15/01/2017 Sunday Politics West


15/01/2017

Andrew Neil and David Garmston with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Guests include Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron MP, Max Mosley and Piers Morgan.


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Transcript


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It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

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Is the Prime Minister prepared to end Britain's membership

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of the EU's single market and its customs union?

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We preview Theresa May's big speech, as she seeks to unite the country

:00:44.:00:46.

Is the press a force for good or a beast that needs taming?

:00:47.:00:53.

As the Government ponders its decision, we speak to one

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of those leading the campaign for greater regulation.

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Just what kind of President will Donald Trump be?

:01:01.:01:06.

Censorship all sensible? well, joins us live.

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And to help me make sense of all that, three of the finest

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hacks we could persuade to work on a Sunday - Steve Richards,

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They'll be tweeting throughout the programme, and you can join

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So, Theresa May is preparing for her big Brexit speech on Tuesday,

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in which she will urge people to give up on "insults"

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and "division" and unite to build, quote, a "global Britain".

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Some of the Sunday papers report that the Prime Minister will go

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The Sunday Telegraph splashes with the headline: "May's big

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gamble on a clean Brexit", saying the Prime Minister

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will announce she's prepared to take Britain out of membership

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of the single market and customs union.

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The Sunday Times has a similar write-up -

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they call it a "clean and hard Brexit".

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The Brexit Secretary David Davis has also written a piece in the paper

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hinting that a transitional deal could be on the cards.

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And the Sunday Express says: "May's Brexit Battle Plan",

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explaining that the Prime Minister will get tough with Brussels

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and call for an end to free movement.

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Well, let's get some more reaction on this.

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I'm joined now from Cumbria by the leader

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of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.

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Mr Farron, welcome back to the programme. The Prime Minister says

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most people now just want to get on with it and make a success of it.

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But you still want to stop it, don't you? Well, I certainly take the view

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that heading for a hard Brexit, essentially that means being outside

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the Single Market and the customs union, is not something that was on

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the ballot paper last June. For Theresa May to adopt what is

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basically the large all Farage vision of Britain's relationship

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with Europe is not what was voted for last June. It is right for us to

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stand up and say that a hard Brexit is not the democratic choice of the

:03:20.:03:23.

British people, and that we should be fighting for the people to be the

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ones who have the Seat the end of this process, not have it forced

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upon them by Theresa May and David Davis. When it comes though dual

:03:32.:03:35.

position that we should remain in the membership of the Single Market

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and the customs union, it looks like you are losing the argument, doesn't

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it? My sense is that if you believe in being in the Single Market and

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the customs union are good things, I think many people on the leave site

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believe that, Stephen Phillips, the Conservative MP until the autumn who

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resigned, who voted for Leave but believe we should be in the Single

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Market, I think those people believe that it is wrong for us to enter the

:04:02.:04:06.

negotiations having given up on the most important part of it. If you

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really are going to fight Britain's corner, then you should go in there

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fighting the membership of the Single Market, not give up and

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whitefly, as Theresa May has done before we even start. -- and wave

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the white flag. Will you vote against regret Article 50 in the

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Commons? We made it clear that we want the British people to have the

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final Seat -- vote against triggering. Will you vote against

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Article 50. Will you encourage the House of Lords to vote against out

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Article 50? I don't think they will get a chance to vote. They will have

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a chance to win the deuce amendments. One amendment we will

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introduce is that there should be a referendum in the terms of the deal.

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It is not right that Parliament on Government, and especially not civil

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servants in Brussels and Whitehall, they should stitch-up the final

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deal. That would be wrong. It is right that the British people have

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the final say. I understand that as your position. You made it clear

:05:05.:05:11.

Britain to remain a member of the Single Market on the customs union.

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You accept, I assume, that that would mean remaining under the

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jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, continuing free movement

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of people, and the free-trade deals remained in Brussels' competence. So

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it seems to me that if you believe that being in the Single Market is a

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good thing, then you should go and argue for that. Whilst I believe

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that we're not going to get a better deal than the one we currently have,

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nevertheless it is up to the Government to go and argue for the

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best deal possible for us outside. You accept your position would mean

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that? It would mean certainly being in the Single Market and the customs

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union. It's no surprise to you I'm sure that the Lib Dems believe the

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package we have got now inside the EU is going to be of the Nutley

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better than anything we get from the outside, I accept the direction of

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travel -- is going to be the Nutley better. At the moment, what the

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Government are doing is assuming that all the things you say Drew,

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and there is no way possible for us arguing for a deal that allows in

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the Single Market without some of those other things. If they really

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believed in the best for Britain, you would go and argue for the best

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for Britain. Let's be clear, if we remain under the jurisdiction of the

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ECJ, which is the court that governs membership of the Single Market,

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continued free movement of people, the Europeans have made clear, is

:06:30.:06:34.

what goes with the Single Market. And free-trade deals remaining under

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Brussels' competence. If we accepted all of that is the price of

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membership of the Single Market, in what conceivable way with that

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amount to leaving the European Union? Well, for example, I do

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believe that being a member of the Single Market is worth fighting for.

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I personally believe that freedom of movement is a good thing. British

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people benefit from freedom of movement. We will hugely be hit as

:06:59.:07:02.

individuals and families and businesses. Mike I understand, but

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your writing of leaving... There the butt is that if you do except that

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freedom of movement has to change, I don't, but if you do, and if you are

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Theresa May, and the problem is to go and fight for the best deal,

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don't take it from Brussels that you can't be in the Single Market

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without those other things as well, you don't go and argue the case. It

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depresses me that Theresa May is beginning this process is waving the

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white flag, just as this morning Jeremy Corbyn was waving the white

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flag when it comes to it. We need a Government that will fight Britain's

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corner and an opposition that will fight the Government to make sure

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that it fights. Just explain to our viewers how we could remain members,

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members of the Single Market, and not be subject to the jurisdiction

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of the European court? So, first of all we spent over the last many,

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many years, the likes of Nigel Farage and others, will have argued,

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you heard them on this very programme, that Britain should

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aspire to be like Norway and Switzerland for example, countries

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that are not in the European Union but aren't the Single Market. It is

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very clear to me that if you want the best deal for Britain -- but are

:08:15.:08:18.

in the Single Market. You go and argue for the best deal. What is the

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answer to my question, you haven't answered it

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the question is, how does the Prime Minister go and fight for the best

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deal for Britain. If we think that being in the Single Market is the

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right thing, not Baxter -- not access to it but membership of it,

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you don't wave the white flag before you enter the negotiating room. I'm

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afraid we have run out of time. Thank you, Tim Farron.

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The leaks on this speech on Tuesday we have seen, it is interesting that

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Downing Street has not attempted to dampen them down this morning, in

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the various papers, do they tell us something new? Do they tell us more

:09:04.:09:08.

of the Goverment's aims in the Brexit negotiations? I think it's

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only a confirmation of something which has been in the mating really

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for the six months that she's been in the job. The logic of everything

:09:15.:09:21.

that she's said since last July, the keenness on re-gaining control of

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migration, the desire to do international trade deals, the fact

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that she is appointed trade Secretary, the logic of all of that

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is that we are out of the Single Market, quite probably out of the

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customs union, what will happen this week is a restatement of a fairly

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clear position anyway. I think Tim Farron is right about one thing, I

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don't think she will go into the speech planning to absolutely

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definitively say, we are leaving those things. Because even if there

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is a 1% chance of a miracle deal, where you stay in the Single Market,

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somehow get exempted from free movement, it is prudent to keep

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hopes on that option as a Prime Minister. -- to keep open that

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option. She is being advised both by the diplomatic corps and her

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personal advisers, don't concede on membership of the Single Market yet.

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We know it's not going to happen, but let them Europeans knock us back

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on that,... That is probably the right strategy for all of the

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reasons that Jarlan outlined there. What we learned a bit today is the

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possibility of some kind of transition or arrangements, which

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David Davies has been talking about in a comment piece for one of the

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Sunday papers. My sense from Brexiteers aborting MPs is that they

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are very happy with 90% of the rhetoric -- Brexit sporting MPs. The

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rhetoric has not been dampened down by MPs, apart from this transitional

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arrangement, which they feel and two France, on the one front will

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encourage the very dilatory EU to spend longer than ever negotiating a

:10:54.:10:57.

deal, and on the other hand will also be exactly what our civil

:10:58.:11:00.

service looks for in stringing things out. What wasn't explained

:11:01.:11:05.

this morning is what David Davies means by transitional is not that

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you negotiate what you can in two years and then spend another five

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years on the matter is that a lot of the soul. He thinks everything has

:11:13.:11:17.

to be done in the two years, -- of the matter are hard to solve. But it

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would include transitional arrangements over the five years.

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What we are seeing in the build-up is the danger of making these kind

:11:27.:11:31.

of speeches. In a way, I kind of admired her not feeding the media

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machine over the autumn and the end of last year cars, as Janan has

:11:35.:11:40.

pointed out in his columns, she has actually said quite a lot from it,

:11:41.:11:44.

you would extrapolate quite a lot. We won't be members of the Single

:11:45.:11:48.

Market? She said that in the party conference speech, we are out of

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European court. Her red line is the end of free movement, so we are out

:11:55.:11:59.

of the Single Market. Why has she sent Liam Fox to negotiate all of

:12:00.:12:03.

these other deals, not that he will succeed necessarily, but that is the

:12:04.:12:07.

intention? We are still in the customs union. You can extrapolate

:12:08.:12:10.

what she will say perhaps more cautiously in the headlines on

:12:11.:12:15.

Tuesday. But the grammar of a big speech raises expectations, gets the

:12:16.:12:18.

markets worked up. So she is doing it because people have said that she

:12:19.:12:21.

doesn't know what she's on about. But maybe she should have resisted

:12:22.:12:26.

it. Very well, and she hasn't. The speech is on Tuesday morning.

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Now, the public consultation on press regulation closed this

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week, and soon ministers will have to decide whether to

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enact a controversial piece of legislation.

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Section 40 of the Crime and Courts Act, if implemented,

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could see newspapers forced to pay legal costs in libel and privacy

:12:39.:12:40.

If they don't sign up to an officially approved regulator.

:12:41.:12:51.

The newspapers say it's an affront to a free press,

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while pro-privacy campaigners say it's the only way to ensure

:12:54.:12:55.

a scandal like phone-hacking can't happen again.

:12:56.:12:57.

Ellie Price has been reading all about it.

:12:58.:13:03.

It was the biggest news about the news for decades,

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a scandal that involved household names, but not just celebrities.

:13:08.:13:12.

They've even hacked the phone of a murdered schoolgirl.

:13:13.:13:15.

It led to the closure of the News Of The World,

:13:16.:13:17.

a year-long public inquiry headed up by the judge Lord Justice Leveson,

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and in the end, a new press watchdog set up by Royal Charter,

:13:28.:13:30.

which could impose, among other things, million-pound fines.

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If this system is implemented, the country should have confidence

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that the terrible suffering of innocent victims

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like the Dowlers, the McCanns and Christopher Jefferies should

:13:37.:13:38.

To get this new plan rolling, the Government also passed

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the Crime and Courts Act, Section 40 of which would force

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publications who didn't sign up to the new regulator to pay legal

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costs in libel and privacy cases, even if they won.

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It's waiting for sign-off from the Culture Secretary.

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We've got about 50 publications that have signed up...

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This is Impress, the press regulator that's got the backing

:14:04.:14:05.

of the Royal Charter, so its members are protected

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from the penalties that would be imposed by Section 40.

:14:12.:14:14.

It's funded by the Formula One tycoon Max Mosley's

:14:15.:14:19.

I think the danger if we don't get Section 40 is that

:14:20.:14:25.

you have an incomplete Leveson project.

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I think it's very, very likely that within the next five or ten years

:14:28.:14:30.

there will be a scandal, there'll be a crisis in press

:14:31.:14:33.

standards, everyone will be saying to the Government,

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"Why on Earth didn't you sort things out when you had the chance?"

:14:36.:14:38.

Isn't Section 40 essentially just a big stick to beat

:14:39.:14:40.

We hear a lot about the stick part, but there's also a big juicy carrot

:14:41.:14:48.

for publishers and their journalists who are members of an

:14:49.:14:51.

They get huge new protections from libel threats,

:14:52.:14:54.

from privacy actions, which actually means they've got

:14:55.:14:56.

a lot more opportunity to run investigative stories.

:14:57.:15:05.

Impress has a big image problem - not a single national

:15:06.:15:07.

Instead, many of them are members of Ipso,

:15:08.:15:12.

the independent regulator set up and funded by the industry that

:15:13.:15:15.

doesn't seek the recognition of the Royal Charter.

:15:16.:15:21.

The male cells around 22,000 each day...

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There are regional titles too, who, like the Birmingham Mail,

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won't sign up to Impress, even if they say the costs

:15:28.:15:30.

are associated with Section 40 could put them out of business.

:15:31.:15:34.

Impress has an umbilical cord that goes directly back to Government

:15:35.:15:36.

through the recognition setup that it has.

:15:37.:15:38.

Now, we broke free of the shackles of the regulated press

:15:39.:15:41.

when the stamp duty was revealed 150 years ago.

:15:42.:15:44.

If we go back to this level of oversight, then I think

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we turn the clock back, 150 years of press freedom.

:15:52.:15:56.

The responses from the public have been coming thick and fast

:15:57.:15:58.

since the Government launched its consultation

:15:59.:16:00.

In fact, by the time it closed on Tuesday,

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And for that reason alone, it could take months before

:16:04.:16:07.

a decision on what happens next is taken.

:16:08.:16:12.

The Government will also be minded to listen to its own MPs,

:16:13.:16:15.

One described it to me as Draconian and hugely damaging.

:16:16.:16:21.

So, will the current Culture Secretary's thinking be

:16:22.:16:23.

I don't think the Government will repeal section 40.

:16:24.:16:31.

What I'm arguing for is not to implement it, but it will remain

:16:32.:16:35.

on the statute book and if it then became apparent that Ipso simply

:16:36.:16:39.

was failing to work, was not delivering effective

:16:40.:16:42.

regulation and the press were behaving in a way

:16:43.:16:46.

which was wholly unacceptable, as they were ten years ago,

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then there might be an argument at that time to think well in that

:16:52.:16:54.

case we are going to have to take further measures,

:16:55.:16:57.

The future of section 40 might not be so black and white.

:16:58.:17:02.

I'm told a compromise could be met whereby the punitive parts

:17:03.:17:05.

about legal costs are dropped, but the incentives

:17:06.:17:09.

to join a recognised regulator are beefed up.

:17:10.:17:12.

But it could yet be some time until the issue of press freedom

:17:13.:17:14.

I'm joined now by Max Mosley - he won a legal case against the News

:17:15.:17:25.

Of The World after it revealed details about his private life,

:17:26.:17:28.

and he now campaigns for more press regulation.

:17:29.:17:32.

Are welcome to the programme. Let me ask you this, how can it be right

:17:33.:17:40.

that you, who many folk think have a clear vendetta against the British

:17:41.:17:45.

press, can bankroll a government approved regulator of the press? If

:17:46.:17:49.

we hadn't done it, nobody would, section 40 would never have come

:17:50.:17:54.

into force because there would never have been a regulator. It is

:17:55.:17:58.

absolutely wrong that a family trust should have to finance something

:17:59.:18:03.

like this. It should be financed by the press or the Government. If we

:18:04.:18:08.

hadn't done it there would be no possibility of regulation. But it

:18:09.:18:09.

means we end up with a regulator financed by you, as I say

:18:10.:18:36.

many people think you have a clear vendetta against the press. Where

:18:37.:18:39.

does the money come from? From a family trust, it is family money.

:18:40.:18:41.

You have to understand that somebody had to do this. I understand that.

:18:42.:18:44.

People like to know where the money comes from, I think you said it came

:18:45.:18:47.

from Brixton Steyn at one stage. Ages ago my father had a trust there

:18:48.:18:50.

but now all my money is in the UK. We are clear about that, but this is

:18:51.:18:53.

money that was put together by your father. Yes, my father inherited it

:18:54.:19:00.

from his father and his father. The whole of Manchester once belonged to

:19:01.:19:03.

the family, that's why there is a Mosley Street. That is irrelevant

:19:04.:19:08.

because as we have given the money, I have no control. If you do the

:19:09.:19:12.

most elementary checks into the contract between my family trust,

:19:13.:19:22.

the trust but finances Impress, it is impossible for me to exert any

:19:23.:19:26.

influence. It is just the same as if it had come from the National

:19:27.:19:33.

lottery. People will find it ironic that the money has come from

:19:34.:19:37.

historically Britain's best-known fascist. No, it has come from my

:19:38.:19:46.

family, the Mosley family. This is complete drivel because we have no

:19:47.:19:51.

control. Where the money comes from doesn't matter, if it had come from

:19:52.:19:56.

the national lottery it would be exactly the same. Impress was

:19:57.:20:00.

completely independent. But it wouldn't exist without your money,

:20:01.:20:06.

wouldn't it? But that doesn't give you influence. It might exist

:20:07.:20:09.

because it was founded before I was ever in contact with them. Isn't it

:20:10.:20:15.

curious then that so many leading light show your hostile views of the

:20:16.:20:20.

press? I don't think it is because I don't know a single member of the

:20:21.:20:26.

Impress board. The chairman I have met months. The only person I know

:20:27.:20:30.

is Jonathan Hayward who you had on just now. In one recent months he

:20:31.:20:38.

tweeted 50 attacks on the Daily Mail, including some calling for an

:20:39.:20:44.

advertising boycott of the paper. He also liked a Twitter post calling me

:20:45.:20:50.

Daily Mail and neofascist rag. Are these fitting for what is meant to

:20:51.:20:55.

be impartial regulator? The person you should ask about that is the

:20:56.:20:59.

press regulatory panel and they are completely independent, they

:21:00.:21:03.

reviewed the whole thing. You have probably produced something very

:21:04.:21:07.

selective, I have no idea but I am certain that these people are

:21:08.:21:10.

absolutely trustworthy and independent. It is not just Mr

:21:11.:21:15.

Hayward, we have a tonne of things he has tweeted calling for boycotts,

:21:16.:21:19.

remember this is the man that would be the regulator of these papers.

:21:20.:21:25.

He's the chief executive, that is a separate thing. The administration,

:21:26.:21:31.

the regulator. Many leading light show your vendetta of the press. I

:21:32.:21:40.

do not have a vendetta. Let's take another one. This person is on the

:21:41.:21:56.

code committee. Have a look at this. As someone with these views fit to

:21:57.:22:03.

be involved in the regulation of the press? You said I have a vendetta

:22:04.:22:07.

against the press, I do not, I didn't say that and it is completely

:22:08.:22:12.

wrong to say I have a vendetta. What do you think of that? I don't agree,

:22:13.:22:17.

I wouldn't ban the Daily Mail, I think it's a dreadful paper but I

:22:18.:22:28.

wouldn't ban it. Another Impress code committee said I hate the Daily

:22:29.:22:36.

Mail, I couldn't agree more, others have called for a boycott. Other

:22:37.:22:40.

people can say what they want and many people may think they are right

:22:41.:22:45.

but surely these views make them unfit to be partial regulators? I

:22:46.:22:51.

have no influence over Impress therefore I cannot say anything

:22:52.:22:55.

about it. You should ask them, not me. All I have done is make it

:22:56.:23:01.

possible for Impress to exist and that was the right thing to do. I'm

:23:02.:23:07.

asking you if people with these kind of views are fit to be regulators of

:23:08.:23:12.

the press. You would have to ask about all of their views, these are

:23:13.:23:18.

some of their views. A lot of people have a downer on the Daily Mail and

:23:19.:23:24.

the Sun, it doesn't necessarily make them party pre-. Why would

:23:25.:23:29.

newspapers sign up to a regulator run by what they think is run by

:23:30.:23:35.

enemies out to ruin them. If they don't like it they should start

:23:36.:23:39.

their own section 40 regulator. They could make it so recognised, if only

:23:40.:23:45.

they would make it independent of the big newspaper barons but they

:23:46.:23:55.

won't -- they could make Ipso recognised. Is the Daily Mail

:23:56.:24:05.

fascist? It certainly was in the 1930s. Me and my father are

:24:06.:24:09.

relevant, this whole section 40 issue is about access to justice.

:24:10.:24:14.

The press don't want ordinary people who cannot afford to bring an action

:24:15.:24:18.

against the press, don't want them to have access to justice. I can

:24:19.:24:22.

understand that but I don't sympathise. What would happen to the

:24:23.:24:28.

boss of Ofcom, which regulates broadcasters, if it described

:24:29.:24:34.

Channel 4 News is a Marxist scum? If the press don't want to sign up to

:24:35.:24:44.

Impress they can create their own regulator. If you were to listen we

:24:45.:24:53.

would get a lot further. The press should make their own Levenson

:24:54.:24:57.

compliant regulator, then they would have no complaints at all. Even

:24:58.:25:03.

papers like the Guardian, the Independent, the Financial Times,

:25:04.:25:07.

they show your hostility to tabloid journalism. They have refused to be

:25:08.:25:14.

regulated by Impress. I will say it again, the press could start their

:25:15.:25:18.

own regulator, they do not have to sign... Yes, but Levenson compliant

:25:19.:25:23.

one giving access to justice so people who cannot afford an

:25:24.:25:28.

expensive legal action have a proper arbitration service. The Guardian,

:25:29.:25:31.

the Independent, the Financial Times, they don't want to do that

:25:32.:25:36.

either. That would suggest there is something fatally flawed about your

:25:37.:25:41.

approach. Even these kind of papers, the Guardian, Impress is hardly

:25:42.:25:53.

independent, the head of... Andrew, I am sorry, you are like a dog with

:25:54.:26:01.

a bone. The press could start their own regulator, then people like the

:26:02.:26:06.

Financial Times, the Guardian and so one could decide whether they wanted

:26:07.:26:09.

to join or not but what is absolutely vital is that we should

:26:10.:26:13.

have a proper arbitration service so that people who cannot afford an

:26:14.:26:16.

expensive action have somewhere to go. This business of section 40

:26:17.:26:21.

which you want to be triggered which would mean papers that didn't sign

:26:22.:26:26.

up to Impress could be sued in any case and they would have to pay

:26:27.:26:30.

potentially massive legal costs, even if they win. Yes. This is what

:26:31.:26:38.

the number of papers have said about this, if section 40 was triggered,

:26:39.:26:44.

the Guardian wouldn't even think of investigation. The Sunday Times said

:26:45.:26:51.

it would not have even started to expose Lance Armstrong. The Times

:26:52.:26:54.

journalist said he couldn't have done the Rotherham child abuse

:26:55.:26:59.

scandal. What they all come it is a full reading of section 40 because

:27:00.:27:03.

that cost shifting will only apply if, and I quote, it is just and

:27:04.:27:09.

equitable in all the circumstances. I cannot conceive of any High Court

:27:10.:27:13.

judge, for example the Lance Armstrong case or the child abuse,

:27:14.:27:19.

saying it is just as equitable in all circumstances the newspaper

:27:20.:27:24.

should pay these costs. Even the editor of index on censorship, which

:27:25.:27:29.

is hardly the Sun, said this would be oppressive and they couldn't do

:27:30.:27:33.

what they do, they would risk being sued by warlords. No because if

:27:34.:27:40.

something unfortunate, some really bad person sues them, what would

:27:41.:27:44.

happen is the judge would say it is just inequitable normal

:27:45.:27:48.

circumstances that person should pay. Section 40 is for the person

:27:49.:27:52.

that comes along and says to a big newspaper, can we go to arbitration

:27:53.:27:56.

because I cannot afford to go to court. The big newspaper says no.

:27:57.:28:01.

That leaves less than 1% of the population with any remedy if the

:28:02.:28:05.

newspapers traduce them. It cannot be right. From the Guardian to the

:28:06.:28:12.

Sun, and including Index On Censorship, all of these media

:28:13.:28:17.

outlets think you are proposing a charter for conmen, warlords, crime

:28:18.:28:20.

bosses, dodgy politicians, celebrities with a grievance against

:28:21.:28:25.

the press. I will give you the final word to address that. It is pure

:28:26.:28:34.

guff and the reason is they want to go on marking their own homework.

:28:35.:28:38.

The press don't want anyone to make sure life is fair. All I want is

:28:39.:28:42.

somebody who has got no money to be able to sue in just the way that I

:28:43.:28:47.

can. All right, thanks for being with us.

:28:48.:28:51.

The doctors' union, the British Medical Association,

:28:52.:28:52.

has said the Government is scapegoating GPs in England

:28:53.:28:54.

The Government has said GP surgeries must try harder to stay

:28:55.:28:58.

open from 8am to 8pm, or they could lose out on funding.

:28:59.:29:01.

The pressure on A services in recent weeks has been intense.

:29:02.:29:04.

It emerged this week that 65 of the 152 Health Trusts in England

:29:05.:29:07.

had issued an operational pressure alert in the first

:29:08.:29:09.

At either level three, meaning major pressures,

:29:10.:29:16.

or level four, indicating an inability to deliver

:29:17.:29:18.

On Monday, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt told the Commons

:29:19.:29:23.

that the number of people using A had increased by 9 million

:29:24.:29:27.

But that 30% of those visits were unnecessary.

:29:28.:29:35.

He said that the situation at a number of Trusts

:29:36.:29:37.

On Tuesday, the Royal College of Physicians wrote

:29:38.:29:42.

to the Prime Minister saying the health service was being

:29:43.:29:44.

paralysed by spiralling demand, and urging greater investment.

:29:45.:29:50.

On Wednesday, the Chief Executive of NHS England, Simon Stevens,

:29:51.:29:53.

told a Select Committee that NHS funding will be highly constrained.

:29:54.:29:59.

And from 2018, real-terms spending per person would fall.

:30:00.:30:03.

The Prime Minister described the Red Cross's claim that A

:30:04.:30:07.

was facing a "humanitarian crisis" as "irresponsible and overblown".

:30:08.:30:11.

And the National Audit Office issued a report that found almost half,

:30:12.:30:14.

46%, of GP surgeries closed at some point during core hours.

:30:15.:30:21.

Yesterday, Mrs May signalled her support for doctors' surgeries

:30:22.:30:25.

opening from 8am to 8pm every day of the week, in order to divert

:30:26.:30:28.

To discuss this, I'm joined now by the Conservative

:30:29.:30:35.

MP Maria Caulfield - she was an NHS nurse in a former

:30:36.:30:38.

life - and Clare Gerada, a former chair of the Royal College

:30:39.:30:41.

Welcome to you both. So, Maria Caulfield, what the Government is

:30:42.:30:51.

saying, Downing Street in effect is saying that GPs do not work hard

:30:52.:30:56.

enough and that's the reason why A was under such pressure? No, I don't

:30:57.:30:59.

think that is the message, I think that is the message that the media

:31:00.:31:02.

have taken up. That is not the expression that we want to give. I

:31:03.:31:07.

still work as a nurse, I know how hard doctors work in hospitals and

:31:08.:31:12.

GP practices. When the rose 30% of people turning up at A for neither

:31:13.:31:17.

an accident or an emergency, we do need to look at alternative. Where

:31:18.:31:22.

is the GPs' operability in this? We know from patients that if they

:31:23.:31:25.

cannot get access to GPs, they will do one of three things. They will

:31:26.:31:29.

wait two or three weeks until they can get an appointment, they will

:31:30.:31:32.

forget about the problem altogether, which is not good, we want patients

:31:33.:31:36.

to be getting investigations at early stages, or they will go to

:31:37.:31:46.

A And that is a problem. I'm not quite sure what the role that GPs

:31:47.:31:49.

play in this. What is your response in that? I think about 70% of

:31:50.:31:51.

patients that I see should not be seen by me but should still be seen

:31:52.:31:54.

by hospital consultants. If we look at it from GPs' eyes and not from

:31:55.:31:59.

hospital's eyes, because that is what it is, we might get somewhere.

:32:00.:32:03.

Tomorrow morning, every practice in England will have about 1.5 GPs

:32:04.:32:08.

shot, that's not even counting if there is traffic problems, sickness

:32:09.:32:13.

or whatever. -- GPs shot. We cannot work any harder, I cannot

:32:14.:32:16.

physically, emotionally work any harder. We are open 12 hours a day,

:32:17.:32:24.

most of us, I run practices open 365 days per year 24 hours a day. I

:32:25.:32:28.

don't understand this. It is one thing attacking me as a GP from

:32:29.:32:31.

working hard enough, but it is another thing saying that GPs as a

:32:32.:32:35.

profession and doing what they should be doing. Let me in National

:32:36.:32:40.

Audit Office has coming up with these figures showing that almost

:32:41.:32:48.

half of doctors' practices are not open during core hours at some part

:32:49.:32:51.

of the week. That's where the implication comes, that they are not

:32:52.:32:55.

working hard enough. What do you say to that? I don't recognise this. I'm

:32:56.:33:00.

not being defensive, I'm just don't recognise it. There are practices

:33:01.:33:04.

working palliative care services, practices have to close home visits

:33:05.:33:07.

if they are single-handed, some of us are working in care homes during

:33:08.:33:11.

the day. They may shot for an hour in the middle of the data will sort

:33:12.:33:17.

out some of the prescriptions and admin -- they may shot. My practice

:33:18.:33:20.

runs a number of practices across London. If we shut during our

:33:21.:33:23.

contractual hours we would have NHS England coming down on us like a

:33:24.:33:28.

tonne of bricks. Maria Caulfield, I'm struggling to understand, given

:33:29.:33:32.

the problems the NHS faces, particularly in our hospitals, what

:33:33.:33:35.

this has got to do with the solution? Obviously there are GP

:33:36.:33:39.

practices that are working, you know, over and above the hours. But

:33:40.:33:44.

there are some GP practices, we know from National Audit Office, there

:33:45.:33:49.

are particular black sports -- blackspots in the country that only

:33:50.:33:52.

offer services for three hours a week. That's causing problems if

:33:53.:33:56.

they cannot get to see a GP they will go and use A Nobody is

:33:57.:34:01.

saying that this measure would solve problems at A, it would address

:34:02.:34:04.

one small part of its top blog we shouldn't be starting this, as I

:34:05.:34:09.

keep saying, please to this from solving the problems at A We

:34:10.:34:13.

should be starting it from solving the problems of the patients in

:34:14.:34:16.

their totality, the best place they should go, not from A This really

:34:17.:34:23.

upsets me, as a GP I am there to be a proxy A doctor. I am a GP, a

:34:24.:34:27.

highly skilled doctor, looking after patients from cradle to grave across

:34:28.:34:32.

the physical, psychological and social, I am not an A doctor. I

:34:33.:34:37.

don't disagree with that, nobody is saying that GPs are not working hard

:34:38.:34:41.

enough. You just did, actually, about some of them. In some

:34:42.:34:46.

practices, what we need to see, it's not just GPs in GP surgeries, it is

:34:47.:34:50.

advanced nurse practitioners, pharmacists. It doesn't necessarily

:34:51.:34:55.

need to be all on the GPs. I think advanced nurse practitioners are in

:34:56.:35:00.

short supply. Position associate or go to hospital, -- physician

:35:01.:35:04.

associates. We have very few trainees, junior doctors in general

:35:05.:35:07.

practice, unlike hospitals, which tend to have some slack with the

:35:08.:35:11.

junior doctor community and workforce. This isn't an argument,

:35:12.:35:15.

this is about saying, let's stop looking at the National health

:35:16.:35:18.

system as a National hospital system. GPs tomorrow will see about

:35:19.:35:25.

1.3 million patients. That is a lot of thoughtful. A lot of activity

:35:26.:35:30.

with no resources. If you wanted the GPs to behave better, in your terms,

:35:31.:35:34.

when you allocated more money to GPs, part of the reforms, because

:35:35.:35:38.

that's where it went, shouldn't you have targeted it more closely to

:35:39.:35:43.

where they want to operate? That is exactly what the Prime Minister is

:35:44.:35:46.

saying, extra funding is being made available by GPs to extend hours and

:35:47.:35:50.

services. If certain GP practices cannot do that, the money will

:35:51.:35:53.

follow the patient to where they move onto. We have no doctors to do

:35:54.:35:58.

it. I was on a coach last week, the coach driver stopped in the service

:35:59.:36:01.

station for an hour, they were stopping for a rest. We cannot do

:36:02.:36:06.

it. Even if you gave us millions more money, and thankfully NHS is

:36:07.:36:13.

recognising that we need a solution through the five-day week, we

:36:14.:36:15.

haven't got the doctors to deliver this. It would take a while to get

:36:16.:36:18.

them? That's my point, that's why we need to be using all how care

:36:19.:36:22.

professional. Even if you got this right, would it make a difference to

:36:23.:36:25.

what many regard as the crisis in our hospitals? I think it would. If

:36:26.:36:29.

you look at patients, they just want to go to a service that will address

:36:30.:36:34.

the problems. In Scotland for example, pharmacists have their own

:36:35.:36:38.

patient list. Patients go and see the pharmacists first. There are

:36:39.:36:41.

lots of conditions, for example if you want anticoagulants, you don't

:36:42.:36:46.

necessarily need to see a doctor, a pharmacist can manage that and free

:36:47.:36:51.

up the doctor in other ways. The Prime Minister has said that if

:36:52.:36:54.

things do not change she is threatening to reduce funding to

:36:55.:36:58.

doctors who do not comply. Can you both agree, that is probably an

:36:59.:37:01.

empty threat, that's not going to happen? I hope it's an empty threat.

:37:02.:37:06.

We're trying our best. People like me in my profession, the seniors in

:37:07.:37:10.

our profession, are really trying to pull up morale and get people into

:37:11.:37:13.

general practice, which is a wonderful profession, absolutely

:37:14.:37:18.

wonderful place to be. But slapping us off and telling us that we are

:37:19.:37:22.

lazy really doesn't help. I really don't think anybody is doing that.

:37:23.:37:26.

We have run out of time, but I'm certain that we will be back to the

:37:27.:37:29.

subject before this winter is out. It's just gone 11:35am,

:37:30.:37:31.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:37:32.:37:33.

in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20

:37:34.:37:36.

minutes: The Week Ahead. Hello and welcome to

:37:37.:37:48.

Sunday Politics in the West. Coming up: Labour leader

:37:49.:37:50.

Jeremy Corbyn has attracted hundreds to rallies in Bristol,

:37:51.:37:52.

but do he and his supporters help It's ladies day on Sunday

:37:53.:37:55.

Politics in the West. David is away on his travels so I'll

:37:56.:38:02.

be with you today alongside the Conservative MP for Devizes,

:38:03.:38:05.

Claire Perry. And Dawn Primarolo, we must call

:38:06.:38:09.

you Baroness Dawn Primarolo, Let's dive into the

:38:10.:38:13.

subject of the week. I want to ask Claire Perry,

:38:14.:38:21.

was Jeremy Corbyn right wehn he said that while the NHS is in crisis,

:38:22.:38:26.

the Prime Minister is in denial? Clearly we want the NHS to work

:38:27.:38:31.

at all times of year and it is really worrying

:38:32.:38:37.

when we hear the stories of people being left on beds and concerns

:38:38.:38:40.

rising overtreatment times. But I talked yesterday to the head

:38:41.:38:45.

of a hospital in Swindon because I wanted to know

:38:46.:38:48.

what was happening on the ground and she said, and I think it's

:38:49.:38:52.

what people are saying right across the country, she said

:38:53.:38:55.

things are really tough, we've had a big spike in people

:38:56.:38:57.

coming into A In fact, the A in the NHS

:38:58.:39:00.

on the Tuesday after Christmas was the busiest it has ever been

:39:01.:39:04.

in NHS history. More people are going,

:39:05.:39:06.

more money is being spent, more people are being seen and,

:39:07.:39:09.

of course, there will be times when it does get busier,

:39:10.:39:11.

but so far it seems to be doing its job and it doesn't mean

:39:12.:39:14.

that things can't improve. The biggest thing, and I think Dawn

:39:15.:39:20.

will agree, is trying to link up the NHS and social care better

:39:21.:39:23.

because the people who are going into A who really do require

:39:24.:39:27.

treatment and going into hospital are often the frail elderly

:39:28.:39:29.

who then need to come out It always happens

:39:30.:39:32.

at this time of year. The humanitarian crisis language,

:39:33.:39:38.

was that too strong? Well, I wouldn't have

:39:39.:39:42.

described it that way, but I think we can all agree

:39:43.:39:45.

that the NHS is under huge pressure. It has the winter crisis,

:39:46.:39:50.

it's not properly funded, we are falling behind our European

:39:51.:39:52.

partners, less beds, less doctors, less scanners and we're asking it

:39:53.:39:56.

to do more and more and more. The staff are doing brilliantly,

:39:57.:40:01.

but the government has two face up to the fact that it's not actually

:40:02.:40:05.

giving the NHS enough money for it even to stand

:40:06.:40:10.

still and do what it does today. Let's pause just for a minute

:40:11.:40:14.

because I want to turn to the subject of child safety

:40:15.:40:16.

on the Internet. That's something that Claire Perry

:40:17.:40:19.

here has long been campaigning for and recently she's introduced

:40:20.:40:21.

new clauses in the Digital Economy Bill forcing adult websites

:40:22.:40:24.

to check users are over 18. But how much protection do

:40:25.:40:28.

young people themselves Martin Jones has been

:40:29.:40:33.

to Kingswood to find out. Like most teenagers,

:40:34.:40:42.

these students at Kings Oak Academy All the time when I get home

:40:43.:40:44.

from school until I go to sleep. If I'm not on there then my phone

:40:45.:40:54.

will be next to me. They say they know how

:40:55.:40:58.

to protect themselves. They teach as all the time about

:40:59.:41:01.

Internet safety ever since Year 7. It's been a main thing on the agenda

:41:02.:41:05.

over the years, I would say, and it's pretty much a key part

:41:06.:41:09.

of the curriculum. They tell us how to keep safe just

:41:10.:41:13.

by keeping away from dodgy websites. But there's lots of stuff out there

:41:14.:41:18.

that's frightening or dangerous. You're researching something

:41:19.:41:25.

or you've gone on to a website and maybe something will pop up

:41:26.:41:27.

or advertisement that will show People share things like on Facebook

:41:28.:41:30.

and stuff that I don't I can't help it myself because it's

:41:31.:41:36.

up to them what they share. The new Digital Economy Bill

:41:37.:41:43.

making its way through Parliament contains measures designed

:41:44.:41:45.

to protect them. It forces Internet service providers

:41:46.:41:48.

to block sites that don't have age verification and it bans some types

:41:49.:41:52.

of pornography completely. West MP has been instrumental

:41:53.:41:58.

in making it happen. I would argue very strongly

:41:59.:42:03.

that this is not about censorship or restriction of legal access

:42:04.:42:05.

for adults, it's about proving that those who are consuming that

:42:06.:42:09.

material are indeed over 18. This is simply putting in place

:42:10.:42:13.

the sorts of government regulation and advice and corporate social

:42:14.:42:17.

responsibly behaviour that has John Langley is someone directly

:42:18.:42:22.

affected by Internet regulation. He's now an independent politician,

:42:23.:42:27.

but he's appeared adult films. He thinks responsible producers

:42:28.:42:30.

will welcome the new proposals, I think the responsibility

:42:31.:42:36.

of keeping children safe is down Would we be having this discussion

:42:37.:42:44.

if we were in Amsterdam or Berlin where this stuff is everywhere

:42:45.:42:51.

and people just say, So I think that's going to be

:42:52.:42:53.

the challenge here. Not so much about how it's

:42:54.:42:58.

regulated, it's about how parents Back in Kings Oak Academy,

:42:59.:43:01.

the question is whether the students believe they need more measures

:43:02.:43:07.

like the new bill So, not only children and students,

:43:08.:43:10.

but teach parents as well and how I don't think there's much they can

:43:11.:43:22.

do about it because people always What constitutes OK to some people

:43:23.:43:30.

might not be OK to others so they can't just put a block

:43:31.:43:35.

on certain things without I don't think the

:43:36.:43:38.

government can do much. They can do their best,

:43:39.:43:43.

but I think the best thing to do is probably educate people on how

:43:44.:43:46.

to protect themselves because people If they know how to protect

:43:47.:43:50.

themselves that would be much better Thanks for your thoughts, Jess,

:43:51.:43:56.

Callum Steph and Jamie You can see the Lib Dem candidate

:43:57.:44:03.

for Bath has joined us to talk Hear from you in a minute, but first

:44:04.:44:10.

I want to ask Claire Perry, the measures you want to introduce

:44:11.:44:18.

here, censorship or sensible? Can I apologise, by the way,

:44:19.:44:21.

for wearing the same jacket. I do have other clothes but I

:44:22.:44:25.

haven't hit the January sales yet! Why do we expect the online

:44:26.:44:28.

world to be so different We quite properly, and a government

:44:29.:44:37.

can't achieve it all on its own, it has to be parents and children's

:44:38.:44:43.

safety, teachers are members of the public,

:44:44.:44:47.

everyone understands that. But we ask the world to do certain

:44:48.:44:48.

things in the off-line world. You can't get on a gambling

:44:49.:44:51.

site if you're under 18. That was a law that Dawn's

:44:52.:44:54.

government passed back You have to prove your over 18

:44:55.:44:56.

to access a gambling site. We try not to let kids by fax

:44:57.:45:00.

and alcohol if they're under 18. We don't let them see over 18

:45:01.:45:03.

films if we can help it. So, what I'd always argued,

:45:04.:45:10.

and I think this was very widely supported cross-party,

:45:11.:45:13.

we really have allowed the Internet to be a totally different place

:45:14.:45:15.

and why is that when we know young The problem with this language

:45:16.:45:18.

of censorship is it starts to raise the temperature in what actually

:45:19.:45:26.

is a very simple and sensible and quite small set of measures

:45:27.:45:29.

which are supported, by the way, by 80% of

:45:30.:45:32.

people in the country. The Lib Dems are against this and do

:45:33.:45:36.

think of it as censorship. Well, we think that this will be

:45:37.:45:39.

ineffectual to begin with and nobody wants children

:45:40.:45:45.

to access adult material. As a parent, I'm doubly

:45:46.:45:50.

concerned about that as well. This could be quite dangerous

:45:51.:45:54.

because it gives parents The real big issue online

:45:55.:45:57.

is the fact that there are predators out there who are grooming children

:45:58.:46:03.

for underage sex and this This happens in chat rooms

:46:04.:46:08.

and on social media sites. These don't have adult

:46:09.:46:16.

content on them. The way to control this is to get

:46:17.:46:19.

the parents to actually get involved We are always saying, parents,

:46:20.:46:22.

you should know more. You should be in tune

:46:23.:46:27.

with what your children are doing, It's a lot easier than people think

:46:28.:46:30.

because I've done it myself. For a start, you can activate

:46:31.:46:35.

the parental controls Parents have do understand they can

:46:36.:46:37.

block what children download on their devices as well

:46:38.:46:43.

and the apps that they get. Some apps mentioned on that report

:46:44.:46:47.

from the schoolkids. The parents need to decide what apps

:46:48.:46:52.

they have and be involved with their children to decide

:46:53.:46:55.

what they're allowed Dawn, how do you think this could be

:46:56.:46:57.

made to work because people I think the students you interviewed

:46:58.:47:02.

put it very eloquently. The balance between what

:47:03.:47:12.

the government can do, parental responsibility,

:47:13.:47:14.

but we also have to remember that not all parents know

:47:15.:47:16.

or exercise those controls So I think what absolutely Claire

:47:17.:47:19.

quite clearly put, why should That is from the types

:47:20.:47:30.

of protection be put elsewhere. If we are to crack this link

:47:31.:47:36.

between pornography, explicit, violence and sexual images

:47:37.:47:45.

and domestic violence and have child safety,

:47:46.:47:53.

it's a much more complex issue Claire is not claiming

:47:54.:48:01.

that she has sorted it. That's the key, there's

:48:02.:48:03.

more to look at. One worry I do have

:48:04.:48:07.

is the age verification test People are worried about credit card

:48:08.:48:10.

risks and blackmail. And privacy, which is

:48:11.:48:13.

a very valid concern. I know people realise this,

:48:14.:48:18.

but every keystroke you currently have on the Internet is tracked

:48:19.:48:20.

by somebody and there's a reason why adverts for jackets

:48:21.:48:23.

on sale follow you around. Someone somewhere sees what you're

:48:24.:48:25.

doing on the Internet, so this idea that we operate

:48:26.:48:27.

in a private world is not true. But there was a lot of discussion

:48:28.:48:31.

about this in the Bill and it is the case, as was done

:48:32.:48:34.

with the gambling age verification system,

:48:35.:48:37.

and the mobile phones where you have to prove you're over 18 in order

:48:38.:48:39.

to switch on various adult content sites,

:48:40.:48:43.

this technology does work. Can I just say again,

:48:44.:48:47.

no one is arguing that we make perfect the enemy of the good

:48:48.:48:50.

whenever we have this conversation and surely it is right,

:48:51.:48:56.

as Dawn said, that government should take a lead in this and say

:48:57.:49:01.

we want to make children are safe in the online world

:49:02.:49:04.

as they are in real life. Right, let me bring

:49:05.:49:09.

you in on that as a final point. Very briefly, it is

:49:10.:49:10.

a start, isn't it? Yes, but the trouble is it gives

:49:11.:49:12.

people false confidence. They think that they don't have do

:49:13.:49:14.

do something as parents, but they do because this technology

:49:15.:49:17.

is not proven. Indeed, the bill doesn't

:49:18.:49:19.

actually specify how the age What this government should do

:49:20.:49:21.

is actually support pastoral care offices in school so that parents

:49:22.:49:31.

can be educated and actually We'll have to call time

:49:32.:49:34.

on this one for now, but thank you for your input

:49:35.:49:39.

on that one. The next big electoral test

:49:40.:49:42.

in the West is on May the 4th. For Labour, the county

:49:43.:49:45.

elections in Somerset, Wiltshire and Gloucestershire,

:49:46.:49:46.

ae not great hopes maybe, but the new metro Mayors being

:49:47.:49:49.

chosen in several English cities, So, the selection of a little-known

:49:50.:49:53.

parish councillor for the West of England contest has

:49:54.:49:59.

caused some surprise. Bristol is good for Labour,

:50:00.:50:02.

has thousands of members and many turned out last summer

:50:03.:50:11.

to show their support Getting Jeremy Corbyn re-elected

:50:12.:50:14.

was just the start for many They are now trying

:50:15.:50:19.

to reshape the Labour Party. Momentum activists are getting

:50:20.:50:23.

themselves into position of power in local constituency parties

:50:24.:50:26.

and they mobilised in the contest to choose a candidate for the West

:50:27.:50:30.

of England Metro Mayor election. The selection shows

:50:31.:50:36.

they are succeeding. The shortlist included lawyer Carl

:50:37.:50:40.

Brown and the Labour group leader on Bath North East Somerset Council,

:50:41.:50:43.

Robin Moss, but the clear winner was parish councillor Lesley Mansell

:50:44.:50:46.

who had the backing of Momentum. The party's Bristol chair

:50:47.:50:51.

thinks that swung it. I think it's very likely they did,

:50:52.:50:56.

yes, because they have got Also, they are also simultaneously

:50:57.:50:59.

fully paid-up members So probably, yes, why would they do

:51:00.:51:04.

all this lobbying if it Lesley Mansell works in the NHS

:51:05.:51:10.

as an equalities officer. She plays down the divisions

:51:11.:51:17.

within the party. It's not about Left and it's

:51:18.:51:22.

not about Right either. It's about, we're a Labour Party

:51:23.:51:25.

and we like a family, aren't we? Sometimes families are

:51:26.:51:28.

a bit dysfunctional, but we get along and that's

:51:29.:51:32.

the way it is now for us. Let's face it, there's probably more

:51:33.:51:35.

disunity in the Conservative Party, but we don't hear too much

:51:36.:51:38.

about that in the media. That's echoed by Jeremy Corbyn

:51:39.:51:42.

who warmly welcomes her selection. Momentum is part of the Labour Party

:51:43.:51:46.

and they are members of the Labour Party,

:51:47.:51:48.

obviously, otherwise they wouldn't be able to be

:51:49.:51:50.

active within the party. And they are putting

:51:51.:51:53.

forward a political Let's have that

:51:54.:51:55.

discussion and debate. We select our candidates,

:51:56.:52:00.

we come together and support them as indeed we will campaign

:52:01.:52:03.

to support Lesley Mansell But will the Corbynistas who crowded

:52:04.:52:05.

College Green last summer get out on the streets

:52:06.:52:12.

in the run-up to May's vote? That's what we'll see

:52:13.:52:17.

between now and May. We hope that all of this phalanx

:52:18.:52:20.

of people won't just pay their subscription,

:52:21.:52:23.

so to speak, and vanish. We hope that they will come out

:52:24.:52:25.

and that they will campaign. It is a big test and I think it

:52:26.:52:28.

will be looked at very Again, it's a big test

:52:29.:52:34.

for Jeremy Corbyn, our leader. Meanwhile, those who would like him

:52:35.:52:40.

gone may be disinclined I've talked to many Corbyn opponents

:52:41.:52:43.

in labour who are deeply worried by what's going on but don't

:52:44.:52:50.

want to go public at this point. Their tactic is to leave

:52:51.:52:53.

their leader and supporters in Momentum and their candidate

:52:54.:52:55.

in the West of England to suffer at the polls and hope that electoral

:52:56.:52:58.

embarrassment will bring So, Dawn Primarolo, are you allowing

:52:59.:53:01.

Corbyn to dig his own grave? There's always people

:53:02.:53:09.

who want to speak unattributed. Lesley was properly selected under

:53:10.:53:21.

the laws of the Labour Party to be our candidate and she will set

:53:22.:53:23.

out her agenda about the priorities - jobs, transport,

:53:24.:53:26.

economy - as her platform. Is Momentum helping to call

:53:27.:53:32.

the shots in the Labour Party? Look, every single member

:53:33.:53:35.

who votes in an election is a member of the Labour Party

:53:36.:53:39.

and it is the same as the Conservative Party,

:53:40.:53:42.

people gravitate to groups where they have similar views

:53:43.:53:47.

and that will happen. It's no secret Labour

:53:48.:53:51.

is going through a difficult time electorally, and it will be

:53:52.:53:55.

a challenge, but Labour members have to get out there and make sure

:53:56.:53:58.

that they are working for the candidate and at least

:53:59.:54:02.

the Labour Party is growing. Our membership has doubled,

:54:03.:54:05.

we've attracted young people, unlike the Conservative Party,

:54:06.:54:08.

and people want to change the world and we should be able to work

:54:09.:54:12.

together to produce the results What about that civil war that we've

:54:13.:54:15.

seen in the Labour Party? Is it now bubbling away

:54:16.:54:21.

under the surface? Frankly, to call it

:54:22.:54:25.

a civil war is... Given the Labour Party's

:54:26.:54:28.

history and, indeed, the Conservative Party's history

:54:29.:54:30.

over the decades, about disagreeing What's important for Labour

:54:31.:54:34.

is when your membership overdoubles, people come in with different views

:54:35.:54:40.

and interviews yes and how That's what we've got to do

:54:41.:54:47.

and we've got to do it in Bristol And if Labour doesn't do

:54:48.:55:14.

well on May the 4th? Well, let's wait

:55:15.:55:19.

and see what happens. Every single member of the party

:55:20.:55:20.

should be campaigning to get It will be difficult

:55:21.:55:22.

because the electorate don't necessarily understand properly

:55:23.:55:26.

what the Metro Mayor is. Leslie herself has said

:55:27.:55:28.

there is a challenge to tell people I remember right after the 2010

:55:29.:55:31.

election we also has a whole series of Mayoral proposals right

:55:32.:55:40.

across the country and Bristol was one of the few places

:55:41.:55:42.

that ended up having an elected But the mood seems to be

:55:43.:55:46.

changing quite dramatically. For the last six years,

:55:47.:55:51.

the government has been much more focused on localism,

:55:52.:55:53.

which sounds like a buzzword, but it's about pushing

:55:54.:55:55.

decisions about transport, station improvements, about funding

:55:56.:55:57.

for things like social care, down to a lower level to get it

:55:58.:56:00.

closer to people. It is partly about educating

:56:01.:56:04.

about what this road is, but you can only look to London

:56:05.:56:10.

where we had a very interesting election and I gather

:56:11.:56:13.

Sadiq Khan is doing very well. He's rolling back on some

:56:14.:56:17.

of his pledges but he's really We can see what influence and power

:56:18.:56:20.

you can have as a Metro Mayor. Yes, it's a new role

:56:21.:56:24.

and the Conservative candidate I'm confident they'll do incredibly

:56:25.:56:27.

well, but it's up to them to get out there and market what they would do

:56:28.:56:33.

for the people of this Metro area. Dawn admits Labour

:56:34.:56:37.

is down in the polls. Is this a time when the Tories

:56:38.:56:40.

are rubbing their hands together? No, we have some real

:56:41.:56:43.

challenges in this country. All and I would go away and probably

:56:44.:56:47.

have a conversation about the NHS, I think, because regardless

:56:48.:56:51.

of the politics we have How do you deal with Brexit,

:56:52.:56:53.

which we know is a real So it's up for Labour how they sort

:56:54.:57:08.

out their leadership. It's a shame that some good MPs like

:57:09.:57:12.

Tristram Hunt are stepping down. We heard this week that he is

:57:13.:57:15.

stepping down so Labour is losing some talented people,

:57:16.:57:18.

but it's up to the party to sort We want a good, fair fight

:57:19.:57:21.

in the council elections coming up this year and in the Mayoral

:57:22.:57:26.

collections and we just want to get on with the job of delivering

:57:27.:57:29.

a good Brexit and running It is time to take swift look

:57:30.:57:32.

at the political news A government minister

:57:33.:57:37.

was in Yeovil on Monday. Harriet Baldwin confirmed

:57:38.:57:42.

a ?271 million contract for Leonardo The unions really want to see

:57:43.:57:44.

new aircraft built here. A Swindon MP has called

:57:45.:57:53.

for the proceeds from the sugar tax to be bent

:57:54.:57:56.

getting kids into sport. The levy on sugary

:57:57.:57:58.

drinks comes in in 2018. Justin Tomlinson says

:57:59.:58:01.

sports can is a good Over 200 children here in

:58:02.:58:05.

the holidays and slightly more boys That's something we can

:58:06.:58:09.

learn lessons from. But being active and

:58:10.:58:12.

healthy is so important. Council Tax in Bristol

:58:13.:58:16.

is likely to rise by The mayor also released details

:58:17.:58:18.

of ?64 million worth of cuts Bath could become the first place in

:58:19.:58:23.

Britain to introduce a tourist tax. It would need a change in the law

:58:24.:58:31.

before the council could press ahead but they're asking

:58:32.:58:35.

the government for permission. We've nearly passed

:58:36.:58:43.

a whole political programme without mentioning

:58:44.:58:45.

the "B" word, Brexit. Are you and your colleagues

:58:46.:58:48.

now planning to No, we want a plan. We want the

:58:49.:59:07.

Prime Minister to tell us how we will protect jobs, protect the

:59:08.:59:12.

economy and how we will have trade that isn't burdened with huge

:59:13.:59:16.

tariffs or bureaucratic impediments. We need it now because Article 50

:59:17.:59:22.

will be triggered very soon. Our remaining MPs like you huddled

:59:23.:59:28.

together discussing how you can keep us in the EU? No, anyone who doesn't

:59:29.:59:34.

accept the result has do have a long accept the result has do have a long

:59:35.:59:39.

and hard think about what they are doing in politics because a clear.

:59:40.:59:45.

The challenge is, what is the shape of the Brexit deal? By the way, we

:59:46.:59:52.

don't control it. If we don't get a deal out of Europe, in two years

:59:53.:59:57.

we're out. We then stopped contributing to the EU budget so

:59:58.:00:00.

it's in everyone's interest to come up with a deal and am confident we

:00:01.:00:05.

can as with the fifth largest economy in the world. We will look

:00:06.:00:10.

next week to some flesh on those bones. Thanks to you. That's it from

:00:11.:00:17.

us this week. Thank you to my guests. You saw a brief clip of

:00:18.:00:25.

Jeremy Corbyn in the report earlier. We actually had a long chat with

:00:26.:00:30.

him. If you want to see that you can follow the link on our Twitter

:00:31.:00:37.

account. The on the screen. David is back next week, but for

:00:38.:00:41.

Now, if anyone thought Donald Trump would tone things down

:00:42.:00:49.

after the American election campaign, they may have

:00:50.:00:50.

The period where he has been President-elect will make them think

:00:51.:01:03.

again. The inauguration is coming up on Friday.

:01:04.:01:05.

Never has the forthcoming inauguration of a president been

:01:06.:01:07.

In a moment, we'll talk to a man who knows Mr Trump

:01:08.:01:11.

But first, let's have a look at the press conference

:01:12.:01:14.

Mr Trump gave on Wednesday, in which he took the opportunity

:01:15.:01:17.

to rubbish reports that Russia has obtained compromising information

:01:18.:01:19.

You are attacking our news organisation.

:01:20.:01:35.

Can you give us a chance, you are attacking our news

:01:36.:01:40.

organisation, can you give us a chance to ask a question, sir?

:01:41.:01:43.

As far as Buzzfeed, which is a failing pile of garbage,

:01:44.:01:48.

writing it, I think they're going to suffer the consequences.

:01:49.:01:52.

Does anyone really believe that story?

:01:53.:01:55.

I'm also very much of a germaphobe, by the way.

:01:56.:01:59.

If Putin likes Donald Trump, guess what, folks, that's called

:02:00.:02:01.

The only ones that care about my tax returns are the reporters, OK?

:02:02.:02:09.

Do you not think the American public is concerned?

:02:10.:02:11.

The Wiggo, Donald Trump at his first last conference. The Can will he

:02:12.:02:24.

change as President? Because he hasn't changed in the run-up to

:02:25.:02:28.

being inaugurated? I don't think he will commit he doesn't see any point

:02:29.:02:32.

in changing. Why would he change from the personality that just one,

:02:33.:02:37.

as he just said, I just one. All of the bleeding-heart liberals can wail

:02:38.:02:40.

and brush their teeth and say how ghastly that all this, Hillary

:02:41.:02:44.

should have won and so on, but he has got an incredible mandate.

:02:45.:02:48.

Remember, Trump has the House committee has the Senate, he will

:02:49.:02:51.

have the Supreme Court. He has incredible power right now. He

:02:52.:02:55.

doesn't have to listen to anybody. I spoke to him a couple of weeks ago

:02:56.:02:58.

specifically about Twitter, I asked him what the impact was of Twitter.

:02:59.:03:02.

He said, I have 60 million people following me on Twitter. I was able

:03:03.:03:08.

to bypass mainstream media, bypass all modern political convention and

:03:09.:03:12.

talk directly to potential voters. Secondly, I can turn on the TV in

:03:13.:03:16.

the morning, I can see a rival getting all of the airtime, and I

:03:17.:03:20.

can fire off a tweet, for free, as a marketing man he loves that, and,

:03:21.:03:24.

boom, I'm on the news agenda again. He was able to use that

:03:25.:03:28.

magnificently. Twitter to him didn't cost him a dollar. He is going to

:03:29.:03:36.

carry on tweeting in the last six weeks, he was not sleeping. Trump

:03:37.:03:44.

has never had an alcoholic drink a cigarette or a drug. He is a fit by

:03:45.:03:48.

the 70, he has incredible energy and he is incredibly competitive. At his

:03:49.:03:52.

heart, he is a businessman. If you look at him as a political

:03:53.:03:56.

ideologue, you completely missed the point of trouble. Don't take what he

:03:57.:04:00.

says literally, look upon it as a negotiating point that he started

:04:01.:04:04.

from, and try to do business with him as a business person would, and

:04:05.:04:09.

you may be presently surprised so pleasantly surprised. He treats the

:04:10.:04:13.

press and the media entirely differently to any other politician

:04:14.:04:16.

or main politician in that normally the politicians try to get the media

:04:17.:04:23.

off a particular subject, or they try to conciliate with the media. He

:04:24.:04:27.

just comes and punches the media in the nose when he doesn't like them.

:04:28.:04:33.

This could catch on, you know! You are absolutely right, for a start,

:04:34.:04:37.

nobody could accuse him of letting that victory go to his head. You

:04:38.:04:44.

know, he won't say, I will now be this lofty president. He's exactly

:04:45.:04:47.

the same as he was before. What is fascinating is his Laois and ship

:04:48.:04:50.

with the media. I haven't met, and I'm sure you haven't, met a party

:04:51.:04:55.

leader who is obsessed with the media. But they pretend not to be.

:04:56.:05:01.

You know, they state, oh, somebody told me about a column, I didn't

:05:02.:05:08.

read it. He is utterly transparent in his obsession with the media, he

:05:09.:05:12.

doesn't pretend. How that plays out, who knows? It's a completely

:05:13.:05:15.

different dynamic than anyone has seen by. Like he is the issue, he

:05:16.:05:21.

has appointed an unusual Cabinet, that you could criticise in many

:05:22.:05:24.

ways. Nearly all of them are independent people in their own

:05:25.:05:28.

right. A lot of them are wealthy, too. They have their own views. They

:05:29.:05:32.

might not like what he tweaked at 3am, and he does have to deal with

:05:33.:05:38.

his Cabinet now. Mad dog matters, now the Defence Secretary, he might

:05:39.:05:41.

not like what's said about China at three in morning - general matters.

:05:42.:05:46.

This is what gets very conjugated. We cannot imagine here in our

:05:47.:05:50.

political system any kind of appointments like this. Using the

:05:51.:05:53.

wouldn't have a line-up of billionaires of the kind of

:05:54.:05:56.

background that he has chosen -- you simply wouldn't have. But that won't

:05:57.:06:00.

stop him saying and reading what he thinks. Maybe it will cause him some

:06:01.:06:04.

internal issues when the following day he has the square rigged with

:06:05.:06:07.

whatever they think. But he's going to press ahead. Are we any clearer

:06:08.:06:15.

in terms of policy. I know policy hasn't featured hugely in this

:06:16.:06:19.

campaign of 2016. Do we have any really clear idea what Mr Trump is

:06:20.:06:25.

hoping to achieve? He has had some consistent theme going back over 25

:06:26.:06:30.

years. One is a deep scepticism about international trade and the

:06:31.:06:33.

kind of deals that America has been doing over that period. It has been

:06:34.:06:37.

so consistent that is has been hard to spin as something that you say

:06:38.:06:40.

during the course of a campaign of something to get elected.

:06:41.:06:43.

Ultimately, Piers is correct, he won't change. When he won the

:06:44.:06:47.

election committee gave a relatively magnanimous beach. I thought his ego

:06:48.:06:50.

had been sated and he had got what he wanted. He will end up governing

:06:51.:06:55.

as is likely eccentric New York liberal and everything will be fine.

:06:56.:06:58.

In the recent weeks it has come to my attention that that might not be

:06:59.:07:01.

entirely true! LAUGHTER

:07:02.:07:07.

It is a real test of the American system, the Texan bouncers, the

:07:08.:07:08.

foreign policy establishment which is about to have the orthodoxies

:07:09.:07:14.

disrupted -- the checks and balances. I think he has completely

:07:15.:07:18.

ripped up the American political system. Washington as we know it is

:07:19.:07:22.

dead. From his garage do things his way, he doesn't care, frankly, what

:07:23.:07:28.

any of us thinks -- Trump is going to do things his way. If he can

:07:29.:07:31.

deliver for the people who voted for him who fault this disenfranchised,

:07:32.:07:40.

-- who voted for him who felt this disenfranchised. They voted

:07:41.:07:44.

accordingly. They want to see jobs and the economy in good shape, they

:07:45.:07:48.

want to feel secure. They want to feel that immigration has been

:07:49.:07:52.

tightened. If Trump can deliver on those main theme for the rust belt

:07:53.:07:56.

communities of America, I'm telling you, he will go down as a very

:07:57.:08:00.

successful president. All of the offensive rhetoric and the

:08:01.:08:03.

argy-bargy with CNN and whatever it may be will be completely

:08:04.:08:07.

irrelevant. Let me finish with a parochial question. Is it fair to

:08:08.:08:14.

say quite well disposed to this country? And that he would like,

:08:15.:08:16.

that he's up for a speedy free-trade, bilateral free-trade

:08:17.:08:21.

you'll? Think we have to be sensible as the country. Come Friday, he is

:08:22.:08:26.

the president of the United States, the most powerful man and well. He

:08:27.:08:29.

said to me that he feels half British, his mum was born and raised

:08:30.:08:34.

in Scotland until the age of 18, he loves British, his mother used to

:08:35.:08:37.

love watching the Queen, he feels very, you know, I would roll out the

:08:38.:08:42.

red carpet for Trump, let him eat Her Majesty. The crucial point for

:08:43.:08:47.

us as a country is coming -- let him me to Her Majesty. If we can do a

:08:48.:08:53.

speedy deal within an 18 month period, it really sends a message

:08:54.:08:56.

that well but we are back in the game, that is a hugely beneficial

:08:57.:08:59.

thing for this country. Well, a man whose advisers were indicating that

:09:00.:09:03.

maybe he should learn a few things from Donald Trump was Jeremy Corbyn.

:09:04.:09:10.

Yes, MBE. Mr Corbyn appeared on the Andrew Marr Show this morning. --

:09:11.:09:12.

yes, indeed. If you don't win Copeland,

:09:13.:09:15.

and if you don't win Stoke-on-Trent Central,

:09:16.:09:17.

you're toast, aren't you? Our party is going to fight very

:09:18.:09:19.

hard in those elections, as we are in the local elections,

:09:20.:09:23.

to put those policies out there. It's an opportunity to challenge

:09:24.:09:27.

the Government on the NHS. It's an opportunity to challenge

:09:28.:09:29.

them on the chaos of Brexit. It's an opportunity to challenge

:09:30.:09:32.

them on the housing shortage. It's an opportunity to challenge

:09:33.:09:34.

them on zero-hours contracts. Is there ever a moment that you look

:09:35.:09:36.

in the mirror and think, you know what, I've done my best,

:09:37.:09:41.

but this might not be for me? I look in the mirror

:09:42.:09:44.

every day and I think, let's go out there and try

:09:45.:09:47.

and create a society where there are opportunities for all,

:09:48.:09:50.

where there aren't these terrible levels of poverty, where

:09:51.:09:52.

there isn't homelessness, where there are houses for all,

:09:53.:09:54.

and where young people aren't frightened of going to university

:09:55.:09:56.

because of the debts they are going to end up

:09:57.:09:59.

with at the end of their course. Mr Corbyn earlier this morning.

:10:00.:10:06.

Steve, would it be fair to say that the mainstream of the Labour Party

:10:07.:10:09.

has now come to the conclusion that they just have to let Mr Corbyn get

:10:10.:10:13.

on with it, that they are not going to try and influence what he does.

:10:14.:10:18.

They will continue to try and have their own views, but it's his show,

:10:19.:10:23.

it's up to him, if it's a mess, he has to live with it and we'll have

:10:24.:10:26.

clean hands? For now, yes. I think they made a mistake when he was

:10:27.:10:30.

first elected to start in some cases tweeting within seconds that it was

:10:31.:10:34.

going to be a disaster, this was Labour MPs. They made a complete

:10:35.:10:38.

mess of that attempted coup in the summer, which strengthened his

:10:39.:10:43.

position. And he did, it gave Corbyn the space with total legitimacy to

:10:44.:10:47.

say that part of the problem is, we're having this public Civil War.

:10:48.:10:52.

In keeping quiet, that disappeared as part of the explanation for why

:10:53.:10:56.

Labour and low in the polls. I think they are partly doing that. But they

:10:57.:11:03.

are also struggling, the so-called mainstream Labour MPs, to decide

:11:04.:11:06.

what the distinctive agenda is. It's one of the many differences with the

:11:07.:11:10.

80s, where you had a group of people sure of what they believed in, they

:11:11.:11:14.

left to form the SDP. What's happening now is that they are

:11:15.:11:18.

leaving politics altogether. That is a crisis of social Democrats all

:11:19.:11:23.

across Europe, including the French Socialists, as we will find out

:11:24.:11:26.

later in the spring. Let Corbyn because then, that's the strategy.

:11:27.:11:33.

There is a weary and sometimes literal resignation from the

:11:34.:11:35.

moderates in the Labour Party. If you talk to them, they are no longer

:11:36.:11:38.

angry, they have always run out of steam to be angry about what's going

:11:39.:11:41.

on. They are just sort of tired and feel that they've just got to see

:11:42.:11:45.

this through now. I think the by-elections will be interesting.

:11:46.:11:49.

When Andrew Marr said, you're toast, and you? I thought, he's never

:11:50.:11:53.

posed! That was right. A quick thought from view? One thing Corbyn

:11:54.:11:58.

has in common with Trump is immunity to bad news. I think he can lose

:11:59.:12:07.

Copeland and lose Stoke, and as long as it is not a sequence of

:12:08.:12:09.

resignations and by-elections afterwards, with maybe a dozen or 20

:12:10.:12:12.

Labour MPs going, he can still enjoy what. It may be more trouble if

:12:13.:12:15.

Labour loses the United trade union elections. We are in a period of

:12:16.:12:21.

incredible unpredictability generally in global politics. If you

:12:22.:12:25.

look at the way the next year plays out, if for example brags it was a

:12:26.:12:28.

disaster and it starts to unravel very quickly, Theresa May is

:12:29.:12:31.

attached to that, clearly label would have a great opportunity

:12:32.:12:35.

potentially disease that higher ground, and when Eddie the Tories --

:12:36.:12:39.

Labour would have an opportunity. Is Corbyn the right guy? We interviewed

:12:40.:12:44.

him, what struck me was that he talked about being from, a laughable

:12:45.:12:49.

comparison, but when it is really laughable is this - Hillary Clinton,

:12:50.:12:53.

what were the things she stood for, nobody really knew? What does Trump

:12:54.:12:58.

stand for? Everybody knew. Corbyn has the work-out four or five

:12:59.:13:01.

messages and bang, bang, bang. He could still be in business. Thank

:13:02.:13:04.

you for being with us. I'll be back at the same

:13:05.:13:06.

time next weekend. Remember - if it's Sunday,

:13:07.:13:09.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:10.:13:11.

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