10/02/2013 Sunday Politics West

In the West, who gets to choose those who'll hold the safest seats

in Parliament? Some say picking the lucky candidates should be done by

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2463 seconds

ordinary folk - not just the party Welcome to the programme here in

the West. Coming up: The MPs with a job for life and without any

That's coming up, but firstly, to our political class room, where

some of us struggled to get an O- level. John Glenn, and the Labour

Mark Dempsey then 0 Swindon. Welcome to U-boat. -- welcome to

you both. Michael Gove made a huge U-turn this week. Do you ever think,

what is going on? I think Michael Gove is an extremely brilliant man

and Education Secretary. I think the U-turn is the gloss the media

want to put on it. He consulted on it, there been tweaks, and what

he's trying to do is improve the overall reputation and integrity of

the qualifications. What he did is trashed the GCSE, and now he is

saying, actually, it's fine. think you're making mischief with

those words. He said it wasn't fit for purpose. So there are

significant reforms we will be taking. These things are difficult

to get right. It is right that he consulted teachers, and there are

some changes to what he proposed. The key thing is the outcome -

Improved qualifications that prospective employers can rely on.

So you don't think he made a mess? It would always be ideal if you

could get every detail right of every policy first time, but that

is not the reality. Let's bring in labour. I'm sure you won't make

political capital out of this! He changed his mind, what is wrong

with that? I been it was an embarrassing climbdown. He showed

have listened to the teachers, the parents. One problem is he's stuck

in a bit of a 1920s view of education. Actually, I think you

should really be focused on building education systems for the

20 twenties. -- 2020s. That is where we should be aiming our

education system. Academic standards were quite high in the

1920s, actually! Yes, but we need to build an economy for the future.

Now, few of us feel completely safe in these days of redundancies, but

for some MPs, a job for life is just round the corner. If they get

elected to fight one of the West's safe seats, they are quids in. All

they have to come -- all they have to do is convince a handful of

activists that they are the right person for the job. But some people

think that should change. This is Bristol South, one of the

safest seats in the West Country. Even in Labour's bad defeat in 2010,

they won it comfortably. The MP is departing at the next general

election and the real contest to six-seater won't be in 2015. It

will take place in the next few weeks, with the choice being made

by fewer than 200 people. These are some of them. A South

Bristol pub was the venue for this Labour gathering. Any supporter

could attend and vote. However, this was not to choose a candidate,

it was to pick policies the party should adopt. The idea of having

open primaries with all local voters able to take part has won

influential backing in labour. Frank Field especially wants them

in safe seats. Once the system is under way quickly, the electorate

would realise they were offering a big say in the real choice, not in

the circus, biting and turning up in a contest that they know before

they set out from home who the winner will be. The Conservatives

sometimes hold open primaries. In 2010, all voters in the safe seat

of Salisbury were invited to the meeting which elected John Glenn.

The party went even further in Totnes, Devon. Constituents didn't

have to go to a selection meeting. There was a postal vote, and a

quarter of electors took part. Political scientist Elizabeth Evans

says research suggests it can be good for democracy a. Given the

less than 1% of the population is a member of a political party, that

is very few people involved in the future politicians who will be

sitting in Westminster. So having a primary way you allowing more

people to hear the candidate will be, you engage more people in that

prose and only be a good thing, given people in the UK are not

engaging with formal political parties in the way they used to.

Backings are Bristol, the votes had been passed. Labour members will

soon meet again to pick a candidate. Ordinary voters and our cameras

won't be allowed in. Joining as his mate and Hartley, a Liberal

Democrat councillor in Bath and deputy leader of the cancer that

the stop -- deputy leader of the council there. Do you share the

concern that this method is unhealthy? I think the primaries

other way forward. I was selected in an open primary in Salisbury.

There were 400 people there, over half those people were not party

members. Where seat has been in one party's hands for one time, there

is less chance there will be movement at the general election,

it is important there will be that selection. Do you think you would

not have got selected if you did not have an open primary? That is

not for me to say. But over half the people and that Rome were not

party members. Of course, when you are an MP, you have to act everyone

in the constituency, so it is only right that people who don't

necessarily support you have a say in who the candidates is likely to

be. It is also about the outcome as well as the process. We need to put

the represent back into representative. People saw I was

collected -- connected to the community, and I think that's what

they wanted. But the Conservatives back in 1950 had 3 million members.

Labour had one million. Now, the Conservatives are down to 150,000,

tops. There are only a few activists left in party politics,

so it does mean you're not really representing anybody apart from

then. I think you're right and you see people starting a career in

private school, going on to university, to work at Conservatory

Central Office, and then into Parliament without any real

experience. That leads to MPs who are out of touch and distant from

the community. The Lib Dems don't have many say seats, do they? --

safe seats. I think power needs to be in their hands of as many people

as possible. If there are marginal seats, people can decide to

recurrent democratic process, but this issue is more about tackling

it the safest seats that the two larger parties have. At least the

Lib Dems and the Conservatives have embraced this idea. Labour have not.

I think Labour have always been at the forefront of modernising

Parliament. We're the first black MP, the first openly gay MP. 33% of

our MPs are women, only 15% of the Conservatives are. I think there

are a selection processes have changed, so anybody can put...

do the trade unions have such a big role? They don't. They do -

massively. They shouldn't have a monopoly on the selection of Labour

candidates. The Lib Dems and the Conservatives in the coalition

document said they would pay the 200 primaries in safe seats, and

that promise has been dropped quietly. Why is that? It cost

�40,000 per seat to do a postal priory, and I suspect some of the

cost put pressure on that. The next best thing is to have an open

primary way you are not a member of the political party, as happened in

Salisbury. That has to be better than having a closed-shop

arrangement they you see with Labour. We must move on. More of

you contacted your MP about this issue than anything else recently -

gay marriage. The vote went through and exposed deep divisions within

society and the Conservative Party. But will the bill to deliver the

quality it promises? And at what price for the Conservatives?

What I would say from colleagues on -- to colleagues on all sides who

are opposing what we're trying to achieve today it is please have

some empathy for what your fellow citizens have been through.

Equality is not something that can be delivered partially. It is

absolute. An impassioned plea from Bristol's first openly gay MP, on

the day the personal became political. But will gay marriage

really be on an equal footing? Generally, I am pleased about it.

At his offices in Bristol, as he is working on the next issue of Viz

magazine. He is in a civil partnership, and welcomes the bill,

with one cabbie at. I'm a bit concerned with the legislation as

it stands. They still haven't dealt with this issue of adultery. At the

moment, I still couldn't see my partner if he were to have an

affair with someone else. There is not for equality in that sense.

Adultery is grounds for divorce if it is committed with someone of the

opposite sex. So not much use the game married couples. One MP who

abstained this week shed these concerns. -- not much use for gay

married couples. I am bigger concerns for the way the Bill was

laid out. There are issues with it, I'm not sure that it will be equal.

They inevitably will be important distinctions between same-sex and

opposite sex marriages. So, could some married couples be more equal

than others? Some politicians want to keep things as they are to avoid

confusion and changing the nature of marriage. This ludicrous

situation underscores why otherwise provision of civil partnerships of

nearly a decade ago was made. To ensure that same-sex couples can

make an equally valid commitment in law, receiving all the legal rights

and privileges conferred by marriage, but it would have to

remain different in name. Equality, then - just under different labels.

What went equal is the political fall-out. The Prime Minister faces

dissension on his doorstep and even resignations. I don't speak but the

chairman, I know many keel and very angered, as I do, about this issue.

Chiefly because, and sat in only, because of the impact its having on

our volunteers and members. -- and saddeningly. In the end, the in

quality -- the equality enshrined in this Bill may be partial, but

enough for some. And too much of others now divorced from a party

they helped to elect. My guests are here to discuss that. -- Nathan

Hartley is still here with us. What do you think of this development?

was delighted. We need to it allow gay people to get married. You are

a gay man? No, I am not. I am a heterosexual Christian but a strong

believer in equal rights for all people, which is part of the

inspiration behind setting up this group. John, would you like to

explain to gay people watching this programme why they shouldn't have

the same rights as you? I believe they do have the same rights, that

is why Parliament brought in the civil rights partnership. There's

never been a suggestion that there on UN -- that there are not equal

rights under law. If there is no difference, why bother opposing it,

if it is just a word? And I think it is important that this is seen

as being about protecting marriage. Marriage is distinct, it involves a

certain things. You will not actually have equality of treatment

under this proposed legislation. Adultery will not apply in the same

way. If you remove the notion of fidelity in marriage, then it

undermines marriage. And you think the Western world can't find a way

around that? Well, it seems Parliament has passed the

legislation, and you have to accept that. But my contention is the

label of marriage is diminished, because it when in the same thing

that it does at the moment. -- it won't mean. It's not just about

love and commitment. Belgium has had equal same-sex marriage the 10

years and there's been no attack on heterosexual marriages. Now this

battle has been one, and it looks almost certain it will be passed,

how long before you campaign for gay marriages to take place in the

Church of England? Not long at all. We are frustrated the Church of

England have a get-out clause that it will be illegal. I know a number

of ministers who are pro gay marriage and their various

frustrated -- they are very frustrated. But this was one of the

concessions, that because will absolutely not be made to marry gay

people. -- that vicars. A lot of parishes in rural areas have a lot

of control over what they do. They can set their own church policy in

terms of whether they marry divorcees or not. So I think they

should also be entitled to make the decision as to whether they allowed

to people of the same sex to get married in their churches.

Conservatives are leading social change in this country! I think

they have shown they are still deeply divided. This is exactly the

right thing to do. Why didn't you bring it in before 2010? Well, you

bought in civil partnerships. Your party when it was last in

government had section 28, which was an utterly repugnant

homophobic... Don't bring up ancient history. It's not that long

ago! Your party is split down the scenes over this. -- seams. It is

absolutely the right thing to do, everybody should be able to

celebrate love. I got married last year - the best day of my life, and

everybody should be able to celebrate their love through

marriage. But people have a right not to approve of it without being

they are marginalised and victimised as well, do you think?

respect the views of people with fake, but they should not enable

discrimination. -- people with faith, but faith should not enable

discrimination. Do you think you're on the wrong side of mystery? In 10

years, perhaps people will look back and say, it is like you voted

the slavery. That is a very unfair comparison. His time to step into

the 21st century. There are lots of questions that have not been

answered. Time now to take a regular look at the rest of the

The commission of their Avon and Somerset Police continues her bumpy

ride in office. A police and crime a panel almost derailed her plans

to freeze what we pay the police from the council tax pot. The

commissioner campaigned to freeze the tax, but hinted she would have

to raise it in future years. Millions of pounds are on their way

to improve flood defences. Hundreds of homes across the rage and were

affected by torrential rain and late last year. -- across the

region. Anti-war campaign is prevented from

joining a campaign in Gloucestershire against the Iraq

war whenever legal battle against police. They were on coaches

stopped from reaching the protest in 2003.

And a former guest on this show, Amanda Ramsey, who could fight

Bristol South a Labour next election settled a hacking case

One story which wasn't there but dominated the national agenda is

what went on amid Staffordshire Hospital, fortunately not a

hospital in our region. But do you fear we may have a similar story

somewhere here in the West Country? A I desperately hope not. It shows

since tragic -- some tragic cases. Despite all the Investment we put

in as a Labour government, you need the management in place in order to

make sure hospital functions properly. I be Labour and deserve

some credit for pumping lots of money into the NHS, but money needs

to be spent wisely. Be issued this week has really thrown into a

focused the quality of care. -- the issue this week. We need to have an

inspectorate would Teague back and not look at the quality of care.

And -- inspectorate with teeth. To this point, we have not had such an

inspectorate, we have focused on targets, and that was manipulating

the way that hospitals were run. We need to recognise that our

constituents and the people that use our hospitals want high quality

of care, and that is where things went wrong. Would Labour now say,

no more managers, and hospitals should be managed and run by

clinicians? No, I think you need managers in place. It is absolutely

crucial to have managers in place to make sure these incidents don't

happen. But you also need the doctors and nurses in place. I

guess I am worried the big top-down reforms the Conservatives are

bringing in will bring greater disruption to the NHS. I been we

need stability and to make sure the care people are getting is top

class. We have to leave it there. Thank you very much for coming in.

They are good friends really! I'm just saying that, they're probably