15/01/2017 Sunday Politics West Midlands


15/01/2017

Andrew Neil and Patrick Burns with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Guests include Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron MP, Max Mosley and Piers Morgan.


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It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

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Is the Prime Minister prepared to end Britain's membership

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of the EU's single market and its customs union?

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We preview Theresa May's big speech, as she seeks to unite the country

:00:43.:00:45.

Is the press a force for good or a beast that needs taming?

:00:46.:00:52.

As the Government ponders its decision, we speak to one

:00:53.:00:55.

of those leading the campaign for greater regulation.

:00:56.:00:59.

Just what kind of President will Donald Trump be?

:01:00.:01:05.

And the campaign for the well, joins us live.

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And to help me make sense of all that, three of the finest

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hacks we could persuade to work on a Sunday - Steve Richards,

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They'll be tweeting throughout the programme, and you can join

:01:34.:01:41.

So, Theresa May is preparing for her big Brexit speech on Tuesday,

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in which she will urge people to give up on "insults"

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and "division" and unite to build, quote, a "global Britain".

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Some of the Sunday papers report that the Prime Minister will go

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The Sunday Telegraph splashes with the headline: "May's big

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gamble on a clean Brexit", saying the Prime Minister

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will announce she's prepared to take Britain out of membership

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of the single market and customs union.

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The Sunday Times has a similar write-up -

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they call it a "clean and hard Brexit".

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The Brexit Secretary David Davis has also written a piece in the paper

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hinting that a transitional deal could be on the cards.

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And the Sunday Express says: "May's Brexit Battle Plan",

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explaining that the Prime Minister will get tough with Brussels

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and call for an end to free movement.

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Well, let's get some more reaction on this.

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I'm joined now from Cumbria by the leader

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of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.

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Mr Farron, welcome back to the programme. The Prime Minister says

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most people now just want to get on with it and make a success of it.

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But you still want to stop it, don't you? Well, I certainly take the view

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that heading for a hard Brexit, essentially that means being outside

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the Single Market and the customs union, is not something that was on

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the ballot paper last June. For Theresa May to adopt what is

:03:08.:03:10.

basically the large all Farage vision of Britain's relationship

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with Europe is not what was voted for last June. It is right for us to

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stand up and say that a hard Brexit is not the democratic choice of the

:03:20.:03:22.

British people, and that we should be fighting for the people to be the

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ones who have the Seat the end of this process, not have it forced

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upon them by Theresa May and David Davis. When it comes though dual

:03:31.:03:34.

position that we should remain in the membership of the Single Market

:03:35.:03:38.

and the customs union, it looks like you are losing the argument, doesn't

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it? My sense is that if you believe in being in the Single Market and

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the customs union are good things, I think many people on the leave site

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believe that, Stephen Phillips, the Conservative MP until the autumn who

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resigned, who voted for Leave but believe we should be in the Single

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Market, I think those people believe that it is wrong for us to enter the

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negotiations having given up on the most important part of it. If you

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really are going to fight Britain's corner, then you should go in there

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fighting the membership of the Single Market, not give up and

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whitefly, as Theresa May has done before we even start. -- and wave

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the white flag. Will you vote against regret Article 50 in the

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Commons? We made it clear that we want the British people to have the

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final Seat -- vote against triggering. Will you vote against

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Article 50. Will you encourage the House of Lords to vote against out

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Article 50? I don't think they will get a chance to vote. They will have

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a chance to win the deuce amendments. One amendment we will

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introduce is that there should be a referendum in the terms of the deal.

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It is not right that Parliament on Government, and especially not civil

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servants in Brussels and Whitehall, they should stitch-up the final

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deal. That would be wrong. It is right that the British people have

:05:00.:05:04.

the final say. I understand that as your position. You made it clear

:05:05.:05:10.

Britain to remain a member of the Single Market on the customs union.

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You accept, I assume, that that would mean remaining under the

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jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, continuing free movement

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of people, and the free-trade deals remained in Brussels' competence. So

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it seems to me that if you believe that being in the Single Market is a

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good thing, then you should go and argue for that. Whilst I believe

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that we're not going to get a better deal than the one we currently have,

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nevertheless it is up to the Government to go and argue for the

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best deal possible for us outside. You accept your position would mean

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that? It would mean certainly being in the Single Market and the customs

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union. It's no surprise to you I'm sure that the Lib Dems believe the

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package we have got now inside the EU is going to be of the Nutley

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better than anything we get from the outside, I accept the direction of

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travel -- is going to be the Nutley better. At the moment, what the

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Government are doing is assuming that all the things you say Drew,

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and there is no way possible for us arguing for a deal that allows in

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the Single Market without some of those other things. If they really

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believed in the best for Britain, you would go and argue for the best

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for Britain. Let's be clear, if we remain under the jurisdiction of the

:06:19.:06:25.

ECJ, which is the court that governs membership of the Single Market,

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continued free movement of people, the Europeans have made clear, is

:06:29.:06:33.

what goes with the Single Market. And free-trade deals remaining under

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Brussels' competence. If we accepted all of that is the price of

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membership of the Single Market, in what conceivable way with that

:06:42.:06:43.

amount to leaving the European Union? Well, for example, I do

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believe that being a member of the Single Market is worth fighting for.

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I personally believe that freedom of movement is a good thing. British

:06:54.:06:57.

people benefit from freedom of movement. We will hugely be hit as

:06:58.:07:01.

individuals and families and businesses. Mike I understand, but

:07:02.:07:06.

your writing of leaving... There the butt is that if you do except that

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freedom of movement has to change, I don't, but if you do, and if you are

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Theresa May, and the problem is to go and fight for the best deal,

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don't take it from Brussels that you can't be in the Single Market

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without those other things as well, you don't go and argue the case. It

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depresses me that Theresa May is beginning this process is waving the

:07:30.:07:32.

white flag, just as this morning Jeremy Corbyn was waving the white

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flag when it comes to it. We need a Government that will fight Britain's

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corner and an opposition that will fight the Government to make sure

:07:41.:07:44.

that it fights. Just explain to our viewers how we could remain members,

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members of the Single Market, and not be subject to the jurisdiction

:07:51.:07:56.

of the European court? So, first of all we spent over the last many,

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many years, the likes of Nigel Farage and others, will have argued,

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you heard them on this very programme, that Britain should

:08:04.:08:07.

aspire to be like Norway and Switzerland for example, countries

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that are not in the European Union but aren't the Single Market. It is

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very clear to me that if you want the best deal for Britain -- but are

:08:15.:08:18.

in the Single Market. You go and argue for the best deal. What is the

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answer to my question, you haven't answered it

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the question is, how does the Prime Minister go and fight for the best

:08:29.:08:33.

deal for Britain. If we think that being in the Single Market is the

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right thing, not Baxter -- not access to it but membership of it,

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you don't wave the white flag before you enter the negotiating room. I'm

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afraid we have run out of time. Thank you, Tim Farron.

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The leaks on this speech on Tuesday we have seen, it is interesting that

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Downing Street has not attempted to dampen them down this morning, in

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the various papers, do they tell us something new? Do they tell us more

:09:04.:09:07.

of the Goverment's aims in the Brexit negotiations? I think it's

:09:08.:09:10.

only a confirmation of something which has been in the mating really

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for the six months that she's been in the job. The logic of everything

:09:15.:09:20.

that she's said since last July, the keenness on re-gaining control of

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migration, the desire to do international trade deals, the fact

:09:26.:09:27.

that she is appointed trade Secretary, the logic of all of that

:09:28.:09:31.

is that we are out of the Single Market, quite probably out of the

:09:32.:09:34.

customs union, what will happen this week is a restatement of a fairly

:09:35.:09:38.

clear position anyway. I think Tim Farron is right about one thing, I

:09:39.:09:42.

don't think she will go into the speech planning to absolutely

:09:43.:09:45.

definitively say, we are leaving those things. Because even if there

:09:46.:09:53.

is a 1% chance of a miracle deal, where you stay in the Single Market,

:09:54.:09:55.

somehow get exempted from free movement, it is prudent to keep

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hopes on that option as a Prime Minister. -- to keep open that

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option. She is being advised both by the diplomatic corps and her

:10:04.:10:06.

personal advisers, don't concede on membership of the Single Market yet.

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We know it's not going to happen, but let them Europeans knock us back

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on that,... That is probably the right strategy for all of the

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reasons that Jarlan outlined there. What we learned a bit today is the

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possibility of some kind of transition or arrangements, which

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David Davies has been talking about in a comment piece for one of the

:10:30.:10:33.

Sunday papers. My sense from Brexiteers aborting MPs is that they

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are very happy with 90% of the rhetoric -- Brexit sporting MPs. The

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rhetoric has not been dampened down by MPs, apart from this transitional

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arrangement, which they feel and two France, on the one front will

:10:50.:10:52.

encourage the very dilatory EU to spend longer than ever negotiating a

:10:53.:10:56.

deal, and on the other hand will also be exactly what our civil

:10:57.:10:59.

service looks for in stringing things out. What wasn't explained

:11:00.:11:04.

this morning is what David Davies means by transitional is not that

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you negotiate what you can in two years and then spend another five

:11:09.:11:11.

years on the matter is that a lot of the soul. He thinks everything has

:11:12.:11:17.

to be done in the two years, -- of the matter are hard to solve. But it

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would include transitional arrangements over the five years.

:11:21.:11:25.

What we are seeing in the build-up is the danger of making these kind

:11:26.:11:30.

of speeches. In a way, I kind of admired her not feeding the media

:11:31.:11:33.

machine over the autumn and the end of last year cars, as Janan has

:11:34.:11:39.

pointed out in his columns, she has actually said quite a lot from it,

:11:40.:11:43.

you would extrapolate quite a lot. We won't be members of the Single

:11:44.:11:48.

Market? She said that in the party conference speech, we are out of

:11:49.:11:54.

European court. Her red line is the end of free movement, so we are out

:11:55.:11:58.

of the Single Market. Why has she sent Liam Fox to negotiate all of

:11:59.:12:02.

these other deals, not that he will succeed necessarily, but that is the

:12:03.:12:06.

intention? We are still in the customs union. You can extrapolate

:12:07.:12:09.

what she will say perhaps more cautiously in the headlines on

:12:10.:12:14.

Tuesday. But the grammar of a big speech raises expectations, gets the

:12:15.:12:17.

markets worked up. So she is doing it because people have said that she

:12:18.:12:21.

doesn't know what she's on about. But maybe she should have resisted

:12:22.:12:25.

it. Very well, and she hasn't. The speech is on Tuesday morning.

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Now, the public consultation on press regulation closed this

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week, and soon ministers will have to decide whether to

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enact a controversial piece of legislation.

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Section 40 of the Crime and Courts Act, if implemented,

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could see newspapers forced to pay legal costs in libel and privacy

:12:38.:12:40.

If they don't sign up to an officially approved regulator.

:12:41.:12:50.

The newspapers say it's an affront to a free press,

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while pro-privacy campaigners say it's the only way to ensure

:12:53.:12:55.

a scandal like phone-hacking can't happen again.

:12:56.:12:56.

Ellie Price has been reading all about it.

:12:57.:13:02.

It was the biggest news about the news for decades,

:13:03.:13:06.

a scandal that involved household names, but not just celebrities.

:13:07.:13:11.

They've even hacked the phone of a murdered schoolgirl.

:13:12.:13:14.

It led to the closure of the News Of The World,

:13:15.:13:17.

a year-long public inquiry headed up by the judge Lord Justice Leveson,

:13:18.:13:26.

and in the end, a new press watchdog set up by Royal Charter,

:13:27.:13:30.

which could impose, among other things, million-pound fines.

:13:31.:13:31.

If this system is implemented, the country should have confidence

:13:32.:13:34.

that the terrible suffering of innocent victims

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like the Dowlers, the McCanns and Christopher Jefferies should

:13:36.:13:38.

To get this new plan rolling, the Government also passed

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the Crime and Courts Act, Section 40 of which would force

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publications who didn't sign up to the new regulator to pay legal

:13:49.:13:51.

costs in libel and privacy cases, even if they won.

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It's waiting for sign-off from the Culture Secretary.

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We've got about 50 publications that have signed up...

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This is Impress, the press regulator that's got the backing

:14:03.:14:04.

of the Royal Charter, so its members are protected

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from the penalties that would be imposed by Section 40.

:14:11.:14:13.

It's funded by the Formula One tycoon Max Mosley's

:14:14.:14:19.

I think the danger if we don't get Section 40 is that

:14:20.:14:25.

you have an incomplete Leveson project.

:14:26.:14:26.

I think it's very, very likely that within the next five or ten years

:14:27.:14:29.

there will be a scandal, there'll be a crisis in press

:14:30.:14:32.

standards, everyone will be saying to the Government,

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"Why on Earth didn't you sort things out when you had the chance?"

:14:35.:14:37.

Isn't Section 40 essentially just a big stick to beat

:14:38.:14:39.

We hear a lot about the stick part, but there's also a big juicy carrot

:14:40.:14:48.

for publishers and their journalists who are members of an

:14:49.:14:50.

They get huge new protections from libel threats,

:14:51.:14:53.

from privacy actions, which actually means they've got

:14:54.:14:55.

a lot more opportunity to run investigative stories.

:14:56.:15:04.

Impress has a big image problem - not a single national

:15:05.:15:07.

Instead, many of them are members of Ipso,

:15:08.:15:12.

the independent regulator set up and funded by the industry that

:15:13.:15:14.

doesn't seek the recognition of the Royal Charter.

:15:15.:15:21.

The male cells around 22,000 each day...

:15:22.:15:24.

There are regional titles too, who, like the Birmingham Mail,

:15:25.:15:26.

won't sign up to Impress, even if they say the costs

:15:27.:15:29.

are associated with Section 40 could put them out of business.

:15:30.:15:33.

Impress has an umbilical cord that goes directly back to Government

:15:34.:15:36.

through the recognition setup that it has.

:15:37.:15:37.

Now, we broke free of the shackles of the regulated press

:15:38.:15:40.

when the stamp duty was revealed 150 years ago.

:15:41.:15:43.

If we go back to this level of oversight, then I think

:15:44.:15:50.

we turn the clock back, 150 years of press freedom.

:15:51.:15:55.

The responses from the public have been coming thick and fast

:15:56.:15:58.

since the Government launched its consultation

:15:59.:15:59.

In fact, by the time it closed on Tuesday,

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And for that reason alone, it could take months before

:16:03.:16:07.

a decision on what happens next is taken.

:16:08.:16:11.

The Government will also be minded to listen to its own MPs,

:16:12.:16:14.

One described it to me as Draconian and hugely damaging.

:16:15.:16:20.

So, will the current Culture Secretary's thinking be

:16:21.:16:22.

I don't think the Government will repeal section 40.

:16:23.:16:31.

What I'm arguing for is not to implement it, but it will remain

:16:32.:16:34.

on the statute book and if it then became apparent that Ipso simply

:16:35.:16:39.

was failing to work, was not delivering effective

:16:40.:16:42.

regulation and the press were behaving in a way

:16:43.:16:45.

which was wholly unacceptable, as they were ten years ago,

:16:46.:16:50.

then there might be an argument at that time to think well in that

:16:51.:16:54.

case we are going to have to take further measures,

:16:55.:16:56.

The future of section 40 might not be so black and white.

:16:57.:17:01.

I'm told a compromise could be met whereby the punitive parts

:17:02.:17:04.

about legal costs are dropped, but the incentives

:17:05.:17:08.

to join a recognised regulator are beefed up.

:17:09.:17:11.

But it could yet be some time until the issue of press freedom

:17:12.:17:14.

I'm joined now by Max Mosley - he won a legal case against the News

:17:15.:17:24.

Of The World after it revealed details about his private life,

:17:25.:17:27.

and he now campaigns for more press regulation.

:17:28.:17:31.

Are welcome to the programme. Let me ask you this, how can it be right

:17:32.:17:40.

that you, who many folk think have a clear vendetta against the British

:17:41.:17:44.

press, can bankroll a government approved regulator of the press? If

:17:45.:17:49.

we hadn't done it, nobody would, section 40 would never have come

:17:50.:17:53.

into force because there would never have been a regulator. It is

:17:54.:17:57.

absolutely wrong that a family trust should have to finance something

:17:58.:18:02.

like this. It should be financed by the press or the Government. If we

:18:03.:18:07.

hadn't done it there would be no possibility of regulation. But it

:18:08.:18:08.

means we end up with a regulator financed by you, as I say

:18:09.:18:36.

many people think you have a clear vendetta against the press. Where

:18:37.:18:38.

does the money come from? From a family trust, it is family money.

:18:39.:18:40.

You have to understand that somebody had to do this. I understand that.

:18:41.:18:43.

People like to know where the money comes from, I think you said it came

:18:44.:18:46.

from Brixton Steyn at one stage. Ages ago my father had a trust there

:18:47.:18:49.

but now all my money is in the UK. We are clear about that, but this is

:18:50.:18:52.

money that was put together by your father. Yes, my father inherited it

:18:53.:18:59.

from his father and his father. The whole of Manchester once belonged to

:19:00.:19:03.

the family, that's why there is a Mosley Street. That is irrelevant

:19:04.:19:08.

because as we have given the money, I have no control. If you do the

:19:09.:19:11.

most elementary checks into the contract between my family trust,

:19:12.:19:21.

the trust but finances Impress, it is impossible for me to exert any

:19:22.:19:26.

influence. It is just the same as if it had come from the National

:19:27.:19:32.

lottery. People will find it ironic that the money has come from

:19:33.:19:37.

historically Britain's best-known fascist. No, it has come from my

:19:38.:19:45.

family, the Mosley family. This is complete drivel because we have no

:19:46.:19:50.

control. Where the money comes from doesn't matter, if it had come from

:19:51.:19:55.

the national lottery it would be exactly the same. Impress was

:19:56.:19:59.

completely independent. But it wouldn't exist without your money,

:20:00.:20:05.

wouldn't it? But that doesn't give you influence. It might exist

:20:06.:20:08.

because it was founded before I was ever in contact with them. Isn't it

:20:09.:20:15.

curious then that so many leading light show your hostile views of the

:20:16.:20:19.

press? I don't think it is because I don't know a single member of the

:20:20.:20:25.

Impress board. The chairman I have met months. The only person I know

:20:26.:20:30.

is Jonathan Hayward who you had on just now. In one recent months he

:20:31.:20:37.

tweeted 50 attacks on the Daily Mail, including some calling for an

:20:38.:20:43.

advertising boycott of the paper. He also liked a Twitter post calling me

:20:44.:20:49.

Daily Mail and neofascist rag. Are these fitting for what is meant to

:20:50.:20:54.

be impartial regulator? The person you should ask about that is the

:20:55.:20:58.

press regulatory panel and they are completely independent, they

:20:59.:21:02.

reviewed the whole thing. You have probably produced something very

:21:03.:21:07.

selective, I have no idea but I am certain that these people are

:21:08.:21:09.

absolutely trustworthy and independent. It is not just Mr

:21:10.:21:14.

Hayward, we have a tonne of things he has tweeted calling for boycotts,

:21:15.:21:18.

remember this is the man that would be the regulator of these papers.

:21:19.:21:24.

He's the chief executive, that is a separate thing. The administration,

:21:25.:21:31.

the regulator. Many leading light show your vendetta of the press. I

:21:32.:21:39.

do not have a vendetta. Let's take another one. This person is on the

:21:40.:21:55.

code committee. Have a look at this. As someone with these views fit to

:21:56.:22:02.

be involved in the regulation of the press? You said I have a vendetta

:22:03.:22:06.

against the press, I do not, I didn't say that and it is completely

:22:07.:22:11.

wrong to say I have a vendetta. What do you think of that? I don't agree,

:22:12.:22:17.

I wouldn't ban the Daily Mail, I think it's a dreadful paper but I

:22:18.:22:28.

wouldn't ban it. Another Impress code committee said I hate the Daily

:22:29.:22:35.

Mail, I couldn't agree more, others have called for a boycott. Other

:22:36.:22:40.

people can say what they want and many people may think they are right

:22:41.:22:44.

but surely these views make them unfit to be partial regulators? I

:22:45.:22:51.

have no influence over Impress therefore I cannot say anything

:22:52.:22:54.

about it. You should ask them, not me. All I have done is make it

:22:55.:23:00.

possible for Impress to exist and that was the right thing to do. I'm

:23:01.:23:06.

asking you if people with these kind of views are fit to be regulators of

:23:07.:23:11.

the press. You would have to ask about all of their views, these are

:23:12.:23:17.

some of their views. A lot of people have a downer on the Daily Mail and

:23:18.:23:24.

the Sun, it doesn't necessarily make them party pre-. Why would

:23:25.:23:28.

newspapers sign up to a regulator run by what they think is run by

:23:29.:23:34.

enemies out to ruin them. If they don't like it they should start

:23:35.:23:38.

their own section 40 regulator. They could make it so recognised, if only

:23:39.:23:44.

they would make it independent of the big newspaper barons but they

:23:45.:23:54.

won't -- they could make Ipso recognised. Is the Daily Mail

:23:55.:24:04.

fascist? It certainly was in the 1930s. Me and my father are

:24:05.:24:08.

relevant, this whole section 40 issue is about access to justice.

:24:09.:24:13.

The press don't want ordinary people who cannot afford to bring an action

:24:14.:24:17.

against the press, don't want them to have access to justice. I can

:24:18.:24:21.

understand that but I don't sympathise. What would happen to the

:24:22.:24:27.

boss of Ofcom, which regulates broadcasters, if it described

:24:28.:24:34.

Channel 4 News is a Marxist scum? If the press don't want to sign up to

:24:35.:24:43.

Impress they can create their own regulator. If you were to listen we

:24:44.:24:52.

would get a lot further. The press should make their own Levenson

:24:53.:24:57.

compliant regulator, then they would have no complaints at all. Even

:24:58.:25:02.

papers like the Guardian, the Independent, the Financial Times,

:25:03.:25:06.

they show your hostility to tabloid journalism. They have refused to be

:25:07.:25:13.

regulated by Impress. I will say it again, the press could start their

:25:14.:25:17.

own regulator, they do not have to sign... Yes, but Levenson compliant

:25:18.:25:22.

one giving access to justice so people who cannot afford an

:25:23.:25:27.

expensive legal action have a proper arbitration service. The Guardian,

:25:28.:25:30.

the Independent, the Financial Times, they don't want to do that

:25:31.:25:35.

either. That would suggest there is something fatally flawed about your

:25:36.:25:40.

approach. Even these kind of papers, the Guardian, Impress is hardly

:25:41.:25:52.

independent, the head of... Andrew, I am sorry, you are like a dog with

:25:53.:26:01.

a bone. The press could start their own regulator, then people like the

:26:02.:26:05.

Financial Times, the Guardian and so one could decide whether they wanted

:26:06.:26:08.

to join or not but what is absolutely vital is that we should

:26:09.:26:12.

have a proper arbitration service so that people who cannot afford an

:26:13.:26:15.

expensive action have somewhere to go. This business of section 40

:26:16.:26:21.

which you want to be triggered which would mean papers that didn't sign

:26:22.:26:25.

up to Impress could be sued in any case and they would have to pay

:26:26.:26:29.

potentially massive legal costs, even if they win. Yes. This is what

:26:30.:26:37.

the number of papers have said about this, if section 40 was triggered,

:26:38.:26:43.

the Guardian wouldn't even think of investigation. The Sunday Times said

:26:44.:26:50.

it would not have even started to expose Lance Armstrong. The Times

:26:51.:26:53.

journalist said he couldn't have done the Rotherham child abuse

:26:54.:26:58.

scandal. What they all come it is a full reading of section 40 because

:26:59.:27:02.

that cost shifting will only apply if, and I quote, it is just and

:27:03.:27:09.

equitable in all the circumstances. I cannot conceive of any High Court

:27:10.:27:13.

judge, for example the Lance Armstrong case or the child abuse,

:27:14.:27:18.

saying it is just as equitable in all circumstances the newspaper

:27:19.:27:23.

should pay these costs. Even the editor of index on censorship, which

:27:24.:27:29.

is hardly the Sun, said this would be oppressive and they couldn't do

:27:30.:27:33.

what they do, they would risk being sued by warlords. No because if

:27:34.:27:39.

something unfortunate, some really bad person sues them, what would

:27:40.:27:44.

happen is the judge would say it is just inequitable normal

:27:45.:27:47.

circumstances that person should pay. Section 40 is for the person

:27:48.:27:51.

that comes along and says to a big newspaper, can we go to arbitration

:27:52.:27:55.

because I cannot afford to go to court. The big newspaper says no.

:27:56.:28:00.

That leaves less than 1% of the population with any remedy if the

:28:01.:28:05.

newspapers traduce them. It cannot be right. From the Guardian to the

:28:06.:28:11.

Sun, and including Index On Censorship, all of these media

:28:12.:28:17.

outlets think you are proposing a charter for conmen, warlords, crime

:28:18.:28:19.

bosses, dodgy politicians, celebrities with a grievance against

:28:20.:28:24.

the press. I will give you the final word to address that. It is pure

:28:25.:28:33.

guff and the reason is they want to go on marking their own homework.

:28:34.:28:37.

The press don't want anyone to make sure life is fair. All I want is

:28:38.:28:41.

somebody who has got no money to be able to sue in just the way that I

:28:42.:28:46.

can. All right, thanks for being with us.

:28:47.:28:50.

The doctors' union, the British Medical Association,

:28:51.:28:51.

has said the Government is scapegoating GPs in England

:28:52.:28:54.

The Government has said GP surgeries must try harder to stay

:28:55.:28:58.

open from 8am to 8pm, or they could lose out on funding.

:28:59.:29:01.

The pressure on A services in recent weeks has been intense.

:29:02.:29:03.

It emerged this week that 65 of the 152 Health Trusts in England

:29:04.:29:06.

had issued an operational pressure alert in the first

:29:07.:29:09.

At either level three, meaning major pressures,

:29:10.:29:15.

or level four, indicating an inability to deliver

:29:16.:29:17.

On Monday, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt told the Commons

:29:18.:29:23.

that the number of people using A had increased by 9 million

:29:24.:29:26.

But that 30% of those visits were unnecessary.

:29:27.:29:34.

He said that the situation at a number of Trusts

:29:35.:29:36.

On Tuesday, the Royal College of Physicians wrote

:29:37.:29:41.

to the Prime Minister saying the health service was being

:29:42.:29:43.

paralysed by spiralling demand, and urging greater investment.

:29:44.:29:49.

On Wednesday, the Chief Executive of NHS England, Simon Stevens,

:29:50.:29:53.

told a Select Committee that NHS funding will be highly constrained.

:29:54.:29:58.

And from 2018, real-terms spending per person would fall.

:29:59.:30:02.

The Prime Minister described the Red Cross's claim that A

:30:03.:30:06.

was facing a "humanitarian crisis" as "irresponsible and overblown".

:30:07.:30:10.

And the National Audit Office issued a report that found almost half,

:30:11.:30:13.

46%, of GP surgeries closed at some point during core hours.

:30:14.:30:20.

Yesterday, Mrs May signalled her support for doctors' surgeries

:30:21.:30:24.

opening from 8am to 8pm every day of the week, in order to divert

:30:25.:30:28.

To discuss this, I'm joined now by the Conservative

:30:29.:30:35.

MP Maria Caulfield - she was an NHS nurse in a former

:30:36.:30:37.

life - and Clare Gerada, a former chair of the Royal College

:30:38.:30:40.

Welcome to you both. So, Maria Caulfield, what the Government is

:30:41.:30:50.

saying, Downing Street in effect is saying that GPs do not work hard

:30:51.:30:55.

enough and that's the reason why A was under such pressure? No, I don't

:30:56.:30:58.

think that is the message, I think that is the message that the media

:30:59.:31:02.

have taken up. That is not the expression that we want to give. I

:31:03.:31:07.

still work as a nurse, I know how hard doctors work in hospitals and

:31:08.:31:11.

GP practices. When the rose 30% of people turning up at A for neither

:31:12.:31:16.

an accident or an emergency, we do need to look at alternative. Where

:31:17.:31:21.

is the GPs' operability in this? We know from patients that if they

:31:22.:31:24.

cannot get access to GPs, they will do one of three things. They will

:31:25.:31:28.

wait two or three weeks until they can get an appointment, they will

:31:29.:31:32.

forget about the problem altogether, which is not good, we want patients

:31:33.:31:36.

to be getting investigations at early stages, or they will go to

:31:37.:31:45.

A And that is a problem. I'm not quite sure what the role that GPs

:31:46.:31:48.

play in this. What is your response in that? I think about 70% of

:31:49.:31:51.

patients that I see should not be seen by me but should still be seen

:31:52.:31:54.

by hospital consultants. If we look at it from GPs' eyes and not from

:31:55.:31:58.

hospital's eyes, because that is what it is, we might get somewhere.

:31:59.:32:02.

Tomorrow morning, every practice in England will have about 1.5 GPs

:32:03.:32:07.

shot, that's not even counting if there is traffic problems, sickness

:32:08.:32:12.

or whatever. -- GPs shot. We cannot work any harder, I cannot

:32:13.:32:15.

physically, emotionally work any harder. We are open 12 hours a day,

:32:16.:32:23.

most of us, I run practices open 365 days per year 24 hours a day. I

:32:24.:32:27.

don't understand this. It is one thing attacking me as a GP from

:32:28.:32:30.

working hard enough, but it is another thing saying that GPs as a

:32:31.:32:34.

profession and doing what they should be doing. Let me in National

:32:35.:32:40.

Audit Office has coming up with these figures showing that almost

:32:41.:32:47.

half of doctors' practices are not open during core hours at some part

:32:48.:32:50.

of the week. That's where the implication comes, that they are not

:32:51.:32:54.

working hard enough. What do you say to that? I don't recognise this. I'm

:32:55.:32:59.

not being defensive, I'm just don't recognise it. There are practices

:33:00.:33:03.

working palliative care services, practices have to close home visits

:33:04.:33:06.

if they are single-handed, some of us are working in care homes during

:33:07.:33:10.

the day. They may shot for an hour in the middle of the data will sort

:33:11.:33:17.

out some of the prescriptions and admin -- they may shot. My practice

:33:18.:33:19.

runs a number of practices across London. If we shut during our

:33:20.:33:22.

contractual hours we would have NHS England coming down on us like a

:33:23.:33:27.

tonne of bricks. Maria Caulfield, I'm struggling to understand, given

:33:28.:33:32.

the problems the NHS faces, particularly in our hospitals, what

:33:33.:33:34.

this has got to do with the solution? Obviously there are GP

:33:35.:33:38.

practices that are working, you know, over and above the hours. But

:33:39.:33:43.

there are some GP practices, we know from National Audit Office, there

:33:44.:33:48.

are particular black sports -- blackspots in the country that only

:33:49.:33:52.

offer services for three hours a week. That's causing problems if

:33:53.:33:55.

they cannot get to see a GP they will go and use A Nobody is

:33:56.:34:00.

saying that this measure would solve problems at A, it would address

:34:01.:34:04.

one small part of its top blog we shouldn't be starting this, as I

:34:05.:34:09.

keep saying, please to this from solving the problems at A We

:34:10.:34:12.

should be starting it from solving the problems of the patients in

:34:13.:34:16.

their totality, the best place they should go, not from A This really

:34:17.:34:22.

upsets me, as a GP I am there to be a proxy A doctor. I am a GP, a

:34:23.:34:27.

highly skilled doctor, looking after patients from cradle to grave across

:34:28.:34:31.

the physical, psychological and social, I am not an A doctor. I

:34:32.:34:37.

don't disagree with that, nobody is saying that GPs are not working hard

:34:38.:34:40.

enough. You just did, actually, about some of them. In some

:34:41.:34:45.

practices, what we need to see, it's not just GPs in GP surgeries, it is

:34:46.:34:50.

advanced nurse practitioners, pharmacists. It doesn't necessarily

:34:51.:34:54.

need to be all on the GPs. I think advanced nurse practitioners are in

:34:55.:34:59.

short supply. Position associate or go to hospital, -- physician

:35:00.:35:03.

associates. We have very few trainees, junior doctors in general

:35:04.:35:07.

practice, unlike hospitals, which tend to have some slack with the

:35:08.:35:10.

junior doctor community and workforce. This isn't an argument,

:35:11.:35:15.

this is about saying, let's stop looking at the National health

:35:16.:35:18.

system as a National hospital system. GPs tomorrow will see about

:35:19.:35:25.

1.3 million patients. That is a lot of thoughtful. A lot of activity

:35:26.:35:29.

with no resources. If you wanted the GPs to behave better, in your terms,

:35:30.:35:34.

when you allocated more money to GPs, part of the reforms, because

:35:35.:35:37.

that's where it went, shouldn't you have targeted it more closely to

:35:38.:35:42.

where they want to operate? That is exactly what the Prime Minister is

:35:43.:35:46.

saying, extra funding is being made available by GPs to extend hours and

:35:47.:35:50.

services. If certain GP practices cannot do that, the money will

:35:51.:35:52.

follow the patient to where they move onto. We have no doctors to do

:35:53.:35:57.

it. I was on a coach last week, the coach driver stopped in the service

:35:58.:36:00.

station for an hour, they were stopping for a rest. We cannot do

:36:01.:36:05.

it. Even if you gave us millions more money, and thankfully NHS is

:36:06.:36:12.

recognising that we need a solution through the five-day week, we

:36:13.:36:14.

haven't got the doctors to deliver this. It would take a while to get

:36:15.:36:18.

them? That's my point, that's why we need to be using all how care

:36:19.:36:21.

professional. Even if you got this right, would it make a difference to

:36:22.:36:24.

what many regard as the crisis in our hospitals? I think it would. If

:36:25.:36:28.

you look at patients, they just want to go to a service that will address

:36:29.:36:33.

the problems. In Scotland for example, pharmacists have their own

:36:34.:36:37.

patient list. Patients go and see the pharmacists first. There are

:36:38.:36:40.

lots of conditions, for example if you want anticoagulants, you don't

:36:41.:36:46.

necessarily need to see a doctor, a pharmacist can manage that and free

:36:47.:36:50.

up the doctor in other ways. The Prime Minister has said that if

:36:51.:36:54.

things do not change she is threatening to reduce funding to

:36:55.:36:57.

doctors who do not comply. Can you both agree, that is probably an

:36:58.:37:00.

empty threat, that's not going to happen? I hope it's an empty threat.

:37:01.:37:05.

We're trying our best. People like me in my profession, the seniors in

:37:06.:37:09.

our profession, are really trying to pull up morale and get people into

:37:10.:37:13.

general practice, which is a wonderful profession, absolutely

:37:14.:37:17.

wonderful place to be. But slapping us off and telling us that we are

:37:18.:37:21.

lazy really doesn't help. I really don't think anybody is doing that.

:37:22.:37:25.

We have run out of time, but I'm certain that we will be back to the

:37:26.:37:28.

subject before this winter is out. It's just gone 11:35am,

:37:29.:37:30.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:37:31.:37:33.

in Scotland, who leave us now Welcome to the Sunday

:37:34.:37:35.

Politics in the Midlands. It's the proxy war about the very

:37:36.:37:52.

future of the Labour party itself. The Midlander bidding

:37:53.:37:55.

to overthrow Len McCluskey as the Unite union leader,

:37:56.:37:57.

and deliver a body blow Valerie Vaz, Labour

:37:58.:37:59.

MP for Walsall South, is the Shadow Leader

:38:00.:38:11.

of the House of Commons. And Alex Chalk, became

:38:12.:38:13.

Conservative MP for Cheltenham at the last election,

:38:14.:38:16.

ending its 23 years And a little later, how

:38:17.:38:18.

does your Garden Village grow? In Shakespeare Country

:38:19.:38:30.

or the Black Country? But we begin of course

:38:31.:38:33.

with the prospect of our first local by-election since 2004,

:38:34.:38:36.

when Terry Davis stood down as Labour MP

:38:37.:38:40.

for Birmingham Hodge Hill to become Secretary General of

:38:41.:38:43.

the Council of Europe. And it is the lure of another kind

:38:44.:38:46.

of top job, Director of the Victoria and Albert Museum,

:38:47.:38:49.

that's persuaded Tristram Hunt to resign as Labour MP

:38:50.:38:51.

for Stoke on Trent Central. It's a very tough decision

:38:52.:39:00.

to leave Stoke-on-Trent, but being director of the Victoria

:39:01.:39:02.

and Albert Museum, the greatest museum of art

:39:03.:39:04.

and design, was my dream job. It's not something

:39:05.:39:07.

I could turn down. I have had differences

:39:08.:39:09.

with Jeremy in the past, but I'm now off to be a museum

:39:10.:39:11.

director, and impartial but I'm now off to be a museum

:39:12.:39:14.

director, an impartial director of a great museum,

:39:15.:39:16.

and so it's not the time to rehearse Tristram Hunt was speaking

:39:17.:39:20.

there on Friday. It's no great secret

:39:21.:39:22.

that he was very frustrated with life under the leadership

:39:23.:39:24.

of Jeremy Corbyn and has always been the sort of threat of deselection

:39:25.:39:36.

for him ever since we knew that Stoke-on-Trent was going

:39:37.:39:39.

to come down from three So, in effect, has he jumped

:39:40.:39:41.

before he was pushed? Well, I've always known him

:39:42.:39:45.

to be a fantastic Labour He's a brilliant defender

:39:46.:39:47.

of the ceramics industry. Obviously we are desperately

:39:48.:39:50.

disappointed he has decided to take I think it's a very difficult

:39:51.:39:52.

decision anyway for anyone to take, Obviously he hasn't discussed it

:39:53.:40:03.

with me, but we wish him Obviously an intriguing by-election

:40:04.:40:09.

because I would imagine the Conservatives who were just

:40:10.:40:12.

pipped to second place by Ukip at the general election,

:40:13.:40:15.

you and Ukip will be vying I would imagine that the Liberal

:40:16.:40:17.

Democrats will try and conjure up some anti-Brexit sentiment

:40:18.:40:25.

and Labour will be trying to build up their links in the traditional

:40:26.:40:29.

area where the referendum obviously Politics has become so fluid now

:40:30.:40:32.

with the intervention of Brexit that we will have to see how

:40:33.:40:41.

it breaks down. I think it's really bad

:40:42.:40:43.

for politics, whether you are a Conservative,

:40:44.:40:45.

Liberal or Labour, that people I think it's sad that

:40:46.:40:48.

people like him don't feel they have a future in Parliament

:40:49.:40:53.

and in the Labour Party. I just think it's not

:40:54.:41:04.

good for parliament. Stoke Central has been

:41:05.:41:10.

considered an absolute bedrock Labour core constituency,

:41:11.:41:12.

but because of this European issue, because of the defiance of virtually

:41:13.:41:14.

70% of the voters in stock, there is a wedge between

:41:15.:41:18.

you and your core. We don't take anything for granted

:41:19.:41:19.

in the Labour Party. We've got some really difficult

:41:20.:41:22.

issues facing the country, not only locally have we got the NHS

:41:23.:41:24.

is a difficult issue for the government, but very soon

:41:25.:41:28.

there will be the judgment And I think we need to focus our

:41:29.:41:30.

attention on how we can do our best for the people of the UK

:41:31.:41:38.

and stock central. for the people of the UK

:41:39.:41:46.

and Stoke Central. Plenty of time to discuss stock

:41:47.:41:49.

central before that election, It's shaping-up to be

:41:50.:41:51.

a battle over the destiny The leader of the biggest union

:41:52.:41:55.

in our part of the country is campaigning to overthrow the one

:41:56.:41:59.

man who has done more than virtually anyone else to reinforce

:42:00.:42:03.

Jeremy Corbyn's leadership. Len McCluskey, General Secretary

:42:04.:42:04.

of the Unite union, faces a bruising challenge from the union's

:42:05.:42:07.

West Midlands Secretary, Gerard Coyne, who launched

:42:08.:42:09.

his election manifesto in Birmingham's Central

:42:10.:42:12.

Bus Garage on Thursday. What's a campaign

:42:13.:42:15.

without a campaign bus? Could this man be about to overthrow

:42:16.:42:20.

one of Jeremy Corbyn's most formidable allies to become

:42:21.:42:23.

Britain's most powerful union boss? Born in West Bromwich,

:42:24.:42:26.

Gerard Coyne has worked Now he's taking-on arguably the

:42:27.:42:28.

union movement's heaviest hitter. But it was this muscular

:42:29.:42:35.

man-hug that made Len Since then, the Liverpudlian has

:42:36.:42:38.

seen-off at least one attempted coup Unite under my leadership has become

:42:39.:42:45.

a powerful progressive force Nominations for the election don't

:42:46.:42:50.

close until the end of next month, and there is already

:42:51.:43:00.

a third candidate. Ian Allinson's campaign

:43:01.:43:02.

is billed as a grass roots socialist challenge,

:43:03.:43:05.

supported by the Socialist But this has all the makings

:43:06.:43:06.

of a two-horse race. Gerard Coyne falls into a long line

:43:07.:43:13.

of so-called moderate Midlands union 30 years ago they were instrumental

:43:14.:43:16.

in the counter-offensive which led ultimately to the purge

:43:17.:43:21.

of Labour's Militant hard Left. Now, as then, nuclear disarmament

:43:22.:43:24.

is a fundamental dividing line. Mr Coyne's supporters see

:43:25.:43:31.

Mr McCuskey's support of Jeremy Corbyn's policy

:43:32.:43:35.

of unilateral nuclear disarmament as a betrayal

:43:36.:43:38.

of the union's members who work I'm not quite sure what Gerard

:43:39.:43:41.

Coyne means by that. What I want to see is the operation

:43:42.:43:51.

of the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty by the British government

:43:52.:43:54.

who would support that, so that we bring about the ultimate

:43:55.:43:56.

aim which we all want I want to see a Labour

:43:57.:43:59.

government that plays its part I want to see a Labour government

:44:00.:44:11.

that plays its part in de-escalating And I'm sure Gerard Coyne

:44:12.:44:14.

wants exactly the same. If this is all starting

:44:15.:44:17.

to sound very political, that's exactly what Gerard Coyne

:44:18.:44:19.

says it's not. He wants the union to concentrate

:44:20.:44:21.

more on its members, But when Gerard Coyne

:44:22.:44:24.

joined me here in our studios in Birmingham during the week,

:44:25.:44:27.

I suggested to him that a campaign to overthrow one of Jeremy Corbyn's

:44:28.:44:30.

most powerful allies couldn't help Well, that is one of my concerns

:44:31.:44:33.

about the direction of travel We are focused for far too long

:44:34.:44:37.

and to much on the political agenda. The world is changing dramatically

:44:38.:44:42.

and we faced challenging times for our membership,

:44:43.:44:44.

which means we need to focus again on what trade union

:44:45.:44:46.

and trade unionism is about. Is less bound to be seen

:44:47.:44:59.

as a proxy war for the future I think there are enough

:45:00.:45:02.

issues out there, enough concerns for our membership,

:45:03.:45:06.

to focus on those. That means are really,

:45:07.:45:08.

really insecure and uncertain Those other things I think

:45:09.:45:13.

we need to be addressing. In this part the country,

:45:14.:45:20.

we have quite a history of so-called Thinking back 30 years

:45:21.:45:23.

or so to the counteroffensive which led eventually

:45:24.:45:26.

to the Labour Party's purge of the hard left militant

:45:27.:45:28.

tendency and all that. Is your challenge now a little bit

:45:29.:45:30.

of history repeating itself? I don't recognise the term moderate

:45:31.:45:39.

when it's used to describe myself. I'm actually very angry at the way

:45:40.:45:42.

wealth and inequality is not being properly distributed

:45:43.:45:45.

in our society. What is more, I don't believe

:45:46.:45:46.

that the Unite union should be at the forefront

:45:47.:45:49.

of a political warfare. We should be focused

:45:50.:45:51.

on what our members need Unilateral nuclear disarmament

:45:52.:45:53.

has been the genuine dividing line in all this,

:45:54.:45:57.

especially given that Len McCluskey seems to support Jeremy Corbyn's

:45:58.:46:00.

line that a new generation of submarines can come

:46:01.:46:03.

in and which are not actually Bearing in mind that quite

:46:04.:46:06.

a few of your members work in the defence industry

:46:07.:46:12.

and defence-related industries, I'm clear we have to put

:46:13.:46:14.

our members' concerns Particularly those in

:46:15.:46:24.

the defence industry. They didn't understand last year

:46:25.:46:26.

by the having to argue to defend their jobs

:46:27.:46:28.

when they were busy I find it ridiculous to be

:46:29.:46:30.

suggesting that we would create a system of defence

:46:31.:46:35.

that is about preventing warfare. So to make pencils without

:46:36.:46:38.

putting lead in it seems I've been absolutely bowled over

:46:39.:46:45.

by the support that I've got right There have been representatives

:46:46.:46:55.

from all over the union who have been in touch and actually I think

:46:56.:47:00.

there is a sense that there is a time for change and a renewed

:47:01.:47:03.

enthusiasm about getting involved If the turnout is increased in this

:47:04.:47:08.

election, then have a very, If the turnout is increased in this

:47:09.:47:19.

election, then I have a very, The result will be known

:47:20.:47:22.

at the end of April. Everybody knows pretty much

:47:23.:47:27.

that your party is keen for Jeremy Corbyn to remain

:47:28.:47:29.

in his present post, so presumably you are rooting

:47:30.:47:31.

for a Len McCluskey to win this one? so presumably you are rooting

:47:32.:47:34.

for Len McCluskey to win this one? From my point of view,

:47:35.:47:37.

I think if you are a patriot, if you want the best

:47:38.:47:40.

for your country, you want a strong opposition in Parliament

:47:41.:47:43.

and that is certainly my position. I don't think the Jeremy Corbyn

:47:44.:47:47.

is providing that strong opposition. The last thing Gerard Coyne

:47:48.:47:50.

wants is my endorsement, I don't want to give him

:47:51.:47:52.

the kiss of death. Unions are so important

:47:53.:47:55.

to our democracy, but they've got to remain relevant,

:47:56.:47:57.

they've got to be answering the questions of today and I don't

:47:58.:47:59.

think the Len McCluskey leadership has been strong and if there can

:48:00.:48:02.

be a moderate moderate leadership, that is exactly

:48:03.:48:04.

what the union movement needs. Whatever his alleged faults,

:48:05.:48:07.

he is a formidable personality. You can be forceful in terms

:48:08.:48:09.

of delivering a message with great sort of brio,

:48:10.:48:18.

but if actually it's not garnering the support in the country,

:48:19.:48:21.

and it really isn't, then you are leading

:48:22.:48:23.

people down a blind alley. And I think that's

:48:24.:48:25.

exactly what's happened. I would describe

:48:26.:48:27.

this as a proxy war. You would understand why

:48:28.:48:29.

that is the way the argument seems to go, given that Len McCluskey

:48:30.:48:31.

was there, we saw the leadership result there, he's been absolutely

:48:32.:48:34.

one of the staunchest allies of Jeremy Corbyn,

:48:35.:48:37.

even it is said sending off the odd coup attempt

:48:38.:48:40.

at taking the leadership. We all have friends

:48:41.:48:43.

in different areas. If Len is a friend of

:48:44.:48:46.

Jeremy's, that's fine. As far as I'm concerned, it's

:48:47.:48:49.

a union matter and doesn't really You must have a preference

:48:50.:48:52.

one way or the other? It's nice to see a West

:48:53.:48:56.

Midlands candidate. It all seems to be happening

:48:57.:48:57.

in the West Midlands at the minute! That sounds like you're

:48:58.:49:01.

getting pretty close to offering your support to Gerard

:49:02.:49:03.

Coyne? And I don't really want to get

:49:04.:49:05.

involved in another election. I'm a member of the Labour Party

:49:06.:49:12.

and that's my view. There is a long history of so-called

:49:13.:49:14.

moderate trade unionists and Labour MPs who are involved in that

:49:15.:49:21.

counteroffensive Is this challenge we are

:49:22.:49:22.

seeing here is a bit I've worked with Unite members

:49:23.:49:29.

on preventing the privatisation of cancer services and that's

:49:30.:49:41.

where we meet, in terms of working with the union and working

:49:42.:49:43.

with the Labour Party. We meet to oppose really bad

:49:44.:49:51.

legislation coming through that is Briefly, it demonstrates again how

:49:52.:49:53.

deeply this issue of unilateral nuclear disarmament runs,

:49:54.:49:57.

both at street level and in union politics,

:49:58.:49:58.

Westminster politics? Whereas if you go into mainstream

:49:59.:50:00.

politics, I think there is a general consensus that we all want to see

:50:01.:50:06.

a world free of nuclear weapons, but nuclear unilateral disarmament

:50:07.:50:10.

is an odd thing for the Labour Party to be getting so hung up

:50:11.:50:13.

about and the British people are not, so it is surprising

:50:14.:50:15.

that they are. The chronic shortage of affordable

:50:16.:50:21.

housing has been piling the pressure on successive

:50:22.:50:24.

governments for decades. They've come up with ever more

:50:25.:50:26.

exotic-sounding answers. Garden cities, ecotowns

:50:27.:50:28.

and now garden villages. One of them is proposed on a site

:50:29.:50:33.

near Stratford-on-Avon. Our political reporter Rob Mayor

:50:34.:50:35.

asks if this really is a new idea, or just a re-branded,

:50:36.:50:38.

scaled-down version of an old one. Protests against plans

:50:39.:50:44.

for a new town in the Warwickshire There is nothing wrong

:50:45.:50:51.

with an eco-town, but this We don't have the jobs,

:50:52.:50:55.

we don't have the facilities. The idea for a 6,000 home ecotown

:50:56.:50:59.

near Long Marston was an idea championed by Gordon Brown -

:51:00.:51:02.

but after strong local opposition it was dropped when the coalition

:51:03.:51:05.

government came to power. Now, just down the road

:51:06.:51:11.

at Long Marston Airfield the government is backing plans

:51:12.:51:13.

for a new garden village Some of those who protested

:51:14.:51:16.

all those years ago say For a decade, we fought

:51:17.:51:23.

the eco-town at the Army camp because people were worried

:51:24.:51:31.

about the infrastructure, the natural environment and the area

:51:32.:51:33.

of outstanding natural beauty. What I want to see is the government

:51:34.:51:40.

putting their hands in their pocket and bringing out the money

:51:41.:51:44.

that is required for So, it's a scaled down

:51:45.:51:46.

version of an old idea, But this time applied

:51:47.:51:49.

for by Stratford-upon-Avon District Council and not

:51:50.:51:54.

imposed by the government. I hope Stratford can jolly

:51:55.:51:56.

well sort out the roads, because that will be

:51:57.:51:59.

the biggest problem. So instead of new towns

:52:00.:52:01.

in the countryside, might it be These houses in Walsall are part

:52:02.:52:14.

of the Black Country garden city project,

:52:15.:52:19.

not a garden city in the traditional sense, but a mixture of hundreds

:52:20.:52:21.

of different site in urban areas being developed with garden

:52:22.:52:25.

city principles in mind. The Black Country Garden City missed

:52:26.:52:29.

out on any cash in the Government's recent Garden Town announcement,

:52:30.:52:33.

but it's backers say it makes sense to build where the infrastructure

:52:34.:52:37.

is already in place. We have a lot of land that

:52:38.:52:42.

at the moment is underutilised. There is a significant

:52:43.:52:46.

amount of housing needs in the Black Country,

:52:47.:52:48.

so whilst thinking about developing the land, a set of principles have

:52:49.:52:51.

been designed to look at this in terms of a garden city

:52:52.:52:54.

on the basis of infield development. The government has promised

:52:55.:52:59.

?6 million over the next two years, to help deliver new garden

:53:00.:53:02.

towns and villages. Charities say promises of good

:53:03.:53:06.

roaads and housing must be kept. Garden city principles

:53:07.:53:11.

produce fantastic places, but they involve, for example,

:53:12.:53:16.

harnessing a bit of development value for people to reinvest

:53:17.:53:19.

in communities, lots of great infrastructure, proper schools,

:53:20.:53:22.

houses, green space. With estimates suggesting the UK

:53:23.:53:24.

needs to build another 220,000 homes a year just to keep up with demand,

:53:25.:53:29.

it's a mountain to climb. I'm guessing that as a Walsall MP

:53:30.:53:35.

you would have quite liked the government backing

:53:36.:53:38.

for the Black Country proposal and the money that

:53:39.:53:41.

would have come with it? The number of affordable housing

:53:42.:53:43.

is come down from 66,000 in 2014, So there is a real need

:53:44.:53:52.

to build affordable houses. Accord group have actually built

:53:53.:54:06.

eco-houses in my constituency. And they also had the factory

:54:07.:54:09.

to build the houses before they placed them, so I know

:54:10.:54:12.

they have a good track record. They could have done a wonderful job

:54:13.:54:15.

if we hadn't been turned down. Given the concerns we heard there

:54:16.:54:18.

about the infrastructure, the roads and so on in the Warwickshire

:54:19.:54:20.

example, you can see that by comparison Walsall looks

:54:21.:54:23.

like having a pretty strong case? Obviously I can't comment

:54:24.:54:26.

on that specific example. I think there is a real shift taking

:54:27.:54:31.

place in the country. People recognise we have

:54:32.:54:34.

got to build homes. People are not so much

:54:35.:54:37.

seeing not in my backyard, they are saying we will look at that

:54:38.:54:39.

but there has to be the infrastructure,

:54:40.:54:42.

the schools, hospitals, roads. The green belt issue is raging

:54:43.:54:44.

around Sutton Coldfield Real pressure on the

:54:45.:54:46.

Communities Secretary. You don't need to build on green

:54:47.:54:52.

belt land and certainly I am opposed And there's plenty

:54:53.:54:55.

of Brownfield land. There's plenty of houses

:54:56.:55:01.

they could be done up and brought As Accord said in your

:55:02.:55:04.

piece, they said there Of course you have to have infill

:55:05.:55:07.

as well, which is by the government say they want planning permission

:55:08.:55:18.

on 90% of brownfield sites by 2020, but there will have to be some tough

:55:19.:55:21.

decisions made elsewhere. We have got to deliver

:55:22.:55:24.

a 1 million homes by 2020. Tough decisions have got to be made,

:55:25.:55:27.

but the point want to make is that people are in certain parts

:55:28.:55:31.

of the country receptive to that, so long as you get

:55:32.:55:33.

the infrastructure right. They have got to be schools,

:55:34.:55:36.

doctors surgeries, roads. The differences in this case it has

:55:37.:55:38.

not been imposed, as eco-towns were, I think the key thing is to always

:55:39.:55:44.

talk to local people The government did have a garden

:55:45.:55:48.

city in Ebbsfleet and only 500 They've made 32 announcements,

:55:49.:55:52.

so that means 16 houses for every press release,

:55:53.:55:55.

so we do need to get a move on. For now, thank you both

:55:56.:55:58.

very much indeed. So what other political developments

:55:59.:56:03.

have been making the news this week? Our round-up in 60 seconds

:56:04.:56:09.

is brought to us today by Amy Cole. The Freedom of City has been

:56:10.:56:17.

posthumously awarded to 21 victims of the Birmingham pub bombings

:56:18.:56:21.

after a unanimous vote West Midlands Labour MEP Neena Gill

:56:22.:56:26.

has been awarded a CBE A group of blacked-up Morris men

:56:27.:56:32.

from Alvechurch in Worcestershire were jeered during a display

:56:33.:56:35.

in Birmingham's Bullring. One Morris dancing MP dismissed

:56:36.:56:39.

accusations of racism. Look, we shouldn't be

:56:40.:56:42.

racist in any way. But, come on, we have

:56:43.:56:46.

got to be realistic. England is England and we

:56:47.:56:52.

should allow for that. Inspectors say levels of violence

:56:53.:56:55.

at Hewell Prison near Redditch are far too high after an increase

:56:56.:56:57.

in fights, assaults on staff And the Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt

:56:58.:57:00.

told the Commons that three quarters of all recent hospital trolley waits

:57:01.:57:13.

happened in just two trusts - This is the issue of course that has

:57:14.:57:16.

been absolutely raging, particularly since the turn

:57:17.:57:30.

of the year. If this isn't a midwinter crisis

:57:31.:57:32.

in our hospitals, what on earth is? What we would both want to say

:57:33.:57:35.

is we are enormously grateful to those people working

:57:36.:57:39.

in really tough circumstances. Government ministers keep

:57:40.:57:41.

repeating the thanks, Maybe we should have Tories seeing

:57:42.:57:42.

the unsayable and talk about taxes going up and helping

:57:43.:57:46.

the embattled health service? There are deep issues,

:57:47.:57:51.

not least that in a country of 66 million there are 1 million

:57:52.:57:54.

more people aged over 65 There are over 300,000

:57:55.:58:00.

people aged over 80. Even though there are historic

:58:01.:58:03.

levels of funding going into the NHS, demand

:58:04.:58:05.

is really rising. That is what we have

:58:06.:58:07.

to grapple with as a society. That's why the sustainability

:58:08.:58:09.

and transformation plans are so important, as we re-calibrate

:58:10.:58:11.

the NHS to cope with Won't they cut hospital beds

:58:12.:58:14.

and the net effect will be I certainly wouldn't

:58:15.:58:17.

be in favour of that What we have to have is an NHS

:58:18.:58:21.

which reflects modern life. That is frankly am older and in some

:58:22.:58:26.

cases sicker population. You have been on the Health

:58:27.:58:29.

Select Committee in your We have been saying this

:58:30.:58:31.

for the last five years. We had the health and social care

:58:32.:58:36.

act which was poor we explain We had the health and social care

:58:37.:58:43.

act which was paused. We explain that we didn't need a top

:58:44.:58:45.

town reorganisation of ?3 billion. It's been ?4.6 billion

:58:46.:58:48.

cut in social care. What do the accident

:58:49.:58:50.

and emergency doctors need? They want more staff, more funding

:58:51.:58:52.

and they want a flow of patients. And they're not getting that

:58:53.:58:56.

because people can't go On this issue of more doctors,

:58:57.:58:59.

you have to note that since 2010, And two and a half thousand more

:59:00.:59:04.

people visiting A every day. This isn't about how much money is

:59:05.:59:21.

being put in. Jeremy Hunt has picked a fight with the gym in doctors.

:59:22.:59:30.

They are pre-consultants. He has cut nurses bursaries. Squeeze local

:59:31.:59:39.

authorities, that is a key element of why people are going to A Do

:59:40.:59:50.

not need a more long-term approach? Absolutely. So many reports. Stephen

:59:51.:59:55.

Dorrell cheered the Health Select Committee. Reports have been coming

:59:56.:00:04.

out of our ears since 2010. I agree. I think a cross-party approach

:00:05.:00:11.

Bromey can battle some of these issues is needed. It is all they

:00:12.:00:13.

are. The blueprint is there. My thanks to Valerie

:00:14.:00:17.

Vaz and Alex Chalk. Finally from me, we'll have

:00:18.:00:19.

more on those challenges facing our health services

:00:20.:00:21.

in a special programme Inside Out will ask if the different

:00:22.:00:23.

ways in which they are now being rationed from one place

:00:24.:00:27.

to another, means it's questionable

:00:28.:00:28.

whether the NHS really is still a truly National

:00:29.:00:30.

Health Service, or not. Inside Out is here on BBC One

:00:31.:00:32.

at 7:30pm tomorrow evening. This though is where

:00:33.:00:35.

we rejoin Andrew Neil. Now, if anyone thought Donald Trump

:00:36.:00:40.

would tone things down after the American election

:00:41.:00:48.

campaign, they may have The period where he has been

:00:49.:00:58.

President-elect will make them think again. The inauguration is coming up

:00:59.:01:03.

on Friday. Never has the forthcoming

:01:04.:01:04.

inauguration of a president been In a moment, we'll talk

:01:05.:01:06.

to a man who knows Mr Trump But first, let's have a look

:01:07.:01:10.

at the press conference Mr Trump gave on Wednesday,

:01:11.:01:13.

in which he took the opportunity to rubbish reports that Russia has

:01:14.:01:16.

obtained compromising information You are attacking our

:01:17.:01:18.

news organisation. Can you give us a chance,

:01:19.:01:34.

you are attacking our news organisation, can you give us

:01:35.:01:39.

a chance to ask a question, sir? As far as Buzzfeed,

:01:40.:01:42.

which is a failing pile of garbage, writing it, I think they're

:01:43.:01:48.

going to suffer the consequences. Does anyone really

:01:49.:01:52.

believe that story? I'm also very much of

:01:53.:01:55.

a germaphobe, by the way. If Putin likes Donald Trump,

:01:56.:01:58.

guess what, folks, that's called The only ones that care about my tax

:01:59.:02:00.

returns are the reporters, OK? Do you not think the American

:02:01.:02:08.

public is concerned? The Wiggo, Donald Trump at his first

:02:09.:02:22.

last conference. The Can will he change as President? Because he

:02:23.:02:25.

hasn't changed in the run-up to being inaugurated? I don't think he

:02:26.:02:30.

will commit he doesn't see any point in changing. Why would he change

:02:31.:02:33.

from the personality that just one, as he just said, I just one. All of

:02:34.:02:38.

the bleeding-heart liberals can wail and brush their teeth and say how

:02:39.:02:40.

ghastly that all this, Hillary should have won and so on, but he

:02:41.:02:45.

has got an incredible mandate. Remember, Trump has the House

:02:46.:02:48.

committee has the Senate, he will have the Supreme Court. He has

:02:49.:02:52.

incredible power right now. He doesn't have to listen to anybody. I

:02:53.:02:56.

spoke to him a couple of weeks ago specifically about Twitter, I asked

:02:57.:02:59.

him what the impact was of Twitter. He said, I have 60 million people

:03:00.:03:05.

following me on Twitter. I was able to bypass mainstream media, bypass

:03:06.:03:09.

all modern political convention and talk directly to potential voters.

:03:10.:03:13.

Secondly, I can turn on the TV in the morning, I can see a rival

:03:14.:03:17.

getting all of the airtime, and I can fire off a tweet, for free, as a

:03:18.:03:22.

marketing man he loves that, and, boom, I'm on the news agenda again.

:03:23.:03:26.

He was able to use that magnificently. Twitter to him didn't

:03:27.:03:29.

cost him a dollar. He is going to carry on tweeting in the last six

:03:30.:03:40.

weeks, he was not sleeping. Trump has never had an alcoholic drink a

:03:41.:03:45.

cigarette or a drug. He is a fit by the 70, he has incredible energy and

:03:46.:03:49.

he is incredibly competitive. At his heart, he is a businessman. If you

:03:50.:03:53.

look at him as a political ideologue, you completely missed the

:03:54.:03:58.

point of trouble. Don't take what he says literally, look upon it as a

:03:59.:04:01.

negotiating point that he started from, and try to do business with

:04:02.:04:05.

him as a business person would, and you may be presently surprised so

:04:06.:04:09.

pleasantly surprised. He treats the press and the media entirely

:04:10.:04:14.

differently to any other politician or main politician in that normally

:04:15.:04:21.

the politicians try to get the media off a particular subject, or they

:04:22.:04:25.

try to conciliate with the media. He just comes and punches the media in

:04:26.:04:28.

the nose when he doesn't like them. This could catch on, you know! You

:04:29.:04:35.

are absolutely right, for a start, nobody could accuse him of letting

:04:36.:04:41.

that victory go to his head. You know, he won't say, I will now be

:04:42.:04:44.

this lofty president. He's exactly the same as he was before. What is

:04:45.:04:48.

fascinating is his Laois and ship with the media. I haven't met, and

:04:49.:04:52.

I'm sure you haven't, met a party leader who is obsessed with the

:04:53.:04:55.

media. But they pretend not to be. You know, they state, oh, somebody

:04:56.:05:02.

told me about a column, I didn't read it. He is utterly transparent

:05:03.:05:09.

in his obsession with the media, he doesn't pretend. How that plays out,

:05:10.:05:13.

who knows? It's a completely different dynamic than anyone has

:05:14.:05:17.

seen by. Like he is the issue, he has appointed an unusual Cabinet,

:05:18.:05:22.

that you could criticise in many ways. Nearly all of them are

:05:23.:05:25.

independent people in their own right. A lot of them are wealthy,

:05:26.:05:29.

too. They have their own views. They might not like what he tweaked at

:05:30.:05:33.

3am, and he does have to deal with his Cabinet now. Mad dog matters,

:05:34.:05:38.

now the Defence Secretary, he might not like what's said about China at

:05:39.:05:44.

three in morning - general matters. This is what gets very conjugated.

:05:45.:05:48.

We cannot imagine here in our political system any kind of

:05:49.:05:51.

appointments like this. Using the wouldn't have a line-up of

:05:52.:05:54.

billionaires of the kind of background that he has chosen -- you

:05:55.:05:57.

simply wouldn't have. But that won't stop him saying and reading what he

:05:58.:06:02.

thinks. Maybe it will cause him some internal issues when the following

:06:03.:06:04.

day he has the square rigged with whatever they think. But he's going

:06:05.:06:09.

to press ahead. Are we any clearer in terms of policy. I know policy

:06:10.:06:17.

hasn't featured hugely in this campaign of 2016. Do we have any

:06:18.:06:20.

really clear idea what Mr Trump is hoping to achieve? He has had some

:06:21.:06:27.

consistent theme going back over 25 years. One is a deep scepticism

:06:28.:06:30.

about international trade and the kind of deals that America has been

:06:31.:06:34.

doing over that period. It has been so consistent that is has been hard

:06:35.:06:37.

to spin as something that you say during the course of a campaign of

:06:38.:06:41.

something to get elected. Ultimately, Piers is correct, he

:06:42.:06:45.

won't change. When he won the election committee gave a relatively

:06:46.:06:48.

magnanimous beach. I thought his ego had been sated and he had got what

:06:49.:06:53.

he wanted. He will end up governing as is likely eccentric New York

:06:54.:06:56.

liberal and everything will be fine. In the recent weeks it has come to

:06:57.:07:00.

my attention that that might not be entirely true!

:07:01.:07:03.

LAUGHTER It is a real test of the American

:07:04.:07:07.

system, the Texan bouncers, the foreign policy establishment which

:07:08.:07:12.

is about to have the orthodoxies disrupted -- the checks and

:07:13.:07:16.

balances. I think he has completely ripped up the American political

:07:17.:07:20.

system. Washington as we know it is dead. From his garage do things his

:07:21.:07:23.

way, he doesn't care, frankly, what any of us thinks -- Trump is going

:07:24.:07:29.

to do things his way. If he can deliver for the people who voted for

:07:30.:07:35.

him who fault this disenfranchised, -- who voted for him who felt this

:07:36.:07:41.

disenfranchised. They voted accordingly. They want to see jobs

:07:42.:07:45.

and the economy in good shape, they want to feel secure. They want to

:07:46.:07:49.

feel that immigration has been tightened. If Trump can deliver on

:07:50.:07:54.

those main theme for the rust belt communities of America, I'm telling

:07:55.:07:57.

you, he will go down as a very successful president. All of the

:07:58.:08:00.

offensive rhetoric and the argy-bargy with CNN and whatever it

:08:01.:08:04.

may be will be completely irrelevant. Let me finish with a

:08:05.:08:12.

parochial question. Is it fair to say quite well disposed to this

:08:13.:08:14.

country? And that he would like, that he's up for a speedy

:08:15.:08:16.

free-trade, bilateral free-trade you'll? Think we have to be sensible

:08:17.:08:22.

as the country. Come Friday, he is the president of the United States,

:08:23.:08:27.

the most powerful man and well. He said to me that he feels half

:08:28.:08:31.

British, his mum was born and raised in Scotland until the age of 18, he

:08:32.:08:34.

loves British, his mother used to love watching the Queen, he feels

:08:35.:08:38.

very, you know, I would roll out the red carpet for Trump, let him eat

:08:39.:08:43.

Her Majesty. The crucial point for us as a country is coming -- let him

:08:44.:08:49.

me to Her Majesty. If we can do a speedy deal within an 18 month

:08:50.:08:53.

period, it really sends a message that well but we are back in the

:08:54.:08:57.

game, that is a hugely beneficial thing for this country. Well, a man

:08:58.:09:01.

whose advisers were indicating that maybe he should learn a few things

:09:02.:09:07.

from Donald Trump was Jeremy Corbyn. Yes, MBE. Mr Corbyn appeared on the

:09:08.:09:11.

Andrew Marr Show this morning. -- yes, indeed.

:09:12.:09:14.

If you don't win Copeland, and if you don't win

:09:15.:09:17.

Stoke-on-Trent Central, you're toast, aren't you?

:09:18.:09:18.

Our party is going to fight very hard in those elections,

:09:19.:09:23.

as we are in the local elections, to put those policies out there.

:09:24.:09:26.

It's an opportunity to challenge the Government on the NHS.

:09:27.:09:28.

It's an opportunity to challenge them on the chaos of Brexit.

:09:29.:09:31.

It's an opportunity to challenge them on the housing shortage.

:09:32.:09:33.

It's an opportunity to challenge them on zero-hours contracts.

:09:34.:09:35.

Is there ever a moment that you look in the mirror and think,

:09:36.:09:40.

you know what, I've done my best, but this might not be for me?

:09:41.:09:44.

I look in the mirror every day and I think,

:09:45.:09:46.

let's go out there and try and create a society where there

:09:47.:09:49.

are opportunities for all, where there aren't these terrible

:09:50.:09:51.

levels of poverty, where there isn't homelessness,

:09:52.:09:53.

where there are houses for all, and where young people aren't

:09:54.:09:55.

frightened of going to university because of the debts

:09:56.:09:58.

they are going to end up with at the end of their course.

:09:59.:10:01.

Mr Corbyn earlier this morning. Steve, would it be fair to say that

:10:02.:10:07.

the mainstream of the Labour Party has now come to the conclusion that

:10:08.:10:11.

they just have to let Mr Corbyn get on with it, that they are not going

:10:12.:10:14.

to try and influence what he does. They will continue to try and have

:10:15.:10:19.

their own views, but it's his show, it's up to him, if it's a mess, he

:10:20.:10:23.

has to live with it and we'll have clean hands? For now, yes. I think

:10:24.:10:27.

they made a mistake when he was first elected to start in some cases

:10:28.:10:30.

tweeting within seconds that it was going to be a disaster, this was

:10:31.:10:35.

Labour MPs. They made a complete mess of that attempted coup in the

:10:36.:10:38.

summer, which strengthened his position. And he did, it gave Corbyn

:10:39.:10:44.

the space with total legitimacy to say that part of the problem is,

:10:45.:10:48.

we're having this public Civil War. In keeping quiet, that disappeared

:10:49.:10:54.

as part of the explanation for why Labour and low in the polls. I think

:10:55.:10:59.

they are partly doing that. But they are also struggling, the so-called

:11:00.:11:04.

mainstream Labour MPs, to decide what the distinctive agenda is. It's

:11:05.:11:08.

one of the many differences with the 80s, where you had a group of people

:11:09.:11:12.

sure of what they believed in, they left to form the SDP. What's

:11:13.:11:16.

happening now is that they are leaving politics altogether. That is

:11:17.:11:20.

a crisis of social Democrats all across Europe, including the French

:11:21.:11:24.

Socialists, as we will find out later in the spring. Let Corbyn

:11:25.:11:32.

because then, that's the strategy. There is a weary and sometimes

:11:33.:11:33.

literal resignation from the moderates in the Labour Party. If

:11:34.:11:36.

you talk to them, they are no longer angry, they have always run out of

:11:37.:11:39.

steam to be angry about what's going on. They are just sort of tired and

:11:40.:11:42.

feel that they've just got to see this through now. I think the

:11:43.:11:46.

by-elections will be interesting. When Andrew Marr said, you're toast,

:11:47.:11:50.

and you? I thought, he's never posed! That was right. A quick

:11:51.:11:55.

thought from view? One thing Corbyn has in common with Trump is immunity

:11:56.:12:00.

to bad news. I think he can lose Copeland and lose Stoke, and as long

:12:01.:12:08.

as it is not a sequence of resignations and by-elections

:12:09.:12:10.

afterwards, with maybe a dozen or 20 Labour MPs going, he can still enjoy

:12:11.:12:13.

what. It may be more trouble if Labour loses the United trade union

:12:14.:12:19.

elections. We are in a period of incredible unpredictability

:12:20.:12:21.

generally in global politics. If you look at the way the next year plays

:12:22.:12:26.

out, if for example brags it was a disaster and it starts to unravel

:12:27.:12:29.

very quickly, Theresa May is attached to that, clearly label

:12:30.:12:32.

would have a great opportunity potentially disease that higher

:12:33.:12:36.

ground, and when Eddie the Tories -- Labour would have an opportunity. Is

:12:37.:12:41.

Corbyn the right guy? We interviewed him, what struck me was that he

:12:42.:12:47.

talked about being from, a laughable comparison, but when it is really

:12:48.:12:50.

laughable is this - Hillary Clinton, what were the things she stood for,

:12:51.:12:55.

nobody really knew? What does Trump stand for? Everybody knew. Corbyn

:12:56.:12:59.

has the work-out four or five messages and bang, bang, bang. He

:13:00.:13:03.

could still be in business. Thank you for being with us.

:13:04.:13:05.

I'll be back at the same time next weekend.

:13:06.:13:08.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:09.:13:10.

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