 years on the leadership of an

Islamist organisation, having been involved

Islamist organisation, having been and setting up schools, I am very

Islamist organisation, having been certain is a deliberate plan to

influence the students of this country with a medieval

interpretation of my own faith to bring about a medieval, conservative

view, and enforce things like segregation on boys and girls within

our public institutions. With these things be acceptable if they were

explicitly they schools? If they were state. We had state Anglican

faith schools. We have state Catholic faith schools as well.

Would it be acceptable if these were state Islamic schools? That is a

policy question. I am not generally in favour. I would believe in this

establishment. I am not a fan of faith schools. I do think the

solution is to ban them. I do think these schools should start working

out with an engaging with the wider communities and not being insular

and looking inwards. It is very important. The Ofsted report is

coming out tomorrow. We have already had a taste about what it is saying

about some of the schools. Is it a serious problem? It is a very

serious problem. It comes from the segregation of children into

intensely populated areas where everyone is Muslim virtually. You

have to have a system of spreading children between schools. It very

often happens, even with a secular school like this. Nearby Catholic or

Church of England schools become like-for-like schools and that

leaves the rest of the state schools to become all of one faith. I think

all of the parties are being quite hypocritical about the profound

problem of continuing to have faith schools. You have Orthodox Jewish

schools with extraordinary dogma being taught. Indeed very strict

Catholic schools with amazing dogma being taught. To somehow only get

worried when it is Islamic, when it is Muslim schools, becomes a

problem. You have to look at the whole issue and said the state

should simply withdraw from the business of faith education. Like

France? Yes, a secular school. The overall government policy is to take

power away. The dilemma with that is that it comes with dangers. Some

schools will be incompetent and some schools will be more than

incompetent, they will be maligned in some respects. The one bit of

this policy which has never been entirely squared is how do you

devolve and retain a basic minimum of educational standards and

behavioural standards while doing it? There is an even deeper quandary

for Britain. We have prided ourselves on allowing radical views

that stop short of violence. We took on Karl Marx and the rest of Europe

would not have him. The rest of Europe could not believe how

tolerably well of radical preachers in the 1990s. Do we stick with that

view? The risks were greater than they were 100 years ago. We do

expect, whatever peoples faith, that our children, at the expense of the

taxpayer, are educated, not instructed, not indoctrinated,

educated. We do expect that and also that boys and girls are treated

equally. One of the things the board in Birmingham will be looking at

which has Andrew Mitchell on it the former development Secretary,

because he is a Birmingham MP full Sutton, they are really concerned

about whether the girls are being treated as second-class citizens.

There has been a lot of work done on empowerment of girls. Shirley

Williams made the point that what Michael Gove has done by creating

free schools and academies is undermined the work of local

education authorities. They think they are traditional bodies which

are not open to reform. One school in Birmingham which is accused of

being in trouble is a local education school. They cannot have

the other side. Under Michael Gove, they are answerable to the Secretary

of State. It is down to Ofsted. Ofsted is giving the schools, not

that long ago, outstanding marks. There are big questions about the

oversight of schools. Tristan Hunt was trying to answer that point By

tapping it cannot all have gone pear shaped in two years. How do you

think that will play out? -- it think that will play out? -- it

cannot have gone pear shaped. The story was broken in February. It

will keep playing out. The report that was due out

will keep playing out. The report July, I think. We are expecting two

points. -- reports. We have to look at questions of Ofsted and other

institutions in our society, even government departments, where idea

of taxing non-violent extremism became a too boot in this country.

-- a taboo. They must be rebuffed the challenge, as we would expect

racism to be challenged. In the argument between Michael Gove and

Theresa May, where do you side? They should be challenged openly and

robust leap by civilian society It was settled by the Prime Minister

and is government policy. I had a hand in advising or consulting. I

think Fiona Cunningham was forced to resign because what she did violates

official government policy. It resign because what she did violates

has not been implemented yet. resign because what she did violates

decision he have to make. It is too late for that he is into deep. If he

takes over the job, Cameron is left with egg on its face. From the

beginning, he did not have his voice with the weight of the British

Conservative Party, with ankle and Arkle, the rest of them. He is

reaping -- Angela This is your most popular...

Is there anything Mr Clegg can do is to mark the idea is to define

clearly a liberal brand, or at least I hope it is. It is not good enough

for us to say the Liberal Democrats challenge the Tories on this, on the

fairer society, and challenge the Labour Party on a strong economy. We

need to define what we stand for. That is what I call a liberal brand,

assertive liberalism. I have been there myself and I think that is

what he will be speaking about. Standing up for liberal values, to

finding -- defining what they are. Disestablishment in getting younger

people re-engage with politics. The overwhelming number are actually

liberal. We only have about 20 seconds. I suggest to you it is too

late. Sign up with the one principle on which he stood is Europe. -- the

one principle on which he stood if Europe. That is why he has been

doing so badly. He cannot get out of the hole he is in. If you fight

three general elections to the left of Labour and on the third when you

are in coalition with the Tories, you have got a problem. I will be

back next week. Remember if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.

What's the hardest thing about being a foster parent?

You're constantly trying to build the elusive trust.