11/05/2014 Sunday Politics West

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics, where we're talking

about the Europe-wide contest that really matters. No, not Eurovision.

The European elections. There are local elections across England too

on May 22nd. The party leaders are campaigning ahead of polling day.

The results could be a pointer to the Big One, May 2015. We'll be

speaking to the man in charge of Labour's election battle plan. Has

the opposition really got its sights set on all-out victory in 2015? Or

will it just be content with squeaking home? And you can't

mention elections these days without talking about the impact of this

Coming up in the West: We will have him if UKIP really is fit for

Coming up in the West: We will have all the local

And I'm joined by three journalists guaranteed to bring a touch of

Eurovision glamour to your Sunday morning. With views more

controversial than a bearded Austrian drag act and twice the

dress sense, it's Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. So you might

have thought you've already heard David Cameron promise an in-out

referendum on EU membership in 2017 if he's still Prime Minister. Many

times. Many, many times. Well he obviously doesn't think you've been

listening, because he's been saying it again today. Here he is speaking

to the BBC earlier. We will hold a referendum by the end of 2017. It

will be a referendum on an in-out basis. Do we stay in a reformed

European Union or do we leave? And I've said very clearly that whatever

the outcome of the next election, and of course I want an overall

majority and I'm hoping and believing I can win an overall

majority, that people should be in no doubt I will not become Prime

Minister unless I can guarantee that we will hold a referendum. Here's

saying there that an overall majority there will definitely be a

referendum. If these are the minority position, he won't form a

new coalition unless they agree to a referendum, too. The Lib Dems a

pulmonary agree to that. They probably will because the Prime

ministers have a strong argument which is I gave you a referendum

back in 2010 so the least I need is theirs and the Lib Dems are the only

party who have stood in recent elections on a clear mandate to hold

a referendum, so it is difficult for them to say no, there was

interesting the interview he did earlier today. He named everything

was going to ask for. The most controversial with him, as he said

in his speech last year, he wants to take Britain out of the commitment

to make the European Union and ever closer union. That is a very big

ask, but the point is, he may well get it because the choice for the

European Union now, France and Germany, is a clear wonderful do

Britain in or out? Previously, it was can you put up with a British

prime ministers being annoying? I think you'll find the answer is they

are willing to pay a price but not any price to keep Britain in. In

this scenario, Labour would have lost the election again because we

are talking the slowly happen if Mr Cameron is the largest party or has

an overall majority. Could you then see Labour deciding we had better go

along with a referendum, too? I think that's unlikely because as I

think that's unlikely because there's a huge upside for that for I

think what's interesting is the idea he would for minority government.

Would you get confidence and look at other options that might well happen

with the way the arithmetic is going or is he going to hold out and say

the only way I will be Prime Minister is in a majority

Conservative government? No, the implication of his remarks was I

wouldn't form a coalition government unless my coalition partners would

also agree to vote for a referendum. He's basically talking about is

negotiating strategy in those coalition talks. It's a red line and

a huge opportunity for the Lib Dems, because they know David Cameron

absolutely has to do, for accidental reasons, as a person who survives as

Tory leader, to ask for that referendum, so they can ask anything

they want in return and if I was Nick Clegg, I would work out in the

next year one absolute colossal negotiating demand for those

coalition talks. For a party around 10% in the polls, they will do have

the Prime Minister over a barrel on this one, assuming that coalition

talks goes well. They could make Michael Gove Tbyte meeting. OK, we

need to move on. So, the politicians are out and about on what used to be

called the stump ahead of local and European elections in less than two

weeks' time. But, without wanting to depress you on a damp Sunday

morning, the party strategists are already hard at work on their

campaign plans for the General Election next May. Yes, it's less

than a year to go. They may have taken their time, but Labour's

battleplan for 2015 is starting to take shape. As well as take

promising to freeze your energy bills, and reintroduce the 50p rate

of tax, Ed Miliband now says he wants to intervene in the housing

market to keep rents down. There's even talk that the party leadership

wants to bring more railway lines into public ownership. And Labour is

gambling that its big push on the cost of living will see it through

to the general election despite evidence that growth is firmly back.

Labour's campaign chief Douglas Alexander hopes it all adds up to

victory next May. But so far, the evidence is hitting home very thin.

One survey today shows that 56% of people don't think Mr Miliband is up

to the job of Prime Minister. As we head towards one of the least

predictable general elections in 70 years, has Labour got a message to

win seats up and down the country? And Labour's election co-ordinator

and Shadow Foreign Secretary, Douglas Alexander, joins me now.

Welcome to Sunday Politics. A lot of these policies announced polar

pretty well. By popular with the country. When you add them together,

it's a move to the left and what would be wrong with that? I think is

your packet suggests, the contours in the coming campaign are becoming

clear. Our judgement is the defining issue of the year in British

politics will be the widening gap between the wealth of the country

and the finances of ordinary families. We believe it will be a

cost of living election and we have been setting out our thinking in

relation to energy prices and rent, but you will hear more from Labour

Party in the coming months because we're now less than one year away

from a decisive moment. If the leftish think tank suggested any of

his policies in that Tony Blair years, you would have opposed them.

Let's be clear, when not going for an interest but seeking to secure a

majority for the only way to do that is not simply to appeal to your

base, but to the centre ground. I believe we got genuine opportunities

in the next year. You have the Conservatives in a struggle with

UKIP on the right of politics. The Lib Dems 9% of trying to find their

base, and there's a genuine opportunity in the next year for

Labour to dominate the centre ground of politics and secure the majority

Labour government we are planning for in the coming year. I notice you

didn't deny you wouldn't have opposed. You say you have got an

message for aspirational voters in the South. This is what John Denham

said. He thinks you're talking too much to your core vote.

He is right to recognise we took a terrible beating in 2010. 29%. If

you look at what we've done in the last week, for example, the

signature policy on rent Ed Miliband announced to launch the campaign,

there's now more than 9 million people in the country in the private

rented sector, more than 1 million families. Many of them are in the

south-east. They are seeing circumstances where, suddenly,

landlord will increase the rent and they put the pressure involved in

schooling, health care facing the families, so it is important both in

terms of policy and in terms of politics that we speak to the whole

country, not simply to one part of it falls up what is the average rise

in event last year? I don't know. Can you tell me? 1%. 1% not in real

terms. I'm not sure what the problem is. It will happen to wages in last

year, we are facing circumstances where people will be worse off, up

to ?1600 off worse and frankly, if our opponents want to argue that the

economy has healed and they deserve a victory lap, good luck to them

because actually, what we are hearing from the Buddhist public,

not just in the north and south, is not the cost living crisis is

continuing and it affects families. There was nothing aspirational about

your party election broadcast for the European elections. It looked

like crude class war to money people. That's a bit of it. Bedroom

tax. Isn't it going to look bad that two thirds of those affected are

disabled? Who cares? They can't fight back. Shall be lay-offs and

NHS nurses? The National Health Service? Oh yes. Mr Cameron? Who

said that? Me. My gosh. The man has shrunk. He's actually shrunk. What

shall we do with him? Can we hunt him? Nothing about Europe, Labour

policy. News that the Tories would result in negative campaigning and

smear. You didn't tell you would be just as bad. Let's start the party

broadcast. The one thing guaranteed to have most people reaching for the

remote control these days are the words, there now follows a party but

the broadcast. I make no apology in the factory to be innovative in how

we presented. It's factual. It was a policy -based critic of this

government. And the Lib Dems role within it. So you're claiming it's

factual to betray the camera and cabinet is not even knowing what the

NHS is, -- the Cameron Cabinet. They attack the disabled because they

can't fight back. The Pinellas Tanner severely Prime Minister Sun

and he was treated during a short life by the NHS. It's a fact many

disabled people across the country including in my constituency have

been directly affected by the bedroom tax. And ultimately, this

Conservative led government, including the Lib Dems, will be held

accountable by the politicians. You say that, the Prime Minister, who

had a severely disabled son of. I you not ashamed about? I shadowed

Iain Duncan Smith of five months also they don't have the excuses of

seeing that saying nobody told them the consequences of the bedroom tax.

They went into this with their eyes open. They knew about the hardship

and difficulty. If they were one-bedroom properties available

across the country for people to move into, their argument would be

OK but they knew they were dealing with the most vulnerable people. Did

you sign off that part of the broadcast? Of course I stand by the

fact of it. I wish David Cameron and Iain Duncan Smith would apologise to

the disabled people of the country and the poorest people for the

effects of the bedroom tax. I hope we get that apology between now and

election. As someone who thinks integrity is important in politics,

not ashamed of this kind of thing? It's important we scrutinise the

policies of this government as well as adding a positive agenda for

change. You want that you won't promise this is the last time we'll

see such a negative press campaign? I don't think it is negative or

personal to scrutinise the government. So we'll get more of

this? I'm less interested in the background of the cabinet than their

views. You call the upper-class twits. It's for the British public

to make a judgement in terms of the British... That's how you depicted

them. We are held in accountable for the bedroom tax, the NHS, taxation,

and our record they have to defend. One reason are so fearful in this

election is actually because they know they have a poor record. Let's

look at other part of the election campaign. This poster. Particularly

digitally doing the rounds. On that shopping basket, can you tell us

which items take the full 20% VAT? It's representative of household

shopping, which includes items like cleaning products, and we know that

food is not that trouble. People don't go to the supermarket and say

this is -- vatable. So you are denying that ?450 extra is being

paid? Yes, where'd you get that figure? For an average family to pay

?450 a year extra VAT, they would have to spend ?21,600 a year on

vatable products at 20%. The average take-home pay is only 21,009. They

have got to spend on all sorts of things which are zero VAT. So in

addition to the items, has a range of products people face in terms of

VAT. How could an average family of ?21,000 a year spent 21,006 and the

pound a year on 20% vatable items? It's not an annual figure, is it? So

what is it then? If it's an annual, what is it? The increased VAT in

this parliament is calculated over the course of a Parliament. For the

whole of the Parliament? And you're illustrated this with a shopping

basket which almost has no VAT on it at all? People will be buying a

weekly shop in the course of this Parliament every week. Did you sign

off on this as well? Of course. It didn't dawn on you you're putting

things on it which have no VAT? If you want to argue some people go to

the shops and say these are vatable or not, I disagree. Even your rent

cap announcement went wrong. You're working on the rent rises and it

turns out it wasn't. It was a post your policy. It is the exception

rather than the rule to have the position we have at the moment. In

Northern Ireland we have seen the continued rise in terms of the

rented sector but there is a widespread recognition that for

those people in the rented sector, change is necessary. Are you

coordinating this campaign? It seems accident prone. This is a party that

has set the agenda more effectively than a Conservative party that said

when David Cameron was elected he wasn't going to bang on about

Europe. The day after the election we expect the Conservative party to

be engulfed in crisis. I'm proud of what we talk about and I think there

is a clear contrast about a party talking about issues people care

about, and a Conservative party talking about exclusively a

referendum. Are you in charge of the campaign? I am coordinating the

campaign is, yes. The expensive election guru you have hired, has he

been involved in any of this? We have started our discussions with

him. You are going to have to brief him about British politics because

he doesn't know anything about it. I make no apology for hiring him. He

has a lot of experience in winning tight elections and that is what we

are expecting. If you are expecting us to say, they have passed and we

have to hold them accountable, then I am sorry but we have a campaign

that holds the Government and the Conservatives to account for what I

think is a very hopeless record in government. Thank you.

He leads a party with zero MPs but his media presence is huge. He's had

an expenses scandal, but the public didn't seem to mind. He's got a

privileged background but he's seen as an anti-establishment champion.

Nothing seems to stick to him, not even eggs. I speak of course of

Nigel Farage. We'll talk to him in a moment, but first Giles has been out

on the campaign trail ahead of elections that could make or break

the UKIP leader. Nigel Farage likes a stage, and at

this stage of the Euro and local election campaign he is, like his

party, in buoyant mood. They feel they are on the verge of what they

see as causing an earthquake in British politics. Today Nigel is

filling thousands seat venues and bigger. Not that there's much sign

of that at this press launch. But it's a threat with serious money

behind it, that they believe the media and the political elite just

haven't realised yet, much less learned how to counter it. Not that

it's all been plain sailing. Offensive comments from some

candidates has not only seen UKIP labelled as racist, but necessitated

a rally by the party to visibly and verbally challenge that. The

offensive idiotic statements made by this handful of people have been

lifted up and presented to the great British public as if they represent

the view of this party, which they do not. They never have and they

never will. APPLAUSE I don't care what you call us, but

from this moment on, please do not call must trust a racist party. We

are not a racist party. The need to say that is not just

about the European and local elections even at that campaign

launch it's clear UKIP's leader has set his sights firmly on the

ultimate prize. I come from the south of England and I would not

want to be seen as an opportunist heading to the north, north Norfolk

or whatever it will be. I will make my mind up and stand in the general

election for somewhere in Kent, East Sussex, Hampshire, somewhere in my

home patch. Back at UKIP HQ they are still drilling down how the last

fortnight of campaigning should go. They aren't taking any chances, and

one imagines having offices above those of Max Clifford is a reminder

how fragile built reputations can be of the bubble bursting. They want

their reputation to be built on votes and they know anything but

significant success on May 22nd and some seats in Westminster in 2015

isn't going to be good enough. And after that, having sold yourselves

as the honest outsiders, that stance is harder to maintain once your

people are on the inside. And subtle changes from the past are already

noticeable. The ordinary man of the people stance is still working.

Characteristically outside a pub, Nigel Farage is glad handed by a

customer. Two weeks to go, let's cause an upset. Wouldn't that be

great? The only sign that such an interaction is different now is the

ever presence of bodyguards who shadow his every move. Over lunch

ahead of Question Time, a radio appearance, and then off to

Scotland, I ask him if some of those minded to vote UKIP who see him as a

man they'd be comfortable having a drink with are the sort of people

he'd be entirely comfortable sitting down with. Every political party

attracts support from across the spectrum and there will be some

magnificent people who vote for us and some ne'er-do-wells. The one

common thing about UKIP voters is that they are often not very

political. And it's that people's army that if UKIP can get to a

polling booth might just create that earthquake they want.

Nigel Farage joins me now. When you decided not to stand at the new work

by election coming said if you lost it that the bubble would have

burst. What did you mean by that? I was asked at seven 20p -- at 7:21pm

if I would stand, I have decided by the next morning that I would not. I

didn't know he was going to resign. You claim only a handful of UKIP

candidates have ever said things that are either stupid or offensive,

I'm right on that, yes? 0.1%, I'd rather it was non-. But why have you

chosen a candidate to fight this by-election that has said many

things most people would regard as stupid or offensive? Roger is

fighting this for us, someone of 70 years of age who grew up with a

strong Christian Bible background, in an age when homosexuality was

imprisonable. He had a certain set of views which he maintained for

many years which he now says he accepts the world has moved on and

he is relaxed about it. The comments about homosexuality are not from the

dark ages, they are from two or three years ago. From when he was a

Conservative, yes, so will you be asking David Cameron that question?

I have never seen a single comment from Roger that would be deemed to

be offensive. Do you regard his comments on homosexuality as

offensive? When he grew up, homosexuality was illegal in this

country. But this was in 2012 but he said that. Most people have his age

still feel uncomfortable about it -- of his age. In 2012 he said, if two

men can be married, why not three, why not a commune. Many people in

this country are disconcerted by the change in the meaning of marriage

and in a tolerant society we understand that some people have

different views. But he has changed his views now in only two years? He

says he is more relaxed about it. Was he your candidate? He is a

first-class campaigner who has had 30 years in industry, he served in

the European Parliament, he is a good candidate. This morning's

papers suggest you are about to select Victoria Ayling for Grimsby,

but she is on camera saying that, of immigrants, I just want to send a

lot back. This is all very interesting, and we can talk about

it, all we could talk about the fact that in 12 days we have a European

election and every voter across the UK can vote on it and it is really

interesting. Are you happy to pick a candidate that says of immigrants, I

just want to send a lot back? I have seen the tape, it is a complete

misquote and she says it in the context of illegal immigrants. I

have seen the full quote and in the context it is not about illegal

immigrants. Let's come onto the European campaign, you have used a

company that employs Eastern European is to deliver leaflets in

London and the Home Counties. Have we? I'm told that in Croydon one

branch might have done that. Have you found some indigenous Brits to

deliver leaflets in Europe? We have thousands joining the party every

month and they are not all indigenous because what is

interesting is that in today's opinion polls, UKIP is above the Lib

Dems and the Conservatives amongst the indigenous voting.

We have not agreed a manifesto for the general election, we will do

over the course of the summer. This is in your local election. We are

having local elections in some part of the country but we are fighting a

European election. It is impossible with the British media to have an

intelligent debate on the European question. But as I say, we are also

fighting the local elections too. You have promised these tax cuts,

how much will they cost? I have met -- read the local election manifesto

and it doesn't make those promises. We do talk about local services, we

do talk about the need to keep council tax down but we don't talk

about income tax. Absolutely not. In local election campaigning you say

you would restore cuts to policing, double prison places, restore cuts

to front line NHS, spend more on roads, how much would that cost? You

are obviously reading different documents to me. We are voting for

local councillors in district councils who have got little local

budgets. Every party in a manifesto puts his aspirations in it. Have you

read it? Of course I have, cover to cover, which is why I'm saying you

are misquoting it. By the way, on the bubble bursting, you told that

to Norman Smith of the BBC. 75% of British laws are now made in the

European Union. Now AstraZeneca is potentially going to be taken over

by Pfizer. The BBC is refusing to show the public that that decision

cannot be taken here but by an elected European commissioner, and

we sit and argue about what is in or not in the local election manifesto.

It is my job, but let me come on to AstraZeneca. Is it your view that a

British government should stop the takeover of AstraZeneca? It cannot.

Can we please get this clear. I sat next to Chuka Umunna the other day

at question time and he said what could and couldn't be done. He said

I am being studiously neutral, and the reason is we don't have this

power. That is what the European elections is about. Should France

have the takeover of the food company Danan? We seem to do things

to the Nth degree and nobody else does, perhaps because we have this

culture and we obey it. In your view, you don't think Pfizer should

be able to take over AstraZeneca? There is some good science within

AstraZeneca which is in danger of being asset stripped and lost.

Because it is run by a Swede and a Frenchman and most of its employees

are overseas. I understand that but there are still some good science

being produced here. What did you think of the Prime Minister saying

he would not form a government after the election unless he was able to

have a referendum in 2017? I sat here talking to you and you said to

me that David Cameron had given a cast-iron guarantee that if David

Cameron becomes Prime Minister he will have a referendum on the Lisbon

Treaty, but he didn't deliver on that. He knows that people struggle

to believe the renegotiation is worth a row of beans. He is saying

he will not form a government unless he can go forward with the

referendum. I know he is desperately trying to pretend to be Eurosceptic

whilst at the same time saying he will campaign for Britain to remain

in. In a sense, that is what this election is about. We have three

traditional parties, all of whom passionately believe in the

continued membership of the European Union and we have UKIP saying we

want trade and cooperation but there is a bigger and better world out

there. You are now travelling with I think four bodyguards, has this

affected you and your family life? I can't stand it. I've always wondered

about the place and on my own thing. Sadly we have a couple of

organisations out there headed up by senior Labour Party figures who

purport to be against fascism and extremism, who received funding from

the Department of communities, from the trade unions, who have acted in

a violent wait more than once. You are saying the Labour Party is

behind the threats? No, I said a taxpayer funded, trade union funded

and headed by senior Labour Party figures, and I'm happy for them to

come to my meetings and have an itinerant with me, but it's not so

much fun when there are banging you over the head. I is still keen to be

an MP? Yes, what UKIP will then do is target before the general

election next year for the one life be easier if you just went to the

Lords? That's the last thing I want to do. There's an awful lot to do.

Most of all, I will not rest until we are free from political union and

government from Brussels. Nigel Farage, thank you for being with us.

It's just gone 11.30am. You're watching the Sunday Politics. We say

goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now for Sunday Politics

Scotland. Coming up here in 20 minutes, our panel talks about the

big stories of the week. First though,

big stories of the week. First Good morning and welcome to the part

of the show just for us here in the West. Coming up: Labour in Somerset

put out a poster comparing UKIP supporters to zombies who vote

without thinking. The political mudslinging of today all seems

rather tame compared to what went on in Victorian times. We'll dive into

Bristol's archives and find evidence that campaigning used to be far more

vicious. And talking of mudslinging, we've got two guests who will be

going at it hammer and tongs but later in the programme. They are

Sophie Gardner for Labour and, from UKIP, Jake Shaw. They're both

standing in West Country seating next year's general election. ``

West Country seats in next year's general election. But first, let's

talk nicely about the other elections that are taking place this

month` the ones to local councils. Here is Paul Barltrop. This year's

local elections in the West are small in number but big in

significance. A third of seats are up in Bristol and Labour next year

end to seize Parliamentary seats from both coalition parties. In

Stroud and Gloucester, the Conservatives are the largest group

on hung councils and have MPs with slender majorities. In nearby

Cheltenham, it's a coalition dogfight. A Lib Dem Council and Lib

Dem MP with the Tories on the attack. Finally, there's Swindon,

and that's always one to watch. The Conservatives have both Westminster

seats and run the borough. But it's very close, with Labour chasing

hard. For decades, Swindon's been a barometer for general election

success. Navigate its famous Magic Roundabout and the road to Downing

Street lies open. Its museum shows its working`class roots but also a

more middle class side. Like its renowned collection of 20th century

paintings. Art lover Eric Burnett`Godfrey says the town is

moving up in the world. Swindon has a very strong tradition of art and

culture practice. I think what Swindon needs is to step up into the

professional league and become a first division cultural town to

match the economic growth that is taking place here recently. This

socioeconomic change is a challenge for Labour. Jack Straw is one of a

procession of senior figures who visited. Voters exhibit mixed

loyalties but little enthusiasm. I don't hardly vote at all if I'm

honest. I don't hardly vote. A lot of them, they say things and they

don't always mean what they say. Why Labour? Because I hate what the

Tories have done to this country. Probably the Conservatives, still.

There's something what comes across to me from UKIP but I think, for

people my age and all, I think they will do a better job for me. UKIP

are bullish. Membership is at a high. They're leafleting hard,

standing candidates in all 20 wards. That's quite a contrast to the

Liberal Democrats, who are currently the third party in the council

chamber. For the ruling Conservatives, it isn't easy. They

prefer to highlight their party's track record locally, not

nationally. And they hope to appeal to Swindon's growing middle classes

with a new purpose`built museum. Swindon's demographic clearly has

changed over the years quite dramatically and if you have a new

art gallery, I think that speaks volumes about the town's commitment

to culture and wanting to place that at the heart of its growth and

development. So Swindon's changing, economically

and culturally. But politically, it's hard to predict.

OK, let's pick up a few issues coming out of that film. Sophie,

you're standing for another important seat in the West Country.

Do you take the point that Labour needs to appeal to aspirational

voters? Or are you happy just to appeal to core voters? No, I'm not

happy to appeal just to core voters. Clearly, if the people that voted

for us last time, next election next year, vote in the same numbers, I

won't be winning in Gloucester so that would be a bad idea. Tony Blair

famously went for Mondeo man, didn't he? I don't recall that particular

campaign. You're making me stand old now! `` you're making me sound old.

But I can promise you, it was quite famous. I think we need to talk to

lots of different people. It's people shifting their views of what

Labour's offering, what it stands for, how we actually want to change

the future for this country in terms of offering young people a better

future than the one that they're facing at the moment. With great

unemployment prospects, expensive education, punitive benefits and so

on and so forth. I just think they need something positive. Let's go to

UKIP. What would be the point of voting for UKIP in a local election?

What's it got to do with anything? Well, we've got some pretty active

local councillors where we've got them. We're running ten candidates

in Stroud, for instance, whereas the Liberal Democrats are running three.

But say there was a debate about a local car park or whether to cut the

village green. Why would you need an out of Europe guy to do that?

Because it's all about grassroots politics. It's all about getting

power back to the people where they live and that's actually

underpinning everything we've been talking about. And our councillors

do that, too. Well, that's very good if they do but the point is that

that's why you should vote for a local guy who's going to do the work

for you. We have a councillor up in Lincolnshire who actually clean the

toilets every day. So I think a local UKIP councillor ` vote for the

guy who's going to work for you. You see, the considered thinking is that

you might do well in these elections, the European elections,

but after that, the tide goes out. Well, the old Chinese proverb is "we

shall see", but I think we're going to do all right in the general

election as well. Why are you not way ahead in the polls at this

stage? I don't know. I'm not really looking at the polls. I'm measuring

it on how we are doing when we're talking with people, what people are

worried about the stop if I obsessed with all the polls and all the

figures, I'd never get any work done and, actually, what I need to be

doing is talking to people in Gloucester. And what have they told

you about why you're not ahead in the polls? I don't talk to them

about the polls. We talk about... You must say, "are you going to vote

Labour?" And they must say "no". What do you say to that? Normally

you talk about what they're planning to vote, if they're planning to

vote. Some of them are just angry. I spoke to one young guy who'd never

voted last week and he, sort of, was closing down the conversation. He

said, "you don't understand my life". And I said, what sort of

life? And he was in the Navy. And actually, we had a really good five,

ten minute conversation about some of the issues that are facing our

defence forces, which, of course, being ex`air force I could talk

about. And I was at sea for two years with the Navy. So you talk to

people and you find out what it is that concerns them. How much of a

blue would it be for UKIP if they didn't do well in the local

elections? Well, we would like to do well. How much of a blow? It would

be the same as any blow to any party that didn't do well in a local

election. But I think we're going to do well, cos we've got loads of

active people. I know in my constituency, where we haven't got

any local elections, our party's very active in local causes. They

raised a bunch of money and did a load of bag holding in the floods,

for instance. So how will we do? I think we're going to do well. Will

it be disastrous if we don't? No, because we're going forward to the

general election. OK. Thank you. Now, the gloves came off in the

election race this week. A Labour Party political broadcast was

devoted to belittling Nick Clegg and an article written by Labour in

Somerset accused UKIP followers of being zombies who'd had their brains

removed. Robert Markwell has been taking a look at the rough side of

politics. Their opponents would like you to

think they come from outer space. But if the polls are to be believed,

UKIP supporters, or Kippers, are already here en masse. This version

of a 1950s sci`fi film poster is just one of a raft of attack ads.

It's being circulated online by Labour in Somerset. They've compared

UKIP supporters to zombies, voting without thinking. I don't believe

that what we are engaging in is negative campaigning. I believe UKIP

are engaged in negative campaigning and I think the type of poster

campaign they've run, which scapegoats immigrants and so on,

terrifies other people. It is negative campaigning. What we're

doing is challenging that negative campaigning by getting people to

look at the real issues and that's what politics should be about `

looking at the real issues. Privately, some Conservatives have

told me they thought Labour went a bit too far. But the Tories, too,

have been putting out their own anti`UKIP leaflets, and in UKIP

colours. It was a point we put to the PM on his tour of the West this

week. That is saying, quite right, that you could say one thing and

then they say another. You wouldn't know that that's a Conservative

leaflet. No, you absolutely would know it's a Conservative leaflet

because it says at the bottom that it is promoted by the Conservative

party. UKIP says it happened to shrug off the brickbats but how do

these messages go down where it really matters, with the voters? ``

happy to shrug off the brickbats. We sought professional advice at the

Bristol communications agency. We have a whole load of disaffected

voters. And with that, I don't think negative campaigning works. They

will not be trusting the words coming out of the politicians that

they've already decided they don't trust. And when it comes to trust,

you might have thought we were more trusting about politicians in

centuries past. But a glance through one of the largest collections of

political leaflets in the country reveals anything but. If you thought

politicians could be pretty rough with each other today, they have

nothing on the Victorians. Take a look at this leaflet from the 1878

Bristol by`election. It's from the Liberal candidate. He says, "vote

for me and you get peace aplenty and a table filled with food". However,

should you dare vote for his Conservative rival, he claims,

"you'll end up with long hours, little pay and, in the end,

starvation". So whether it's the threat of emaciation then or

zombification now, politics has always been a mucky business. For

voters hardened to at all, they will have had enough of the scare

stories. Thanks to Bristol University for

showing us their collection. They say they're always grateful for new

material. OK, let's just talk about that. Do you think he's a braindead

zombie? No, I don't. Why has your party issued material that suggests

they might think that? I can't tell you why a councillor in a different

part of the South West has done it. It's not my style. I don't think

that... If you want to have a conversation about with people and

people are deciding how to vote and they might be thinking about voting

UKIP but they might be thinking about voting Labour, or for other

parties, if I want to start a conversation I'm not going to be

helpful if I start that conversation by insulting them. Do you think that

some people in the Labour Party don't really get UKIP and don't

respect people who think they have good ideas? I wouldn't say that. I

think... We're talking about it so it's getting attention, and I can

see that some people want to do that. Below that message ` obviously

I've read it now ` are some quite good points about the fact that UKIP

MEPs claim all their expenses but do very little work in Europe. So I can

see why people do it. It isn't my style. Do you recognise this

description of your followers as being zombies? No, absolutely not.

And I actually have to say that I was a Labour voter and I've been to

university. I run my own businesses. Being a zombie is not helpful for

running your own business. I think it's insulting. I think it's

negative campaigning and I think that it will backfire because nobody

wants to be talked to like that. If you go and tell somebody to go to

hail, if you like, they are hardly going to be predisposed to be

positive about any message you've got after that. The question people

might ask is what your policies are. We know you want out of Europe but

we don't really know much more about you. Well, as with most parties, our

general election manifesto isn't out yet. Or any policies at all. We have

quite a few policies. Before I was coming on the programme, we were

talking about railways, we were talking about cheese. We do have

issues. So you've got policies on cheese and railways? What's your

railway policy, as a matter of interest? Well, we don't support

renationalisation. We don't support HS2, because it's an EU vanity

project and it's a lot of money we could spend on upgrading the rest of

the railway, for instance. We actually believe that travellers on

the railway should have some say in franchises. We believe franchises

should be longer. OK. Is it true that, as was put out in Labour's

material, that you would cut maternity pay by more than half? No.

OK. Is it true you would hand the whole of the NHS over to private

companies? No, but the Conservative party is trying to do that right

now. OK. Well, if you ask him what his policies are, those, on that...

It's just "no, they're not." It's very difficult to pin them down.

Maybe cheese we can discuss. Yeah, when you going to come up with

something which is more than just "we want out of Europe"? Well, we're

working on it now and what are we coming up with? We've got a lot of

people who want to get back to control for the voters out there. So

we want to localise a lot of what happens. We want to reduce the size

of government, we want to reduce the amount of bureaucracy and red tape

that people have to deal within their lives and in their business.

Why is it, then, the mud doesn't seem to stick when it's thrown at

UKIP but it would if it was thrown at Labour? Labour carry some of the

blame, that's why. That's a very long... I could almost write an

essay on it. I'm not absolutely sure. I think it's because UKIP is

anti`politics. It's a negative thing and it's against things, it wants

out of things and so on. And at the moment, there's very little positive

policy. That's not true at all. I think, therefore, when you're being

an anti`politician, as Farage very much as, you are a bit more Teflon

in terms of... Do you think it has backfired, all this negative

fruitcake stuff? I think it's giving UKIP additional publicity that they

would have... Why don't you stop doing it, then? I'm not doing it. I

didn't say I was. Your party is doing it. I did not say I was. It's

talking down to people. It's being rude to people. I'm very sorry but

that's not... Jake, I'm the candidate for Gloucester. All I

control is the campaign for Gloucester. That is what I am doing.

You look at my literature ` unlike the candidate, the UKIP candidate,

recently selected, who got negative about me straightaway, I'm not doing

that. David Miliband was doing exactly the same thing the other

day, saying that we were... I don't control David Miliband, you will be

amazed to hear. Do we mean Ed? I've been called a racist, I've been

called homophobic, I've been called sexist. I'm none of these things. I

had to ring up a gay friend the other day and said, "I just want to

check ` am I homophobic?" He said, "not in 20 years". So actually,

negative campaigning is what we get. On the street, we don't get that.

OK. Now, we've asked all the parties running in the European elections to

pitch for your vote. Last week we heard from four. Here are the

remaining four in no particular order.

The Conservatives have a good record on Europe. We've cut the EU budget

for the first time ever. David Cameron vetoed a treaty that wasn't

our interests and we're now out of the EU bailout fund. Now we want to

reform Europe for good. We want to take powers back from Brussels to

Britain. We want to renegotiate the terms of our membership. When the

deal is done, we're going to put that to the British people so you

can decide whether we stay or leave in a referendum.

Well, of course, the real debate in this election is about whether we

are in the European Union or out. My party, the Liberal Democrats, is the

party of in. In because being in Europe means being in work. Having

all of the foreign investment that sustains so many jobs in export

industries. Some 365,000 here in the South West. Being in Europe because

being in means our police forces and our judiciary is working together to

tackle international crime and being in Europe to fight climate change,

together with other countries. We should like to stop mass

immigration. We want to turn off the immigration tap, reverse the

multicultural societies, withdraw from the EU. Reintroduce Christian

values into this country. Deport illegal immigrant is an bogus asylum

seekers. `` illegal image and tos and Bochum asylum seekers. ``

illegal immigrants. And finally, and perhaps also very important, we want

to support UK manufacturing. Once we were the workshop of the world. We

want to be so again and we think we could if we favoured our own in this

country. The English Democrats are the only party representing England

and the English. The huge debts incurred prior to 2008 by a small

group of Scottish bankers based in Edinburgh are being paid for by the

English. We want equal treatment for the people of England, no less than

for those in Scotland and Wales. Voters in England cannot rely upon

the other parties to put their interests first. They seem

preoccupied with minorities. The English Democrats are the only party

to guarantee to put England first. That was the final four. We did the

previous four last week, so everyone is covered fair and square, and you

can find a full list of all the candidates on the BBC website. Now

here's a brief recap of the political week in 60 seconds.

On Thursday, the Prime Minister ventured west on his campaign trail.

David Cameron rallied Conservative activists in Chippenham, Waterman to

read and Bristol and urged disaffected Tories to come back from

UKIP. Hi there, good to see you. Thanks for coming out in the rain.

His government defended its contract to build a new nuclear power

station, Hinkley Point, despite claims it could be null and void. A

group of law and economic so experts have warned the deal may have been

too generous to the firm EDF Energy. West Country producers of cheddar

are feeling cheesed off. China has banned the cheese after its food

inspectors complained about hygiene standards at a British dairy. The

farming minister called for the restrictions to be lifted as soon as

possible. There was a final twist in the tale of Bristol's disputed

Banksy. The city's mayor had recaptured the work from the local

boys' club but the artist confirmed that the club was the rightful

owner. Let's go back to the story about

cheese and the Chinese banning cheddar. If we were out of the EU,

wouldn't we be very vulnerable to countries doing things by that? No

because it's an issue for the World Trade Organisation. One of the

issues about the EU is that the EU is negotiating a trade deal which

means we are going to be flooded. It wouldn't be a problem. The

collective action that Europe can have together, and the trade

agreement we have, is really important. I would say also, I know

it's about cheese but it is about the use of soft power in China and,

again, you can see where Putin is heading if you read what he's been

saying recently. I think that collective action with Europe is

really important closer to home. That's all we've got time for this

week. It would be nice to go on. But thanks to Sophie and Jake for coming

in. If you want to see this part of the show again ` and

Welcome back, let's go straight to our panel. What did you make of Mr

Alexander's defence of the Labour party election broadcast? It is

difficult for them because they started by saying they were not

going to do negative campaigning and they have thrown that away for an

advert which is funny but crude in the class war sense. He didn't look

thrilled to be defending it. There is a page in Tony Blair's memoirs

talking about negative campaigning, and he says that anything too

extreme turns off the average voter so his line of attack on Hague was

funny jokes but... I think this failed the Blair test, it was too

vicious. If your strategy is to shore up your car vote, that advert

was genius. If your strategy is to reach out to a broader number of

voters, Middle Britain, then that advert was a complete disaster. It

looks like there is a lot of negativity and smears all round in

the next year. That definitely looks the way we are going. They will be

essentially trying to re-run by -- the American election. I am slightly

puzzled why we cannot have our own election gurus who live here and

understand the country. I should point out that the ?450 extra VAT

that was claimed in that Labour poster, both Ed Balls and the Labour

Treasury team have said that is ?450 per year. Nonsense the VAT rise, one

year. I should also point out that Nigel Farage said to Norman Smith,

the BBC is always reliable Norman Smith that if you run in Newark and

lost the bubble would burst. I should also point out that although

a number of the tax rises I mentioned on council tax, minimum

wage tax and some other things that UKIP wants to cuts, a couple of

these are in the local manifesto but several are not. They are on the

UKIP website, which is still current and dated 2014. We like to make sure

we are absolutely right. Let's talk about Nick Clegg and Michael Gove

and the latest spat. Let me show you this headline in the Observer this

morning. From both the Independent, he called him a zealot, lunatic is

of -- another word. Do we take this seriously? It hinges on this

question of what counts as an area of need in education. The Lib Dems

say an area of need is one where there are not enough school places

to meet local demand. He says it can also be a place where there are

surplus places but that is for a reason. Local places don't trust

those schools to do a good job for their kids. It surprises me because

there isn't a yawning distance between David Laws and Michael Gove.

David Laws has found himself between a rock and a hard place because I

asked -- as I understand it most Lib Dems don't like the free schools but

Mr laws was quite sympathetic to it and he is now having to this respect

it. When they asked people who are the most hated politicians in a poll

were this week, Michael Gove is off the charts, far above David Cameron

or George Osborne. This is tit-for-tat war. The Liberal

Democrats believe Michael Gove had a hand in leaking the document that

showed Nick Clegg was opposing the tougher Chris Grayling position on

knife crime. They are saying there were Cabinet ministers who never

usually attend the sub Cabinet meeting, they turned up and the

document is leaked so what we are getting is tit for tat on that. It

is inevitable but it is not good for either side of the Coalition. Voters

will look at it and say it is politics of the playground. I read

in the Mail on Sunday this morning that some Tory insiders are accusing

Lib Dems of spreading rumours about the camera in marriage. The

rebuttals of education story is that the free school meals is sucking

money away. I always thought they would work together without fuss and

yet it has been more the source of disagreement then I would have

expected a couple of years ago. Is it serious? It is serious obviously,

using that language, but is it fatal for the Coalition? I think it is a

road bump because I don't think anybody wants to dissolve the

Coalition. It is a challenge for Labour because where do they stand

on the free schools? They invented the Academy programme so it is

difficult for them to take a hands-off approach at this stage.

There was a danger for Michael Gove that he looks ideological but the

danger for the Liberal Democrats is that they are breaking the rules for

the Coalition they said that they wouldn't break which is that they

looked like opposition in government. Is Michael Gove's

position safe? Very safe. If he moves in a reshuffle that will be to

a a job. That's all for today. The Daily Politics will be back on BBC

Two at lunchtime from Tuesday onwards. I'll be back here on BBC

One at 11am next week. Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday

Politics. What if the person

that killed her... I found out she'd been taking drugs.

Just let me explain. You wasn't at that party all night.

Yeah, I was. What was she even doing there?

Oi, you keep your mouth shut. She was exchanging a significant

number of texts and calls with someone in the weeks

leading up to her death. It's like we didn't

really know her at all.