13/04/2014 Sunday Politics West


13/04/2014

Andrew Neil and David Garmston with political news. Including a debate ahead of the European elections with members of UKIP, Labour, the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats.


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Aternoon folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics. As MPs head off for

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their Easter break, campaigning for the European elections in six weeks'

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time gets underway. In a Sunday Politics special, we'll debate the

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issues at stake on May 22nd with senior party figures from the

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Conservatives, Labour, Liberal Democrats, and UKIP. And as ever

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we'll be discussing the week ahead with our panel of top political

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In the West, he said he would run commentators.

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In the West, he said he would run the greenest government ever, but

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after controversy over fracking and nuclear power, have

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newspapers which some claim are politically slanted and not

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impartial about informing people of local services.

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So all that to come between now and quarter to four and for the next

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thirty minutes or so we'll be debating the European elections

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Here in the studio we have Syed Kamall, leader of the Conservatives

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in the European Parliament, Richard Howitt, chair of the Labour group of

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MEPs, Sarah Ludford, deputy leader of the Lib Dems in Europe, and

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Patrick O'Flynn, UKIP's director of communications. Welcome to you all.

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In a moment, all four will give us their opening pitch for the

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elections. A little earlier they drew lots to decide who'll go first.

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And that privilege goes to Syed Before that, though, here's a quick

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reminder of what all the fuss is about.

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The vote to choose members of the European Parliament takes place on

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Thursday the 22nd of May. The same day as local elections are held in

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England and Northern Ireland. The UK sends 73

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England and Northern Ireland. The UK sends NTP is to Brussels. And the

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vote is a form of proportional representation. In total, there are

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751 MEPs from the 28 member states. What do they do all day? The

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European Parliament's power has grown. A vet of the EU commissioners

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and they can amend, approve or reject nearly all EU legislation and

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the EU budget. Some laws MEPs have been responsible for include price

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caps on mobile phone chargers, banking regulation and cover food

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regulation two -- labelling. Syed Kamall, you have 30 seconds.

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Europe cannot go on as it is. Europe needs to change. And our

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relationship with Europe needs to change. Only the Conservatives have

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a plan to deliver that change and of the British people and in-out

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referendum. Labour and the Lib Dems will not and UKIP simply cannot

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Only the Conservatives will offer the three yards, with Conservative

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MEPs working alongside a conservative Prime Minister. For,

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really is and above all a referendum. Sarah Ludford is next.

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Your choice is simple. If you think Britain is better off in Europe

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vote for the Liberal Democrats. The Lib Dems are the only party of Ian,

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fighting to keep Britain in Europe and in work. There is nothing

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patriotic about UKIP's desire to pull-out. That is playing Russian

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roulette with Britain's economy and jobs. The Conservatives are flirting

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with exit and Labour lacks the courage to speak up. Thought Liberal

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Democrat on May the 22nd to say in Europe for jobs and security. Sarah

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Ludford. Next, Richard Howitt from Labour. The European elections are

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about who represents you. They are not a referendum on a referendum.

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Labour MEPs believe in putting jobs and growth first. A guarantee to

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help young people into work, reforming energy markets so that

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bills are brought down for good Labour believes in reform in Europe,

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but within. It is David Cameron who is risking your job and Britain s

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prosperity because of divisions in his own party. Labour MEPs put

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British interests first. Our fourth opening statement from Patrick

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O'Flynn. The EU is old hat. It is a declining regional trade bloc in an

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era of global trade. It is a 20th-century political project

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designed to prevent conflict in Europe that is now reawakening old

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hostilities. It is an attempt to force on the European people

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European this as their primary collective identity. It has hollowed

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out British democracy and now we do not even control our own borders.

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That is why you should vote UKIP. That is the opening statements.

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Let's get on with the debate. Why should people vote in the

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selections? If you vote UKIP, we can deliver an earthquake that will rock

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the foundations of British politics and the European political class. We

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can send a signal to Europe that Britain has had enough, that Britain

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wants to retain its nation state status and regain political power

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and the ability to forge trading deals across the world. Britain

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leading Europe to freedom twice in the last century through bloodshed.

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We feel that a UKIP win in those elections could help Britain set an

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example to lead European nation states back to free assembly again.

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Syed Kamall, isn't it the case that many Tory voters will vote you clip

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to keep you honest, to keep your feet to the fire? Whatever you think

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of the European Parliament or the EU, the fact is that the European

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Parliament as equal power with the 28 governments of the EU. When David

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Cameron delivered the first cut to the EU budget, the first ever cut,

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he needed a strong team of Conservative MEPs working alongside

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him. But many of your supporters will vote for UKIP for the reasons I

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gave. Many will vote Liberal Democrat. Not very many. Many of our

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supporters will vote for us because we are the only party trying to

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change the EU and offer reform. We have offered renegotiation and a

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referendum. And how would you vote in such a referendum? We have no

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idea whether he would vote yes or no. Let him answer. I will answer

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that question. If the EU continues on this road, towards a United

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States of Europe, and if there was no change at the time of the

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referendum, then I would probably vote to leave. You have no

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confidence in David Cameron? We Javier Culson opportunity to read

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negotiate our relationship with Europe and the Conservatives are at

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the forefront of that agenda. David Cameron have not given a list of

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demands. He said that if things do not change, he will probably vote to

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leave, is that right? If at the time of the referendum, things had not

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changed, I would vote to leave and we have a golden opportunity to

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perform the agenda. Richard, the last time the British people had a

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say on this was over 40 years ago. Under a Labour government. Which was

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deeply divided on the issue. And that was a say on the common market.

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Today's EU is a very different animal from the common market. Why

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can we not, under another Labour government, have another vote? First

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of all, we want it to be more than a free trading area. We make no

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apologies about that. But in the elections because this is half of

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Britain's exports and investment. If you care about your job and

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business, you cannot hear from the party of government that they

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probably want you to leave because the CBI, the engineering employees

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in Federation and the chimp of commerce, 80% of them say it is

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necessary to stay in. So why not give us a vote? When David Cameron

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says he wants to repatriate social powers, he means takeaway maternity

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rights and holidays. If the case is so strong, why not give us an in-out

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vote? David Miliband has said that there will be a referendum if there

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was a proposal to change powers Why wait? This is based on a series of

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reforms. Labour has a set of reforms. David Cameron is silent

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about what they would be. That is because he knows that if he put them

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forward, they would either be unsatisfactory to his Eurosceptic

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backbenchers and he would be out of a job, or they would be unacceptable

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to European leaders. Why is your leader missing in action? Ed

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Miliband is unable to say even the positive things that you are saying.

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He has run away from the argument. He actually said there would not be

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a referendum in his time. For a conservative to say they will

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have a referendum but not give the reforms, it is a mistake. Nick Clegg

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gave Nigel Farage a huge opportunity in that debate. He said that the

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Eurosceptic view was to leave Britain like Billy no mates. I can

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say that he is the best qualified person to say that. Sarah Ludford,

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you have said that lots of people are going to vote Lib Dem but that

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is not what the polls are saying. You are 7% in two polls this

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morning. Eclectic's decision to champion Europe has been a disaster

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for you. You face wet out. We swayed a lot of people our way with Nick

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Clegg's debate. Where is the evidence? We are the only party that

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is completely united, saying that we are wanting to stay in. It is

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essential because formally and jobs are supported by our trade with the

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EU. Linked to the EU. We are finding a lot of moderate conservative

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voters are actually fed up with the Tories being split and divided all

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over the place. Syed Kamall saying that we might vote in rout. -- in or

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out. We are consistent. A poll in London showed that 18% would vote

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for us. I am delighted about that. London is not the whole country it

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may surprise you. We need to move on to immigration, an important issue.

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We are a member of the EU and the rules say that with a few caveats,

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our fellow EU citizens are free to come here if they want. Why can we

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not just accept that? Britain has a proud record when it comes to

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immigration. We have been open to people across the world for

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centuries. But we welcome people who come to our country to contribute to

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pay taxes and two wards are a society positively. But there are

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three real concerns that we have to address. The first one is numbers,

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and secondly people who may come here not to work but for benefits,

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and thirdly, getting a hang of the numbers. I think it is shameful that

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only this week the office for National said that they did not

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collect sufficient figures under a Labour government. 350,000 extra

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people came in and they did not count the numbers. That is the size

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of a city like Cardiff. That is shameful. 350,000 came from all over

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the place. Do you accept the free movement of peoples within the EU? I

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accept and am open to people who want to come here and contribute. In

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the same way... Do you accept the free movement of peoples within the

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EU? In our manifesto, we have said it is an issue for reform. We have

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to make sure that people are coming here to work and contribute

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positively, not simply to come here and take advantage of the system. I

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will tell you what else is shameful. What is shameful is David

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Cameron making a pledge to the British people on an issue that they

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really care about, to bring net immigration down to the tens of

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thousands a year, having no means of fulfilling that pledge. And we see

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now it is back up to 212,000 a year because we have no volume control

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and no quality control from immigration from our neighbours And

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that is a disgrace. How could UKIP address that issue? Because we would

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leave the EU. How? Tell me how. You do not have a single member of

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Parliament. He will not get a single member of Parliament. How are

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you... ? TUC are hoping to get an MEP. What do you say? -- he is here

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today hoping to get an MEP. All of -- almost 2 million Brits live and

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work in the rest of the EU. Is that worth having? The majority are

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wealthy, retired people. Why do not object to bilateral agreements with

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countries with similar living standards to us. France, the

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Netherlands, that works fine. But these three people want Turkey to

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join the EU, 75 Na Li and people running our country, only 10% of

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which... Syed Kamall is Michael year to say whether they are in favour of

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free movement for work, not for benefits... That is what I'm

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saying. You said you were unable to be clear. That leaves 2 million

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British people absolutely unsure as to whether they would have a right

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to continue to live in other countries. It is a two-way street.

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You are putting those people in a state of uncertainty. EU migrants

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have been good for the British economy and contribute far more than

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they take out in services and benefits. One in seven businesses

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were founded in -- by migrants. And they cannot just turn up and claim

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benefits. The coalition government has legislated to make sure that

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they cannot claim for three months. They will not be able to claim for

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more than six months. Richard Howitt, Jack Straw said it was A

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spectacular mistake for Labour to allow EU migrants from Poland and

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Hungary to work in the UK from 2004." Why should we trust a party

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that makes spectacular mistakes and hasn't apologised for it? We accept

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it is a mistake and I apologise We make a firm commitment for new EU

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states we will put down transitional controls. When I listen to the

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Conservatives and UKIP trying to re-write history, saying immigration

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was out of control, uncontrolled, open door, we hear it over and over

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again. It is not true. Anyone who was around at the time... Come on,

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Richard. Hold on, you undercounted by 350,000. You were letting 2

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million in over the years, an under-counted by 350,000 people you

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didn't know came in. You should have tightened the benefit rules. The

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Conservative MEP today has, in four years in government in Britain, is

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trying it blame the previous Labour Government over the fact they won't

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count people in or people out. Yvette Cooper - it is not easy for

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people to come to the country and benefits are changing, changing the

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habitual residence test and we are going to say that migrants can't

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come and claim child benefit if their children are outside the

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country. Labour a has shown they have listened to concerns but we say

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it is a stronger, better, country because it is diverse and

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multicultural snoo.d this is fantasy politics from all the Peters. They

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are committed to a system with no volume control and no quality

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control. You talk about benefits as if it is only out of work benefits.

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In work benefits cost a lot of money for the British taxpayer. Big

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businesses bring in minimum wage workers. It is ?5,000 per perschool

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place What are you going to do? Have all the pensioners come back to

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Britain? How will will you fund the health care? Do you really think

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Spain and pour tu ghal their current situation, are going to turn their

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backs on British property owners with wealth? -- Portugal. They might

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not wanting pensioners to use their health service. Pensioners often

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come back to Britain to use the health service. You have shown it

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represents wealthy people's interests. A second Conservative

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Party. Hang on a minute... Blue collar wages were down. They want it

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character for the National Health Service, have cuts that go farther

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and comprehensive education. This is a debate on the wider politics

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between Conservatives and UKIP and Labour will... You can't both talk

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time. UKIP - they haven't thought it through, thousand they will have

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trade access in the EU, hasn't thought how they will have trade

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deals that the Liberal Democrats support, like with the United

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States: Would you have a cap on non-EU immigrants? We are not in

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favour of a cap. No cap on either. No. Well it is a target. It is a

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moving feast, as it were. Would you have a limit on non-EU limits? We

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have limits on quality. We have people who are skilled migrants

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coming in. Lip its? . By quality, not by quantity. -- Limits.

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How do you do that? We need to move on to foreign affairs.

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Should we pool more sovereignty to give the European Union more clout

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in foreign and defence matters? I'm Labour's defence and foreign affairs

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spokesperson. No we don't need to pull more powers into Europe. As we

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undertake this live debate there are guns being fired in Ukraine as we

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speak. Europe is facing, for the first time, since the end of the

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Second World War, Armies crossing national borders and floatening

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peace. Doesn't it -- threatening peace. Doesn't it need to come

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together of the We don't need more powers. We need political will. With

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Vladimir Putin, in my view, he has -- we have fallen short in the

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sanctions. But it is Europe, not Britain. Remember Putin calling

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Britain little England a small island with no influence. Labour

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doesn't agree with that. But if that's the mindset that allows

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someone like Vladimir Putin to send troops across borders threatening

:19:44.:19:46.

peace, it is worrying. And when we have, in UKIP a party that say they

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admire Putin and support his policies, that is no recipe for how

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Europe should be wrong. I was waiting for that. Let me ask him. We

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don't admire Putin as a leader. . Oh. No we don't. What Nigel Farage

:20:01.:20:08.

said, was he admired him as a political operator. Testifies

:20:09.:20:11.

Franklin D Roosevelt who said a good foreign policy was speaking softly

:20:12.:20:17.

but carrying a big stick. The EU shouts its mouthed off while

:20:18.:20:22.

carrying a matchstick. It is fantasy that you wiebl it stand up to Putin

:20:23.:20:26.

over the Ukraine. -- that you would be able to stand up. Do you admire

:20:27.:20:30.

what Putin is doing in the Ukraine? No. What matters in foreign policy

:20:31.:20:35.

is the outcould. We have a terrible outcome in the Ukraine, like Syria,

:20:36.:20:40.

and Georgia... What would UKIP do? What u skip would do, would be to

:20:41.:20:46.

keep our people safe -- UKIP. How? And not commit our Foreign

:20:47.:20:52.

Office and troops Foreign wars. Patrick O'Flynn. You brought up this

:20:53.:20:57.

issue of foreign wars. Now Nigel Farage said in previous debates that

:20:58.:21:01.

Britain should leave the EU because, "We have had enough of endless

:21:02.:21:06.

foreign wars." Which wars has the EU taken us into? The EU has ban very

:21:07.:21:11.

important factor in the push towards trying to get military intervention

:21:12.:21:19.

in Syria, for example. What wars has the etch U taken us into it -- EU.

:21:20.:21:24.

Fortunately the EU doesn't have its own army yet. It has wanted to sign

:21:25.:21:32.

up to an expansionist agenda. Did it want Iraq? No, that was Labour. UKIP

:21:33.:21:37.

opposed Iraq, so did most of the mainline Europeans. Germany was

:21:38.:21:42.

against Syria and Libya. No EU policy. We had an Anglo French deal

:21:43.:21:49.

on Syria. A by lateral deal. A European dimension. No, buy lateral.

:21:50.:21:54.

We have a European Union that wants to expand ever-more into other

:21:55.:21:59.

people's spheres of influence. If we are going to stand up to what Putin

:22:00.:22:04.

is do, which obviously Nigel Farage has no intentions of doing, you have

:22:05.:22:09.

to get your act together on economic sanctions and diplomatic force and

:22:10.:22:13.

in trade matters, in supporting eastern European countries. Sayeria,

:22:14.:22:20.

who and whose army? And NATO and working transatlanticically, is

:22:21.:22:23.

important through NATO. I will come to you in a moment. Nick Clegg said

:22:24.:22:29.

that the idea of an EU Army was "A dangerous fantasy that is simply not

:22:30.:22:34.

true ""Why then, are we already working on etch U-owned and

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controlled drones -- EU-owned and the President of the European

:22:40.:22:41.

Parliament has said that the majority of MEPs want the EU to have

:22:42.:22:48.

"deployable troops." He is not speaking for me or Liberal

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Democrats. The EU does not and will not have an army. Our defence is

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mainly shaped through NATO. He is President of the Parliament What we

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must do is to get equipment which can operate together. We waste an

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awful lot of our spending in Europe because we duplicate equipment. We

:23:05.:23:08.

don't get the bang for our bucks that we should. It is a useful role

:23:09.:23:13.

for the EU, to get equipment working together. That doesn't make sense.

:23:14.:23:17.

You say military equipment, a NATO job. No, the EU, there is a kind of

:23:18.:23:23.

dimension of the EU members of NATO, in working together on a common

:23:24.:23:29.

quument o o so they can talk to each other -- on common equipment, so

:23:30.:23:33.

they can talk to each other. The EU has a role but not an army. So a

:23:34.:23:37.

European defence agency, that helps our defence industries and those

:23:38.:23:41.

jobs are extremely important and would be threatened if the

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Conservatives and UKIP took us out of Europe but it is 100 years since

:23:45.:23:50.

the start of the fist world war Remember that Europe was set up to

:23:51.:23:54.

try to get a secure peace within Europe T succeeded. Now look on

:23:55.:23:58.

Ukraine but also on the southern borders to the Arab Spring countries

:23:59.:24:01.

in North Africa. It is more important than ever that we work to

:24:02.:24:06.

keep keep peace and stability on our borders. Can I say to Syed and the

:24:07.:24:11.

Conservative MEPs. You talk about the three Rs, I have a fourth,

:24:12.:24:15.

retreat. If you take us out of the European Union, it will be the worse

:24:16.:24:22.

retreat by Britain since Gallipoli. Let him answer If he wants answers

:24:23.:24:26.

-- the British Parliament is the right place with a British Foreign

:24:27.:24:29.

Secretary to decide our foreign policy. You say that, but can I

:24:30.:24:35.

quote David Cameron, this is germain to what you are saying, David

:24:36.:24:39.

Cameron said "There is no doubt that we are more powerful than

:24:40.:24:43.

Washington, Beijing and Delhi, because we are a powerful player in

:24:44.:24:47.

the European Union." Do you agree? He is saying that there are times

:24:48.:24:50.

when it comes to international foreign affairs when you have to

:24:51.:24:54.

cooperate with partners. Often they are EU partners but often they are

:24:55.:24:59.

not. The problem we have... Washington have made it very clear

:25:00.:25:04.

that it wants Britain to talk through Brussels. No, not at all.

:25:05.:25:09.

Talk through the French and Italians, come on, wake up? Through

:25:10.:25:15.

the EU collective. I'm vice chair of the EU delegation. I hear it from

:25:16.:25:18.

the American counterparts. They want the EU to get itself together and

:25:19.:25:23.

not least on Ukraine. Why should our sovereignty be at the behest of .. ?

:25:24.:25:28.

I want to hear from Syed calm amplgts the British Parliament is

:25:29.:25:31.

the right place to decide our foreign poll sinchts sometimes we

:25:32.:25:34.

work with our European partners sometimes we work with our

:25:35.:25:38.

non-European partners. It is our choice to pull sovereign trito work

:25:39.:25:44.

together. G, we move on to our foirt area. We hear a lot in this country

:25:45.:25:50.

about MPs expenses. Snted the real scan dalt MEPs gravy train. -- isn't

:25:51.:25:56.

the real scandal, the MEPs gravy train? You all have your snouts The

:25:57.:26:03.

trough? I don't think so. There is transpancy. The way we use our

:26:04.:26:08.

expenses is online and anyone can ask to examine those. We have

:26:09.:26:12.

actually voted to reform MEPs' allowances. We regularly vote but

:26:13.:26:17.

unfortunately the majority in Parliament don't. Have you voted to

:26:18.:26:22.

cut them? Yes. By how much? About 5%. A 5% We hoped to have economies

:26:23.:26:28.

I never fly except across the Atlantic. Difficult to do it any

:26:29.:26:34.

other way. I didn't swim. But we voted for economy flutes We

:26:35.:26:40.

voted for European Parliament policy of transparency which other groups

:26:41.:26:45.

haven't. UKIP don't turn up to vote. They don't earn their salaries.

:26:46.:26:49.

Dhoent do anything. They should hand their salaries and allowances back.

:26:50.:26:54.

You can't ause UKIP of being on the gravy train and the other that we

:26:55.:26:58.

don't claim our attendance allowance because our MEPs are not there. Your

:26:59.:27:04.

attendance allowance is if you are there, you are saying we don't turn

:27:05.:27:07.

up You are in the building and claim the allowances. You are not an MEP,

:27:08.:27:11.

UKIP are so ashamed of what their MEPs have done in Brussels, they

:27:12.:27:16.

didn't field a sitting MEP for today's debate. I think each party

:27:17.:27:21.

decides who it wishes to field. I have the honour of being the UKIP

:27:22.:27:25.

representative. I would say by going in the past few weeks, xeeming to me

:27:26.:27:31.

saying - we are sick of the others. -- people saying to me. : We are

:27:32.:27:38.

quite excited. Can I ask Patrick O'Flynn. He says he touched a chord

:27:39.:27:42.

and his party is strong in the polls today, between 18% and 20%. Haven't

:27:43.:27:48.

you also struck a chord with hip crasscy. Two of your MEPs were

:27:49.:27:53.

jailed for expenses and benefits' fraud. Two more asked to pay back

:27:54.:27:58.

?37,000 for using European funds. Nigel Farage has boosted about

:27:59.:28:02.

getting ?2 million in expenses and he went on to employ his wife as a

:28:03.:28:06.

secretarial allowance after telling other members not to People who do

:28:07.:28:11.

wrong and break the law, go to ja. I have no time. -- go to jail. People

:28:12.:28:16.

who spend money they are not entitled to should pay it back and

:28:17.:28:20.

that's right. But what UKIP does and the good UKIP MEPs do, is use the

:28:21.:28:25.

allowances they are given to pursue the political agenda they put up

:28:26.:28:28.

when elected which is to get Britain out of this superstate. Instead of

:28:29.:28:32.

using it for parliamentary work Very interesting. Richard Howitt. We

:28:33.:28:38.

were the first British political party to have independent audits of

:28:39.:28:43.

our MEPs' expenses, from 1990, way before the expenses crisis blew up.

:28:44.:28:50.

The Maria Miller scandal has of course hit David Cameron and the

:28:51.:28:52.

Conservative Party hard as it should do. But you are right, even in my

:28:53.:28:57.

own region you have UKIP candidates and councillors who have been

:28:58.:29:00.

charged with fraudulently filling out election papers and other shot

:29:01.:29:05.

lifting. Another independent inquiry found he made racist comments. We

:29:06.:29:10.

had a European candidate last week in Hertfordshire who got a parking

:29:11.:29:14.

ticket from the police and called the police fascists. These people

:29:15.:29:20.

aren't here. I'll let you have a quick reply We

:29:21.:29:25.

can bring up parochial cases. Let him answer. Not so long ago a

:29:26.:29:28.

Liberal Democrat councillor was sent down for firebombing, I don't say

:29:29.:29:33.

they are a bunch of arsonists, but now I think, Nick Clegg might have

:29:34.:29:39.

burnt some cactuses, once. I'm glad you pronounced that word carefully.

:29:40.:29:45.

Syed Kemal, the EU's auditors, they are strongly critical of the EU s

:29:46.:29:51.

financials saying "Errors permist in all main spending areas", the

:29:52.:29:57.

financials are poorly managed. It is a shambles And that's something that

:29:58.:30:03.

all parties agree on. As we agree on expenses, the British parties are at

:30:04.:30:07.

the forefront of transpancy. Every year when we vote for the discharge

:30:08.:30:10.

of the budget, the Conservatives also vote for it but we don't get

:30:11.:30:14.

enough MEPs from other countries to investigate in favour. The Liberal

:30:15.:30:18.

Democrats have put forward to make each Finance Minister, George

:30:19.:30:22.

Osborne and his counterpart to sign a declaration to say all EU money is

:30:23.:30:27.

properly spent in my country. Funnily enough they don't want to do

:30:28.:30:32.

that but I look forward to you confirming that George Osborne will

:30:33.:30:36.

sign it. All the time we hear it is about the money we pay in, about

:30:37.:30:41.

?150 per family per year. What about the money that comes back? ?1.

:30:42.:30:46.

billion that comes to Britain's regions because of being in Europe.

:30:47.:30:51.

I myself helped to negotiate a fund to help Britain's food banks to

:30:52.:30:55.

ensure so. Poorest and most destitute people... Isn't it our

:30:56.:30:59.

money that went there first. Can I tell you the Conservative-led

:31:00.:31:02.

Government have blocked us from claiming that money. If you want to

:31:03.:31:06.

have the clearest choice at these European elections, it is between...

:31:07.:31:15.

Tell us why. It affects our rebate. Tony Blair gave away our rebate He

:31:16.:31:23.

is quite right. Lib Dems fought to make sure that we apply for money to

:31:24.:31:27.

help with flooding. That is what the Tories were blocking. If you want

:31:28.:31:30.

the clearest example at the European elections, the Conservative Party

:31:31.:31:34.

and MEPs blocked the cap on bankers bonuses, and then blocked a Labour

:31:35.:31:40.

victory to get money for free banks. We need to move on to the

:31:41.:31:47.

future. It is important and people are watching. The EU's Justice

:31:48.:31:52.

Minister says that we need to build a United States of Europe with the

:31:53.:31:56.

commission as its government. Is she right? Not at all. But the future,

:31:57.:32:04.

if we take the next ten years, thinks about climate change and the

:32:05.:32:08.

fact that we are not going to hit of the two degrees target. Europe has

:32:09.:32:13.

led and needs to lead towards getting a new sustainable world It

:32:14.:32:16.

is the political will to use these powers, so she is wrong. It is about

:32:17.:32:19.

the threats from abroad. Labour reforms like getting a commissioner

:32:20.:32:24.

for growth and rebalancing the budget, reforming the common

:32:25.:32:28.

agricultural policy, all of those things will need to happen to make

:32:29.:32:33.

Europe more democratic and open But against the rise of Brazil and

:32:34.:32:40.

China... We do not need more treaties and powers. We need more

:32:41.:32:45.

action with more Labour MEPs. Sarah Ludford, you would sign up to that?

:32:46.:32:50.

No. Unless they do not think that should concentrate on institutional

:32:51.:32:55.

matters. What we need to do is concentrate on making Europe

:32:56.:33:00.

progrowth and competitive and create more jobs in a competitive world. We

:33:01.:33:07.

need more trade deals to open up our exports, we need to streamline the

:33:08.:33:12.

EU. We need less red tape and Liberal Democrats have done a lot on

:33:13.:33:16.

that. We need better scrutiny of EU legislation at West Munster because

:33:17.:33:20.

the national parties... More powers or less for the EU government? In

:33:21.:33:28.

some areas, I would like to see it slimmed down. Including, I am not

:33:29.:33:36.

sure whether the EU should be funding food banks. I think that is

:33:37.:33:39.

a national responsibility. Dearie me. The EU have to concentrate on

:33:40.:33:46.

the economy and climate change. This is the coalition talking. If we want

:33:47.:33:51.

to fritter away political capital on things which are interfering in

:33:52.:33:56.

national matters, then we do not have the support to tackle those big

:33:57.:33:59.

challenges. Would you still want to join the Euro one-day? Now is not a

:34:00.:34:07.

good idea. We wanted the Eurozone to still be sound, which is why... Did

:34:08.:34:13.

not ask you that. Do you want to join the Euro one-day? If it is a

:34:14.:34:16.

success and it did the economy. Now is not the time but in principle,

:34:17.:34:22.

the idea of a single currency has advantages. That was a yes. We are

:34:23.:34:29.

not ruling it out for ever but not in the foreseeable future. It is not

:34:30.:34:33.

on the horizon. What would our relationship be with Europe in the

:34:34.:34:37.

future if UKIP got its way and we left? We would be trading partners

:34:38.:34:42.

with Europe and we would seek partnership in specific serious I'd

:34:43.:34:46.

tell you what, can I just say.. Would we be Norway? We would be

:34:47.:34:51.

stronger than Norway because we are the biggest export market in the

:34:52.:34:57.

Eurozone. We can negotiate a bespoke trading agreement reflecting our

:34:58.:35:01.

enormous importance. Not on services, which make up 80% of the

:35:02.:35:05.

economy. We are the biggest export market in the Eurozone. Our biggest

:35:06.:35:09.

exports are services and they would have to agree to free trade and

:35:10.:35:14.

services. They still have not. Can I read you something? Let me read you

:35:15.:35:20.

something. There would be a free trade agreement in place the day

:35:21.:35:24.

after our exit. Germany would demand no less. Who said that? Not somebody

:35:25.:35:30.

from UKIP, but Digby Jones. Mr business. He is talking about

:35:31.:35:34.

goods, not services. Norway has that and they have no say. You would have

:35:35.:35:38.

to accept the EU rules without any say. No MEPs are commissioners. Let

:35:39.:35:45.

me give you another. Enough. One is enough. Syed Kamall, is it not

:35:46.:35:53.

looking forward pretty much Mission: Impossible for Mr Cameron to get

:35:54.:35:56.

anything like the repatriations of powers that would satisfy your

:35:57.:36:06.

irreconcilables? My father was a bus driver in the 50s and one of the

:36:07.:36:09.

reasons I am here today is because he told me that you can achieve

:36:10.:36:12.

anything if you work hard. He said to me, do not listen to the

:36:13.:36:16.

doubters. When people tell you that something cannot be done, it is a

:36:17.:36:19.

sign of their limitations, not yours. They said that we could not

:36:20.:36:23.

pull Britain out of the bailout mechanism but we did it. He said we

:36:24.:36:29.

could not be to a -- veto European treaty and we did that. They said we

:36:30.:36:32.

would never cut the budget and we did that. The first ever. But

:36:33.:36:37.

overall, we are paying more into the European budget. And they are not

:36:38.:36:43.

sticking to it. More, not less. They say that we cannot achieve reform

:36:44.:36:47.

but we have achieved reform and we are at the forefront of that.

:36:48.:36:52.

Science's father came to Britain because Britain was open and looking

:36:53.:36:59.

outward. What the Conservatives now have, with leaderless Cameron, is an

:37:00.:37:07.

inward looking attitude. They are allowing the rise of UKIP. They are

:37:08.:37:12.

putting so much at risk. People should vote Labour. We are going to

:37:13.:37:18.

have to stop now. No point talking because we are about to finish. I

:37:19.:37:21.

think you all for a spirited debate. I'm sure Nigel Fries and Mr Clegg

:37:22.:37:26.

will have learned a lot about how to debate. -- Nigel Farage.

:37:27.:37:29.

It's just gone 3pm, and you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say

:37:30.:37:32.

goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics

:37:33.:37:35.

Scotland. Coming up here in twenty minutes, the

:37:36.:37:45.

Scotland. Coming up here in twenty Good afternoon to you and wdlcome to

:37:46.:37:48.

the later edition of the Sunday Politics here in the West Country.

:37:49.:37:51.

Coming up, we will examine the Government's promised to be the

:37:52.:37:54.

greenest on record. The Prile Minister went to the Arctic to show

:37:55.:37:58.

just how green he was beford the last election, but after backing

:37:59.:38:01.

fracking and going nuclear hn Somerset, his opponents clahm it was

:38:02.:38:06.

just green wash. Our guests this afternoon are the Liberal Ddmocrat

:38:07.:38:10.

MP Tessa Munt and Molly Scott Cato who is the Green candidate hn the

:38:11.:38:15.

European elections. More from them in a moment. Let's turn our

:38:16.:38:21.

attention to trust in polithcians. On the same day that Maria Liller

:38:22.:38:24.

resigned from Cabinet over her expenses, a Bristol MP was `lso in

:38:25.:38:28.

hot water over her parliamentary paperwork. The Conservative

:38:29.:38:33.

Charlotte Leslie failed to record the nation Star constituencx

:38:34.:38:35.

association in the register of members' interests. `` faildd to

:38:36.:38:44.

record donations. Charlotte Leslie offered this apology.

:38:45.:38:46.

Although I'm registered dyslexic and sought to put in place additional

:38:47.:38:49.

administrative support as a result, I take complete responsibilhty for

:38:50.:38:52.

this. I'm unspeakably sorry that despite all the efforts I m`de as a

:38:53.:38:56.

new MP to get things right, I have nevertheless made this very serious

:38:57.:39:03.

error. And I want to reiter`te my heartfelt apologies to the House and

:39:04.:39:06.

have sought the earliest possible opportunity to do so.

:39:07.:39:10.

She now faces an investigathon by the Standards Commissioner which

:39:11.:39:13.

could last months. She's also called on Parliament to offer new LPs more

:39:14.:39:19.

support when they take office. When you first come into Parliament

:39:20.:39:23.

as a new MP, you don't have an office, you often struggle to find a

:39:24.:39:26.

secretary, you have to find somewhere to live, you have to find

:39:27.:39:30.

a constituency office, therd is a lot going on. I had a brand`new

:39:31.:39:33.

secretary who had never dond this before either. I was new, she was

:39:34.:39:37.

new. It would be useful at that point have someone who is

:39:38.:39:40.

experienced, perhaps a civil servant, just in that first month to

:39:41.:39:44.

take MPs through and just m`ke sure that right at the outset whdn

:39:45.:39:47.

everybody is new that things are done as they need to be dond and

:39:48.:39:50.

guide people through. Tessa Munt, you were a new LP in

:39:51.:39:54.

2010. Are things really that complicated?

:39:55.:39:56.

I think they are unnecessarhly bureaucratic. I think all of us know

:39:57.:40:02.

that we have to declare all of our donations and this sort of thing.

:40:03.:40:09.

This is what this relates to. You declare donations to the Eldctoral

:40:10.:40:14.

Commission. Then you have to declare them all over again. She is claiming

:40:15.:40:20.

that new MPs can't cope with this. I have said this is a completdly

:40:21.:40:23.

different thing from the Maria Miller thing, because Charlotte had

:40:24.:40:26.

declared what she had received, it's just that she did not know, and it

:40:27.:40:30.

could happen to any of us... It's all about trust, though, isn't

:40:31.:40:33.

it? Yes, but declaring it twice is a bit

:40:34.:40:36.

daft. You're good mates, aren't you? How

:40:37.:40:39.

will she be feeling? She will be feeling horrendous.

:40:40.:40:43.

Because this will feel in the current somewhat febrile clhmate as

:40:44.:40:46.

though she has done something dishonest, she has not. She has made

:40:47.:40:50.

an administrative slip, I wouldn't be quite so generous if there was

:40:51.:40:54.

anything wrong, but she has declared to one body without realising that

:40:55.:40:57.

you have to declare to the other body. Why we don't just declare to

:40:58.:41:02.

one body and everybody else taps into that, I don't know.

:41:03.:41:05.

Molly, are you so sympathethc? I think even if we accept this might

:41:06.:41:09.

be an innocent mistake by Charlotte Leslie, when we allow rich people

:41:10.:41:12.

and big companies to fund politics there is always a suspicion it is in

:41:13.:41:16.

exchange for favours and lobbying interests, and the obvious way to do

:41:17.:41:19.

that is to tax rich people `nd companies properly and then fund

:41:20.:41:22.

political parties through a public funding system like they do in

:41:23.:41:27.

Germany. It seems to be the rational way to proceed.

:41:28.:41:29.

So taxpayers should pay for your campaign?

:41:30.:41:35.

Not taxpayers, no. These rich companies who at the moment are

:41:36.:41:37.

choosing which parties to ftnd. They should be forced to fund you?

:41:38.:41:42.

To fund a democratic system. If we believe in the democratic sxstem,

:41:43.:41:45.

then I think that should be publicly funded, and I think companids and

:41:46.:41:49.

rich people should pay enough tax to enable that to take place.

:41:50.:41:51.

That would mean taxpayers. That does mean taxpayers because

:41:52.:41:54.

effectively they put their prices up. Are you suggesting that

:41:55.:41:57.

companies should fund the BNP? I think parties should be ftnded

:41:58.:42:00.

relative to how much support they have. That's the system thex have in

:42:01.:42:02.

Germany. Then you never allow parties to

:42:03.:42:06.

grow, that's the trouble. That is exactly how parties do grow. For

:42:07.:42:09.

example, the German Greens were publicly funded and they were able

:42:10.:42:13.

to grow as a consequence, whereas we are struggling all the time.

:42:14.:42:15.

The Liberal Democrats, we h`ve always existed on a relativdly small

:42:16.:42:19.

night of money, and over a period of 30 years we have gone from... They

:42:20.:42:24.

used to say that all of us could get into one taxi to a point whdre. .

:42:25.:42:27.

But all parties have got into trouble over funding, haven't they?

:42:28.:42:30.

You have to take funding from big corporations to enable that, and

:42:31.:42:34.

that is the problem, I think. And I think it would be much bettdr to

:42:35.:42:38.

have... If we want to have ` democracy, we have to pay for it.

:42:39.:42:42.

And you could stomach it evdn if it was funding a party on the far left

:42:43.:42:45.

or the fascist right? Well, we might question UKIP. I find

:42:46.:42:48.

UKIP completely unpalatable, but if people want to vote for thel, that

:42:49.:42:52.

is what democracy is about. Thank you.

:42:53.:42:53.

Remember David Cameron's plddged to be the greenest government dver

:42:54.:42:57.

Four years on his government's track record is under attack from those on

:42:58.:42:59.

the other side. It was a PR coup. Eight years ago

:43:00.:43:03.

the Conservative party's new leader used huskies to boost his claim that

:43:04.:43:07.

we should vote Lou to go grden. `` we should vote loser. `` vote blue.

:43:08.:43:15.

That was before he joined forces with environmentally minded Liberal

:43:16.:43:17.

Democrats in government. Clhmate change is in my view, a revhew, the

:43:18.:43:21.

greatest challenge of our thme. We in both of our parties made a

:43:22.:43:25.

commitment to go further and faster than ever before. I want us to be

:43:26.:43:29.

the greenest government ever. A very simple ambition, and one th`t I am

:43:30.:43:33.

absolutely committed to achheving. The coalition, though, have changed.

:43:34.:43:37.

Some more than others. In opposition, George Osborne joined in

:43:38.:43:40.

with the jolly green stuff, like promoting low`energy light bulbs.

:43:41.:43:43.

But as Chancellor, he has t`ken strikingly different tone.

:43:44.:43:48.

We are not go to save the planet are putting our country out of business.

:43:49.:43:51.

So let's at the very least resolve that we will cut our carbon

:43:52.:43:54.

emissions no slower but also no faster than our fellow countries in

:43:55.:43:58.

Europe. That is what I have insisted on in the recent carbon budget.

:43:59.:44:02.

What of the government's tr`ck record? Green measures incltded

:44:03.:44:10.

ruling out new runways at Hdathrow and elsewhere, raising greenhouse

:44:11.:44:12.

gas reduction targets and introducing rising taxes on big

:44:13.:44:17.

carbon emitters. But against that, critics point to a rise in carbon

:44:18.:44:20.

emissions in 2012, and thosd same taxes on big carbon emitters have

:44:21.:44:25.

been frozen. Visiting a tid`l energy firm in Bristol on Thursday, the

:44:26.:44:31.

energy secretary was bullish. We've actually done amazing things

:44:32.:44:34.

on the green agenda. Look at renewable electricity, we h`ve

:44:35.:44:37.

doubled the amount of power going to people's homes from renewable

:44:38.:44:40.

sources, and we are set to hncrease that, we are set to beat our own

:44:41.:44:44.

targets. Internationally we have been leading the way in the way the

:44:45.:44:54.

world tackles climate changd. Being green means different things

:44:55.:44:58.

to different people. The government, including the Liberal Democrats

:44:59.:45:00.

believe that kicking off a new generation of nuclear power stations

:45:01.:45:03.

is crucial to cutting carbon emissions. The Greens emphatically

:45:04.:45:14.

disagree. They protested at the Somerset plant on Thursday.

:45:15.:45:17.

The hypocrisy at the heart of this government's energy policy hs

:45:18.:45:21.

immense. Leading the charge, the MP Caroline

:45:22.:45:24.

Lucas, recently called to opposition over fracking. `` recently hn

:45:25.:45:31.

court. If you look at the latest btdget,

:45:32.:45:34.

more subsidies to things like fracking, oil, the Chancellor

:45:35.:45:37.

himself said we will get evdry drop of oil out of the North Sea, he said

:45:38.:45:41.

proudly during his budget statement. I don't think anybody could be in

:45:42.:45:45.

any doubt at all that this government would not now grden if it

:45:46.:45:48.

saw it in the face. Next month the diggers are going to

:45:49.:45:57.

prepare for the new reactors. These fields, a bit like government

:45:58.:46:00.

policy, soon won't appear so green. Merlin Hyman keeps close tabs on the

:46:01.:46:03.

government's green credenti`ls. He's the chief executive of Regen

:46:04.:46:09.

SouthWest. It helps promote renewable energy projects. Hs this

:46:10.:46:16.

the greenest government ever? It's a pretty mixed record. If you

:46:17.:46:21.

look at renewable energy, some of the policy framework and wh`t has

:46:22.:46:24.

been achieved is actually pretty good. But a lot of the mess`ge has

:46:25.:46:29.

been pretty confused, and coming from the Treasury or the pl`nning

:46:30.:46:33.

department, you have heard some pretty mixed messages. For companies

:46:34.:46:38.

who are thinking of investing millions or billions of pounds into

:46:39.:46:42.

major project or a range of projects, that kind of sign`lling is

:46:43.:46:49.

not helpful. I think we havd missed out a little on the opportunity to

:46:50.:46:52.

pioneer a new renewable energy sector and create jobs and

:46:53.:46:55.

opportunities because of th`t confuse messaging that sometimes

:46:56.:46:59.

comes out. Is there an appetite among the

:47:00.:47:02.

general public to pay for rdnewable energy? To pay the excess that you

:47:03.:47:06.

have to? At the moment we pay about ?50 on

:47:07.:47:12.

our energy bills to incentivise renewable energy, and I think most

:47:13.:47:18.

people, and I do spend a lot of time going out and talking to colmunities

:47:19.:47:22.

I think most people say the fact that in an uncertain world, when we

:47:23.:47:27.

say things like the Ukraine crisis and Vladimir Putin threatenhng to

:47:28.:47:32.

turn off the gas, when we h`ve some natural and clean resources, and we

:47:33.:47:36.

can generate our own energy locally, that is pretty much common

:47:37.:47:40.

sense. What we see is the price of that coming down pretty raphdly In

:47:41.:47:44.

the Telegraph just today we saw article suggesting that sol`r power

:47:45.:47:47.

would soon be cheaper than fossil fuel sources.

:47:48.:47:55.

But talk to you, Tessa Mont. Lib Dem in charge of liberal policy, how are

:47:56.:48:00.

you greener than Molly from the Green party?

:48:01.:48:07.

We have taken the power we have been given as Secretary of State running

:48:08.:48:10.

that department and we have brought in some green policies. If xou

:48:11.:48:13.

compare it to governance from the past, I don't think you can deny...

:48:14.:48:19.

Fracking? Fracking is Matt.

:48:20.:48:27.

But you are part of the govdrnment! Going hell`bent for fracking?

:48:28.:48:33.

Norway! Molly, are you greener?

:48:34.:48:41.

If they think this government is not living up to expectations, the

:48:42.:48:44.

Liberal Democrats should le`ve the coalition.

:48:45.:48:48.

We have got the green deal, we could do it better.

:48:49.:48:52.

The green deal has been a dhsaster. That happened 30 schemes funded and

:48:53.:48:59.

they were looking for 10,000. You are against nuclear, yot are

:49:00.:49:02.

against fracking, you are against call, you are against a barrage

:49:03.:49:08.

What are you for? The main thing we need to do is

:49:09.:49:14.

reduce our energy demand. In terms of the energy we need to

:49:15.:49:19.

generate... Does that mean not using my washing

:49:20.:49:22.

machine or not driving a car? Does that mean?

:49:23.:49:27.

Increasing the efficiency of all products people use, that is

:49:28.:49:31.

important, but also changing our communities so that people have to

:49:32.:49:35.

travel less. Flying abroad less for business trips, that is part of

:49:36.:49:40.

its. But we also want to sed more renewables onshore and offshore And

:49:41.:49:44.

as Merlin Hyman already pointed out, if you support nuclear and support

:49:45.:49:49.

fracking, you are taking funding from renewable funding.

:49:50.:49:57.

We see conversations coming up to manifestoes and elections, there is

:49:58.:49:59.

a risk of making a terrible strategic mistake. The rest of the

:50:00.:50:02.

world is going rapidly towards renewable energy. 70% of new

:50:03.:50:07.

electricity capacity in Europe last year was renewable. China h`s

:50:08.:50:11.

massive investment in renew`ble energy, and we have a huge

:50:12.:50:15.

opportunity. We have great resources, opportunities,

:50:16.:50:19.

companies. But you always need the back`up for

:50:20.:50:23.

when the sun does not shine and the wind does not low.

:50:24.:50:27.

The idea is to have the European interconnected system. Somewhere in

:50:28.:50:31.

Europe they are generating electricity, no need to better

:50:32.:50:34.

interconnectivity to deal whth that.

:50:35.:50:40.

Germany have gone to renewables their emissions have gone up as they

:50:41.:50:43.

have had to use coal to fill the gaps.

:50:44.:50:47.

That is true, but over time that'll be resolved because of the

:50:48.:50:53.

investment. Important thing to remember is that a lot of it is

:50:54.:50:56.

owned by communities, some of the people that own the wind farms are

:50:57.:51:01.

benefiting from them. That is important. As we develop

:51:02.:51:04.

renewables will need to eng`ge local people and local communities much

:51:05.:51:09.

more. That is happening. Thanks for coming in.

:51:10.:51:14.

The Liberal Democrat MP for Taunton has compared his party to a shopping

:51:15.:51:19.

trolley with a wonky wheel but always veers towards the left. Now

:51:20.:51:24.

he has written a book that `ppears to pool that trolley sharplx to the

:51:25.:51:32.

right. The Race Plan calls for the top rate of tax to be cut, he wants

:51:33.:51:38.

more free schools, and on transport feedbacks big investment in

:51:39.:51:42.

infrastructure with a huge new airport. He has accused his fellow

:51:43.:51:47.

Liberal Democrat of being too timid. I asked him if he was talking

:51:48.:51:54.

down his own party. I don't think I am being disdainful

:51:55.:51:56.

of the Liberal Democrats. I recognise that we have got some

:51:57.:52:01.

difficulties at the moment but we have made very substantial

:52:02.:52:05.

contribution to the governmdnt of this country.

:52:06.:52:08.

It doesn't sound as if they are doing anything right in your book.

:52:09.:52:12.

I am trying to make a big argument, and that is that the whole world

:52:13.:52:16.

order is changing quite dralatically with the rise of countries hn Asia,

:52:17.:52:22.

China and India and others, and the question for countries like Britain,

:52:23.:52:26.

one of the established powers, is what do we need to do in order to

:52:27.:52:31.

overhaul ourselves in order to make sure we continue to be prosperous

:52:32.:52:34.

and influential in a much more competitive world.

:52:35.:52:40.

You are calling for the top rate of tax to be reduced to 40p.

:52:41.:52:46.

I am in the same place as Gordon Brown and Tony Blair were. H think

:52:47.:52:55.

40p is a reasonable rate. I think it is easy for people to understand, it

:52:56.:52:59.

is a fair burden on people hn different incomes.

:53:00.:53:06.

The Tories don't dare do it. I can speak for the Conserv`tives,

:53:07.:53:10.

all I'm saying is what I thhnk will make Britain a competitive country.

:53:11.:53:15.

But people will say, this gty is in the wrong party.

:53:16.:53:20.

I don't see why favouring the top rate of tax the same as Tonx Blair

:53:21.:53:25.

makes me conservative. Tony Blair was a labour Prime Minister, and I

:53:26.:53:30.

am Liberal Democrat. The West Country is a Liber`l

:53:31.:53:33.

Democrat stronghold, so what are people in the West supposed to think

:53:34.:53:37.

of this? Nick Clegg is therd saying that he is the break on number ten

:53:38.:53:40.

stopping the Tories doing something that is too radical. And now you are

:53:41.:53:46.

being more radical than all of them.

:53:47.:53:51.

I want the Liberal Democrats to be the accelerator rather than the

:53:52.:53:56.

break. Do you accept they are the break at

:53:57.:54:00.

the moment? Sometimes that is the mode we going

:54:01.:54:05.

to. In politics there is a place for stopping people you disagred with

:54:06.:54:08.

from doing things they want to do, but I think generally it is a

:54:09.:54:11.

mindset I am uncomfortable with to think that the main defining role

:54:12.:54:16.

you have is not to put forw`rd your own ideas for how to make the

:54:17.:54:20.

country a better place but stop people using their ideas. I want the

:54:21.:54:24.

party to be more self`confident more outward looking, more bald. I don't

:54:25.:54:31.

see liberalism is being a ddfensive ideology about splitting thd

:54:32.:54:35.

difference between others, trying to download the ideas of other people.

:54:36.:54:40.

I think liberalism can be a radical and progressive policy.

:54:41.:54:45.

But you are fundamentally ott of step with the party.

:54:46.:54:50.

I don't accept that. Is that why you are fired?

:54:51.:54:56.

Nick Clegg made the decision, you will have to ask him.

:54:57.:55:01.

Is it a bid for the leadership? There is no vacancy for the

:55:02.:55:06.

leadership. I won't argue, why, if the Liberal Democrats did not exist,

:55:07.:55:11.

why would it be necessary to invent us? And I don't think it is to have

:55:12.:55:16.

a party that dilutes the vidws of other political parties, but I do

:55:17.:55:20.

think that having a bold, ottward looking and authentic liber`lism is

:55:21.:55:24.

part of the solution to the country's predicament and l`wmakers

:55:25.:55:30.

more prosperous in the future. Tessa you have brought his book You

:55:31.:55:35.

have been queuing in the shops for that. Is your poster boy, or is the

:55:36.:55:42.

outsider? I think some of the points he makes

:55:43.:55:47.

are probably good in that hd would probably have to invent the Liberal

:55:48.:55:49.

Democrats if we were not here already. I would say that I possibly

:55:50.:55:54.

disagree with some of the things he is saying. I have not read the book,

:55:55.:55:59.

but I feel we have offered our own acceleration.

:56:00.:56:05.

He says that Nick Clegg alw`ys says, I have stop them doing that and I

:56:06.:56:08.

would stop maybe doing something else, and that is not very

:56:09.:56:12.

inspiring. Absolutely, but look at what we have

:56:13.:56:15.

done in government. Jeremy hs talking about the future, btt look

:56:16.:56:21.

at what we have done. We have thousands of people in Somerset

:56:22.:56:25.

having had a tax cut, millions of pounds going into schools.

:56:26.:56:30.

Are you a left of centre party? I don't think we are, we ard

:56:31.:56:34.

liberal. Would you support the top r`te of

:56:35.:56:39.

tax as 40p? After we sort out the shambles of

:56:40.:56:42.

National Insurance attributhon is that people start paying at ?8, 00.

:56:43.:56:47.

We need to make sure that N`tional Insurance conurbations don't get

:56:48.:56:51.

charged... Molly, part of his thesis is how do

:56:52.:56:56.

you prepare for the emerging world which is very competitive. Lakes the

:56:57.:57:02.

point that while we have bedn faffing around about a new runway at

:57:03.:57:06.

Heathrow, the Chinese have built easy to airports. What is the green

:57:07.:57:11.

response to that? The green response is to protect us

:57:12.:57:14.

where we are and protect people at home and not focus so much on being

:57:15.:57:19.

globally competitive and focusing on growth.

:57:20.:57:22.

What would that do to stand`rd of living?

:57:23.:57:25.

It would improve it because we would create more luckily `` more locally

:57:26.:57:40.

based jobs. His idea is to get government OAS are competing with

:57:41.:57:44.

people with Laura working conditions and that's not something I would be

:57:45.:57:47.

part of. Without the command economy?

:57:48.:57:51.

It would be a command econoly. Liberalism was always about small

:57:52.:57:56.

government, and the reason ht failed because people suffered at work

:57:57.:58:00.

Rampant capitalism meant th`t they had very poor conditions and also

:58:01.:58:03.

destroyed the environment. We have seen other political movements come

:58:04.:58:09.

along to respond to that. Let's take a look back at the

:58:10.:58:12.

political week as we set thd stopwatch 46 the second. `` 62

:58:13.:58:21.

seconds. The Mirror Swindon apologisdd over

:58:22.:58:25.

remarks about disabilities. An independent panel found him guilty

:58:26.:58:31.

of breaching a code of condtct. A former Mayor of Cheltenham has also

:58:32.:58:35.

had to say sorry. She says she was not thinking when she made ` remark

:58:36.:58:40.

about rape during a debate on housing. Motorists face a hhgh end

:58:41.:58:45.

tools over the Clifton Suspdnsion Bridge. The Transport Secretary

:58:46.:58:50.

approved arise from 50p to ?1 after an enquiry. Money will be spent on

:58:51.:58:55.

repairs and maintenance. Grden belt campaigners in Gloucestershhre lost

:58:56.:58:59.

out in their battle on houshng. Councillors have improved the plan

:59:00.:59:06.

which will see 40,000 homes built in Gloucestershire and Tewkesbtry. And

:59:07.:59:08.

the West has its first schools Commissioner. Former music teacher

:59:09.:59:15.

said David Carter takes up the post and will decide where new academies

:59:16.:59:18.

are built on behalf of the government.

:59:19.:59:24.

Molly, 30,000 new houses in Gloucestershire. You must approve.

:59:25.:59:33.

We think local communities should maintain the power to decidd where

:59:34.:59:35.

houses are built, and that has been completely centralised and Dric

:59:36.:59:40.

Pickles is overturning our decisions locally, so we have lost control of

:59:41.:59:43.

planning. How many committees would s`y,

:59:44.:59:47.

building next to me? It is not in favour of the

:59:48.:59:50.

committees, it is in favour of their builders and that is what is ruining

:59:51.:59:54.

planning. People still do not have enough

:59:55.:59:59.

places to live. Thousands of people on waithng

:00:00.:00:04.

lists, we have to make sure houses are affordable and built in a really

:00:05.:00:08.

sound environmental way so that people have good standards `nd have

:00:09.:00:15.

space to live. If I had my way, what I would do is let every comlunity, I

:00:16.:00:20.

would give them the right to choose where it goes, but the

:00:21.:00:23.

responsibility of making sure they provide for it.

:00:24.:00:30.

And that's just about all for us. Are thanks to Molly Scott C`to and

:00:31.:00:36.

Tessa Mont. We are back in Lay to follow all the twists and ttrns of

:00:37.:00:39.

particular candidates. Back to you, Andrew.

:00:40.:00:49.

The sun's out, Ed Balls has run the London Marathon, and MPs leave

:00:50.:00:51.

Westminster for their Easter break. Let's discuss what's coming up in

:00:52.:01:02.

the Week Ahead. We will get more of what we have

:01:03.:01:06.

just seen. Let's look back on the debate. What did we learn from the

:01:07.:01:11.

argument is? That it is going to bore and irritate whole lot of

:01:12.:01:14.

people, this election campaign. Four parties shouting at each other about

:01:15.:01:19.

things that most people do not know much about. They know very little

:01:20.:01:22.

about how the European Parliament works, what an MEP is supposed to

:01:23.:01:30.

do. A lot of heat and not a lot of light. I've updated well, all of

:01:31.:01:36.

them, but the net effect is not going to encourage people to go out

:01:37.:01:40.

and vote and not many do. One thing that struck me was that on Europe,

:01:41.:01:48.

the Labour and Lib Dem positions are not that far apart. They are pretty

:01:49.:01:52.

much the same. And yet the knocks lots of each other. I suppose they

:01:53.:01:56.

feel that they had to do that because that is the format. I'd

:01:57.:02:01.

agree with Polly. Their word UKIP and the Tories to attack two we try

:02:02.:02:07.

to make it exciting, and we know the issues are important. But people out

:02:08.:02:11.

there have not heard of these individuals. It is not very

:02:12.:02:16.

exciting. That is worrying because these are huge national questions

:02:17.:02:19.

for us. We need to find a way of making it more fun. People may not

:02:20.:02:26.

know these MEPs, they may not know the detail of the debate, but it is

:02:27.:02:30.

an issue on which people have strong opinions. It is a visceral thing for

:02:31.:02:35.

many people. Especially on the immigration issue. The debate took

:02:36.:02:37.

off and became more vociferous at that point. To a large extent, you

:02:38.:02:44.

wonder whether not only this European election but the eventual

:02:45.:02:47.

referendum will be a referendum on the issue of immigration and free

:02:48.:02:52.

movement. If we did not learn much from the argument, the thing we did

:02:53.:02:55.

learn is that the structure of these televised debate influences the

:02:56.:03:02.

outcome. One of the reasons that Nigel Farage did well in the debate

:03:03.:03:09.

is that in a two-man debate, each man has as good a chance as the

:03:10.:03:13.

other. If it is four people, one man can be ganged up on. Patrick O'Flynn

:03:14.:03:18.

did well for a man who is not an elected politician yet. At times, 40

:03:19.:03:22.

came under attack and did not hold the line as well as you would

:03:23.:03:25.

expect. Does that create a perverse incentive for the main parties to

:03:26.:03:29.

agree to a four way debate before the general election? I do not think

:03:30.:03:34.

the David Cameron has nearly as much to worry about from a televised

:03:35.:03:37.

debate in the run-up to the elections than his spin doctors

:03:38.:03:41.

believe. When you put him up against Ed Miliband, and we have not

:03:42.:03:45.

actually seen Ed Miliband in that format, I think he will come off all

:03:46.:03:51.

right. This is an election which the polls would have us believe that the

:03:52.:03:56.

battle for first place is between UKIP and labour. It certainly is.

:03:57.:04:02.

Obviously, it is neck and neck and we will not know until we are

:04:03.:04:05.

closer. And it matters a lot to both of them. If Mr Miliband does not

:04:06.:04:11.

come first, that is not good news for the main opposition at this

:04:12.:04:16.

stage. Except to some extent all of the people will put it to one side

:04:17.:04:21.

and say that this is a bizarre election. A plague on both your

:04:22.:04:27.

houses, let's vote UKIP. It is not clear how much that translates into

:04:28.:04:33.

the next election. It is not too disastrous for Labour. It would be

:04:34.:04:38.

better if they came first. If Mr Miliband comes first, not a problem,

:04:39.:04:43.

but it becomes second and UKIP soars away, what are the consequences I

:04:44.:04:48.

think there is a widespread expectation already at Westminster

:04:49.:04:51.

that UKIP is very likely to come first. If Ed Miliband fails to come

:04:52.:04:56.

first, there will not be a great deal of shock in the West Mr

:04:57.:05:00.

village. Else think what is remarkable about Ed Miliband is that

:05:01.:05:03.

despite consistently poor personal leadership approval ratings, the

:05:04.:05:09.

overall Labour poll is consistently very high. We have seen that budget

:05:10.:05:16.

blip, it seems to have taken us back to where we were before. Leadership

:05:17.:05:21.

is not everything. Mrs Thatcher was miles behind James Callaghan but in

:05:22.:05:24.

the end, it was the party politics that mattered more. If Mr Cameron

:05:25.:05:30.

comes third and the Tories come third, maybe a poor third, is it

:05:31.:05:35.

headless chicken time on the Tory backbenchers? It has often been said

:05:36.:05:40.

that the Tory Party has two modes, complacency and panic. You will see

:05:41.:05:46.

them shift into panic mode. By June, I think. Many of the stories in the

:05:47.:05:52.

sun will be about David Cameron s personal leadership and his grip on

:05:53.:05:56.

the party. There will be pressure on conference by the time that comes

:05:57.:05:59.

around. It is a natural consequence of being the incumbent party. The

:06:00.:06:06.

Lib Dems are 7% in two of the polls today. It was widely thought that in

:06:07.:06:11.

the first and second debates, Nigel Farage won both. In retrospect, was

:06:12.:06:18.

the challenge strategy a disaster for Mr Clegg? I do not think it was

:06:19.:06:24.

because he had nothing to lose. But he is lower in the polls than when

:06:25.:06:30.

he started. He has not lost a great deal. The polls were quite often

:06:31.:06:36.

that low. I think it was a good thing to do. It raised his profile.

:06:37.:06:41.

It made him the leading party in. That may be a difficult place to

:06:42.:06:46.

be. That is how you end up with 7% in the polls. The reason he is

:06:47.:06:50.

fighting with Labour is that he knows very well that all he has to

:06:51.:06:54.

do is to get his votes back that have gone to Labour and labour have

:06:55.:06:57.

to fight hard to make sure that they do not go back. Every party looks to

:06:58.:07:03.

where it is going to get it support. If it is a wipe-out for the

:07:04.:07:08.

Lib Dems, and they lose all their MEPs, not saying that is going to

:07:09.:07:13.

happen but you could not rule it out for, are we back in Nick Clegg

:07:14.:07:19.

leadership crisis territory? One of the astonishing things about this

:07:20.:07:23.

Parliament is the relative absence of leadership speculation about Nick

:07:24.:07:27.

Clegg will stop at the first couple of years, his position seems

:07:28.:07:29.

tricky, but maybe that is because Chris Hughton is gone and he was the

:07:30.:07:34.

only plausible candidate. This cable is not getting any younger, to put

:07:35.:07:37.

it delicately. That was not delegate at all! And we have reached a

:07:38.:07:42.

desperate stage where Danny Alexander is talked about as a

:07:43.:07:44.

candidate. That was not delegate either! Maybe he is holding onto

:07:45.:07:49.

power the lack of alternatives. If they ended up with no MEPs at all,

:07:50.:07:55.

and a less than double digits score... With Danny Alexander, it is

:07:56.:08:01.

clear that Scotland, one way or another, will be moving further

:08:02.:08:04.

away. You could not have the leader of a national party be a Scot. But

:08:05.:08:10.

he does not have the following in the party. I'm glad you're liberal

:08:11.:08:14.

attitudes to immigration extends to me. I would not have been here for

:08:15.:08:20.

43 years. There will be leadership talk after that holes. It has been

:08:21.:08:26.

bubbling in the background, but you have to talk to the grass roots

:08:27.:08:31.

activists. -- after the polls. The grass roots activists are

:08:32.:08:36.

despairing. If things are bad, they lose their network of activists who

:08:37.:08:38.

they need to fight the next election. I think you mean, not that

:08:39.:08:43.

you could have a Scot, but that it would be more difficult to have a

:08:44.:08:47.

Scot from a Scottish constituency. Absolutely. I think a Scottish

:08:48.:08:53.

constituency, so many things will be different. Or to hold the great

:08:54.:08:59.

offices of state. Let's come onto the Crown Prosecution Service is. It

:09:00.:09:03.

is an English institution. Where does the CPS and after losing yet

:09:04.:09:06.

another high-profile case come this time Nigel Evans? They had nine

:09:07.:09:11.

counts against him and they did not win on one. It is obviously very

:09:12.:09:18.

embarrassing. They will have a bit of explain to do but I guess the

:09:19.:09:21.

threshold for bringing these cases is high. There has to be considered

:09:22.:09:25.

at least a 50-50 chance of actually winning the case. We do not know

:09:26.:09:31.

what went on behind the scenes when they weighed up whether to bring the

:09:32.:09:33.

case. Nigel Evans makes an interesting point about whether it

:09:34.:09:37.

is legitimate to bundle together a number of stand-alone relatively

:09:38.:09:43.

weak accusations, and when you put them together to militantly, the CPS

:09:44.:09:48.

uses that to make a case. Is that a legitimate thing to do? He was a

:09:49.:09:52.

high-profile figure, not just because he was a Tory MP. He was the

:09:53.:10:00.

deputy speaker of the House. And yet the CPS are certainly the police, to

:10:01.:10:05.

begin with they did not have that many people to testify against him.

:10:06.:10:09.

And then they trawled for more. You wonder if they would have done that

:10:10.:10:13.

if it was not for the fact that he was a public figure. The trouble is,

:10:14.:10:16.

they are dammed if they do and dammed if they do not. Particularly

:10:17.:10:19.

with politicians and the reputation they have these days, if there is

:10:20.:10:22.

any suggestion that they let somebody off because they are a

:10:23.:10:25.

high-profile politician, and they are saying that about Cyril Smith,

:10:26.:10:32.

that is the accusation. A strange story. Most unlikely and very

:10:33.:10:36.

bizarre. But that is the accusation. If there is any with of that, I can

:10:37.:10:41.

see why the CPS says, we better let the courts try this one. Also, they

:10:42.:10:45.

are in trouble overrated cases because their success rate on

:10:46.:10:54.

bringing people to court for rape is so thin. When it looked as if his

:10:55.:10:56.

accusers were not really accusing him, it looks quite weak. You cannot

:10:57.:11:00.

help but feeling that they are falling over backwards now in

:11:01.:11:05.

high-profile cases because of their abject and total failure over Jimmy

:11:06.:11:10.

Savile. I think this is exactly the kind of case that happens when you

:11:11.:11:13.

are trying to make a point or redeem a reputation or change a culture.

:11:14.:11:18.

All of these big things. As opposed to what criminal justice is supposed

:11:19.:11:21.

to be about, which is specific crimes and specific evidence

:11:22.:11:24.

matching those crimes. The CPS has no copper a fleet joined in this

:11:25.:11:28.

list of public and situations that has taken a fall over the past five

:11:29.:11:31.

or six years. We have had Parliament, the newspapers, the

:11:32.:11:35.

police will stop I think this is as bad a humiliation as any of those

:11:36.:11:38.

because it is Innocent people suffering. You are the most recent,

:11:39.:11:42.

being a lobby correspondent in Westminster, and we now see on

:11:43.:11:47.

Channel 4 News that basically, Westminster is twinned with Sodom

:11:48.:11:52.

and Gomorrah. Yes. I know. Is this true? It is all rather the red. I do

:11:53.:11:57.

not move in those circles. And you were in the lobby at one stage? Not

:11:58.:12:03.

that long ago. Is it right. Is it right to be twinned with Sodom and

:12:04.:12:06.

Gomorrah? I'll ask him for his opinion. Being technically a member

:12:07.:12:12.

of the lobby, I can observe some of this stuff. And what surprises me is

:12:13.:12:18.

that journalists, when the complain about Sodom and Gomorrah, write

:12:19.:12:22.

themselves out of it. It is as if it is just MPs. We are unalloyed and

:12:23.:12:27.

unvarnished. Actually, the fact is it has always been a bit like Sodom

:12:28.:12:32.

and tomorrow. Of course it has. Think about how we have had wave

:12:33.:12:35.

after wave of stories and scandals. But less of it recently. It was I

:12:36.:12:39.

think that attitudes have slightly changed. I'll also think that if you

:12:40.:12:44.

get 650 people in any organisation and you put that much scrutiny on

:12:45.:12:50.

them, you will find an awful lot going on in most people's officers

:12:51.:12:57.

of a scurrilous nature. Even in the BBC

:12:58.:14:00.

In 2013, the public voted for a portrait of

:14:01.:14:03.

At times he's interesting, at times he's very funny,

:14:04.:14:11.

My life is a very happy life and I'm a very happy person.

:14:12.:14:19.

Will you feel nervous when this is unveiled?

:14:20.:14:21.

I suppose being the centre of attention but for ever.

:14:22.:14:25.

Andrew Neil and David Garmston with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Andrew chairs a special debate ahead of the European elections with representatives from UKIP, Labour, the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats.


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