06/04/2014 Sunday Politics West


06/04/2014

Andrew Neil and David Garmston with the latest political news, interviews and debate, including a look over Maria Miller's expenses apology. With Labour's Caroline Flint.


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Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:36.:00:39.

Pressure on Culture Secretary Maria Miller mounts as the Tory press

:00:40.:00:42.

Tory voters and even a Tory Minister turn against her. That's our top

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story. The economic outlook is getting

:00:48.:00:50.

rosier. But Ed Miliband is having none of it. The cost of living

:00:51.:00:55.

crisis is here to stay, says Labour. Shadow Minister Caroline Flint joins

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us for the Sunday Interview. And we bring you the Sunday Politics

:01:06.:01:08.

Gallery. But which former world leader is behind these paintings of

:01:09.:01:10.

In awe of you. world leaders?

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new London borough. A blue flint for regeneration or economic Armageddon?

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And with me as always, the best and the brightest political panel in the

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business - Janan Ganesh, Helen Lewis and Nick Watt. Their tweets will be

:01:38.:01:40.

as brief as a Cabinet Minister's apology.

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A frenzy of betting on the Grand National yesterday. But there was

:01:46.:01:50.

one book on which betting was suspended, and that was on the fate

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of Culture Secretary Maria Miller, now the 2/1 favourite to be forced

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out the Cabinet. She galloped through her apology to the Commons

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on Thursday in just 32 seconds. But speed did her no favours. There s

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been mounting pressure on her to resign ever since, especially from

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Tories. And this weekend the Chairman of the Independent

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Parliamentary Standards Authority, Ian Kennedy, said it's time MPs gave

:02:10.:02:12.

away the power to decide how colleagues who break the rules are

:02:13.:02:26.

punished. An inquiry into Maria Miller's expenses claims was launch

:02:27.:02:32.

in 2012, following allegations he claimed ?90,000 to fund a house she

:02:33.:02:37.

lived in part time with her parents. She had designated this her second

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home. She was referred to the Parliamentary Standards

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Commissioner, who recommended that she repay ?45,000. But this week the

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Commons Standards Committee, comprising of MPs from all parties,

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dismissed the complaint against Maria Miller and ordered her to

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repay just ?5,800 for inadvertently overclaiming her merge claimants.

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She was forced to apologise to the Commons for the legalistic way she

:03:10.:03:13.

dealt with the complaints against her. But Tony Gallagher told the

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Daily Politics on Friday: We got a third call from Craig Oliver who

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pointed out, she is looking at Leveson and the call is badly timed.

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I think if you are making a series of telephone calls to a newspaper

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organisation investigating the conduct of a Cabinet Minister, that

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comes close After that interview Craig Oliver

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contacted us, saying there was no threat in anyway over Leveson. I

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mead it clear at the time. Tony Gallagher is talking rubbish about

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me, and you can use that. The Daily Telegraph have released a tape of a

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phone call between Maria Miller s aid, Joanna Hindley, and a reporter

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investigating her expenses claim. Joanna Hindley said:

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Maria's obviously been having quite a lot of editor's meetings around

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Leveson at the moment. So I'm just going to kind of flag up that

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connection for you to think about. The Prime Minister is sticking by

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his Culture Secretary, but this weekend's crescendo of criticism of

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her presents him with a problem and he could be wishing Maria Miller

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would just fall on her sword. Even over 80% of Tory voters in a Mail on

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Sunday poll think she should go On the Andrew Marr Show, the Work and

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Pensions Secretary, Iain Duncan Smith, defended his colleague. I've

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known her always to be a reasonable and honest person. But is she doing

:04:36.:04:40.

the Government or her any good by staying in office at the moment do

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you think? This is a matter the Prime Minister has to take

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consideration of and she herself. My view generally is I'm supportive of

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Maria, because if we are not careful we end one a witch-hunt of somebody.

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And I'm joined now by the Conservative MP, Bob Stewart, and

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the man in the white suit, former MP and anti-sleaze campaigner Martin

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Bell. Welcome to you both. Stuart Stuart sturkts let me put this to

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you, a Conservative MP told this programme, this is a quote, she has

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handled this appallingly. Downing Street has acted like judge and

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jury, for Craig Oliver to get involved is disastrous. She's been

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protected by the whips from the start. What do you say to that? It's

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not great, is it? The fact of the matter is the question one should

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ask is, did she deliberately try to make money? Did she deliberately try

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to obscure ate? The answer is she certainly didn't deliberately try to

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make money, in the system, which was the old system, and with regard to

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obscure ago, I wasn't there, but let's put it this way. She was going

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through a quasi-judicial process and might have ended up in court, so she

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has a right to defend herself. Hold on o you said she doesn't do it to

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make money, she remortgaged the house a couple of times to earn more

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interest to us, the taxpayer, and when interest rates went down she

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didn't reduce the amount she was charging in expenses. Well, the

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point is the adjudicator said there was ?45,000 she was owed. And then a

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committee, Standards Committee, said actually it should be reduced. That

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was mainly MPs but there are three lay members. Yes, but they don't

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have the vote. OK, fine, that is where it is wrong and we've got to

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get it sorted. Let me put another quote from our Conservative MP. He

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didn't want to be named. None of you do at the moment. I'm being named.

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But you are backing her. George young in cahoots. He's been leading

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on the Standards Committee to find her innocent. The Standards

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Committee is unfit for purpose. I think the Standards Committee should

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be revisited. I think the system is still evolving. And I think actually

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we ought to have totally independent judgment on MPs' pay and allowances.

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We haven't have not got there yet and that is where it is wrong.

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Martin Bell, have MPs interfered in the Maria Miller process and with

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the current Standards Commissioner in the same way that they saw off a

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previous Commissioner they thought was too independent? Andrew it is

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exactly the same. Yesterday I looked at a diary entry I made for May

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2000, I said, dreadful meeting standards and privileges, they are

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playing party politics. One of them told Elizabeth fill kin to her face

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the gossip in the tea room was she had gone crazy. Nothing's changed.

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What this shows is most of all, what's the committee for? If it is

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just going to rubber stamp what the party wants and its mates, I don't

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see any point. But it hasn't rubber stamped. It's changed it. Well, it

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has watered down. That's why we should make it totally independent

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and it shouldn't be involved in the House of Commons. It is plus plus ca

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change isn't it? MPs', scandal, and MPs closing ranks for one of their

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own. Has the Commons learned nothing? And this is after the

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expenses scandal, where everything was out for everybody to see, you

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would think MPs would be careful. This is before the expenses scandal.

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We are looking at an historical event, during your time, Martin not

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mine. I'm clean on this. You campaigned for him as an

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independent. I did, he was a good friend of mine. And now you've

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joined the club. And now you are defending Maria Miller? I'm

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defending someone who hasn't been proved guilty of anything beyond the

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fact she was rather slow to come forward with evidence. My point on

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that, is I understand that. MPs are being lambasted the whole time these

:08:53.:08:57.

days. There were a heck of a lot of them, Martin, who are utterly

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decent. She didn't try to make money. We've just been through that.

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I don't think that's right. The jury is out on that. What should have

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happened in the Miller case, Martin Bell? I don't think there should be

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a committee on standards. I think the Commissioner should make a

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report. There has been to be justice for the MP complained against. Then

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the committee of the whole House can consider it. But we are, the House

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of Commons, then as now is incapable of regulating itself. That's been

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proving yet again. She made a perfunctory apology. She threatened

:09:35.:09:39.

and instructed the Standards Commissioner investigating her, and

:09:40.:09:43.

her special adviser linked expenses to Leveson, when trying to stop the

:09:44.:09:47.

Daily Telegraph from publishing I mean, is that the behaviour of a

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Cabinet Minister? Well, it's probably not the behaviour of

:09:53.:09:54.

someone that's got time on their hands. She's a very busy Cabinet

:09:55.:10:00.

Minister. Well, she had enough time to write lots of letters to the

:10:01.:10:05.

Standards Commission ser. She felt under such threat. She had the time.

:10:06.:10:13.

She had to make the time. Die know the lady is not trying desperately

:10:14.:10:16.

to make money. I disagree but on that. The fact of the matter is

:10:17.:10:21.

this was an old, old system, that we've tried to put right, or the

:10:22.:10:26.

Commons has tried to put right. I agree that MPs shouldn't get

:10:27.:10:30.

involved in this. Should we get rid of this committee? It serves no

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purpose except to cause trouble The adjudicator has said that and it

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should be the end of it. It shouldn't come back to the Commons.

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Although her special adviser threatened them over Leveson she was

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and is the Minister responsible for trying to introduce something like

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Leveson and that is something a big chunk that the press doesn't want.

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She is a target. It has a good record on this issue. It played wit

:11:01.:11:06.

a straight bat. The facts aren't in dispute are they? Will she make it

:11:07.:11:11.

to the next cabinet reshuffle and then go? Iain Duncan Smith said it

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is a matter for the Prime Minister. In my view, as things stand, I

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question did she deliberately want to make money? I don't think she

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did. Should she go? No. Should she be reshuffled? I don't know.

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Goodness me, you are asking someone who will never be reshuffled,

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because he will never make it. I was only asking for your opinion, not

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your ability to do it. This is a problem for Cameron isn't it? It is

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a problem for Cameron. There is nothing wrong with returning to be

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badge benches, as you know. Hear, hear. To that. Stick with me. Helen,

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can she survive? Is I'm going out of the prediction game when I said

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Clegg is going to win the date, so I owe Janan a tenner on that one.

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Grant Shapps has supported her. She was ringed by Sir George young and

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Jeremy Hunt... This is pretty devastating. On past form David

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Cameron hates having to bounce people out of the cabinet. He will

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want to keep Maria Miller until the summer reshuffle. This is a question

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mark on whether she survive this is. This isn't damaging to the

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Conservative or the Labour Party, it is damaging to everyone. This is

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catastrophic damage to the entire political establishment. Every

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single speech that David Cameron and Ed Miliband have given since 20 9,

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talking about restoring trust, they can wipe them from their computers,

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because voters are going to look that there and say, this lot haven't

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learnt anything. They are giving perfunctory apologies and then you

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have MPs sitting in judgment on MPs and rather than paying back ?45 000,

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she pays back ?5,800 after MPs have been into it. Damage is huge. Just

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getting rid of one Cabinet Minister, you will need to do more than that.

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You will notice that Labour haven't made huge weather of this. No,

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goodness me, they have their own skeletons. Exactly. The person who

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has made hay out of this is Nigel Farage, who has not been backwards

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in coming forward. He doesn't seem to care about skeletons. The Prime

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Minister has be-Gunby backing her, but that's not popular even with

:13:35.:13:38.

Tory voters. How does he get out of this? This is the problem for him.

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Five years ago his reaction to the expenses scandal was seen by many

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Tory backbenchers as excessive. They felt hung out to dry by a man who is

:13:50.:13:53.

independently wealthy. To go from that to making a special exemption

:13:54.:13:58.

to Maria Miller because it is politically suitable is more

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incendiary and provocative. It is not just upsetting the voters and

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the Daily Telegraph but a good number of people behind him. I think

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they will get rid of her. I think the Government, to paraphrase

:14:09.:14:14.

Churchill, will zoo the decent thing after exhausting all options, of the

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European elections a reshuffle. The culture department has gone from a

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baulk water in haul to one of the most politically sensational jobs

:14:28.:14:29.

because of its proximity to the Leveson issue. She has to be

:14:30.:14:34.

replaced by someone Lily skillful and substantial. Mr Cameron is not

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short of smart women? Nikki Morgan, the education department, these are

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absolutely outstanding women and the problem that the generation elected

:14:56.:15:01.

in 2005, Maria Miller generation, there are some really good people

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elected in 2010. You are not responsible for hacking into the

:15:10.:15:13.

culture Department's Twitter account last night? I was out at the time!

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They all say that! One so, Maria Miller is like a modern-day Robin

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Hood... She robs the poor to help the rich. Which one of us has not

:15:29.:15:35.

embezzled the taxpayer? I reckon it is the lady. You have the perfect

:15:36.:15:44.

cover. We would not know how to would we? You cannot tweet from a

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mobile device, can you? Play it safe. No, do something dramatic

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Have lots of pledges. Have just a few pledges. Ah, there must be a

:15:59.:16:01.

Labour policy review reaching its conclusion because everyone has some

:16:02.:16:04.

free advice for the party about its message and the man delivering it.

:16:05.:16:12.

Here's Adam. He is well liked by the public don't quite buy him as a

:16:13.:16:18.

leader. The papers say he is in hock to the unions and the party has a

:16:19.:16:21.

lead in the polls but it is not solid. Bartenders Neil Kinnock. That

:16:22.:16:26.

is what they said Winnie who lost the 1982 election. The whole country

:16:27.:16:34.

deserves better and we will work to ensure that the day will come when

:16:35.:16:41.

with the Labour government, the country will get better. Someone who

:16:42.:16:46.

was there can see some spooky parallels. The important lesson from

:16:47.:16:52.

1992 is it cannot rest on your laurels and hope for the best, you

:16:53.:16:56.

cannot sit on a lead of seven points because the election narrows that

:16:57.:17:01.

and you cannot rely on the government not getting its act

:17:02.:17:04.

together because the Conservative Party was well funded and organised,

:17:05.:17:08.

the double whammy posters, the tax bombshell, but incredibly effective

:17:09.:17:14.

and the message was unified and they beat us on the campaign. The lesson

:17:15.:17:20.

for Labour today is this lead will evaporate quite possibly over the

:17:21.:17:23.

next few months and we might go into the election behind in the polls.

:17:24.:17:29.

But Ed Miliband is getting conflicting advice about how to

:17:30.:17:33.

avoid 1992 happening. Be bold, be cautious and then, the idea that

:17:34.:17:39.

Labour can squeak into office with just 35% of the vote, which worries

:17:40.:17:45.

some people. Each month, the Labour Party meets around the country and

:17:46.:17:51.

last week, everybody spoke about the dangers of this 35% strategy. They

:17:52.:17:56.

were increasingly unhappy and it is very important that those people

:17:57.:18:01.

around the leader naturally have a duty to protect him and they make

:18:02.:18:07.

sure he gets this message that while there is total support for him, they

:18:08.:18:13.

do want this key year in the run-up to the General Election to be

:18:14.:18:16.

putting out an alternative which we can defend on the doorstep. The

:18:17.:18:22.

doorstep where Neil Kinnock made his concession speech is crammed with

:18:23.:18:27.

Spanish back hackers. The old Labour offices are no a budget hostel.

:18:28.:18:35.

Labour headquarters is down the road and they are putting the finishing

:18:36.:18:39.

touches to a speech Ed Miliband will give this week about the cost of

:18:40.:18:42.

living and I am told he will drop hints about new policies in juicy

:18:43.:18:47.

areas like housing, low pay, growth and devolving power. As for the

:18:48.:18:51.

charge that they are not radical enough, his people say they want to

:18:52.:18:55.

be bold but they have to be credible as well. They say that Labour is

:18:56.:19:00.

more united than it has ever been but there has been some grumbling

:19:01.:19:04.

that the cost of living campaign is not the same as a vision for the

:19:05.:19:08.

country. And that Ed Miliband was not statesman-like enough at Prime

:19:09.:19:13.

Minister's Questions and one figure who sat at the same table in the

:19:14.:19:16.

Neil Kinnock years summed it up like this. Things are OK but it feels

:19:17.:19:22.

like we're playing for the draw Shadow Energy Secretary Caroline

:19:23.:19:25.

Flint joins me now for the Sunday Interview. This 35% victory

:19:26.:19:39.

strategy, it does not sound very ambitious? I am campaigning to win

:19:40.:19:46.

this election with a majority government and everybody else around

:19:47.:19:50.

the table is also. But we want to go to every corner of the country and

:19:51.:19:55.

win votes for Labour and win seats, that is what we are working towards.

:19:56.:20:00.

To avoid last time, the coalition bartering. But that 35% is a victory

:20:01.:20:08.

strategy so are you saying there is no 35% strategy and that no one at

:20:09.:20:13.

the heart of Labour is not arguing for this? We are working to win

:20:14.:20:19.

around the country and to win all of those battle ground seats and we

:20:20.:20:23.

must have a strategy that appeals to a cross-section of the public but

:20:24.:20:27.

within that, that broad group Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park and. You

:20:28.:20:38.

could do that with 35% of the vote? There is lots of polling and

:20:39.:20:40.

everyone looks at this about what we need to do to get seats and we want

:20:41.:20:46.

to have a comprehensive majority at the next election to win to govern

:20:47.:20:54.

this country. Last week, we have been reading reports of splits in

:20:55.:20:58.

the party over policy and on tactics, even strategy. A struggle

:20:59.:21:03.

for control of the General Election manifesto, we are told. What are you

:21:04.:21:11.

arguing over? I said on the committee and just listening to the

:21:12.:21:13.

film before, it is about being radical but also credible and we are

:21:14.:21:18.

talking about evolution and that is an important subject but we are also

:21:19.:21:25.

united and to be honest, in 201 people were writing us off saying we

:21:26.:21:28.

would turn on ourselves and that has not been the case. We are not

:21:29.:21:34.

arguing about the fundamentals, we are discussing the policies that are

:21:35.:21:38.

coming up with different colleagues and talking about how we can make

:21:39.:21:42.

sure they are presented to the public and that is part of a

:21:43.:21:45.

process. That is a discussion, not disagreement. The Financial Times,

:21:46.:21:53.

which is usually pretty fair, reports a battle between Ed

:21:54.:21:58.

Miliband's radical instincts and the more business fiscal conservatism of

:21:59.:22:03.

Ed Balls. What side are you on? I am for radical change, I am for energy

:22:04.:22:08.

and I believe strongly we must be formed the market and people might

:22:09.:22:12.

portray that as anti-business but this is about more competition and

:22:13.:22:18.

transparency and others coming into this market so our policy on this is

:22:19.:22:22.

radical, not excepting the status quo. It is also for business.

:22:23.:22:30.

Opinion polls show that few people regard Ed Miliband as by Minister

:22:31.:22:39.

material -- Prime Minister material. That has been true since he became

:22:40.:22:44.

leader. And in some cases, they have been getting worse. Why is that

:22:45.:22:50.

Opinion polls say certain things about the personalities of leaders,

:22:51.:22:55.

David Cameron is not great either. And they were not great when he was

:22:56.:23:01.

in opposition. At this stage, he was getting 49% as Prime Minister real

:23:02.:23:08.

material and Ed Miliband, 19. - Prime Minister material. When you

:23:09.:23:15.

look at certain questions that the public is asked about who you think

:23:16.:23:19.

you would trust about being fair in terms of policy towards Britain who

:23:20.:23:22.

understands the cost of living crisis, they very much identify with

:23:23.:23:28.

Ed Miliband. We are ahead in the polls. Ed Miliband has made that

:23:29.:23:35.

happen. We have one more councillors, we have been running in

:23:36.:23:41.

by-elections and we have held this government over the barrel over six

:23:42.:23:44.

months on energy prices. That is to do with his leadership. The more

:23:45.:23:49.

that voters save him, the less they seem convinced. In 2011, he had been

:23:50.:23:57.

leader for one year, and only 1 % regarded him as weird, by 2014, that

:23:58.:24:06.

was 41%. Look at that! Look at that weirdness! What people need is to

:24:07.:24:11.

know where the Labour Party stands on fundamental issues. And in those

:24:12.:24:15.

areas, particularly the cost of living and fairness and people being

:24:16.:24:20.

concerned that we are entering into a period where people will be worse

:24:21.:24:24.

for the first time ever at the end of the Parliament, these things are

:24:25.:24:29.

important and Ed Miliband is part of our success. Definitely. I think

:24:30.:24:37.

this is ridiculous, to be fair, he is not a politician that says, I am

:24:38.:24:42.

dying with the Arctic monkeys, I know who is the number one. He did

:24:43.:24:50.

not play that game. -- down. He is not either there to portray himself

:24:51.:24:55.

as someone who was with the children, I know everything about

:24:56.:24:59.

popular culture. His authenticity is the most important thing. People do

:25:00.:25:03.

not think he is authentic, unless they think we were at is authentic.

:25:04.:25:10.

Is it true that his staff applaud him when he comes back after giving

:25:11.:25:16.

even a mediocre speech? I have never heard that. I have never heard about

:25:17.:25:24.

him being applauded. And I am pleased to applaud him with he makes

:25:25.:25:27.

speeches, I have given him a standing ovation. You have to do

:25:28.:25:31.

that because the cameras are rolling! No, he made a good speech.

:25:32.:25:38.

Five minutes without notes. It took a long time to memorise I don't

:25:39.:25:42.

blame him! The cost of living. Focusing on that, it has paid

:25:43.:25:48.

dividends. But inflation is falling and perhaps collapsing, unemployment

:25:49.:25:52.

is falling faster than anybody thought, as we can see. Wages are

:25:53.:25:59.

rising, soon faster than prices Retail sales are booming, people

:26:00.:26:04.

have got money in their pockets Isn't the cost of living crisis

:26:05.:26:09.

narrative running out of steam? I do not think so and I should say that I

:26:10.:26:15.

welcome any sign of positive changes in the economy, if anybody gets a

:26:16.:26:20.

job in Doncaster, I am pleased by the end of this Parliament families

:26:21.:26:26.

will be over ?900 worse off because of tax and benefit changes and the

:26:27.:26:33.

working person is ?1600 worse off and it is the first government since

:26:34.:26:36.

the 1870s where people will be at the end of the Parliament. We

:26:37.:26:40.

believe the government made wrong choices that lead the rich off at

:26:41.:26:43.

the expense of those on middle and lower incomes. -- let the rich. The

:26:44.:26:52.

average family ?794 worse off from tax and benefit changes. That has

:26:53.:26:57.

been backed up. They are those figures. But he has skewed these

:26:58.:27:02.

figures by including the richest, where the fall in tax and the

:27:03.:27:07.

penalty they pay is highest. If you take away the richest, it is nowhere

:27:08.:27:12.

near that figure. Everybody agrees and even the government and

:27:13.:27:16.

knowledges that at the end of their tenure in Parliament, people will be

:27:17.:27:23.

worse off. 350,000 extra people who would desperately like full-time

:27:24.:27:27.

work who are working part-time and 1 million young people unemployed and

:27:28.:27:30.

the reason the cost of living has a residence is people feel that. I was

:27:31.:27:36.

in a supermarket and at Doncaster and someone summed this up, he said

:27:37.:27:40.

I work hard and at the end of the week, beyond paying bills, I have

:27:41.:27:45.

got nothing else. If you take away the top 10% who are losing over

:27:46.:27:53.

?600,000, the average loss comes down to around ?400, less than half

:27:54.:28:00.

of what you claim. That figure is totally misleading. These are the

:28:01.:28:06.

figures from the IFS. It still shows... Whatever way you shape

:28:07.:28:13.

this, people will still be worse off, families worse off because of

:28:14.:28:16.

these changes to tax and benefits and working people because wages

:28:17.:28:22.

have not kept up with prices. Your energy portfolio, you back the

:28:23.:28:27.

enquiry into the big six companies and you intend to go ahead with the

:28:28.:28:31.

price freeze and reconfigure the market even before it reports. If

:28:32.:28:37.

you win, this is a waste of time? Whilst we have had this process

:28:38.:28:40.

before the announcement, we always feel if it goes that way, there

:28:41.:28:45.

might be areas we have not thought of that the enquiry will also draw

:28:46.:28:48.

attention to that we might want to add on. You are right, our basic

:28:49.:28:53.

reforms for the new regulator, to separate generation supply, we will

:28:54.:28:59.

pursue that. What happens if this report concludes that your plans are

:29:00.:29:03.

not correct? You will still go ahead? I don't think so. Actually,

:29:04.:29:08.

if you look at the report that Ofgem produced, some of the issues Labour

:29:09.:29:12.

has been drawing attention to like vertical integration, they cover

:29:13.:29:17.

that. I was asking about the Competition Commission? The report

:29:18.:29:23.

last week is a result of working together and I think it is clearly

:29:24.:29:30.

accepted in this sector, look at SSE last week, they will separate the

:29:31.:29:34.

business. We are pushing at the open door. It has already pulled out of

:29:35.:29:54.

gas. So it follows if you freeze energy prices across the market it

:29:55.:29:58.

might be the right thing to do but there will be a cost in terms of

:29:59.:30:01.

jobs and investment, correct? Well, I met with SSE last weekand the

:30:02.:30:05.

chief executive and talked about these issues. The jobs changes are

:30:06.:30:10.

partly about them looking at how they could be more efficient as a

:30:11.:30:13.

company. On offshore wind that wasn't really to do with the price

:30:14.:30:17.

freeze. That was more to do with issues around confidence in that

:30:18.:30:19.

area and therefore willing to put the money into it, as well as

:30:20.:30:25.

technical issues as well But there'll be job losses. Is that a

:30:26.:30:31.

price worth paying? We believe the reason we are having a price freeze

:30:32.:30:35.

is these companies have been overcharging customers and haven't

:30:36.:30:38.

been investing in their organisations and making them more

:30:39.:30:42.

efficient. I do not believe a price freeze is linked to job losses.

:30:43.:30:46.

These companies do need to be more efficient. Goal for all of us is

:30:47.:30:50.

realising the fantastic opportunity for more jobs and growth from an

:30:51.:30:54.

energy sector that has certainty going forward. That's what Labour

:30:55.:30:58.

will deliver. Caroline Flint, thank you.

:30:59.:31:00.

It's 1130 and you're watching The Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to

:31:01.:31:04.

viewers in Scotland, who leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland.

:31:05.:31:05.

Coming up here evidence driven policy. I think it

:31:06.:31:15.

is Molly. survey suggests that our future is N

:31:16.:31:37.

Rather than out of Europe. @nd we are knocking to families affected by

:31:38.:31:41.

immigration policy. We are `sking if their government is right to blunt

:31:42.:31:52.

cupids arrow. We hope are two guests will bring some fresh era to our

:31:53.:31:58.

studio after a week of last. Steven Croft from UKIP and Darren Jones,

:31:59.:32:05.

Labour candidate for North West Bristol. We start with the

:32:06.:32:13.

governments attempts to standardise cigarette packaging. Where do you

:32:14.:32:21.

stand on this? I like to go with evidence driven policy whendver

:32:22.:32:32.

possible. There is evidence this will reduce the number of children

:32:33.:32:43.

taking up smoking. Even thehr health of the tobacco industry in Bristol

:32:44.:32:49.

would be overridden. I would rather less children in Bristol took up

:32:50.:32:54.

smoking every year. We need to protect jobs in Bristol and across

:32:55.:32:59.

the country but you need to get the balance. Has UKIP got a polhcy on

:33:00.:33:15.

this? We tend to be opposed to the nanny state in all its forms, but as

:33:16.:33:24.

an ex`smoker I do not think this will harm anybody. Anything that

:33:25.:33:30.

discourages children from t`king up smoking must be good. Peopld who

:33:31.:33:37.

smoke make their decisions on what they smoke at an early age `nd stay

:33:38.:33:44.

loyal. People do not see thd smoke these because they have a lovely

:33:45.:33:53.

locks. It will not harm anybody The debate over leaving Europe came to

:33:54.:33:58.

life this week with a showdown between Nick Clegg and Nigel

:33:59.:34:01.

Farage. Much was made of how our economy with the affected. Today

:34:02.:34:08.

this programme can reveal the results of a survey of firms in the

:34:09.:34:16.

region. First are business correspondent has been lookhng at

:34:17.:34:18.

the numbers. Either you shouldn't. Busindss does

:34:19.:34:24.

not get more international than less. We have got clients from

:34:25.:34:45.

Australia to the United States. 100 people work here writing colputer

:34:46.:34:51.

programmes and safety manuals. It is a huge international trade. The sort

:34:52.:34:55.

of people you would expect to be fully committed to staying hn

:34:56.:34:59.

Europe. I would tick the box for out. The EU is a particular block

:35:00.:35:13.

for this man. People are given a fright in to see if they can out of

:35:14.:35:19.

the EU they cannot do international business. That is rubbish. How many

:35:20.:35:24.

other companies think it is time to leave the EU? Not as many as you

:35:25.:35:30.

might think. Then our survex just 18% were for. Just. That will come

:35:31.:35:43.

as something of a relief to Euro enthusiasts like the Lib Dels. There

:35:44.:35:55.

is a rescue. It is like the debates between Scotland and the rest of the

:35:56.:36:02.

UK. It is a leak of faith. The market remains largely open. You are

:36:03.:36:08.

part of the single market btt have no see over the rules. He whll find

:36:09.:36:15.

support in this industrial dstate. This high`tech firm is worrhed about

:36:16.:36:21.

leaving the EU. We would be worse off. I remember when we used to have

:36:22.:36:27.

huge amounts of documenting processes to get anything exported,

:36:28.:36:31.

where as now it is very simple. They sell all over Europe. This bottle

:36:32.:36:36.

will end up in Greece. This study is destined for Slovenia. Therd are

:36:37.:36:41.

hundreds of companies selling across Europe. Then the survey we

:36:42.:36:46.

discovered that 50% think wd are better then the EU. Do they love

:36:47.:36:52.

Brussels? No. Why not? Becatse of this stuff. It is the oldest

:36:53.:37:00.

complaint in the book and the most common in the survey. Red t`pe they

:37:01.:37:06.

is stifling trade. Although all of our ingredidnts are

:37:07.:37:12.

completely safe we now have two really registered the entird

:37:13.:37:15.

products. It is just the sale ingredients that we have to do a lot

:37:16.:37:19.

more proving. How much will it cost you? This will cost ?250,000 that is

:37:20.:37:26.

a huge amount of money that it is something we have to do. So you back

:37:27.:37:32.

the EU but you do not love this red tape. I wish they would takd more

:37:33.:37:37.

notice of the problems that we suffer a wife and the kind of

:37:38.:37:40.

efforts that we have to go through to meet all these wonderful

:37:41.:37:46.

regulations. No love for Brtssels from business. Instead a rather

:37:47.:37:51.

grudging better in than out. He to digests the figures from this

:37:52.:37:55.

survey is Stephen Robertson on the chairman of business West. What did

:37:56.:38:02.

you make of the findings? What we found was that about 50% of the

:38:03.:38:08.

respondents big and small btsinesses said that on balance they w`nted to

:38:09.:38:14.

stay in the EU. Slightly fewer than 20% said they would be bettdr off if

:38:15.:38:21.

we left. Even that 50% who wanted to stay and were far from happx with

:38:22.:38:27.

everything about Brussels and they had criticisms as your piecd brought

:38:28.:38:36.

to life. Red tape. Waste. Possibly seeing that we need change puickly.

:38:37.:38:41.

All these firms that were asked did they have a stake in Europe? They

:38:42.:38:48.

were a mixture of big and slall and a mixture of exporters,

:38:49.:38:53.

manufacturers, as well as pdople did not export. A whole cross`sdction.

:38:54.:38:57.

Was there any point in asking people who did not export? There is a world

:38:58.:39:05.

be on Europe as well. Steve Crowther, does this law a whole

:39:06.:39:14.

under the water line for yot? I was very encouraged by the pack`ge. The

:39:15.:39:21.

point was made clearly. Gentleman that makes insect repellent said on

:39:22.:39:28.

balance he was like to be in because he remembered all the paperwork

:39:29.:39:33.

Later in the package she is having to rip up the paperwork and spends

:39:34.:39:44.

?250,000 making a new requirements. Vince Cable illuminated this. He

:39:45.:39:48.

says there is a risk. Busindsses are being taught that as a rest. You do

:39:49.:39:54.

not think it is a rest. I do not think there is a risk. Digbx Jones

:39:55.:39:59.

said last year and 24 hours of the UK was withdrawing from the European

:40:00.:40:03.

Union it would have all the trade agreement it needs. Is Labotr going

:40:04.:40:12.

to come out battling for thd EU I was pleased to see this report

:40:13.:40:15.

because it reflects Labour Party policy. We just have to be sensible

:40:16.:40:25.

about this. We cannot resort to the rhetoric that we have seen of the

:40:26.:40:28.

last weeks. This is about pdople 's likelihoods. You are clearlx in and

:40:29.:40:38.

no referendum? If there is ` major transfer of power to Brussels

:40:39.:40:42.

British people will have thd right to see. People are not happx with

:40:43.:40:49.

the EU at the moment. The kdy point here. You look at the Conservative

:40:50.:40:54.

policy that says they will negotiate and have a referendum in 2007. We

:40:55.:40:59.

have said we are for reform in Europe but it has to be a strong

:41:00.:41:04.

button in Europe. Let us go back to the business point of view. Our

:41:05.:41:08.

company is out of step with general public opinion? What businesses are

:41:09.:41:15.

seeing is that this level of uncertainty is hurting us and we

:41:16.:41:19.

need to set this issue quickly. Businesses are looking at the issue

:41:20.:41:23.

from the point of view of m`king sure that bottom line is intuitive

:41:24.:41:28.

from the difficulties. As wd have seen in the debates recentlx the

:41:29.:41:32.

debate is far reaching. I do not think the business element of the

:41:33.:41:38.

debate is either intrusive dnough or secondly I do not think we `re

:41:39.:41:42.

getting firm information from government, from other political

:41:43.:41:45.

parties, to tell us what can be done. Could we have free tr`de

:41:46.:41:50.

agreements and 24 hours? Th`t sounds an extraordinary claim. Digby Jones

:41:51.:41:57.

said it. He used to be head of the CPI. He ought to know what he's

:41:58.:42:02.

talking about. A couple of weeks ago I met a commissioner in Str`sbourg

:42:03.:42:08.

and had an off the record anything. He was under no illusion thdy would

:42:09.:42:15.

play hardball potentials to me. Why cut off their nose to spite your

:42:16.:42:22.

face? We are the biggest export markets. Business does not work like

:42:23.:42:28.

that. That does not how bushness works. Look how long it is taking

:42:29.:42:33.

the EU to set up featuring agreements. It is lagging bdhind

:42:34.:42:42.

Switzerland. We have to press on. What price love? If you want to

:42:43.:42:47.

bring a loved one year from outside Europe the answer is just over

:42:48.:42:51.

?18,000 per year that is wh`t you need to Aaron to make sure xour

:42:52.:42:55.

partner qualifies for a Vis` to come and work with you. `` that hs the

:42:56.:43:03.

salary you need to achieve to make sure your partner qualifies for a

:43:04.:43:09.

Visa. What happens when you fall hn love

:43:10.:43:13.

with someone who has not allowed to live in the UK. That happens to Andy

:43:14.:43:24.

and Molly Russell from Bath. British citizens have to earn ?18,600 to

:43:25.:43:28.

bring their partners you thdy are not from Europe. At the timd and

:43:29.:43:33.

they did not. It meant Mollx had to work in China. They made thhs video

:43:34.:43:41.

to show what it was like. I would come home every evening to

:43:42.:43:48.

the realisation that my wifd is thousands of miles away on her own.

:43:49.:43:55.

The boys were without both their mum and dad. They took it very `ctually.

:43:56.:44:01.

What sort of man cannot keep this family together? But their love

:44:02.:44:08.

story does have happy ending. Andy now has a job paying over the

:44:09.:44:12.

threshold and Molly is a job paying over the threshold and Mollx is

:44:13.:44:15.

allowed to live with her in that system think the policy is cynical.

:44:16.:44:26.

To win votes they are giving the British public what they thhnk the

:44:27.:44:29.

British public want. The newspapers tell us that immigration is a

:44:30.:44:36.

problem. Even one of my colleagues said there is no space. It hs hard

:44:37.:44:43.

to keep a relationship going when you can only communicate online I

:44:44.:44:47.

have spoken to several families in the West to have had to do that

:44:48.:44:51.

That the government says thd new rules are effective in helphng to

:44:52.:44:55.

keep down emigration. The Home Office did not want to be

:44:56.:44:58.

interviewed about these new rules come through because they are

:44:59.:45:01.

currently subject to a legal challenge. That they said:

:45:02.:45:23.

strictly, even to those who have served their country. This lan was

:45:24.:45:29.

born in South Africa but is now British and has been living in

:45:30.:45:34.

Swindon. He served in the British Army for ten years. He did Jews of

:45:35.:45:38.

Afghanistan and Iraq. After being made redundant they had been earning

:45:39.:45:46.

below the threshold. `` the served in Afghanistan and Iraq. Thdy are

:45:47.:45:56.

what drives me. It is a sad situation. It is emotionallx

:45:57.:46:05.

breaking me. I feel so let down It is Conservative Party policx to

:46:06.:46:09.

reduce net migration to the UK to the tens of thousands. Latest

:46:10.:46:13.

figures show emigration rishng. The High Court does decide the new

:46:14.:46:16.

income rules are too strict form the eating that come at harder.

:46:17.:46:22.

Steve Carell you would need a heart of stone to keep a family apart

:46:23.:46:34.

These are sad stories. One of the issues that we see here is that the

:46:35.:46:37.

government is trying to control immigration, but it has both hands

:46:38.:46:44.

tied behind its back. We have open door freedom of movement to all of

:46:45.:46:49.

the citizens of the European Union. All of the difference it can make

:46:50.:46:53.

has to be for Bristol peopld from outside the European Union. If you

:46:54.:46:58.

get when and where can out of Europe then presumably those same

:46:59.:47:01.

restrictions on partners coling would apply if you met someone on an

:47:02.:47:06.

EU country. So if you met someone in France they could not come back and

:47:07.:47:11.

live in England. They would be rules. Of course there would be

:47:12.:47:18.

rules. You could not marry ` new European and bring them back to work

:47:19.:47:23.

in England. I am not saying that. That is the logic. That is not the

:47:24.:47:27.

logic. We need to control immigration and a complex and

:47:28.:47:34.

sensible set of rules that dnable us to simply control the quality and

:47:35.:47:37.

the quantity of people that come to the country. That is how we will

:47:38.:47:40.

manage to maintain public sdrvices. At the moment you cannot brhng

:47:41.:47:46.

somebody back from China. Would that be the scene a few met somebody in

:47:47.:47:53.

Paris or Rome? If we had left the EU? The rules would be the same

:47:54.:47:57.

across the world. That is the point. At the moment we are constantly

:47:58.:48:00.

trying to manipulate statistics over a narrow band of people. With Labour

:48:01.:48:07.

dry to change this? What is this shows is that the Tory government is

:48:08.:48:17.

heartless. The High Court h`s shown a sensible approach to this case by

:48:18.:48:24.

seeing that the level at whhch. . You would relax the rules and drop

:48:25.:48:29.

the ?18,000 threshold. The position in the Labour Party is we agree that

:48:30.:48:32.

taxpayers should not have to take the hit. You see the Tories are

:48:33.:48:38.

being heartless that you will not commit to changing the rules. Let me

:48:39.:48:43.

answer the question. I quickly with the concept. It is the level that I

:48:44.:48:52.

disagree. ?18,000 is too high. The High Court said a similar thing

:48:53.:48:56.

Maybe relieved to look at mhnimum weight level. `` maybe we nded to

:48:57.:49:07.

look at a minimum wage level. Do you accept that petition patients has

:49:08.:49:13.

worn thin because Labour did not have any control over the Borders at

:49:14.:49:20.

all. Ed Miliband has apologhsed because we should have done more. We

:49:21.:49:33.

have to leave it there. The CRB is a long time in politics. He is our

:49:34.:49:41.

rundown in 60 seconds. `` the sea hour week is a long

:49:42.:49:44.

time. Opponents to the policy of killing

:49:45.:49:49.

badgers welcomed the decision to delay the roll out more cal zones. A

:49:50.:49:57.

study concluded that so far the culling had not been effecthve. That

:49:58.:50:00.

has not deterred the farming Minister. We want to focus the

:50:01.:50:06.

improvement on the cal is that we have started and make sure we get

:50:07.:50:10.

the process right before rolling it out further. The Prime Minister was

:50:11.:50:14.

back on the Somerset levels. David Cameron came to see the

:50:15.:50:19.

dredging work he had ordered. It is going to be a continuous process. It

:50:20.:50:25.

is a 20 year plan. To cash`strapped councils receive money to hdlp them

:50:26.:50:31.

merits. Pubs and clubs in Cheltenhal have a

:50:32.:50:35.

new tab to settle. This is only the second place in the country to bring

:50:36.:50:40.

in a late`night levy. The money raised will help to pay for the

:50:41.:50:45.

clean`up. Another busy week. That is `ll we

:50:46.:50:52.

have time for this week. Banksy Steve Crowther and Darren Jones

:50:53.:50:58.

taking part. `` thank you to Steve Crowther.

:50:59.:51:06.

You can keep track of what we're up to on Twitter. We are back

:51:07.:51:08.

chair next week. And with that, back to Andrew. Welcome back and time now

:51:09.:51:22.

to get more from our panel. So they can justify their meagre patents.

:51:23.:51:29.

This cost of living mantra will last all the way until the election.

:51:30.:51:33.

Cannot? Ed Miliband leaves he is onto something and for most of this

:51:34.:51:37.

Parliament, inflation has outstripped wages. That is going to

:51:38.:51:43.

go the other way and wages will rise, to which you say Ed Miliband

:51:44.:51:49.

has nothing to say. He says if you think people are going to feel

:51:50.:51:53.

better in the blink of an eye, you are a Conservative and do not

:51:54.:51:56.

understand the depth of this and he is taking the message from a

:51:57.:52:00.

presidential election in America in 2012 and make Romney was ahead on

:52:01.:52:06.

some of the economic indicators but Barack Obama was ahead on the key

:52:07.:52:10.

one, do you believe this candidate will make your family's life

:52:11.:52:14.

better? The message that Ed Miliband will try to say is the next election

:52:15.:52:21.

is about whose side are you on? And he believes Labour will be on the

:52:22.:52:23.

side of more voters than conservatives. It would be crazy for

:52:24.:52:28.

Labour not to talk about the cost of living because even if wages exceed

:52:29.:52:33.

inflation next year, it is not as if voters will walk around feeling like

:52:34.:52:37.

Imelda Marcos, they will still feel as if they were struggling and not

:52:38.:52:43.

just compared... Retail sales are slowing? That is not the sign of

:52:44.:52:50.

palpable disparity. Circumstances are better than three years ago but

:52:51.:52:56.

not better than five years ago. The Reagan question will still be

:52:57.:53:00.

employed, are you better off than at the last election? But things in

:53:01.:53:05.

America were actually getting worse when he asked that. I covered that

:53:06.:53:11.

election, that is why it resonated and they did get worse. The

:53:12.:53:15.

Ayatollah had quadrupled the price of oil. This is based on things

:53:16.:53:21.

getting relatively better, after a very long wait, so the cost of

:53:22.:53:27.

living critique will have to adapt? It will but it gets out of a very

:53:28.:53:33.

sticky spot and the IFS says wages will not outstrip inflation and by

:53:34.:53:37.

that time they can start talking about other things, plans for the

:53:38.:53:41.

railways and tuition fees and at the moment, everything is up for grabs.

:53:42.:53:45.

Labour know that every time they talk about something they want to

:53:46.:53:49.

do, the question is, how do you pay for it? They can talk about the

:53:50.:53:53.

economy and they don't have substantial things to say. Is it

:53:54.:53:57.

true that Mr Iain Duncan Smith was going to make a major announcement

:53:58.:54:03.

on benefit cheats? Or something to do with that this morning? But he

:54:04.:54:08.

decided against it because of the tobacco over Maria Miller? It would

:54:09.:54:12.

be very odd to go on to The Andrew Marr Show to have a chat and see

:54:13.:54:17.

what he is having for lunch. Patrick went from the Guardian said he was

:54:18.:54:20.

going to set out higher financial penalty phase for providing

:54:21.:54:25.

inaccurate information in claims. This is a bad day to do that, given

:54:26.:54:31.

that MP expenses are treated far more lenient the than any one from

:54:32.:54:37.

Joe public. That would be fascinating, if true. And he is

:54:38.:54:42.

making a very big speech on well for tomorrow and this tweet from Patrick

:54:43.:54:47.

went at the Guardian, he has proper sized on welfare matters and he

:54:48.:54:51.

tends to know what is going on. But it would be deeply unfortunate if

:54:52.:54:56.

that was the message today. How can he make a speech that has anything

:54:57.:54:59.

about cracking down on benefit claimants? Not today but I am not

:55:00.:55:05.

sure tomorrow. Do you get the impression that nobody in both main

:55:06.:55:12.

parties is very confident of winning in 2015? I column last week said the

:55:13.:55:16.

result, the most likely result from one year on is another hung

:55:17.:55:21.

parliament and which government results from that depends on the

:55:22.:55:26.

mathematical specifics of whether the Tories can do a deal as well as

:55:27.:55:29.

Labour, leaving everything in the hands of Nick Clegg or whether one

:55:30.:55:33.

party can do a straightforward deal but I do not detect any sense of

:55:34.:55:38.

exuberance or confidence in either camp. And the Tories are still

:55:39.:55:44.

shooting themselves over losing the boundary commission reforms because

:55:45.:55:47.

that was going to net them 20 seats and they lost that because they

:55:48.:55:51.

messed up the House of Lords reform and there are still furious with

:55:52.:55:54.

themselves. The former US President, George W Bush, has been a busy boy

:55:55.:55:58.

and here at the Sunday Politics we thought you'd like to see the

:55:59.:56:02.

results of his artistic endeavours. Time for the gallery.

:56:03.:56:06.

I was a prize to find myself saying, some of these are not bad! --

:56:07.:56:54.

surprised. Vladimir Putin? I like the one of Tony Blair but his early

:56:55.:57:01.

ones of dogs, to be in the presence of the master is to see his portrait

:57:02.:57:07.

of a Joanne Love. He is not of the Turner prize but I was surprised. He

:57:08.:57:12.

gets the mask of Vladimir Putin also Tony Blair. I was impressed

:57:13.:57:18.

that he did not allow personal or political grudges to influence his

:57:19.:57:22.

artwork. Jacques Chirac, he comes out of this incredibly well! And

:57:23.:57:27.

Angela Merkel comes out astonishingly well. Quite generous

:57:28.:57:33.

as well. Tony Blair is the best one and the reason is he had the closest

:57:34.:57:38.

relationship with them and he has talked about this portrait, saying

:57:39.:57:42.

he was quite fond of him and you can see that. These are awful, they

:57:43.:57:47.

would not get you an A-level but you must admire him to have the guts to

:57:48.:57:54.

do this, and display them publicly! An A-level? Just doing joined up

:57:55.:58:00.

numbers gets you that these days! What do you do when you retire? This

:58:01.:58:05.

is less embarrassing than some of the other things people have done.

:58:06.:58:09.

As good as Churchill? I don't know... No! Churchill was brilliant!

:58:10.:58:17.

And on that! That's all for today. Tune into BBC Two every day at

:58:18.:58:20.

lunchtime this week for the Daily Politics. And we'll be back at the

:58:21.:58:24.

later time of 2:30pm next Sunday after the London Marathon. Remember,

:58:25.:58:27.

if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:58:28.:59:55.

International teams searching for the missing Malaysian airliner are

:59:56.:59:58.

investigating three electronic signals received in the southern

:59:59.:00:04.

Indian Ocean. It's thought

:00:05.:00:05.

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