22/09/2013 Sunday Politics West


22/09/2013

Andrew Neil and David Garmston with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Ed Miliband and the

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rest of the Labour clan are in Brighton for their party conference

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this weekend. He's promised policies galore. But as a Sunday Politics

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councillors don't think he's doing a good job, will that be enough to

:00:53.:01:01.

partying like it's 2006, as Damian McBride's memoirs re-ignite the

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Blair-Brown wars. Alastair Campbell will tell us why he is sickened

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Blair-Brown wars. Alastair Campbell infighting, Conservative Party

:01:13.:01:13.

Chairman Grant Shapps will give infighting, Conservative Party

:01:13.:01:16.

In the West, under new management, Western General Hospital is staying

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business. In London, Labour commands over the two thirds of the ethnic

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minority vote but now stands accused of institutional racism. Are they

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right? With me, the best and the brightest political panel in the

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business. Isabel Hardman, Janan be tweeting like demented Damians

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throughout the programme. First today, scrapping the bedroom tax.

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Universal childcare for primary school kids. More apprenticeships.

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Labour Conference only begins in earnest today, but the policy and

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spending commitments are coming according to the Labour leader's

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critics. He's been out and about this morning and told Andrew Marr

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that he knew it was going to be this morning and told Andrew Marr

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It is about a party that lost office three years ago. We are trying to be

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a one term opposition. That is tough. I believe it is a fight that

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we can win and I am up for that fight. The stakes are so high for

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young people who want a job, for people whose living standards are

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being squeezed. For people who think that this is not good enough for

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Britain. So what do key Labour Party activists - its councillors - think

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about the direction Mr Miliband activists - its councillors - think

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taking their party? Adam Fleming is in Brighton at the Party Conference

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with all the details of our latest exclusive Sunday Politics survey.

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conference set. Let us unwrap them. With the help of an opinion poll we

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surveyed 1350 Labour councillors across England and Wales. We wanted

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to find out what they think as Labour gathers for its conference.

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The Labour leader warmed up for Labour gathers for its conference.

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week by taking to his soap box in Brighton city centre. It is great

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week by taking to his soap box in councillors said they did not think

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Ed Miliband was doing a good job as leader. 30% said they thought the

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party would have a better chance if someone else was in charge at the

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next election. You will see more of Ed Miliband as we run-up to general

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election. He has been in the job for three years! Now it is crunch time.

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The other Ed, Ed Balls, was disliked by roughly one third of the party as

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well. Ed Balls is not a pop your man. He says things and he speaks

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his mind. -- not a popular man. diplomatic. Sadly Ed Balls did not

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seem to be that bothered about our survey. Over at a conference centre

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When it comes to relations with trade unions, the majority of Labour

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councillors thought things were absolutely fine. Just 9% thought

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things with the unions were a little bit too close. Tricky because Ed

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Miliband want to loosen the link. The shadow environment secretary

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arrived in Brighton ride bicycle from London to raise money for

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councillors what they would do if the next election results in a hung

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parliament, just over half said the next election results in a hung

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would tell the lid Dems to get on their bikes. We would never say

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would tell the lid Dems to get on to going into coalition. It gives us

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the chance to be in government and prepare some of the damage of the

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last three years. So are you going to start being nice about the Lib

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Dems? I always treat them with courtesy. And the parties admitted

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that perhaps they had opened the door to too many immigrants. It

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that perhaps they had opened the our survey Labour councillors of

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warming the felt that immigration We're now joined by the Shadow Chief

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Secretary to the Treasury, Rachel Reeves. Good morning. Let us start

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with Ed Miliband. Is it true that the team insisted that he be called

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the leader? I just call him Ed and I think the rest of the Shadow Cabinet

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do. Do you welcome working for a leader that says he is winning back

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socialism? We are a democratic important thing is that we have

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socialism? We are a democratic policies that will improve people 's

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lives and tackle the cost of living crisis facing so many families.

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Policies like expanding childcare, offering more apprenticeships, all

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policies that I think the country are calling out for after three

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years of a flat-lining economy and seeing prices rise faster than wages

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for 38 out of the 39 months but Minister. I think that is the most

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important thing. So it is OK now to risk their to the Labour Party again

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as the Socialist party? The clue is in the name, we stand up for working

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people. You are socialist party according to the leader. We have

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always been the Labour Party, that is our name and we stand up for

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working people, not the privileged few like this government with their

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tax cuts for millionaires. Those are privileged few. The Labour Party is

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about helping everyone in Britain, all families. Interesting that your

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run don't use the word socialist. In our survey one third of Labour

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councillors said Ed Miliband was not doing a good job as leader. If he

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councillors, who can he convince? Well you could say that two thirds

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of councillors think that he is Well you could say that two thirds

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right leader. But these are Labour councillors. The overall majority of

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Labour councillors think that he is doing a good job. What matters is

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the results on election day. Two thirds of councillors think that he

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is doing a good job. That us see what they say at the end of this

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week. Because I think the policies he is announcing will go down well

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week. Because I think the policies with Labour Party people and will

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also resonate with the British public. Policies like expanding

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apprenticeships, giving a break public. Policies like expanding

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struggling. I think people will public. Policies like expanding

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what kind of a leader that he is. Well he has a mountain to climb

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among all voters. Let me ask the question. Just 12% see him as a

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Prime Minister in waiting, just question. Just 12% see him as a

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see him as a natural leader. Why? If question. Just 12% see him as a

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you look at the overall opinion polls, we are consistently ahead in

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those polls. It is hard being leader demonstrate how you would be Prime

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Minister. By nature you are in opposition. But he has taken on

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Rupert Murdoch and the press barons. That is strong leadership, standing

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up to the vast majority. If you That is strong leadership, standing

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at his reforms to our relationship with the trade unions, strengthening

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ties with individual members. I think that he is a strong leader

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making the right decisions. If that is the case, why has the Labour

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making the right decisions. If that gone from 14 points one year ago to

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at most four points now. What went wrong? Well we are six or eight

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are six or eight points ahead in the consistently ahead. It looks as

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are six or eight points ahead in the we would get an overall majority if

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there was an election tomorrow. we would get an overall majority if

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we have more work to do to convince more people to vote for Labour.

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we have more work to do to convince this is a historic challenge, to be

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a one term Labour opposition. I this is a historic challenge, to be

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a one term Labour opposition. I believe that Ed Miliband will be the

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next Labour Prime Minister and will be an excellent Prime Minister. The

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big policy announcement today is the guaranteed childcare for all primary

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school children. How much will that government, they ring fenced money

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after-school and breakfast clubs. We think that money should be ring

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fenced again. How much will it cost? We are saying that schools

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within their budgets should be able to provide that. At the moment they

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can charge for children to come to provide that. At the moment they

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their first clubs. But this is a additional money. As it was under

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the last Labour government it will be about ring fencing money because

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we think that this is a priority. This is something that the schools

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should do. You cannot ring fenced money you do not have. You saying

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schoolchild from eight o'clock in the morning until six o'clock at

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night and it will not cost any more money? Well we did ring fence that

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money in the last Labour government. That money is gone! It has not gone.

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It is about priorities and we are saying that it should be a priority

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where is the money being spent now that you would take it from? If

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where is the money being spent now look at some of the things that

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where is the money being spent now government is doing, building free

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schools in areas where there are already enough. That is capital

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spending. We are ring fencing that priorities. We had the ring fence

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when we were in government. It would be reintroduced so that schools

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when we were in government. It would to offer that wraparound care. Of

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course schools can charge a small to offer that wraparound care. Of

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fee for their breakfast clubs and after-school DVDs. But the important

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thing is that provision is there for parents going out to work. Ed Balls

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and Ed Miliband are at the heart of the Brown project. Damien Wright was

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the hit man. Is it not inconceivable that they did not know what he was

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the hit man. Is it not inconceivable up to. It is inconceivable that

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the hit man. Is it not inconceivable did not -- Damian McBride. I am

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asking about Damian McBride. What did not -- Damian McBride. I am

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asking about Damian McBride. What I'm saying is that I was not there.

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I was not there under the last Labour government. But I do know

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that these things are not happening under the leadership of Ed Miliband.

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that backstabbing going on. There is no plotting against Ed Balls going

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on? I do not see that. And anyone who briefed against colleagues

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should be sacked, I agree with that. Nick Clegg's conference speech made

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it clear he was repaired to work with Ed Miliband in the event of a

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hung parliament. Are you excited by that prospect or is it just boring?

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That is very generous of Nick Clegg to say that. With his poll ratings

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of 9%. I think it is up to the general public to decide who they

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want to form a government. We are campaigning for an overall Labour

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that just boring boring? I want campaigning for an overall Labour

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serve in a Labour government is campaigning for an overall Labour

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a coalition government. That is campaigning for an overall Labour

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we are campaigning for. Thank you for joining us. Steve Richards,

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we are campaigning for. Thank you has Ed Miliband got to do this

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week? He has got to start to win the argument about the economy. I think

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they will be quite clever on that in terms of saying that the recovery

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has begun but it is not going to benefit many of the voters. Unlike

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previous economic recoveries. That is a strong line and they need to

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make that again and again. The recovery has barely started. The

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make that again and again. The interesting thing, Isabel, they

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make that again and again. The to make a living standards the issue

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let's return to living standards which have been squeezed. The polls

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show that twice as many people blame Labour for the living standards

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show that twice as many people blame the Conservatives. It is a great

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scene for them to mine, and it is the only one before they announce

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big policies, but they have not gained the trust of voters on the

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economy, so the Conservatives can say they are finishing the job of

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fixing the recovery now and then cannot quite trust us with the

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economy but we will talk about living standards. Ed Miliband's

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economy but we will talk about elucidating policies and not just

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incredibly vulnerable. The only thing worse than not having a policy

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for an opposition leader is to have a policy. It gives the opposition

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something to attack, the media something to scrutinise and it makes

:16:24.:16:26.

you bold rubble and you can see something to scrutinise and it makes

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coming through already before the conference has started. You have

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childcare. Spigot can he provide wraparound childcare for free?

:16:41.:16:47.

childcare. Spigot can he provide can he provide wraparound childcare

:16:47.:16:49.

for free? I don't even know what it is. Opposition is emphatically an

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art form, and the art form, and artform for them at the moment is to

:16:56.:17:00.

announce policies without spending any money and it is very difficult

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to do. You gave an illustration any money and it is very difficult

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how difficult it is. They are under huge pressure, for the last year, to

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announce policies and they announce one on childcare and you immediately

:17:14.:17:18.

say, how do you paper it? And she immediately says, we will not spend

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a penny on it, because they are terrified of spending anything.

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a penny on it, because they are is where it an artform. The tax

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suspension before and election is crazy, because they will find money

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one way or another, but in another way, they cannot say we will spend

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money on this. It is a real problem. How do you measure the state of

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money on this. It is a real problem. coalition after the Liberal Democrat

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conference? The Liberal Democrats were in a very strong position after

:17:47.:17:51.

their conference, Nick Clegg had faced and activists on some issues,

:17:51.:17:55.

including fracking, which they supported, which seem to be the

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including fracking, which they important part of the conference. In

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terms of the coalition, the Tories have had to sit and watch as Vince

:18:02.:18:06.

Cable, Nick Clegg and Coe have basically criticised them and said

:18:06.:18:10.

they are evil and only the Lib Dems can make sure the Government is

:18:10.:18:13.

they are evil and only the Lib Dems and works properly. So in terms

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they are evil and only the Lib Dems how the coalition works, you can

:18:15.:18:17.

expect to see some revenge at the Tory conference. The Lib Dems, Nick

:18:17.:18:25.

Clegg's followers, they had their revenge. Mister Clegg may have

:18:25.:18:32.

convinced his own activists to stay behind him, but he has a bigger

:18:32.:18:38.

convincing the British people. There is some interesting polling they

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have done privately that suggests there is a market of about 25% of

:18:41.:18:46.

the electorate which is plausibly open to them, and all they have

:18:46.:18:50.

the electorate which is plausibly do is target policies remorselessly

:18:50.:18:51.

at that group, rather than the broader public, in order to do well

:18:51.:18:55.

enough at the next election to hold the balance of power. That is why

:18:55.:18:58.

policies that seem weird to us, the balance of power. That is why

:18:58.:19:01.

free school meals regardless of income, may perversely make sense to

:19:01.:19:15.

them. Because it appeals to their political world we are in, the

:19:15.:19:17.

Labour strategists think they can political world we are in, the

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Labour strategists think they can win with 35%, the Lib Dems are going

:19:20.:19:20.

to concentrate on 25. The Tories win with 35%, the Lib Dems are going

:19:20.:19:22.

to concentrate on 25. The Tories have seized to be a national party

:19:22.:19:24.

any more. We haven't been used to it for a long time. In the 80s, one

:19:24.:19:28.

party dominated, the Tories. In for a long time. In the 80s, one

:19:28.:19:32.

90s into the 21st century, the policy matter delayed the Labour

:19:32.:19:39.

Party dominated. -- the Labour party dominated. We are now here but we

:19:39.:19:42.

have other parties hoping that dominated. We are now here but we

:19:42.:19:46.

will give them a small overall majority and it is the best they can

:19:46.:19:49.

get. It is a very odd situation where the main two parties feel

:19:49.:19:55.

get. It is a very odd situation can lose and the Lib Dems are openly

:19:55.:20:00.

targeting only 25%. They have gotten rid of 75% already and it is a long

:20:00.:20:05.

way from the policies of last couple of decades Nick Clegg talked about

:20:05.:20:12.

all of the policies he had locked. There is a real opportunity for

:20:12.:20:15.

all of the policies he had locked. Conservatives to say that he is

:20:15.:20:17.

blocking all of the things that voters outside of our bays are

:20:17.:20:21.

interested in, top immigration policy, human rights reform, that

:20:21.:20:26.

sort of thing. David Cameron can say that in Manchester next week. One

:20:26.:20:30.

thing was quite clear, it came out of this awayday, and and this is

:20:30.:20:46.

this, that when you look at Mister Miller band's polls, the Tories

:20:46.:20:51.

this, that when you look at Mister going to make this a presidential

:20:51.:20:57.

Which is why I am curious why they When the strength of your party

:20:57.:21:04.

Which is why I am curious why they against his opponents, why not have

:21:04.:21:07.

him or her juxtaposed against them in 90 minutes three times a week.

:21:07.:21:09.

past week has given us inklings When the Lib Dems gathered for their

:21:09.:21:17.

Government is planning on fighting When the Lib Dems gathered for their

:21:17.:21:23.

annual shindig in Glasgow, some ministers were non-too complimentary

:21:23.:21:25.

about their blue blood fellows. ministers were non-too complimentary

:21:25.:21:31.

bedfellows. Vince Cable led the ministers were non-too complimentary

:21:31.:21:36.

Tories had reverted to type as a nasty party and describe their

:21:36.:21:40.

politics as ugly, cynical, callous and prejudice. Nick Clegg did not

:21:40.:21:44.

restrict himself to policies that and prejudice. Nick Clegg did not

:21:44.:21:47.

the Lib Dems had champion, such and prejudice. Nick Clegg did not

:21:47.:21:49.

increasing the amount you can earn before paying tax. The Deputy Prime

:21:49.:21:58.

Minister proudly listed all of the things he had stopped the Tories

:21:58.:22:01.

from doing. Speak of scrapping housing benefit the young people,

:22:01.:22:05.

no. No to ditching the human rights act. No to weakening the protections

:22:05.:22:13.

in the equalities act. So how much of a break have the yellow brigade

:22:13.:22:16.

being on Conservative ambitions question mark in the two leaders

:22:16.:22:18.

shake hands again after the 20 question mark in the two leaders

:22:18.:22:22.

election, what policies were David Cameron insist on. -- 2015? No

:22:22.:22:29.

matter how many times Nick Clegg And Grant Shapps joins me the Sunday

:22:29.:22:32.

Grant Shapps, good morning. Nick self-styled. He boasted to his

:22:32.:22:48.

conference that he had stopped the Tories from going ahead with 16

:22:48.:22:52.

policies in government. Is this accurate? I don't know but what

:22:53.:22:56.

policies in government. Is this can tell you, as your commentator

:22:56.:22:59.

Isabel said, some of the policies that we wanted them if we were a

:22:59.:23:02.

majority government sent out to that we wanted them if we were a

:23:02.:23:05.

very popular things, like reforming the human rights act and some of the

:23:06.:23:10.

problems that provides when it comes to sending people who have no right

:23:10.:23:11.

to be in this country back. So there to be in this country back. So there

:23:11.:23:14.

may be some things we could have inheritance tax cut? I don't know

:23:15.:23:24.

the details, but I think it is negotiation and sometimes you can't

:23:24.:23:30.

get everything you want, and we negotiation and sometimes you can't

:23:30.:23:35.

done the best, given where the electoral maths left us. That is why

:23:35.:23:37.

70 people in this country say they electoral maths left us. That is why

:23:37.:23:39.

70 people in this country say they would rather see a single party

:23:39.:23:42.

running the country -- why so many people. I have to say I agree. They

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Give me a couple of major policies that you would introduce if you

:23:49.:23:53.

Give me a couple of major policies had a majority in 2010 and were

:23:53.:23:56.

Give me a couple of major policies held back by the Lib Dems. Speaking

:23:56.:24:01.

the one I just mentioned would be Country, we have had 1,000 years of

:24:01.:24:07.

than capable of putting in place developing the law and we are more

:24:07.:24:11.

than capable of putting in place sensible laws. you would have left

:24:11.:24:14.

the European Court of human rights. We have already started the process

:24:14.:24:19.

of negotiation. There was some progress, but limited, and we would

:24:19.:24:23.

like to move further. Let me give you one other. I think this country

:24:23.:24:27.

has a great future but we can only ourselves the best place in the

:24:27.:24:30.

world to come and set up a business. ourselves the best place in the

:24:30.:24:34.

If we make ourselves the best place entrepreneurship and I think there

:24:34.:24:39.

are a host of things we could do to go further on cutting back red tape.

:24:39.:24:44.

And the Lib Dems have stopped you? I think that is the case. In what

:24:44.:24:52.

ways, if any, have the Lib Dems improved the coalition process? It

:24:52.:24:56.

has been a stable government. No one talks about when the next election

:24:56.:24:58.

will come, we know it is in May talks about when the next election

:24:58.:25:04.

but that is in part being in a coalition. The Tories wouldn't have

:25:04.:25:10.

done that? It wasn't the plan of any party to go from... In the old days,

:25:10.:25:16.

there would have been speculation. debate, you changed the British

:25:16.:25:21.

constitution in a fundamental way and nobody got a say. It was debated

:25:21.:25:27.

on the floor of the Has, as all constitutional changes are and there

:25:27.:25:33.

was a lot of agreement -- of the House. Nobody has ever said to me

:25:33.:25:36.

that it is a problem that we now have a fixed term parliament. Here

:25:36.:25:44.

it is, every five years. This is what it has done, it has provided

:25:44.:25:49.

stability in an incredibly uncertain economic time and that has been

:25:49.:25:52.

stability in an incredibly uncertain for the economy. we will chalk that

:25:52.:26:01.

up to delete -- Lib Dem. What about taking people out of tax, the Lib

:26:01.:26:09.

Dems did that question mark it is a great policy. It is a conservative

:26:09.:26:15.

led government, it is a Conservative This is a screen grab from your

:26:15.:26:21.

party's website, income tax cut This is a screen grab from your

:26:21.:26:25.

25 million people. You are taking the credit for it, it wouldn't have

:26:25.:26:29.

happened without the Lib Dems. It certainly came about because of

:26:29.:26:33.

happened without the Lib Dems. It coalition and we put it in the

:26:33.:26:35.

coalition agreement. It could not have happened without a Conservative

:26:35.:26:36.

Chancellor making it happen. It have happened without a Conservative

:26:36.:26:41.

right, 25 million people taken out of tax. Another 17 by this April

:26:41.:26:48.

will not be paying tax at all. you didn't want to do it. Look at what

:26:48.:26:52.

David Cameron told Nick Clegg during What Nick Clegg is promising is

:26:52.:27:06.

David Cameron told Nick Clegg during £17 billion tax cut. We are saying,

:27:06.:27:10.

stop the waste of 6 billion to stop the national insurance rise. I would

:27:10.:27:14.

love to take everyone out of their first £10,000 of income tax, it

:27:14.:27:17.

love to take everyone out of their beautiful idea but we cannot afford

:27:17.:27:24.

unaffordable and now you are taking the credit for it. I feel like it is

:27:24.:27:30.

having a three year afterwards argument, and we got into coalition

:27:30.:27:33.

because the British people put us there and we agreed to make the

:27:33.:27:37.

because the British people put us of it. And as it happens, if you

:27:37.:27:41.

absolutely think it is the right thing to take as many people out of

:27:41.:27:45.

tax entirely as possible. Two points 7 million people pay no tax at all

:27:46.:27:54.

threshold. -- 2.7 million. I'm pleased it worked out. What are

:27:54.:27:59.

threshold. -- 2.7 million. I'm most important thing is a majority

:27:59.:27:59.

Tory government would do after most important thing is a majority

:27:59.:28:05.

unencumbered by the Lib Dems? I think produce even more jobs when

:28:05.:28:07.

unemployment goes down, because think produce even more jobs when

:28:08.:28:11.

are the most entrepreneurial place to set up a business. Are more

:28:11.:28:16.

free-market economy? We make our money because we are out global

:28:16.:28:20.

trading economy. That is why it money because we are out global

:28:20.:28:26.

so important that we have to make sure it is easy to trade around

:28:26.:28:30.

so important that we have to make world. One simple example, it is

:28:30.:28:32.

crazy in my view that we have global tariffs that prevent some of the

:28:32.:28:34.

hardest other countries in the tariffs that prevent some of the

:28:34.:28:36.

hardest other countries in the world, in developing parts of the

:28:36.:28:36.

world, from exporting to us and world, in developing parts of the

:28:36.:28:43.

versa. I'm giving you a platform of things that I think we would be

:28:43.:28:47.

versa. I'm giving you a platform of interested in progressing in. It

:28:47.:28:50.

sounds like you are talking about even more Thatcherite, market led

:28:50.:28:52.

agendas. I think that you did a even more Thatcherite, market led

:28:52.:28:59.

amount to show this country that if you want to help the least well

:28:59.:29:02.

amount to show this country that if people in society, and the least

:29:02.:29:05.

well off people in the world, around the globe, the way to do it is to

:29:05.:29:09.

trade, and I think we should have an economy which is much more open

:29:09.:29:14.

trade, and I think we should have an free trade. If there is another

:29:14.:29:15.

trade, and I think we should have an parliament, and the poll suggest

:29:15.:29:19.

there might be, at the moment it is all to play for on both sides, what

:29:19.:29:25.

would your non-negotiable Red Line speak? We are still two years away

:29:25.:29:31.

from that, it is a long way away, but there is a lot we want to lay

:29:31.:29:35.

out. What we are going to be saying to this country is most people want

:29:35.:29:40.

a single party running the country, they think it is clean and clear and

:29:40.:29:44.

you don't end up with negotiation setting out a very clear platform

:29:44.:29:49.

which will be for hard-working people in this country who want

:29:49.:29:52.

which will be for hard-working work hard and get on in life. We

:29:52.:29:55.

would, I think, want to see the welfare state that we have got into,

:29:55.:29:59.

where it is no longer about helping those most in need but became a

:29:59.:30:02.

situation where you are better off not working than in worker, I think

:30:02.:30:08.

we plan to ensure that this is an incredibly fair place to go out

:30:08.:30:11.

we plan to ensure that this is an do a day's work and get the money at

:30:11.:30:14.

the end of the day rather than thinking there is an alternative.

:30:14.:30:17.

you have promised a referendum on UK membership of the EU in 2017, that

:30:17.:30:19.

must be your first Red Line? We membership of the EU in 2017, that

:30:19.:30:27.

clear, we want to see a referendum, a reform European Union. So no

:30:27.:30:35.

poll... ? I should remind viewers that there is an act of Parliament,

:30:35.:30:38.

a bill going through Parliament right now, for a referendum on the

:30:38.:30:46.

EU, which comes back to the House. It is past the report stage and

:30:46.:30:49.

comes back in November and we will be discussing it. The Lib Dems,

:30:49.:30:55.

Labour, will have an opportunity to support what the British people

:30:55.:31:01.

want. Lots may have changed. But it would be a Red Line for any future

:31:01.:31:04.

coalition government question mark we are clear that it is time to

:31:04.:31:13.

coalition government question mark manifesto. What is wrong with yes or

:31:13.:31:16.

no? I cannot write the manifesto for 2015. You are asking me to project

:31:16.:31:22.

beyond that and see in advance the election result and carry out the

:31:22.:31:26.

negotiations that are yet to come. I'm just trying to work out how

:31:26.:31:31.

much... I know you are committed but she won't tell me. Let's move on.

:31:31.:31:41.

Your party has been described as nasty and blinkered. What do you

:31:41.:31:47.

feel when he says that? We are interested in helping the most

:31:47.:31:54.

vulnerable people in society. I think we're doing all that and more.

:31:54.:32:01.

And it is a shame that that language was used because we have made so

:32:01.:32:05.

much progress together. Are you getting to the end of your tether

:32:05.:32:07.

with Mr King? I do not think it getting to the end of your tether

:32:07.:32:22.

terribly helpful for any Cabinet minister to make comments like that.

:32:22.:32:24.

What I would say is that Nick Clegg minister to make comments like that.

:32:24.:32:35.

is the leader of the Lib Dems and himself. Look at these figures on

:32:35.:32:45.

party membership. Why has your party lost half of its members since Mr

:32:45.:32:50.

Cameron became leader? I would like it to be more. But I think the world

:32:50.:32:53.

has changed. People do not rush it to be more. But I think the world

:32:53.:32:58.

and join political parties as they used to. Instead they support you in

:32:58.:33:07.

different ways. If I released the number of people who give to the

:33:07.:33:12.

party in different ways, through donations for example, through

:33:12.:33:18.

friend memberships. If you include that that figure goes back up. But

:33:18.:33:23.

a time when UKIP has doubled. I that that figure goes back up. But

:33:23.:33:35.

not want to to misinterpret what I want to say. It is important to

:33:36.:33:43.

not want to to misinterpret what I members. I think we will have done

:33:43.:33:47.

election. But one statistic of interest, in the last election I had

:33:47.:33:57.

constituency. The difference was I deliver leaflets and knock on the

:33:57.:34:05.

doors. The Conservative party has changed. We now have an army of

:34:05.:34:14.

people, volunteers who are not days when you expect people to give

:34:14.:34:24.

you £25, before you accept their spoke about your most vulnerable

:34:24.:34:33.

marginal seats. This is a poll from marginal seats that you will be

:34:33.:34:45.

defending. Labour is way up, you are way down and UKIP is also up. What

:34:45.:34:48.

is happening, the Lib Dem Mo -- way down and UKIP is also up. What

:34:48.:34:59.

disillusioned Conservatives are moving to UKIP. If these figures

:34:59.:35:06.

came at an election he would lose 32 of these 40 seats. The point about

:35:06.:35:11.

any opinion poll is that it is perhaps accurate at the moment it is

:35:11.:35:17.

taken. We are now in a position where the economy has turned the

:35:17.:35:26.

corner. The right thing to do was to deal with the deficit. The people

:35:26.:35:29.

being asked about these things, deal with the deficit. The people

:35:29.:35:35.

will be interested in their own standard of living. Their mortgage

:35:35.:35:41.

payments. Why are you doing worse in the marginal seats? National League

:35:41.:35:49.

you are kind of nip and tuck with Labour. Well if that is the pick to

:35:49.:35:53.

come 2015, people will see that Labour. Well if that is the pick to

:35:53.:35:58.

government has stuck to its guns. It did not go for more borrowing and

:35:58.:36:06.

demonstrates that the last thing you want to do is give the car keys

:36:06.:36:10.

demonstrates that the last thing you to the people who crashed it in

:36:10.:36:14.

demonstrates that the last thing you first place. Lynton Crosby at this

:36:14.:36:17.

away day of Conservative MPs, his one message was to go all out and

:36:17.:36:21.

attack Ed Miliband. It is going one message was to go all out and

:36:21.:36:28.

actually not true. We are going one message was to go all out and

:36:28.:36:34.

focus on his policies, if he finally announces some. Everything we have

:36:34.:36:39.

seen so far suggests it would mean more borrowing and spending. The

:36:39.:36:42.

shadow chancellor said we would more borrowing and spending. The

:36:42.:36:53.

ruthless, just a few months later, committed by Labour. These are your

:36:53.:37:05.

figures. I will speak to you about watching the Sunday Politics. Coming

:37:05.:37:14.

up in just over 20 minutes. Alastair not-too-positive review of Damian

:37:14.:37:16.

McBride's memoirs. Until then, Thank you. Welcome to your local

:37:16.:37:34.

part of the programme. Coming up today: The sell—off of Western

:37:34.:37:41.

General Hospital is controversial but now a possible conflict of

:37:42.:37:45.

interest has angered campaigners, but will the politicians listen

:37:45.:37:56.

interest has angered campaigners, through the process. Charlotte

:37:56.:38:00.

Leslie and Thagnam Debbonaire, thank you for coming. Our top story this

:38:00.:38:05.

Sunday is the future of Western General Hospital. It will stay part

:38:05.:38:11.

of the NHS but the management will be taken over by outsiders. The

:38:11.:38:16.

of the NHS but the management will is worth millions of pounds. There

:38:16.:38:21.

are all sorts of rows going on and one is about a potential conflict of

:38:21.:38:28.

interest. The prospect of a private company taking over the management

:38:28.:38:32.

of Western General Hospital is already making waves. Because of the

:38:32.:38:37.

size of this hospital and because it has difficulty balancing its books,

:38:37.:38:45.

criteria to become a foundation trust and that means it needs to be

:38:45.:38:50.

taken over or merged with another NHL 's Hospital. Or the management

:38:50.:38:55.

needs to be given to a private company. 11 companies from the

:38:55.:38:59.

public and private sector have expressed an interest. We have

:38:59.:39:04.

discovered that to of the NHS board members who will decide who should

:39:04.:39:08.

run this hospital, contracts worth millions of pounds, have worked

:39:08.:39:14.

run this hospital, contracts worth companies hoping to win back on

:39:14.:39:19.

track. One is John Underwood. Cathy Headon has to make sure the board is

:39:19.:39:26.

looking at the hospital's future is stakeholder's views. This kind of

:39:26.:39:34.

thing should not be happening and she should stand down. We want to

:39:34.:39:37.

see this interest and a lack of she should stand down. We want to

:39:37.:39:43.

where people can be accused of Underwood and Mrs head and did not

:39:43.:39:51.

want to be interviewed and say they have declared their interests.

:39:51.:39:52.

Instead, we have been sent this have declared their interests.

:39:53.:39:57.

the other organisation involved Hunt about any conflicts of interest

:39:57.:40:20.

on his visit last week. We will Hunt about any conflicts of interest

:40:20.:40:29.

sure that there are no conflicts of interest and we will make sure we do

:40:29.:40:35.

that with transparency about the interests that people have. Under

:40:35.:40:39.

the NHS reforms there is no doubt that private companies will be

:40:39.:40:41.

providing NHS services more and that private companies will be

:40:41.:40:46.

in the future. These campaigners will not be alone in scrutinising

:40:46.:40:53.

Charlotte Leslie, let me check I have this right. We have two members

:40:53.:41:01.

of the board to decide who takes over the management of Western

:41:01.:41:04.

General Hospital and they have been paid for advice by organisations

:41:04.:41:07.

hoping to get at work. If that's the problem? It is a huge problem and it

:41:07.:41:12.

is worse than that. Cathy Headon is supposed to make sure the board

:41:13.:41:16.

is worse than that. Cathy Headon is independent but she is working as a

:41:16.:41:19.

consultant for one of the companies bidding. I think any normal person

:41:19.:41:25.

will say that that is unacceptable and this is after a time when we

:41:25.:41:29.

have seen awful things going on and this is after a time when we

:41:29.:41:34.

the NHS and a lack of transparency. accountability over the last decade

:41:34.:41:40.

and at the time when we need to accountability over the last decade

:41:40.:41:41.

and at the time when we need to reassure the public that things

:41:41.:41:44.

and at the time when we need to changing, I find it incredible that

:41:44.:41:47.

transparent, everybody knows about it. Jeremy Hunt says he is happy

:41:47.:41:54.

decisions, it those individuals would not be allowed to make those

:41:55.:42:01.

decisions. They would be asked to leave the room. Secondly, this is

:42:01.:42:08.

obviously going to undermine public confidence in the decision. Whatever

:42:08.:42:09.

confidence in it. I think it is confidence in the decision. Whatever

:42:09.:42:17.

massive error of judgement and I think if the individuals understood

:42:17.:42:21.

how important is, they would remove themselves from that decision.

:42:21.:42:25.

Thagnam Debbonaire? Charlotte Leslie says it is an error of judgement by

:42:25.:42:30.

the Health Minister is waving it extraordinary that this has happened

:42:30.:42:37.

and I would have a problem at work if I made a similar decision. It is

:42:37.:42:46.

Charlotte, it is your party who voted through these reforms and

:42:46.:42:51.

Charlotte, it is your party who is the Liberal Democrats who are

:42:51.:42:53.

saying that they helped them as well. It is all very well for you to

:42:53.:43:01.

sit here and say Jeremy Hunt is wrong. Your party voted for this.

:43:01.:43:06.

This is a continuation of... I'm sorry, if you look at the lack of

:43:06.:43:09.

accountability in the NHS which sorry, if you look at the lack of

:43:09.:43:15.

killed hundreds of people... That is an outrageous thing to say. Are

:43:15.:43:21.

killed hundreds of people... That is against this because you are against

:43:21.:43:27.

the privatisation of the NHS? Labour used the private sector to bring

:43:27.:43:32.

waiting lists down in specific circumstances. This is entirely

:43:32.:43:36.

different and is opening up the entire NHS to privatisation. This is

:43:36.:43:41.

different and Charlotte Leslie knows it. Don't shake your head, your

:43:41.:43:45.

secretary of State for help has it. Don't shake your head, your

:43:45.:43:51.

it is OK for those two people to sit Charlotte Leslie, can't MPs act

:43:51.:43:56.

it is OK for those two people to sit consultants for companies question

:43:56.:44:03.

declared. What is the difference? There is no doubt that there are

:44:03.:44:11.

massive issues in it. There is corruption in the NHS that goes

:44:11.:44:21.

massive issues in it. There is have said that I have independent

:44:21.:44:21.

thoughts and I don't agree with have said that I have independent

:44:21.:44:29.

secretary on this. I have called for David Nicholson to go because he has

:44:29.:44:37.

connections. It is a disastrous State of affairs and there is an

:44:37.:44:43.

entire cultural change we need. I think calling it party politics

:44:43.:44:48.

entire cultural change we need. I unhelpful here. How would you like

:44:48.:44:53.

family? Would you call it squeamish? prioritise. How would you feel?

:44:53.:45:06.

family? Would you call it squeamish? heard from the Francis Cock Crow

:45:06.:45:14.

review —— Francis review. The Labour leader Ed Miliband is rallying the

:45:14.:45:19.

troops at the party conference this coming week. All the West Country's

:45:19.:45:25.

Labour MPs are expected to be there, all two of them. I went to meet

:45:25.:45:31.

Labour MPs are expected to be there, and asked him how he proposed to win

:45:31.:45:34.

over the voters. We have confidence in tackling the cost of living

:45:34.:45:38.

crisis. Everything from ending the Bedroom Tax to making a difference

:45:38.:45:40.

to people's wages. Right across Bedroom Tax to making a difference

:45:40.:45:45.

board, we will show with confidence how we can make a difference to

:45:45.:45:49.

board, we will show with confidence is the biggest issues in Britain,

:45:49.:45:52.

which is the cost of living problem. Wages are depressing in this country

:45:52.:45:56.

and one of the reasons is Labour's open doors policy on immigration

:45:57.:46:01.

which has allowed millions of people in. I think immigration is an issue

:46:01.:46:06.

and we will be talking about that and how we can stop the race. Under

:46:07.:46:12.

a Labour government, I will not and how we can stop the race. Under

:46:12.:46:24.

4000 people are behind with rent because of the spare room policy.

:46:24.:46:29.

The council is considering whether they should be evicted or not. That

:46:29.:46:30.

is a matter for the council but they should be evicted or not. That

:46:30.:46:37.

can say we will end the Bedroom they should be evicted or not. That

:46:37.:46:39.

because I think it is wrong, and unfair, and it is not working as you

:46:39.:46:44.

have showed. We will close the loopholes with things like the tax

:46:44.:46:52.

cut for hedge funds. I do not want to see people evicted because of the

:46:52.:46:57.

Bedroom Tax but we are serving notice that we will end this. If you

:46:57.:47:02.

wanted to rent a room in Swindon, you will have to decide how an hammy

:47:02.:47:08.

bedrooms you can afford. Why does benefits? We are talking about

:47:08.:47:16.

people who are often disabled so we difficult circumstances. The other

:47:17.:47:24.

problem is that they are not able to go anywhere. I have met the family

:47:24.:47:29.

today who were hit by the Bedroom Tax. The daughter has cancer and a

:47:29.:47:36.

husband and wife have disabilities. The Bedroom Tax is unfair but it

:47:36.:47:40.

does not work as a policy. Councils all around the country are saying

:47:40.:47:41.

this. A councillor from Swindon all around the country are saying

:47:41.:47:47.

said that she would like you to all around the country are saying

:47:47.:47:51.

less austere and more down to earth, perhaps more academic. You always

:47:51.:47:56.

get advice as a leader and you always listen to the advice that I

:47:56.:48:01.

know how I want to lead, which is to show the British people how to

:48:01.:48:06.

tackle the issues they are facing. Most particularly, the cost of

:48:06.:48:10.

living crisis. I think what we will see from Labour this week is how we

:48:10.:48:14.

are going to do it, not just on see from Labour this week is how we

:48:14.:48:20.

you going to lighten up? I am going Bedroom Tax but other issues. Are

:48:20.:48:25.

you going to lighten up? I am going to do it my way. That is the most

:48:25.:48:28.

important winning any job, to do it your way. Thank you very much. This

:48:28.:48:32.

year's conference is being held against a backdrop of falling party

:48:32.:48:38.

membership. 50 years ago millions of people paid their party subs but

:48:38.:48:44.

these days, the numbers have fallen to record lows was not what has

:48:44.:48:49.

these days, the numbers have fallen wrong? Joining us is a political

:48:49.:48:53.

expert from Bristol University and a does it matter that people do not

:48:53.:49:02.

belong to political parties any more? Yes. It is an important part

:49:02.:49:07.

of getting across what society wants and is an opportunity for people to

:49:07.:49:14.

participate. We have seen the rate of participation declining over

:49:14.:49:21.

participate. We have seen the rate last 50 years. Give us an idea of

:49:21.:49:25.

the scale of that decline. In Stroud there were over three and a half

:49:25.:49:31.

thousand members in 1957. Taunton had 2000 members of the Labour Party

:49:31.:49:38.

in 1957. 50 years later, there are barely 150 members in Taunton. A

:49:38.:49:49.

numbers. Labour is not alone and there are similar declines in the

:49:49.:49:54.

Conservatives and in the Liberal Democrats. There are exceptions

:49:54.:49:57.

Conservatives and in the Liberal the rules, aren't there? The Greens

:49:57.:49:59.

are doing rather well, are they the rules, aren't there? The Greens

:49:59.:50:04.

Yes. We have a rapidly increasing membership and I think that is

:50:04.:50:12.

participation. Joining the Green Party means you can debate our

:50:13.:50:15.

policies and decide policies at Party means you can debate our

:50:15.:50:20.

conference. The other parties have lost members because the elites

:50:20.:50:25.

conference. The other parties have deciding on things. Letters bring in

:50:25.:50:29.

the other guests and ask them. At one time, there were 3 million

:50:29.:50:35.

Conservative members and now there are only 130 or something like

:50:35.:50:42.

is and I think it is a change in the way people see politics. People

:50:42.:50:46.

is and I think it is a change in the far more differential. As the three

:50:46.:50:49.

main parties scramble onto the centre ground, people say the bar

:50:49.:50:55.

less differences between them and it becomes more about identity. As

:50:55.:50:59.

less differences between them and it quality of living has gone up and

:50:59.:51:05.

struggling, politics becomes less a part of people's lives and people

:51:05.:51:12.

are less interested in it. Labour is less for the working class now? I

:51:12.:51:19.

think it has a different way of doing things. I think a lot of

:51:19.:51:24.

people in the past who joins the little parties are doing things

:51:24.:51:29.

people in the past who joins the different way. People are doing

:51:29.:51:33.

things that embody their Labour values but they do join us when

:51:33.:51:36.

things that embody their Labour are campaigning. We have Labour

:51:36.:51:43.

governors, but also in Bristol West, our membership is running

:51:43.:51:49.

pretty strong. This argument there is a wider participation and you

:51:49.:51:56.

don't have to belong to participate. traditional mass party where people

:51:56.:52:01.

are signing up and it is trying traditional mass party where people

:52:01.:52:07.

run a Labour's supporter modelled. But this has not generated the

:52:07.:52:14.

levels of participation they had hoped for when they launched two

:52:14.:52:20.

years ago. Going back 50 years ago, people join the Young Conservatives

:52:20.:52:28.

to prove points perhaps? I think people are fed up with mainstream

:52:28.:52:30.

politics. They say, you are all people are fed up with mainstream

:52:30.:52:38.

same and they feel out of touch people are fed up with mainstream

:52:38.:52:41.

politicians. They say, why should we get involved with you? Your members

:52:41.:52:46.

decide your policies but when Labour tried that, they're what all sorts

:52:46.:52:48.

of problems. That was some time tried that, they're what all sorts

:52:48.:53:00.

In the Labour Party, it is all about fairness for people in our country.

:53:00.:53:06.

There are different ways of looking at things and we are all part of the

:53:06.:53:12.

consultation over the last six months. I have no doubt it will

:53:12.:53:18.

consultation over the last six conference. One of the few political

:53:18.:53:20.

parties going into the conference with a swing in their step is UKIP.

:53:20.:53:27.

After success in the local elections in May, they are hoping to give

:53:27.:53:31.

After success in the local elections other parties a good kicking again

:53:31.:53:31.

in the European elections. They other parties a good kicking again

:53:31.:53:36.

not far away. Our political editor was at their conference. Here at

:53:36.:53:40.

Westminster central hall, the mood has been absolutely brilliant. They

:53:40.:53:44.

have picked up councils across the country, in Gloucestershire, Wilts

:53:44.:53:49.

and Dorset. They have more members people have joined the party. Across

:53:49.:53:54.

the country, the total is 30000 people have joined the party. Across

:53:54.:54:02.

rising. That will bring them foot soldiers in elections to come and

:54:02.:54:06.

that is important to the party as noticeable is the greater range

:54:06.:54:12.

that is important to the party as people that have joined. There are a

:54:12.:54:14.

lots more young people and that people that have joined. There are a

:54:14.:54:20.

help them enormously when they are fighting the election campaign.

:54:20.:54:28.

help them enormously when they are scrutiny of UKIP as they go into the

:54:28.:54:29.

next elections. With me is a member of the European Parliament for the

:54:30.:54:33.

south—west. Let me start on some of your policies because people say

:54:33.:54:39.

that have not been many scrutiny is so far. You pledged to cut public

:54:39.:54:43.

spending to 1997 levels but have spent more on public defence. That

:54:43.:54:49.

is curious. We went into the last election with a manifesto that was

:54:49.:54:58.

526 pages long and was longer than together. What would you cut? We

:54:58.:55:06.

have made it clear that we would leave the European union. That would

:55:06.:55:20.

save £60 million a day and reduce foreign aid. Verbally, EU regulation

:55:20.:55:31.

costs of economy 10% of GDP. That dividend could be spent in various

:55:31.:55:37.

properly have to be spent on deficit reduction. You also talked about 2

:55:37.:55:46.

million less public service workers. That was the 2010 manifesto. That

:55:46.:55:49.

was nearly four years ago. That That was the 2010 manifesto. That

:55:49.:55:58.

reviewed. No single other political party have yet published their

:55:58.:56:07.

reviewed. No single other political politically incorrect and you revel

:56:07.:56:11.

in that. One of your members use the word slut. Are you comfortable with

:56:11.:56:16.

that? I am not going to criticise colleagues but I do not know what he

:56:16.:56:22.

said, when he said it or what the context was. We are a party that

:56:22.:56:28.

basically wants to take back our democracy back from Brussels, and

:56:28.:56:34.

take back our seat on the World Trade Organisation. Lovely, thank

:56:34.:56:40.

you. We will hear plenty more about UKIP in the days to come. Thank

:56:40.:56:45.

you. We will hear plenty more about You were shaking your head through

:56:45.:56:49.

all of that but they have done tremendously well and the European

:56:49.:56:54.

elections are looking good for them. They get a lot of publicity birds

:56:54.:56:58.

they do not seem to get anyone elected. The European elections

:56:58.:57:04.

they do not seem to get anyone looking good. It is good news as far

:57:04.:57:07.

as I'm concerned. If you're going to bounce this of UKIP then that will

:57:08.:57:14.

be even better for the Green Party. If you want to explain why UKIP

:57:14.:57:19.

be even better for the Green Party. doing well, I think it is about

:57:19.:57:23.

be even better for the Green Party. live in this austere period of time

:57:23.:57:26.

and I think they are thriving on that. Why you not doing that? We're

:57:26.:57:33.

not using dirty tactics. You are worrying us about climate change and

:57:33.:57:39.

the public imagination in that way the public imagination in that way

:57:39.:57:44.

question might that is not what the public imagination in that way

:57:44.:57:47.

are trying to do. UKIP deliberately create hate figures and a trade—off

:57:47.:57:50.

against that. We are trying to look towards a more positive future and

:57:50.:57:56.

that is completely different. It is nice to have you on the programme,

:57:56.:58:01.

thank you. It is now time to spin through the political stories in 60

:58:01.:58:05.

Seconds. Plans are being made across the West ahead of a national fire

:58:05.:58:11.

strike next week. Stations are being closed for a few hours in a row

:58:11.:58:16.

strike next week. Stations are being pensions. There are more strikes

:58:16.:58:19.

planned in October, this time by teachers who are angry about this

:58:19.:58:34.

message is, why are you not in the classroom helping students to learn?

:58:34.:58:36.

The Severn estuary has a scheme classroom helping students to learn?

:58:36.:58:51.

build an energy scheme across it. First Great Western will be running

:58:51.:58:56.

most of our region's trains for another three years. The government

:58:56.:58:58.

is negotiating with the company another three years. The government

:58:58.:59:04.

passengers are not getting a good deal. Well, that was the week just

:59:04.:59:14.

teacher's protest and the threatened strikes? I understand why teachers

:59:14.:59:16.

are fed up with Michael Gove. I strikes? I understand why teachers

:59:16.:59:23.

governor for a school and we have building programmes that have been

:59:23.:59:31.

Michael Gove is doing to education is justified. That is what parents

:59:31.:59:36.

have said to me. I think Michael Gove is doing some important things.

:59:36.:59:42.

The gap between rich and poor at school is unacceptable and there has

:59:42.:59:47.

been a tendency to accept that if you are poor kid in a poor school

:59:47.:59:52.

then you do not do subjects like physics and maths. He is turning

:59:52.:59:57.

that around but for teachers, any change is difficult and I do not

:59:57.:00:01.

think strike action is right. Any change is difficult. Teachers have a

:00:02.:00:05.

hard time. Argue very much indeed. That is all we have time for. It has

:00:05.:00:11.

flown past. A big thank you to our guests, Thagnam Debbonaire and

:00:11.:00:15.

Charlotte Leslie. If you want to get in touch with your stories or ideas,

:00:15.:00:19.

my youth. The halcyon days of the 2000s, when the warring Blairite and

:00:19.:00:41.

Brownite tribes fought over who should run the Labour Party. Gordon

:00:41.:00:44.

Brown's chief spin doctor Damian should run the Labour Party. Gordon

:00:44.:00:46.

Brown's chief spin doctor Damian McBride - McPoison, or worse, to his

:00:46.:00:48.

enemies - has published his memoirs, timed for maximum impact in the

:00:48.:00:57.

enemies - has published his memoirs, of Labour's Conference. They detail

:00:57.:00:58.

how Mr McBride briefed against colleagues, brought down Cabinet

:00:59.:01:02.

Ministers, that is - and fought tooth and nail to promote the man he

:01:02.:01:06.

called "the greatest man he ever met" - Gordon Brown. Joining us

:01:06.:01:13.

called "the greatest man he ever is Tony Blair's former Director

:01:13.:01:14.

called "the greatest man he ever Communications, Alastair Campbell.

:01:14.:01:20.

You are angry about what he has Communications, Alastair Campbell.

:01:20.:01:28.

in this book. Why is that. It is partly the fact that he has done it

:01:28.:01:35.

in a way that will be -- will be damaging to the Labour Party at

:01:35.:01:38.

in a way that will be -- will be time. But also because of the lies

:01:38.:01:41.

that he told at the time that he now communications and trying to hold

:01:41.:01:51.

the thing together, build the team. There was also Charlie Whelan and

:01:51.:01:58.

others. And that job was made more difficult than it should have been.

:01:58.:02:03.

I used to challenge Gordon Brown about it. And there came a stage

:02:03.:02:07.

where I said if Whelan does not about it. And there came a stage

:02:07.:02:15.

I will go. And when Damian McBride was on the scene I was clear that I

:02:15.:02:20.

was not going to have anything to do with him. Because of what he is

:02:20.:02:26.

was not going to have anything to do admitting to, I think they played

:02:26.:02:29.

quite a significant part in pushing Labour out of power. Because the

:02:29.:02:34.

public were being fed by them, this public were being fed by them, this

:02:35.:02:40.

narrative, the whole time. That Blair was useless, Charles Clarke

:02:40.:02:47.

was useless. And I think that we where the government and had very

:02:48.:02:51.

good ministers trying to do big things for the country. I said this

:02:51.:02:58.

morning it was like being a foot tall team were on the pitch you

:02:58.:03:04.

morning it was like being a foot your own players kicking the star

:03:04.:03:07.

players. That is why I am angry about it because I think they helped

:03:07.:03:10.

usher in a conservative government. If we had all stuck together I think

:03:10.:03:17.

did not win the last election, that is a reasonable point. But surely

:03:17.:03:25.

undermine Tony Blair and to promote their man, Gordon Brown. It is

:03:25.:03:30.

inconceivable then that Gordon Brown did not know about it. Well in spite

:03:30.:03:39.

reasonably good relationship with Gordon Brown. I used to challenge

:03:39.:03:43.

him a lot about what Whelan was doing. He would always say, I will

:03:43.:03:51.

sort it out. Another thing that annoys me is this sense put forward

:03:51.:03:57.

by the right wing media that there was this sense of equivalence.

:03:57.:04:03.

People like Steve who I have known for years, there is not a single

:04:03.:04:10.

journalist with the very occasional exception where I lost my temper,

:04:10.:04:14.

who would honestly be able to tell you that I ever breathed against

:04:14.:04:20.

ministers. That was my golden rule. People say you were the forerunner.

:04:20.:04:28.

I know it was not the case. One People say you were the forerunner.

:04:28.:04:41.

the reasons why I do despise what they did, the whole spin thing which

:04:41.:04:52.

associated with, once I wrote a actually within the government,

:04:53.:05:02.

associated with, once I wrote a had a principle of maximum openness

:05:03.:05:03.

and trust. Anyone could come to had a principle of maximum openness

:05:03.:05:08.

morning meetings on condition that what was discussed their state as

:05:08.:05:14.

part of the team. I had to say to Gordon Brown, your people are not

:05:14.:05:16.

coming. Because I knew where it Gordon Brown, your people are not

:05:16.:05:22.

coming from. Did you know that the time but Charles Clarke and others

:05:22.:05:27.

were effectively being destroyed from within the Labour government? I

:05:27.:05:31.

certainly knew that they thought that. I did know journalists telling

:05:31.:05:39.

me that that was what was happening. Ultimately, this is why I never

:05:39.:05:50.

me that that was what was happening. leaders, it is ultimately up to

:05:50.:05:57.

me that that was what was happening. litre. Possibly in a different age

:05:57.:06:01.

Gordon Brown would have been an amazing Prime Minister. He was a

:06:01.:06:04.

great chancellor. But he had a flaw, this need for truly horrible

:06:04.:06:11.

people to be around him doing truly horrible things in politics and

:06:11.:06:14.

giving him and the Labour Party horrible things in politics and

:06:14.:06:18.

politics a bad name. That is why I'm still angry about Damian McBride.

:06:18.:06:28.

What do you make of it? The current administration is a contrast. We

:06:29.:06:32.

have rival factions occupying the same offices but they still get

:06:32.:06:38.

have rival factions occupying the The only time they have a row is

:06:38.:06:41.

when something really big happens. But with that one party in Downing

:06:41.:06:44.

Street there was fighting the whole time. Did Ed Balls know about this.

:06:45.:06:50.

I would assume so. I spoke with time. Did Ed Balls know about this.

:06:50.:07:03.

about it at the time. He told me at the time that he had spoken about it

:07:03.:07:13.

with Gordon Brown. So I think there was a concern from within that camp

:07:13.:07:18.

about some of these activities at equivalence, in life you expect

:07:18.:07:28.

about some of these activities at see that there is full on both

:07:28.:07:28.

sides. But I do not buy it in this see that there is full on both

:07:28.:07:34.

case. If you look at the testimonies see that there is full on both

:07:34.:07:37.

over the years, what you can surmise about the character of Gordon Brown

:07:37.:07:42.

and of Tony Blair, it was ultimately driven by Gordon Brown and the

:07:42.:07:48.

people around him. The Blairites did things but they did then by way

:07:48.:07:52.

people around him. The Blairites did retaliation rather than initiation.

:07:52.:07:56.

The one-time when I did lose it retaliation rather than initiation.

:07:56.:08:01.

the whole psychological force thing. That came at the end of a period

:08:01.:08:03.

when we were relentlessly being That came at the end of a period

:08:03.:08:09.

in by Charlie Whelan and his gang of journalists. I would go along to

:08:09.:08:12.

colleagues would be there and I journalists. I would go along to

:08:12.:08:20.

had to sit there and not hit back. Saying I cannot believe Gordon Brown

:08:20.:08:25.

would have anything to do with this. You get to the stage where your

:08:25.:08:29.

would have anything to do with this. credibility is on the line. Coming

:08:29.:08:29.

promotion of alcohol awareness. credibility is on the line. Coming

:08:29.:08:40.

before that the Labour Party, you never had to deal with this in

:08:40.:08:44.

opposition because you were pretty far ahead in the polls by midterm.

:08:44.:08:48.

This time that is not the case. far ahead in the polls by midterm.

:08:48.:08:57.

is surprisingly narrow. What advice would you give to Ed Miliband? To

:08:57.:09:04.

keep his head out side of this bubble but it's all about him. And

:09:04.:09:09.

to use this week to really speak to the British people about himself,

:09:09.:09:16.

particularly the kind of policy agenda he is shaping for the future.

:09:16.:09:23.

And start to heart -- start to hit the Tories hard. They're not pop,

:09:23.:09:28.

they're not competent. They're screwing up the health service.

:09:28.:09:34.

they're not competent. They're yet they are neck and neck. I would

:09:34.:09:36.

say that the whole Shadow Cabinet understand that you win elections by

:09:36.:09:43.

wanting to win elections every minute of every day. There is too

:09:43.:09:50.

much complacency. A small lead now you have to grow that. You do that

:09:50.:09:55.

with energy and conviction and policy. Tony Blair had a huge pole

:09:55.:10:04.

bead in the run-up to 1997. We were winning seat where we had not even

:10:04.:10:11.

campaigned and he was saying, why celebrate because we have not won

:10:11.:10:13.

yet. You are promoting your alcohol celebrate because we have not won

:10:13.:10:17.

yet. You are promoting your alcohol awareness campaign. Perhaps the

:10:17.:10:19.

party conference is not the best place to do that! That is one reason

:10:19.:10:28.

why I am doing that. I'm hosting probably the only alcohol free

:10:28.:10:34.

reception of the week! There is nothing worse than a convert, I

:10:34.:10:42.

reception of the week! There is that. But I travel a lot. I travel

:10:42.:10:47.

around the world and Britain has a something we should be ashamed of.

:10:47.:10:57.

Why is that, is it cultural? I think it is historical. But I dig David

:10:57.:11:04.

Cameron was right to go for minimum unit pricing and wrong to do a

:11:04.:11:16.

reversal. 6% of alcoholics get treatment. I expect that drugs are a

:11:17.:11:19.

problem but we spent £2 billion treatment. I expect that drugs are a

:11:19.:11:26.

100,000 problem drug takers and treatment. I expect that drugs are a

:11:26.:11:28.

million on 1.6 million problem have written this book about a young

:11:28.:11:41.

million on 1.6 million problem alcoholic, a teenager. And it is in

:11:41.:11:45.

the first person. People could think you are writing about yourself.

:11:45.:11:49.

did you choose a teenage girl? Well did you choose a teenage girl? Well

:11:49.:11:56.

partly, I dedicated this to the Southampton. He told me when he

:11:56.:12:06.

started his career that his patience was split nine to one, men to women

:12:06.:12:13.

and it is now 50 - 50. They're getting younger and younger. One

:12:13.:12:21.

doctor looking after me said I will take you around this hospital and

:12:21.:12:27.

the problems of alcohol are in every single ward. Not just accident and

:12:27.:12:33.

emergency. I watched the foot all, advertisements for gambling and

:12:34.:12:41.

advertising. How have we allowed this to happen, ? We are just awash

:12:41.:12:52.

with it. What we did I think on Availability and price either too

:12:52.:12:59.

means by which you can bring this down. And the country that has had

:12:59.:13:05.

the biggest success on this is Russia, bizarrely. Thank you very

:13:05.:13:17.

much for that. That's all for today. Thanks to all our guests. I'll be

:13:17.:13:23.

with live coverage of Labour Party Conference, including the speech

:13:23.:13:26.

from the man who wants to be the next Chancellor, Ed Balls. Remember

:13:26.:13:27.

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