04/05/2014 Sunday Politics West

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Walls are being

re-painted in Belfast as Gerry Adams begins his fourth day in police

custody in connection with one of the most brutal and shocking murders

of the Troubles. That's our top story.

He may have got egg on his face this week but Nigel Farage is a serious

electoral threat in this month's elections. I'll ask the Conservative

Party Chairman Grant Shapps how worried he is.

And we're on the trail of Nick Clegg. You were voted the best

How easy is it to change our likely to be a good

How easy is it to change our relationship with the continent?

questions of identity, immigration and independence. We have a table

full of Euro candidates here to debate what it means for London.

And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political panel in the

business - Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. They'll be

throwing metaphorical rotten eggs into the twittersphere.

First this morning - Gerry Adams, President of Sinn Fein, has spent a

fourth night in police custody after he was arrested in connection with

the killing of Jean McConville more than 40 years ago. Sinn Fein has

claimed that the arrest is politically motivated coming, as it

does, during local and European election campaigns. Northern

Ireland's deputy first minister, Martin McGuinness, has indicated he

might review the party's support for policing in the province if Gerry

Adams is charged. The Jean McConville murder was one of the

most notorious cases of the Troubles.

The widowed mother of ten was kidnapped from her home in December

1972, never to be seen alive again. The IRA denied involvement but in

1999 admitted it had murdered her and several others, known as the

Disappeared. Before his death, the former IRA commander Brendan Hughes

pointed the finger at Gerry Adams, claiming:

In April this year, either Bell was charged with aiding and abetting the

murder. -- Ivor Bell. Gerry Adams has always insisted he is innocent

of any part in the abduction and killing all burial of Mrs

McConville. We were hoping to speak to the

Northern Ireland Secretary, Theresa Villiers, but having agreed to do an

interview with us this morning, she pulled out. But we are joined from

Belfast by Sinn Fein's Alex Maskey. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. And

the police just doing their job by questioning Gerry Adams? Gerry Adams

said publicly some time ago that he was available to speak to the

police, but that is not what this is about at the moment, because what we

have here is clearly evidence in our mind of political interference in

what should be due process. Gerry Adams made it clear some time ago he

wanted to speak to the police, it was available at any time, and yet

that request was not taken up until three weeks into an election and we

believe that was deliberately orchestrated by a small number of

people. What evidence can you present this morning that proves

that claim? The direct circumstances Gerry Adams finds himself in at the

moment, take that in stark contrast when they have dealt with members of

the British Army for instance... That is just circumstantial. The

PSNI know that the soldiers involved in that and a number of other

high-profile killings of citizens here, and not one of those people

has been arrested. In fact any of the people who were interviewed were

interviewed by request. There was a stark contrast, in terms of how they

have dealt with the British military involving state killings. We haven't

got too much time. Sinn Fein said it would review its support for the

PSNI if Gerry Adams is charged. That sounds like political interference

in the police process. It's not because we have a clear mandate from

the people who elect us. Policing has been an important part of the

peace process here for many years, Sinn Fein plays an important role in

local policing partnerships. We negotiate to make sure we have

powers transferred here to elected representatives in the north. It is

a long way to go before we have policing highly accountable, and

making sure they deliver a very impartial service. How will he react

if Gerry Adams is charged? I am still trying to get a clear answer.

If Gerry Adams is charged, will you withdraw support for the Northern

Ireland police service? We view this as a serious situation and a serious

ongoing situation and we will monitor how this pans out. We have a

very important role to play to support the police service here. We

have done consistently, worked with them on a daily basis, but we will

not accept political interference by a small number of people in the

police who are undermining the police. We will not accept political

policing. If there was evidence, and I emphasise the word if, because we

have seen none, but if there were evidence to justify Gerry Adams

being charged, why should he not be charged? It is my understanding from

the family of Gerry Adams that there has not been a single shred of

evidence put forward. I understand that, but if there was evidence, why

should he not be charged? You put that caveat yourself and then you

expect me to speculate, there is no way I will do that. The fact of the

matter is there hasn't been one single shred of evidence put to

Gerry Adams in the last few days, in fact what has been put to him is a

range of issues of newspaper cuttings, books, statements made

from people, including from people who didn't want their statements

released until they have died. who didn't want their statements

was charged, again I emphasise the word if, does the police process

fall apart? The police process is a fragile entity, it requires work and

we have been saying this publicly and privately with the Irish and

British and privately with the Irish and

process has to be nurtured and developed. We are not out of the

woods yet. From a Republican point of view we have been working flat

out. I just wanted a quick answer to my question, is a yes or no? What

question I asking me? Is the peace process in jeopardy? It is fragile

and I am not going to have words put into my mouth but I don't want to

use. It has to be worked out and nurtured. Thank you for joining us.

Nick Watt, you were a Northern Ireland correspondent like myself in

days gone by. Where is this going to go? It shows how challenging the

peace process is because on the one hand you have the unspeakable pain

of the McConville family, but you also have the danger of not having

mechanisms to deal with the past. South Africa is a good example, you

have to have some mechanism to deal with the past because if you don't,

you are going to have, as Sinn Fein have now, someone in a police cell

but you don't have the arrests of the Bloody Sunday soldiers.

Paramilitary prisoners were released after two years... We have seen no

action against somebody accused of the Hyde Park bombings, it is not a

one-way street. We have the decommissioning of IRA weapons by

the IRA, therefore destroying crucial evidence. You have these

inconsistencies because you don't have an mechanism for dealing with

the past, but doing that is really difficult because of the pain of

real people. Don't you get a feeling that here in London they are hoping

he will not be charged? Definitely because it would be nice if

everything went away, but the civil case of the family is taken out of

the hands of the police. You can see here a real failure in Westminster

to see this as anything other than settled. David Cameron we know sees

himself as a chairman. I was speaking to a friend in Northern

Ireland who said he has never met Gerry Adams and I think this is very

revealing. They consider this as a settled issue that will not trouble

Westminster again. It would be, but the relatives of the disappeared

don't want it to be settled. This points to the reality that the

Belfast agreement probably had to be done, but the moral price at which

it was purchased was far greater than we were willing to admit during

the euphoria. For a country that prides itself by the rule of law to

tolerate the early release of prisoners and former pal and

military -- paramilitaries, I think was a very serious matter. As for

the PSNI, it only exists because its predecessor failed to command the

confidence of the nationalist community. It is a very big deal if

even the PSNI ends up falling into the same trap. We have to is leave

it there I'm afraid. It was the Conservative's local election

campaign launch on Friday, and what did David Cameron focus on? Burning

local issues like the state of our roads, rubbish collection or care of

the elderly? No. It was Europe. The Prime Minister re-iterated again his

promise of an in-out referendum on our membership of the EU in 2017.

And it's being reported this morning that he will share a platform with

Nigel Farage in a pre-general election debate. Here's what the

UKIP leader had to say about the issue when he was on the Marr Show

this morning with Ed Miliband. David Cameron very often makes these vague

promises, then doesn't deliver afterwards. I don't think he has any

intention of allowing me into any of these debates. Perhaps Ed Miliband

wants to debate? We have got to have the TV debates as we did join the

last general election. I think David Cameron is doing everything he can

to wriggle out of them. It is up to the broadcasters but whether they

invite Nigel. My main desire is that the debates go ahead. We are joined

now by Grant Shapps. Will he be included? The debates were not

without problems, they took place during the campaign period and

disrupted the flow of the campaign, taking it out of the regions, people

getting to speak to the leaders so a longer period for that would be

helpful. I think they are good idea and they should go ahead, but all of

the negotiation about who is involved is yet to happen. So it is

not a done deal that Nigel Farage will be included? That needs to be

negotiated with the TV companies. The Conservatives believe we should

have debates, but exactly the format and the timing, all of the -- that

will be debated in the autumn, but first we have European elections,

the Queen 's speech and a Scottish referendum. The local election

campaign was launched on Friday. Why did you talk more about Europe than

local councils? Both are important. The local elections are critically

important for people, their local services. It is easy to forget, for

example, that the council tax has been largely frozen since this

Government came to power, a big contrast to Dublin under the

previous Labour government. So why did you go on and on about Europe?

Let me show you the poster used to launch your local election campaign.

There it is, and in-out referendum on Europe, the day of the local

elections, where is the word local? Is it in small print? I hear what

you're saying, I am happy to be here to talk about the local elections.

But you are right, they are on the same day, and not many people know

that only by voting conservative can you get an in-out referendum. --

Conservative. UKIP cannot deliver, we can, it is the same date, so

people... This was the launch of the local election campaign. Why does

the Prime Minister have to keep on promising something he has already

promised? The actual referendum would be in 2017. He promised it

before, he keeps repeating it because he knows people don't really

trust him. I think it is a question of the fact that, actually, unless

you remind people that the pledges there, that the only way to get an

in-out referendum is to vote for it, this is a critical moment at

which we need people to vote for that referendum if they want it. It

is not the case, as I saw this morning, being said by Nigel Farage,

that a referendum was promised before and not delivered. There was

no referendum in the last manifesto. There will be in the next one. There

was a cast-iron guarantee, in the Sun in 2006. Let's just clear that

up... Once the Lisbon Treaty... In the Sun article, he said, we will

have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. Clearly, because that treaty

had been passed before the general election, it is difficult to have a

referendum on something in the past. We joined Europe in the 1970s,

having a referendum on that! Look, that is about the future. Our

relationship with Europe is absolutely critical. Most people in

this country feel, I was not old enough to vote in that referendum,

most of those who voted, they voted for a Common Market, that is not

what we have got. We want to continue the work we have been doing

in the EU Budget, what did UKIP do? They voted against it. We want more

of those powers brought home, and we will put it to a referendum, and

people will have to vote Conservative to get it. We have been

looking at new research, almost two thirds of Conservative members are

considering voting for UKIP, almost two thirds. I have a simple message

here, which is this. If you vote for UKIP... Can we have it up? 30% are

likely, 30% are possible. That is why it is important we are making

these arguments. If you vote for UKIP, you are voting to take us

further away from returning powers to this country, further from a

referendum. It is support for Ed Miliband becoming Prime Minister,

and he will do exactly what Labour have always done - hand away powers,

and away the rebate for nothing in return, giving Europe even more so

over the day-to-day affairs in Britain. Why are so many people

considering voting UKIP? It is to hold your feet to the fire, they do

not trust you on a referendum, so they will vote UKIP to force you to

tap in your line. We have a very tough line. If I had said four years

ago that this government would manage to cut the overall EU

budget, would take us out of the bailout fund that Labour got us

into, passing a law that no more powers can go to Europe without a

referendum, if I had said that, people would say, I do not believe

it will happen. Not only have we done these things, we are promising

and in-out referendum, and the only way to get it is to vote

Conservative. Nigel Farage has said, we can't change anything in

Europe, and it is no wonder that the president of the European Commission

has said, we love having these UKIP MEPs, because they don't turn up and

vote, apart from when they vote against the cut in the budget. It

goes beyond UKIP in your party, because this research also showed

that those Conservative members most likely to vote for UKIP, they said

they do not feel valued or respected by their own leadership, and they

regard David Cameron as ideological eat more remote from them than UKIP.

What I would say is look at that list... Let me take that step

further. What people need our series solutions to serious problems. When

people vote for a UKIP MEP, I will say, which one of the 40% of the

MEPs who got in for UKIP last time are you voting for, the ones above

left or defected, the ones have gone to jail? 40% have ended up not

delivering. People have a right to know what to expect when they vote

in these elections. They can look at our record at home, and this goes to

the point you have raised about what we have done in Britain to get this

economy back on track, recover from Labour's recession. We are prepared

to take those decisions in Europe as well. Presumably, active

Conservative members, they know that, so why do they not feel valued

by the leadership? I spend time going up and down the country

meeting Conservative members, and they are on the doorstep, last

weekend 150 out in Enfield campaigning for the European and

local elections... Why are they keen on UKIP? When I meet somebody who

says that, not necessarily a member... Have you met members of

say they will vote UKIP? No, but a vote for UKIP is... Do not do it,

you will end up with Labour having more control, handing away powers to

Europe. 51-year-old meeting members who say they will vote UKIP, you

must be out of touch. -- if you are not meeting members. Some of your

members are thinking of voting UKIP. I spend huge amount of time

travelling around, I just told you about this action day in Enfield,

where we had an enormous turnout. Those members were on the doorsteps

pointing out that you can only get reform in Europe by voting

Conservative. Labour and the Lib Dems will not deliver, UKIP can't,

Conservatives will. You have not got that message across, because a

YouGov poll shows, on Europe, who has the best policies? Tories 18%,

Labour 19%, UKIP 27%. On the economy, Tories 27%, Labour 23, UKIP

4. Why don't you shut up about Europe and talk about the economy?

Look, on the 27th of May, we have European elections, as well as local

elections. If I don't talk about the European elections, you would say

what you said at the beginning about not talking about the local

elections! These are serious elections, and the point I am tried

to make is that the issues at stake are not peripheral, they are not

unimportant. Our MEPs have been battling to cut red tape from a

European level on small businesses, the same thing this government has

been doing for small businesses domestic league, where for example

every small business owner watching this show knows they have got ?2000

back in employment announced on national insurance contributions. We

are doing it at home, we are doing it in Europe, and it is important to

tie that together. Ireland that Mr Cameron saying, you should stop

banging on about Europe... -- I remember. This is before the last

general election, as in days for the Lib Dems, 18%. Even then, you didn't

win the election, and now you are only three or four points ahead, it

doesn't look good for you, does it? Even then, the poll did not turn out

to be what it was on the day. No, that is what happens, that is the

voting intentions now! You are in a worse position than a year before

the last election, which you didn't win. We are almost proving the point

that you can take a clip at any moment in time, not sounding like a

politician, but the only poll that matters is on the day. In just over

a year's time, people will have a completely different picture to look

at than these opinion polls. We have an economy from being a basket

case, the great Labour recession knocking 7% of this economy, hurting

every family, to a point where we the fastest-growing economy in the

developed world. In a year's time, I hope people will see that we are the

people who've taken the difficult decisions, got the economy to the

right place, more security for you and your family. Do not give the car

keys back to the people who crashed it in the first place. If I had a

pound for every time I have heard that! It is clearly not getting

through. On the Pfizer attempted of AstraZeneca, Mr Miliband called this

morning for a tougher public interest test such big takeovers. Do

you agree with that or not? Let me be absolutely clear, if there is any

kind of joining, we are in favour of British jobs, British aren't deep,

expanding our pharmaceutical sector. -- R But what Mr Mallon and wants

to do with rent caps, he is anti-business. -- Mr Miliband. He

wants to take us back to the bad old those. -- bad old days. Should there

be a bigger public interest test? We have seen some takeovers that people

have criticised, but others, like Bentley, Land Rover, which have been

very successful. Should there be a tougher test?! We will have tests

that ensured this get-together becomes a great Anglo-American

project, or it doesn't happen, but the Miliband approach is simply to

be anti-business, anti-jobs and anti-job security. Grant Shapps,

thank you. A challenging week for the Liberal

Democrats with a local election campaign overshadowed by another row

with the Conservatives about knife crime. Adam has spent the day with

Nick Clegg on the campaign trail. How nice! Nick Clegg is taking me on

a political mini break to the Cotswolds. Yes, we are getting the

train. He wants to highlight what his party is doing in local

government, and a personal passion of his in Europe. Graham Watson, the

Lib Dem MEP for the south-west, has been running a campaign to have

prunes recognised as a laxative. Is that Lib Dems battling for Britain

in Europe? It is not our front page manifesto commitment! It is one of

many things that Graham does, he does many other things. In fact, he

is a good example of an MEP who took a pioneering role, for instance, in

making sure... There is the proven world, but also the crime-fighting

role. -- prune. He has done work to make sure that when British

criminals flee justice, we can bring them back. And he has promoted

prunes! First stop, a gorgeous country pub, but it turns out

everyone is a journalist or a very on message activist. Dark days,

being a Lib Dem in the last few years? Strangely not. If you find

you are a Lib Dem deep down, you do not get that disheartened, because

you know that, locally, you are doing so well for the people that

you live next door to that, actually, I find I am almost

impervious to what happens on a national level. I am mayor of

Cirencester. Have you taken any leadership lessons from Nick Clegg,

inspiring new in your leadership of Cirencester? I think what he has

demonstrated his patience. It has been a tough time, he has taken a

lot of flak, and as the mayor of a town, lots of people agree with you

and a fair few don't. You are a full on mayor, he is just a Deputy Prime

Minister, do you outrank him? I don't think so, he is in government,

I am not. So our there any normal people in here? We are from

Swindon, you cannot get more abnormal. Are you a big fan of his?

No! What has he done wrong? I don't believe in his views at all. Where

has he got to? Nigel Farage would have had a pint! At this time in the

morning a copy was more appropriate. I have no time for a drink of any

kind, because now we are off to look at a local traffic blackspot. This

is amazing, like a Lib Dem election leaflet brought to life, Lib Dems

pointing at a road. High-vis jackets! Next we had to giggle full

bath, but there will be no Regency sightseeing for us, oh no, Nick is

taking us to an abandoned wilderness. We have just had a

health and safety briefing, we have been told to look out for

dive-bombing seagulls and an angry fox. That is the sort of thing Nick

Clegg has to put up with. He wants to talk about the economy but he has

to dodge the day's beat new story, letters leaked by a Tory suggesting

that Lib Dems are soft on knife crime. Isn't that a new kind of

warfare? I just think it is silly. They may think they are clever by

catching some headlines but they are not helping people who worry about

knife crime, like I do. We work together... Just like the

Coalition! This is a co-working space where different businesses

share the same office. My time with the Deputy Prime Minister is drawing

to a close. We haven't talked about the most important story of the

week, that you were voted the best looking party leader and the most

likely to be a good cook. Right, this is news to me and I can

guarantee you that my scepticism of opinion polls has just been

confirmed. Just as well because the more serious polls don't look great

for him or his party. Goodbye, and thanks for the offer of a ride

home! He is still walking. Malcolm Bruce

joins us now. According to Lib Dem briefing documents, you are likely

to choose -- lose a big chunk of your MEPs. If you lose a lot, what

would that say about a party that boasts of its pro-Europe

credentials? It would be disappointing because we have the

most hard-working MEPs. The worry that we have is that people think

the European Parliament is not important but it takes decisions

that affect us. They would be disappointing for Britain as well as

the Liberal Democrats. Isn't the problem that the more you bang on

about your pro-European credentials, the more you slip in the polls? I do

think so, we have two weeks to go and we are campaigning extremely

hard. You are forced in the polls. I can tell you there are people out

there who do believe Britain should stay in the EU and they are worried

that other parties will take us out. The Liberal Democrats are clear, we

want to stay in, we will work for reform and do it effectively. If you

lose the Liberal Democrats, Britain's influence in Europe will

be weakened. Your track record in Europe shows you have been

spectacularly wrong again and again. In your 2009 manifesto you said the

European Central Bank and the euro have been tried and tested over ten

years providing a clear picture of the benefits of Eurozone membership

and that proved to be nonsense. It was nonsense everywhere. Every

developed bank in the world was tried and tested and failed. Europe

may not be perfect, but the question people have to decide is if we are

going to leave Europe and be isolated on RM, or use our influence

to reform it from inside. We have allies, you work with them, that is

something the Lib Dems do better than any other parties. Your 2004

manifesto, you claim that being outside the euro would lead to job

losses and reduced prosperity. You were just plain wrong, weren't you?

Yes, but the reason is that to some extent the euro did not observe any

rules and regulations when it was set up. That is why we never

recommended Britain should join at the outset because the criteria had

not been met. In 2001 Nick Clegg was writing to the Financial Times...

Your track record is important. He wrote that the Tisch monetary policy

is not all it is cracked up to be. Britain would gain greater control

over its affairs by joining the euro. How wrong can he be? We have

always argued that the currency had to abide by strict criteria. It

hasn't done so and that is one of the reasons it has failed. We

recognise there is no future for Britain joining the euro and we are

not advocating it. Lets put your 2010 manifesto on the screen. I

didn't say it was not our long-term interest. If Europe succeeds as an

entity, if the euro becomes one of the world leading currencies, there

will come a point when it may be justified. In the circumstances we

are in the moment, there is no recommended timescale. Let's get

this right. Despite the Eurozone crisis which has cost millions of

jobs, countries that were teetering on the brink of bankruptcy, the

Eurozone now facing stagnation and some countries on the brink of

deflation, you still won't rule out Britain joining? We are ruling it

out in the foreseeable future. You can miss the point that we are

working as a coalition partner in government that has secured recovery

for the UK, and working as Liberal Democrats in the parliament that

have cut back the European budget in cooperation with others. What would

the world look like if it were right for Britain to join the euro? You

have 27 states at the moment, with too many countries still struggling

to meet the criteria so until you have a strong and cohesive enough

single Eurozone in which all the countries can meet that criteria,

Britain is better off out. So a more centralised Eurozone, that is what

you would like Britain to join? No, because it can only happen by

consent. Any circumstances in which any further powers would be

transferred from the UK to the EU, we would support a referendum. You

have just said that for the Eurozone to work, it has to be more

centralised and you said if that happens, that is what Britain would

join. I didn't say that, I said it would require the consent of all

member states to agree to the criteria. We certainly do not

envisage joining in the foreseeable future. Since you are the proud

party of in, why weren't you just give us a referendum on in or out?

Because it has to have a context. What David Cameron is doing is

dangerous because I think the major players like Britain and France are

not keen on the idea of being bullied into reforms on the

instigation of just one member state which is threatening possibility to

withdraw. They will have to agree to rules... Just have it now. Do you

want in or out? To have a referendum against no background is to put it

out of context. We are in the middle of a crisis, a year away from the

general election. We have made it clear... You said we are in the

middle of the Eurozone crisis? So we are not in the middle of it? What's

the middle? The reality is that the Western world has gone through a

deep crisis. The UK is coming out of it, the Eurozone is coming out of

it. Greece have been able to borrow on the markets in recent weeks which

is a sign of success. It is in our interest is the Eurozone succeeds

and recovers and we should be part of it but not necessarily on the

same conditions as everyone else. The Liberal Democrats work with

others to deliver Britain's interests and if they are not there,

their interests will be undermined. You are watching Sunday Politics. We

say goodbye to viewers in Scotland now.

Hello and welcome to the West Country part of the show on this

bank holiday weekend. Coming up, we'll be taking a health check of

the NHS, one year after the biggest changes in its history. And what do

you get when you ask half a dozen Conservative MPs to write down the

powers they'd like back from Brussels? We'll explore if David

Cameron has the "je ne sais quoi" needed to unite his troops.

First, let's meet our guests. They are the Conservative MP for North

Wiltshire, James Gray, and the Independent Mayor of Bristol, George

Ferguson. Let's start with that announcement from Labour over

capping rent rises for tenants. I have written a lot about housing. Is

a sense that there is more demand and supply, and therefore rent is

becoming unaffordable for some people. So I do think we need to

look at the way we can give access to people who are more vulnerable,

who are unable to afford rent, and an awful lot of people who are not

housed who we have to deal with people dealing with short tenancies.

And Bristol is packed with buy to let properties. Absolutely. The

devil will be in the detail. James, has Ed Miliband got the upper hand

again by talking about the cost`of`living crisis and appealing

to a lot of bubble in rented accommodation and want protection?

It is old`fashioned socialism, you cannot control rent any more than

you can control energy, which is the last attempt to curry favour with

voters. To say to a landlord, you cannot increase your rent by more

than a certain percent per year, why shouldn't you? It is their property

and they bought it. But you could have the tenant over the barrel. But

you do anyway. The Socialists used to protect people, they controlled

rent a lot of years ago, and in `` it never worked. If I charge too

much, my tenant leaves and I get someone else. At the central

government trying to control how much I charge is absurd.

It's been a year since GPs were put in charge of a large chunk of the

NHS budget and ` for some ` it has not been an easy start. As well as

having to make huge savings, the Clinical Commissioning Groups that

doctors run are facing legal challenges over how they spend their

money. Here's our Health Correspondent Matthew Hill.

Dr Matthew Dolman used to spend more time with patients in his local town

of Axbridge. Here he is back doing the rounds. But now it's more likely

he'll be found here. He chairs a group of fellow GPs who now have to

choose where to spend money on health services. It follows the

biggest overhaul of the NHS in its history. Up until a year ago,

managers working for the Primary Care Trust would commission services

like emergency care, hospital treatment and mental health

services. Now that work is done by GPs on Clinical Commissioning Groups

or CCGs. And the budgets are huge. In Somerset alone Dr Dolman's CCG

has ?650m to spend. The government says these groups are more in tune

with the needs of their area but critics say doctors don't have the

time or training to take on such an important role. It is an enormous

task in trying to support the health and social care services as we move

forward in an incredibly challenging financial environment.

The financial challenge that Dr Dolman faces is that the group has

to make savings of ?500 million over the next five years. That's ?40

million a year. And it seems likely that one of the avenues they are

going to have to explore is how they're going to use community

hospitals. With around a quarter of beds in the county's community

hospitals lying empty, the Somerset CCG has decided to mothball some `

like here in Shepton Mallett. The CCG argues patients like Mike Sale

are better off being treated at home. But fundraisers fear it's the

start of a slippery slope. Yes, they will probably get 40 minutes a day

from an occupational therapist or physiotherapist, but for the other

23 hours, they will be dependent on what? Social services? Another CCG

in the West faces more than just criticism. In Bristol these

campaigners are taking legal action to fighting plans to contract out

NHS services to private companies. It is time for the CCG to stop

defending the indefensible and put transparent arrangements in place

that explains to patients precisely how they will be involved in all the

decision`making by the CCG. Campaigners say this is the faceless

and unaccountable new NHS, which has no safety net in place to make sure

patients are consulted properly on any changes.

In a statement, the CCG say they take their commitment to the public

very seriously but they maintain flexibility over the extent of

consultation and exercise. GPs may not be used to patients questioning

their decisions. But as their budgets become tighter and tighter,

it seems they may have to get used to having their judgement

challenged. Well, we did ask to speak to a

Health Minister or indeed any chair of a local CCG but no`one was

available. We can, though, talk to Mike Campbell from the campaign

group Protect Our NHS which is taking its legal challenge against

the Bristol CCG to the High Court. Why shouldn't we trust our GPs to

make the right decisions? This is not about not trusting them to make

these decisions. We need to look at this in the context of the

reorganisation of the NHS. So what is the problem? Mr Cameron said

there would be no top`down reorganisation of the NHS, and at a

cost of ?3 billion we have massive reorganisation. We have a situation

where the Secretary of State was my duty to helping a National Health

Service has been abolished. We have increasing competition, health

services being privatised... People still go to the GPs and then get

referred to hospital, which is free, so what is the problem? The idea of

giving patients more choice has become more and more confusing. I

was speaking to a GP last night, and he says they often do not know where

they are faring a patient because there are so many options. Is this

mess? Many years ago, people complained and said they should

bring back the doctors running the NHS, and that is what this has done.

We got rid of lots and lots of pen pushers, the doctors and nurses

hacking charge. But what has happened as there has been an

increase in bureaucracy since the health and social care act. But do

you want to unpick it? I am seeing a massive organisation has put more

pressure on GPs, health care workers and patients. Waiting lists are

longer. And you are in charge of public health now in Bristol? Yes, I

have a great fan of the NHS. We had to move to a system that was much

more joined up. I am very keen on us looking after early intervention, so

that we reduce the problem early on. Does this allow you to do that? It

does. But by shifting... But by shifting this across... I think it

has improved the way we look after people. If you go to your doctor and

say you have a bad back, do you not want your GP to be concentrating on

your body rather than getting him out to do a deal with the hospital?

Now, the number of GPs in the NHS are relatively small. Most

consultants are still doing their proper daytime job. The National

Health Service should be free. That is the only important thing about

it. I think the National Health Service is the best we have got in

the world, and the way we run it is rather good. Thank you very much for

coming in. It was another good week for UKIP.

They came top in an opinion poll ahead of the European elections. But

while they want out of Europe, David Cameron is trying to strike a new

deal with the continent. Can negotiations on such a huge scale of

work? `` ever work? Four party leader swept through the West in as

many days. But as different as they may be politically, each were united

in condemning the Prime Minister was a European pledge, to try to take

back power from Brussels. Whether it was the pro`European Lib

Dems... David Cameron is trying to paper over the cracks. The

anti`European UKIP. Why would anyone believe anything they say? The

Conservatives offered a divided arty. If you think about what David

Cameron wants, we are 180 degrees in the other direction. After a brief

battle with the flip chart, we were ready to compile a list of what they

want back. They came and they wrote, and they wrote, and they wrote some

more. Some of it was easy to understand. Now, to the EU army. And

Napoleonic code system trying to work. We had five West Country MPs

contribute to this, but you can see the length of the list. There are

some themes here, benefits comes up time and time again, but there are

some specific details that Mr Cameron has to take on board,

Habitat directive, fisheries, insurance, law and order, the Prime

Minister will have his work cut out. First ahead to the road. The first

place, the European commission representation. Most of these things

can be achieved with our friends in Europe. These things are exactly

what the Germans, the Dutch, the Swedes, they have already signed up

to it. These are things that can be achieved but they do not have to be

achieved by separating, they can be achieved by reform with our friends.

But others don't trying to renegotiate with 27 other countries

would ever be that simple. This chairman beats the think tank

founded by Margaret Thatcher. Bashed the Eurosceptic think tank. The

French president said it cannot work. There has to be some changes

to some directives, but for significant changes, the West

Country MPs have talked about immigration, restricting courts

interfering in our affairs, it cannot happen. Reform may not be as

easy as some make out, and while the argument over what can and can't be

achieved goes on, one man is happy to debate it, Nigel Farage.

Renegotiation is a pipe dream, isn't it? It is not, it is extremely

important. In all my years in politics, everyone wanted a free

trade area. We need to bring back a lot of power to the European Union

and reorganise the architecture of the European Union. We have got to

battle for those things and at the end of this, if we do not get it,

people have the opportunity to say yes or no. So when can we say that

that we have got it and we need the public to make a decision? We will

either... We are the only party who will offer the referendum. No one

else can do it. We need to vote Conservative to get that referendum.

And you are man very keen on Europe? Bristol has done very well out of

Europe. Before I became the Mayor of Bristol,

it is ahead of office, very grandly titled. There is no deputy. If

Bristol is not well represented, we will miss out. There is a trillion

European funds available. How much are you paying for the desk and the

person? The desk is 4000, but I do not know how much the person will

be, it depends on the person. Let us bring back to broader issue. You can

be as Eurosceptic as you like, so why are you bothering to try to

defend this? Mr Farage cannot deliver the referendum. Only a

Conservative government can offer a referendum. Either we will be

negotiate the terms of trade or we will vote and campaign to leave. But

they could skewer you at the next elections? I do not think so.

There will only be eight choices on your ballot paper for the European

elections ` down from 17 last time around. And to help you make your

make your mind up, we've asked all eight parties to pitch for your

votes. Here are four, in no particular order.

The European elections are on the 22nd of May, not a referendum on the

membership of the union, they are about who will stand up for the

people of this region. If I elected, my priorities will be to

bring good quality jobs to this region. It will be to make sure that

we become world leaders on new green technologies that our region is rich

in opportunity for. And it is to have secure jobs for this region.

Good employment rights. What we stand for is an end to the burden of

EU regulation on the British economy. It is the laws that we here

in blood and others do not. When we leave the EU, we will be able to

make our own trade agreements with the outside world. For example, New

Zealand has a trade agreement with China. 75% of our laws are made in

Brussels. Artist to many. We want an end to open borders. The Green party

are positive about Europe. We value the way that Europe protect the

quality, water quality, conditions at work and animal welfare. However

we know that things need reform, particularly the power of

corporations, and we need to make Europe and politicians work better

the common good. We have had enough of interference in trade and

industry by the EU. Farming as a way of life no longer exists, and even

where farmers are successful, they have do operate in a way that often

involves too much red tape. We need to re`engaging the Commonwealth, the

Commonwealth that stretches across the world. 53 countries that are

willing to do trade with us and offered us much more opportunity

than the EU has ever done. And we'll feature the remaining four

parties in our programme next week. Now, let's take a look back at the

political week in our 60 Second round`up.

Politicians and union leaders and ordinary people gathered in Bristol

to remember the life of the city's former MP Tony Benn. His son Hilary

was among those at the service which opened with a union anthem.

It was a good week for motorists in Bath. Over a quarter of a million

pounds will be refunded to those who have fallen foul of the Dorchester

Street bus gate. The council admitted its own warning signs were

not clear enough. The Church of England showed that it

too can move in mysterious ways. It reversed a decision over the living

arrangements for the new Bishop of Bath and Wells. The Right Reverend

Peter Hancock will now live in the Bishop's Palace and not a rectory

nearby. And the Mayor of Bristol's drive to Make Sundays Special

returns today. Roads have been closed off to make way for street

performers. Around 100,000 people applied for tickets for the main

attraction ` a giant water`slide down Park Street.

By the time you watch this, you might be sliding down Park Street.

Will you have a goal? I gave the job to the youth candidates, because

that is more appropriate. I think my biggest fear is the size of the

cloud. Go to all these other things, there are food festivals, millennium

Square, folk Festival, Bristol is alive with activity today. Do you

get the feeling that Bristol is leading the region in terms of

leisure activities and cultural stuff? It has always been a great

city. My son was at university he. It is a very young and happening

place. I do not get to come here very often. I think North Wiltshire

lead the region, though! And that is all we have time for this week.

Thank you to our guests James Gray and George Ferguson for making our

Sunday special. We'll be back with more build`up to the European and

local elections next week. If you can't

got time for this week. Next week, London's local elections.

Welcome back. Now, the Government is not very good at predicting the

future. That's according to a report from a committee of MPs this morning

who say that its Horizon Scanning programme that's supposed to

identify potential threats, risks, emerging issues and opportunities

isn't much good at reading the tea leaves. But can it really be any

worse than our panel? Here they are predicting the future of then

culture secretary Maria Miller before Easter.

Can she survive? I'm getting out of the prediction game after I said

Nick Clegg would win the debates. But I almost think she might. If

there is a big event that moves this off the front pages. David Cameron

will want to keep Maria Miller until at least his summary shuffle. I

think they will get rid of her. I think they will do the decent thing

after exhausting all other options. Maria Miller resigned a few days

later of course! The best and the brightest, when did that slip in?

This week it will be exactly a year until the General Election, so what

better time to get our panel to gaze into their crystal balls again.

What's the outcome of the election in 2015? I'm going to go with the

polls and say Ed Miliband as the Prime Minister. But the polls are

only a snapshot of opinion now, you think they will be the same in a

year? No, I think they will narrow. I think UKIP's vote share will fall.

I think they are currently coasting on a high and that will tailor way

so they won't take as many votes off the Tories. Labour with a majority

or is the largest party. Another liberal Conservative coalition, and

I say that because he is already in touching distance of Labour. I don't

think UKIP will get 15, maybe half of that, and most of the votes they

lose will either not vote at all go to the Tories and that should be

enough to be the biggest party in a hung parliament I don't envisage a

Tory majority. I am also going to go with the polls. For Ed Miliband to

be hoping to win at this stage, he has got to be way ahead in the

polls. Labour needs to be much further ahead if he is going to win

so David Cameron, probably the leader of the largest party. Last

time after the election David Cameron went to the 1922 committee

and announced he was Prime Minister as head of the Coalition. He has

agreed this time he will consult them and it will be much more

difficult for him to get a coalition. People at home have now

concluded there will be a Liberal Democrat landslide! Are we going to

have debates? Yes, probably further away from polling day then last

time. That is the Liberal Democrat point, isn't it? Yes, it sucks all

the life out of the campaign, so the last six weeks will be left to

traditional campaigning. What did you make of this in the Sunday Times

this morning, this two, three, five formula. There should be a Cameron,

Ed Miliband, Nick Clegg debate, then there should be another one with

them and UKIP and the Greens. It might be testing the patience of the

nation to tune into all of those. If you're going to say Nigel Farage

should be there, the Green party should be too. They know that as

soon as you put them on a podium next to them, he looks like he has

equal stature and that is a problem. David Cameron does not want the

debates to happen on the way they happened last time. It is generally

regarded, Lynton Crosby believes they were a disaster for David

Cameron because they allowed Nick Clegg to be the fresh person. He

knows he cannot say no to them so the moment you see David Cameron

suggesting that Caroline Lucas should be in the debate, you know he

is not serious. What he will try to do is have more debates, have them

outside the main part of the general election so that it doesn't

dominate. The problem the David Cameron is that the campaign will be

much longer. It is a five-week campaign so it is quite difficult

for him to say we will only have one debate in that campaign. I think

smother it with love, hopefully it will go to the courts for him and

hopefully they will never happen and he will be delighted. The European

election and the local elections are coming up. The three mainstream

parties are saying it is a flash in the pan, they don't really matter

and so on, but if UKIP comes a strong first, if Labour comes a poor

second and the Tories come a poor third, it will have consequences for

all three, and the Lib Dems come forth or even fish. It will have

consequences and not just in the media but on the ground. One of the

big stories is what will happen to the Lib Dems, they face losing all

of their MEPs. A good result for them is lit -- in the local

elections is losing 250 councillors. These are the most interesting

elections we have had for some time. Are we heading for a Nick

Clegg summer leadership crisis? I think we are heading towards

reversing the clock back to where we were before the Eastleigh

by-election. That quiet and things down for Nick Clegg. If they lose

all their MEPs, and there is a real chance they will, Vince Cable will

be out on manoeuvres because age is not on his side. If he can say Nick

Clegg is a loser and a failure, he will be back. Will the Tories go

into headless chicken mode if they come third? Yes, if UKIP come first

there will not be as much panic as if Labour come first. Is Labour

comes a poor second, will there be some pressure on Ed Miliband to

reopen his attitude to the referendum? I don't think so and my

colleague was talking to Labour sources who said he is absolutely

not going to. That is something you can say definitely about him, he

decides on a course and he sticks to it. There is one potential upside

for David Cameron in a really bad Conservative results, it could

strengthen his hand in the renegotiations of Britain's EU

membership because he doesn't even need to say to Angela Merkel and

Francois Hollande it is there. David Cameron hasn't just been fighting

for his party into the local elections. He also got his knuckles

wrapped by the Speaker, John Bercow, at Prime Minister's Question Time,

for talking for too long. Take a look at this. There is a better

future ahead of us but we must not go backward to the policies that put

us in this mess in the first place. I don't know what they are paying

him, Mr Speaker. Order, order. I haven't finished! In response to

that question, the Prime Minister has finished and he can take it from

me that he has finished. I can't remember a speaker ever speaking to

a Prime Minister like that. Clearly in that case, John Bercow crossed a

line. It is Prime Minister 's questions, he is entitled to answer

the questions. There is really bad blood between those two, going back

a long way. They hate each other and the worrying thing about that was

the look of triumphalism on the speaker's face afterwards. He is a

remarkable, revolutionary speaker who has made the House of Commons

more relevant, he is holding the executive to account, but that look

on his face showed he had crossed the line. Does he survive after the

next election? He has improved the importance of the Commons, is that

enough to keep him in the Speaker 's chair? The most public bit of the

Commons is still the Prime Minister 's questions, and we can conclude

that John Bercow's interventions take more time than any delays he

complains about so I wouldn't be surprised if, in a few years' time,

someone else replaces him. He is quite popular with Labour, is he

not? Yes, he is married to a Labour activist and is notably sympathetic

to Labour but I think this is a difficult situation. David Cameron

also overstepped the line. As soon as the speaker says order, the idea

is that the House was to order and David Cameron pushed him. They are

both trying to score points off each other. We cover Prime Minister 's

questions every week on the daily politics, and there is a danger that

he sees it as an opportunity to do some grandstanding. You slightly

sends his vanity gets the better of him. It is supposed to be Prime

Minister 's questions. At the end of that session, the Speaker read out a

statement from the Chief clerk, and immensely respected figure, saying

he is taking early retirement. It is pretty clear that the reason he has

decided to go early is because he is finding it tricky to maintain a

cordial relationship with the speaker, and the speaker might want

to think about his man management skills. That's all for today. The

Daily Politics will be back on BBC Two at lunchtime from Tuesday

onwards. Remember, it is a bank holiday tomorrow. I'll be back here

at 11am next week. Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday

Politics.