29/01/2017 Sunday Politics West


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29/01/2017

Andrew Neil and David Garmston are joined by Nigel Farage, MEP. The Political Panel consists of Janan Ganesh, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Steve Richards.


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Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees and citizens of seven

:01:07.:01:10.

mainly Muslim countries sparks protests at several US airports.

:01:11.:01:16.

In the West: Why are they still at it?

:01:17.:01:18.

why is it not yet last orders for Leave and Remain?

:01:19.:01:23.

Should she have spoken out more strongly?

:01:24.:01:25.

We'll ask former Ukip leader and Trump confidant Nigel Farage

:01:26.:01:27.

what he makes of the travel ban and the Prime Minister's

:01:28.:01:30.

In London this week, the mayor, Sadiq Khan,

:01:31.:01:33.

has been coming under pressure to explain his fares freeze

:01:34.:01:35.

and why it doesn't apply to everybody.

:01:36.:01:37.

And with me, the best and brightest political

:01:38.:01:39.

panel in the business - Steve Richards, Julia

:01:40.:01:41.

They'll be tweeting throughout the programme.

:01:42.:01:43.

It was soon after Theresa May left the White House on Friday that

:01:44.:01:46.

Donald Trump signed the executive order banning citizens from seven

:01:47.:01:49.

President Trump's 90-day ban covers Iran, Iraq,

:01:50.:01:55.

Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen and Syria, from

:01:56.:01:58.

where refugees are banned from until further notice.

:01:59.:02:03.

Donald Trump's executive order also imposes a complete ban

:02:04.:02:05.

on all refugees coming to the US for the next 120 days.

:02:06.:02:11.

Mr Trump said that the ban would keep radical Islamic terrorists out

:02:12.:02:14.

But the ban has sparked protests across the US,

:02:15.:02:23.

as people affected and already in the air were detained

:02:24.:02:25.

US laws have begun legal action to challenge the ban, which many

:02:26.:02:29.

At a press conference in Ankara, Turkey, Theresa May was asked

:02:30.:02:35.

about the refugee ban three times before giving this response...

:02:36.:02:40.

Well, the United States is responsible for the United States'

:02:41.:02:42.

The United Kingdom is responsible for the United Kingdom's policy

:02:43.:02:48.

on refugees, and our policy on refugees is to have a number

:02:49.:02:51.

of voluntary schemes to bring Syrian refugees into the country.

:02:52.:02:54.

Downing Street later issued a statement saying:

:02:55.:03:09.

This morning, the Treasury Minister, David Gauke, was asked why

:03:10.:03:11.

Theresa May had refused to condemn the travel ban at yesterday's

:03:12.:03:14.

The Prime Minister is not a shoot-from-the-hip

:03:15.:03:20.

She wants to see the evidence, she wants

:03:21.:03:24.

to understand precisely what the implications are.

:03:25.:03:29.

She'd been in a series of very lengthy meetings with

:03:30.:03:31.

President Erdogan, and she's someone who wants to see the briefing and

:03:32.:03:35.

understand it, and then will respond to that.

:03:36.:03:39.

I think there are times where, you know, there's always

:03:40.:03:41.

pressure to respond within a news cycle and so on.

:03:42.:03:44.

The important thing is, we are saying we disagree with it

:03:45.:03:47.

We're joined now from North London by the Conservative

:03:48.:03:50.

Should the Government in general and Theresa May in particular be more

:03:51.:04:03.

vocal in their criticism of Donald Trump's travel bans? Well, as David

:04:04.:04:11.

just said, it is obviously right that Theresa has now said this is an

:04:12.:04:15.

appropriate and not something we agree with in our Government, but I

:04:16.:04:19.

wish she had said something at the time, not least because it affects

:04:20.:04:26.

our own citizens. One of our own MPs, Nadhim, for example, because it

:04:27.:04:30.

is also a global crisis. She had clearly built an excellent with

:04:31.:04:36.

Donald Trump -- she had built an excellent relationship with him, but

:04:37.:04:40.

she could have been firmer. Mrs May hasn't said any word of criticism

:04:41.:04:45.

about the travel bans. She refused to say anything three times in

:04:46.:04:50.

Ankara, and it is merely an anonymous Downing Street

:04:51.:04:53.

spokesperson that has issued the subsequent mild criticism. We have

:04:54.:04:56.

not heard from the Prime Minister at all on this matter in terms of

:04:57.:05:01.

criticism. No, but the spokesperson will be speaking with her blessing,

:05:02.:05:05.

so it is clearly something she has acknowledged. As I said before, I

:05:06.:05:08.

wish she had said something at the time. The global climate at the

:05:09.:05:12.

moment is delicate and we need our leaders to work together to address

:05:13.:05:18.

things like the refugee crisis. Potentially, this plays into the

:05:19.:05:21.

hands of Daesh. It is absolutely not the right message. What would you

:05:22.:05:29.

like the Prime Minister to say? As with any new relationship, it is

:05:30.:05:33.

about testing the boundaries. They had clearly got on well, so she

:05:34.:05:36.

should have felt braver to say something there and then. I would

:05:37.:05:39.

have preferred her to say, for example, I need to talk to Donald

:05:40.:05:42.

Trump about this. It is not something I support and I want to

:05:43.:05:45.

understand why because I believe there is a better way to deal with

:05:46.:05:50.

the terrorist threat. I would have liked her to suggest that she would

:05:51.:05:53.

engage with him to do that. The president has instituted a 90 day

:05:54.:05:58.

temporary ban on people coming from seven mainly Muslim majority

:05:59.:06:03.

population countries. The seven were on President Obama's list of the

:06:04.:06:09.

biggest terrorist threats to the United States. Mr Trump wants this

:06:10.:06:13.

temporary ban until he puts tougher vetting procedures in place. What is

:06:14.:06:19.

wrong with that? Because it appeared to me that it wasn't thought through

:06:20.:06:23.

and it was affecting ordinary citizens and some British citizens.

:06:24.:06:26.

It can't be right that a president in that position of power can

:06:27.:06:31.

arbitrarily come up with executive powers like that. It has already

:06:32.:06:36.

been challenged by his own courts. So it is not the considered approach

:06:37.:06:41.

I want to see in a global leader. Who do you believe will be hurt by

:06:42.:06:45.

this, given that there can be exceptions on a case-by-case basis?

:06:46.:06:58.

I think potentially, our global reputation is going to be hurt by

:06:59.:07:04.

this. I have been to the refugee camps in Europe myself. There are

:07:05.:07:08.

desperate people trying to free persecution who will be hurt by

:07:09.:07:11.

this. We are trying to heal the wounds in this country not only

:07:12.:07:15.

because of Brexit. This is a time of coming together, not about saying it

:07:16.:07:18.

is located discriminatory against race and religion in this way. Do

:07:19.:07:23.

you believe that Mr Trump's state visit should go ahead? Well, he is

:07:24.:07:29.

the leader of America, so it does need to go ahead and we need to work

:07:30.:07:32.

with him. I believe Theresa has started in a positive manner was

:07:33.:07:37.

that she just needs to continue in that vein. If he comes to our

:07:38.:07:39.

country, he needs to respect the way we feel about things. But yes, he is

:07:40.:07:45.

the president, so he does need to come to the UK. There is some debate

:07:46.:07:49.

within Westminster as to where it is appropriate for him to speak to MPs,

:07:50.:07:53.

but it is right that he comes. But if he does come on a state visit,

:07:54.:07:57.

should he be granted what this country has always thought of as a

:07:58.:08:01.

great honour, which is a joint address to both Houses of

:08:02.:08:07.

Parliament? I haven't been an MP long enough to understand the

:08:08.:08:09.

protocol of where is the right location for him to do that, but I

:08:10.:08:14.

believe in the past, it has been the greatest leaders, when they have

:08:15.:08:20.

achieved great things globally, it is Westminster Hall. But there are a

:08:21.:08:24.

number of MPs saying that is not the most appropriate place and I am

:08:25.:08:27.

inclined to agree. You don't think he should be accorded the privilege

:08:28.:08:30.

of speaking to a joint session of Parliament? I think there are places

:08:31.:08:36.

where he can do that, but Westminster Hall is not yet the

:08:37.:08:39.

right place. Thank you for joining us.

:08:40.:08:49.

Steve, within 24 hours, we have seen the difficulty of becoming Donald

:08:50.:08:55.

Trump's best friend. On the one hand, it could have huge advantages,

:08:56.:08:59.

particularly for a Brexit Britain. On the other hand, if you are going

:09:00.:09:04.

to be his best friend, you don't have to give a running commentary on

:09:05.:09:10.

every major thing he does. Yeah. We have learned a bit about Theresa

:09:11.:09:14.

May, that when she has to produce a set piece speech which she has time

:09:15.:09:20.

to prepare, she can get it totally right and sometimes more than right.

:09:21.:09:25.

When she is faced with a fast-moving story, she is leaden footed and

:09:26.:09:33.

can't think quickly on her feet. We know, did she regret not saying

:09:34.:09:38.

more? Evidently she did, because we got a statement from the Downing

:09:39.:09:42.

Street spokesperson saying more. So she can't think quickly. She's going

:09:43.:09:45.

to have to think very quickly in response to some of the things he's

:09:46.:09:48.

going to be doing, because she will be asked about it all the time. It

:09:49.:09:54.

does highlight the wider danger that the assumption that the special

:09:55.:09:59.

relationship is always a safe and fertile place to be has been proven

:10:00.:10:02.

wrong before and I think it will be proven wrong big-time in this case.

:10:03.:10:07.

You're shaking your head. I don't see why we are responsible for

:10:08.:10:12.

American domestic policy. I am as appalled as the next person by what

:10:13.:10:16.

Donald Trump has done. He said he was going to do this, which was why

:10:17.:10:21.

I did not want Americans to vote for him. In fact, what he has

:10:22.:10:25.

implemented is much less than what he said he would do when he was

:10:26.:10:30.

campaigning. I have always felt that the campaigning Trump was the real

:10:31.:10:36.

Trump. But what he has done is actually constitutional. He has the

:10:37.:10:39.

executive power to issue this order. It is within the rules in terms of a

:10:40.:10:44.

class of aliens deemed to be a risk to the United States. It is a 90 day

:10:45.:10:49.

limited ban. The last president who did this was a Democrat president,

:10:50.:10:55.

President Carter. He did it in the aftermath of the Iranian crisis.

:10:56.:10:59.

Well, given the spate of terror attacks on American territory in

:11:00.:11:02.

recent years, you could argue that he meant well. I don't agree with

:11:03.:11:10.

Donald Trump. But have people from these countries that he has banned

:11:11.:11:14.

been involved in terrorist attacks? That is the absurdity. He has not

:11:15.:11:19.

included Egypt or Pakistan. But I don't remove everyone getting in

:11:20.:11:23.

such a state about President Carter. The reality is that it is a legal

:11:24.:11:26.

thing for him to do. I don't like it. But it is not my territory. It

:11:27.:11:35.

is illegal, because they have been given a right to remain by a judge

:11:36.:11:41.

in Brooklyn and another judging Alexandra. That is a different issue

:11:42.:11:45.

for people who have already gone through the vetting. I don't agree

:11:46.:11:51.

with this. However, I don't think it's reasonable to say that Theresa

:11:52.:11:55.

May, because she wants to do a deal with Donald Trump, I don't give is

:11:56.:12:01.

reasonable to say she have to agree with each of his policies. It is

:12:02.:12:06.

nonsense. But the issue, Janan, is not whether she needs to agree with

:12:07.:12:11.

him. The question is that she will be questioned about him all the time

:12:12.:12:16.

now. And although these are matters of domestic policy, the refugee

:12:17.:12:20.

policy is international. They speak to issues that affect Britain as

:12:21.:12:26.

well, and I would suggest that she will not get away with this

:12:27.:12:30.

anonymous statement from Downing Street. People will demand a she

:12:31.:12:34.

says something on the record. She would get away with it indefinitely.

:12:35.:12:38.

These situations will recur every time Donald Trump says or does

:12:39.:12:43.

something contentious. She will be pressed to this associate her

:12:44.:12:47.

administration from his. She will probably be in a better logistical

:12:48.:12:51.

situation to do so. She has spent a big chunk of the past 72 hours in

:12:52.:12:56.

the air. She flew from Washington to Ankara, than from Ankara to London.

:12:57.:13:01.

We don't have Air Force One, we don't have those frictionless

:13:02.:13:03.

communications with the ground. She would have been incommunicado for

:13:04.:13:07.

large periods of time when this story was breaking. That doesn't

:13:08.:13:11.

excuse the stiff response when she landed and issued a statement via

:13:12.:13:15.

Downing Street. But during that delay, she did have a plausible

:13:16.:13:20.

excuse. She has also got a much more tricky geopolitical situation than

:13:21.:13:24.

many other world leaders. She has to strike a favourable trade deal with

:13:25.:13:28.

the new US president. It is all very well people saying Justin Trudeau of

:13:29.:13:32.

Canada was much more vociferous in his criticism of Donald Trump. He is

:13:33.:13:36.

already in Nafta, he is not striking a new deal. For how long, we don't

:13:37.:13:42.

know. Exactly, he's trying to stay in Nafta, but he is in a less tricky

:13:43.:13:44.

situation than she is. Now, Theresa May's was the first

:13:45.:13:48.

foreign leader to meet President Trump and the visit

:13:49.:13:51.

was seen as quite a coup for the Prime Minister,

:13:52.:13:53.

keen for a new trading relationship with the United States

:13:54.:13:55.

in the wake of Brexit. The Prime Minister congratulated

:13:56.:13:58.

the new US President for his "stunning election victory"

:13:59.:14:00.

but might not have intended to be pictured walking

:14:01.:14:02.

through the White House with him That picture of Donald Trump helping

:14:03.:14:04.

Theresa May down the steps through the White House colonnade

:14:05.:14:08.

will be the enduring image Mrs May said the President

:14:09.:14:11.

told her he was "100% behind Nato". And for her part, the Prime Minister

:14:12.:14:20.

said she would work hard to make sure other Nato countries

:14:21.:14:23.

increased their defence spending It's been announced

:14:24.:14:27.

that there will be a new trade negotiation agreement,

:14:28.:14:33.

with high-level talks The hope is that this will lead

:14:34.:14:34.

to a new trade deal between the two countries as soon as

:14:35.:14:39.

Britain leaves the EU. Mr Trump said he believed "Brexit's

:14:40.:14:44.

going to be a wonderful thing". On Russia, Theresa May made clear

:14:45.:14:47.

to Donald Trump her continued

:14:48.:14:49.

backing for sanctions. And following the controversy over

:14:50.:14:55.

the President's support for torture, Mr Trump said he would defer

:14:56.:14:57.

to his Secretary of Defense, General James Mattis, who argues

:14:58.:15:00.

that the practice doesn't work. And I'm joined now by the former

:15:01.:15:04.

Ukip leader, Nigel Farage. Do you agree with Mr Trump's

:15:05.:15:19.

decision to ban Syrian refugees indefinitely from entering the

:15:20.:15:24.

United States? I agree with the concept of democracy, a point which

:15:25.:15:28.

appears to be missed by almost all commentators including the BBC. He

:15:29.:15:32.

was elected to get tough and say he would do everything in his power to

:15:33.:15:36.

protect America from infiltration by ISIS terrorists. There are seven

:15:37.:15:44.

countries on that list. He's entitled to do this. I didn't ask if

:15:45.:15:50.

he was entitled, I asked if agree with it. I do, because if you just

:15:51.:15:56.

look at what's happening in France and Germany, if you look at Angela

:15:57.:16:00.

Merkel's policy which was to allow virtually anyone in from anywhere,

:16:01.:16:06.

look what it led to. You said in 2013 there's a responsibility on all

:16:07.:16:09.

of us in the free west to help some of those people fleeing Syria

:16:10.:16:15.

literally in fear of their lives. That's the Christian community in

:16:16.:16:19.

virtually all of those country, it is almost too late because many have

:16:20.:16:23.

been wiped out but if you are looking for a genuine definition of

:16:24.:16:28.

a refugee, going back to 1951, it is someone in direct fear of

:16:29.:16:33.

persecution of their life because of their race, religion or beliefs. But

:16:34.:16:37.

you didn't talk about only Christians, and in January 2014 you

:16:38.:16:41.

said, I seem to recall it was Ukip who started the debate on allowing

:16:42.:16:45.

Syrian refugees, you seem to be in favour of allowing proper refugees

:16:46.:16:52.

into this country. If they can be defined. Mr Trump won't let any in.

:16:53.:17:00.

He is running American policy, not British policy. Since I made those

:17:01.:17:04.

comments, we have had the Angela Merkel madness and I think Trump's

:17:05.:17:08.

policy in many ways has been shaped by what Angela Merkel did. He is

:17:09.:17:14.

fully entitled to do this, and as far as we are concerned in this

:17:15.:17:17.

country, I would like to see extreme vetting. Since 9/11 can you name any

:17:18.:17:26.

terrorist event in the United States that has involved refugees that have

:17:27.:17:31.

been allowed into the country? No, in fact the terrorist events have

:17:32.:17:36.

been US citizens radicalised. When you have a problem already, why

:17:37.:17:40.

would you wish to add to it? I would remind you that of the eight people

:17:41.:17:44.

that committed those atrocities in Paris, five of them had got into

:17:45.:17:48.

Europe posing as refugees so there is an issue here. But perhaps not

:17:49.:17:53.

for America because it has the most rigorous and lengthy screening

:17:54.:17:57.

process in the world, especially for Syrians. You have to register with

:17:58.:18:02.

the UN agency for refugees, which then recommend certain names to

:18:03.:18:07.

America, they then go through biometric screening, database

:18:08.:18:10.

screening, intelligent screenings, including four separate intelligence

:18:11.:18:21.

agencies screening you. How more rigorous would you want it to be? It

:18:22.:18:29.

is much more rigorous than we are or the rest of Europe. This is why we

:18:30.:18:33.

have elections, so voters can make choices and they voted for Donald

:18:34.:18:35.

Trump to become president and he said he would put bans in place and

:18:36.:18:42.

then move towards extreme vetting. As far as the Syrians are concerned

:18:43.:18:45.

he's made that decision but that's what he was voted in fourth. Since

:18:46.:18:51.

you know him, you have met him, you are confident of his, I'm testing

:18:52.:18:57.

you on the logic of it. Not that he's democratically elected, I'm not

:18:58.:19:01.

asking about that, I'm trying to get the case, particularly since if you

:19:02.:19:04.

take the seven countries of which the ban applies for 19 days, again,

:19:05.:19:11.

of these seven countries, its citizens have not been involved in

:19:12.:19:14.

terrorist attacks in the United States. It would be a mistake to say

:19:15.:19:18.

it is just Muslim countries because the biggest Muslim countries in the

:19:19.:19:21.

world have not been included in this. The point is they have made

:19:22.:19:25.

this assessment, they bought themselves 90 days to think about

:19:26.:19:30.

the policy. This is exactly what Trump's voters would have wanted him

:19:31.:19:37.

to do. You said the President's rhetoric on immigrants made even you

:19:38.:19:41.

feel very uncomfortable. Because he started by saying there was a total

:19:42.:19:45.

ban, then amended it to say there would be vetting. My guess is that

:19:46.:19:50.

what he will do is try to genuinely help Syrian people and he will be

:19:51.:19:54.

talking about the creation of some safe zones. Let's see. He hasn't. We

:19:55.:20:01.

will see. I suspect something like that is coming down the trap. What

:20:02.:20:07.

advice did you give to the president and his advisers ahead of Theresa

:20:08.:20:14.

May's visit? That I wanted us to talk about trade and to give the

:20:15.:20:17.

Prime Minister the impression that actually... When she has been

:20:18.:20:21.

surrounded by her whole career by civil servants and politicians who

:20:22.:20:27.

say that everything takes five years or seven years or ten years, to make

:20:28.:20:30.

it clear to the Prime Minister that if there is will, these things can

:20:31.:20:34.

be done quickly. Isn't there a danger of a British Prime Minister

:20:35.:20:38.

who has to deal with the president of the United States, to Ally

:20:39.:20:44.

herself so closely with such an unpredictable, controversial

:20:45.:20:49.

president, banning Muslims in certain ways and refugees, building

:20:50.:20:53.

a war with Mexico, threatening trade was with other countries, thinking

:20:54.:20:58.

of ending sanctions against Russia? I missing something here, what is

:20:59.:21:02.

controversial about defending the Mexican border? Bill Clinton spoke

:21:03.:21:07.

in tough terms, George Bush built six miles of fence, and because it

:21:08.:21:12.

is Donald Trump there is uproar. So you think there is no risk of the

:21:13.:21:15.

British by Minister being the best friend of this type of president? I

:21:16.:21:20.

think there is no risk in putting together a trade deal and no risk in

:21:21.:21:24.

her being the bridge between America and the rest of Nato to say to Nato

:21:25.:21:28.

members if you don't pay your 2% he is serious so on those things there

:21:29.:21:34.

is no risk at all. It was clear from her Lancaster house speech that the

:21:35.:21:39.

Brexiteers in the Government had won pretty much every argument in terms

:21:40.:21:42.

of negotiations to come out. What you want from her? She was very good

:21:43.:21:50.

as Home Secretary, Tory party conferences, the Tory press saying

:21:51.:21:54.

this was the new Thatcher and she failed. She even failed to control

:21:55.:21:58.

immigration from outside the European Union so yes, it was a good

:21:59.:22:02.

speech and for many on the Eurosceptic side of the argument, I

:22:03.:22:07.

could scarcely believe that a British Prime Minister was saying

:22:08.:22:10.

things which I had been roundly abused and vilified for. But I have

:22:11.:22:17.

a feeling we may be in for a very frustrating 2017. The mood as I can

:22:18.:22:20.

see it in Brussels is that negotiating with Britain is not a

:22:21.:22:25.

priority, they are far more worried about Dutch elections, French

:22:26.:22:28.

elections, German elections and possibly even Italian elections. I

:22:29.:22:34.

worry that by the end of this year we may not have made much progress

:22:35.:22:37.

and that's why the Trump visit suddenly things brings into focus.

:22:38.:22:43.

What if by the middle of June, for argument 's sake, the Americans say

:22:44.:22:48.

OK we reached this position with the British, compromised on the tough

:22:49.:22:51.

stuff, food standards and things like that, we are ready to sign a

:22:52.:22:57.

deal now, and Theresa May is to say actually Mr Juncker says I cannot

:22:58.:23:01.

sign this until we leave. What will they do? They cannot throw us out,

:23:02.:23:07.

we are living anyway. But everybody agrees you can talk about the deal,

:23:08.:23:11.

maybe even do the heads of agreement but you cannot sign a treaty until

:23:12.:23:16.

we have left the EU. Let me predict that at the end of this year we will

:23:17.:23:20.

find a European Union who frankly don't want to talk to us and

:23:21.:23:24.

countries around the world that want to get on and do things and that

:23:25.:23:28.

will be the big tension for Mrs May over the course of this year. If the

:23:29.:23:33.

Prime Minister is giving you everything you want on Brexit, you

:23:34.:23:37.

agree that she's trying to get from your point of view the right things.

:23:38.:23:41.

If she delivers on that and get Brexit on the terms of which you

:23:42.:23:46.

approve, what's the point of Ukip? You could argue that about any

:23:47.:23:50.

political party. If we have achieved the goal that we set out to achieve,

:23:51.:23:56.

there are right now out there 4 million people who are Ukip

:23:57.:23:59.

loyalists. They are delighted that by voting Ukip we got a referendum,

:24:00.:24:04.

they will be even happier if they seek us leave the European Union and

:24:05.:24:09.

I think there is still a gap in British politics for a party that

:24:10.:24:13.

says it as it sees it, is not afraid by political correctness and is seen

:24:14.:24:16.

to be on the side of the little people, and that's why, with the

:24:17.:24:21.

Labour Party is fundamentally split, and it really is totally split over

:24:22.:24:26.

this European question, I think Ukip is in good shape. That proposition

:24:27.:24:31.

will be put to test at the Stoke Central by-election, one of Ukip's

:24:32.:24:36.

best prospects in the country. Some people call it the capital of

:24:37.:24:40.

Brexit. Labour is in chaos over Article 50, is picked a candidate to

:24:41.:24:46.

fight Stoke Central who has described Brexit is a pile of notes.

:24:47.:24:55.

If your successor, Paul Nuttall, cannot win the Stoke by-election,

:24:56.:24:59.

there's not much hope for you, is there? I think he will. I've always

:25:00.:25:03.

been told don't make predictions but I think he will win. If you doesn't

:25:04.:25:09.

it will be tough, we will still have our 4 million loyalists, but if it

:25:10.:25:14.

does we can actually see Labour are beatable in their heartlands and

:25:15.:25:19.

Ukip will be off to the second big stage. Nigel Farage, thank you for

:25:20.:25:21.

being with us. It's just gone 11.25,

:25:22.:25:22.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:25:23.:25:25.

in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 15 minutes, I'll

:25:26.:25:27.

be talking to our political panel. First though, the Sunday

:25:28.:25:31.

Politics where you are. We've got a shorter segment

:25:32.:25:41.

for you this week, but ready to pack a lot in are our guests

:25:42.:25:48.

Clive Efford, Labour MP for Eltham, and Chris Philp, Conservative MP

:25:49.:25:56.

for Croydon South. Let's kick off with proposals

:25:57.:25:58.

to devolve more financial powers to the Mayor

:25:59.:26:01.

and the capital's boroughs. The suggestions are contained

:26:02.:26:03.

in the second report of the London Finance

:26:04.:26:07.

Commission, out this week. The first report, you may remember,

:26:08.:26:08.

happened under Mayor Boris Johnson. This one's gone further in what it's

:26:09.:26:11.

asking for: retention of income tax, maybe a share of VAT,

:26:12.:26:14.

as well as control of property taxes And it recommends looking

:26:15.:26:17.

at new taxes like a London tourism The commission chair

:26:18.:26:21.

is Tony Travers. What we're recommending that's

:26:22.:26:25.

different this time is that in the spirit of further devolution,

:26:26.:26:27.

which the Government itself has been talking about,

:26:28.:26:30.

the possibility of greater health devolution, skills and further

:26:31.:26:32.

education, possibly more transport They've launched a new news

:26:33.:27:28.

website and are considering If we want to organise

:27:29.:27:31.

a rally, if we want to give information on what's

:27:32.:27:36.

happening, we have a massive following, so we can touch a lot

:27:37.:27:41.

of people through our messaging. A recent rally in Bristol

:27:42.:27:44.

drew hundreds to And it's unfair that my generation

:27:45.:27:47.

should have to leave the EU, when we didn't get to vote

:27:48.:27:54.

on it in the first place. Whether you can overthrow

:27:55.:27:57.

Brexit itself, I don't know. We have to fight for the best

:27:58.:28:02.

conditions, I'm ready to bend

:28:03.:28:03.

anybody's hear about this. We don't know what we are

:28:04.:28:07.

letting ourselves in for. And at Bath University

:28:08.:28:11.

this week, the man who wrote Article 50 is now

:28:12.:28:15.

drawing huge crowds. And at Bath University

:28:16.:28:28.

this week, the man who wrote Article 50 is now

:28:29.:28:30.

drawing huge crowds. When he wrote it, as a senior

:28:31.:28:32.

diplomat, he never imagined And he still believes

:28:33.:28:35.

Brexit could be stopped. You can't ask 48% of the country

:28:36.:28:38.

to stay at home and shut up. Everybody who took

:28:39.:28:42.

part in the debate Some Leavers would say,

:28:43.:28:43.

this question is Now we need to discover

:28:44.:28:49.

what being outside is. Can we have our cake and eat it?

:28:50.:28:54.

We were told we could. And for many, there

:28:55.:28:57.

is a simple reason why the debates and campaigns

:28:58.:29:02.

are still so passionate. The ballot paper in

:29:03.:29:05.

the European referendum. But it turns out that interpreting

:29:06.:29:09.

the result For many Brexiteers,

:29:10.:29:12.

Leave means not just leaving the EU, but the customs union, the single

:29:13.:29:17.

market, and plenty else besides. For Remainers, Leave

:29:18.:29:24.

means an agreement to depart. It wasn't a decision

:29:25.:29:26.

about the destination. And while there is still

:29:27.:29:27.

that argument about what the result means,

:29:28.:29:29.

people will always want Let's pick up on a few of those

:29:30.:29:31.

issues and talk about them. Julie Girling, you're

:29:32.:29:40.

a Conservative MEP. Are you getting the cold shoulder

:29:41.:29:44.

over there from your We are still very much

:29:45.:29:46.

part of the mainstream. I've always been

:29:47.:29:51.

an MEP who worke hard on committee, I saw my role

:29:52.:29:54.

as making sure that European legislation is fit for purpose

:29:55.:29:57.

for the UK. You told me when I met

:29:58.:29:59.

you in Strasbourg last year that, if it went the wrong way for you,

:30:00.:30:02.

you'd have nothing much to do. Well, that's clearly not the case,

:30:03.:30:06.

because what's happened is, we have no clear view whether we're

:30:07.:30:09.

in or out of the single market. We don't know what the trade

:30:10.:30:12.

deal's going to be. So we have no idea whether we

:30:13.:30:15.

are going to be subject So I work on the basis,

:30:16.:30:18.

business as usual. We are in there until the day we

:30:19.:30:21.

leave and I carry on doing my job. You saw Lord Kerr,

:30:22.:30:25.

who is a retired senior diplomat. So, as he says, if we can't

:30:26.:30:29.

have our cake and eat it, Do you accept that

:30:30.:30:39.

might be a good idea? Well, there was a poll last week

:30:40.:30:43.

and, out of the people who have voted Remain,

:30:44.:30:46.

only 49% were unhappy And 51% said that they don't want

:30:47.:30:49.

a second referendum. And we have what were

:30:50.:30:56.

reluctant Remainers, who had listened to Project Fear,

:30:57.:31:09.

and voted Remain because of it, I just want to pick up

:31:10.:31:13.

on what Lord Kerr said. He wrote Article 50,

:31:14.:31:21.

or helped to draft it. He said, "We can change our minds

:31:22.:31:24.

and, if the benefits aren't there, "it might be sensible

:31:25.:31:27.

to think about that." I just wondered

:31:28.:31:29.

what your opinion was. We believe once Article 50 has

:31:30.:31:35.

been invoked, that's it. And so, this has

:31:36.:31:46.

a different...say on it. So, if it turns out that

:31:47.:31:48.

Project Fear, as you like to call them, were right, you don't think

:31:49.:31:51.

there should be a second chance No, I don't.

:31:52.:31:54.

We've had a referendum. We were told it would be

:31:55.:31:58.

a binding referendum. Nigel Farage told us before the

:31:59.:32:12.

referendum that if he lost he would not give up, you keep asking for

:32:13.:32:17.

another referendum. And now he expects everybody else to shut up.

:32:18.:32:20.

Are you sitting around in little huddles in Europe working out how to

:32:21.:32:25.

thwart what appears to be the will of the people? Not at all. It

:32:26.:32:31.

doesn't work like that, does it? I don't know. We had a very clear

:32:32.:32:36.

signal in the referendum. Everybody accepts that. But one question was

:32:37.:32:39.

asked. It was a very simple question. Everybody interested in

:32:40.:32:44.

what is going to happen next, and what the deal is going to be. I

:32:45.:32:47.

don't understand why people are so frightened to ask people what they

:32:48.:32:51.

think of the final deal, when it comes. What is wrong with that? It

:32:52.:32:54.

is so complex, people have the is so complex, people have the

:32:55.:33:00.

right, I think, to comment on it. It is just Brexit, not hard, soft or

:33:01.:33:04.

whatever Brexit. The people who voted to leave voted so that they

:33:05.:33:09.

could retain control over their borders. They wanted to make their

:33:10.:33:13.

own laws. They wanted to stop sending money to the EU, and they

:33:14.:33:17.

wanted to make their own free-trade agreements. None of that was on the

:33:18.:33:24.

ballot paper. There was no clear Brexit manifesto. It was made clear

:33:25.:33:28.

by Cameron, Osborne, it was made clear by Michael Gove. And they all

:33:29.:33:33.

said, if you vote to leave it means leaving the single market. We are

:33:34.:33:40.

running out of time on this discussion, but now that the courts

:33:41.:33:44.

have decided that it has to go to Parliament before Article 50 can be

:33:45.:33:47.

triggered, do you think it is right that MPs should vote on their

:33:48.:33:54.

conscience and vote against it? I believe MPs should consider very

:33:55.:33:58.

carefully. They shouldn't just vote with what their constituency voted

:33:59.:34:01.

weigh up the pros and cons, and the weigh up the pros and cons, and the

:34:02.:34:06.

most important thing for parliamentarians, they sit in our

:34:07.:34:09.

Parliament, if they wish to be sovereign, they should be asserting

:34:10.:34:14.

that on my behalf are your behalf. We have the right, in my view, to be

:34:15.:34:24.

consulted before and after the deal and Article 50. Should they vote

:34:25.:34:27.

against it? If they believe it is the right thing to do. Julia? They

:34:28.:34:34.

voted 6-1 on the referendum -- on the Referendum Bill to say that the

:34:35.:34:38.

decision to be that of the British people. So I think they should

:34:39.:34:44.

honour that,... They represent the British people. We vote for them to

:34:45.:34:50.

represent us. What is wrong, why are you so frightened of giving

:34:51.:34:53.

Parliament the opportunity of having a say in how the deal should be

:34:54.:34:56.

negotiated and saying at the end whether it is a good deal? Why are

:34:57.:35:02.

you so scared of that? If it had been Leave against Remain on a

:35:03.:35:06.

constituency basis as if it was for a general election, then Leave would

:35:07.:35:11.

have won overwhelmingly. That doesn't answer the question. It

:35:12.:35:16.

tells you that the majority of MPs are in constituencies where people

:35:17.:35:21.

voted to leave. That tells you do something about the British

:35:22.:35:25.

electrician system. -- election system. Let's have a look at the

:35:26.:35:31.

political news in the West in 60 seconds. Here is our Martin. There

:35:32.:35:42.

were protests in Bath this week as councillors finally decided where to

:35:43.:35:48.

put a new park and ride. But campaigners are still not happy.

:35:49.:35:51.

Pretty upset but I suppose it was inevitable. We didn't think we were

:35:52.:35:56.

ever going to shift the opinion of this council, try as we might. The

:35:57.:36:02.

director of GCHQ Edmonston these quitting his job. Robert Hannigan

:36:03.:36:06.

has run the government intelligence agency in Cheltenham since 2014. He

:36:07.:36:11.

says that it is for family and health reasons. This new road in

:36:12.:36:15.

Taunton could cost taxpayers ?10 million. It is two years behind

:36:16.:36:19.

schedule with Somerset County Council and its contractor locked in

:36:20.:36:23.

a legal row. The loser faces a hefty bill. Bristol West MP confirmed she

:36:24.:36:30.

would vote against triggering Article 50, in defiance of Labour

:36:31.:36:37.

Leader Jeremy Corbyn. It came after Kerry McCarthy told us last week

:36:38.:36:42.

that she would likely do the same. That was the week in 60 seconds.

:36:43.:36:47.

Again, let's return to the chat about Europe. Labour obviously

:36:48.:36:55.

having great problems over this debate. Conservative MPs have been

:36:56.:36:59.

relatively quiet. When is your party going to have its next punch-up?

:37:00.:37:06.

Everyone is distracted by what is happening in labour which is just a

:37:07.:37:11.

complete train crash. But we are not talking about labour, we are talking

:37:12.:37:16.

about you and the King -- the history of rows that the

:37:17.:37:19.

Conservative Party has had about the EU? It has always been a very toxic

:37:20.:37:24.

issue for us, it still is, but we are more disciplined and holding it

:37:25.:37:28.

together. I'm not in the House of Commons, so I'm not party to the

:37:29.:37:34.

daily chat. But we do have Conservative MPs. I live in a

:37:35.:37:38.

constituency that voted to remain. My MP is a Brexiteer. How is he

:37:39.:37:44.

going to vote taking the point that you go with your constituency? We

:37:45.:37:49.

are not without our own issues. You go with a vote of the nation. Let's

:37:50.:37:55.

talk about future trade. We know that the Prime Minister is in

:37:56.:37:57.

Washington talking to President Trump. Would you be prepared to

:37:58.:38:04.

lower standards of food production, say, in order to get a free-trade

:38:05.:38:10.

deal with the United States? No, no. Already at the moment, figures show

:38:11.:38:17.

that the United States is the biggest importer of our goods. So,

:38:18.:38:23.

if they are quite happy to import our goods to the standard they have

:38:24.:38:27.

at the moment. It is their stuff coming in. Would you take stuff of a

:38:28.:38:33.

lower standard, for example, chickens washed in chlorine, which

:38:34.:38:37.

would not pass EU regulations? Mirror. It is the same with growth

:38:38.:38:42.

hormones. They are allowed to use growth hormones to make their

:38:43.:38:48.

animals to choose more milk. So why, then, are we turning our back on the

:38:49.:38:54.

EU? Because it is easier to note -- to negotiate a bilateral trade deal

:38:55.:38:59.

with just two countries than for one country, seeing the problem with

:39:00.:39:03.

Canada, it has taken years to Canada to negotiate a trade deal because it

:39:04.:39:14.

has 28 countries. Bilateral trade deals, yes, but I'm saying it is

:39:15.:39:18.

very difficult, the EU has not been very successful, because it is not a

:39:19.:39:22.

bilateral trade deal. They have to have 28 countries in agreement. We

:39:23.:39:27.

have seen what happened with the Canadian one. Some people in Belgium

:39:28.:39:31.

decided they did not want some particular aspect of it. Do you get

:39:32.:39:36.

the sense that our EU partners are likely to punish us for wanting to

:39:37.:39:40.

leave and give us a bad deal? I would not use the word punish. I

:39:41.:39:44.

don't think there is any and tension to be punitive. What I think they

:39:45.:39:48.

are saying is, we're not going to give you a deal that makes it better

:39:49.:39:52.

and easier for you to be outside than on the inside. Even if it

:39:53.:39:57.

causes them to lose out, to lose jobs. They will make a calculation

:39:58.:40:02.

on that basis. Everybody on the Leave side is saying that we are too

:40:03.:40:07.

big a trading partner to throw away. Don't you believe it. The odds are

:40:08.:40:11.

not stacked in that direction. We are one country, they are 27. Thank

:40:12.:40:18.

you. That is it from a smack this week, thank you to my guests, Julie

:40:19.:40:28.

Girling and Doctor Julia Reed. We are shorter today because of the

:40:29.:40:30.

football, as you know. air-pollution. Thank you for being

:40:31.:40:31.

here. Welcome back and let's get back

:40:32.:40:37.

to Donald Trump's travel ban on refugees and citizens from seven

:40:38.:40:41.

mainly Muslim countries. Earlier, the Labour leader,

:40:42.:40:47.

Jeremy Corbyn, told ITV that a state visit by President Trump to the UK

:40:48.:40:50.

should not go ahead I think it would be totally wrong

:40:51.:41:03.

for him to be coming here while that situation is going on. He has to be

:41:04.:41:08.

challenged on this. So until the ban is lifted, you don't think he should

:41:09.:41:12.

come? I am not happy about him coming here until the ban is lifted.

:41:13.:41:16.

Look at what is happening with those countries. What will be the long

:41:17.:41:21.

term effect of this on the rest of the world? Is this state visit going

:41:22.:41:26.

to become a matter of huge political debate in this country? It would be

:41:27.:41:32.

anyway, but it is a temporary ban, so Jeremy Corbyn is on safe

:41:33.:41:36.

territory. It will be over by April and he is not due to come until

:41:37.:41:40.

summer. But there are three bands. There is the 90 day ban on people

:41:41.:41:45.

coming from the southern countries. There is the 120 day ban on refugees

:41:46.:41:49.

from anywhere in the world, and there is the indefinite ban on

:41:50.:41:53.

Syrian refugees. So there may still be some bans in place. But bear in

:41:54.:41:59.

mind the number of Syrian refugees and refugees from around the world

:42:00.:42:03.

that President Obama took over his eight years. There were years when

:42:04.:42:06.

it was not even up to 50 Syrian refugees that were taken since the

:42:07.:42:12.

civil war has started. This is an ongoing American policy. 12,500

:42:13.:42:17.

Syrian refugees have come in the last year. Before that, it was a

:42:18.:42:26.

hundred and sometimes under 50. But they are reasonable numbers now,

:42:27.:42:29.

although not something America couldn't absorb. Donald Trump is

:42:30.:42:35.

discovering that being a president is different from being a business

:42:36.:42:39.

man. And Jeremy Corbyn has to learn the art of leadership, having been a

:42:40.:42:42.

backbench MP, and has struggled to do it, as we are about to discuss

:42:43.:42:48.

with article 50. With this, you have to dramatise the politics of this,

:42:49.:42:52.

and this is what he has done with that statement. Most controversial

:42:53.:42:56.

ever state visit now? I would imagine so. Even regardless of any

:42:57.:43:01.

opposition from the opposition to trump's physical presence in the

:43:02.:43:06.

streets, the presence of demonstrators will be an

:43:07.:43:11.

international new story. If trump's demands for the details of the visit

:43:12.:43:15.

are quite as extreme and as picky as some of the Sunday papers have

:43:16.:43:18.

suggested, that could also be the source of controversy. What do you

:43:19.:43:22.

have in mind? Isn't he anxious that only certain members of the Royal

:43:23.:43:27.

Family turn up? He doesn't want a one-on-one with Prince Charles. Who

:43:28.:43:33.

would, though! Some people may be sympathetic on that. It is the one

:43:34.:43:40.

subject where he is in line with British opinion. Playing golf in

:43:41.:43:44.

front of the Queen may be a higher priority. We have to be realistic.

:43:45.:43:48.

Given the other people from around the world that the Queen has played

:43:49.:43:51.

host to, like the Chinese president and Saudi kings and the like, we

:43:52.:43:55.

have had a lot worse come to visit than Donald Trump. Brexit - how

:43:56.:44:01.

serious our neighbour's problems on this? Very serious, but they often

:44:02.:44:05.

are with Europe. Labour were splits when we joined in the 70s, and still

:44:06.:44:12.

won general elections, in 1974 and 1975. There were all over the place

:44:13.:44:15.

in terms of the single currency. Blair said one thing one day and the

:44:16.:44:19.

opposite the next day. Brown did the same.

:44:20.:44:25.

Brown usually set the opposite of what Blair said! They won landslide

:44:26.:44:34.

because they have the political skills to put all of the pressure on

:44:35.:44:37.

the major government, even though their position on the single

:44:38.:44:42.

currency was the same as major's. It is about with Europe the art of

:44:43.:44:47.

leadership. You have to be a political conjuror, you have to

:44:48.:44:51.

dissemble authoritative leak when you lead a divided party over

:44:52.:44:55.

Europe, and Jeremy Corbyn to his personal credit cannot dissemble,

:44:56.:44:59.

but he's not an individual person on this. He's leading a split party in

:45:00.:45:04.

danger of falling apart, and you need the skills of a political

:45:05.:45:10.

conjurer. Clearly self-evidently he's not displaying it because we

:45:11.:45:13.

are talking about the chaotic split which will manifest itself in that

:45:14.:45:18.

vote on Article 50. Labour and the SNP and the Lib Dems too I would

:45:19.:45:22.

have thought will all put amendments down to the short Article 50 piece

:45:23.:45:26.

of legislation. Do they have any chance of succeeding? No substantial

:45:27.:45:33.

world is changing amendments. I don't think Theresa May has much to

:45:34.:45:37.

worry about actually. I think if anything the reason she's pushed the

:45:38.:45:41.

legal appeal is that it helps her to have a big chunk of the media and a

:45:42.:45:45.

big chunk of public opinion worrying that the popular will of last year

:45:46.:45:51.

is in danger of being overturned and so even if it was a completely

:45:52.:45:54.

hopeless legal appeal, it generated headlines for a week that as an

:45:55.:45:59.

incumbent Prime Minister trying to execute believe vote suits you

:46:00.:46:03.

politically. I think it is a much bigger problem for Labour, we've

:46:04.:46:07.

already seen some Shadow Cabinet issues in the previous week. You

:46:08.:46:12.

have got to remember it's not just a majority of Labour MPs that want to

:46:13.:46:17.

stay in the European Union, but a majority of Labour constituencies,

:46:18.:46:22.

and a majority of labour macro voters wanted to stay as well so we

:46:23.:46:26.

have three lines of division. One amendment that might get through if

:46:27.:46:30.

it was called, and it is in the hands of the Deputy speaker who will

:46:31.:46:33.

be chairing these debates, and that will be an amendment that said

:46:34.:46:38.

regardless of how the Europeans treat our citizens in Europe, all EU

:46:39.:46:44.

citizens here will be afforded full rights to remain. That might get

:46:45.:46:50.

through. It may indeed and lots of backbench MPs would backpack. We all

:46:51.:46:56.

know there will not be mass deportations, it is not legal, it

:46:57.:47:01.

won't happen, it is simply a negotiating tactic. I agree with

:47:02.:47:05.

those who say you shouldn't be using people as a negotiating tactic, but

:47:06.:47:09.

the reality as it is the EU leaders that are doing that because it's

:47:10.:47:14.

already been offered. The remain as should be attacking the EU

:47:15.:47:18.

governments for not offering that in return. Article 50 is the easy bit

:47:19.:47:23.

for her. I agree with other members of the panel that she will get it

:47:24.:47:26.

through and the court case almost helps her by getting an easy journey

:47:27.:47:31.

through Parliament, then it gets really difficult. All of this has

:47:32.:47:35.

been a preamble and once she begins that nightmarish negotiation, there

:47:36.:47:41.

will be opportunities for a smart opposition to make quite a lot of

:47:42.:47:47.

the turmoil to come. Whether Labour are capable of that, let's wait and

:47:48.:47:53.

see. The divisions in Labour are nightmarish for them but by no means

:47:54.:47:57.

unprecedented. Arguably it was much more complicated in the early 1970s

:47:58.:48:02.

when you had Titans on either side, big ex-cabinet ministers... Tony

:48:03.:48:10.

Benn... Michael Foot, they were all at it. The fundamental issue of in

:48:11.:48:16.

or out, and they won two elections, so you have got to be really clever.

:48:17.:48:22.

But also how money more Labour MPs will resign. We shall find out this

:48:23.:48:24.

week. The Daily Politics is back

:48:25.:48:26.

tomorrow at midday and all I'll be back here

:48:27.:48:30.

on BBC one next week. Remember - if it's Sunday,

:48:31.:48:33.

it's the Sunday Politics. a free five-a-side tournament

:48:34.:49:07.

that's for everyone. For more information,

:49:08.:49:21.

go to the Get Inspired website.

:49:22.:49:25.

Andrew Neil and David Garmston are joined by Nigel Farage, MEP. The Political Panel consists of Janan Ganesh of the Financial Times, Julia Hartley-Brewer of talkRADIO and journalist Steve Richards.