29/09/2013 Sunday Politics West

do with the lack of talent, it is Sunday Politics. David Cameron

house-buyers with deposits. Is he merely stoking a new house price

bubble? As Tory activist 's gather in Manchester, we will have the

results of our exclusive survey in Manchester, we will have the

Conservative councillors. I will be William Hague. And Ed Miliband made

headlines with his pledge to freeze energy prices for 20 months after

headlines with his pledge to freeze the next election. But does the

headlines with his pledge to freeze policy really stack up? Shadow

In the West: A battle on the home The government wants to recruit

thousands of part time soldiers Underground should be made illegal,

With me are a trio of top political commentators. All three will be

tweeting their thoughts, or in some cases just their thought through the

show, using the hashtag #bbcsp. cases just their thought through the

Conservative Party conference gets afternoon. We have already been

bombarded with a series of policy announcements, a tax break for

married couples of up to £200 per year, more money on life extending

cancer treatments and, last night, the news that the second stage of

the Chancellor's Help To Buy scheme brought forward from the start of

next year. David Cameron says it is all about helping hard-working

people. Right now, you can't get, 95% mortgage. That means a typical

family with two people earning 20,000, 25,000, they are being

asked, to buy an average house, 20,000, 25,000, they are being

mortgage payment, but they can't get the mortgage. They can't buy their

flat or house. As Prime Minister, I'm not going to stand back while

people's aspirations to get on the housing ladder, to own their own

flat or home, is being trashed. housing ladder, to own their own

is why we need to act. A predictable attempt by party leadership to

kick-start the conference with eye-catching policies. The polls

show a big bounce for Ed Miliband and the Labour Party, with decent

numbers for UKIP. What do party councillors as they travel to their

For the Conservatives this weekend, conference, and as a scene setter we

asked ComRes to survey councillors are Finland and Wales. Councillors

asked ComRes to survey councillors like Tom, packing for conference at

home in Wellingborough. Immigration is an issue for him. He thinks there

are pros and cons. But we found is an issue for him. He thinks there

immigration has had a negative reflects into this wider issue of

our relationship with Europe. People possible influx of ovarian and

Romania emigrants. Obviously the issue of Europe is very big. --

Ukrainian. His colleagues in Corby are worried about the rise of the UK

Independence Party. In our survey, nearly a quarter of Conservative

councillors thought that their party should make a pact with UKIP. The

concern is, yes, will they take If that happens, maybe we don't

concern is, yes, will they take back in. Maybe a partnership is

concern is, yes, will they take way to go. It depends what they

concern is, yes, will they take talking about them. A pact? Depends

what they say, anything is possible. What would you like to see? Ideally,

from my point of view, a national pact. David Cameron arrived in

Manchester last night. Around the same time as these activists from

London. I broke the news to them that in our survey just 26% of Tory

councillors think that the prime ministers in touch with the lives of

ordinary people. The same at all Conservatives, you don't judge

people by their background. It's not where they come from, it is where

they are going to. It is not a where they come from, it is where

problem that he is a bit on the where they come from, it is where

side? Cull you might describe him like that, I would not use those

words. Explain your T-shirt, it like that, I would not use those

phrase that a senior Cameron person is alleged to have used about you?

It is a humorous way of letting is alleged to have used about you?

party now that we are here to say important. We are not going away any

time soon. A sentiment you will important. We are not going away any

a lot at this conference, because just 22% of councillors in our

survey said that David Cameron was any good at listening to the people

that work hard for his party. That was Adam. Joining me now from the

Conservative Party conference in William Hague. Welcome to the Sunday

Politics. Good morning. Over one in five Tory councillors in our survey

support a pact with UKIP at the five Tory councillors in our survey

election. Why do you think that five Tory councillors in our survey

If it is one in five, it means a large majority did not want a pact

with UKIP at the next election. large majority did not want a pact

have noticed that UKIP, in local elections, has been receiving votes,

some of which would otherwise have been for the Conservatives. I think

we have to make sure that people election they are choosing between a

Conservative and Labour Government, as David Cameron as Prime Minister

or Ed Miliband. If people want to get a referendum on Europe, the

or Ed Miliband. If people want to way to do that is to have David

Cameron as Prime Minister. I think a Cameron as Prime Minister. I think a

general election is different from the local government perspective. It

is pretty unusual, some might say unprecedented, for a large chunk of

one of the big parties in this country to want to go into coalition

one of the big parties in this with a smaller party before an

happened? Looking at your survey, three times as many didn't want

happened? Looking at your survey, with statistics, you can highlight

it whichever way around you want to. The point is, we are not having

pacts with other parties, electoral pacts with other parties. You rule

it out? That is not going to happen. What we do want is to have a pact

it out? That is not going to happen. with the voters, if you like, as we

have often done in the Conservative Party. We have won over the voters

of other parties to support our policies and Prime Minister. That is

important with those people that say important with those people that say

they want to vote for UKIP. By default, they would produce a Labour

government in the exact opposite of many of the things they intend,

government in the exact opposite of Conservative and decide to vote

government in the exact opposite of UKIP instead in a general election.

That could help to produce a Labour government. The chairman of the

That could help to produce a Labour committee, the elected voice of

Conservative backbenchers, he says your party should spell out what had

once back from the European Union before next year's European actions.

Do you agree? We will be spelling out some things in the European

elections. I will be talking about this later on today. For instance,

European treaties the concept of ever closer union, a concept that in

believed in. We would like that ever closer union, a concept that in

consequences that would flow from that. We will be setting out the

examples and principles of the changes we want to say. Certainly

over the next year, not only before the European actions but the general

election, if you are saying, let have the exact list of anything

election, if you are saying, let negotiate, that is difficult because

there will be a negotiation of a new deal in Europe if David Cameron

there will be a negotiation of a new election. To some extent, that has

to be negotiated. Only 11% of your own councillors feel that people in

their area think that George Osborne is in touch with ordinary people.

is not for me to explain why people say what they say in surveys. The

important thing is what we are delivering for the country. What

George Osborne is delivering his renewed economic growth. 1.4 million

new jobs in the private sector, renewed economic growth. 1.4 million

for hard-working people, by reducing the tax for 25 million of them.

for hard-working people, by reducing Help To Buy scheme that we are

highlighting today. That is what really matters to people, actually,

I think you will find. Let's talk about helping ordinary people. Ed

Miliband is guilty freeze energy prices. What are you going to do

about energy prices, we already asked energy companies to put people

on their lowest tariffs. This has not been amended. -- implemented.

Why not? This is going to happen within this government. It is going

to happen within this government when the... Why hasn't it happened

now? People are suffering now from rising energy prices. It has not

happened because my colleagues have been implimenting it. In the case of

Ed Miliband's policy, if you are asking why it has not yet happened

under this Government, it didn't even survive a few our's scrutiny in

opposition. In a few hours he had to concede that if there was a big

change in oil prices then the policy would not work. The trouble is,

change in oil prices then the policy would dry up some of the investment

in the energy industry. I don't think it is a credible promise.

in the energy industry. I don't a party that presided over council

tax bills doubling in the next a party that presided over council

tax bills doubling in the next government, -- last government,

tax bills doubling in the next not very credible. Why is George

Osborne going against the European Well, we don't want to see the

European treaties used in a way Well, we don't want to see the

they should not be used. It's not necessarily over this particular

issue. It is over the power that the European Union has over our lives

and over this country. Can the bankers look after themselves? We

should be able to decide those things in our own country. We have

never signed up to such matters things in our own country. We have

European institutions. If you allow one thing that wasn't meant to be

decided to be decided, you find one thing that wasn't meant to be

there are another ten or 20 things that affect many other people. We

are very vigilant about what we that affect many other people. We

competence creep, with the European Union taking more powers than it was

meant to have. That is one of the referendum, do want a new deal in

Europe. That is what we intend to institution, ICAP, fined for fixing

the LIBOR rates. The founder of institution, ICAP, fined for fixing

company has donated £5 million to your party. Shouldn't you give it

back? Aren't you ashamed to accept that money? He has donated his own

Which he made out of ICAP. As people have to other parties, people are

free to do that and they should have to other parties, people are

free to do that. I am not aware have to other parties, people are

any plan for that to be repaid. Because you can't afford to. Let's

recap this. We have seen Tory MPs parrot propaganda lines from the

energy companies this week. We have the Chancellor going to court to

fight for unlimited banker bonuses. We have a top Tory donor the centre

fight for unlimited banker bonuses. of yet another city scandal. Ed

Miliband is right when he says you lot are on the side of the vested

interests so the rich and powerful, isn't he? Well, again, look at the

record. I just did! 1.4 million extra jobs in the private sector, 25

million people with a tax cut, a Help To Buy scheme which is going to

help so many people, particularly young people have the house that

future. Council tax bills held down, welfare reform so that it pays to

work. Actually, this is a government achieving things for hard-working

While President Laugharne he's talking about peace, the Iranians

weapons programme. -- is talking. It would be hard to say from week

to week whether it is speeding up continuing with it. That is why

to week whether it is speeding up say the new message - the new words

- from Iranian leadership are very welcome. I said that to the Foreign

Minister in New York over the last few days but it is the actions that

will count. At the moment, the nuclear programme continues. We

negotiations on that and that will be a very important test as to

whether actions will match the words. When will we know it if we

are being strung along? He has strung as a long in the past as

are being strung along? He has nuclear weapons negotiator. When

will we know if he is not just doing that again? Over the next

will we know if he is not just weeks, it will be a very important

time. He has said there should be more transparency over the Iranian

transparent in many regards at the moment. The atomic agency is asking

for information that is not being given. One test is, in the coming

information? The information that the international of authority is

asking for about their nuclear programme. We will be able to form

a view of this in the coming weeks or months. It is important we test

their new willingness to talk to us important to find out whether they

asking, is the nuclear programme really continuing? Are they really

negotiations and offer something Speaking of being strung along,

what sanctions would President Assad face if, in six months - the

Year, Syria still has a chemical weapons arsenal. In the resolution

we voted through the UN Security Council on Friday night, is the

Council will take measures under Chapter seven of the UN Charter

Council will take measures under the event of non-compliance. Does

that allow full force? I did not catch that. Does that allow for

Security Council resolution about Iraq, which most people concluded

in not allow full force. It does not specify that. It talks about

terms seven of the charter. That is a message of the whole UN Security

Council that there will be measures - there will be consequences - if

the Assad regime does not comply. has a big commitment. I have spent

counterpart over the last week. Russia has said, this is something

you will have to do. We will work with Russia and others very closely

to check there is compliance will this resolution. Given the progress

that has been made, you must be very glad that the British House of

Commons stopped your rash to force against Syria. -- rush. The reason

credible threat of military action. has happened is because there was a

credible threat of military action. President Obama did not get it

through Congress. They have not President Obama did not get it

the vote in Congress. There is no other explanation as to why the

policy changed. It was because there was a debate about military

action in the West that the policy changed on theirs. That is why it

changed. We were not in a rush for military action. The boat put to

the House of Commons was to have inspectors reported. It was before

Russian and Syrian policy changed. We need to make sure that works

Russian and Syrian policy changed. practice. Thank you. What do you

make about this rushing forward with the help to buy scheme which

was meant to start next year - coming forward mad to the next

couple of weeks? I think it is a Government having an interest in

mortgage lending. -- there is a fundamental problem. It should have

been set much lower to exclude London and the South East where

houses are dramatically overvalued. Many economists think freezing

energy prices is a terrible policy. These policies can be popular. If

you have no chance of getting a deposit, the Government will make

Osborne tried every single lever. It looked like he could not do

anything to get the economy moving. It is moving. They have pulled it

forward and there are signs it is recovering. The reason why they

forward and there are signs it is doing this is they want to show

this week at the conference there are real sort of understandable

issues you can explain very simply that really up going to improve

people's lives. The Conservatives Miliband's speech last week. The

nuts. Much more cautious and -- language about the energy price

freeze. They are nervous that Ed Miliband may be touching a nerve on

that one. What we will get this week, I suggest, his Tory populism

to counter Miliband populism. I think we will see that and it will

be a mistake. As long as it is think we will see that and it will

about The Picture, they are on relatively strong ground. When the

political conversation changes to more fiddly things, particularities

standards, things that are some more fiddly things, particularities

below that picture, I do not think they can win a bidding war with

below that picture, I do not think Labour Party. It is about borrowing

against a party that stands for Labour Party. It is about borrowing

before the Labour conference, which is unemployment, GDP growth and

before the Labour conference, which warming economic picture. That does

not pay energy bills. Does not sound that the Tories have anything

not pay energy bills. Does not to counter the price freeze. --

not pay energy bills. Does not does not sound. They have had a

week to think about a great attack line and they do not add anything.

the credibility test. Ed Miliband said, if there were a big spike

the credibility test. Ed Miliband energy prices, he would not be able

it is about credibility. Being seen as serious and grown-up is worth

it is about credibility. Being seen more than any burst of popularity.

with the election campaign, it My worry about the announcement

with the election campaign, it begins to lose credibility, begins

to seem a banana republic. It looks a lot less wise than it did last

week. I disagree. Every time energy bills go up and they will continue

to go up, it will be a reminder bills go up and they will continue

how much people are being hit in the pockets. People know by energy

prices are going up. There is a structural change in the world that

was not there before - China and India. These energy companies may

be making huge profit but, at the end of the day, what is driving

be making huge profit but, at the the cost of fuel is China and India.

Ed Miliband, great man that he is, I am not sure he can take on the

people Sammir on that one. How dare Labour's Conference in Brighton

last week. Dogged by criticism over the summer of his leadership style

and lack of policies, Mr Miliband tried to demonstrate his strength

of character with a series of bold announcements, and attempted to

position himself on the side of ordinary Brits. The Labour leader

told party members he would stand up to the strong and take on the

vested interests that hold back up to the strong and take on the

economy. In a speech in which he jokingly referred to himself as

economy. In a speech in which he action hero, Mr Miliband promised

to switch the forthcoming business action hero, Mr Miliband promised

tax cut from large firms to smaller businesses. He said he would force

big firms to train at an apprentice every time they bring in a worker

from outside the EU. He hinted that increasing the minimum wage would

be increased. He bowed to take on developers with a use it or lose it

threat to landowners and pledged to build 200,000 homes each year by

2020. He promised to freeze energy prices and reset the energy market.

The next Labour government will freeze gas and electricity prices

provoked a rash of headlines - hailing the return of red Ed macro.

It has also given him a spike in the polls. And Labour's Shadow

Ed Miliband says, our energy market is broken and does not work. In

what way is that market to date different from the one Labour left

companies that dominate the energy generate energy, and sell it on

companies that dominate the energy Miliband recognised when he was

Secretary of State and asked for more information from the company

Secretary of State and asked for is on hold serve costs and profits,

all the things we have done to mitigate against that in terms of a

warm front programme and everything Horsell market is too secretive

warm front programme and everything it is too much about such supply. -

- the wholesale market. We have been raising with the Government in

a co-operative way the argument been raising with the Government in

resetting the market. It has got worse in terms of speed at which

prices have gone up. Labour put wholesale and retail together. It

was the start this dates back to wholesale and retail together. It

was the start this dates back to privatisation. We took some reforms

realised it was not working and privatisation. We took some reforms

was broken and we need to reset privatisation. We took some reforms

Ed Miliband will be the first to onwards. Let's have a look at what

happened to energy prices under onwards. Let's have a look at what

Labour government. Electricity up 67%, gas up 139%. Overall prices up

by 48%. The market was broken and we saw prices biking as wholesale

prices went up. The tick action we saw prices biking as wholesale

the one Front programme, decent homes for social housing. -- we

programme. Trying to do things around social obligations needs

programme. Trying to do things be looked at. Gas and electricity

presided over but as a consequence of Labour policy. Beds have a look

at the breakdown of dual fuel - of Labour policy. Beds have a look

and electricity bill. -- let's have a look. The supply costs of getting

it to us and so on. The policies government - Green levies - are

energy bills. £112 on average bill of 1188. You have put the bill up.

obligations amount to £112. That helps the poorest insulate homes.

Overwhelmingly, looking at your wholesale costs are worth more than

half. What we have seen, based on figures we now have, in Eni macro,

a wholesale costs fell by 39% and that was not reflected in our bills.

Do you have plans to do anything about the £112? If you took that

off, you could cut bills by 10% tomorrow. Or if you were in power.

It is important that restimulate energy. It -- we stimulate. If we

do not have clean energy, we will be beholden for ever-more to fossil

do not have clean energy, we will fuels that are depleting. It will

create jobs and bring in investment will start in the last few years,

investment. If I could go back to whatever advance there are, looking

at whether the money raised through energy companies to deliver energy

efficiency, is that doing as well as it might? Could it be better

delivered by another agency? They are fair questions. We need to get

market. Can we make the market will competitive make sure when there is

downward pressure on wholesale prices, that is reflected on our

bills? That is the bigger picture argument. Also the freeze to help

As you complain about the energy prices, it was as a result of your

actions. Ed Miliband introduced prices, it was as a result of your

climate change act. He admitted prices would have to rise to pay for

decarbonisation. He said, we are going to minimise the costs as much

as possible, but it is true there is not a low-cost energy future out

there. It is important that we address the pressures on bills,

there. It is important that we also recognise that if we are going

to build a better future where we can have more home-grown British

renewables. Truth is it is about the market. I acknowledge I acknowledge

wholesale prices have fallen. They fell in 2009, we got a reduction in

bills of 5%. Which are saying that the big companies are overcharging

customers. We are seeing profits going up, but we haven't seen the

amount of investment suggested by those profits coming through. But

because your leader said in his speech in Brighton that Labour will

have a world leading commitment speech in Brighton that Labour will

Government to take out all carbon from energy generation by 2030.

Government to take out all carbon is not that far away. By 2030, no

more coal generation, no more gas generation, only much more expensive

nuclear and much more expensive without bills going up even further?

Hang on a second. The 2030 target to remove carbon from the electricity

supply, we have said we should set a target now because, actually, it

gives us more time to plan ahead and also allows investment to come in.

There is plenty of people with cash in their pockets not want to invest

what they are stalling because of the Government's hesitancy over

this. I just want a clarification here. My understanding is that your

commitment is to get rid of all carbon from power generation by

2030? From the letters city supply. Only electricity. We will still

2030? From the letters city supply. gas? We have always said we will

need gas for decades to come. So we are clear for that. But you will be

increasingly dependent on expensive nuclear. EDF are currently demanding

twice the market price to build plans in this country. Renewables

are two or three times the market price. Bills are going up under

are two or three times the market policies? On nuclear, we took a

decision under the Labour Government that we needed to revitalise the

sector, to hit targets on clean that we needed to revitalise the

energy and make sure it can do the heavy lifting. The Government at the

discussions with EDF about what heavy lifting. The Government at the

important, because I don't know heavy lifting. The Government at the

it's going to be, it is important that stands up to scrutiny in terms

of value for money. At the same time, I go back to market reforms.

difference, the jargon for nuclear, We will not just have a target for

difference, the jargon for nuclear, we will have it for renewables as

well. That is even more important, that we have a transparent market so

that we can have a robust target that we have a transparent market so

that we can have a robust target price to be judged against. Michael

Gove recognised in question time they used the term cosy cartel.

Gove recognised in question time Cameron saying something needs to be

done. I'm surprised David Cameron doesn't acknowledge that. You are

going to freeze prices for 20 months regulator to replace Ofgem. Will

that regulator have the power to regulator to replace Ofgem. Will

control prices? The new energy wholesale costs and prices, which it

moment. As a result of that it will wholesale costs and prices, which it

wholesale prices fall, it can force the energy companies, if they don't,

to pass on reductions in bills to consumers. It will not have what we

see in some parts of the European Union, 15 of them, that have a

variety of price controls that set things at below inflation and what

have you. France, Spain, Italy. things at below inflation and what

will not do that. Why? Because we are looking at a temporary price

freeze to reflect a reduction in are looking at a temporary price

British public respite from ever reforms into the market. At the

British public respite from ever of this, what we want is a more

competitive market that can be trusted, that is more transparent.

We do believe it is right that, actually, we need a regulator that

has much more of a role in making effectively. Are you accusing energy

companies of profiteering? EU I effectively. Are you accusing energy

accusing them of overcharging and not passing on wholesale reduction

costs to the customer in a fair not passing on wholesale reduction

Of making Carter -- cartel profits? I do believe that the level of

profits they have passed on to their shareholders is high, compared to

the reductions they could have provided to consumers. Let's look at

the evidence for that. Here are provided to consumers. Let's look at

British owned companies, SSE and Centrica. In the last fiscal year

they made combined earnings of Centrica. In the last fiscal year

billion. The remaining money went to debt servicing and paying dividends,

which go into pension funds. Where profiteering? My figures that I

which go into pension funds. Where through their reporting to Ofgem and

work done by other organisations, Witch and others, it shows that

work done by other organisations, Centrica's case they have something

like 8% return in profit margins on the retail side. That goes up to 24%

on the generation side. They have passed on, in terms of profits,

something I70 4% through evidence to shareholders. But these figures

don't show that. They have invested £3 billion. I am reporting what

don't show that. They have invested been reported by Ofgem. Ofgem has

They may well be, but we don't have the evidence. I would accuse Ofgem

of not doing the job they should be of not doing the job they should be

doing, and they have held back from across the big six, something like

50% of profits has gone over to Centrica's case it is 74%. On the

Centrica example, even though they have had the highest profit margins,

they have invested the least. It is fair to question. We are running out

of time. None of us really know fair to question. We are running out

the true price of energy is that is crucial. That is because he merged

the market and we can't tell the difference. If they continue putting

prices up, even after your price freeze, if they don't invest in

prices up, even after your price way that they do, do you rule out

competitive market and that is why watching Sunday Politics. Coming up

in just over 20 minutes I will be looking at the week ahead with our

Coming up, has Sergeant Wilson in dad 's Army would say, are you sure

that wise? The government wants Ridge Greece hundreds of part of

soldiers and get rid of colleagues in the regular army —— wants to

Our two politicians ready to do battle of the conservative from

his Labour opponent Mark Dempsey. Welcome to you both. We get the

impression the election campaign has started. I think so. Had a really

great conference, Ed Miliband has set up a drastic agenda about how we

can build a better country, and set up a drastic agenda about how we

is interesting, he has made some reaching energy prices for the next

apprenticeships, help for those people who need help with childcare,

and the country for many, not the few. Did he have a point when he

said I understand the cost of living important point. We are starting to

see growth return to the economy and see how we can share the proceeds of

growth amongst all people. It will be a key issue at the election.

growth amongst all people. It will is the opposition leader is finally

announcing some policies, some will grab headlines, some unravelled

it is good, creating those dividing lines and allow us to focus the

debate. It will be quite a battle in Swindon. I think so, but for me

politics is about hope and building a better future. That is what I

politics is about hope and building about with Swindon. We have got

politics is about hope and building serious challenges, trying to build

the new economy for the time, trying to regenerate our town centre, and

unlocking hope and opportunity for young people. So you don't want

exceptionally hard in a positive manner, the biggest swing in the

disruption next month as teachers staged trikes. It is about pay and

conditions —— stage strikes. It staged trikes. It is about pay and

led to the secondaries in Somerset being labelled as not good enough.

Please pay attention, we may ask The government talk of a revolution

in education, free schools and academies, harder exams, changed

curriculums, tougher inspections. It is not just rank—and—file teachers

who are frustrated. The secondary school get some of the best GCSE

results in Somerset, the controversy inspection. A flawed visit and the

were not ready for what we thought was a negative attitude that the

inspectors came with, they seemed to be looking for negative part of

inspectors came with, they seemed to school and ignored the very many

positive aspects we have. Ofsted 's ratings have recently been toughened

up, as a consequence is a set of secondary schools, nearly half,

up, as a consequence is a set of officially not good enough. But

worried parents wanting answers couldn't go to the council, as they

are all academies which answer to the government. It was four days

before the Minister responsible Many of the academies have only

converted recently so I don't think we would have expected to see all

the benefits of academy status. we would have expected to see all

really crucial thing in schools we would have expected to see all

not the brand on the gate, it is the leadership. Academies with their

unpopular with many teachers. Nine days ago they protested outside

Gloucester Academy as the education secretary came to visit. And nobody

should try and make a profit out of education, teaching pupils. It is to

let Michael Gove but we're not happy education system in this country.

Most teachers have been asked to strike. Nobody is helped by going on

strike, it is bad for children's education, parents are they have to

pay more for childcare and bad for the reputation of the teaching

profession. The showdown is looming, with disruption in some areas this

week and in the West on October with disruption in some areas this

We can speak to the head of the Somerset. Are these strikes really

about pay or other teaching unions waging a political war? It is not

about political motivation, it is about disruption and the sense of

anger and frustration teachers feel they are not allowed to get on with

which is teaching children. The Secretary of State wants to improve

standards. The way he is right to do it is with a stick rather than a

carrot, he attempt to change terms and conditions which have been

negotiation at the notional —— local and national level, he wants to

negotiation at the notional —— local that up and change the way teaching

is done to the detriment. He wants performance related pay. What is the

problem? If they were sorely out of 80 by pay you could understand that

circumstance but it doesn't work like that, they are motivated by

their want to be able to teach collaboratively. If you are playing

one teacher in one consumer set amount and another one a different

amount, there will be difficulties loosely teachers are competing,

amount, there will be difficulties will not want to work together to

The government has got rid of this classification of satisfactory,

The government has got rid of this satisfactory you are classed as

being not good enough. That is reasonable, isn't it? The problem

difficult for them. Many teachers over many years have been labelled

as good or satisfactory, that means doing the job well enough. Everybody

would like to improve. I used to get satisfactory report at school and

that meant rubbish. That something your school report, David. Do you

recognise this criticism of the government? Some of the trade union

against these changes but they are not as angry as parents are. Look at

the situation we inherited, one not as angry as parents are. Look at

of three children leaving primary school not able to read and write.

Maybe we are going to quickly, but if we are not quick to bring in

these urgent reforms and changes we Are you not concerned about acting

too quickly? I don't think we are going quick enough. I went to a

state school myself, all children only have one opportunity, we have a

duty to make sure every single young person, regardless of background,

not just somebody who can afford to go to private education, can get the

best opportunity to acquaint them and it frustrates me, parents, that

some of the tiny minority of trade union people wants to stand in the

way of giving children the chance. The revelation will study by Labour.

They have put a huge amount of money schools across the country. I grew

classrooms that were crumbling and state—of—the—art schools and I feel

really proud of that. I'm worried about reports coming through from

are seeing cuts to education related to the 1950s, that will not help

school standards. There will be to the 1950s, that will not help

cuts under Labour? We have got to make sure money is spent properly.

Willoughby cuts? The free schools that have been announced or often

take in —— taking places from where there is a real demand. In Swindon

there is a massive demand for school places, there are shortage for

families that want to get their places, there are shortage for

into primary school and secondary school and at the moment it is not

self—interest, teachers are more you ask any teacher, whatever they

voted, they will tell you what they are interested in is motivating

children and improving standards. When they see a government that

comes in, and trying to change terms and conditions which means they

comes in, and trying to change terms got to work longer, get paid less,

work until they are 68, too tired to teach, they find that strange and

they are not going to be able to do that and the pace of change is far

too fast, it is too difficult for them. He said it is not fast enough.

absolutely frazzled. They work incredibly hard. I visit a lot of

time visiting schools and my family is a family of teachers, and on

performance related pay, it is absolutely right and proper that we

reward and incentivise the best teachers. We seek some teachers

reward and incentivise the best go that extra mile to help people 's

bring them opportunities, it is madness for a tiny amount of people

It is day one of the Conservative party conference and a row over

It is day one of the Conservative much the government is spending

It is day one of the Conservative defence is already rearing its head.

Here in the West 40,000 people are employed by the military, but the

numbers of regular troops being reduced, is it time to rethink

These are just some of our part—time soldiers, on a training exercise

redundancy programme in the regular army numbers will fall from just

extraterritorial soldiers or Army reservist as they will soon be

known, just like these, are being drafted in to bolster numbers.

recruitment drive with the hope drafted in to bolster numbers.

raising those number of reservist from just 19,000, up to 30,000,

I2018. But it is controversial with this retired Major General amongst

Conservative led coalition should rethink their plans. If you what I

immediate things, education, health, and therefore it is tempting to

immediate things, education, health, government as to have defence as the

number one priority, the defence of interest is really important. If you

intend to do it properly at this very expensive. The key is what

exactly do we intend to do on the world stage in future, and that

would actually alter the budget world stage in future, and that

Doubts about the recruitment process are also causing concerns amongst

some of David Cameron's then back inches, but the Conservative MP

some of David Cameron's then back repressed Eve. He spent a year

deployed here in Afghanistan, just before he was elected to Parliament.

I got an immense sense of pride before he was elected to Parliament.

serving, I felt I had missed out by not being a soldier and doing my

bit, I was interested in military affairs. He has no doubt about

expanding the number of reservists leadership over the pace of the

We are loyal to the government most of the time but there are times

We are loyal to the government most opinions may differ from others

We are loyal to the government most the first responsibility of every

government is defence of the realm, protection of our people, there

government is defence of the realm, risk that we're going as near as a

something happened, we can never predict these things, I think we

Will the recruitment drive work gesture marked several other numbers

seems to —— seem to suggest it will be a battle in itself. If you see

them working in Afghanistan, Iraq, you wouldn't know the difference,

they are totally interchangeable with the regular army, but that

takes an enormous amount of money to train to that level and animal ——

enormous commitment for the soldiers and to the employers who have got to

let them go for six months at a time, and go for more training than

Tomorrow the Army will be showing off their latest recruits in a

training exercise just like this one, but on Salisbury plain. The

Ministry of Defence has told us one, but on Salisbury plain. The

recruitment drive to be slow. The hope still remains that West Country

men and women, just like these, hope still remains that West Country

excitement than they get in their day job, will want to sign up before

We were hoping to speak to Brigadier recruitment recess but he has been

called out on manoeuvres. They sent us this statement and said Saint

week have always said it was going committed to getting minimus and we

are going to make it work. It is your party that wants to do this, is

post—Afghanistan state, the world is changing, we don't know whether

post—Afghanistan state, the world is would be cyber attacks, land—based,

navy based, have based, and it is creating greater flexibility in

navy based, have based, and it is context of tough financial times. In

an ideal world, I hear what some of the people were saying during that

clip, you would want to spend more defence, health, education, the

right villages, but we are creating something after Afghanistan that is

fit for purpose, flexible and ready for new challenges. What would

Labour do? The concern is due have seen a reduction in army numbers,

and yet you are not able to recruit reservists to replace that, that is

a real concern, there are questions about the private sector contract

which needs to be resolved. There are three things you need to sort

out, first investigate what has are three things you need to sort

wrong, I believe we have called National Audit Office to do that,

and it is about the pace of change, even people like Sir Michael Rojo

said the pace of change is too fast and resulting in a change that could

be potentially fatal so you need to secondly, critically, you need to

make sure the reservists are in place before you start reducing

make sure the reservists are in numbers. The safety of people is

paramount. You cannot do anything other than make sure people are

safe. Who is the enemy? That is other than make sure people are

challenge, that is what we don't know which is why we have got to

have greater flexibility. You have the reservists, better equipment, we

look back to when we went into Iraq without overly equipping our rave

troops, it is getting the balance, —— rave troops. There is no appetite

for war in this country. Unless their foreign troops on the mend its

another war so isn't it sensible to Cross—party there was no appetite

regardless of the circumstances Cross—party there was no appetite

we would see that in probably many other circumstances. No foreseeable

war, why do we need search a large military? You need to make sure

war, why do we need search a large are fit for purpose and planned

war, why do we need search a large have jeopardised the effectiveness

of the armed services, rather than planning it in the long term so

of the armed services, rather than are ready for whatever might happen

Who knows what is round the corner. The Prime Minister has ruled out any

pact with the UK Independence party, even though the Conservatives are

being badly hit by the rise in their support. I went to number ten to

Thank you for having us. You talk of economic recovery might yet the

number of people using food banks in the West Country has doubled over

the last year, this recovery is the West Country has doubled over

for everybody, is it? We need to everybody, we made a good start

because for instance in your region employed in the private sector then

there were when this government employed in the private sector then

to office, but clearly we need the recovery to build, we want everybody

to benefit, we want to be a recovery that create even more jobs, help

people with things dancers, we want to cut taxes and let people out

people with things dancers, we want continues today, we have been frank

and said job centres should be able to point people towards food banks

if they are in need and that has resulted in an increase in their

use. Over time, we want to see more themselves and their families. Jacob

Rees Mogg, MP for Somerset, do you know him? He has got a plan for

Rees Mogg, MP for Somerset, do you to get re—elected, he said the pact

re—elect you and Nigel Farage can be your deputy. The Conservative party

should put itself forward and say economy is recovering, don't turn

back and read it with Labour but stick with us and we will build

back and read it with Labour but recovery for role with jobs and

being on the side of people who recovery for role with jobs and

hard. People will have to make a confronted with a choice, stay on

Conservatives or put it all at risk anti—business, anti—recovery plans,

more spending, more borrowing, more debt, people will have to choose and

they will choose to stay on the right track. Jacob has many good

David Cameron talking to me this interesting idea. After all, you

have got much more in, with UKIP than with the Lib Dems. I have

always had sympathies with their position on Europe but the Prime

individual parties, people was —— people with passion their judgement

and we will see what happens. UKIP Rwanda pony, on Europe they have got

policies, everything else, who knows? —— UKIP are a one trick pony

up from all parties, it is not so much about Europe, it is about a

political parties. We have had a by—election in Swindon, Labour

thought they would take the seat because of votes switching to UKIP

and it didn't happen. We want an overall majority, that is what we

are setting out to do. We want to set out our stall for why we want

win the next general election, tackling the cost of living crisis.

Would you be happy working with tackling the cost of living crisis.

collaboration between parties, or we do that in the council chamber,

collaboration between parties, or we work together with the gender is to

win the next general election and the Labour Party conference sure

they do have the vision to take the Labour Party conference sure

These are some of the hundreds of firefighters from across the West

who went on strike this week in firefighters from across the West

dispute with the government over their pensions. It only lasted four

hours and there were no incidents other than some burnt toast. I don't

firefighters rescuing them day and night. They understand our concerns.

There has been an exodus of senior managers from Bristol City Council,

all of the heads of department were offered voluntary redundancy and

five of them took it. It is unclear how many of those will be replaced.

When the cab respect the closed pension residence worried what would

happen to the old site. This week plans were approved for new houses

and read about and other sports club. It is standing empty on Weston

seafront and councillors are trying to decide what should happen to

seafront and councillors are trying old Tropicana site. The government

has ruled they cannot knock it down so redevelopment is now the only

firefighters strike. They can get a but at 55 they bring in a fitness

test and if you don't pass that but at 55 they bring in a fitness

pension, is that fair? I think the concern people have is you will

pension, is that fair? I think the up with firefighters that are not

Conservative government have had two years to try and resolve this, and I

really don't want to see a strike which could endanger lives. They

need to get back to negotiating which could endanger lives. They

sorted out. Credit to the union which could endanger lives. They

straight in a manner that didn't put any problems in four hours but they

would come back if they would be anything serious. Ghosh Asians are

continuing, Yvette Cooper has as what we are doing is the right way,

—— and negotiations are continuing. If you dial 909, due at a bloke

—— and negotiations are continuing. me 55 turning up? It is a credit to

the union they struck in a manner that something was serious they

would have come back. Ghosh Asians need to continue, they have got

would have come back. Ghosh Asians be realistic what they are asking

That is all we have got time for. Thank you to Mark and Justin for

joining us and welcome back to Jack, the MP who we saw in the film, he

has been off work treated for cancer that is failing much better, we

has been off work treated for cancer him a full and speedy recovery.

for. My thanks again to Mary McLeod and Emily Thornberry. Back to you,

So, we'll David Cameron's marriage tax break win over voters? How will

So, we'll David Cameron's marriage conference initiatives? And what is

UKIP leader Nigel FarageFarage up to with the Tories in Manchester?

On this business of a possible Tory- UKIP pact, in a general election,

let's see what David Cameron had to say about that earlier. I am not

looking for a packed. I think we need to give people a clear choice

at the general election. The British economy has turned a corner. We

at the general election. The British on the right track, we are seeing

more jobs, new businesses, we are beginning to get things moving

again. Do you want to stick with us, hard-working people, or do you want

to put it at risk with Ed Miliband hard-working people, or do you want

and his crazy plans to tax business out of existence? That was the Prime

there any appetite on the UKIP side discussions around the country,

there any appetite on the UKIP side would say no. It's being discussed,

is the media that is pushing this. It has reflected what has happened

conference season began. Labour It has reflected what has happened

trying to reclaim what I would call position. I'm not sure what the

Liberal Democrats or two, but the Conservatives are trying to react to

accusation they are lurching more to the right, which the media wants to

able to do some sort of pact with interpret as them possibly being

able to do some sort of pact with UKIP. Have you given any thought to

whatsoever. It is not on the radar. I have read comments, including

Carswell, the Eurosceptics, that they might form a potential, let's

call it, you know, cabinet. If there were UKIP members, I don't doubt

that Nigel Farage would be one of them. But I would reiterate it is

not discussions that are taking place. I am thinking more of an

have responded to that by saying, the moment, there are no ongoing

discussions. There is certainly constituency level or coming out of

believe any constituencies are Eurosceptics? I am not privy to

believe any constituencies are all 360 constituencies might be

discussing. All I can do is give you the example of the few I have seen

and know it is not on the agenda. Without a pact, it is perfectly

possible that you could fail to Without a pact, it is perfectly

a single seat at the next election, but put Ed Miliband into Downing

Street? Categorically not. There are a number of seats out there that are

very clear marginals, just like a number of seats out there that are

Izzard was. I believe there could be an MP -- just like Eastleigh was. If

you take enough votes away from an MP -- just like Eastleigh was. If

Tories, if you make sure that Labour wins? I will go back to the comment

I made. If you take Eastleigh as an example, a Liberal Democrat held

seat, even after that result, does not mean that UKIP is suddenly going

to be focusing on Tory seats. We are out there because people resonate

with our message. For the Liberal Democrats to make it abundantly

clear that they will not support a referendum, that they will not

support any discussion on leaving the queue, that could be a big

turn-off for voters. David Cameron says there is not going to be a

pact, Diane James says there is says there is not going to be a

going to be one. There might be says there is not going to be a

or at a constituency level. But says there is not going to be a

seems clear to me that there will not be a national one. So, does

David Cameron have a UKIP strategy? The only encouraging thing for

UKIP's successful David Cameron that the moment that he would only

that their support is so enormous that the moment that he would only

really need to win back maybe a third or a quarter of its to make a

decisive difference to the Tory share of the vote in 2015. The

question becomes, how much of that UKIP support is up for grabs? A

question becomes, how much of that last week suggested that 47% of

current UKIP voters would consider voting Tory if it meant preventing

Ed Miliband becoming Prime Minister. That number goes up to 57% against

recovery. So, plausibly, there is secondary question is, what does

David Cameron do to win over those people? He has tried a Europe will

referendum and it didn't work. He tried travelling up his immigration

policy and that didn't work. I wonder if it is time. You wait until

the run-up to 2015, when they start to focus on the explicit choice

Cameron, and that is what shifts a Cameron. We heard from William Hague

earlier in the programme, the Tory line is that if you vote UKIP you

could end up with Ed Miliband in Downing Street. That is the simple

appeal, isn't it? Yes, and I think Diane is right, I think the European

elections will show a good showing for UKIP. It is deemed the one where

you can play away. I think it will be hard for people to get excited

about that, I think that bounce be hard for people to get excited

fade away. In Eastleigh, they had a good ground game, that is difficult

for UKIP, that don't have that machinery sorted. How are they going

to fund that operation? But the machinery sorted. How are they going

bounce could fade away after the European elections. Even if they go

election, they are still immensely dangerous to the Conservative Party.

But there is really only two things David Cameron can do. One is to

But there is really only two things boring and talk about helping people

with their mortgage, helping with bread and butter issues. The second

thing is, those European actions, he tends to the natural Conservative

voters and says, you have had your fun, next year do you want me or Ed

Miliband us your prime and? The fun, next year do you want me or Ed

danger with David Cameron is saying, of course, there is not going to be

a pact, the danger is you will get a repeat of the 1977 election. John

Major said, famously, do not bind my hands. A series of Conservative

personally rule out membership of the euro, when the Conservative

membership was wait and see. That looked like a Prime Minister not in

charge of his party. The danger looked like a Prime Minister not in

Let's assume you do really well looked like a Prime Minister not in

the European actions and there is a widespread expectation that you

will, even in Downing Street. They might be managing expectations.

will, even in Downing Street. They stops you fading away as the general

election approaches? A number of reasons. As has been mentioned,

election approaches? A number of whole issue of the referendum pledge

has been proved to be an absolute nonsense. It is so contingent on if

I am re-elected, if it's not a coalition government, is, if, if.

That was fooled nobody. The issue of where voters are coming from, it is

because they have lost faith in where voters are coming from, it is

David Cameron says. There is nothing he is going to say that is convince

think that is my view and the view of a lot of UKIP. I am told that

they have expunged Nigel Farage of a lot of UKIP. I am told that

the fringes? It is a great scoop, on the front page. They are outside the

ring of steel. Even so, they won't programme, so they must be worried

paid money for adverts in the Tory about something. His people have

paid money for adverts in the Tory brochure and his name has been taken

out. Speaking of people the Tory brochure and his name has been taken

leadership is worried about, Boris Johnson, are we in any doubt as

leadership is worried about, Boris interview that he is now beginning

his long march back to Parliament? He does express feeling slightly sad

during the Syria debate that he He does express feeling slightly sad

not there, on the political front line to participate. I still do

not there, on the political front see why it is in his interest is to

move before 2015. No, I don't think he will move before, I think he

move before 2015. No, I don't think sending a signal to the existing

Tories in the Commons that when sending a signal to the existing

Me Dave goes, I will be back? He has the Vince Cable problem, if you

Me Dave goes, I will be back? He has the same thing too many times,

people get bored and factor it in. The interesting thing is him saying

that people have seven years before the electorate get bored of them. He

might be cresting that. He doesn't want to be Prime Minister, he is

much more ambitious than that. He wants to be an emperor. He was

asked, which Roman emperor would you like to be compared to? You said,

important. I don't think you are thinking big enough. See what I

important. I don't think you are to put up with, every Sunday? By

virtue of being born in the US, to put up with, every Sunday? By

could be president. Unlike Arnold Schwarzenegger. How about a deal

with Boris? He has made no secret, after Eastleigh, that he would be

open to a discussion. Let's call it no more than a discussion. He has

been adamant, however, he does not see any reason, any justification or

any opportunity where he would be able to have that discourse with

any opportunity where he would be David Cameron. Maybe it comes down

to that on both sides. I've no idea. We know that the Tories will be

to that on both sides. I've no idea. more Eurosceptic after the next

election? I can't imagine David Cameron's successor will be somebody

that supports EU membership in ideological direction of the party.

The leadership contest will be about 2018. If you are standing, when

this is a great deal for Britain membership, are you going to say

this is a great deal for Britain because the Prime Minister has

turned to leave rapid change two words in the working Time directive,

turned to leave rapid change two or are you going to become a leader

by saying, I want out? What would be a good conference for David Cameron

eye-catching announcement related to living standards. May be a clearer

line on energy prices? That would certainly help, that fightback has

been rubbish so far. The thing we should be looking out for are not

the polls immediately after, but the ones about the end of October, when

everything gets to settle down and then we will see what happens. In a

word, what is Nigel Farage out to get at the Tory conference? What is

he doing, other than mischief? I could almost say revenge. Revenge on

Mr Cameron? Yes. You know? Lord Ashcroft was there at the Labour

conference. You call it mischief, but there is every reason why he

should be there. We all call it mischief. Thanks for being with

should be there. We all call it Join me on Daily Politics for live

coverage of the Conservative Party conference tomorrow morning from

11:30 on BBC Two. We will bring conference tomorrow morning from

George Osborne's speech live and uninterrupted. I'll be back next

weekend when guests will include former Conservative Chancellor

Kenneth Clarke. Remember, if it former Conservative Chancellor

Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.