23/06/2013 Sunday Politics West


Andrew Neil and David Garmston with the latest political news, interviews and debate.

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that's recycling their old ways of doing things. Yes, Swindon are left


red-faced as they admit it's cheaper to bring essential services back


Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2115 seconds


programme. 20 minutes of political debate to come. How council services


like this in Swindon are changing to save money but was it a rubbish idea


to involve private enterprise in the first place? Joining us today to


members of the European Parliament whose parties are often at war with


each other. Sometimes they are good friends. They Julie Girling and


William Dartmouth, a Tory peer who defected to the UK Independence


Party in 2007. Welcome. First the renegotiation of our terms


in Europe. How's that going? It has not started because the


renegotiation that the prime and Steph has talked about is predicated


on winning the 20 15th election so he can go forward with the 2017


in-out referendum based on the situation. What are your colleagues


saying? I lay saying it is a good idea or not? Some say it is


absolutely unthinkable and they cannot do anything. That the UK


won't do anything. Privately, depending on the country, our


colleagues have their own bit of the relationship with the youth that


they want to renegotiate. There is support across the board depending


on the issue. We are already seeing that. What more could you want?


have to get the agreement of all 27 EU member states, which is highly


unlikely. Anything they come away with, as Nigel Lawson said, or he


wrote it, will be inconsequential. In the next couple of weeks, Croatia


is becoming a member of the European Union, which is another poor country


with a GDP per capita half of that which we enjoy in the UK, which the


British taxpayer will have to pay for. It also highlights the fact


that the establishment parties, Conservative, Labour and to them


want six more very poor countries, such as Turkey, to become members of


the European Union. What you are saying is that when they go to


European Union they will not give an inch but when we leave they will


want to trade with us anyway? saying that the renegotiation is


something that was floated by David Cameron for internal reasons of the


Conservative party. There is no king 's -- there is no consistency to it.


We will put a date in the diary for that discussion. Can I just say that


UKIP are a long way from knowing what the negotiating position is in


the EU because they do not participate. They may be members of


parliament but they don't participate in the work SO how they


would know how the negotiations will go... You are not part of the


European Parliament's discussion on anything. Moving on, the scandal of


the Care Quality Commission, which is meant to be our ayes and ears in


care homes and hospitals making sure that people are properly looked


after. The commission is accused of


covering up failings and looking after its own interests instead of


ours was the it comes as no surprise to one care worker from Somerset who


blew the whistle at the institution where she worked.


This week, the Care Quality Commission has been in the aye of a


storm over how it responds to concerns about patient care. The


waves of concern go back many years. All the way to this care home in


Somerset and how it's manager, Rachel Baker, were siphoning off


money. She is now in prison for killing one of the residents. Sarah


Barnett thinks that the CQC is not fit for purpose. The trouble is, the


last government founded difficult to stomach some of those truths. It was


easier to give the inspections to a tame body who can gloss over things


that were difficult and the problems you are seeing now are legacy from


that decision back in 2005 to put appearance over reality. More


recently, questions over how the CQC response to whistleblowers have been


raised by the scandal of Winterbourne View. Adults with


learning disabilities were filmed being abused, hit and taunted. This


nurse says that the regulator failed to respond to his concerns. In the


past, CQC inspections have been criticised for only scratching the


surface, so now the watchdog is launching a public consultation on


its plans to upgrade inspections of the NHS. The first public meeting


nationally is in Bristol in a weeks time.


We asked the care quality commission to speak to us today but there was


no one available for comment. We can meet the whistleblower, Sarah


Barnett, who we saw in the film there. Thank you for joining us.


Give us the background. You are working at this care home and what


sort of raised your concerns? things back then. I had concerns


about medication, the rate of deaths within the home, documentation,


numerous concerns at the time. This was going on at you decided that you


had to get some assistance in this. What happened when you try to raise


the alarm? More importantly, there was an inspection by the regulatory


body that deemed the home save and meeting all needs for the residents.


That delayed me raising my concerns and made me question myself. There


were six more deaths at the home before I eventually contacted the


regulatory body to have a meeting with them to report things. What


happened then? Then it was incredibly fast moving and the


police became involved and it was a criminal enquiry. Unfortunately, the


residents had to leave their home and the manager of the home was


convicted of manslaughter. What are your thoughts about the performance


now they Care Quality Commission? Naively, I think I had I issued at


the time it was quite traumatic for many people involved, that this


would not happen again. I think that is what is so desperately sad.


Family cases do we need in a decade, with Winterbourne View and


Parkfields Care Home and so on? I am not surprised. Why is it not


working? Our expectations for this body are too wide-ranging. The


portfolio is too enormous. I don't think anybody could cover everything


in one remote and provide regulation for it. What is the answer?


Independent inspectorate bodies. That is what it is posted be, isn't


it? I don't think it is. It cannot be independent if it is that a


government run body. It is whether this needs to go back down to


community areas. Certainly need to be split down into specialist areas


so acute trusts are not treated in the same way as dentistry and small


residential trust. Institutions that provide bad care are often good at


covering it up, aren't they? They probably are but on the other hand


they are not necessarily try to covered cover it up. The sad thing


is that our confidence will be lost in the care home industry, right


through to the NHS Trust. There are fantastic front-line workers and in


any care situation, that is based on an amount of trust. What this has


done and what he CQC has done is destroy that trust. They are not


here, we did invite them, as I said. I bet they say that the we do not


see the good work that they do. We would be blind not to see the


mistakes and we would be irresponsible if we did not deal


with them. That is the problem. We have enquiries and serious case


reviews and this report and there are recommendations and actions to


be made from them. Where are these actions? Where are these


recommendations? When will we have legislation? Let us bring in our


politicians. Any suggestions? We have seen the culture of secrecy,


which I hope has been blown apart a little bit. We have taken away


hiding behind the data protection act. That is a good sign. Clearly


anything that happens is a bad thing. We have got to get it in


proportion. I think possibly the government needs to look at


resources to make sure that there is enough there to do the job properly.


We have been wasting our resources on gagging clauses rather than


sorting anything out. That has come out this week as well. That issue of


gagging clauses and data protection is up for public discussion now.


can shine a light on it and pick some changes. Are there any lessons


we can learn from across the Channel? I don't think they are


reading about this scandal in continental Europe. The important


point is that gagging orders should be completely out. We have just read


that the NHS has spent �28 million of taxpayers money on gagging


orders. What is it they are trying to conceal? The BBC has spent �22


million of licence payers money on gagging orders. I haven't seen any


of it! I'm just reporting the papers. These gagging orders should


be made illegal for public bodies. We have to leave it there. Thank you


for coming in. Do you know what your Jordan are up to when they are on


the computer? The government is worried that kids are being allowed


unsupervised access to the Internet. Claire Perry is leading a campaign


to make it harder 14 ages to gain access -- for teenagers to gain


access to pornography. This is a philosophical issue. If we have 22%


of people saying how they are concerned how easy it is to gain


access to adult content, we have to do something. We are not


legislating. It is an area where the governance should start wading in


and passing laws? What we should be doing is working with the Internet


service providers, the top four of whom have about 90% of the market


and saying you are involved in this, what are you going to do about


it? We should have filters that protect all of the devices in the


home. They need to be more robust. The other area that we debated last


week, quite hotly, was the issue of material that is unequivocally


illegal, images of children. That material is not acceptable in the UK


so why is it still available? That is an area of concern across made


apartments will stop the safeguard we want is we do not want people to


be able to access it either online or in the off-line world. Many


people say should be blocked but it is the access that children may may


not have that is the more contentious issue. That is a matter


for mum and dad. You say that but we know that mum and dad... Is it


really? In every other industry, including the BBC, we have not just


said to parents, the BBC will broadcast whatever it likes, 24-hour


is a day and it is your job to turn it off. We don't say that you take


pot luck about the films you see at the cinema. We accept a partnership


between government, companies and consumers in the media to help keep


children safe. On the Internet, it is different. When I first started


using the Internet in 1996, that may have been true. But now it is such a


mainstream way of communicating and transmitting content that I don't


think that ideology applies any more. We have got to do more. We


know it is a great concern. I don't pick regulation is the right way to


do it but we have got to work together and deliver better filters.


Have you turned into a modern Mary Whitehouse? I have been called many


things and I don't care about the insults... It is not an insult!


is utter nonsense. We already have filters that are available that are


provided for every individual device in our home. You have to download


them onto everything. I don't know how the Internet enabled the vices


you have, probably quite a few. We know that parents do not do that, it


is too difficult and two, located, they don't understand it. What we


are saying is that companies have got to do more, produce better


filters and we need to educate people about how to do that. Should


parents have access to their children's computers, their


passwords, their codes for their mobile phones? Does it not depend on


the age of the child? I have teenage children and it is a matter of


judgement. People are paying for these contracts, you cannot engage


in a contract until you are 18. Should we not have some


responsibility to make sure that we know who our children's


conversations happening with? The mobile phone companies put him place


and adult content bar seat cannot get access to adult content and you


prove you are 18. It is not censorship, it is common sense.


Thank you. A company set up to save Swindon taxpayers money has cost


them dear. It is only FUD is since councillors


passed road maintenance and rubbish collection to Swindon Commercial


Services. Now it is what being brought back in.


Councils are trying to seek better, cheaper ways of delivering public


services. In Swindon, they thought they had done that. Dozens of staff


were transferred to Swindon Commercial Services.


When SCCS became a company in 2010, hopes were high. The official aim


was that it would benefit services and increase revenue return. It has


been far from the case. The additional costs of this stand-alone


company are from 1.5 to �2 million a year.


So the administration is set to bring most of it back in-house. It


is easy through hindsight to say it was not the right decision. We never


expected the events that have happened to have happened. You could


argue it is a little embarrassing. Labour councillors warned that the


expected savings could fail to materialise once again. They dressed


it up as the greatest thing since sliced bread, this company. Now they


are bringing it back because that is the best thing to do. Either they


were wrong then they are wrong now. In my view, they were wrong both


times. The council have you believe that this lot are losing money. They


did not make as much money as they were predicted to make and that is


not their fault. It is because of some of the things that the council


itself has done. It has driven down the amount of money that they are


prepared to pay for the services that they are provided. 550 staff


will go back to being council employees for now. Services will


then be reconfigured and cuts are inevitable. We will do everything we


can to protect jobs but we have to live in the rule world which says


that the government are talking about reducing the level of support


to local government across the country and my area of concern now


is delivering in Swindon. We Jews, reuse and recycle. A philosophy not


just for Swindon residents but also, it seems, their counsel.


Councillors are trying to make ends meet, not necessarily successfully,


you want even more cuts, don't you? Rubbish disposal has been made more


expensive by EU directives. The landfill directive which was brought


about by your predecessor, Caroline Jackson, which has made rubbish


disposal more offensive across the country. That would go under UKIP?


We would be able to make our own rules in our own way, in our own


national interest. Using free enterprise doesn't always work,


where does this end? It does not always work but it does sometimes. I


was the leader of the council when we bought in privatising waste


collection. It worked well 15 years ago and it is still going on. It has


expanded and is in cooperation with other councils and is now doing


extreme the well. It is one of the highest performing in the country.


Swindon has had a different experience and I don't know the


details of it but I think local government is local, it is about


making local decisions that are right for your area and Swindon... I


take my hat off to them. They said it was a mistake, they are going


back to try and do something different. It is quite a fresh and


because you hear politicians say that they won't go back on


something, they keep ploughing the Minister on Foster has promised


extra money this week to bring empty hands back into use.


There is no special treatment for his local area. We have had to


targeted on those areas where the problems are most acute. In Bristol,


the mayor has been gearing up for his first car free Sunday. He is


getting tough on traffic across the city. He is considering a low


emission zone on top of his plans for residents parking zones. He has


coming from some stinging criticism from councillors who say his plans


are ill thought out. I am always juggling the different parties! And


UKIP's Alex Wood says that the police have cleared him of making


racist comments. He was suspended after it was said he made racist


images and comment on his Facebook page. Let us pick up on that UKIP


story, as you are here. It seems this young man may have


been stitched up. What is your reaction? The national


newspaper that stitched him up and carry that paper that may have been


done by photo shop, on the front page. He said it was out of context,


not photo shop. We are a party that challenges the establishment


parties, particularly on the European Union but also on


immigration. In consequence, we do get a lot of abuse, led by the Prime


Minister, David Cameron. You are hardly outside of the


establishment. The UK Independence Party is and that is what we are


talking about. We're not talking about me. We do attract a lot of


abuse. You don't like being called fruitcakes and all of that? It is


not something that used to belong in the discourse of national political


life. A serious politician should have nothing to do it. I have been


accused by something by UKIP, cleared of it for days later. I'm


not complaining about that. It sounds like you are complaining!


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