19/05/2013 Sunday Politics West

shooting of thousands of badgers. The Government says it will reduce

the number of cows being slaughtered because of TB but farmers and

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2152 seconds

the Sunday Politics here in the West. Coming up: We are days away

from the first shots being fired in a cull of badgers. The Government

says killing them will help stop the spread of TB to cattle so they'll be

shot in two trial zones in Somerset and Gloucestershire. But with

animals rights campaigners against it, will it turn into badger wars? A

farmer and a protestor will be going head to head later in the programme.

But first, let's welcome two politicians to our set. They are the

Conservative MP in the Cotswolds, Geoffrey Clifton-Brown, and for

Labour, Glyn Ford, who was a member of the European Parliament for 25

years. Let's talk about Europe, first of all. Geoffrey, is all this

banging on about Europe in the public interest? The UK Independence

party vote has focused everybody's minds, particularly the

Conservatives, as to how this might affect things next year and the

general election. Is it another Conservative civil war in the

offing? There is no civil war! The party are not clear about what

policies they want. What way would you vote? At the moment, if there is

no negotiation, I would probably vote to come out. I don't know why

he should stay on. I am involved in writing a book at the moment saying

the problem with Europe is too much of a Tory Europe. I say we need a

very different Europe that ends austerities. For his Europe, fine!

For the Europe I would like to see, people will want to stay in. What

this is about is saving David Cameron's career. He wants a

referendum in 2015. That's what it's about. If you're serious, do it

now! Why hasn't it become a much loved institution in this country:

The European Parliament? We don't expect every local institution to be

loved, do we? May be respected because we do make decisions that

shape peoples lives and the difference between where the

political centre of gravity is does make a difference. If you want a

different Europe, vote on another way.

The Government's cull of badgers is due to get underway very soon and

the first animals to be shot will be here in the West Country. Two zones

have been selected to try out the scheme and they are in Somerset and

Gloucestershire. But do the arguments for a cull stack up? We'll

be debating that shortly. First, here's Paul Barltrop.

Diseased and doomed. It's a dozen years since David Barton's farm near

Cirencester was first afflicted by bovine TB. But here, as elsewhere,

it's getting worse. This week, two more tested positive. I have been

doing this for ten, 11 years. When I have a lorry turn up taking all

these cars of mind that I have been breeding for years, that's a real

pain. He invited in the media on Friday to show how farmers suffer.

Also on the guest list were local councillors, among whom opinion

seems to be hardening against Government policy. The cull

continues to face considerable political opposition. This week, it

was once again debated by Gloucestershire County Council. They

voted that they didn't want it taking place on council-owned land

and called on the Government to concentrate on alternatives like

vaccination and improved biosecurity. In the Chamber, there

was much sympathy for farmers but more doubt than ever that shooting

badgers is the answer. It's important to put a marker down that

we believe the coal is the wrong way of going about this problem.

Vaccination is the way forward and we want to send a clear message out

to the Government to that end. Science is central to this argument.

Britain's biggest ever culling trial took place a decade ago in the West.

10,000 badgers were killed. In the end, scientists concluded culling

wasn't worth it. But a change of Government, and lasting benefits

from those trials, brought a change of tack. 100,000 badgers will be

killed for a reduction in bovine TB of 12-16%. Having looked at all the

evidence, I am utterly convinced that badger control is the right

thing to do. But MPs were not persuaded. In October, they voted to

abandon the cull. Can we have an indication from the Government that

the Government will go back and look again at the whole policy of the

badger cull and respect the democratic voice of this Parliament?

But ministers can - and have - ignored the vote. The shooting of

badgers could start within days. The benefits to cattle could take years

to emerge. Joining us is John Hore, who's a

farmer and NFU spokesperson in the West, but not from the cull zone,

and Jay Tiernan from Stop the Cull. How do you plan to stop the coal?

work week in, week out to stop hunts from a distance, and we will try and

stop the marksman by using light and sound. That sounds pretty

intimidating! It's not meant to be intimidating. Isn't it about going

into a pub and saying, no 1's going to get hurt if you do as we say?

It's about trying to stop badgers from being shot in a culvert should

not be happening. I shouldn't have too organise this campaign. What do

you feel about that? As farmers, we have been given the go-ahead by

government. What is being proposed is totally legal. I just hope that

the anti-coal protesters remain on the legal side of the law. They have

said they will but they are talking about direct action. Intimidation

comes in all forms, doesn't it? That is a great concern to farmers. TB is

out of control to such an extent this is something we have to go

ahead with. This is the only option on the table at the moment. But it

is not that effective. We would dispute those figures of 10-15%.

That is relating to the trials that were done. Since they were done, the

areas have been increased, so we would expect a much better result

than 17%. Shouldn't risk -- shouldn't you respect the views of

people who work the land? Maybe they should respect scientists wishes. I

have been told there are not even any scientists and deaf at the back

of the coal. There are no scientists behind it, Parliament doesn't want

it. As far as I can see, it is the NFU and big business pushing through

something that is not wanted. They have to be seen to be doing

something. But no one kills badgers for fun. If you look on Facebook,

there are many people on pro-badger cull groups who are looking forward

to shooting them. If there was a better way, do you think as farmers

and politicians we would adopt that way? This is the only thing on the

table at the moment. Vaccination is probably ten years of way. I am in

favour of the coal because those figures show there are a large

number of farmers who are suffering. It's a real emotional

loss when they lose cattle. It's just how effective it is. We believe

this will produce a big reduction. Where it has been tried and done

properly around the world, it has produced a significant reduction. If

this is done properly and allowed to proceed, we will see a significant

reduction. It is reasonable to take that point and say, let's just try

to zones. The results have shown a reduction. So would going to wipe

out all badgers to see if it might work? There is no intention to wipe

out all badgers. You don't have many badgers there are! The coal was

called off in September, November, because of the new figures of badger

numbers. And another a lot of figures came out in February and

they were lower. The coal would not have succeeded. Parliament voted

against it and yet it is still going ahead. It was an unofficial vote on

a Thursday afternoon. On his intimidation point, we will put on a

website, to try and intimidate us. This sort of intimidation is

unacceptable. I would say to him and his colleagues, this has been

decreed by a democratically elected government. Let's see if it works.

They will breed again. Over 250,000 cattle have been killed over the

last ten years. You can't win on finances. Labour didn't actually

tackle this, did it? That's true. That doesn't mean to say we have to

follow this. I'm convinced on the economic is an environmental impact.

What we're trying to do... I understand farmers are suffering. I

live in the Forest of Dean. What I'm suggesting is this seems to be, we

have to do something and we're not sure whether this is the right to

do. All we are after is a healthy countryside, healthy badgers.

will it work? Badgers aren't even going to be tested for TB. The whole

thing is a farce! What percentage would be tested? 10%. Of the ones

that are killed, you will be able to One of the biggest beasts in the

political jungle was in Bristol this week, urging councils to storm the

barricades of Westminster in the quest for more money and power. Lord

Heseltine was trying to rouse what he called a "peasants' revolt". He

thinks it could reverse decades of decline in local government. Here's

In the 19th century heyday of local government, your council could do it

all: Building the roads, putting in parks, piping your gas and supplying

your water. But now, town halls like this one have been reduced in size.

The short summary is we've got centralisation on steroids in the

sense that central government keeps taking power away from the local

level and it's done this over 20 or 30 years now to the point that local

government is really a pale shadow of what it used to be in the past.

They may be a shadow of their former selves, but councils do still have

some important jobs to do, like providing housing and care for the

elderly. But as demands in these areas grow, it's becoming a big ask,

not least because councils on reducing budgets hold very few of

their own purse strings. Local authorities don't have that much

freedom to raise their own money. 60% of money is central government

grants. There are a an awful lot of rules governing how local

authorities raise that money. We would like to see a bit more

autonomy for local government. week, the Mayor of Bristol held a

summit. The keynote speaker was in a rabble-rousing mood, calling for up

to �80 billion of government money to be returned to the regions. But

can we, outside of London, be trusted with such sums? The general

question about the competence of the localities is a very good one. So

what's the solution, more centralism or put right the problem of local

administration? My own view, and every international precedent

supports that view, you've got to have effective local administration.

In the case of Bristol, you need a mayor. Now you've got one, I believe

it's having a very salutary effect. What about the cuts? In this

five-year period, they are cutting back funding by a third. I don't

have any problems about the cuts. If you actually look at the graph, you

find this huge explosion under Gordon Brown. We were administered

perfectly well before the splurge and we can't afford it. There have

to be cuts and the public sector has to face its share of it. Those cuts

seem to be hitting the services councils aren't obliged to provide

by law the hardest, services like the arts. Some question whether

galleries like this one in Bristol should receive a penny of public

subsidy when services for vulnerable people are under threat. I used to

appear on the television defending the arts for the Arts Council.

Someone put up a slide for a care home that's about to close and you

thought, "Uh-oh! I'm losing the argument." It's very, very difficult

but there are hard arguments about the arts and I think - as Keynes

said - poverty of aspiration is as important as the other five giants

of physical poverty, and those days, it was seen as up there on a level

with public funding for education, of health and all those things that

were renewed after the War, but public funding for the arts was seen

as important for all of those. God, we've slipped since then! It's about

time we went up the agenda again. the future of an increasingly

strained local government seems to lie in restoring the glories of its

past. Next month, we'll find out if Lord Heseltine's cry to put the

regions in charge of billions of pounds of public spending has been

taken seriously by Westminster. In the meantime, Westminster has

promised to devolve down more borrowing powers. But without a

significant transfer back of money and power, our squeezed councils may

soon find themselves with a giant So are councillors capable of

running bigger budgets? Yes, absolutely. What Michael Heseltine

did in the 1980s, these were all done with local partnerships.

Councillors are capable of spending more money, but they should not be

spending it for the sake of it. is the mentality in Westminster?

Each local area is different from the next one. You need to unlock

local enterprise and energy to see how you can improve the area.

no reason why politics should not be reflected in the local council. I

was a local councillor for eight years. We introduced Japanese,

Arabic and Russian into the school curriculum. We abolished film

censorship. When you do decentralise, people say it is a

postcode lottery. You can get this service in Bristol but not in

Cheltenham. It is a reflection of different politics. It's perfectly

possible for Bristol council to have a different set of policies than

what they do in the Cotswolds or Liverpool, Glasgow or Cornwall.

better councils will produce more jobs and more investment and a

better standard of life for people. And that's democracy.

It's been a busy week. Let's take a look at some of the other political

stories making the headlines. Things were as heated as in Gordon

Ramsey's kitchen when the Bristol Mayor was caught on camera swearing

at a member of the public. George Ferguson claims Paul Saville was

harassing him so he told him to F off! But Mr Saville says he was just

raising a democratic point. I'm not a programme politician and I will

occasionally react in what might not be seen as the best way.

The family of right-to-die campaigner Tony Nicklinson from

Wiltshire have been back to court in a bid to make voluntary euthanasia

legal. They hope judges will overturn last year's ruling that

blocked him from ending his life with a doctor's help.

And Liam Fox, the Conservative MP from North Somerset, has been in

court, suing a Dubai businessman who revealed details about his unusual

working relationship with his friend Adam Werritty. Dr Fox resigned as

Defence Secretary over the allegations.

Every member of staff at Wiltshire Council is to be asked if they want

to take redundancy. 340 jobs are to go as the council tries to save

millions of pounds. Let's pick up on the swearing. Is it

ever right for a politicians to use the F word? Occasionally, we get

provoked to the extreme! Swearing is never acceptable, but sometimes,

it's difficult not to. Have you ever been tempted to do a John Prescott?

Very tempted! Why should politicians just sit there and be called scum or

whatever by other people? It's not very far between swearing and

getting violent. Once you start swearing, you have lost the

argument. Easier said than done, but it is incumbent on politicians to

set a example. Not a lot of politicians, is there? There's

probably less respect now than for a while. People never desperately

looked up to politicians in the past, but as a class, no.